Historic Washington National Cathedral To Perform Same Sex Weddings

Washington National Cathedral | Gay Marriage.

The historic Washington National Cathedral is now a part of the apostasy of the Christian Church.

 

“Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” – Titus 1:15-16.

Historic American landmark, Washington National Cathedral, the church used for Presidential inauguration services and Presidential funerals since the 1800s, will now perform same-sex weddings. The decision, made by the Episcopal denomination in Washington D.C, reflects the alarming trend of churches that have abandoned Biblical Christianity in favor of person-made doctrines, even if they go against the Word of God. This falling away from sound Christian doctrine, called the Apostasy in the Bible, was prophesied to occur as the end times approached.

As the news reports stated:

Cathedral officials tell The Associated Press the church will be among the first Episcopal congregations to implement a new rite of marriage for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender members. The church will announce its new policy Wednesday.
As the nation’s most prominent church, the decision carries huge symbolism. The 106-year-old cathedral has long been a spiritual center for the nation, hosting presidential inaugural services and funerals for Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford. It draws hundreds of thousands of visitors.
In light of the legality of same-sex marriage in the District of Columbia and now Maryland, the Rt. Rev. Mariann Edgar Budde, the Episcopal bishop of Washington, decided in December to allow an expansion of the Christian marriage sacrament. The diocese covers the district and four counties in Maryland. The change is allowed under a “local option” granted by the church’s General Convention, church leaders said. Each priest in the diocese can then decide whether to perform same-sex unions.
The Very Rev. Gary Hall, the cathedral’s dean, said performing same-sex marriages is an opportunity to break down barriers and build a more inclusive community “that reflects the diversity of God’s world.”
“I read the Bible as seriously as fundamentalists do,” Hall told the AP. “And my reading of the Bible leads me to want to do this because I think it’s being faithful to the kind of community that Jesus would have us be.” (source).

The statements by both Rt. Rev Budde and Rev. Hall reflect a complete lack of understanding of Biblical Christianity. Believers are to be servants to God, who is Lord. We have no right nor authority to change anything the Bible says. And in the Bible, homosexuality is a sin and marriage is to be between a man and a woman. Jesus Christ defined marriage in Scripture quoting the book of Genesis: “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?” – Matthew 19:4-5.

 
In order to remove any confusion, Jesus defined marriage by going back to the Garden of Eden and defining by God’s original intention when the first two people were created on Earth, showing nothing had changed. And yet, despite the Bible’s commands, the Episcopal church in Washington D.C. saw fit to “expand” the “marriage sacrament.”

 
Jesus also ends the book of Revelation, the final book in the Bible, with a warning about changing its words:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. – Revelation 22:18-19.

This is how seriously the Son of God takes altering the words of the Bible. For Rev. Budde to change the church’s definition of marriage because the local governments have done so, shows more respect for the desires of the unsaved world than for the will of God. Additionally, Rev. Hall’s comments that he reads the Bible “as fundamentalists do” but thinks that performing same-sex and transgender marriages is being “faithful” to Jesus is nothing but sinful rebellion out of desire to appease society, even if it means doing evil in the church.

 

The Apostasy: When God’s Preachers Ignore His Word

Right Reverend Mariam Edgar Budde | Gay Marriage

The Rt. Rev. Mariam Edgar Budde, center, wearing a mitre of Dagon, has approved of gay marriage in her church based on her reading of the Bible.

Unfortunately, much of this rebellion is very similar to ancient Israel in the days before the Babylonian invasion and eventual enslaving of most of the nation of Judah, a judgment sent by God against Israel for their repeated spiritual adultery. At this point in Israel’s history (ca. 600 BC), the people had fallen deep into sinful rebellion against God, mixing their Jewish religion with the pagan practices of their neighboring nations. There was no longer a respect for God’s holiness – separation from the ways of the sinful world to live for The Lord and be a shining example and testimony to the rest of the world. Instead, the worship of false gods and demons like Baal was being practiced. Parents were sacrificing their own children to appease satanic spirits. And where did God place a great deal of the blame? On the spiritual leaders of Israel at that time:

They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.  Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my soul be avenged on such a nation as this? A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land; The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof? – Jeremiah 5:29-31.

Notice the charges God lays on the sinful, rebellious spiritual leaders. Just as many apostate pastors are doing today, they “overpass the deeds of the wicked.” In an effort to appease the unbelieving world so they can live well, these churches have accommodated sinful behavior and left the Gospel of Jesus Christ far behind. Preachers such as Reverends Budde and Hall are spreading false teachings in their churches and the unsaved world loves it. But what they do not realize is that they are incurring the wrath of God. The Lord is not going to sit by idly and overlook what churches such as National Cathedral do.
The Lord, through the Prophet Jeremiah continued to plead with the Israelites in Chapter 6:

For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. They [false prophets] have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken. Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them. Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it. – Jeremiah 6:14-19.

Once again, God sends repeated warnings to the church, to pastors who have lost their way, and to the nation, to repent of their sin. The Bible implores Pastors who have ignored parts of Scripture to stop believing in a God of their own creation, that would approve of their changing of the Bible, and believe in the True and Living God, whose Word stands forever.

President Obama Washington national Cathedral Same Sex marriage

President Obama at the 2013 Inauguration Prayer Service at Washington National Cathedral.

 

This is a serious matter. President Barak Obama, dubbed the nation’s “First Gay President” for his unprecedented and outspoken advocacy for gays and transgender people, has used his office to give incredible momentum to the gay rights movement. Evangelical Pastor Louis Giglio, who was originally scheduled to give the invocation at the 2013 Inauguration Prayer Service, stepped down once the White House learned of a sermon he gave 15 years ago calling homosexuality a sin. Giglio was replaced by gay-affirming Pastor Louis Leon.  While politicians are free to do and say what they choose, the pressure has now shifted to the Christian church to conform to their desires. This is why it is time more than ever to “hearken” to God’s warnings and stand for the Word of God as written in the Bible. Even if all 50 American states legalize gay marriage, it is ultimately irrelevant to the faith a Christian has in their heart and professes with their mouth. So everyone who claims to believe in Jesus will be held accountable for whether they believe or rebel against the Words of The Lord.

Pray for repentance in National Cathedral Church and for their leadership to seek “the old path” and listen to God over the world. And pray for the faith of Christian pastors worldwide, to believe God and instead of leading people into spiritual error, to point them to God’s truth so that they can have eternal life. If a pastor does not even acknowledge homosexuality as a sin, how can he ever preach the need for forgiveness? Jesus Christ said a physician comes to heal the sick. If false pastors and reverends continue to say “peace, peace” when there is none, many people will end up on the wrong side of God’s judgment. Pray for Biblical faith to return to America’s churches.

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Comments

  1. So sad, so many people are blinded and deceived by the lies of the devil :(

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  2. B&E,

    Your commentary stated the following:

    “Even if all 50 American states legalize gay marriage, it is ultimately irrelevant to the faith a Christian has in their heart and professes with their mouth. So everyone who claims to believe in Jesus will be held accountable for whether they believe or rebel against the Words of The Lord.”

    These are conflciting veiwpoints. How can gay marriage be ‘irrelevant’ if you say that Christ will hold us “accountable” for whether we follow his teachings or reject them?.

    For nearly 10 years, I was close friends with a gay couple, until I moved out of state. They were regular folks like you or me. And even before getting to know them, I struggled with my beliefs about how Christians should deal with homosexuals. I don’t believe gays should be rounded up & imprisoned — they are human beings & deserve the same freedoms as anyone else. I also know that “reorientation programs” like Spatula don’t work. They may succeed in coercing a person into pretending their homosexuality has been ‘healed’. They may even convince someone to marry & have children in order to make themselves look as though they’re straight. But in their heart of hearts, their attraction to members of the same sex will still be there. And in God’s eyes, our thoughts, the desire itself, is counted as sin even when we abstain from a sinful act.

    There are gays in the world who were raised in strong, intact Christian families, brought up in the church, who have never been physically or sexually abused or otherwise traumatized as children. And when adolescence began & they realized they were not like other children, that the person they have a crush on was of the same sex, they became terrified. As soon as they understood what it meant to be gay, before so much as kissing another boy or girl, they repented of it begged God to fix them, heal them, change them so they would be ‘normal’, as God meant humans to be. I have seen these young people tell their anguished stories of begging God, for years, to ‘fix’, them, to heal them of homosexuality. Yet despite their faith & their prayers, the God who made them, who controls every aspect of His creation, did not fix or change them

    Even those who were strong enough to refuse to act on their homosexual impulses & remaind celibate — because they knew homosexuality is “an abomination” to the Lord — even they knew that their desire for members of the same sex was not corrected by their prayers to God for ‘healing’. And no — for the record, I do NOT believe that someone who has never been involved in the occult can end up gay due to an evil spirit or a generational curse. Whether it’s nature, nurture or some combination of the two, I can’t explain why some people are born gay. However God may explain it, He choose not to provide that info in the scriptures.

    And yes I say ‘born gay’ because even though children aren’t sexual beings, I believe our future sexual orientation is fixed at birth. If nothing traumatic happens to us to alter that orientation, we grow up with an attraction to one gender or the other, based on how we were programmed internally. Short of some sort of childhood trauma, nothing could have ‘turned’ me into a lesbian because I have always been attracted to males, period. I also know that prayer won’t fix or cure homosexuality any more than it will fix Down’s syndrome or a cleft palate. No parent would waste their time praying for a child to be healed of those conditions, yet thousands still pray for their children to be healed of homosexuality.

    So how are we supposed to behave towards gays in this world? In our families? I cannot support gay marriage because I know it’s ungodly & I will not condemn myself in the things that I approve of. I’m not in favor of gay couples adopting children either, but it is legal in several states. What does a Christian do if they own a restaurant & a gay couple wants to rent it out for their wedding reception? Or if you own an bed & breakfast (where you allow paying guests to stay in your home on a short-term basis) & refuse to allow a gay couple to stay there? Refusing such requests on the grounds of religious objections to gay marriage means Christians can be sued for discrimination Such lawsuits will become more frequent as gay marriage becomes legal in more states.

    I believe that Christians should be able to work alongside & peacefully coexist with gays just as we do with Muslims, Wiccans, Catholics, athiests, etc. But when gays are granted rights that conflict with Christian values (despite the fact that I voted against such changes when there was a referendum), what are we to do? Does God expect us to lose our businesses, even our homes, to lawyers fees & court costs in order to fight for what we believe is right?

    It’s easy to quote scripture & claim that everything will work out becasue “God is for us”. An adult who is single can certainly choose to end up homeless rather than go against their Christian values. But is it right for a parent to have their child end up living in a cardboard box because they refused to go against their Christian values?

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    • Hey RC,

      Thanks for some very good questions. I will quote you and then respond:

      “Even if all 50 American states legalize gay marriage, it is ultimately irrelevant to the faith a Christian has in their heart and professes with their mouth. So everyone who claims to believe in Jesus will be held accountable for whether they believe or rebel against the Words of The Lord.”

      These are conflciting veiwpoints. How can gay marriage be ‘irrelevant’ if you say that Christ will hold us “accountable” for whether we follow his teachings or reject them?.

      What I meant is that a Bible-believing Christian should acknowledge homosexuality as a sin EVEN IF the government says gay marriage is legal. The state changing laws does not affect our theology. In the case of Washington National Cathedral, it was the legalization of gay marriage that led to the church “revising” its view on homosexuality. I hope that clarifies what I mean. We cannot be held responsible for what a government chooses to do. But we are certainly responsible for what we personally believe.

      And even before getting to know them, I struggled with my beliefs about how Christians should deal with homosexuals. I don’t believe gays should be rounded up & imprisoned — they are human beings & deserve the same freedoms as anyone else. I also know that “reorientation programs” like Spatula don’t work. They may succeed in coercing a person into pretending their homosexuality has been ‘healed’. They may even convince someone to marry & have children in order to make themselves look as though they’re straight. But in their heart of hearts, their attraction to members of the same sex will still be there. And in God’s eyes, our thoughts, the desire itself, is counted as sin even when we abstain from a sinful act.

      Who is suggesting gays should be “rounded up & imprisoned”?? Nowhere in any article on this site is there any language of the sort. As for “deserving freedoms”, again this site has never said they don’t. Marriage from a political standpoint, is not open to everyone. A grown man cannot obtain a license to marry his grandmother. Even though they are both consenting adults. But that is really besides the point. This article is not concerned with politics. It is concerned with The Word of God. Homosexuality is sin. That will never change in the Bible. That’s why the article is focusing on the Pastors at the church and does not even mention any of the local politicians who changed the law. And as a Christian, it is about whether or not you believe the Word of God, not about “freedoms” and “laws.” You claim that people cannot overcome homosexual desires. But there are former gay people who say they have. So who are you to say it’s not possible? The Bible says with regards to sinful temptation:

      “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

      So again the question is, do you believe God or what your eyes and your heart tell you?

      Even if someone is saved and does not lose their homosexual desires, that is just a part of the human condition. Every true, born again Christian will still have sinful desires in their Earthly flesh (this author included) that we must battle with every day. It does not have to be sexual. It can be to lie, steal, blaspheme, racist thoughts and many, many more. We will never be fully “cured” until we have been glorified in our resurrected, Heavenly bodies. This is why we are told in Scripture to “crucify the flesh and the lusts thereof.” We are waging a battle between the spirit and flesh constantly. But through the Holy Spirit and our faith in The Lord Jesus Christ we can overcome and be led by the spirit rather than the carnal mind.

      “And yes I say ‘born gay’ because even though children aren’t sexual beings, I believe our future sexual orientation is fixed at birth.”

      There is absolutely no evidence of homosexuality being genetic and passed through DNA. There is no gay gene. And the Bible explains homosexuality in Romans 1. Again, it comes down to..who are you going to believe?

      What does a Christian do if they own a restaurant & a gay couple wants to rent it out for their wedding reception? Or if you own an bed & breakfast (where you allow paying guests to stay in your home on a short-term basis) & refuse to allow a gay couple to stay there? Refusing such requests on the grounds of religious objections to gay marriage means Christians can be sued for discrimination Such lawsuits will become more frequent as gay marriage becomes legal in more states.

      I believe that Christians should be able to work alongside & peacefully coexist with gays just as we do with Muslims, Wiccans, Catholics, athiests, etc. But when gays are granted rights that conflict with Christian values (despite the fact that I voted against such changes when there was a referendum), what are we to do? Does God expect us to lose our businesses, even our homes, to lawyers fees & court costs in order to fight for what we believe is right?

      ” Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? 30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. 31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.” – 2 Corinthians 11:24-31.

      That is the Apostle Paul’s testimony. And he said if he would glory, he would glory in his “infirmities”, the pain he suffered for the cause of Our Lord Jesus Christ. This is Christianity. We have no promises in this present world, because it is not Christ’s Kingdom. In fact, we are promised tribulation. All those who live Godly shall suffer persecution (2 Timothy 3:12). There are Christians in labor camps, being tortured, with no hope of even seeing their families, just for their faith in Jesus Christ. 11 of the 12 disciples were executed for their faith. There are many stories of missionaries who suffered death, disease and abuse trying to bring the light of the Gospel. So if a Christian suffers a lawsuit for their faith, it is well. Western society is rapidly moving towards making bible-belief equivalent with bigotry. So this could lead to financial losses for some Christians. But in light of the heritage of the Christian faith where others before us risked life and limb to proclaim the name of Jesus, should we shudder and hide now? God forbid. Pray for faith to stand for what you believe and share it with love and compassion for others. We should treat all people with respect and kindness. But that does not mean we have to accommodate their sin or approve of it. And if we suffer for it, we count the glory of it to God.

      “Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
      13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.”
      1 Peter 4:12-14.

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      • Thanks B&E for reminding me that as Christians, we must accept the hardships along with the blessings that come our way.

        BTW, I was not saying that there’s a ‘gay gene’ — I don’t believe that, specifically. But I also don’t believe a person’s sexual orientation can be changed anymore than their height can be changed. Nobody can control how tall they are. The factors that determine height are invisibly encoded within our DNA, even though there’s no specific gene that says this person will be 6 ft. tall, this one will be 5 ft.10 in.tall, etc. I think sexual orientation works in a similar way, for some people. But science can’t explain why or how. Gays can certainly accept Christ & choose to remain celebate, but that doesn’t change who they’re attracted to.

        I don’t know if you’re a pastor or not, B&E. But when someone tells you that they knew they were ‘different’ since they were 6 or 7 yrs. old, then later they learned the correct term & realized that they were gay, what do you say to them?

        Romans 1 doesn’t offer an explanation for that. Rom. 1: 20-27 refers to adults who “although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God”, so He gave them up to ‘uncleanness’ & ‘vile passions’. How can that apply to a child whose only ‘sin’ was that he hated sports & loved Barbie dolls & ballet? Sure, he was clearly effiminate at a young age, but there are no ‘vile passions’ for him to act on yet.
        I’d be horrified if that were my son, but beyond praying for him, I’d have no clue whatto do! (And trust me, this is not something I’m bringing up just to be argumentative:
        [url=http://thegrio.com/2010/10/15/family-embraces-5-year-old-son-who-wants-to-be-a-princess/url])

        Between childhood & adolescense, why doesn’t God fix or change whatever it is within a young boy or girl that gives them a homosexual orientation, before they became old enough to act on it?

        When gays have asked me to explain how God creates people who are gay or allows someone to have a homosexual orientation, I’ve always failed in witnessing to them because I can’t find anything in the scriptures that explains it! When I’ve tried to tell them that God doesn’t ’cause’ or ‘allow’ homosexuality, that it’s a biological defect like being born with a cleft palate, then they ask me why God condemns them for being gay when He doesn’t condemn people with cleft palates? And yes, I explain that a cleft palate doesn’t lead to sexual sins, which God always condemns. But I can’t find any scriptures that deal with how birth defects happen in the first place.

        I know the scriptures don’t cover everything we encounter in life. But I can’t witness about anything unless I’ve got God’s word to back me up. How does Romans 1 explain how people who knew as children that they were gay got written off by God to follow their ‘uncleaness’ because of a defect they had no control over??

        – RC

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        • Sorry, tried to make a link but it didn’t work! The URL for the Princess Boy story is:

          http://thegrio.com/2010/10/15/family-embraces-5-year-old-son-who-wants-to-be-a-princess

          Maybe I’m over-reacting, but my heart sank when I saw that boy prancing around on tv in a tutu (& this was more than 2 yrs. ago). I know his parents think they are being supportive by letting thim dress & act that way, but to my mind, tthat kid is a gay-in-training. His mom wrote a book about the whole thing started a websigte & created a entire ‘acceptance movement’ to support him. And of course, the LBGT community fawns over him.

          I can’t find any current stories about Dyson, so hopefully he’s outgrown this mess. But all I kept thinking of was Proverbs 22:6: “Train up a child in the way he should go & when he is old, he will not depart from it.”

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        • Hi RC,

          I will try to address some more of your questions in this post:

          “I don’t believe that, specifically. But I also don’t believe a person’s sexual orientation can be changed anymore than their height can be changed.

          Once again, I am a little confused that when homosexuals says they change their sexuality you seem to be giving that 100% respect and credibility but dismiss the testimony of former gays who have left the homosexual lifestyle. Are you saying that ex-gays are lying? I want to share some testimonies from people with you just to consider:

          Larrell’s testimony on the 2praisegod website.

          Cameron Brook’s testimony

          I don’t know if you’re a pastor or not, B&E. But when someone tells you that they knew they were ‘different’ since they were 6 or 7 yrs. old, then later they learned the correct term & realized that they were gay, what do you say to them?

          Romans 1 doesn’t offer an explanation for that. Rom. 1: 20-27 refers to adults who “although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God”, so He gave them up to ‘uncleanness’ & ‘vile passions’. How can that apply to a child whose only ‘sin’ was that he hated sports & loved Barbie dolls & ballet? Sure, he was clearly effiminate at a young age, but there are no ‘vile passions’ for him to act on yet.

          Romans 1 one still applies because it shows that homosexuality is a sin and not a biological or genetic defect. But the Bible gives even more verses to address your specific point.

          ” Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.” – Psalm 51:5.

          “The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.” – Psalm 58:3.

          And partciularly:

          ” The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” – Jeremiah 17:9.

          This is human nature. We are born with a sin nature. We are born in flesh bodies that are at war with God. So just because someone, even a child “feels in their heart” they are a girl in a boy’s body, that does not make it natural or God-ordained. The heart is deceitful above all things. “Following your heart” is basically instructing someone to follow Satan to damnation. So I would really consider these verses when thinking about humanity. We are not good. We are sinners who sin every day. But by God’s grace we can be redeemed. Trying to redeem someone’s behavior outside of God’s Word is just making a new religion.

          “Between childhood & adolescense, why doesn’t God fix or change whatever it is within a young boy or girl that gives them a homosexual orientation, before they became old enough to act on it? “

          What about fixing the thing in the boy or girl that makes them lie, steal, blaspheme, worship false idols, curse, harbor racist feelings, and many other evil acts? It’s all sin. So again, you have to ask yourself, do you truly believe homosexuality is sin? A birth defect is not sin. Sin starts in the heart. God has offered the solution for all these things: salvation in Jesus Christ. And whether or not a person overcomes a sin, may or may not happen in this life, but they can be assured of forgiveness and a new spirit that will seek to please God and conquer that sin.

          I would submit that the Bible does answer every issue we are going to face in life. And while the explanation may not be what someone wants to hear, it is still God’s truth nonetheless. The New Age movement and many other religions preach that people are inherently good and become even better and achieve godhood. Christianity says we are inherently evil and can be forgiven and redeemed through Christ Jesus. This is the Gospel message. And when sharing the Gospel with someone you do not have to focus on one particular sin in their life. You can speak about sin in general. And if they can agree that they have violated God’s laws then they can at least understand God’s impending judgment and the need for forgiveness. I hope that helps and of course if you have more questions please feel free to ask. God bless.

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  3. Hali Starr says:

    In college I studied “The Psychology of Gays and Lesbians”. It was the best, most informative subject I ever studied. I recommend everyone to take that class. Gays and Lesbians are born with their sexual orientation. God created them that way. I did a thesis on this and found evidence that their brain chemistry is different than heterosexuals.

    We had many gays come to our class and lecture that they would never choose such a hard lifestyle. They were always how they were since childhood. They suffered much in their lives because of people judging and condemning them. Many young people commit suicide because they cannot change who they are……so QUIT JUDGING!!!! God loves them unconditionally, so should you!

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  4. Hali Starr,

    With all due respect, I finished college a long time ago & then as now, my fate is not beholden to any professor or popular doctrine. The fate of my soul belongs to Almighty God because I will have to account to Him for how I lived my life in this world. And as a FOLLOWER of Christ — not mere a Fan — I am obligated to obey God’s teachings & share His doctrines as they are written in God’s scriptures, the Holy Bible. Satan & his agents (& they are everywhere) exist only to trick humans into rejecting God through lies & deceptions, by twisting the scriptures so people end up believing a lie instead of the truth. If you were a Follower of Christ, you would know better than to fall for that okey-doke about gays from some college class.

    Yes, God is a loving & forgiving God — but those are NOT the only aspects of who God is. He is the great Creator & also the ultimate destroyer because all of creation belongs to Him.

    God is also our Father & like any good parent, God loves us & takes responsibility for teaching us how to live in the world. A human father who loves his child won’t let her run out in the middle of traffic, or play with matches, or eat rat poison — those things would harm or even kill a child. Human parents don’t let their child grow up illiterate — they provide you with an education so you’ll know how to read & write & be able to function in the world. All decent parents set limits & boundaries for their children by teaching them right from wrong — & punishing them for disobedient behavior. And your heavenly Father is no different.

    God is the first & ultimate parent to all human beings. He made us – males & female – in His image & likeness. (Genesis 1: 27). He teaches us right from wrong based on the lessons expressed in His scriptures. He gave us the Bible as a handbook for life on earth. As children grow up, they start to test limits & boundaries by disobeying their parents, by following what their ‘friends’ tell them they should do or not do. Adults do the same thing by disobeying God. Disobedience = transgression of God’s Laws = SIN. And ultimately, God punishes sin with death.

    Yes, God is gracious & merciful, He forgives us if we confess our sins & sincerely repent of them. But those who think they are smarter than God, who refuse to accept the truth of God’s scriptures — even those who have been mislead into accepting that wrong is right because they don’t go to God in prayer for guidance & study His word for wisdom — they will end up paying for their sins by being utterly destroyed.

    I know it sounds corny, but when you don’t have Christ in your heart, you cannot understand spiritual things. Your mind simply won’t accept & believe the teachings of God if you aren’t Saved. It’s like hearing something in a foreign language that you’ve never studied — you just don’t get it. And if you’re only a Fan of Christ but not a Follower, you will treat the Bible like a Chinese men — you pick one thing from this section, another verse from that section, based on whatever you feel like believing at that moment. Because you have no respect for or understanding of God’s word.

    Everyone is free to accept or reject Christ of their own accord. But the Bible makes it clear, repeatedly, that you cannot worship God any old way you want & expect Christ to claim you as one of His own.

    “There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.” – Proverbs 14:12
    That verse is so important in God’s mind that He repeated it again, verbatim, just 2 chapters later in Proverbs 16:25.

    “Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. ***Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.***When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of
    it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. (John 8:41-45)

    And yes, God has every right to destroy us for disobedience because all souls belongs to Him! You did not make yourself. You did not evolve from apes. God Made you. So God has the right to destroy humans because God made us, along with everything else in the universe.

    “Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. – Ezekiel 18: 4

    God in His infinite knowledge & wisdom warns that in the last days (meaning this current era on earth), the world will go crazy because so many are rejecting God & choosing to do their own thing & go their own way.

    “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!” – Isaiah 5:20

    “This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers [think of most of the rappers you see in videos today],
    disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good [notice how Christians are attacked routinely online & in the media for speaking out against sin in any form] “Traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” – 2 Timothy 3:1-6.

    Look, I don’t claim to have all the answers re: gays — that’s why I posted here in the first place. Science has NEVER proven that there’s a ‘gay gene’ or any biological explanation for why some people are gay. But my inability to explain homosexuality doesn’t mean I get to pretend that’s it’s okay in God’s eyes. The scriptures make it crystal clear that God hates homosexuality (the same way that he hates adultery, fornication & all sexual sins).

    “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” – 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

    If you’re so quick to believe what you read in books Halli, try reading the Bible for yourself. (All scriptures quoted here were from the New King James Version).

    Peace & Blessings,

    – RC

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  5. ChurchMuzic says:

    Words and their meanings. The powers that be took the word Gay which meant happy, to define/classify homosexuals. Just as sinners cling to the word Christian to define/glorify themselves. Christians meaning “follower of Christ”. Jesus said Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, “follow me.” Who out of us has done this? Were so blinded were suckered into looking upon a cross with admiration. A death tool used by the State to execute people…But I ask you…If Jesus was sentence to death by hanging…Will there be a Noose in and on top of Churches? and hung in peoples homes and around their necks? I remember I came to a point I got tired of lying to GOD when I pray… because I broke promises. So the spirit lead me to the scripture on how to pray, “Father, hollowed be thy name>… but what was said before that also captivated me..”But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking>…. And this is what sinners do with scriptures….speak them in abundance. Then he said ” And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward>… Its like the more scriptures people are able to recite, the more Proud they are of themselves…However as Jesus said…GOD knows our heart. And we are sinners…. I respect this page and the purpose it has..keep educating…but as a sinner I wish to quote the Brother who was killed along side Jesus… we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

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    • Hi ChurchMuzic,

      Thanks very much for your comment. I do disagree however and wanted to make several remarks:

      1. “Christians” – The name Christian actually means “little Christ” and although it was initially a slur, embodies what being a Christian is all about. We are to conform ourselves to the image of Jesus Christ The Savior. And being that Jesus, who is The Word of God, defines marriage as between a man and a woman, and proclaims homosexuality to be a sin, so should any “little Christ.” Christianity is about surrendering our own ego, pride and “right thinking” to deny ourselves and follow Christ’s words and commands, so that He can live through us.

      2.

      “Jesus said Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, “follow me.” Who out of us has done this? ”

      Jesus said this to a man who was trying to earn his way to Heaven, through his good works. The point Jesus was making was that it is impossible to do so. We receive eternal life by faith. The belief in our heart that Jesus Christ died for our sins, took the punishment of hell and wrath that we rightfully deserve and rose from the grave on the third day, earning eternal life for those who trust and believe in Him. So we do not have to sell anything to get to Heaven. We have to believe. And this whole issue of homosexuality just comes down to belief. Either you believe God or you believe your own heart, or the President or Oprah or a particular celebrity who says otherwise.

      3.

      ” I remember I came to a point I got tired of lying to GOD when I pray… because I broke promises. So the spirit lead me to the scripture on how to pray, “Father, hollowed be thy name>… but what was said before that also captivated me..”But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking>…. And this is what sinners do with scriptures….speak them in abundance. Then he said ” And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward>… Its like the more scriptures people are able to recite, the more Proud they are of themselves…”

      IN Jesus model prayer, he made the point of saying “forgive us our tresspasses..” In other words, it is assumed that we are going to sin, but we are to repent right afterwards. So you should never get tired of “lying to God” because you should not be lying in the first place. We do not have to make oaths and promises to God. God makes the promises and we have to believe them. Again it all just comes back to faith. Jesus said whosoever believeth on Him “hath eternal life.” Again, the question I would raise is: do you believe the Bible? Do you believe that homosexuality is a sin? It seems to me this is where the conflict really lies. Trying to criticize others for quoting scripture won’t evade that issue. Ironically, there are two people in the article who are clearly and openly rebelling against Scripture and you do not even make mention of it. How do you feel about them?

      I know that this is a challenging issue, but I would encourage you to trust in God. If you have not read this article, I would strongly encourage you to.

      Is it okay to be Christian and Gay?

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      • ChurchMuzic says:

        Quick story, was getting my car fix by an alley mechanic(alley mechanic meaning a person with street knowledge who fix on cars @ a low cost) which is my cost because my $ is funny :) Anyway, he referred me to a shop i.e a mechanic certified with degrees not to mention his own shop; to do a job that he “the alley mechanic” didn’t have the tools to do, the shop mechanic in talking with me quickly insulted the alley mechanic(all of them) stating they lack education unlike him as he pointed to his degrees on his wall. However 5 hours later after finishing the job he calls me to tell me that he can’t figure out what’s wrong with my car.?? I’m upset cause I’m back at square one and Ticked off! Because he’s wanting me to pay him in full, which lead to him and I getting into an argument. So I called the alley mechanic up who referred me. He came to the shop, calmed us down and Discovered… what was wrong with the car. smh…Education, Knowledge and Wisdom… how do you gain them all …The alley mechanic who referred my business to this man, aspires to be where the shop mechanic is @, but the shop mechanic who condemned and execrated the alley mechanic would Never want to walk in his shoes…. But who out of the 2 was the glory given?

        Is it okay to be Christian and Gay you ask…I’ll get to that shortly. And when asking a question it must be asked properly or I am answering to what? Words and their meanings. You say “The name Christian mean “little Christ” and although it was initially a slur, embodies what being a Christian is all about. We are to conform ourselves to the image of Jesus Christ The Savior”. Listen to that, now what does it mean…
        Now although their mother and father didn’t give them these names, I’ve heard of Lil John, lil bowwow even Lil wayne..but Lil christ? You mention it was initially a “slur” slur means “To pronounce indistinctly, To talk about disparagingly or insultingly, To pass over lightly or carelessly; treat without due consideration…That’s deep… And in that definition it sounds like what a hating evil devil will do when calling some1 out of their name when they belong or are wanting to belong to something or someone that “it” hates. But this is what millions of people embrace… disparagingly or insultingly word and embodies it to Jesus! You mention we are to conform to the “image” of Christ. Image means, A 1. representation of the “external” “physical” form of a person or THING in sculpture, painting, etc i.e. The painting of Jesus, he’s white, black, Mexican?? silly. “The Cross” which you had no rebuttal…The death penalty tool used in that day to kill i.e. Death! And folks admire “it”. People of status laugh at these kids with these enormous rims on their cars. Imagine seeing some1 walking around with an electric chair around their neck saying it represents GOD! Death Row Records maybe, but not GOD. However time goes on and the words change thru additions and subtractions like “image” conveniently embodied, mental representation, idea so forth which brings us to the word Gay. Which if you are over 35, you should know that Gay wasn’t defined in the dictionary as being a homosexual. It meant Happy! :) Which I am most of the time, but in this time shouting I’m gay will give the wrong impression, And I don’t want that…however that’s how fast the “words” and their meaning are being manipulated. They are doing it with the bible every day. Do I think being homosexual is a sin. Yes! But knowing it and excusing is totally different. So let us remove the title the sin was given and call it what it is…A sin…Now comes the question you pose to me, which I now ask you. Is it okay being a Christian and a sinner??? My GOD… All the glory is his. Education, knowledge and wisdom… where, when and if they meet us in our lifetime…I don’t mean to insult Christians as people but if knowing what it mean, Which like you BandE I looked up its origin and how can you ignore how it originated. So say they change a word in the bible how do we know if we don’t know what the words means.. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
        Regarding homosexuals, anyone with sense can see their being played like a black exploitation film, to set a trend, a culture and ultimately an agenda via Tv, music, government i.e. corporations/$$ the root of the evil. Because as you mentioned BandE, we don’t have to sell our “possessions” possessions meaning 1.The state of having, owning, or controlling something. Let GOD control “ALL” aspects of our lives?..whoa.. now that’s being a little fanatic! So instead the $/status quo does… that’s what I see in the church, the congregation who goes to this same building like it’s a club house. The pastor who wouldn’t Dare! give up that possession called a church and go out to the highways and hedges…because who wants to be an alley mechanic. Faith is pure Love, not part time love. And us ‘sinners” my choice word oppose to nonbeliever.. got bills to pay..so off to our corporate workplace, “actually their corporate workplace” we go. Pay Our bills, feed Our children, just we,we,we…But Jesus said to give up your possession. And a Man don’t say something unless he means it, not a real one @ least,its just unfortunate that less of a man would think he said it for fun. I tell you this and for those who don’t get caught up in the rapture “which is go be a gang of people who think they are because they are saved..”ed” past tense, elementary Watson. GOD says only he who endures to the end shall be saved meaning at your end only then do it become past tense. And you sure want be alive to tell the living that you are…so if your left behind with purpose here. Leaving behind your possession will be exactly what you will have to do. Walk out on faith FORREAL! Go out like sheep amongst wolves and stand boldly on the word of GOD that will not be in a book, because that devil is getting rid of it thru manipulation gradually day by day. And like Jesus and his disciples and those before them, without that book just the word of GOD will you have to go out there, against weapons and devils with technologies and hate you had no clue existed….-or- take the mark of the beast. Because you’re not going to have a “corporate job” without it, want be able to go to Mickey D’s for a bigmac or walmart for scotts tissue without it…
        Go to their school, travel via Bus, car or plane without it…and yet here we are in a time of grace…and don’t have the courage to walk out on FAITH to at least say to the future… this is how it’s done. So let’s keep educating… because it seems to be the safest and most comfortableness place for a Christian/sinner to be… so unless GOD knocks me off my horse and I am compelled to do his will…I quote the brother who died along side Jesus, we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

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        • “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” – 1 Corinthians 1:17.

          ” For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” – 1 Corinthians 1:18.

          “And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.” – Galatians 5:11.

          “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” – Galatians 6:14.

          ” And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:” – Ephesians 2:16.

          “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” – Ephesians 2:8.

          “(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:” – Philippians 3:18.

          “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” – Hebrews 12:2.

          The cross can and should be celebrated by Christians. Why? Because the Word of God does. There is no need to look to personal anecdotes when we have the divinely-inspired Word. And the cross is where the sacrifice took place, where the shame of sin was punished, where the law was nailed and where Satan was defeated. It is emblematic of the Gospel as Paul says: “the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who perish.” It is symbolic of our redemption. So yes, I have no problem celebrating the cross.

          As for terminology, I use the term gay because that is the current preferred terminology by the homosexual community. And again, it just comes back to whether or not you believe the Bible. If you don’t, then you are 100% right in what you say because Christianity is whatever you want it to be. But the Bible says God has preserved His Word forever. And that it will all be fulfilled. And there is no question by Scripture as to homosexuality being a sin. So I do not know what is left to debate at this point.

          If we believe Jesus, we belive His Word. All of it. And we are willing to deny our own ideas, ego and philosophies to let Christ live through us. You quote the thief on the cross. But he called Jesus “Lord” indicating his submission to Jesus’ authority. Do you submit to Jesus as Lord? Are you willing to plainly acknowledge the truth of His entire Bible?

          “And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.” – Luke 9:23.

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    • ChurchMuzic,

      You would do well not to lump all Christians together, esp. the ones you know nothing about. There are lots of false teachings out there. But this Christian has no crosses in her jewelry box or anywhere else in her home, because I know they violates the 2nd commandment. If other Christians don’t know that, it’s probably because their bible knowledge is limited to what some pastor reads to them in church on Sundays.

      The bible is the most profound, most difficult book on earth to understand.But if you take the time to really study the scriptures, God will teach you His truths. And many of those truths will contradict what is practiced by the majority of ‘Christians’ today.

      You said you “got tired of lying to GOD when I pray…because I broke promises”. God knows that no one is perfect & we all fall short, sometimes more than once. We are all sinners. But God also expects us to be honest with ourselves and with Him. God already knows what’s in your heart. So if you’re doing something you shouldn’t be doing but you aren’t ready to stop, there’s no point in asking for forgiveness.

      Repentance has to be real. If it’s not, then pray to God for help in rejecting whatever sinful behavior you want to stop. Then repent once you KNOW you’re ready to change. If we confess our sins & accept Christ as our savior, God forgives us so that we can have eternal life with Him. That is what makes Christianity unique among all the world’s religions — only Christianity offers humankind salvation.

      As far as quoting scripture goes, surely you don’t consider the posts here to be tantamount to prayers while standing in synagogues or on street corners? If I’m trying to talk to someone about God, I can’t do that w/out referring to the scriptures. If you find that tedious or vain, that’s on you. But my God tells me:

      “Keep my commands and live, And my law as the apple of your eye. Bind them on your fingers;
      Write them on the tablet of your heart.” – Proverbs 7: 22-3

      No Christian will ever be ashamed of knowing the scriptures by heart. I wish I had more of them memorized! But when I’m online, I also use bible search engines to find verses.

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  6. ChurchMuzic says:

    Let me also say BandE you are doing…and being a verb, for GOD…and I respect and love you for it… Reading the comments on the article about the dude with the circles, I was like YES! Preach BandE!!! But to you my brother and to the brothers and sisters who come to your sight…Im just saying, be careful and aware of who we are and who we are not…. the rest , give up to our heavenly father

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  7. ChurchMuzic says:

    I see you responded to my last psot quickly, but I am about to leave work and they want me off thr clock so til tmmrw

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  8. ChurchMuzic says:

    BandE , I’m not here to debate you…I call myself a sinner because I am more then that… I’m also a student which is why I came to this page…It wasn’t your page particularly that I sought however here I am.
    When my children does something wrong. I realize before I correct them, and I do correct them for as my mother told me I am your parent not your friend, But I make sure to remember that I too did these things, “wrong things” which humbles me when I am correcting them, and in doing that, the love remains in tact…oppose to the parent who lashes out as if they are perfect and in their anger lose the love.
    Do I believe Jesus is Lord. YES! Nor will I dare walk around as if I am him, There is only ONE Messiah. The anointed one we come to call Christ. Who says don’t call him good, only GOD is good..so where that leave you BandE. US…In all those scriptures that spoke of the cross none of them said as you did. “The cross can and should be celebrated by Christians” None of them…And if so..Show me those words..not yours. I was told the Egyptians had a medicine box if you will, that when they look upon it, they healed themselves. Do not people look at the cross as if Jesus is there, literally on it..they speak to it, pray to “it”
    RC, you hit the nail on the head. For as Jesus says only GOD is good and to keep his commandments and the2nd speaks of the graven image…
    Jesus spoke of the Pharisees and the teachers who don’t practice what they preach…So all I am saying is… be careful….and know that you are a sinner, when you are correcting GODS children.
    and in knowing this, know that we are ALL at the mercy of GOD….Meaning guilty.

    RC, regarding scriptures as I mention they are removing them day, by day. I asked a co-worker for his bible today to refer to some scriptures and he gave me his bible which looks like a bible, it’s called the New International Version(The New Scoifield study bible) And my favorite quote of the brother who died along side of Jesus… Wasn’t even mentioned! and when Judas turned Jesus over, and kissed him, this bible has Jesus saying “Friend” do what you came for…oppose to Judas betraying the son of man with a kiss…
    So again…it’s going to come a time where you, if not you perhaps your children or their children who will not have the word as it was written. It’s somewhat ironic that the very page that were speaking on regarding homosexuals…That it was a homosexual who published the Bible that we have come to hold closest to our hearts
    (The KingJames Version) Now I read that he was”gay” as BandE and us in the world has grown to call homosexuals now…it does sounds less offensive doesn’t it…:) if he was not…shame on those who put that out there..But if it is True…wow….and if they are changing the words now…what would a gay man who was a King have done with it I wonder… what you think BandE…:). Don’t answer that…

    As far as me saying I was tired of lying to GOD or myself, that was only in confession of my sin, not to be thrown back at me, but where I was at, at a particular time.
    As far as anyone calling themselves “a Christian” Hey…whatever floats your boat. I find it hard enough being a man, and I did the gang thing…So if you choose to take on the burden of others for being in their “gang” for don’t get it confused. A gang meant a group of people or organization…then they added the criminal element to the definition …However like gang members they walk around baring a flag and in the wrong area, they are attacked without that person knowing who they are …I can walk anywhere on Earth and say..I’m a sinner… and if so happen to get into a conversation with someone and I tell them I believe in Jesus… I think they will be more willing to listen…But that’s just me….well…I must go…Im off the clock and its Miller time…can’t talk about Jesus to someone at the Tavern if your not willing to have a dring with him  …. Peace!

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  9. ChurchMuzic,

    Since I was a child, I have known folks with pictures of a long-haired, White Jesus on their walls or a cross on their nightstand or above their bed. I started attending church at a young age & accepted Christ when I was 10. But when we began studying bible geography in Sunday school, I realized that there were no Caucasians living in the middle east where Jesus was born & raised, so why was He blond & blue-eyed in all the pictures? He lived long before the invention of the camera. If there had been a carved bust or painting of Jesus that survived from that time, then OK, I would’ve shut up about it. But one of the things that really turned me off to church was the fact that nobody at could explain the pictures of a White, shaggy-haired Jesus, esp. when the Bible says long hair on a man is shameful (1 Corinth.11:14) Grown-ups had us memorizing the 10 Commandments, yet they observed Sun. as the holy day when the Bible proved Jesus, a Jew, observed the Sabbath from sundown on Fri. to sundown on Sat. And the 4th Commandment told us: “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.”

    Once I turned 12, I told my parents that I refused to continue going to church until someone gave me answers to my questions. But they were no help. Like so many, they were good & decent people who believed in God & His son, Jesus, who made sure the family went faithfully to our (Baptist) church on Sundays, blindly following it’s traditions. They had no real understanding of the Bible because they never read it outside of church.

    So no more church for me! I still believed the Bible and maintained a hunger to know the Lord. But it took me more than a decade to begin to find the truth about the scriptures. (I thank God that I didn’t end up a hopeless heathen!)

    I say all that to say this: B&E was speaking of having personal reverence for Christ’s death on the cross vs. fetishizing the cross (which was merely, as you pointed out, a Roman torture instrument.) The power of the cross is not that it killed Christ. The Romans crucified many people during their height of their empire. Jesus died alongside 2 others who were crucified in a similar fashion. But unlike them, Jesus was sinless. His death was the blood sacrifice that paid for the sins of all mankind, past, present & future. But His resurrection, the fact that Christ overcame a horrible death on the cross & rose from the tomb after 3 days, meant that Death, the final enemy, was defeated for all believers.

    I feel more reverence for the resurrection than the crucifixion, because that is how Christ overcame Death. His death was a long & tortured one — it makes me cry even imagine it, much less seeing it in movies because of how painful it must have been. But Christ’s resurrection is what changed the fate of all humankind. B&E certainly knows that, so he wasn’t making excuses for those who wear crosses or hang them in their homes.

    Using a cross as an icon violates the 2nd commandment, plain & simple. If a person claims they’re not using it as an icon, they why is it around their neck or on their wall? Christians even tattoo the cross on their bodies now, claiming it’s a permanent sign of their faith! But Leviticus 19:28 clearly states: “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.” There’s nothing ambiguous there — “nor print ANY MARKS upon you” is as explicit as it gets. But still, millions insist on having a cross carved into their flesh in God’s name?

    If God wanted us to use signs & symbols to show our faith, He’d have told us so in the Bible. But God tells us the exact opposite:

    “You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.” – Exodus 20:4-5

    Millions of so-called Christians walk into Catholic churches all over the world, kneel before the enormous cross that stands behind the pulpit &/or cross themselves with their fingers before sitting down in a pew — & pretend that isn’t idolatry. And every time they do, Satan laughs.

    Now all this foolishness is going on about choosing a new pope — does that have anything to do with the salvation of one’s soul? Have you ever seen the word ‘pope’ (or any Greek or Hebrew word that could be translated as ‘pope’), in the bible?

    These truly are the last days…

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    • Hi RC,

      Thanks for the clarification. And yes, the verses I wrote about the original cross Christ was crucified on and the reason for why it is truly a symbol in Biblical Christianity. It’s symbolic value cannot be denied. This is not idolatry because it is pointing us to Christ, God in the flesh. People who are speaking to crosses, kissing them or talking to them or thus making an idol or a token. I do not wear a cross but I actually do not have a problem with someone wearing one or wearing a shirt that has a cross on it (as I have done in the past).

      The only thing I do no understand is what any of this has to do with what the Bible says about homosexuality. At the end of the day, you either believe God or you are making up your own doctrine/religion on the issue of homosexuality. Bringing up other areas where Christian may or may not be in error, while interesting, does not evade this issue. God bless.

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  10. ChurchMuzic,

    As far as King James goes, there’s never been any proof that he was gay. There’s plenty of evidence to the contrary, so I give him the benefit of the doubt. The three men most often cited as the King James’ lovers were Esme Stuart, Robert Carr, and George Villiers. You can google them if you want more info. But straight or gay, neither supposition detracts from the value of the King James Bible.

    There is a contingent of gays on the periphery of Hollywood who love to claim that almost any good-looking, rich male actor (or athlete) is a closeted homosexual. I guess they think it somehow empowers them to have movie stars as part of their ‘team’. A similar group exists within in the gay anti-Christian movement, that seeks to slander well-known Christians by claiming they are or used to be gay — even after they’re dead. (However I don’t believe either group represents all, or even most, gays.) Last year, this anti-Christian group was behind the publication of a gay-friendly version of the bible, THE QUEEN JAMES BIBLE, “edited to prevent homophobic misinterpretation”. The title is based on the claim that King James was openly gay, to the point that his contemporaries referred to the him as ‘Queen James’. Thankfully, the book got virtually no press & has sold very few copies.

    But the common thread between both gay groups is that they tell lies in order to make money. It’s purely a racket based on the fact that it’s impossible to prove a negative. How do you prove you didn’t sleep with someone, or prove that a 3rd party didn’t’ sleep with someone? You can’t.

    Here’s a brief summary of some of the facts:

    King James was the wealthiest, most intelligent & most revered monarch in British history. He began life as James Stuart of Scotland (his mother was Mary, Queen of Scots), a royal orphan raised by tutors & trained in Calvinistic theology. From an early age, he developed a love God and the Bible & was reported by his tutors to have memorized great portions of scripture. He also developed a deep aversion to the Roman Catholic Church.

    Stuart went on to become King James VI of Scotland & married Princess Anne of Denmark in 1589. An astute politician, he brokered peace deals between the warring Scottish clans & bought them together into a single unified nation under his leadership. James then went on to unite England & Scotland , creating the foundation of the British Empire, which later expanded across the entire globe. In 1604, James assumed the British throne, which also made him titular head of the Church of England.

    So he became King James the First of England, Scotland, Wales & Ireland. James was known to be quite besotted with his bride Anne & even wrote elaborate poems and sonnets describing her. (Hardly the behavior of a gay man.) Their marriage produced 8 children (so sex was not a rarity between them) but only 3 survived to adulthood: Henry, the firstborn, a daughter Elizabeth & another son, Charles. Henry died unexpectedly at age 18. But when Henry was 4 yrs.old, James wrote a book of advice & instruction to his son, which he called Basilikon Doron (Greek for ‘a king’s gift’). A few excerpts:

    “But the principal blessing is in your marrying of a godly and virtuous wife… being flesh of your flesh and bone of your bone… Marriage is the greatest earthly felicity… Without the blessing of God you cannot look for a happy marriage.”

    “Keep your body clean and unpolluted while you give it to your wife whom to only it belongs for how can you justly crave to be joined with a Virgin if your body be polluted”

    “As ye are a good Christian, so ye may be a good king… establishing good laws among your people: the other, by your behavior in your own person with your servants” .

    “There are some horrible crimes that ye are bound in conscience never to forgive: such as witchcraft, willful murder, incest, and sodomy.”

    Clearly, these words were composed by a godly man with great reverence for the sacrament of marriage, who labels sodomy a ‘horrible crime’. (Does he sound gay to you?) James later gave the Basilikon Doron to his surviving son, Charles, who eventually went on to succeed him as King of England.

    In an age when other European kings wanted to keep their subjects spiritually ignorant, James offered his people the greatest gift he could ever give them — in 1604 he decreed that the the Bible be translated into their native tongue. James was fluent in Latin, Greek, French, Italian & Spanish, so he understood the importance of language usage & correct translation. He took issue with certain verses in the 2 previous versions of scripture in use by the Church of England: the Great Bible (1539) & the Bishops’ Bible (1568). (See the Wikipedia link below for details) So King James called upon the top scholars in the land to make the translation. Those 47 men were members of the Church of England & all except 1 were clergymen. They completed the translation in 1611.

    The goal of the Protestant Reformation was not to divide the church into many denominations, but simply to make the Bible legally available in the common language, so everyone could read it. Under both the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England, it was a capital crime to print the Bible in any language other than Latin — esp. English. In Oct. 1536, William Tyndale, an Oxford scholar & leading figure of the Reformation, was executed for printing the Bible in English. His last words were, “Lord, open the King of England’s eyes!” Three years later his prayer was answered. In 1539, King Henry VIII — for totally self-serving reasons (which nonetheless served God’s purpose) — paid for the printing & distribution of the first Bible in English made available for public use, under the name the Great Bible.
    (see: http://www.greatsite.com/ancient-rare-bible-leaves/greatbible-leaf.html)

    Wikipedia has a pretty good synopsis of the matter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorized_King_James_Version.

    Every king has enemies, as well as those seeking to curry favor. One of James’ enemies was Sir Anthony Weldon, who served a Clerk of the Green Cloth (similar to the White House Chief of Staff, but under the royals) & had been expelled from court over a political dispute not long before the king’s death. Weldon’s family had held the Clerk’s position for ages, hiring officers for the administration the royal household & supervising all the royal travel arrangements. (It was a very lucrative job that included a salary, an apartment & a fee for every contract signed on the king’s behalf). Needless to say, Weldon was pissed off at being fired & banned from court. He swore revenge, but waited quite a long time to get it. In 1650 — 25 years after James’ death — Weldon published a paper (The Court and Character of King James I,) paper calling James a homosexual. Obviously, the king was in no position to defend himself. And in Weldon’s defense, some scholars dispute his authorship.

    Weldon not only despised James but was also deeply prejudiced against the Scottish people that James came from. Yet it was not until after both James & his son Charles were dead that Weldon wrote in A Description of Scotland: “Fornication they hold but a pastime, wherein man’s ability is approved. . . . At adultery, they shake their heads. . . . Murder they wink at; and blasphemy they laugh at.” He also wrote, “Their flesh naturally abhors cleanness. Their breath commly [sic] stinks of pottage; their linen of p…; their hands of pigs t…. . . . To be chained in marriage with one of them, were to be tied to a dead carcass, and cast into a stinking ditch. . . . I do wonder that . . . King James should be born in so stinking a town as Edinburgh in lousy Scotland.”

    http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/sorenson-ch10-2.html#_ftn15

    Weldon’s paper was largely ignored, since there were still enough people alive who knew James personally & knew the accusations were false. Weldon’s lies were forgotten for centuries, until recently, when the tale was picked up by anti-Christians hoping to vilify King James in an effort to tarnish the Bible that bears his name. By this means, they hope to trick people into using another, more ‘modern’ (meaning inaccurate) translation.

    There’s also a scholarly book on the matter, KING JAMES, UNJUSTLY ACCUSED by Stephen A. Coston, Sr., that claims to provide copious documentation that the rumors of James being gay were false.

    And let us not forget that the Roman Catholic Church was so desperate to keep the true Bible out of the hands of the English people that it attempted to kill King James after it’s publication. It then hired a terrorist bomber to blow up the House of Parliament & bring down the Protestant monarchy in 1605! (Google Guy Fawkes Day).

    So King James 1 is deeply important to the history of the Christian faith because he saw to it that a more faithful & accurate translation of the Bible was published in English & distributed for use by the common folk.

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  11. B&E — The cross issue doesn’t have to do with the gay issue, ChurchMuzic had asked about both, so I replied in one post.

    – RC

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  12. As Christians we know that the world is under a system of Satanic influence and lying spirits and every kind of deception. Satan is the father of lies and he is good at what he does. To suggest that people are born gay is to accuse God of creating that which he has condemned. Scripture teaches clearly that homosexuality is unnatural and and an abomination. Homosexuality is escalating in society, this is a sing of the times.

    Every child is born into the light of Christ blameless and innocent (John 1:9). Corruption comes through the vehicle of temptation (James 1:14,15). There is no such thing as a sin nature: this is gnostic teaching.

    The world is marching towards its own destruction, each generation pushes the envelope a little further. Moral decline, abortion, lawlessness and godlessness, a sexual revolution and now a homosexual revolution. Universal adoption of same-sex marriage is likely to provoke God’s wrath on an unprecedented scale. Christians must wake up and have no part in this. Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues (Rev 18:4).

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  13. ChurchMuzic — Sorry, I forgot the most important point about the King James Bible!
    The Strong’s Concordance, which offers lexicons in both Greek & Hebrew for Every Single Word In The Bible, is based on the KJV. No other version can make that claim. So if there’s ever a question about an English word in the KJV, with Strong’s you can trace the word back to the original Greek or Hebrew, then verify the translation yourself. That can’t be done with any other version of he Bible, which is why I stick to the KJV.

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  14. Hi Carl,

    I think you’re confused about there verse you quoted. You said: Every child is born into the light of Christ blameless and innocent (John 1:9).

    But John 1:9 says: “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

    How does that imply that children are born innocent? The 1st chapter of the book of John recalls the book of Genesis, mentioning God as the creator of all things. You’ve taken one verse out of context, but even that verse doesn’t imply that childfren are born blameless.

    John 1 (KJV)
    “1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2. The same was in the beginning with God.
    3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
    6. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    7. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    8. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    9. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”

    The chapter continues for several more verses which I won’t post here. But how do you get that children are born sinless from those verses?

    The book of Romans makes it quite clear that Adam was responsible for bringing sin into the world & that ALL are tainted by it:

    Romams 5:12 – “Wherefore, AS BY ONE MAN SIN ENTERED INTO THE WORLD, and death by sin; AND SO DEATH PASSED UPON ALL MEN, for that all have sinned:”

    There’s no exclusion from original sin mentioned anywhere in the Bible, even for infants. So where are you getting that from?

    And how can you claim that “There is no such thing as a sin nature: this is gnostic teaching” when the Bible teaches us repeatedly that all humans have a sinful nature?

    Romans 3:9-19 – “What then? Are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:”

    Psalm 51:5 – “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

    1 John 1:10 – “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

    Romans 3:23 – “:For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”

    The only person on earth who was ever free from sin was Jesus.

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  15. ChurchMuzic says:

    @ Band E…. You stated…”At the end of the day, you either believe God or you are making up your own doctrine/religion on the issue of homosexuality” Let me ake you.. not the goverment and powers that be that causes or influences people to sin. Let me speak solely to You when asking this this question… and it will sum up this homosexual and Doctrine scenerio you pose…
    If you have a child BandE. A child you love whole heartedly, that you will give your life for… The woman you love gave up her life while delivering this child, for she loved this child more then her own life…Now…this same child has turned 16…and tells you, whom she loves…that their a homosexual. Do you stop loving this child???Yes or No. Nothing in between….
    Its a bitterness that people give when referring scriptures towards a sinner…Didnt even the Devil used what was written to try and tempt Jesus?? Yet mere weak unfaithful men…who stanks to high heaven..who would not dare leave behind their cable tv’s and queen size beds,and their jobs and walk out without purse, without scrib and knock on a strangers door because thats where GOD has sent them…Truly walk as Jesus without a place to lay their heads. A people who cant win over a enemy, yet alone cast out a demon…But still… they speak of Heaven and apply scriptures as if the gate keepers.
    But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
    Regarding King James RC … Wasnt this man doing what the powers that be are doing today?……So he had a G8 summit if you will…and gathered the powers that be/Scholars to do what…??? On the streets they refer to someone or something thats whack or lame as gay…and I concur in saying King James was Gay!

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    • Hey ChurchMuzic – This question has been asked to me many times. And my answer is No I would not stop loving my child. But guess what? I would not stop if she lies, steals or cheats on a test too. It’s all sin. Loving someone does not require you to excuse their sin. And again it all comes down to either believing God or not. Scripture says: ” let God be true, but every man a liar” I believe God’s Word over my own heart, what newspapers say or what anyone says. Do you? Do you believe the Bible, all of it, or are you still in rebellion?

      All this talk of living poor on purpose and selling one’s good, ignores one of the main messages of the Bible: obedience is better than sacrifice. Listening and following what God says, as written in His Holy Bible, is better than trying to live a pious life to impress God while rejecting part of His Word. So again, do you believe homosexuality is a sin or are you putting yourself on the throne and proclaiming a different religion that you personally approve of and suits your tastes?

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    • Kenneth Price says:

      Man and Woman are Loved equally by God. God Created woman for man from man.. God also hates SIN, In which will bring the wrath of God upon;

      Romans 1:27. Homosexuality Condemned?

      Romans 1:27 appears to speak of homosexual relations as sinful. Is this actually the case? Would the Bible really condemn people for such acts, or is it speaking about something quite different from what we understand as homosexuality?

      In our day speaking negatively of homosexuality is often declared to be evil. Several factors have led to this. First, postmodern society believes that all personal options are equally good. Thus one should take pride in one’s ethnic background or religion or sexual preference. None is better than another and no one should judge another. This postmodern view may express a truth about our relative human judgments, but does it give God’s view? What if God really does exist and has a view by which he will judge the world in the end? Furthermore, there are limits to our tolerance of cultural diversity, for we are not very accepting of Nazi culture, for example.

      Second, genital sexual expression is viewed as a right and even as a necessity for emotional health. This is a new view, which ignores the fact that many who cannot function sexually (such as impotent males) can and do live full and meaningful lives. Unlike food and water and shelter, sexual expression is not a need. Nor is it a right. Many people, whatever their sexual inclinations, are deprived of opportunities for full sexual expression (think of those heterosexuals who want to be married but cannot find an appropriate spouse) and, while it may not be a desirable situation for them, it is not that they are being wronged.

      Third, homosexuality has found increasing acceptance in our society. However, acceptance does not make something right. Nor does the evidence that homosexuality may be inborn make it right. Some types of personality are apparently inborn, and we think of these varieties of personality types as equally good, but alcoholism, schizophrenia and a tendency to violence may also be linked to genes, and we look at these as genetic defects. We view them as bad and try to control their expression.

      Fourth, there have been attempts to label any rejection of homosexuality as “homophobic” and thus make a rejection of this lifestyle appear wrong. Such labeling begs the question. Is one “kleptophobic” if he or she calls theft wrong? It is not always an issue of fear (phobia) at all, but one of sober judgment about what is right and wrong based on a given standard. For Christians the standard has been the Bible, so that is why looking at this passage is so critical.

      There are several passages in the New Testament that refer to homosexual genital sexuality: Romans 1:26-27, 1 Cor. 6:9, 1 Tim. 1:10 and Jude 7. These build on the Old Testament attitude toward homosexuality found in Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. What conclusions can we draw from these texts?

      First, all of these passages condemn particular sexual acts. None of them speak of homosexual desires. In the Scriptures it is not homosexual temptation that is wrong, but the actual acts themselves. This is an important distinction, for it reminds us that the Scriptures honor people successfully struggling with temptation rather than condemning them for their temptations. The man who has never been tempted to commit adultery is not more virtuous than the man who has successfully resisted repeated significant temptations. The first man is only untested in that area.

      Second, we recognize that while homosexual practice does not appear to have been common in Palestine, it was a significant feature of the Greek culture. It is not that Greeks were exclusively homosexual, for in fact the general practice was bisexuality, with wives being necessary for procreation, but the use of prostitutes and boys also being more or less accepted. It is also not true that all Greeks equally accepted homosexuality. One form of it, pederasty, was debated by Greek thinkers.

      Third, we notice that the explicit rejection of homosexuality is found mostly in Paul’s letters, for he was the Christian writer most in contact with the Greek world. Romans was probably written from Corinth and 1 Corinthians was, of course, written to Corinth. It is sometimes argued, then, that Paul’s concern was only with pederasty, that he was entering one side of the discussion which was common in the Greek world. However, his language in this passage is not a description of pederasty. A case can be made for making 1 Cor. 6:9 refer to that vice, but such a case is not totally convincing to scholars in this field. What it looks like is going on in 1 Cor. 6:9 is that Paul, living in the Greek world, needing an example of vice to use in his letter, used the vice that he found close at hand, homosexual practice, which included, but was not limited to, pederasty.

      In other words, homosexual practice was not a major problem within the church. It was a problem in the Gentile world around the church. Why was this the case? Probably the reason is that the church taught fidelity to one’s wife. For example, look at the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 19. When in Matthew 19 Jesus prohibits divorce, the disciples respond in shock that it would be better not to marry than to be stuck forever with a single woman. Rather than softening his statement, Jesus comments that it might be good not to marry and distinguishes those who cannot marry due to sexual dysfunction from those who choose not to marry because of “the kingdom of heaven.” In other words, he gave people only two alternatives: faithful marriage (and he has already made it clear in Matthew 5:27-28 what he means by faithfulness) or celibacy. While Jesus does not appear to have been married, Simon Peter was. It would be Paul who would follow the route of celibacy.

      Turning to Paul, we find the same alternatives offered. In 1 Cor. 6:9 he rules out “sexual immorality” by which he means sexual intercourse with a person who is not one’s spouse, especially a prostitute. He makes the alternative clear in 1 Cor. 7:9: if one does not have the gift of celibacy, then one should marry. For the same reason married couples should practice regular sexual intercourse (1 Cor. 7:2-5). One can read through the whole of the rest of 1 Cor. 7 and find only two options: celibacy or faithful marriage. These same two options are offered to the widow and to the never-married, to the old and to the young.

      As we noted above, in the Greek world as in the world today there were very few who were exclusively homosexual. Most men married out of duty to their family, if for no other reason. The church had only one instruction to such men and women: your wife or husband is to be your exclusive sexual focus. Satisfy one another. There is no option of a homosexual relationship on the side. For the few who were not married the church had two options: remain celibate or marry. Again homosexual sexual intercourse is not an option. By stressing these two positive options (rather than ranting against homosexuality) the early church appears to have had little problem with the practice of homosexuality, despite its being in the world around them.

      Does the Bible really condemn homosexuality? The answer is yes, it does. In every place it mentions any homosexual practice it roundly condemns the practice. In no place does it speak positively of homosexuality. Does the Bible dwell on the issue, especially since parts of it were written in a world full of bisexuality? No, it does not. Instead the Bible focuses on its alternative. It encourages sexual expression in the context of a faithful marriage, and it exalts celibacy for those who cannot or choose not to marry. Both are honorable lifestyles. There is no third way.

      (1:32) Judgment: God—the only living and true God—assures final judgment which is death, that is, eternal separation from God. There are two reasons why men will be judged and condemned to death.

      1. Men will be judged because they sin and take pleasure in others who sin by doing the same things (1:29). Men have appetites, desires, and lusts, and they spend their lives seeking to fulfill them. The great tragedy is that they not only take pleasure in their own sins, but they take pleasure in the sins of others. They approve and talk about their selfishness and exploits and that of their friends. They focus their lives upon…

      • extravagant living • stylish dress • wealth • power
      • position • fame • material possessions • sexual affairs

      As a result of such selfishness, the sins listed in the Scripture tear at the world and destroy human life (Romans 1:29-31); therefore, the judgment of God is assured. Those who commit such things and take pleasure in the sins of others shall die, that is, be separated from God eternally.

      “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them” (1:32).

      “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” (Isaiah 5:20).

      “Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life” (Ezekiel 13:22).

      “Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or Where is the god of judgment?” (Malachi 2:17).

      2. Men will be judged because they are without excuse: they know through an inner sense that the judgment of God is coming upon the world. Men sense that some higher power (God) is going to straighten out the mess in the world: that injustices and inequities will be brought to judgment, condemned and punished. (See outline—• Romans 2:1-16 and notes—•Romans 2:1-16 for more discussion.)

      “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

      “For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace” (Romans 8:6).

      “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

      “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death” (James 1:15).

      “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Rev. 21:8).

      “As righteousness tendeth to life; so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death” (Proverbs 11:19).

      “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4).

      Sin— Body— Judgment: God—the only living and true God—shows wrath by giving men up to vile, unnatural affections. The term “vile affections” means passions, dishonor, disgrace, infamy, shame, and degradation. It means passions that cannot be controlled or governed, that run loose and wild, no matter how much a person tries to control them.

      1. The reason God gives men up to vile affections (pathē atimias) is because of their unnatural passion. Men lust and lust, craving the illegitimate and unlawful. They burn in their lust one for another. And note what Scripture is talking about: unnatural affection, that is, homosexuality.

      ⇒ Women burn and lust and exchange the “natural use into that which is against nature.” And note, it is against nature.

      ⇒ Men burn in their “lust one toward another; men with men doing that which is shameful.”

      Note again that the sin takes place in the heart. Men burn within, crave the sin before they commit the act. It is their burning, their lusting, their craving that sets them aflame to pursue the shameful act. Their heart burns after other men, not after God. Therefore, they stand condemned, and God is forced to judge them.

      2. The result of unnatural affection is a totally depraved nature. When men choose a life of “vile affections,” God gives them up to it. It is man’s choice, and since it is man’s choice, God can do nothing about it. God has to give man up to what he chooses. He does not override man’s will.

      Note a crucial fact: Scripture says men receive “in themselves that recompence [pay back, punishment] of their error.” The judgment for homosexuality is within, not without man. If a person burns after unnatural affection, he is given over to his burning; he is given over to burn and crave more and more. He is judged and condemned to live in his unnatural passion and to feel the shame of it. He is enslaved and held in bondage to it, psychologically and physically. And the judgment is “meet,” that is, fit, just, exactly what it should be. If men lust and burn after unnatural affection, it is only fit that they be given what they so passionately crave. Therefore, God judges men by giving men up to live in their vile affections.

      “That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour; not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God” (1 Thes. 4:4-5).

      “Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge” (Hebrews 13:4).

      4. (28) God, Wrath of— Judgment— Sin: God—the only living and true God—shows wrath by giving men up to reprobate, depraved minds. The term “reprobate mind” (adokimon noun PWS: 3253) means a mind that is rejected, disapproved, degraded, depraved; a mind that cannot stand the test of judgment.

      1. The reason God gives men up to reprobate minds is because men reject God. They know God, but they do not “like to retain God in their knowledge.” They…

      • do not like to approve God. • do not like to recognize God.

      • do not like to acknowledge God.

      They simply do not want God to have anything to do with their lives; therefore, they push Him out of their minds. They ignore and refuse to accept God’s presence.

      2. The result is forcibly stated. God gives men over to reprobate minds, minds that are totally depraved. Men are allowed to do exactly as they choose; they are enslaved more and more in their depravity and unsuitable behavior. (See Deeper Study #1-23—Romans 1:29-31, for the meaning of the terrible sins listed.)

      “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting” (Galatians 6:7-8).

      “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God” (Romans 2:5).

      Leviticus 20:13 (KJV)
      13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

      Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy—The minute specification of the incestuous and unnatural crimes here enumerated shows their sad prevalence amongst the idolatrous nations around, and the extreme proneness of the Israelites to follow the customs of their neighbors. It is to be understood, that, whenever mention is made that the offender was “to be put to death” without describing the mode, stoning is meant. The only instance of another form of capital punishment occurs in Lev. 20:14, that of being burnt with fire; and yet it is probable that even here death was first inflicted by stoning, and the body of the criminal afterwards consumed by fire (Jos 7:15).

      (20:10-21) Justice— Immorality— Adultery— Incest— Homosexuality— Bestiality: justice was to be executed upon the person who committed various sexual sins and crimes. All the sexual sins known among men are forbidden by the seventh commandment: a person must not commit adultery (Exodus 20:14). All forms of illicit sex are covered in the present passage. Unbelievable and unspeakable acts are covered, such illicit acts as incest with the closest of family members, homosexuality, bestiality, and adultery. Such sins tear down the very nature of man, man who is the summit of God’s creation. Moreover, such terrible acts of immorality cause great pain and suffering: they destroy wives, husbands, and children, and eventually society itself. The sins of immorality destroy the family, the very foundation of society, the institution God ordained to give purpose and meaning, form and structure to society. The laws governing these terrible sins of immorality were discussed earlier (Leviticus 18:1-30). Now, God spells out the punishment for these terrible sexual sins and crimes.

      Thought 1. Immorality does irreparable harm to all parties involved. Adultery causes great pain and injury to husbands and wives and children. It can break up families and destroy homes. When immorality breaks up homes, it causes a part of society to crumble. Moreover, immorality corrupts the mind and conscience of the offender, enslaving him to unbridled lust. When a mind becomes enslaved by unbridled lust, it is subject—far more subject—to committing all forms of lawlessness and corrupt behavior.

      Lax morals are sweeping the world today. It was lax morals, in particular the sin of homosexuality, that caused the judgment of God’s fire and brimstone to fall upon Sodom and Gomorrha. A people or society can become so immoral that God is forced to give up on them, turning them over to their unbridled lusts. They refuse to repent of their sin and immorality; therefore, God has to give them up to the burning of their passion and lust. They are to bear the judicial judgment of God: what they sow they will reap. They sow lust and immorality; therefore they burn in their lust and immorality as long as they live upon the earth. But then, once they die, they face the eternal judgment and condemnation of God.

      “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them” (Romans 1:18, 24-32).

      “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:9-10).

      “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God” (Galatians 5:19-21).

      “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Rev. 21:8)

      Abandoned to sexual perversion (ROMANS;1:26-27)
      1:26-27. Also God gave them over to shameful lusts (lit., “passions of disgrace”). This involved, as the text states, both sexes engaging in homosexual instead of heterosexual relationships. Women deliberately exchanged natural relations (with men in marriage) for unnatural ones (with other women). This is the second “exchange” the unregenerate made (cf. v. 25). Men… were inflamed with lust (orexei, “sexual lust,” used only here in the NT and differing from the more common word for lust in v. 26).
      The words translated women and men in these verses are the sexual words “females” and “males.” Contemporary homosexuals insist that these verses mean that it is perverse for a heterosexual male or female to engage in homosexual relations but it is not perverse for a homosexual male or female to do so since homosexuality is such a person’s natural preference. This is strained exegesis unsupported by the Bible. The only natural sexual relationship the Bible recognizes is a heterosexual one (Gen. 2:21-24; Matt. 19:4-6) within marriage. All homosexual relations constitute sexual perversion and are subject to God’s judgment. Such lustful and indecent acts have within them the seeds of punishment (due penalty).

      1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (KJV)
      9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
      10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

      6:9-10. Paul’s third reminder (Do you not know… cf. vv. 2-3) was probably meant to complement the thought of verse 4, but it also illustrated the gap which existed between the Corinthians’ future position and their present practice. The wicked would have no share in God’s future kingdom because they were not related to Christ, the Heir (cf. Mark 12:7). The wicked would one day be judged by the saints (1 Cor. 6:2) on the basis of their works (Rev. 20:13) which would condemn them. Yet the saints were acting no differently.
      The word adikoi (“the wicked”) in 1 Corinthians 6:9 was used in verse 1, there translated “the ungodly.” The verb form adikeite (“do wrong”) however, was used in verse 8 to describe the Corinthians’ behavior. Their future role should have radically affected their practice in the present (cf. 1 John 3:3). If they thought otherwise, Paul warned, they were deceived (cf. 1 Cor. 5:11; Rev. 21:7-8; 22:14-15).
      The list of offenders was similar to that noted earlier (1 Cor. 5:10-11), which no doubt corresponded to problems in Corinth and in other large cities of the day (cf. Eph. 5:3-6). Homosexuality and male prostitution, for example, were especially characteristic of Greco-Roman society. Plato lauded homosexual love in The Symposium (181B). Nero, emperor at the time Paul wrote this letter, was about to marry the boy Sporus (Suetonius Lives of the Caesars 6. 28), an incident bizarre only in its formality, since 14 of the first 15 Roman emperors were homosexual or bisexual.
      6:11. Some (but not all) the Corinthian Christians had been guilty of the sins listed in verses 9-10, but God had intervened. They were washed… by the Spirit (cf. Titus 3:5), sanctified in the Son (cf. 1 Cor. 1:2), and justified before God (cf. Rom. 8:33). This fact of justification was an appropriate thought for those judicially carping Corinthians.

      ♦ “Sexual immorality” encompasses all sexual intercourse outside of marriage. The serious nature of adultery and fornication (intercourse between unmarried persons) is seen in this powerful Corinthians passage as well as throughout the Scripture. There are two basic reasons: first, sex is sacramental, intended to bond two people together in the most intimate of human relationships. Second, marriage is a covenant, a commitment of mutual loyalty which is to reflect the commitment of God to His people. Within the context of covenant and sacrament, sex is beautiful and right. In any other, it is destructive and wrong.

      Western civilization now stands at the crossroads. We have started down the road to destruction, perhaps, but the way of life still stretches out before us. The ethical dilemmas we face show that we are at the crossroads. Will we cherish the lives of the innocent, or will we permit abortion on demand? Will we protect the lives of the defenseless, or will we allow involuntary euthanasia? Will we preserve the sanctity of marriage, or will we tolerate no-fault divorce and homosexual unions? Will we love the true and the beautiful, or will we gaze upon images of sex and violence? These are the questions a culture faces at the crossroads.

      The evangelical church is also standing at the crossroads. Will we glorify God in our worship, or will we entertain ourselves? Will we bear witness to the Law of God and the grace of the gospel, or will we tone down our message so as not to offend anyone? Will we expound the eternal Word of God, or will we seek some new revelation? Will we defend the doctrine of justification by faith alone, or will we add works to grace? These are the questions a church faces when it stands at the crossroads.

      (1:32) Judgment: God—the only living and true God—assures final judgment which is death, that is, eternal separation from God. There are two reasons why men will be judged and condemned to death.

      1. Men will be judged because they sin and take pleasure in others who sin by doing the same things (1:29). Men have appetites, desires, and lusts, and they spend their lives seeking to fulfill them. The great tragedy is that they not only take pleasure in their own sins, but they take pleasure in the sins of others. They approve and talk about their selfishness and exploits and that of their friends. They focus their lives upon…

      • extravagant living • stylish dress • wealth • power
      • position • fame • material possessions • sexual affairs

      As a result of such selfishness, the sins listed in the Scripture tear at the world and destroy human life (Romans 1:29-31); therefore, the judgment of God is assured. Those who commit such things and take pleasure in the sins of others shall die, that is, be separated from God eternally.

      “Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them” (1:32).

      “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” (Isaiah 5:20).

      “Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life” (Ezekiel 13:22).

      “Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or Where is the god of judgment?” (Malachi 2:17).

      2. Men will be judged because they are without excuse: they know through an inner sense that the judgment of God is coming upon the world. Men sense that some higher power (God) is going to straighten out the mess in the world: that injustices and inequities will be brought to judgment, condemned and punished. (See outline—• Romans 2:1-16 and notes—•Romans 2:1-16 for more discussion.)

      “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

      “For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace” (Romans 8:6).

      “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

      “Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death” (James 1:15).

      “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death” (Rev. 21:8).

      “As righteousness tendeth to life; so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death” (Proverbs 11:19).

      “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4).

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      Kenneth Price says:

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  16. ChurchMuzic says:

    BandE.. I want to 1st say thank you. For the platform were speaking thru, and allowing my comments to post. Also for sending me to the word which as I mentioned I had to borrow a co-workers bible and in doing so I noticed people really interested in my reading it…maybe to do it themselves.. Perhaps because I bare a strength… or lack of… that made the gesture that much greater, either way to God be the Glory.
    Speaking of my co-workers bible, which I gave its name. Excluded and manipulated words. Perhaps there will be a Denzel/Book of Eli type person out there who if the book vanishes/ if not in physicality but from its original, Will be capable to give a full account of it thru memory, front to finish (who will publish it is another story)
    In your reply to my question /example if you will regarding (if) your child was a homosexual…By the way I hope in reading that, you realized that the love surpassed just your child.
    You stated “Loving someone does not require you to excuse their sin.” Listen to that
    The word “Excuse” has its meaning…that word is a noun, which has a synonym which is…Forgive….

    Perhaps I don’t understand the position or role you & Christians have regarding Jesus. However when you say you’re a “Christ”ian”; such a word compels me to attach you & Jesus @ the hip.”CHRIST”ian>ian being a suffix which means (relating to) which relate means (to be connected by blood or marriage)..so why would I NOT think of you and Jesus simultaneously. (If) the word “Christian” that embodies the spirit of Jesus rings true. However according to you, Jesus (whom you are related to, thru blood and marriage) says “Loving someone does not require you to excuse their sin” ?
    Sounds like blasphemy doesn’t it..
    You have heard that GOD so loved the world that he sent his son…and wasn’t it the CHRIST who while being murdered, ask GOD to forgive them for they not know what they do…Forgive meaning> to give up resentment of or claim to requital for . b : to grant relief from payment of . 2. : to cease to feel resentment against … which is why Jesus told his disciples to pray saying the following> Father hollowed be thy name>>>>>>>>>

    You say you follow Jesus. I quoted what Jesus said to those who followed him, Or wanted to follow him. “Leave behind your possessions” And go, Past your doorstep, your block, your town or city. your country..Just GO! On faith.. Not to be bonded to a material object without life or consciousness; an inanimate object> of this world. You reply >All this talk of living poor on purpose< ?
    Haven’t you heard the expression "priceless". So you admit the measure of wealth is compared to the the things of this world. How would the Good News/The word have traveled as far as it did if this is how those who followed Jesus felt.
    The bite, at the start of that comment you gave on followers of Jesus..made the tail end of your comment on “obedience” simply remind me of where the bite came from @ the start.
    You ask if I believe in the "whole bible" or am I being rebellious. When you totally ignored what I brought forward regarding the cross being a "graven images and idols" which goes against GOD 2nd commandment. (And I wasn’t saying this to go against You/Christian, but for you to see all sin oppose to a sin)
    RC spoke as a witness and gave testimony against it… but you wasn’t moved. Isn’t she also a Christian? Do you and her not bare the same name. Are you and her thru Christ also related to each other thru blood and marriage? So why divorce yourself from her testimony….

    According to you it’s cool to wear a cross on a T-shirt. Perhaps you will one day witness a t-shirt with a cross standing beside someone with a Mark Batterson t-shirt bearing a Circle… and feel somewhat justified, that @ least GODS “symbol” is representing.
    The whole bible wasn’t meant/Intend to indicate or refer to You/us…not regarding salvation @ least. If it was… then why was Jesus born and died and risen.

    Speaking of the bible..If read in its proper order…Jesus didn’t even come to talk to You/us…It was Paul who was given the Gospel to give to the gentiles whom he said "You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols." 1Cor. 12:2

    So why speak on whole and use only parts. Didn’t Jesus use the sons as in example. One saying he will do but didn’t, the other saying he will not do…but did. So why speak on Obedience while being disobedient in the same sentence…

    I want to be a faithful servant…but all I am now is a student. My faith is like pee-wee herman jumping in the ring with that Russian from Rocky. I have the will to get in there…but will get my block knocked off… if not conditioned and trained to avoid or.. how to survive the punch…when already born with a glass jaw.
    But in the meantime between time, because I know not when I will drop dead…I quote the brother who died near Jesus on the cross…we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

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    • Hey ChurchMuzic,

      I apologize for mispeaking. When I said, loving my child does not justify excusing their sin, I meant overlooking it, as in, not treating it as sin. And that is the central question to you: do you believe God when He calls homosexuality a sin and says that it is an abomination? I am not clear on your answer yet in this discussion to that question.

      As RC explained, I do not worship a graven image. I don’t bow before crosses, pray to them, speak to them or give them any special “mystical power” as if they are magic amulets. Wearing one does not change that anymore than wearing a hat on my head. The hat is not an idol, it’s clothing. If I put that hat on an altar and pray to it, then it’s an idol.

      The whole bible wasn’t meant/Intend to indicate or refer to You/us…not regarding salvation @ least. If it was… then why was Jesus born and died and risen.

      Speaking of the bible..If read in its proper order…Jesus didn’t even come to talk to You/us…It was Paul who was given the Gospel to give to the gentiles whom he said “You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.” 1Cor. 12:2

      Here I strongly disagree. Jesus said:

      And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 9 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. – Matthew 28:18-20.

      “All nations” is everyone. The Gospel Jesus Christ preaches is for the entire world. The verse you cite in 1 Corinthians 12 is being used out of its context:

      “Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

      The context is the giving and use of spiritual gifts. It has nothing to do with salvation or who was the Gospel intended for.

      And we are all growing in faith and knowledge of Christ. I am just learning like you and everyone else. But we should be in agreement that God has the final say on all our doctrine. That’s the only point I am trying to convey to you.

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  17. Robinson Maraboli says:

    Jesus Christ sends this message, in spanish, warning about Maitreya, in a little sanctuary of Argentina (Use a good translator to understand well the message) http://www.santuario.com.ar/paginas/bp_044.html#Anchor-14344

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  18. Robinson Maraboli says:

    This is one of the antichrist’s faces. In the symbol (flag) of maitreya you can see the swastika and behind of this, a diamond, the same symbol that you can see in the star of the antichrist, and maybe that symbol represents the demons. http://youtu.be/FasMwogEqwo

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  19. Robinson Maraboli says:

    Commercial of the antichrist on TV: http://youtu.be/fll97zpfEZQ

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  20. Robinson Maraboli says:

    The World tallest statue for the antichrist in India http://youtu.be/Uh07CBCL7jA

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  21. Robinson Maraboli says:

    Maitreya and the communism new world order: http://youtu.be/k9yqFrvl-Jk

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  22. Robinson Maraboli says:

    The miracles of the antichrist: http://youtu.be/gD2qkFV6PhA

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  23. Robinson Maraboli says:

    The antichrist followers (look at the pentagram star at the beginning): http://youtu.be/73vvOT7NaBA

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  24. Robinson Maraboli says:

    The antichrist star over Liverpool, UK. http://youtu.be/1ekv_ck8MGY

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  25. Robinson Maraboli says:

    Who rules this planet? http://youtu.be/cmI9V0fmJWk

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    • Hi Robinson,

      Thanks for your comments. While you are free to share information on Maitreya in our comments, please refrain from posting the same comments/links over and over in each article. I am not questioning your sincerity in what you are posting but am just asking for proper internet etiquette. Thanks very much.

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  26. fatcheek says:

    People need to quit strainig at the ganat and swallowing camel fur in other words making things harder then what it really is and that is the simple gospel of christ which is the price that he paid for all men for all time anyone who would belive in him and give there lives to him shall be saved and that means a way of life how we must live in him…..it is in him we obtain salvation his way alone there is no otherway we can be saved it is the blood that washes away all sin it covers it up those that are in him are covered by the blood which is what God sees when he looks at those who have recieved his word(jesus). every one wants and loves what john 3:16 says but they fail to read further down where Gods word said that those who reject jesus are condemed already not ” are going to be condemed ” you are already doomed(judged) if you reject Gods word which is Jesus (the word became flesh and dwelled among us) the word says and I say agin the word says that you are condemed already because of sin and Jesus is the only one who can save you from that condemnation what condemnation you say? the sin of disobiediance not obeying Gods word (which has already told us what sin is) which is………Jesus the son of God through whom every thing (you …me) was created for him and by him and according to his word he never changes ever so if it was abominable then it still is now sin is sin to him it is sin that condems and keeps us from God sin is alien to God it is not his he did not create it the devil and his followers chose to rebel just as man chose to rebel and are still rebeling(questoning his word which is what the first lie told to eve by the devil in the garden did and it was the same lie that the devil tempted jesus with in wilderness and it is the same lie that drives man even to this day to shake his fist at God and say ” why have you made me thus ” but God has said ” As I live saith the Lord I will not be enquired of by you ” Ezekiel 20:31.The very reason that jesus had to come and die for us is clearly stated here 1st John 3:8-10 . the King James 1611 version get your self and old one from the used store while they can still be found and not these watered dumed down so called new versions and read it ask God to teach you him self he will reveal to you who he is on a personal level by the power of his holy Ghost and will lead you into all truths……Jesus said ” I am the way The truth and The life ” there can be no truth what so ever without the truth of Gods word……..Jesus.

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