Was Jesus a Copy of Horus, Mithras, Krishna, Dionysus and Other Pagan Gods?

 

Horus | Was Jesus a Copy of Horus?

This was not the basis for Jesus Christ.

Are the Bible accounts of Jesus plagiarizing the story of Horus, Krishna, Mithras, Dionysis and other pagan Gods? – A Critical Examination

 

“Was Jesus a Copy of Horus, Mithras, Krishna, Dionysis and Other Pagan Gods?”

This question is often asked especially in light of the viral film ‘Zeitgeist’ a mega-popular documentary about the New World Order and Illuminati. The movie spent over 30 minutes attacking the Bible and the Christian faith and specifically the idea that the story of Jesus Christ in the Gospels is nothing more than a copy of the story of the Egyptian God Horus, Mithras and other pagan gods. Additionally Dan Brown author of the DaVinci Code, one of the most blasphemous, Anti-Christian books ever written, stated “nothing in Christianity is original” as he promotes the idea these mythological figures served as the basis for the Gospel accounts of Jesus Christ (Brown’s latest book, ‘The Lost Symbol’, takes this idea to the extreme – an article on this book and the upcoming movie will be posted soon). This article will show that not only are these claims incorrect and lack any substantive evidence, but that they are part of a greater spiritual agenda that Dan Brown, the Zeitgeist film and others have in common.

 

 

Was Jesus a Copy of Horus?

Horus | Was Jesus a Copy of Horus?

The Egyptian God Horus.

 

The Zeitgeist film makes a number of wild statements about Horus to attempt to prove that Jesus is a copy. But let’s look at the claims against actual Egyptian mythology:

“Horus was born on December 25th”  — According to Egyptian mythological history, Horus’s birthday is celebrated in the season of Khoiak, which runs in the months of October and November, not December 25th. Furthermore, the date of December 25th is never mentioned in the Bible as the date of Jesus’ birth and thus has no relevance to the account of Jesus’ life. So right away, the claims of “plagiarism” look completely baseless.

“Horus was born of a virgin”  — There are two accounts of Horus’ birth. The most famous by far, was that Horus was born from his mother Isis, who was not a virgin, but rather a widow of the slain Osiris. Through sorcery, Isis, assembled the body of Osiris and was impregnated with his phallus. Clearly this was a sexual union and not a virgin birth. The “Hymn to Osiris” which records this account states: “[Isis] made to rise up the helpless members [phallus] of him whose heart was at rest, she drew from him his essence [DNA material], and she made therefrom an heir [Horus].” (Source and Source).

“Three Wise Men Came to Adore the New Born Savior”- No source is provided by the documentary for this claim. Additionally, the Bible does not say “three wise men” came to see Jesus. It never tells us the number of wise men. And they did not come at Jesus’ birth in a manger. They came to his family home when he was a toddler.

“Horus was a child prodigy teacher at 12″ — The movie offers no pre-New Testament sources that state this.

“Horus had 12 Disciples”Historian Glen Miller writes: “But again, my research in the academic literature does not surface this fact. I can find references to FOUR “disciples”–variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU (“Followers of Horus”) [GOE:1.491]. I can find references to SIXTEEN human followers. And I can find reference to an UNNUMBERED group of followers called mesniu/mesnitu (“blacksmiths”) who accompanied Horus in some of his battles [although these might be identified with the HERU-SHEMSU in GOE:1.84]. But I cannot find TWELVE anywhere…]”

Additionally, some of have said the 12 signs of the zodiac are the “disciples” of Horus. Even if this were the case, they are just stars and not actual people who followed Horus, preached about him or recorded his life. This is another empty and false claim.

 

“Horus was crucified. Dead for three days. And Resurrected” — There is no historical record in any credible Egyptian mythology of Horus being crucified. Additionally, crucifixion was a method of execution invented by the Roman Empire thousands of years after the time of the Horus myth. Whereas the accounts of Jesus’ crucifixion exist in thousands of manuscripts from the century after his death. Additionally, as we detailed in our article “Did Jesus Really Exist? Proving Jesus without The Bible” there are many secular historical sources that record His crucifixion as described in the Bible.

If you are wondering how Zeitgeist could make such wild claims, that have no real historical evidence, they benefit from the Skeptic’s Fallacy: in short, when it comes to attacking the credibility of the Bible it is assumed that the skeptic is completely credible. So the Zeitgeist creators know most people will not research their attacks and just take it as factual (just as Dan Brown did with the numerous inaccuracies of the DaVinci Code). If one takes the time, they will also notice that Zeitgeist gets almost all of its information from one source, a book called “The Christ Conspiracy” by a woman named Acharya S. (we will address her later).

 

Was Jesus a Copy of Mithras? 

Mithras born from a rock | Was Jesus a copy of Mithras?

Ancient art depicting Mithras being born out of a rock.

Zeitgeist continues as do the skeptics with the idea that Christianity itself is a copy of the cult of Mithras, which was popularized in Rome in the 1st to 4th Century AD (note that it sprung up in Rome after the death of Christ and centuries after the Old Testament prophecies of the Coming Messiah). The movie states:

“Mithras was born of a virgin” — There are almost no early writings about the cult of Mithras and most of what is known is based on artwork (as opposed to Jesus Christ, of whom thousands of ancient manuscripts exist that describe His life, death and resurrection in detail). But according to historians, Mithras was born from a rock, not from a virgin or from a person at all.

“Mithras was born on December 25.” — Once again, the date of December 25th is not mentioned in the Bible and thus holds no significance to the story of Jesus Christ.  Additionally, in Mithraism there is no date of Mithras’ birth.

 

Mithras with shepherds| Was Jesus a copy of Mithras?

Mithras with "shepherds."

“Mithras was attended to by Shepherds” – This claim is based on the relief above. The earliest existing account of Mithras’ birth is found in a relief depicting him emerging from a rock with the assistance of men who certainly appear to be shepherds (which is interesting considering his birth was supposed to have preceded the creation of humans!). Such a blatant inconsistency should show a serious flaw in Mithraism research, but the Zeitgeist team again overlooks this.  Furthermore, this relief dates to 4th century A.D., well after the Gospels had been written and distributed over most of the known world.

Mithras with stars 12 disciples | Was Jesus Christ a copy of Mithras?

Mithras and his "12 disciples."

“Mithra had 12 disciples.” — This is based on the carving above which shows Mithras surrounded by 12 signs of the Zodiac. There is no reason to conclude that signs of the Zodiac are “disciples.” Remember, there is no written record of Mithra’s existence from the 1st to 4th centuries when the cult thrived. The earliest writings are from outsiders recording their observations. So most of the wild assertions of Zeitgeist are just being based on this piece of art. Franz Cumont, considered the first great researcher of Mithras claimed that the disciples in the relief were actually people dressed up as Zodiac signs, showing how ludicrous the effort to link Mithras to Jesus can get.

“Mithras was crucified. Dead for three days. And then resurrected.” — This charge in particular reveals the insincerity of the claims of plagiarism against Christianity. In Mithraism, Mithras never dies. He completed his earthly mission and returned to the skies in a chariot (ironically similar to the story of the Prophet Elijah in the Bible’s Book of 1 Kings, written 800 years earlier). In Mithraism there is no historical mention of crucifixion, burial or resurrection in any artwork or text. In a critique of this theory, researcher Ronald Nash writes:

“Allegations of an early Christian dependence on Mithraism have been rejected on many grounds. Mithraism had no concept of the death and resurrection of its god and no place for any concept of rebirth—at least during its early stages.” In his book Image and Value in the Greco-Roman World, Richard Gordon writes that there is “no death of Mithras,”  and thus there is no resurrection of Mithras.

• Dr. Edwin Yamauchi states: “We don’t know anything about the death of Mithras…We have a lot of monuments, but we have almost no textual evidence, because this was a secret religion. But I know of no references to a supposed death and resurrection.”

 

It is also important to note that for all of the research Franz Cumont did on Mithras, his overriding conclusion was that unlike Jesus Christ, who was a real person, Mithras did not exist.   Thus a basic examination of the factual evidence shows that the Bible did not plagiarize from the story of Mithras.

Was Jesus Christ an Imitation of Dionysis?

Dionysus | Was Jesus Christ a copy of Dionysus?

Dionysus the Greco Roman god of wine.

Dionysus (also known as Bacchus) was a Greek and Roman god of wine. One of the boldest claims of Jesus being a copy of Dionsyus was a book called ‘The Jesus Mysteries’ which featured the amulet pictured below. on its cover. The authors claimed that the amulet was a depiction of the god Dionysus on a cross, and thus, they concluded, Christianity must have copied the crucifixion account from the Greek god. However, upon basic scrutiny, the claim falls apart.

Dionysus amulet on a cross | Was Jesus a copy of Dionysus?

Dionysus pictured on a cross.

The authors of “The Jesus Mysteries”  Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy had their sources for their information critiqued:

When dealing with ancient sources they are even more blatant. On the basis of some third century pictures of crucifixions, the authors claim Bacchuus [Dionysus] was crucified and Christians copied the idea. This is their piece de resistance and they even put one of the pictures on the cover of their book. But suppose there existed an earlier source who stated categorically that no pagan godman was crucified. That would destroy their case and reading the Jesus Mysteries you would assume that neither Freke or Gandy knew of such a source even if it existed. You would be wrong.They quote from Justin Martyr many times about his concerns that pagans and Christians had some similar rituals (they did and modern scholarship is totally unsurprised by this). He is a second century writer who therefore predates all the pictures of pagan godmen being crucified and he writes:

“But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically.” Justin Martyr ’s First Apology LV.

No honest scholar would simply fail to quote this vitally important contradiction to their thesis. Gandy did attempt to explain away this passage when it was presented to him but failed utterly and certainly could not say why he ever felt he could simply miss it out of his book. (source)

Even if the amulet was real, it’s dated to over 300 years after the crucifixion of Christ. By the 4th century tens of thousands of New Testament manuscripts were in circulation all over the world and the Roman Empire made Christianity its official religion. So the story of Christ’s crucifixion was very well-known. Thus the idea that a 4th century amulet was the inspiration for the Crucifixion in the Gospel’s makes no sense. We cited the Roman historian Tacitus who in 115 AD wrote:

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. (source)

So again, the account of Jesus’ crucifixion at the orders of Pontius Pilate, just as the Bible details, was well-known even in non-Christian circles.

“Dionysus was born of a virgin” — Again, this blatantly flies in the face of mythology surrounding this pagan god. The two most common stories of Dionysus’ birth involve the god Zeus, his father, either impregnating the mortal woman Semele, or impregnating Persephone (the Greek Queen of the underworld).  In either instance, it is not a virgin birth (and it also gives allusion to the Bible’s description of fallen angels impregnating human women, something written in the book of Genesis 2,000 years before the myth of Dionysus).

“Dionsysus was born on December 25th” — Once again, there is no pre-Christian manuscript or evidence of this. And of course the date of December 25th is not significant since it’s not in the Bible.  Some point to Dionysus’ ability to create wine as a sign that Jesus was a copy (since Jesus turned water to wine at a wedding) but Dionysus was the god of wine. Jesus was the Son of God and humanity’s Savior. And while there is non-Christian evidence and proof that Jesus existed, there is none to support that Dionysus was a real person who actually existed.  And Jesus Christ was clearly not a copy of Dionysus.

Was Jesus Christ a Copy of Krishna?

 

Krishna | Was Jesus a Copy of Krishna?

The Hindu God Krishna.

As the Devine Evidence blog states:

 

In Hinduism, Krishna is believed to be the eighth avatar of Vishnu, the second aspect of the Hindu trinity. Almost every correlation between Krishna and Jesus can be traced to Kersey Graves, a 19th century author who believed Christianity was created from pagan myths. Though his works have been proven by scholars to be false and poorly researched (Source), many still ignorantly refer to his arguments not knowing they are easily disproved by simply comparing the Bible to the Hindu texts.

Zeitgeist Debunked

“Krishna was born of a virgin named Devaki” — The basic story of Krishna’s origin makes this claim laughable: In mythology researcher Joseph Campbell’s book, Occidental Mythology, he writes of Krishna’s origin:

“In India a like tale is told of the beloved savior Krishna, whose terrible uncle, Kansa, was, in that case, the tyrant-king. The savior’s mother, Devaki, was of royal lineage, the tyrant’s niece, and at the time when she was married the wicked monarch heard a voice, mysteriously, which let him know that her eighth child would be his slayer. He therefore confined both her and her husband, the saintly nobleman Vasudeva, in a closely guarded prison, where he murdered their first six infants as they came.”

So from the basic origin story of Krishna, his mother had seven children before he was born, so she was clearly not a virgin. Additionally, the book of Isaiah, which prophesied that a virgin would give birth to the Messiah of the Bible, was written 700 years before Christ and at least 100 years before Krishna.

“There was Infant massacre in all the land at the time of Krishna’s birth” – In the Gospel accounts, King Herod, upon hearing the Jewish Messiah has been born, orders all Jewish male infants to be killed. Skeptics claim a similar occurrence happened with Krishna but as the account above shows, only his six brothers were killed.

“Krishna was crucified. Died for three days. And was resurrected.” – This again is just a blatant mistruth in the face of Hindu mythology. The explanation of Krishna’s death is stated clearly: ”

“A fierce hunter of the name of Jara then came there, desirous of deer. The hunter, mistaking [Krishna], who was stretched on the earth in high Yoga, for a deer, pierced him at the heel with a shaft and quickly came to that spot for capturing his prey.” Mahabharata, Book 16, 4

Not only was Krishna not crucified, his story sounds much more familiar to the account of the death of Achilles in Greek mythology than the account of Jesus’ crucifixion.

There are later Hindu texts that do draw more close parallels between Jesus Christ and Krishna. But these texts were written centuries after the New Testament. In fact, the Bahagavad Gita, one of the main Holy Books of Hinduism, is now thought by Hindu scholars to have been drastically changed in 800 AD. The present day Bahagavad Gita has 700 verses. The original, called Gita had 84 (imagine the documentaries and books that would be made if it were discovered that the Bible went through such a drastic re-write!).  In the book, The Gita As It Was: Rediscovering the Original Bhagavadgita, the author, Dr. Phulgenda Sinha, writes:

Around 800 A.D. , the original Gita was interpolated and ended up having 700 verses. The name was changed from Gita to Bhagavad Gita. The concept of one single Almighty God, or Supreme, Bhagavan, was introduced to Indian society.

Till then, before 800 A.D., Indians believed in God. But they believed in polytheism. They were also nature worshippers. They worshipped earth, stone, trees, rain, wind, fire, sun, moon etc.

 

Jesus is clearly not an imitation of Krishna and the Bible did not plagiarize pagan gods.  Unlike the New Testament, which has been verified by manuscript evidence to be the most reliable and substantiated document in antiquity, the holy book of Hinduism went through drastic changes centuries after it was written. But of course, the Zeitgesit producers, Acharya S. and Dan Brown ignore all of this just to try to attack the credibility of the Bible. Why? Because they hate the Bible and want to push a Satanic agenda.

 

Who Is Acharya S?

 

Acharya S Christ Conspiracy | Was Jesus a Copy of Pagan Gods?

D.M. Moore, aka Acharya S.

As we mentioned above, almost all of the sources cited by Zietgiest go back to Achraya S., author of “The Christ Conspiracy.” But who is she? First off, her name is Dorothy Murdoch. And in her own writings she cites “D.M. Murdoch” as a source, which is citing herself. This should be a huge red flag to her credibility. She has been debunked and criticized by many serious historical scholars.  But more importantly, where did Acharya S. get the information for her Christ Conspiracy book in the first place? It came from Gerald Massey and Madame H.P. Blavatsky.

Blavatsky, the founder of the Theosophical Society, is one of the main inspirations for the modern New Age Movement. She was also an ardent Luciferian. Blavatsky wrote her books via automatic writing” in which a spirit possessed her and used her body to write her books on mysticism and Luciferian New Age beliefs. Blavatsky believed that through esoteric, occult magical practices, mankind could ascend and evolve to god-like status. All with assistance from “the hierarchy” — angelic beings who could guide those with proper knowledge. This of course is the first lie of Satan in the Garden of Eden, who lured Even into sinning with the promise that “ye shall be as gods..” The idea of achieving godhood and “ascension” is at the heart of the New Age movement today. Those special, enlightened ones could then form a super race that would rule over humanity.
She was a friend of Satanist Aleister Crolwey and her writings inspired Adolf Hitler. Blavatsky makes no secret of her allegiance:

“One of the most hidden secrets involves the so-called fall of Angels. Satan and his rebellious host will thus prove to have become the direct Saviours and Creators of divine man. Thus Satan, once he ceases to be viewed in the superstitious spirit of the church, grows into the grandiose image. It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God. Satan (or Lucifer) represents the Centrifugal Energy of the Universe, this ever-living symbol of self-sacrifice for the intellectual independence of humanity. “(The Secret Doctrine, Volume II, Pages 215, 216, 220, 245, 255, 533).

She was also the publisher of Lucifer Magazine. Massey was a writer for Lucifer magazine.  Her closest student, Alice Bailey, took over the reigns of the Theosophical Society as well as started the publishing company called Lucifer Trust (it is now known as Lucis Trust). Her stated goal was the preparation of the minds of society to receive “the Christ”, who is not Jesus but a great ascend wise master who will unite all the religions of the world, teaching the enlightened followers to godhood, led by the true god, who Bailey openly identifies as Satan. And this is the basis for the information that went into making Zeitgeist. As shown in the video below on the Zeitgeist film, it is pushing the exact same idea.

In The Lost Symbol, Dan Brown also takes the plunge as he proclaims that Christianity is just a spin off of ancient mystery religions. Do not be deceived. For those who are in the “truth movement” or “Anti-New World Order”, these ideas intend to assert that Christianity is just another form of control and was manufactured to manipulate people. But as shown, the charges are ludicrous with the slightest inspection. And at the end of the day, the same people who are putting out the idea of Jesus being a copy of pagan gods all get linked back to the same false god: Satan. This clever deception is helping to usher in the “New Order” that will be led by the Antichrist. Jesus warned of one of the key signs of the end times approaching:

“the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” (Matthew 24:3-5).

 

Unprecedented deception would be a major sign and Zeitgeist, The Lost Symbol and books like the Christ Conspiracy are just a few of the examples. Jesus Christ did exist. Jesus Christ was born of a virgin. Jesus Christ had 12 disciples. Jesus Christ was crucified. But most importantly, Jesus Christ died for you. He chose to die to offer Himself as a sacrifice to pay the debt for the sins of humanity. And He is the only name which can be called on for salvation. It just takes belief in what He did to receive eternal life. Jesus said: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. “ No one else died on a cross for the sins of humanity. Jesus did. And it just takes belief in Him to receive eternal life and be freed from the punishment of hell. Which is why Satan has to work so hard to confuses the public and distort the message of the Bible. No other religious figure receives close to the scrutiny that Jesus does. And yet the Bible still stands as true. So if you now believe that Jesus was not just a copy of a pagan god, maybe it is time to start believing that He is indeed the Son of God who wants to spend eternity with you.

For a full presentation that debunks all of the claims of the Zeitgeist film see below:

And for those who believe that can prove the claims of Zeitgeist there is a chance to win money at the website “Zeitgeist Challenge” (no one has won yet).

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Comments

  1. Great Article. This is exactly why it is hard for some ppl to find the truth, so much disinformation out there. I saw that movie also, but I thought it was stupid. Satan is working overtime right now.

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    • Hi Robin,

      Thanks for your comment. Yes, Zeitgeist is indeed a major misinformation campaign with an agenda. And in their follow up (Zeitgeist Addendum) they reveal their real spiritual agenda. I’m glad you saw through it! God bless.

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      • I read all the comments and replies and have come to a conclusion for all of you. None of you know for sure whether any of it is true. Why feel threatened if Jesus’ myth came from earlier myths? Does it make it less true for you? Different cultures have different stories and interpretations of the same basic story. Faith is believing something when common sense cannot prove it. Virgin birth and resurrection is scientifically impossible. If it was then there would be many such ‘virgin births’ and normal child birth would not have been necessary always. If w are ‘made in gods image’ than Jesus being born in the normal way with an earthly father, also in gods image, should not make a difference. It doesn’t make him any less of a great prophet. Somehow I don’t think that Jesus’ divinity was something that he would want us to fight about so vehemently. Believe if you want but common sense would prove you all wrong at some point. As for the bible. It is a great book filled with many lessons and stories but like any other ‘history’ it was written by men and we are all fallible. Just because someone said it doesn’t make it true. History is written by the victors and they usually write it in their favor to make themselves look better.

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        • The Bible claims to be the ultimate encoded Word of God, written THROUGH men by divine inspiration. The human writers were writing beyond their knowledge limit. Otherwise, it’s full of lies and not valid as an authoritative text. So the question is, if God is God, wouldn’t He have the power to do this, and assure its authenticity?

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          • if god is god then wouldn’t he himself have the power to write and make the bible without the need for writers???

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            • God could have written the Bible without need of human writers. But He didn’t. He apparently thought incorporating human minds and talents was the best method of transmission. Which is consistent with how He works in hearts and minds. Persuasion and proof is from within rather than without.

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    • I researched on the arguments of both sides. You have raised the weakness of the arguments of those who believe on the copycat theory. But the Catholic Encyclopedia admits similarity between Mithra and Jesus, and the Conception of Christ is clearly depicted by the Temple of Luxor which itself a primary source. Both the temple and Mithraism predates Chistianity for at least 208 years, hence it is Christianity that copied from both, i.e., Conception from temple of Luxor and life of Jesus from life of Mithra. In addition, the prophesy of birth of Christ was obtained from corrupted translation of Psalm 22:6 and Isaiah 7:14. Based on the actual translation from Hebrew, the latter says maiden not virgin and the former says “eat my hands and feet” not “nail my hands and feet”. Jupiter was a god to Dionysius as “YHWH” to Jesus. You are just protecting Christianity buy not uncovering the truth. Your loyalty is to Christianity but not the pursuit of truth. You are blind yourself trying to guide us.

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      • Hi James,

        Thanks for your comment. You are making many assertions but you are not providing any sources of your information that prove that Christians copied the Gospel accounts from these pagan religions. Please provide the links to the sources you are researching that state this. I assume you know the Catholic religion is not in line with Biblical Christianity, finds its roots in many pagan practices and thus is not really relevant to this discussion. And even then, similarity is not sameness.

        Additionally, your point on the virgin in Isaiah being “maiden” is refuted by the Septuagint, which is the oldest extant manuscript of the Old Testament. It is also a translation from paleo-Hebrew, the original Hebrew the Old Testament was written in, as opposed to every other version of the Old Testament in existence today, which are translated from Masoretic, squared Hebrew. In the Septuagint the verse states: “behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, “. The Greek word parthenos, means virgin, as in a woman who has never had sexual intercourse. So there is no debate when you go the most reliable and oldest source (not to mention that over 90% of the quotes of the Old Testament by Jesus Christ and the disciples come verbatim from the Septuagint.

        Similarly, in Psalm 22:16 it reads: “..they pierced my hands and my feet.” So again, there is no linguistic debate about the meaning of the text at all.

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        • max.Wright says:

          You said, “You are making many assertions but you are not providing any sources of your information that prove that Christians copied the Gospel accounts from these pagan religions. ”

          He clearly stated: “But the Catholic Encyclopedia admits similarity between Mithra and Jesus, and the Conception of Christ is clearly depicted by the Temple of Luxor which itself a primary source”.

          So I think he did cite a pretty reliable source.

          Coming from a neutral point of view, this site and your arguments are clearly slanted.

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          • Science derives from the visible things whereas Faith derives from invisible things which are to the Spirit for matters of the Spirit is not know but invariably forms the basis of things even Life. With regard to creation the Bible states “The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” to the universe being created by the Spirit in turn to manifest in the physical called & through Time. For when by science a brilliant Scientist declares there is no god & where he knows nothing about matters of the Spirit unto the Origins he becomes what the Bible calls “A fool says there is no god”. Which is but to conclude that all things are off the Spirit like Jesus saying on the cross “It is Finished” to the accomplishment in the Spirit come of the Prophecy of Daniel 12: 7 , to invariably manifest in the Physical in its time which time the Bible says only the Father(The Father of Spirits) knows, for God is Spirit & to worship Him is in the ” Spirit & Truth”.

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          • Parallels between Horus and Jesus
            The sun-god Horus was worshipped nearly 1,000 years before the story of Jesus. Many researchers have pointed out parallels between Jesus and Horus, as well as other sun gods. This controversial theory that Yeshua ben Joseph’s life is a story derived from the life events of the Egyptian Neter Horus has been debated in scholastic circles for many years. There are 46 parallels between their lives. Here are 13 of them:
            1. Both were conceived of a virgin.
            2. Both were the “only begotten son” of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)
            3. Horus’s mother was Meri, Jesus’s mother was Mary.
            4. Horus’s foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus’s foster father was Joseph.
            5. Both foster fathers were of royal descent.
            6. Both were born in a cave (although sometimes Jesus is said to have been born in a stable).
            7. Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel. Horus’s birth was heralded by the star Sirius (the morning star). Jesus had his birth heralded by a star in the East (the sun rises in the East).
            8. Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.
            9. Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.
            11. Horus was visited at birth by “three solar deities” and Jesus was visited by “three wise men”.
            12. After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
            13. To hide from Herut, the Neter Thoth tells Isis, “Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child.” To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to “arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt.”

            Mark Amaru Pinkham writes about this comparison and others in his book The Truth Behind the Christ Myth. http://www.gnostictemplars.org/books.html

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            • “Get thee behind me satan” is what Jesus told the devil, for satan had the habit of jumping ahead to say the untruth come in parallelism before the truth, so to the many similarities-means nothing when it comes to the Truth, however after Christ, things changed, now coming in parallel behind Christ. To the words of Christ ‘ For if any come in his own name , him you will receive”. For all things are brought in their times appointed, to which is Christ, unlike that jumping jack, always jumping catching women first.

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              • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                Hi Abey
                I think you will find the quote ‘Get thee behind me, Satan.’ was not referring to Satan. Below I have copied the 1588 edition of my old Bible, and the 1611, king James Bible, in both bibles, Jesus was referring to his so-call number one disciple, Peter.
                Mathew 16: 23 Ond trodd Iesu, a dweud wrth Pedr, “Dos o’m golwg i Satan! Rwyt ti’n rhwystr i mi; rwyt ti’n meddwl fel mae pobl yn meddwl yn lle gweld pethau fel mae Duw’n eu gweld nhw.”[Fersiwn Beibl Cymraeg/ Welsh Bible Version (WBV) of 1588]
                The English version:
                Matthew 16: 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.[KJV of 1611] .

                Cofion (Regards)

                Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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                • Thank You Jero, I am use to her attacking me in underlying way. She never has anything nice to say, everyone is Satan or false spirits and harlots and women should be submissive. I have yet for Abey to ever come at anyone with Love and Understanding or any kind of compassion… it more of that same kinda spirit from the Crusades! It always judgmental and if you do post anything that can prove otherwise this is when she attacks. It must be Satan or an unclean spirit within you!! I swear Satan gets more credit from her than Jesus!! I love reading your stuff Jero,you are so knowledgeable, thank you for sticking around in this site..

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                  • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                    Hi Rosa
                    Thanks you for you nice comments, however, I wouldn’t worry to much about Satan, or the Devil or even Lucifer, as they are Pagan myths that the early Christians Church adopted to keep their adherents in mortal fear. Satan or the many names associated with this so-called evil, came from early primitive sources, and came to Christianity, via the Hebrew Bible. According to Elaine Pagels in her work, wrote: the church later turned this satanic indictment against its Roman enemies, declaring that pagans and infidels were also creatures of Satan, and against its own dissenters, calling them heretics and ascribing their heterodox views to satanic influences.['The Origin of Satan]

                    Cofion (Regards)

                    Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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                  • “For they(jews) said crucify him” Now that is called Judgemental arising out of hatred such that they even placed His blood on their heads & upon their children & now go about calling “Hashim”, for it need to be known that this hashim is not the one who appeared unto Moses at the mountain at Horeb. For one deceived deceives other.s.

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                  • I agree. Any time there is someone who has proof against any of this it is always Satan who is doing it. I think only weak religions have to use the satan card.

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                • Those words of Jesus was addressed to satan is but to know that satan followed up his own words through others against the will of God, even now speaking through you.against Christianity.. claiming researches.

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                  • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                    Hi abey
                    As I said, Satan, Devil, or Lucifer, are but concocted stories from a pre-Christian era, contrived by the church to deceive and put fear in the hearts of its indoctrinate followers. If there was such an evil entity such as the Devil aka Satan aka Lucifer, then the author of this quote is surely amongst my top 10 contestants for the job.
                    “I do further promise and declare, that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do and to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth, and that I will spare neither sex, age nor condition and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants’ heads against the wall, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race.”
                    — Pope Paul III, 1576
                    The other 9 contestants are also sufferers of sebastomania, and care nothing for humanity, and who are the greatest evil to mankind.
                    I am personally indebted to all the ancient and not so ancient scholars and writers of history, who put pen to paper to inform posterity through knowledge, of the wickedness and deceit of the early church-father and descendent through history.

                    Cofion (regards)
                    Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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                • The hebrew word satan that they translated this from means opposition. So when used it is not a being like christians make it out to be. It is a word not a being.

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                  • Only a being can be in opposition & Opposition to what ? “In the beginning was the “Word” & the word was with God & the word was God” . Now you say satan is word & Lo you have made satan into god, your god – Imported from eden ?

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                • Jero and Rosa you just made my day :) Thank you

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              • I agree. Any time there is someone who has proof against any of this it is always Satan who is doing it. I think only weak religions have to use the satan card.

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                • Genia: You better watch out Satan is your God Now …LOL How does adversity and opposition correct translation turn into a God!! Ahahahahah wow what a Hoot

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        • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon
          Hi BE
          I comment on your comment on James and your use of the Septuagint as a reference!
          I see the Septuagint as being quoted as and authority, well I don’t want to dash the beliefs of the avid Christians, but everything about Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament is shrouded in spurious mythologies
          The Septuagint/LXX/Greek Old Testament, is fraudulently attested to be published in the reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (reign 283-246 BCE) as pertained in the ‘Letter of Aristeas’ is assigned by biblical scholars to the pseudepigrapha. The Letter is full of anachronisms, especially about the events, the author vividly describes, etc. The Jewish scholar Tcherikover wrote: “Modern scholars commonly regard the “Letter of Aristeas” as a work typical of Jewish apologetics, aiming at self-defense and propaganda, and directed to the Greeks. Here are some instances illustrating this general view. In 1903. Friedlander wrote that the glorification of Judaism in the letter was no more than self-defense, though “the book does not mention the antagonists of Judaism by name, nor does it admit that its intention is to refute direct attacks.” Stein sees in the letter “a special kind of defense, which practices diplomatic tactics,” and Tramontano also speaks of “an apologetic and propagandist tendency.” Vincent characterizes it as “a small unapologetic novel written for the Egyptians” (i.e. the Greeks in Egypt). Pheiffer says: “This fanciful story of the origin of the Septuagint is merely a pretext for defending Judaism against its heathen denigrators, for extolling its nobility and reasonableness, and first striving to convert Greek speaking Gentiles to it.” Schürer classes the letter with a special kind of literature, “Jewish propaganda in Pagan disguise,” whose works are “directed to the pagan reader, in order to make propaganda for Judaism among the Gentiles.” Andrews, too, believes that the rôle of a Greek was assumed by Aristeas in order “to strengthen the force of the argument and commend it to non-Jewish readers. And even Gutman, who rightly recognizes that the Letter sprang ‘from an inner need of the educated Jew,’ sees in it ‘a strong means for making Jewish propaganda in the Greek world.’ ”[The Ideology of the Letter of Aristeas, by V. Tcherikover, Harvard Theological review 51,2 (April 1958) pp.59-60]
          On the anomalies of translation between the Septuagint and Christian New Testament versus the Hebrew Old Testament, Metropolitan Kallistos of Diokleia, in his book, wrote: ‘The Orthodox Church has the same New Testament as the rest of Christendom. As its authoritative text for the Old Testament it uses the ancient Greek translation known as the Septuagint. Where this differs from the Hebrew text (which happens quite often), Orthodox believe that the changes in the Septuagint were made under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and are to be accepted as part of God’s continuing revelation.’ [The Orthodox Church, p. 208, by Kallistos (Timothy) Ware, Penguin 1963 ed.] Like a true Christian, the Metropolitan blames the spurious translation anomalies, as the work of God! A God who is infallible, who is correct in the Hebrew and correct in the Greek translations, it must be man who is fallible and is reading the scriptures wrong!
          A nineteenth century study of 275 New Testament passages by the biblical scholar D. M. Turpie concluded that the New Testament, the Septuagint and the Hebrew text all agree in only about 20% of the quotations. Of the 80% where some disagreement occurs, fewer than 5% agree with the Hebrew against the Septuagint. These figures show just how heavily the New Testament writers used the Greek version of the Old Testament and how significant the Septuagint was for the emerging Christian Church.[D. M. Turpie, The OT in the New (1868)]
          The Septuagint (the name Septuagint did not appear till 2nd century CE), is invariably mentioned, but, before the late 2nd or early 3rd century in the common era, the Septuagint was basically known as the Torah. On the virgin controversy (Isaiah 7:14) the original Hebrew/Aramaic word in use was ha-almah, young woman, etc. If the Jewish scribe(s) wanted virgin, I am sure they would have emphasised the word bethulah. Even the Greek word parthenos, which is read as meaning virgin, was used by the Greek scholar Homer, who refer to non-married and non-virgin women as parthenos.[Iliad 2.514; Aristophanes, Nubes 530] It had its meaning change at a later date during the Christian era to mean virgin, which is the case fro today!
          Regards

          Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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          • Hi Jero,

            I can only say respectfully that I disagree with your entire argument. Over 90% of the quotes of the Old Testament by The Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostles come from the Septuagint, verbatim. It was clearly the Bible of the Christian Church in the 1st century.

            As for the “virgin controversy” the text of the Bible itself disproves your theory:

            “30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” Luke 2:30-35.

            By her own testimony, Mary was clearly a virgin. So there is no confusion as to whether the word “virgin” means a woman who has not had relations or a “young woman.” The text itself always serves as the primary source of the definition of one of its own terms.

            Oh and by the way – I am still waiting for your evidence of the “countless millions” you claimed were burned at the stake. What was your source on this?

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            • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon, and Hi
              Hi beginning and End
              I am sorry that you disagree with my comments, however, it is to be expected that apologetics, the church, and Christians on mass, reject all thing academic or critical of Christianity. You will see from my comment that I used citations, and for authenticity of the Septuagint, I use the words and writings of His Excellency, The Most Reverend (Greek Orthodox) Metropolitan Kallistos of Diokleia. I cannot go higher in the hierarchy of a Christian church. This is the quote I used on the question of authenticity of the Septuagint, by the scholar and Senior cleric, The Metropolitan who quoted: ‘The Orthodox Church has the same New Testament as the rest of Christendom. As its authoritative text for the Old Testament it uses the ancient Greek translation known as the Septuagint. Where this differs from the Hebrew text (which happens quite often), Orthodox believe that the changes in the Septuagint were made under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and are to be accepted as part of God’s continuing revelation.’ [The Orthodox Church, p. 208, by Kallistos (Timothy) Ware, Penguin 1963 ed.] Which was quoted in conjunction with another Biblical scholar’s D.M. Turpie’s citation, on the veracity of the Septuagint, who concluded that only 20% of its entirety was useful. He quoted:… the New Testament, the Septuagint and the Hebrew text all agree in only about 20% of the quotations. Of the 80% where some disagreement occurs, fewer than 5% agree with the Hebrew against the Septuagint.[D. M. Turpie, The OT in the New (1868)]
              I can now respectfully disagree on your 90% or so quotes from the Bible, such as Luke 2:30-35.
              Christian apologetics have taken no heed to scholars of academia/Biblical scholars, etc., who have through research concluded that the four Gospels were not written by the named apostles, but by Greek scholars in early 2nd century. As I have pointed out the 80% anomaly with the Septuagint, the bible of today has its origin in the earl 5th century, with Jerome’s publication of the Vulgate in 405. And throughout its history the Bible has spurious additions (Interpolations) to its gospels, that scholars have stated that the Bible of today is five time removed in translation from its supposed original, an original that scholars attest is not extant.

              Regards
              Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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              • Just wanted to add my 2 cents again.

                I am not a politician for or against anyone’s beliefs, which in my experience, is nothing but a belief unless it is experienced. Even that gets tricky if *you* haven’t experienced what *I* have, as it were.

                I digress.

                To give an authoritarian credibility to any of this, without *being there*, witnessing, is beside anything that can be quoted, though it is, isn’t it? I would be quoting someone else’s quote who may or may not have *been there*, .As far as I would know the quote could have been misunderstood, misinterpreted as it was transcribed from language to language. Suffice it to say, to say the bible is THE LIVING WORD OF GOD when one doesn’t know who its authors are/were is certainly not convincing. Besides if Isaac were holding a knife above his son’s head, hopefully police would be called and if he’d say *God told me to do it*… well…. he just might be given meds.

                I digress.

                In the years since I’ve been reared as a Catholic…. Divorce which was allowed only by a Vatican stamp of approval (hmmm wonder what that cost) to divorces now rampant just like any other religious practitioners (Catholic Divorced Clubs anyone?). This pope does not distance himself from alternate lifestyles while condemning pedophile priests. Nor is it not a likelihood that priests will marry (Orthodox priests now, do and always have). Maybe abortion might even be granted special consideration that it is a woman’s body and men have no say-so in that since they cannot get pregnant and carry a child…

                Well, you might see how the Church does evolve, depending on its leaders. Which is to say, that depending on the early church is how its leaders saw the works of the man called Jesus, if indeed he existed other than a man who was quite a rebel an maybe saw himself and his version of God as being inseparable.

                I’ve seen weirder things written in the bible like the coincidence of myths.

                ~

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                • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi Anna Ruiz
                  Sorry for the delay in returning to your comment, old age and diabetes is to blame.
                  On belief, or to believe in something supernatural or religious, I think that is part of human nature, handed down through generations from our Stone-Age ancestors, who believed that nightfall brought danger in the form of demons, and boggy-men, etc. A trait the early church latched-on to keep their devotees in check. And you are right to say a woman’s body is her own, and that no man, and especially a religion has no say in what a woman does to her body. Life would be far safer if all priest were to marry, it would also be prudent for all religions, to vet all priestly candidates, before allowing them near children, or vulnerable people, etc. This is not a 21st century epidemic, sexual deviancy has been rife in the church since at least c. 306, when the Synod of Elvira introduced new canons on sexual abuse. Canon 18, from the council of Elvira, written some 1700 years ago on Paedophilia/sexual abuse, read: 18, Bishops, presbyters, and deacons, once they have taken their place in the ministry, shall not be given communion even at the time of death if they are guilty of sexual immorality. Such scandal is a serious offence.

                  Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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            • @Beginning and End, You Said:

              “By her own testimony, Mary was clearly a virgin” (Luke 2:30 – 35)

              Question: Do you ReAlLY THiNK that is Mary’s Testimony in Luke?

              Because it is so obviously NOT Mary’s Testimony. Most people think
              it is Luke’s Testimony. But that isn’t even possible to be known either
              because All 4 Gospels are actually written by Anonymous Authors!

              Matt Dillahunty reads it straight out of the NIV here in this video:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o46tfot3MkI#t=1m58s

              Also, the 2 stories of the birth totally contradict each other:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oli0DTmPmGU

              Also, we don’t even know what year the so-called virgin birth occurred in:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOpMs_c6U2g

              Plus, the 2 accounts of Jesus’s Genealogy are Different from each other:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfYBo6R0Cjo

              I could go on and on about other Buy-Bull Flaws, Forgeries, Contradictions, Absurdities, Immoralities and Historical Inaccuracies… But instead I’ll stay
              objective in regards to your claim about the virgin birth. -> What a joke! >:D

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              • Noswaith Dda/Good Evening and Hi.
                Hi SkepticalViewsDOTCom, that a bit of a mouthful. Like you I am a sceptic, especially when Christianity is involved, for more than five decades of training as an ymchwilydd hanes (history researcher), one has to check all ancient sources such as Pagan, Jewish, Greek, and Critical, etc., as well as early Christian. The Greek philosopher Celsus (fl. 2nd Century) was a Greek philosopher, and early opponent of Christianity. His work is lost to posterity, owing to Christians burning all his manuscripts, however, Origen (c. 182-c. 253) an early church-father, produced Celsus work in his own writings “Contra Celsus.” Through Origen’s work we see that Celsus was not a friend of Christianity, however, he was a philosopher and a scholar. He wrote this of Jesus and his mother Mary: “You, sir, have invented your birth from a virgin! You, Jesus, were born in a certain Jewish village, of a poor woman of the country, who gained her subsistence by spinning. When she was pregnant she was turned out of doors by the carpenter to whom she had been betrothed, as having been convicted as guilty of adultery, and she bore a child to a certain soldier named Panthera. After being driven away by her husband, and wandering about for a time, she disgracefully gave birth to Jesus, who, brought up as an illegitimate child, having hired himself out as a servant in Egypt on account of his poverty, and having there acquired the knowledge of certain miraculous powers, on which the Egyptians greatly pride themselves, returned to his own country, highly elated on account of them, and by means of those powers proclaimed himself a god.[The True Discourse, retrieved on 28/12/2013 from
                http://www.thephora.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-73138.html
                This soldier Panthera or Pantera mentioned is also mentioned in traditional Jewish sources, and in 1859, a gravestone was found in Germany with the inscription:

                Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera
                from Sidon, aged 62 years
                served 40 years, former standard bearer (?)
                of the First Cohort of Archers
                lies here.[http://robinhl.com/2011/11/06/jesus-son-of-pantera/]

                Many scholars believe that this is the Roman soldier mentioned in the Babylonian Talmud, folio 104b, and other Talmud folio’s, as he is of the right age and served in Judaea before going to Germany.
                The City of Sidon, which today is a coastal city in south Lebonon, which lies west of Galilee.
                I hope this information will assist you in scepticism and lead you on the righteous path!
                On another note, a village about 20 miles from my home has this name:
                Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, now that a mouthful for an e-mail address! In English it means “St Mary’s church in the hollow of the white hazel near to the fierce whirlpool and the church of St Tysilio of the red cave.”

                Cofion (Regards)

                Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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              • Do not be surprised at the word “Virgin” these days in the west to the Scythian culture , but in those days Virginity to the words “Virgin” was common among the women. there.

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      • So is it a virgin or just an unmarried young maiden…Study all the translation not just one!!!!
        Yeshayah 7:14
        Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
        14 Therefore Hashem Himself shall give you an ot (sign); Hinei, HaAlmah (the unmarried young virgin) shall conceive, and bear Ben, and shall call Shmo Immanu El (G-d is with us)without a husband.
        Catholic translation: 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman[a] is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.
        Jewish Bible [b]Therefore Adonai himself
        will give you people a sign:
        the young woman* will become pregnant,
        bear a son and name him ‘Immanu El

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      • Pilgrims_Progrs says:

        James… research the beginnings and the foundation of Catholicism and you will realize that you cannot use their “Bible” for comparison since its a perverted faith or sect of Christianity…. do YOUR research.

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        • Seems to me this question has been asked and answered. Folks tend to believe what they want to believe until the matter of who the believer is asked and answered.

          In any case, using the bible to prove the biblical interpretation of who is and was and wasn’t and isn’t seems to be not the same as using a torn to remove a thorn.

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    • Akil Lanton says:

      Jesus is God You believe in your subconcious mind that Jesus is God
      Romans 1:25

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  2. I have never seen this movie you speak of But if you are so blind that you can not see the truth with your own eyes then I truly feel sorry for you. Jesus is a mish- mash of stories from other religions just as all other stories in the bible are… The Bible was written by men, several men over hundreds of years and each time it was re-written the person paying for the book interjected a little more in to it. The stories, all stories in the bible are reworked from hundreds and sometimes thousands of years before the birth of Christianity. It is no coincidence that all of the 3 big religions began at the same time on the same spot they just stole their ideas from a Pharaoh named Akhenaton who was the first to worship a monotheistic god. please check your fact before you state your semi-truths and theories are the beginning and end

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    • Hey Rip,

      Thanks very much for your comments. I just wanted to address some of the things you said:

      1. The story of Jesus is a mish-mash — What historical studies are you basing this on? Which religious figure is Jesus a copy of? I would certainly not any of the ones described above. Moreover, Jesus, from non-Biblical sources, has been clearly proven to be a real person who existed and not just a mythological deity. See our article here for more information on this.

      2. The Big 3 religions began at the same time on the same spot: The first 5 books of the Bible, which are also the first books of the Jewish Torah, date back to 1500 BC. Christianity was founded in ca. 32 AD. The Koran of Islam was written in approximately 625 AD. So I think it’s clear that they did not start at the same time (nor the same place for that matter).

      3. Do you have any evidence of the “Big 3″ religions stealing from Pharaoh Akhenaton?

      I welcome your response. God bless.

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      • Keep the faith man. Don’t waste your time questioning or thinking. Jesus is the only truth, all the other religions just fooled people.

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        • I think he has every right to question and think. If jesus died for us on the cross to give us the gift of life then apart of that gift is to experience life for our selves and respecting the opinions including religious belief of another is also apart of the good deeds of life – that is what god would want for us all. Think about it.

          Also, Many stories of the old testament were written way before the birth of Jesus to name but a few yet there are so many simalarities, I really enjoyed reading the old testament.

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          • Hi Griffo,

            I absolutely respect other religions and readily defend everyone’s right to choose their faith, whatever it may be. That does not mean I find them to be valid from a spiritual standpoint. Jesus Christ said: I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. – John 14.6 So it’s not my opinion on Christianity. Jesus declared Himself the exclusive way to Heaven. Once again, it is your choice to believe or not believe that but that is the standard that Jesus set Himself.

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        • Don’t waste your time questioning and thinking?! HA! Lord have mercy. What a waste of time THINKING is. Point goes to: The other guys.

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      • Lawn Statesman says:

        I do like this post as I agree that their are many inaccuracies taking the zeitgeist movie seriously. However to disillusion yourself into factually believing that any religion is not a grouping of older stories and legends that manifest into a cohesive cultural position is just being poorly actuated to anthropological understanding. Even the book of Issiah previously mentioned is and was at one point a passing of previous concepts, that manifested into a finalized story. Their truth is there were tons of individualized Hebrew stories that were not only discarded but were chosen to not be in what was the augmentation of the bible. I find it very interesting that by Hebrew teachings say Jesus was a man, but did not preform special “god-power,” but was still a man of god. Christians like to overlook that there is a wonderful 70 year gap between the events described and the main forming of the bible. I am not saying that Jesus didn’t exist but the idea that he might have been a exaggerated philosopher of new ideals into the Hebrew culture, which had been starting through Roman occupation to be more affiliated with the more taboo things of glorification of ancient Rome. Greed and other things that Solomon taught against and selfish pride and activation were rampant. Even if we go off the story of Jesus with the Jewish Merchants when he losses his temper. That gap gave a substantial amount of time for exaggeration. Not to mention that the very people who condemned him seem to have no recollection of the rebirth and raising of Christ. Also no Roman ever mentions the ascension just the note of yeah we killed that guy. The fact is that all religions have come from earlier forms and meld with the transfer of cultures. This is shown in the uniting of Egypt and the conjoining of most major deities of both lower and upper Egypt. As well as the Etruscan death rituals that melded with Roman adoption of the Greek lineage even with the early Romans slowly convincing themselves that they were descendents of the Trojan’s (almost no anthropological evidence to aide their opinion) to name a few. The fact is that tribal turns to local, which in turn goes to societal and a cohesion of all the tribal gods that represented those ideals become accepted (especially shown throughout Hinduism) and then by societal are rebuked by ideals of monotheism. One idea is that society got big, war becoming intrinsically more large scale and scary, people could not find dualism in the hard to answer questions of how is he benevolent if he can hurt me by personal characteristic. This made the transition to monotheism easy as like zeitgeist Paul was preaching an argument. One with so many facts it was easy to counter the arguments. We now have tons of cultures with tons of religions how do you pick between the cults in Rome denounce the other religions as iconic demons that have tricked you for centuries, and remove their traits from your idol. Use Jewish legends that are monotheistic and cohesive with the group of your savior, during the hermetic revolution when we were combining religions to explain them. All religions are cohesive the principles of Christianity in the new testament argue and dis way against previous religions, this means they used previous religions as a format of what not to do. So you still used their principles you still used their terms they used, and you still define the idol in the same reference just singularly. This is why the three modern religions Buddhism,Christianity, and Islam are more defined in moral action but weak in a cosmological point of view. (Buddhism being a minor exception but still applies only because of previous Vedic doctrines being excepted into the ideals through the change over of religious rule, but makes their universal view extremely complicated as their cosmos to individual doesn’t match to the new scientific ideas such as their astrology ideas and other such practices that were extremely important, where as Hindu mythology is so vague and paradoxically perfect it can fit most topics but the gods themselves become a contradiction to the new view). This along with the loss of structure writing understanding leads to most the controversies. The oldest versions of the bible and torah have structure writing that meant story, or lesson, or moral but through translation that was discarded as it was seen as unnecessary although to most fundamentalists that would defeat their entire legitimacy proposal. We need to learn from the religions for what they are, like the ancient mystery schools lets move to the next conscious point of questioning, like the ancients we should find the best way to adapt from our many teachings, and while zeitgeist is a historical train-wreck the concept is founded, by the fact of religious upheaval taking p residence to the exact ancient teachings. Even if by unlikely-hood aliens even were the gods we speak of in every book or depiction our understanding would be a fragmentation of their truth, not to mention the fact that they would have been exploiting us. So In my opinion the argument should leave both the transcendental and real realms and find a ground of moral magnitude through romanticizing thought, and achieving greatness by activating sciences for higher societal purposes. (AKA your i-phone is achievement for the internet structure and communicating abilities it has not for the personal access to these things. Otherwise they are just as big of hindrances for a large portion of society. Where as it is a building point to augmented reality which will benefit us all by removing factual base into records). Or otherwise put: the pyramids, Machu pichu, and all the ancient sites show a clear integration of all aspects of their own culture into a whole societal concept that built and made wonders. Our sky scrappers will be a blemish on our mark if they even make it to another sentient finding them.

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        • Hi Lawn,

          Thanks for your post. I guess like others before I will simply ask you to provide evidence of a historical source that says that the Biblical authors stole the content of the Bible from other religions. Where is your data? So far no one has provided any real evidence. Zeitgeist had to provide “proof” in the form of a pseudo-academic who has done completely shoddy work. The sad thing on top of this is that Jesus’ life is really not that similar to Krishna, Buddha Mithras or Horus at all. It’s just that this idea has been said over so many times, it starts to “feel right” in the psyche.

          “Christians like to overlook that there is a wonderful 70 year gap between the events described and the main forming of the bible..”

          first off, many historians would say that the earliest Gospel book was written 30-40 years after the death of Jesus. Secondly, a 70 year gap is an incredibly short amount of time for a figure from antiquity. When you look at the accounts of Julius Ceasar, Alexander the Great or other legendary people of that era (whose histories I am sure you trust and believe completely) the time from their deaths to the manuscripts chronicling their lives – it took centuries for them to be written. IN the case of Caesar it was 1,000 years before the earliest manuscript about his life was written. And again, do you doubt Caesar’s existence or the truth behind the account of the Gallic wars?

          Christianity is not about moral action. It is about Jesus Christ, God incarnate, who died for the sins of humanity. And it is only through faith in Him for the forgiveness of our sins that we receive salvation. Jesus said: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”(John 6:40). I hope and pray you consider God’s offer of free forgiveness.

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          • Lawn Statesman says:

            I am confiding here that this topic is even above siting as there is no one individual idea here to site (You kind site the Mithra statues but not there intent). It is off of positional dissidence that the need to site even comes from. Please understand that I am not saying you can’t site this information it is more of the factor that what you are questioning me on is concept. I can bring up a ton of examples including some Zeitgeist didn’t even think to include especially with the Norse angle (which personally I think they ignored as the material they could get might fight against their cause). So I would be forever site adhered to sources that both of us could be right or wrong on. So unless you got Phidias to ask if the Parthenon’s geometries were on purpose there will forever be an argument for he did it on accident, even though that is extremely unlikely.

            1.Christians are one hundred percent on board with the idea that the anthropological idea of diffusion for religion makes sense from tribal to modern position on all religions besides Christianity. If I had posited the idea in based on Hinduism or tribal practice and taboo moving into societal shamanism, diffusion is allowed in the christian mindset. But that last step from polytheist paganism into the modern conclusion denounces diffusion saying it is divine transcript and is original. I am not only going to target the Christian’s on this either however as all religions do this without fail even down to tribal. I am right because that was taught to me, even though if I was born in Iraq I would probably be fighting that battle on a Muslim perspective. So what I am saying is that if you believe all the other religions functioned off of this activity what made Christianity special?

            2. As for the 70 years comment that was my least researched piece of my argument and I do find honest conviction on your statement to the degree of chronicling their achievements. However the raw data is a different story… One of my friends makes the joke a king of Judea couldn’t let one fly without recording it during this time period. I am just saying in an age of date recording as a ritualized habit where is records of him doing miracles, I am agreeing that there is dissidence in long term recording, but those records had other resources. Logs, date books, and verbal tradition seems to be lacking when it comes to the new testament. I am not saying that Jesus wasn’t a living person because your right by literary tradition I am taking on the faith of the academic writer that this guy existed as a scholar, but that is still debatable. What I am getting at is that Alexander the Great had Persian’s writing about him, Greeks, and Egyptian scholars. I mean there are even roman scholars that are using Gaelic sources in their documents about the Gallic wars as propaganda. The New Testament only has one sited source the bible… and that is where we run into problems. I mean the Vedic scholars don’t get to keep the early centuries of people living that they qualify, because we haven’t found evidence for earlier development and there are no other sources to pull from. So I can not allow for a single site, when the only other single sites in history have been fiction or unverifiable so we do not accept them as fact. If we do it is only as a loose term that may be incorrect.
            I mean think about it if Jesus is turning water into wine everybody is talking about it. Roman priests about how he is a demon, the Greek counterpart on how he is a great philosopher, and we find nothing. David Copperfield still gets huge press when we know its fake. Why did no Roman records, no Jewish records, and no town records show even the first ever plus one back on to the census for Lazarus’s return. It would have been a huge ordeal that was documented by many people. Even if it was just by locality (if we have those documents is another story but we have quite a bit).

            3. To sum up my response, siting here runs us into a gambit of artifacts and symbolism. Both have proven factually almost impossible to define without comment sections by the people who left them, and even then the metaphorical wording of our ancestors gives us multifaceted ideas on what they meant. Especially when we see that almost everything they did to display their idols was symbolically, numerically, and culturally definite, and we still see discrepancy in even the most recorded and basic of items. I am truly arguing concept and that is all, as the standard I am using is what the anthropological community has accepted. On highly scrutinized overview because of the damage that religion imputed into the first anthropological ideas. I do not dissuade you from your opinion off of religion, I simply pose that the several thousand years of constructing the old testament even has more site-able sources including Egyptian, and Now with the discoveries of the Hittite sites and the what is left of Babylonian structure. Why do the legends that do without a doubt have some historical backing based on archaeological findings still have more credibility than the New testament… We found things. We have not found any artifact that pertains to the saga of Jesus, I am only saying that if Siddhartha would have changed water into wine the Ascetic’s would have been screaming that he was a demon of abundance… or proclaiming that he was right and adopted him and museum-ed the bottle it took place in.

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            • Debating how we get religions that exist today just is not that compelling without evidence. And now you are saying evidence isn’t necessary for this discussion. I don’t see how we can have this talk otherwise. Many others have said “I can cite tons of sources that show Christianity copied other religions.” So cite them. Where is this evidence everyone is talking about but not presenting? At some point we have to see it so we can all evaluate it and make a decision from there.

              Your comment that Caesar had all these different people writing about him. Who are they? Again, when it comes to actual extant manuscripts, in existence today regarding Caesar, they are from 1,000 years after his death. So the notion that there all these documents around from his contemporaries and we have original copies is not true at all. And again, I would just ask that you provide some evidence of the contrary if I am wrong. It’s only because of pop culture, movies and TV that it feels like there would be lots of evidence of the life of Julius Caesar from his own time since his biography is always presented as 100% fact even though the proof is from way after he lived.

              You won’t find artifacts of Jesus as you would of gods of other religions because Bible-believing Christians and Jews know that making idols is a sin (it’s the second commandment). And as far as people raving about Jesus’ miracles, remember that Jesus was born a Jew living in Roman-controlled Judea. He was not someone who had worldwide acclaim. He lived in a small part of the world and during his ministry never left it. He was not on the radar of the Roman Empire and was despised by the local religious leadership, who more than anything sought to discredit him. You say the New Testament only cites the Bible. Well it’s a religious book, it’s not going to cite other secular sources. And historians like Flavius Josephus cited the Bible repeatedly.

              Again, if you have evidence to present please share it. I’m happy to check it out. But with all due respect, just speculating on history is not the best way to figure this issue out. Thanks again for your comments.

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              • Blackjesus343 says:

                if you compare jesus on a one on one basis with any of these mythological figures of course jesus comes out looking unique by comparison. you state one difference between the two figures and claim it debunks the entire assertion. the story of jesus was adopted from many different religions. the virgin birth is not unique to christianity, the ressurection isnt either. none of these concepts are new things by the time you get to christianity. the story of jesus took concepts of many religions and put them all together to create a super god. Also the caesar thing, extant manuscripts detailing his entire life did not exist until an entire 1000 years afterwards, that much is true. the difference is, those manuscripts were written by people who collected the current writings of that time period. journals diaries, log books, recordings that were all written contemporaneously were thus subsequently accumulated in order to write down as accurately as possible a biography on the life of caesar. thats the difference.

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                • There is a term called ” release a fast number “meaning put out a bluff . In the name Jesus there is not any number, unlike yours, where the term release refers to a Gaseous state. For the truth is a like a sword that pierces the untruth & that which pierces hurts & as a result produces gases too.

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          • Blackjesus343 says:

            Also, who cares if jesus was made up? does that change anything at all? if you take the story of jesus, and all the stories of the bible for that matter, and look upon them as metaphors instead of factual prehistory, does that diminish their significance at all? people still read greek mythology not because they believe it but because it offers us a lesson that transcends the ages. the bible stories are all just fables that offer a unique kind of wisdom to mankind. Its like the 3 little pigs, does the story need to be proven to be real for there to be a significance to its larger meaning?

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            • Hi BlackJesus,

              Thanks for your comments. Your point however shines the light on the wrong subject. It was Zeitgeist that was a complete and utter fabrication. It’s section on Christianity was full of poor scholarship and just flat out mistruths. I am curious as to why you do not take issue with it. The real question to ask is why the producers and writers of Zeitgeist did this in the first place? What was their agenda? Clearly it was beyond trying to proclaim that Christianity is all fables. It was a concerted, premeditated effort to discredit the Bible and deceive people with their historical inaccuracies. I am curious as to your thoughts on this.

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              • Also, the Bible clearly rejects any consideration of such a notion.

                16 For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, a voice came to Him from the Majestic Glory: This is My beloved Son. I take delight in Him! 18 And we heard this voice when it came from heaven while we were with Him on the holy mountain.

                19 So we have the prophetic word strongly confirmed. You will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dismal place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 First of all, you should know this: no prophecy of Scripture comes from one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the will of man; instead, moved by the Holy Spirit, men spoke from God. (2Peter 1:16-21, HCBS)

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                • For every Biblical Prophecy there is its revelation & to every revelation there is its significance & in this case to the event at the Mount of Transfiguration, its relevance then & to the day ?

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  3. well, you sent an email so I could come and I guess learn and see what I thought…. Far from it. Listen, zeitgeist or not, I can cite at least 10 PhD’s who support the notion you dismiss and pretty much flush your secular beliefs down the toilet, you on the other hand cannot even accept that all religions are accounts of people who were deprived of the things we know therefore invented these magic tales to explain away. I really thought you knew what you wrote about, however you choose a writer that supports your theory and bomb away with side-notes on their work. I am disappointed but should have known. Let me clue you in, an article has to be researched (you have to look at both sides) which you do not do, second a point is made using a number of scientific facts (which you do not do either) lastly, don’t call your opinions articles, it makes journalists look bad, specially if you didn’t do your homework (which you did not do). I like the way you approach people and the semi educated dialogue is fun, but as for the seriousness and professionalism of this page, there is none, again, nothing personal, you are the writer therefore burden of proof falls on you, I criticize so I can say what’s on my mind…. your page works the other way around. By the way I have a catholic priest with me, who can’t comment on your writing because he’s afraid he’ll sin by not containing himself, even the guys on your team don’t like your writing skills. Don’t be mad, I just really find your approach and delivery very child-like and uneducated except for a wiki on horus…or dyonesus… anyway, it’s been fun, loose my email

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    • Dr. O — Come now, my friend. I expected better.

      If the article’s assertions are so incorrect, then you should explain to us what part of Egyptian/GrecoRoman/Hindu mythology was wrong. Why not provide some of the evidence from the 10 PhD scholars that you know? Where are the links? Because I fail to see what you’re trying to say here.

      Are you asserting that in Egyptian mythology, Horus was born of a virgin? Or that in Mithraism, Mithras was crucified, died 3 days later and resurrected? What parts of these religions did the article get incorrect? Just provide the evidence of this whenever you get the chance. God bless.

      Oh and P.S. I purposely use Wikipedia because it is a very well known online resource and I think most people would agree that it is not a “Christian source.”

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      • FollowerOfChrist says:

        Don’t bother, just keep on being blessed and preaching and testifying. You know that the bible says about this type, just pray for him and keep it moving.

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        • I normally would not just start up a debate but Dr. O and I specifically discussed this topic in a different thread so we’re just continuing the discussion now that the article has been posted.

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      • I can’t do this, Every Mediterranean religion predates cristianity, I don’t need a degree to know that. It’s a fact. I am tired, believe what you want but again your articles are grossly incorrect ( mithra worship predates jesus by over 500 years, sumarians by ove 3000. I can’t debate or discuss this, I use the reference to my degree not to gloat, to let you know I have studied, thoroughly religion and otherwise, and if I do provide links to university papers, studies, archeological findings etc. you will say they’re wrong and the devil is corrupting their views, so I can’t win. Listen I don’t come here to pick a fight and have actually defended your articles agains other more idiotic people posting here, but I know what I know from before I was an atheist, I learned all I know about religions from catholic seminar, so which is it, either all the major religious theologians are wrong and you’re right or you have wrong information and a good imagination?

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      • Sorry, Beginning and End, I have to agree with Dr O.

        Your story is too one sided, that’s your flaw. And that is also typical of a religious fenatic. maybey if you balance it out a little it would be great.

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    • FollowerOfChrist says:

      Ok um… What does the catholic priest have to do with anything? And lol if he’s really a priest why would he disagree with anything that was said. Lol I’d don’t know what catholic you’re talking about but it’s not Christian – catholic. What kind of priest can’t contain their self? I’m just saying… To become a priest, you have to do a lot of spritual cleansing maybe he should reconsider what he calls himself. And to do research, you don’t have to look at both sides, lol. Who told you that? They lied to you. Even if he didn’t look at both sides (cause he does) he’d still be right. Hello, were you reading the article? The whole time he’s comparing and contrasting. You don’t have to have a PhD to be right lol people who think like that don’t make it far in life. There’s more than a million scholars society looks up to that never even went to school let alone got a degree. This is crazy. I can’t believe I read everything you said. What was I thinking?!!! Anyways, my prayers are with you man.

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      • Very well said.

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        • FollowerOfChrist says:

          I was wondering if you could possibly do an article on deepak chopra because I’m seeing his name a lot and I’ve been reading a lot of articles that refer to him as a spiritual god. Please, If you do let me know.

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      • Honestly, do I need to answer that? The top theologians in all major religions agree in one thing and it contradicts the information presented here. The priest, my good friend simply laughed at the article because it has false information. Seek knowledge, from religious sources even. You will find that I’m not bashing religion, I’m saying this and most articles here are simply misleading (even in the religious circles) and contain erroneous information. Just… go talk to a senior priest of any major religion, show them the article and my point is proven. I can’t sit here and output knowledge, it would be disrespectful, I’m not trying to ridicule the writer, but he is wrong. and you lol, you just lol sound like a 15 year old lol… I’m too old for this, you are right, great minds that have contributed a lot to society had no degree, what makes you think I refute that? I’m just saying none of those great minds post or write here, me included. But I can say this, I know a lot more about religion being an atheist than you, or the author, that is a fact. I’m sure you will go on to judge and insult me, go ahead, the world is bigger than you or this website, and Most of it would agree with me, I am correct, you are wrong, that’s not an egotistic comment, just a fact. try to enter a religious discussion group with any article written here and see what happens, then get back to me. and don’t waste your prayers on me, you are just talking to the ceiling or to yourself. besides what you think or post here makes 0 difference in the world of religious studies. maybe as material for a religious comedy stand up routine I guess. anyway, you’re free to believe what you want, I’m free to disagree, how about we leave it at that

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      • I think he meant it was child like because the “devil made them do it” Is very CHILD LIKE. She should post like an adult and when someone has proof against her she just uses the devil did it. My 5 yr old could come up with something better.

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    • Dr. O, I’ve already posted this (and even though I seriousy doubt you actually had a Catholic priest at your disposal at the time of your post) I will repeat it. Just for you.

      Catholicism is a pagan, polytheistic religion of self-abasement that seems more geared toward making people HATE God, than actually trying to form a relationship with Him. It’s “cosmogeny” is composed of Greco-Roman gods. Jupiter (who is Lucifer) is held up as God (this is evidenced especially in the work of the Sistine Chapel–which pictures God in an idolatrous, anthropomorphic way). Sol Invictus (the sun and PRIMARY SOURCE of the Christmas misconception) is painted as Jesus Christ (and is held as a reverential deity, alongside God). The two gods having little to do with eachother (the irony is that their Greek counterparts Zeus and Helios reveal that Helios–a Titan–precedes Zeus’ birth and is therefore NOT his son) are lumped together alongside the Virgin Mary, who is viewed as Minerva (comparable to Athena, both goddesses of wisdom) and is revered, prayed, and sacrificed to in such a fashion. Their cosmogeny is also composed of the Apostles (including “St. Judas”) and an ever-growing list of deified saints.
      Most Catholic practices are condemned by the BIble. These include necromancy, polytheism, self-deification, idolatry, and worst of all–TAMPERING with the Word. Catholicism is CONSTANTLY changing their Holy scripture based upon the filtering or addition of “old” and “new” material.

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      • I agree totally, sadly such is true for all religions. They all interpret the bible differently and claim to be “the one” What’s your point here? And doubt what you want, I won’t cry myself to sleep over it. Like I posted above, take any article here to any serious religion discussion group (religion of your liking) and you will be laughed at. Try to pass the Illuminati conspiracy presented here as a serious article anywhere… Really, you will be embarrassed. I really don’t want to keep repeating myself, just read above. Your knowledge of greek religion is inferior and generic, go to a local college please, let them teach you that what you say is just one of many interpretations. All false by the way, zeus is as real as god, jesus or the easter bunny. whatever, I am so tired of replying to the same idiotic remarks, but I will continue as long as you all keep inviting me back by posing about me, I”m just getting impatient with the lack of knowledge and superiority complex you guys have. I am not presenting merely my opinion, I am talking about the same information thought to priests, ministers and pastors during their studies,

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        • TheTruthSeeker says:

          Dr.O,
          Please verify biblical knowledge superiority of your catholic priest, you
          Have to you disposal, by asking following questions;
          1.Where in the Bible does it say 25th of December is
          Jesus’s birthday and a command to celebrate it?
          2.Where in the Bible does it say Jesus was crucified in Friday?
          3.Where in The Bible does it conclussively states that He resurrected
          On Sunday?
          4.Where The Bible commands us to celebrate Easter?
          5. Where in the Bible does it say we mist literally eat Jesus’s
          Body and literally drink His Blood, where Eucharist word even mentioned??
          6. Where The Bible speaks of the church as being a building,
          an institution, an organization?
          7. Where in The Bible does it say we must pray for the dead,
          To the dead?
          8. Where in the Bible does it say Mary must be venerated?
          9. Where in the Bible does it say we must go to confessional?
          10. Where in The Bible does it say babies can be baptized?
          11.Where in The Bible does it say we are to bow down to icons, crosses,
          Dead bones?
          12. Where in The Bible does it say anything about rosaries?
          13. Where in the Bible does it say anything about Holy Water?
          14. Where in The Bible does it say we are saved by works and not by
          Faith alone?
          15. Where in the Bible does it say Holy Convocation ( worship)
          Designated exclusively to Sun Day?
          16. Where in the Bible does it say Jesus nailed The Ten Commandments,
          Including Sabbath to the cross?
          17. Where in The Bible does it say Papa aka Pope aka Father has the same
          Authority on earth as Messiah does?
          18. Where in the Bible does disciples called Saint Peter, Saint
          John and so on?
          19. Where in The Bible does it say we must pray repetitive,
          Memorized prayer, where does it say we are to pray to Mary??
          20. Where in The Bible does it say Traditions of Men must be
          Followed much like Catholics do?
          If your catholic priest cannot answer ONE of these
          Questions He can leave his position a priest,
          He has no business of preaching to his flock.

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          • Damm, I swore I would not return here but I can’t resist the idiot fan-club! What is your point? To bash Catholics? I can do that for you, so how about you find your own ft and ask away. And by the way, no one should have a “flock”, we’re not birds, or sheep…well maybe you all are. I’m a free thinking, free living man. quit replying to my comments, I know you desperately need a better figure that B&E’s retarded and frustrated author extraordinaire to talk to, but it’s not me. If you want to hear my immortal words, buy my book… Actually don’t, you all need to keep as much money as you can, your tithing is coming soon! Remember, “Don’t say you don’t give because you don’t have, say you don’t have because you don’t give!” – Jerry Falwell . So yeah, do the world a favor, we don’t want you here! [Censored for personal attacks/trolling].

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        • TheTruthSeeker says:

          Dr. O,
          You should not debate Scriptures you know
          so little about. If you would you never consult
          a catholic priest. Tithing, even though is biblica,
          is not relevant to believers, because it was ties to
          The Temple and Levitical priesthood. You see,
          They didn’t possess the land of their own and
          were fed off of the tithings that people working on the land
          were required to offer to the Levites. ONLY appointed
          by Yahweh Levites, members Aaron’s family were
          allowed to collect tithes. Tithe meaning tenth. It is produce
          not money. Fishermen, pottery makers, carpenters
          were not obligated to tithe. So, biblically ignorant
          man, I do not tithe. By the way, you could use psychologist’s
          services to deal with anger. Also, clean up your mouth. It is filthy.
          May Yahweh bless you and deliver you from this
          ignorant, oppressive world :-)

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  4. FollowerOfChrist says:

    What I really love about this site and the holy spirit inside me gets this vibe is not only is a lot of the information presented factual but not once have you tried to defame, or put a person to shame but you always welcome them with open arms. I love that and it really shows what a follower of Christ should be like. Luke 6:40 student when fully grown becomes like the teacher. I wish more believers would do this because I think the way you get the message across is very important. Keep spreading the truth and peace!

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  5. FollowerOfChrist: What I really love about this site and the holy spirit inside me gets this vibe is not only is a lot of the information presented factual but not once have you tried to defame, or put a person to shame but you always welcome them with open arms. I love that and it really shows what a follower of Christ should be like. Luke 6:40 student when fully grown becomes like the teacher. I wish more believers would do this because I think the way you get the message across is very important. Keep spreading the truth and peace!

    Thank you so much for the kind words. And everything at Beginning and End is done to try and glorify Christ in a spirit of the love He showed to all people. And frankly, I am honored to have those who think and believe differently come on the site to share their ideas. It’s a great way for us all to grow together. God bless.

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  6. Robin, is that you??? Tambrin! I pray all is well!

    Beginning and End, thank you. Just a few Saturdays ago someone close to me brought this information to my house and we discussed it. Jesus a copy-cat……can’t help but shake my head at some of the notions that exist in the world. I shared what I believe was for me to share, but left the whole conversation wondering if I should have said more….or perhaps less….was it too much to take in at one time…..was it not enough?? I just had a lot of questions. This article, however, has provided yet another resourse for this person close to me to perhaps receive additional information/TRUTH I wondered if he did/did not receive from my witness. I shared the link with him. Either way, to God be the glory for always being the One to give the increase that some may have planted and others watered. And as one person alluded to in earlier comments, and as I shared with my friend…..it’s a choice….salvation is a choice. Jesus is not going to force Himself on any of us….BUT, BUT, BUT, it would behoove us all to make the RIGHT CHOICE – Him!!!! So, we share what we know to share and pray that the work God stared, He’ll complete!!!!

    Thank you for your service to Him, and consequently us!!!

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  7. You may have done a good job in debunking the similarities in Horus vs Jesus but to go so far as to say Jesus life was well documented is a little much. The bible was written long after Jesus had left the earth. Many portions of the bible have been excluded. The story cannot be taken for face value because only a few persons were allowed to translate the story. Any human able to translate it would of make mistakes, misinterpret and wrote stories that would be acceptable to the laws and beliefs of the times. Write an article about the Council of Nicea and all the fun they had determining whether or not Jesus was God’s son or God’s son as we all are.

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    • Finally, the light of knowledge shines through!, That is part of the point I try to make, you are probably a christian so you wont get much flack, I as an atheist…. I have come close to crucifixion. My point is believer or not, There is very little real knowledge in these articles, I don’t hate christianity bit I hate ignorance, you have knowledge, that does not make you a bad christian, just an educated one. Bravo

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  8. What points are you wanting proved,because it is extremely obvious that the overal story of Jesus is borowed to some degree from religious ideas that predate it. The resemblence of all religions are based off the same principle. That principle is the cosmological universe(ie the Sun,planets,forces of nature,etc) The origin of Chirst is definitely based off the personification of the Sun. This is obvious even without relation to historical references. It is no coincidence that,most,if not all religions are based on the same concepts. Question is simply which predates which,and I think we all know the Nile Valley civilization predates them all.along with the Indus valley civilization. That is my claim. Im convinced through historical research,with an unbias eye,that the ideology of Jesus’s attributes are no more than those deities which predates Jesus. There are references to a Jesus,historical figure,named Panthera,but my claim is that no biblical Jesus ever existed nor did any of the things claimed in the New Testament! Again I say never existed in the biblical sense. This also true of the original religions. They are only personficaitons of the forces of nature and the natural celestial bodies of the Universe..

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    • Thank you, you have made my day. But try to convince the blind that the information they have is incorrect… good luck, I’ve been tryin in a nice way and was about to simply ignore the stupidity, but seeing as there are others who have obviously studied Mediterranean religions here, I’ll stick around. big thumbs up for knowing what you are talking about.

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  9. I dont claim that there full lives in every single,accurate aspect was similiar but I do believe and am convinced through numerous amounts of study that one is no more than imported/exported or adopted ideologies of another!(Ie Jesus consist of plagarized ideas of older deities such as Horus/Heru,Krishna,Buddha,Osiris/Asar,Mitras,etc)!

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    • Hi Mac,

      Thanks for your comment. Do you have any evidence/links to support this?

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      • B n E… Do you have any evidence to support your claims (other than wikipedia) ? If you can provide me with one scholar, (a person that has really studied, christian or not ) that says your article is correct, I’ll stop bugging you. just the mithra part is sooooooo wrong, you claim it came after jesus, you obviously have never studied common religion theory or mediterranean religions, yet you ask us for links or references, you’re the writer, go study as we did then ask away, but I won’t waste valuable time looking for links to what even top religious scholars know to be true, the bible is a copy in many ways of previous texts dating back over 6,000 years before jesus ever came up. Can you name one historian contemporary to jesus that ever mentioned him ( don’t say josephus, that has been known to be a forgery for over a century) I would think if jesus really existed, and did the miraculous things you claim…. someone would have written about him. (oh and the bible doesn’t count, like I have said before you can’t use the bible to prove the bible is real, that’s ridiculous)

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  10. I’d just like to point out a couple of things ironic about these (and unfortuneately, a good handful of “conspiracy theorists”) beliefs that Christianity is instrumental if not centrifugal to “The Order” and its undertakings.
    First off, many (if not most, hopefully all) TRUE Christians (those willing to take upon PERSONAL and TOTAL Bible study, and are truly projecting and living the Gospel) are in ADAMANT OPPOSITION to any “New World Order” except that which is established by The LORD, God, The Father for and through His Son, The Lord, Jesus Christ. We only live IN this world, but do not make ourselves PART of it, for we know that it wrought of wickedness and deceit–and that His Kingdom is greater than any human concept, even of pure (uninstitutionalized) freedom.
    Second, the video itself (though, supposedly, attacking “The Order”) is actually a promotional work of Lucifer and “The Order”). Many of them are, just as many of them are PURPOSEFULLY created to sound ridiculous and incredulous–because if you believe that “The Order” is a myth, you’ve given it absolute power…by ignoring it, you’ve allowed it to sneak right up on you! The worst part? All this BRAINWASHING makes it so that even the most obvious scenario can suddenly become elusive.

    Onto this “Acharya S.”–Despite her affiliations (though this seem true of many occultists) she seems to know nothing of “The Cosmogeny”. I, though going by man-made references (mostly in naming), do believe that what I am about to say is Wisdom that has been Divinely imparted. I must make CRYSTAL CLEAR that I have NO non-God affiliation except that with The Lord, Jesus Christ.
    “Satan” is restrained far from this Earth, for now. “Lucifer” and his “hosts” are confined to Earth (Lucifer, himself, is confined to this planet’s core)…with the exception of those that have been loosed by mankind’s “earth-shaping”. Lucifer is just one of MANY similar beings who are under Satan’s authority. They themselves controlling beings of their own, who control beings down to humans and animals (and sometimes plants or inanimate objects). This stretches far through the universe (but is still substantially smaller than those who are allied to God, The Father). Their irony is in their self-destructive tendencies. Each spirit, even those of men who are allied to Satan–secretly desire to kill and assume his position (Satan’s very own desire against God, The Father). Lucifer, himself, being particularly insane (despite in reality, he hardly even qualifies as a “Cherub”). Satan, of course, knows this (as he also, again ironically knows his demise is nigh) as all Angels (even the fallen ones) can see into the future (though not their own) as far as the extent of their lives.

    Finally, there is a “Christianity” that is part of “The Order”. It is, however, Apostasy–the “Synagogue of Satan”. Unfortuneately, and I hate to say it, many of you may be a part of the Apostasy. But the “false church” dates even before Christ. Lucifer (knowing that Christ would be born on Earth) created thousands of “paths” to the gods and even to God (in some arbitrary form) and created legends that could run congruent to Christ’s existence and mission.
    Despite his efforts, Lucifer’s grip on humanity was regardless loosened by Christ (who, by the way, provided the simplest and easiest explanation to the “mysteries” of God). Hardpressed to merely give up, Lucifer then took God’s Word and used it as a tool of corruption. This devil used Christ’s name to commit unspeakable acts, to promote paganism, and to support a “One-World Government”. He successfully implanted Christ in local mythologies (instead of abolishing and replacing them altogether).
    His most obvious (and longest sustained) Apostasy is Catholicism. Catholicism is a pagan, polytheistic religion of self-abasement that seems more geared toward making people HATE God, than actually trying to form a relationship with Him. It’s “cosmogeny” is composed of Greco-Roman gods. Jupiter (who is Lucifer) is held up as God (this is evidenced especially in the work of the Sistine Chapel–which pictures God in an idolatrous, anthropomorphic way). Sol Invictus (the sun and PRIMARY SOURCE of the Christmas misconception) is painted as Jesus Christ (and is held as a reverential deity, alongside God). The two gods having little to do with eachother (the irony is that their Greek counterparts Zeus and Helios reveal that Helios–a Titan–precedes Zeus’ birth and is therefore NOT his son) are lumped together alongside the Virgin Mary, who is viewed as Minerva (comparable to Athena, both goddesses of wisdom) and is revered, prayed, and sacrificed to in such a fashion. Their cosmogeny is also composed of the Apostles (including “St. Judas”) and an ever-growing list of deified saints.
    Most Catholic practices are condemned by the BIble. These include necromancy, polytheism, self-deification, idolatry, and worst of all–TAMPERING with the Word. Catholicism is CONSTANTLY changing their Holy scripture based upon the filtering or addition of “old” and “new” material.
    The worst part of Apostasy is that, where Christ told all men who followed Him were to preach in His name for the Glory of God, Satan used “religious figureheads” to dispell religious truths that are convenient to his regime. Instead of actually READING the Bible, Satan has misled the masses into accepting whatever their leaders tell them.

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    • Yes I have many references but only willing to share a few! What are you wanting referenced?
      For starters virgin birth of Buddha who predates Jesus by thousands of years.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(mother_of_Buddha)
      Referring to the prophetic dream Queen Maya had prior to conception, some versions of the life story of the Buddha say that he was conceived without sexual activity. This interpretation has led to parallels being drawn with the birth story of Jesus.

      The story of the birth of the Buddha was known in the West, and possibly influenced the story of the birth of Jesus. Saint Jerome (4th century CE) mentions the birth of the Buddha, who he says “was born from the side of a virgin”.[2] Also a fragment of Archelaos of Carrha (278 CE) mentions the Buddha’s virgin-birth.

      Other parallels in the birth stories include:
      Maya conceived during a dream, Mary conceived around the time of a visitation from an angel.
      Both women gave birth “outside” of a home.
      Heavenly wonders appeared in the sky.
      Heavenly beings (angels or devas; or in some Mahayana traditions, Samantabhadra) announcing the newborn as “savior” of the world.
      Sages came to visit the newborn and make prophecies of auspicious careers

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      • Pleae understand the hsitory and etymology of the word “virgin/virgos”! Here is a link! Very brief!
        http://www.pamf.org/teen/sex/virginity/defining.html

        The virgin birth predates Christ by milleneums.
        http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pcc/pcc11.htm

        Also the term “Christ” means to “annoint or the annointed”. This,of course comes from the Egyptian practice of mummification, Link below provides more detail
        http://books.google.com/books?id=NPXcxcCLOjYC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=egyptians+anointed+mummies&source=bl&ots=xUMO2nU0jp&sig=ESxQ051g_qbYF9DeMYdafgb8_lk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MZsAUOeFLsnW2gWV7OH5Aw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=egyptians%20anointed%20mummies&f=false

        karas =krs karast=krst
        Wiki links that show etymological links of the term krs/-sepulchre and krst//christ ,derived from karast mummy as verification of the link above claim of the term Christ! Irrefutable!
        krs
        http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%B8%B3rs
        krst
        http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/krst

        The amount of sources are enormous! I will conceal the most detailed of them as they wont even be needed!

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      • Hi Mac,

        Thanks for getting back to me with links. Unfortunately, your “evidence” does not prove anything.

        Let’s just go through it one at a time. But first off, we should note that you make the assumption that since something is older anything similar must have stolen or been influenced by it. This will become more relevant later.

        Buddah — The link you provide from Wiki provides absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the account of life of Jesus was copied from the story of Buddah. And in the main account of Buddah’s birth your own source never says that Maya was a virgin. And it does say that she was married for 20 years which would imply she was not a virgin.

        And here is all it says on a virgin birth:

        “Referring to the prophetic dream Queen Maya had prior to conception, some versions of the life story of the Buddha say that he was conceived without sexual activity. This interpretation has led to parallels being drawn with the birth story of Jesus.

        The story of the birth of the Buddha was known in the West, and possibly influenced the story of the birth of Jesus. Saint Jerome (4th century CE) mentions the birth of the Buddha, who he says “was born from the side of a virgin”.[2] Also a fragment of Archelaos of Carrha (278 CE) mentions the Buddha’s virgin-birth.”

        So one there is ancient Buddhist text cited. It just says “some versions.” And the only sources they cite are Jerome, who was not a Buddhist and a fragment from 278 CE, which would be over 2 centuries after Christ was on Earth. So this argument fails. Furthermore, you say Buddha predates Christ by 500 years. Well what matters is the book of Isaiah which is where the prophecy of the Messiah being born of a virgin was written. And that was 800 years before Christ. So the Bible was still ahead of Buddhism in this regard.

        Additionally, Jesus and Buddha had completely different lives and missions. So there’s nothing “Stolen” at all.

        2) Etymology of virgin – Again, the Bible refutes this point:

        “31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

        32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

        33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

        34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” (Luke 1)

        Mary’s own testimony shows that she was indeed a virgin, in the Biblical sense. Remember, the rules on virginity in the Bible were in the Old Testament, which was written in Hebrew. Your etymomlogy link is in Greek. All throughout the Old Testament the Bible distinguishes between a virgin and a woman who has had sexual relations. So this argument completely fails.

        3) Virgin Birth predates Christ — This website does not provide any manuscript sources of evidence. It merely references ancient myths. For example, it uses Zeus’ impregnation of Semele as its opening example of a virgin birth. Let’s remember, the oldest record of Greek mythology is from Homer and the earliest manuscripts of any of Homer’s writings date back to 500 BC. So again, this would be 3 centuries after the Bible recorded a prophecy of a virgin birth. All the other examples from your source fall after that so they are not relevant to the discussion.

        4) Christ = Anointed = Mummy — I admit I am not familiar with this argument at all. But it seems to imply from your source that “Messu” is the word for Messiah in Hebrew and that was based on an old Egyptian reference to a mummy, and the original mummy Osiris. Well I will say first off the word for anointed in Hebrew is “mashiyach” not “messu.” But even if messu does have some link the idea that Jesus Christ was based on Osiris is not supported by scripture. For one, their lives again have nothing in common. Secondly, Osiris, if you study ancient non-Christian sources is the deified King Narmer of Ancient Egypt who was none other than the Babylonian King Nimrod who conquered Egypt as part of his vast empire. Nimrod is mentioned in the Bible in Genesis 10 and many other chapters. And he is clearly an enemy of God. His efforts to make the tower of babel was thwarted by God directly. So to think that a man so clearly identified as a villain and pagan rebel in the Old Testament, is somehow the Messiah in the New Testament makes little sense.

        So I think that with all due respect, these arguments are reaching. Not one of these sources provide any evidence of Biblical scholars plotting and stealing from other cultures to “create” the life of Jesus. There is more ancient manuscript evidence of the life of Jesus than any other figure in antiquity. And none of these links show even close parallels between the life of Jesus and any other figure to conclude that the Bible was copying.

        Thanks again for your comments. God bless.

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  11. Also the validity of CRUC/crucifixion is questionable as the bible it self states Jesus was killed on/near a tree,which is similiar to the story,as even you stated,of Krishna being killed with under/on a tree as well!
    (Acts 5.30.) (Acts 10.39.)(Acts 13.29.)(Peter 2.24.)

    Also the validity of Jesus of the Bible is being questioned heavily by scholars and religious priest alike. It is proposed that much of the Gospel is false(80%) in the attributes given to Jesus/Ye-zeus!.
    http://www.balikislam.com/profiles/blogs/jesus-seminar-a-200member

    Western religion and philosophy is purely fabrication or plagarism to some degree if not all degrees as hist

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  12. Beginning and End,
    You stated

    1.) “But first off, we should note that you make the assumption that since something is older anything similar must have stolen or been influenced by it!”
    (My claim)-The argument is that the attributes of Jesus are no more than the atributes of deities that predate him,(not there exact lifestyles) and the resemblence of all religions are based off the same principle. That principle is the cosmological universe(ie the Sun,planets,forces of nature,etc) The origin of Chirst is definitely based off the personification of the Sun. This is obvious even without relation to historical references. It is no coincidence that,most,if not all religions are based on the same concepts. Question is simply which predates which,and I think we all know the Nile Valley civilization predates them all.along with the Indus valley civilization!” (Lets be precise!)

    2.) You sated-

    “And the only sources they cite are Jerome, who was not a Buddhist and a fragment from 278 CE, which would be over 2 centuries after Christ was on Earth!”
    You are correct Jerome is not buddhist,infact he was priest of the Christian church which makes it even more interesting. Furthermore Jerome translated the bible into the Latin language,thus meaning even a christian scholar attested to the virgin birth outside of the context of Jesus!

    Also the “virgin” term is stated as it relates to Buddha’s mother is likely due to a specific interpretation of the prophetic dream Queen Māyā is said to have had prior to conception! However we can no doubt note the similiarity of the Immaculate conception which is the highlight of all the births of these deities including Jesus!
    “virgin”-also means pure,untouched(the mother of Buddha was untouched in her conception of Buddha thus making it a virgin(adj) birth! The meaning of virgin as you seem to imply only took form around 12/13th century!(almost synomous to the (adj) “Immaculate”)
    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_virgin_mean

    Etymology of virgin- “Hebraic meaning>>>>>”young woman”…had nothing to do with sex therefore you just showed a biblical error,that is if you are equating “virgin birth” with “Immaculate conception” and if you are equating Hebrew meaning of “virgin” with lack of sexual intercourse. http://www.the-goldenrule.name/Virgin_HEBREW.htm

    3.)You stated ” All throughout the Old Testament the Bible distinguishes between a virgin and a woman who has had sexual relations. So this argument completely fails”
    I am/was under that assumption that you were equating “virgin” with bearing a child/pregnancy without sexual union,Immaculate conception, due to the post you provided in your argument above regarding the other deities,of whom I have yet to discuss and in your rebuttal! So the topic at hand should have been the “Immaculate conception” concept though we will still deal with this “virgin” concept you claim the bible means! But please do understand that I am/was equating the birth of Jesus with the birth of Buddha as a whole in their similiarities!

    4.) You stated ” Well what matters is the book of Isaiah which is where the prophecy of the Messiah being born of a virgin was written. And that was 800 years before Christ. So the Bible was still ahead of Buddhism in this regard.”

    Please note the Bible has been continuously edited,changed,and revised therefore the validity of the Bible is highly questionable as it entered many European hands. Therefore my claim is also that the Bible is not a valid source of historical information. So what reason do I have to not assume this meant the birth of Buddha or any other of the deities who predates Jesus,since the claim is that it happen with them and also considering the bible was re-written multiple times before becoming what it is today,using information found in earlier religious text? Futhtermore,it seems you are using the bible as a historical reference. This is a no-no! Too many inaccuracies and plagarized stories (but thats another topic which we can deal with as well).

    5.) You stated ”
    I admit I am not familiar with this argument at all. But it seems to imply from your source that “Messu” is the word for Messiah in Hebrew and that was based on an old Egyptian reference to a mummy, and the original mummy Osiris. Well I will say first off the word for anointed in Hebrew is “mashiyach” not “messu.”

    POINT:-Here you overlooked a few things.One being the root word mes and MAS which is the first three letters of the word “Mashiyach”(mashiach) which stills means “annoint/annointed” or to smear with oil/etc. Secondly these terms,mes/mas/messu/krst are stated to have existed on the Hieroglyphs which predate any Hebraic text. This is irrefutable!!

    Futher elaboration on the meaning of “the annointed/annoint” and its practice>>http://www.wordnik.com/words/karast

    Also the term is most commonly “mashiach” still containing the Egyptian “Mas” >>>http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/word_studies/greek/christos.pdf

    6.) You stated ” But even if messu does have some link the idea that Jesus Christ was based on Osiris is not supported by scripture. For one, their lives again have nothing in common. Secondly, Osiris, if you study ancient non-Christian sources is the deified King Narmer of Ancient Egypt who was none other than the Babylonian King Nimrod who conquered Egypt as part of his vast empire. Nimrod is mentioned in the Bible in Genesis 10 and many other chapters. And he is clearly an enemy of God. His efforts to make the tower of babel was thwarted by God directly. So to think that a man so clearly identified as a villain and pagan rebel in the Old Testament, is somehow the Messiah in the New Testament makes little sense.”

    In the above passage you equated Jesus Christ with Osiris(which is ok to a degree) but then you equated Osiris with Narmer(totally incorrect and displays a huge misunderstanding of Egyptan literature) Osiris was not Narmer,if this is what you are implying and you provided no source for this claim,and then you equate Narmer with Messiah(this is not my claim nor my source’s claim)
    Osiris-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

    And we have yet to dive into the other deities however it seems that this shouldnt be needed!

      (Quote)

    • Welcome back! Let’s continue:

      1. “(My claim)-The argument is that the attributes of Jesus are no more than the atributes of deities that predate him,(not there exact lifestyles) and the resemblence of all religions are based off the same principle. That principle is the cosmological universe(ie the Sun,planets,forces of nature,etc) ”

      Do you have any evidence or proof of the “principle of the cosmological universe”? This sounds more like theory/speculation than anything with backed by hard evidence.

      Furthermore, you are still falling back on this idea that “older means it must have been plagiarized” which clearly does not hold up under scrutiny (as the article demonstrates).

      “The origin of Chirst is definitely based off the personification of the Sun. This is obvious even without relation to historical references”

      No it isn’t. And it is just not productive to offer historical references to show this. When especially I can show the opposite. You keep saying things “predate Christ” without taking into account the Old Testament. As per the Old testament, the fist civilization originated in Mesopotamia, where any secular source will confirm is the oldest civilization (not Egypt). So God and his followers pre-date Egypt. And now for this “sun = Jesus”, again I will just show where the Bible clearly refutes this:

      “Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord’s house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. 18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.” – Ezekiel 8.

      Unequivocally, sun worship was an ABOMINATION to the Lord. It invoked his anger and wrath.

      Another example:

      Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female..And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.” – Deuteronomy 4.

      So again, the worship of the sun (Egypt), moon (Islam), stars (pagan/withcraft), was clearly forbidden. The Bible is well aware that people were worshiping the sun and God said “do NOT do any of these abominations that those people are doing.” It can’t be more clear.

      2) Buddha born of a virgin — “You are correct Jerome is not buddhist,infact he was priest of the Christian church which makes it even more interesting. Furthermore Jerome translated the bible into the Latin language,thus meaning even a christian scholar attested to the virgin birth outside of the context of Jesus!

      Also the “virgin” term is stated as it relates to Buddha’s mother is likely due to a specific interpretation of the prophetic dream Queen Māyā is said to have had prior to conception! However we can no doubt note the similiarity of the Immaculate conception which is the highlight of all the births of these deities including Jesus!
      “virgin”-also means pure,untouched(the mother of Buddha was untouched in her conception of Buddha thus making it a virgin(adj) birth! The meaning of virgin as you seem to imply only took form around 12/13th century!(almost synomous to the (adj) “Immaculate”)”

      First off, in Buddhist texts themselves it denies the virgin birth of Buddha. Your own source says this. Secondly, Jerome did translate the Bible, but he is no prophet or Apostle. He’s just a man who had no divine inspiration. And thus he is fallible. Just as much as people who believe prosperity Gospel or Mormons, etc. They are incorrect in their theology. That doesn’t disprove the Gospels.

      3) “Virgin” — Here are the rules for priests straight from Leviticus 21: “And he shall take a wife in her virginity. 14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.”

      Clearly the implication here is sexual, not referring to age.

      “If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.” – Deuteronomy 22.

      “If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.” — Deuteronomy 22.

      Context, context, context. This is how you properly interpret the text. In the context of the Bible, virgin clearly means a woman who has not had sex.

      4) The Book of Isaiah — “Please note the Bible has been continuously edited,changed,and revised therefore the validity of the Bible is highly questionable as it entered many European hands. Therefore my claim is also that the Bible is not a valid source of historical information. ”

      And here you are incorrect as I will just direct you to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the greatest literary find of antiquity. The manuscripts of the Old Testament were found dating back to 168 BC, before they ever touched “European hands.” And the consistency between those texts and the previously-oldest manuscripts from 1400 AD was 99%. And the book of Isaiah specifically is held out as the example of how similar they are. http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=357

      This is why textual criticism is so important. When we examine manuscripts and the history behind them, these issues become easy to resolve. On the flip side, we have no ancient documents from Buddha’s lifetime. The oldest manuscripts are from over 600 years after Buddha’s death, are in fragments and have been in those dreaded “European hands” you say alter everything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandh%C4%81ran_Buddhist_Texts

      5) Mes/messu/mas — Even if the word “annointed” existed in another culture, why would that mean that the life of Jesus Christ was copied from ancient Egypt? Especially when Egypt has no god who a life anything remotely similar to that of Jesus? It just doesn’t follow logically.

      As for Nimrod being Osiris, I would really suggest you look into this more. There is a great deal of evidence to support this, and the wikipedia entry on Osiris does not even look into this question. I would strongly recommend the Giza Discovery by Peter Goodgame which provides a treasure trove of evidence, academic sources and links to support this:

      http://www.redmoonrising.com/Giza/index2.htm

      Thanks again for your comments. I can really see your passion for these issues of history. I hope and pray that your passion for your eternal destiny is just the same. So are you a Buddhist or believer in Egyptian religions?

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  13. Im unable to post my rebuttal it seems!! Its very detailed!

      (Quote)

  14. Thanks for the reply: Lets make it happen!

    POINT 1

    You stated “Do you have any evidence or proof of the “principle of the cosmological universe”? This sounds more like theory/speculation than anything with backed by hard evidence.”

    I state-”Yes walk outside. However literary proof? Definitely! You would have to read sources that deal with the chronology of human migration and monuments or stone evidence that exist,which show the obvious worship of the cosmos with the Sun being the most respected! There are countless amount of evidence that shows the migration of life began in Africa migrating to all other parts of the world,including the so-called “Middle East” and mesopatamian region. These individuals were no more than migrated African peoples as was the people of the Indus Valley! Even in Meso-America there exist the African prescence. All of which predate the biblical civilizations you speak of! The article provided in point #2 deals with this as well(http://africanblackrenaissance.blogspot.com/)

    Here is a detailed article which deals with the African(Egpytian) origin of the Indus Valley and also the true origin of Buddha before Aryan invasion and plagarizing of the concept of Buddhism,thus providing the obvious gateway of migration of religions concepts in other regions of the world.>>>http://tseday.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/the-african-presence-in-india-by-runoko-rashidi/

    More proof that Africans migrated East,obviously moving across the eastern region of Mesopatamia towards the Indus region. It would only make sense that they settled in mesopatamia. http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/india/history/harappa.htm

    All people of the planet have been anthropologically proved to have been no more than migrated Africans who,after migrating to different regions,suffered changes in their anatomy,lifestyle,diet,etc due to climatic changes in their environment. This inlcudes Europeans(migrated Africans who loss their melanated qualities due to Glacial Ages of the Earth) Below is basically a picture of the world’s ancestor! You should research Chiek Anta Diop’s work!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations

    Article on the African prescence in Meso-America!Worshippers of the cosmos! >>>>http://www.theperspective.org/olmecs.html

    Pic of African priest in the MesoAmericas>>>3100 years before Christ…why doesnt the Bible mention the people of this region as well? Also be advise this obliferates the notion Columbous discovered America and that Europeans traveled the waters first(technology)*yes im aware this in not your claim

    IRREFUTABLE…(this is more history the bible doesnt account for. I warned you that you couldnt use the bible to validate history. Also a scholar named Dr. Walter Williams states that the Bible is no more than fabricated history of the Europeans in which they constructed to place their selves in history. Hence all biblical characters have been given Europeans images,most if not all! This he states was done after the Europeans were re-taught by the Moors to read and write thus taking the Europeans out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance Era. One of the worst thing to happen to the Bible was the printing press created by Johannes Gutenburg in the 15 century but confiscated Johanne Fust due to Gutneburg’s inability to pay moneys owed. This was viewed as a problem by Christian leaders because it meant common people would soon have their hands on the Bible,therefore it would no longer be limited to priest or kings,etc. Thus you will notice the Europeans rushing their translations of the Bible,the disputes of which is the correct one…etc.

    (But this is another story)

    CONTINUED BELOW

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  15. POINT 2-

    You stated “As per the Old testament, the fist civilization originated in Mesopotamia, where any secular source will confirm is the oldest civilization (not Egypt). So God and his followers pre-date Egypt!”

    The above point was just obliferated the above pics and articles mentioned in POINT 1.

    However a couple of other points! The Sphinx,which according to multiple sources,one of which I will leave with you is now being found to date back to as far 10,000b.c which predates any biblical history and civilization you use the bible to validate. Be advised,no uncivilized group could build the Sphinx with such mathmatical proportion to the cosmos! Here is just one article on the subject matter>>>http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/parade/henryr/quest/sphinx/e

    I am under the impression that the forefront of Egyptology,the western world,are going to do everything possible to keep Egyptian/Nile Valley history in co-relation with biblical text,though its becoming increasingly undeniable and too late, so that history doesnt have to be re-written which is evident in the above article. Egyptian chronology was created through Manethos,not the bible! But lets not get off subject here!

    More info that shows civilized people prior to biblical chronology..THIS is IRREFUTABLE>> The badarian people ,who gave birth to the Egyptian civilization, who also practiced an obvious civilized lifestyle. Predates biblical civiilization!

    http://wysinger.homestead.com/badarians.html (And have yet to provide my ultimate sources because their context is provided in books which cannot be read over the internet)

    Thus the biblical history you are using as a shield is shattered versus tangible evidence presented in my sources! I could go all day on this subject. It is a ridiculous thing to use the bible to verify history in accordance with anthropological and scientfic evidence.

    Further more the civilization of Ta-Seti,also found in africa,primarily Ethiopia,predates civilization in the bible as well(ie Sumererian)

    http://africanblackrenaissance.blogspot.com/

    More articles that speak of civilizations that predate biblical civilizations>>>http://shazlyasmail.tripod.com/new_page_20.htm

    And a very detailed article…VERY INTERESTING READ AS WELL..speaks of civlizations from Africas that predate biblical scripture>>>http://shazlyasmail.tripod.com/new_page_20.htm

    All these groups are shown to have birth the civilizations of Egypt or along the Nile Valley,I should say. Also note they were all what you would call worshippers of the heaven! I could go all day on this subject. So again the bible should not be used to verify history cause EVEN if its used ITS MISSING A WHOLE PLETHRA OF HISTORY,which it cannot account for!

    POINT 3

    You stated “First off, in Buddhist texts themselves it denies the virgin birth of Buddha. Your own source says this. Secondly, Jerome did translate the Bible, but he is no prophet or Apostle. He’s just a man who had no divine inspiration. And thus he is fallible!”

    a.)My source stated MOST,not ALL, Buddhist do not accept the virgin birth concept. Also my source state”The “virgin” term as it relates to Buddha’s mother is likely due to a specific interpretation of the prophetic dream Queen Māyā is said to have had prior to conception!” Also my source mentioned in POINT 1 clearly shows the concept of Buddha is African,before Buddha was given an Aryan image and before the doctrine of Buddha changed!

    b.)Again Jerome is a well known scholar and widely accepted for his scholarship in translating the very scripture you are using to verify history.I cannot understand this. This is equivalent to saying you use Microsoft software,but refuse to pay proper respect to the very man who was extemely important in its successs,Bill Gates! He didnt invent computer software,but he translated it into a usable language! Therefore you denounce your own Christian forefather,theologian and historian! I take it you havent read up on him!

    POINT 4

    You stated ”

    “Virgin” — Here are the rules for priests straight from Leviticus 21: “And he shall take a wife in her virginity. 14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.”

    POINT-Clearly the implication here is sexual, not referring to age.” This does not disprove my sources which stated “virgin” as marriageagle woman,young woman! This text almost clearly shows the virgin to be unwedded or not of any husband,therefore marriageable as a widowed or divorce woman could not be taken because they have already been married! What reason would one have to not believe this? Again re-read the source as it provides passages from the very bible you are using validate reality,only its much more detailed>>>>>>http://www.the-goldenrule.name/Virgin_HEBREW.htm (its extremely clear)

    Futthermore it seems you overlook the etymology of word virgin and how it became to be used in relation to sex in the 12th century.again>>http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=virgin

    POINT 5

    You stated ” The Book of Isaiah —

    And here you are incorrect as I will just direct you to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the greatest literary find of antiquity. The manuscripts of the Old Testament were found dating back to 168 BC, before they ever touched “European hands.” And the consistency between those texts and the previously-oldest manuscripts from 1400 AD was 99%. And the book of Isaiah specifically is held out as the example of how similar they are….”

    Who found it?

    POINT 6

    You stated “why would that mean that the life of Jesus Christ was copied from ancient Egypt? Especially when Egypt has no god who a life anything remotely similar to that of Jesus? It just doesn’t follow logically. ”

    I never said the LIFE of Jesus was copied from ancient Egypt. Lets not be deceptive on our play of words. I clearly stated on July 8,2012 @1:46

    “I dont claim that there full lives in every single,accurate aspect was similiar but I do believe and am convinced through numerous amounts of study that one is no more than imported/exported or adopted ideologies of another!(Ie Jesus consist of plagarized ideas of older deities such as Horus/Heru,Krishna,Buddha,Osiris/Asar,Mitras,etc)!”

    However please read the following article which St. Augustine,an early forefather of the very Christian religion you glorify,states blantaly and clearly that Christianity is an already used concept 3000 years prior to Jesus/Iesous/>>>>>http://www.scribd.com/doc/12761150/Augustine-Speaks-of-a-Christianity-Before-Christ

    Also on the validity of Jesus and his life is being question now by religious scholars and priest>>>http://www.balikislam.com/profiles/blogs/jesus-seminar-a-200member

    CONTINUED

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  16. POINT 7

    You stated “As for Nimrod being Osiris, I would really suggest you look into this more. There is a great deal of evidence to support this, and the wikipedia entry on Osiris does not even look into this question. I would strongly recommend the Giza Discovery by Peter Goodgame which provides a treasure trove of evidence, academic sources and links to support this:”

    POINT-The link you provided me was very vague. Its obvious you havent thoroughly,if at all,researched the history of Asar/Osiris because if you did,you would find that he predates Menes/Narmer/him you call Nimrod. The legend of Osiris was preserved in the Ethiopian Empire which spread up to the Egyptian lands!

    My article in POINT 1 provides this information,however here is another one,which shows evidence that Asar/Osirius was being worshipped prior to Narmer/Nimrod…and please note Nimrod/Narmer never married Isis and never had a son named Horus..Asar/Osiris represents a cosmic force as do the others PLEASE READ>>>http://blackhistory.topcities.com/africapart5.html (Im aware there are articles that made the same faulty assumption you did but there is too much evidence to support the latter..including oral testimony from the indigenous Dogon Tribe)

    A PIC OF THE INCENT BURNER HE’S REFERRING TO…that is if you read the article above.

    More info on Asar as a cosmological force…http://books.google.com/books?id=dbekMz1NYUcC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=asar+represents&source=bl&ots=QaRsd3qGDU&sig=mMzpPtPOyqRcrN7PwLS71Ekce1Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1y0EUOfEBcmi2gWL0dmhCw&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=asar%20represents&f=false

    Again Asar predates Menes. Her is an article in which there is evidence that support the reality that Asar was present in the land of Anu prior to Menes reign in 1st dynastic period of Egypt!>>http://gigalresearch.com/uk/publications-pharaohs.php

    POINT 8

    You asked”So are you a Buddhist or believer in Egyptian religions?

    Hahahaha! I dont understand your question.There is no category I claim to fit in outside of “Human being”,student of history and student of science. Categorizing will not be necessary! However I will await your rebuttal and leave you this enormous amount of evidence in hopes that you enjoy the read and weigh the evidence! This subject matter can get very lengthy but I dont have the time I need and want to totally obliferate these claims you made in your article. Because be mindful we have just discussed Buddha only and have yet to

    1.) dive into the reality of other deities

    2.) provide details on the origin of Christianity among the Greeks and Romans

    3.) dive into the councils that provided the reality of Jesus and his divinity and Mary becoming the Theotokus

    4.) to deal with the worship of Oserapis/Asar-Apis/Osiris-Apis by Romans and Greeks of the 1st century

    5.) deal with a deeper understanding into the etymology of names and words(even those of bible) of ancient times as they relate to modern times

    6.) deal with the history of the translation of the Bible in deeper detail

    7.) deal with history of the Moors.

    8.) deal with more evident proof that civilizations across the world worshipping cosmological forces prior to and around the time of biblical history

    9.) deal with symbology(a language in it self) as it relates to today versus ancient times(ie the cross,ankh,etc)

    10.) deal with a plethra of other issues

    11.) :) unfortunately I dont have enought time!

    ENJOY!!

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  17. This page contains the picture of the proposed ancestor of the world(one of them). Please note I could not post the picture in the space provided so here is the link..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homo_erectus.JPG

    Here is a pic of priest head dated around 1100b.c. which validates the claim of an african prescence in Meso-americans around the time the time of Narmer/Nimrod mention in my post in POINT 1
    for which the bible doesn account for…the calender the Olmecs provided are said to date back to 3113bc >>http://www.theperspective.org/olmecs.html
    Also here is the link to the incent burner mentioned in POINT 7 which shows proof that Asar was praised in the regions outside of Egypt prior to the reign of Menes/Nimrod ..therefore Osiris is not Nimrod http://originalblackthought.blogspot.com/2009/06/they-hail-from-south-qustul-censer.html

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    • Hey Mac,

      Sorry for the long delay in our discussion. As our reader Brandon pointed out, I ended the discussion without ever replying to your last set of posts. The reason I took the break is that we got way off track from the topic – that is, was Jesus a copy of the histories/myths of pagan gods? I think that you are getting more into a discussion of the historic accomplishments of African nations. While that is interesting (I own a copy of “They Came Before Columbus” which goes into much of what you reference) it does not prove or disprove the subject of the article.

      if you have evidence or articles about Christians copying from other faiths to write the New Testament gospel accounts, please provide some and I will be glad to look at it. God bless.

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  18. Olmec head…sorry bout the last post in which I mistakenly posted article on the calender instead of the Olmec head>>>>http://2012.caliwali.com/theolmecs.htm

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    • Mac, your patience and dedication are inspiring, wonderful job. I could’t bring myself to dedicate my time to proving something here that has been proven thousands of times before.Aparently, even when you provide the evidence requested you are still wrong. That is called fanatic belief, you simply will never win, because at the end of the day, they will play the faith card and, well it’s hard to debate something that cant be proven to begin with. If you receive notice to this post, would you mind if I try to give you my contact information? I would love to invite you to do a phone interview for a small show I host. I love the fact that you not only research but have the patience to deal with… whatever this page is. great work and let me know, I think you would enjoy the work we do.

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  19. A good, severe, solid and well-documented answer to quite hard a issue that Zeitgeist claimed when it bursted out and seduced so many young people out there.

    But let this comment be my chance to point out something intrinsic about religion:

    The stories told in the Bible – and many other religious texts – are not to be taken too strongly as matter of [historical] fact! So please: every occhamist anglophones who fall so often victims of this lack of sharpness in spirit should remember the lightness of legends and their messages, the beauty of literature and its rhetoric charm… instead of letting their mind lock themselves into obnoxious arguments and deaf opinions.

    I know I am nothing but a reader. But so many times I’ve seen stupidity into such businesses.

    OB

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  20. Keep it simple..

    “The Origin of Life–Five Questions Worth Asking”
    http://www.jw.org/apps/index.html?fileformat=PDF&output=html&pub=lf&langwritten=E&option=TRGCHlZRQVNYVrXF&txtCMSLang=E

    “The Bible–What Is Its Message?”
    http://www.jw.org/apps/index.html?fileformat=PDF&output=html&pub=bm&langwritten=E&option=TRGCHlZRQVNYVrXF&txtCMSLang=E

    “What Does the Bible Really Teach?”
    http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/is-this-what-god-purposed/
    (including Appendices on the right-hand-side of page)

    Nuff said…

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  21. You’ll find that although you are mostly right especially by pointing out the inconsistencies in the book and the documentary, many of the stories “evolved” over time. Some believe that the encient gods were re-written by different cultures overtime infact there is large amounts of evidence found by simply doing a google search or researching through adequite sources. For example: Horus represented Apollo in Greek mythology and Ra represented Helios. Over time and human evolution throughout Greek times and into Roman times where Apollo was still worshiped untill Christianity arrived, Apollo’s image/statue was replaced by the image of god, not jesus … god, the father of jesus. another is the Goddess Selene was evolved into Diana in roman mythology, there is evidence to suggest this did actually occure with other gods, so why not Jesus? and I would safley say the church would have done anything in their power to conceal evidence of Jesus comming from other stories although jesus himself i believe did infact exist – of course!

    I’m not saying Jesus didnt exist, but I certianly believe that the enormous amount of evidince that I have read over the years has lead me to understand that many of jesus stories where originated by evolving stories from other religions, not all but many of them are, some slightly changed. It’s kind of like chinese whispers, but over thousands of years. the churched, including other religions, needed to, as they have over time always replaced the predessing religion with the new, if you look in meso-america it is also a classic example of how the eurpoeans populated the meso-american cultures with christian stories, where many cities and religious shrines where buried and churches built over the top. This also occured in England when christianity spread through Europe. These actions are apart of the overall evidence I have learned.

    But I like your story and your evedience, have you ever looked at the actual connections too? not just the questionable ones you’ve pointed out from a book and a film? but others?

    good luck and good read ;)

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    • Hi Griffo,

      Thanks very much for your comment and the kind words. As for other “connections” I have looked at many and what you will find is that most religions and mythologies trace back to Nimrod of Babylon, someone who in the Bible is clearly depicted as evil, a rebel, and pagan idolater. He is the actual basis for numerous dieties. And Jesus Christ has no connection to him.

      You wrote: “I’m not saying Jesus didnt exist, but I certianly believe that the enormous amount of evidince that I have read over the years has lead me to understand that many of jesus stories where originated by evolving stories from other religions, not all but many of them are, some slightly changed”

      So what evidence have you found of Christians copying the story of Jesus’ life from another religion? Please share your findings. Thanks again for your comments and I look forward to continuing the discussion, God bless.

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  22. Such arrogance as you exhibit it seems easy to come by these days.
    Speaking for God, interpreting and ignoring only the items that would respectively help and harm your case.

    None of this “origin of the story” research even matters.
    There is nothing supernatural looking out for anyone. Here’s my proof:
    1) while you may be doing well each day, able to blog your righteous heart out, thousands of faithful people who are more devout than you are going to starve tonight, watch their children die, and will not have prayers answered that their step parent not come into their room and beat them in a drunken rage.
    2) priests have been raping children in their parishes. This is a fact. The Catholic Church has known about this because at least one priest begged his bishop to help him. Their response was to RELOCATE THIS SICK DEGENERATE to another parish… Where he did it again to several more children. The bishop moved him again, where the cycle of sexual abuse continued to a total of six parishes. These children were members of the church, who trusted this man of god, His representative, and were given no protection from this omnipotent being. And the fact that the priest continued and the bishop acted dismissively without any apparent fear of divine retribution tells me that THEY THEMSELVES didn’t believe God was there to mete out a very deserved punishment. God has killed people just for turning around to look at a burning city when he said not to. Did this abhorrent act not warrant even a shaker of salt?
    3) if someone tells you that God speaks to them, not through symbols or burnt toast, but that he hears Gods voice in his head, your inclination will inexorably come to the correct supposition that this person is hallucinating. Why? God used to talk to us all the time, so why not believe he is having a discussion with the guy down the block? Because, when you get down to it, you are all fearful doubters afraid to linger on that thought. You would be correct to assume delusion in the pt with auditory hallucination.

    Where a story comes from matters as much as who made the car that ran over your dog.
    Don’t respond, just reflect.

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  23. A really good link showing Nimrod to be the starter of the pagan Mother/Child false trinity http://www.thephiladelphiafaith.org/antichrist/2_mystery_babylon/antichrist_myst_bab_nimrod_father_of_harlots_good.html

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  24. There’s so much illuminati and corruption everywhere :( Should Hold on to Christ.. He’s coming soon
    God bless u <3

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  25. Beginning and End. Your article was remarkable. Thank you.

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  26. No one seems to know that the Bibles new testament was written by the greeks, and what did they believe in? They traded knowledge with Egyptians. Horus Seth and all those Egyptian gods are the star consolations, not real beings. Horus the rising sun, Seth, the setting sun. This is fact. To trace a religions stories, just go deeper into your research. Pastors who go to schools for this, learn this. Biggest question you have to ask yourself is why are you a Christian if “Jesus” wasn’t. And how could his name be Jesus when the letter I didn’t appear to around the 1500′s. All man are sons of God. The story of the Bible is older then the age of Jesus. Adam and eve were a population of people. Christians forth christianity on people, killed, chopped of heads and placed them on beaches of Africa. what religion is so arrogant to believe you can live a life time full of sin and find God and be forgiven. I hope many have more good deeds then bad on their life line. Take the major words from the Bible, find their origin and the proof is in the pudding. May the highest gods bless you all.

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    • Hi Donell,

      Thanks very much for your comments. Given this topic, it’s really important to provide some evidence of these assertions of historical events. The New Testament was not written by Greeks. It was written by Jewish men from the province of Judea in the Roman Empire. It just so happened that Greek was the predominate language of the world at that time and in that area, but the New testament authors were not from Greece or of Greek descent.

      You say they “traded knowledge with the Egyptians”. I am not sure what you are trying to assert here nor am I sure of what evidence of this you are looking at. All throughout Scripture, Egypt is literally and symbolically portrayed as representative of the sinful, rebellious world. Hebrews 11 praises the faith of Moses for leaving Egypt to stand with God’s people. Egypt is constantly a contrast to those who are faithful to the true and living God of the Bible. So to think that the Bible is based on Egyptian mystery religion or culture is not really logical or supported by the Biblical text.

      Jesus was not Christian — Jesus preached that He was the Messiah –

      John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

      24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

      This is just one of the statements in which Jesus establishes Christianity – which is based on faith in Himself. This is not Judaism. This is not the Mosaic law. Jesus is stating unequivocally that unless you believe in Him, you will go to Hell. Jesus secured salvation by dying on the cross and His shed blood, which He called “the New Testament” which is another term for covenant. Meaning it is replacing the Old Covenant (Mosaid law). So while it may seem like Jesus was a Jew, He preached something far different from the Old Testament law.

      The “J” in Jesus – As we already discussed, the New Testament was written in Greek, not English. So Jesus is just a transliteration of his Greek name, Iesous, made for English speakers. In Yoruba it’s Jesu. In Samoan it’s Iesu. All of this is based on the Greek. And before you think that Jesus did not speak or read Greek, consider that over 90% of the quotes from the Old Testament by Jesus and the Apostles are from the Septuagint, the Bible of that day in Judea. And it was written in Greek.

      And let’s not forget Jesus said: “I am ALPHA and OMEGA” again showing that He spoke Greek and even gave Himself a Greek name.

      Christians beheading Africans – When was this? I am not sure what you are referring to.

      Finally, you mention doing “good deeds.” I know this is basically what every religion in the world except for Christianity preaches. The thing is, you accuse Christianity of being arrogant because we believe we can live a life full of sin and be forgiven. But you are the one who believes that you have it in your own power to redeem yourself for the lifetime of sins you have committed. Christianity is all about humility before God. It is about telling God “I can’t save myself. I cannot do anything to redeem myself. I cannot atone for my own clear sin. I am powerless and deserve your wrath and damnation because I am guilty.” It is at this point that we recognize the need for our Savior, Jesus Christ. And it is through putting our faith and trust in what Jesus did to redeem us that saves us. not out own actions or “goodness.” And this is how we become Christians. I just wanted to clarify.

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      • The crusades are evident enough! Jesus always gets a bad rap! He never intended this…Yes it is in our own power to redeem ourselves. You act like you have read the bible, then Have YOU? Really? Christianity teaches we are born into sin, because that is how “Man” wanted it taught, re read, Jesus was here to wake us up, Like Krishna, Buddha, and many others!, People KILL, DESTROY AND JUDGE in the name of their Religion, because theirs is right. Always trying to prove their way is right ,so sad!
        Just because we Know something Does not make it True! Seek and You shall Find! So I did this and what I found is that all Religions lead to same Path, (even Pagans with Many Gods) Will tell you there is ONE SUPREME SOURCE OF SPIRIT… Spirit is in all of Us and all this page is doing is once again dividing, causing people to JUDGE others! To prove your way is right, Jesus does not want this….Using his name to Judge , Condemn and bash others for not believing the way another might, constant war! What strikes me as funny is Christianity teaches Jews are the chosen then why don’t they believe Jesus was the Savior? No, they believe he was a Prophet, but they are the CHOSEN!! Christianity is the Baby Religion, and most know this! You would do good to get a Hebrew -Greek translation! Most people don’t even realize The Goddess is in the bible, the Council at Nivea hid her well!! The Gnostic scriptures are considered bad..Why? because a bunch a men said so? I tell you why, because to read them you see the Feminine and they wanted a Masculine dominated church so, THEY COULD CONTROL and women would be submissive and you want to follow this..Ok! The Nag Hammaddi and Dead sea scrolls are much older and to top it off they have a insert of Plato’s republic found with the Nag Hammadii scriptures!. These scriptures in these books are older than Bible.
        If your heart and mind are truly open then ,you would see we are all sparks of Divine Light good or bad and that still depends on Your perception of good or bad, what one might think is good could be bad to another…Stop Judging and sending people to Hell( the grave- greek translation see Hell in not Literal Place) I thought Jesus preached Life Not Death so stop it!!!!!! It is good to debate but no need to hurt others trying to prove your belief!
        My belief is to Love You and others, to watch my words and speak life so with this, I leave! I bless all on this thread and ask to search with your Hearts and Mind Open. Love one another and Unite cause In Unity can we stop the true evil of this world and believe me I do not give Satan that much credit!!!!!!! We are one and if you choose to stay separate so be it, but in Spirit we are truly united cause we were never separated from God, Source, Spirit to begin with, we were just taught to believe that!! Like I said just cause we know does not mean it is Truth!!!

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        • Hi Rosa,

          Thanks for your comments. You have truly motivated me to do an article on the Council of Nicea and the numerous lies about it from the fictional book the DaVinci Code. It is stunning and sad to know that a work of fiction, could so affect the beliefs of people all over the world. As I asked before in this thread – have you read the minutes of the meeting of the Council of Nicea? Have you read any historical accounts from a credible academic about what was said at this meeting? Do you realize we still have the minutes today and you can read them online?

          There was no conspiracy to pick books of the bible and suppress the Gnostic Gospels. There was no anti-”sacred feminine” conspiracy either. This subjects were never even brought up. So you are unfortunately incorrect on this point.

          As for sending people to Hell – I have no power to do this. Only God can. And listen to what Jesus said:

          Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. – Matthew 7:21-23.

          Those who do not believe in Jesus as the Son of God for the forgivenss of their sins, are not a part of the faith. They can say Jesus’ name all day long and even do things in the name of Jesus, but The Lord says He does not know them. So know that when I speak about eternal damnation and hellfire for those who do not believe it is done out of care and love. I do not want people to suffer. Especially when forgiveness and eternal life is FREE. You do not have to do any action, perform a ritual or build something to receive it. It is the GIFT of God. And if I know the cure to the greatest problem plaguing humanity (our sin), I am going to make sure I share it as much as possible.

          Jesus also said:

          Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. – John 10.

          We enter into Heaven by Jesus and Jesus only. Now you may disagree with this as this is well your right and prerogative, but it is inaccurate to try and cast Jesus as leaving options for salvation. Jesus preached an exclusive faith centered on Himself – the Messiah who died for the sins of humanity.

          You say not to judge, but you have judged me repeatedly in your comments. And that’s okay! It’s okay to judge! We all do it all the time. As I said in a prior example, if a man kidnaps a child and assaults him, am I not to think it’s bad, lest I “judge him”? Of course I can judge that person as doing something extremely evil. Christians are not commanded to sit idly by and judge none of the evil taking place in society today. We can indeed call it for what it is. But our command is to share God’s solution” FORGIVENESS. And that is what I share with you. We cannot “redeem ourselves.” We cannot atone for the countless sins we have committed over the years. But Jesus can and did. God has made it all possible. All you have to do is open your heart and believe.

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          • One: I did not get that from The Da Vinci Code and 2: the minutes are reconstructed and not all there. I apologize if you feel I judged you! God says do not judge!. Do use discernment not judgement! Don’t judge a book by it’s cover, ever heard that one…. I discern there is no Love here, and I do not feel the spirit of God or Jesus on this thread. There no Love here, just condemnation and judgment allowed, there is no Truth just arguments and theories. The world is waking up, and it will wake up to truth within their own hearts not others trying to project it! You will be pleased to know, you will here from me no more. Good luck on spreading the truth, because I know Jesus’s spirit is with me and lives in me and you cannot judge my heart!! Oh and I go to school for this stuff so yes I have had read some credible accounts! Be Blessed in your quest for truth!!!

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            • Where is your proof that the “minutes were reconstructed”? I am at a loss as to where these claims you are making are coming from if not the DaVinci Code. Even just searching the Council of Nicea on Wikipedia, they address this common mistruth from the DaVinci Code:

              A number of erroneous views have been stated regarding the council’s role in establishing the biblical canon. In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the biblical canon at the council at all.[69] The development of the biblical canon took centuries, and was nearly complete (with exceptions known as the Antilegomena, written texts whose authenticity or value is disputed) by the time the Muratorian fragment was written. (source).

              As I said earlier, you will not find any credible, academic source that says that the books of the Bible were “selected” at the Council of Nicea. Christianity had been in existence for 300 years before this Council. There were already enough writings by first and second century Christians, that you could actually find quotes from the entire New Testament in their books. The Council was convened to address a major debate at the time about the nature of Jesus Christ.

              If you have a source that supports your claims, please provide it. The one link you posted does not even mention these issues at all.

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            • Rosa,

              This article, which I have read, does not mention ANYTHING about picking books, suppressing the Gnostic Gospels or any kind of anti-feminine agenda. It actually states the real reason for the Council – to formally address the Arian heresy and to affirm that Jesus, the Son of God, is God. Did you look at this article yourself? It does not support anything you said at all.

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          • The point is , it is still a bunch of men deciding What they Think is Divinely inspired with a bunch of votes? Do people even know that the Christian churches in other countries have and have been using the Gnostic text in their churches for centuries. It wasn’t only that council there were a few but what gives any one to say what is Divinely inspired only God knows the heart we have to discern spirit and according to your page my spirit is evil cause I do not believe as you, that is not discernment that is Judgement!

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            • Hi Rosa,

              Thanks again for your comments. I will try to respond to it to convey an important point:

              “The point is , it is still a bunch of men deciding What they Think is Divinely inspired with a bunch of votes? Do people even know that the Christian churches in other countries have and have been using the Gnostic text in their churches for centuries. It wasn’t only that council there were a few but what gives any one to say what is Divinely inspired only God knows the heart we have to discern spirit and according to your page my spirit is evil cause I do not believe as you, that is not discernment that is Judgement! “

              So even when it is has been clearly demonstrated that you were wrong in your assessment of Scripture, you persist in just rejecting the Bible outright. Your allegations about the Council of Nicea were flat out wrong and you still claim “a bunch of men” voted on the Bible. That never happened. The Gnostic Gospels were written centuries after Christ and were all written under false names. Mary Magdalen did not write, “The Gospel of Mary”. Judas did not write “The Gospel of Judas.” Gnosticism is not in line with Biblical Christianity and its idea were challenged in Scripture (in the Book of Colossians).

              So with all due respect, you are clinging to arguments that hold no water historically or factually just in order to reject the Bible. This is called “suppressing the truth” in Scripture. As I said already, a person does not go to hell because of what they believe. They go to Hell because of their SIN. It is the sins you have willingly committed and continue to, that have incurred just and righteous wrath. Just as mine have. The only difference is that I am willing to humble myself before God and confess them to Him and accept His FREE gift of forgiveness.

              Why are you so resistant to Christianity? You embrace other religions with no question as to the origin of their texts, their reliability or changes over time, etc. This despite the fact that Hinduism and Buddhishm both were primarily founded by men, with texts written by men, etc. So why are you at such issue with Christianity?

                (Quote)

      • LOL, You know me so well!! I love Jesus, I love Buddha too! I also Love the Dalai Llama but I bet you think that man is evil…. As for the Nivea, Carthage, etc yes the text were around but it was still what they saw as divine inspiration.” still a bunch of men to me” As to who wrote the gospels that is to be debated….. They pretty much proved Matthew didn’t write Matthew and parts of Mark are added later .. You can look this up too! The Gnostic text from The Nag Hammadi, some are older than the New Testament dated earlier than 2nd century and some up unto the 4th century, there is debate among this too, I have a copy of it with dates when they were written. I never said I do not embrace Christianity, you did. I do not embrace ” Your” Idea of Christianity and how do you know I do not know the origin of other text? Ahahaha you think I reject Christ, very little discernment here plenty of judgement though…

        Most people don’t like the wikipedia but it is a start and you can go from there…
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_reliability_of_the_Gospels

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        • Prynhawn da/Good afternoon and Hi
          Hi Rosa
          I am glad you have a thirst for knowledge, and a passion for loving your fellow man/woman, etc. Which is very commendably in this day and age, when certain religions factions, blame people that are not of their faith or their beliefs for the ills of the worlds! I was intrigued by your comments when you referred to the Gnostic text, being older than the 2nd century New Testament (NT). Without belittling you, and I truly hope you keep-up with researching the fact of the past, the use of the term NT before the late 4th century, would be an anachronism. Book attested to be apostolic were awash in the 2nd and 3rd century with as many as 200 gospels being in circulation at that time. However, the NT as we know it today with the three synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, which are combined with that of the gospel of John, was first recorded in 367 CE, by bishop Athanasius of Alexandria (293-373), who mentioned them in his ’39th Festal Letter’ of that year.[http://www.ntcanon.org/Athanasius.shtml]
          You are quiet correct in stating that the gospels were not written by the named Aramaic speaking apostles, as we do not know who the authors were, what is known is that they were anonymous, and highly literate Greek scholars. Scholar of the New Testament have known this fact for centuries, due to the illiteracy attested to most of the disciples, which includes Peter and John, as were 90% of people of the time of Jesus. This is borne out of the fact that it is stated in the book of Acts, Verse 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.[KJV] This then makes forgeries out of the epistles I and II Peter, as aforesaid, Peter spoke Aramaic, and was an illiterate fisherman, who could not read or write, these epistle of Peter were written in Greek, by anonymous Greek scholar(s)! This has been contested by Christian apologetics, who state that Peter could of dictated to a Greek scribe, however, Professor Bart D. Ehrman, stated that for an illiterate Aramaic speaker to of dictated to a Greek scribe in scholarly Greek prose, would be highly unlikely.

          Cofion (regards)
          Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

            (Quote)

          • Hi Jero,

            This comment is a perfect example of what my consistent criticism has been of everything you post. You make a number of wild, factually inaccurate and misleading statements with no evidence. Here is an example of your blatant misinformation:

            “However, the NT as we know it today with the three synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, which are combined with that of the gospel of John, was first recorded in 367 CE, by bishop Athanasius of Alexandria (293-373), who mentioned them in his ’39th Festal Letter’ of that year.[http://www.ntcanon.org/Athanasius.shtml]

            This frankly, is utter nonsense and just patently false. The Didache, an ancient Pastors manual dating back to the late first century, not only quotes the Gospels, it refers the reader to the Gospel of Matthew 3 times. There are ancient manuscripts of the New testament dating back to the 2nd century. These two pieces of evidence alone absolutely refute your erroneous statement. But there’s more. Iraeneus, in 185 AD, quoted and affirmed 24 New Testament books, including all 4 Gospels. Hippolytus also affirmed the Gospels and 20 other books. And that was in 220 AD. Origen in 225 AD confirmed 27 New Testament books including all 4 Gospels. Eusebius, a historian, affirmed 26 New testament books, including the Gospels in 326 AD. ALL of these sources predate your fallacious date. You are in flagrant error and have not provided a shred of evidence to support your claims.

            Here is your next statement:

            “You are quiet correct in stating that the gospels were not written by the named Aramaic speaking apostles, as we do not know who the authors were, what is known is that they were anonymous, and highly literate Greek scholars. Scholar of the New Testament have known this fact for centuries, due to the illiteracy attested to most of the disciples, which includes Peter and John, as were 90% of people of the time of Jesus. “”

            Once again, you are refuted by history. The historian Papias confirms that the book of Matthew was written by Matthew, the Apostle. Matthew was a tax collector, working in one of the main trade routes for the Roman Empire at the time he became a believer. He was most certainly literate. Mark, was a disciple of the Apostle Peter and serves as scribe for his Gospel. Luke was a physician and historian. Again, literate. And John not only was literate, was permitted to write by the Roman Empire as part of the terms of his imprisonment on the isle of Patmos. You have not one historical source that states that these men were illiterate or that they somehow “plagiarized” someone else’s work or got their names slipped on the book at the last minute. You have no evidence whatsoever of anyone ever claiming authorship aside from the the named Apostles. And you ignore that clear historical line of Church fathers in the first and second centuries who directly attribute the writing of the Gospels to its named authors.

            And contrary to your assertion, the Apostles spoke Greek, as did all Jews in Judea at that time. Judea was completely occupied by the Roman Empire and ad Greek had been the lingua franca for centuries. This is supported by secular historians like Josephus and Philo who wrote in Greek, not Aramaic. There are no ancient Aramaic manuscripts. Provide evidence of one. But you will find thousands in Greek. Not to mention, that The Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostles quote the Septuagint extensively all throughout, which of course is the Greek version of the Old Testament. So once again, you are absolutely wrong and provide not a shred of any historical evidence to support any of your claims.

            And when confronted with evidence, you just move on to more baseless assertions. I pity you because rather than just being a “non-believer”, the truth is you hate God. Which is why you have spent so much time on a Christian website trying to share your religion of anti-Christianity. Despite the thousands of murders and attacks being carried out by Islam today. Despite the hundreds of thousands of women in countries like Somalia and Ethiopia suffering forced female gential mutilation in the name of Islam, you nary make a cry or show any concern for their plight. But you attempt to attack Jesus Christ constantly by citing the Crusades from over 1,200 years ago.

            But the Bible makes a very specific reference to you. Here it is:

            “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,” -Romans 1.

            Sadly, this is you Jero. You know God exists, and you are vainly fighting against him. I am sure there are many reasons you may be angry or bitter or hateful of God. We are all suffering pain. We are all suffering some trauma or frustration in life. And in our fleshly desires, God is an easy target to vent our rage and scream “why?? Why me? Why is this happening? Where are you God??” and then turn into an atheist or “skeptic” as a I presume you purport to be. But what you must understand is that our suffering is of our own design. It is our own sin as a race, that has brought death, illness, pain suffering and grief at the prospect of death, into our lives. And that blinds us from the need to reconcile with God. It’s easier to think we are not at fault and look elsewhere. But the Bible is clear “ALL have sinned.” We all have fallen short of God’s glory. We all deserve the pain we experience and much worse. But the good news is that God, in His mercy, is willing to forgive us for that sin and redeem us from this horrible fate. Many have come and gone, just like you, raising incorrect, baseless accusations against the Bible. And where are they now? Dead. But the Bible still stands. And just like those people you and I are going to die one day. It could be this week. And what will you do when you stand before the God you are waging a campaign against? Talk about the crusades? Talk about Catholics killing people? Well guess what, they are sinners just like YOU. And just like me. So the more you condemn them, the more you condemn yourself to the pits of hell and the lake of fire.

            Rather then go that route, why not get to know God with an open heart, not anger and vain “wisdom”. The Lord says: “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”(Isaiah 1:18). God is willing to freely forgive you. And He proved His love by sending Jesus Christ to die for you. I hope and pray you will consider God’s offer and not remain stubborn in your campaign against Him.

            Romans 10:13: “Whosoever shall call upon the name of The Lord shall be saved.”

              (Quote)

            • Bore da/Good morning and Hi
              Hi B&E
              Sorry for my delay in getting back to you, I have been recuperating elsewhere and was banned from using my computer, however, your comments to myself are also tardy as I wrote this comment some time back.
              On your assumption that I make wild, factually inaccurate and misleading statements, are incorrect on your part. You have misread my comments, I wrote: “However, the NT as we know it today with the three synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, which are combined with that of the gospel of John, was first recorded in 367 CE, by bishop Athanasius of Alexandria (293-373), who mentioned them in his ‘39th Festal Letter’ of that year.[http://www.ntcanon.org/Athanasius.shtml] What I am refering to, is that the NT (New Testament) as a standard with the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was first recorded by Athanasius in 367, as I stated. Prior to that date the gospels were separate or were linked to a myriad (200 or more) of other man-made gospels, which were awash at the time in question.
              On the question of the authorship of the gospels, I am also correct! The disciples were Aramaic speakers, and not one of them was a scholar, or could converse or write in Greek. The consensus amongst NT scholarship are unanimous, in that the NT was written by anonymous Greek scholars, and not Aramaic illiterate fishermen, such as some of the disciples. Even the NT exposes Peter and John as illiterate fishermen: Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.[KJV] Do you really think the illiterate fisherman John wrote the gospel of John in scholarly Greek? In addition the epistle of Peter have for a long time have also been known as forgeries! On the subject of forgeries within the NT, Prof. Bart D. Ehrman wrote: Many of the New Testament’s forgeries were manufactured by early Christian leaders trying to settle theological feuds.
              You cite Papias the Hearer, an ancient church-father who is known for his oral and not written work, with very little known about him, his date of birth or death, and we only know of him from other later writers, etc.
              On your biblical quotes, you can keep them for some other unsuspecting illiterate, who will unwittingly fall for such superstitions. The one thing the early Christian Church feared were educators and education of the masses, and it was education that allowed me to see the truth.

              Cofion (regards)

              Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                (Quote)

      • I learned something very important when looking for facts and proof of the “Christian Trinity”, which I fully supported. Once again I have found a deception of the most clever devious workers of inequity. Yehowah is our Father and his son the “Messiah” is Yehowshuwa,who was born Immanuel (meaning the Lord is with us) This last verse,Matthew 4:10, clearly states that there is only one Almighty Yehowah, and the his Son Yehowshuwa the Messiah, came to announce that we are to worship Yehowah his father, and him only.
        This also shows that the Devil is in control of all the kingdoms here on earth.There is no trinity, it is an aspect of the Catholic Church. Mistranslations have hidden the real names in the original scriptures. So the “Trinity” is completely Satanic and based on sun worship no matter where it is used. check this link http://ro-jo-yo.hubpages.com/hub/Yehowshuwa Love your neighbor as you would yourself

          (Quote)

        • Bore Da/Good Morning and Hi
          Hi Truthy1
          I sincerely mean this without any malice—that it is refreshing to see a Christian researching the facts of his or her own religion, and finding the truth about the workings and deceptions of Christian zealots of the past. These were men driven by religious delusions, who would stop at nothing to deceive, and call their lies—the gospel truth! As a young boy, I took what my church elders said as truth, it was only my quest for knowledge of the past that I found the truth of my own nations history and that of my religion!

          Cofion gorau (Best regards)

          Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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        • How can Jesus who came in His Fathers name come as Zeus( the god of freemasonry) who by unsurping his father comes in his own name in the many Pagan names like Krisna etc. & that “own” name is called “Avatar”, As for anyone who tries to understand the Father & the Son can only do so if the words of Jesus of the manner ” You know not the Father neither the Son , but them unto whom the Son pleases to reveal” been revealed ? Moreover any one who rejects the Son rejects the Father, to a people who have rejected the Son coming up with what is called “Sacred Name” stuff trying to define God by his name when they themselves have not the revelation, falling into the error of legalism whereby mistaking/misrepresenting the name Jesus, come of the adversary. To conclude Zeus is who he is & Jesus is Jesus . Christ Jesus gave us to call God as “Our Father” which is to say is the name He calls, is also the name by which the Holy Spirit calls the Father – “ABBA”. .So why all this name confusions, is also to understand that The OT by itself is an incomplete one.
          There was this man of facts & proof called Augustine who went about trying to understand Father, Son & Holy Spirit, three separate persons in one God , to the perfect unity by which may get his unity in the perfection by the said unity, not to be confused with one person as three gods like Hinduism represented by one body with three heads & in this case the heads are in perpetual disunity. Now Augustine saw a young child trying to empty the Mediterranean Sea into a small hole dug in the sea sand & when Augustine appraised the child about his folly, the child replied “The same way you try to understand the Father, Son & Holy Spirit.” In other words Impossible by Intellectualism, possible in the Spirit.

            (Quote)

          • Hi Abey
            The Trinity has baffled the greatest minds throughout history, even our greatest mathematicians of our age cannot fathom the mentality of the ancient church-father on this subject of 3 =1, and 1=3. Which is the topic of these commentaries ‘Was Jesus a Copy of Horus, Mithras, Krishna, Dionysus and Other Pagan Gods?’ The answer is inevitably Yes! Christianity adopted the Trinity from the religions of the then ancient world. As Horus (the Son), Isis (the mother), and Osiris (the father) were one such Egyptian Trinity, amongst several of the ancient world deities. With Christianity seeking covert, it allowed itself to adopt Pagan ways to win such converts, that is why 80% of Christianity is of Pagan origin.
            And yes, mistranslations have played a large part in Christianity’s bad reputation in the authenticity game, with early church-father changing the rules to suit their doctrines, and according to my Young’s Concordance, Yehowshuwa is the correct name for the man known as Christ, with Jesus being the mistranslation from Hebrew to Greek and Greek into Englisce/English, etc. The letter ‘J’ was virtually unknown before the 15th century in Europe, my own language (the oldest in Europe) spells Jesus with an I(i) Iesu (in some of my nations ancient manuscripts it was often spelt with a ‘Y’), which is similar to classically Latin Iesus.

            Cofion gorau (Best regards)

            Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

              (Quote)

            • Jero – Once again, you present no evidence of any plagiarism by Christians of Egyptian mythology. The Egyptians had a pantheon, not a trinity. Where are the Christian counterparts to Geb, Thoth, Tarwaret, Anubis, Nut, Hathor and many others? You just ignore the facts in favor of your blatant misinformation. Additionally, it’s clear that the story of Horus and the Gospel of Jesus have nothing in common. Similarly there is no correleation between Osiris and God the Father at all. Obviously the same applies to Isis and The Holy Spirit. You have no historical source. No academic references. These are just your own theories done in your campaign of misinformation as a vain attempt to attack Christianity.

              And regarding Jesus’ name. The name of The Lord Jesus Christ is Ἰησοῦς. Or Iesous. The letter”J” is a part of English and has nothing to do with His Greek name at all. There is no mistranslation. As the English language developed, the letter J was incorporated. And again, you provide no evidence whatsoever to support your “Jesus name conspiracy.”

              IN all your critique Jero, again, I ask, what is your religion? Do you worship the Egyptian gods? Or Mithras? What is the correct spiritual path to follow?

                (Quote)

              • Prynhawn da/Good afternoon and Hi
                Hi B&E
                The current teachings of most Christian churches is that their God is all three (the Trinity): God the Father; God the Son; and God the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and that Jesus is God! However, it is a 4th century adoption of earlier Pagan beliefs, from the Babylonians, Greeks, and Egyptian godheads. What is surprising is that the Trinity in Christianity did not appear till third centuries after the supposed death of their saviour, and for the first three centuries of Christianity, the Trinity did not exist.
                This is what the the book of Numbers say’s of Jesus and the Trinity: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?[Numbers 23:19 KJV] Even Nestorius preached a sermon against calling the virgin Mary ‘the mother of God,’ declaring ‘she did not bear a deity, she bore a man.’ This is what the reference books say on the Trinity: ‘…scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the Old Testament or New Testament.’ If the Trinity is a cornerstone of Christianity then how did the church of the first three centuries get along so well without it? If the Trinity is a cornerstone of Christianity then why is it not mentioned in the Bible?[The Encyclopedia Americana 1956]. I could give many more quote of likewise material from several distinguished references, on the matter.

                Cofion (regards)

                Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                  (Quote)

          • When it comes to the Essence of the name Jesus which is Christ, the language whether it be English or any other is of no importance. For language is only a tool for communication & by itself has no revelation, other than to express that which has been revealed., the way of men, unlike the way of the Spirit brings in the whole essence of the expression not involving any language , is like saying when God speaks there is no medium, but for the sake of the fallen man comes by what is called “Tongues’”
            Now to the truth of the phrase “Unity is in the diversity” & this unity among men who is diverse, even created so & increasing by the day , can only be by HIS unity unto Himself called ‘The Father, Son , Holy Spirit” in one God, for in this perfection is contained all of diverseness that which was/is/will be, the whole essence of the Gospel , even to his two Commandments 1) Love thy God 2) Love one another, for in it hangs all the Law & Prophets, condensed.
            It is but to known also that one who comes in his own name by the “avatar” through “Unsurping” is devoid of these, but acts as if & this can only be discerned through the Spirit, the Spirit of truth, which knows no lie.

              (Quote)

  27. I am a follower of Jesus and I am a big believer. I read this entire post and spent a lot of time rereading it. Dr O did nothing to challenge me. However I was inticed to think about things by Mac. I was very disappointed that you stopped responding to him. I agree he did win the debate regarding prior civilizations and religions before the time of Jesus and or the Old Testament. Or did he? Even if he did I do not see how he proved Jesus was made up or not real. And I have yet to see proof Jesus was created from some prior figure. Also he stated that the historical accounts of Jesus in that Jewish history document was false and you said nothing to that. So are they? You both started a long argument of Buddha and other religions timelines that have nothing to do with whether Jesus was real or not. I want to see evidence from Mac that Jesus was made up…..

      (Quote)

    • Hi Brandon,

      Thanks so much for your comment! I indeed did not intend to end the debate with Mac but it was getting very, very sidetracked. As you correctly pointed out, he started turning the discussion into a “who was the first civilization” and facts about ancient African culture and history that while interesting, are not relevant to the discussion at hand – namely, was Jesus a copy of pagan gods. So that is why I took a break from the discussion. But I will respond to Mac and see if he wants to re-center the discussion and get back on topic.

      You also very accurately point out that Mac has provided no evidence whatsoever that of Christians copying the story of Jesus’ life from other pagan religions.

      Thanks for the reminder and God bless!

        (Quote)

  28. Imsorryforyourfaith says:

    If you are a Christian. This entire ‘blog’ is a farce. Were you there? Did you witness all these events? Because you read something somewhere and your OPINION is that it is true does not make it so. Unless you were there to bare witness, im sorry, but you have 0 valid points.

      (Quote)

  29. Thank you for responding back to me and for this website in general. I found this blog of yours because one night I was just trying to google information from those who think Jesus is fake to see if there was something I may look into and the only eye opener I found was the Zeitgeist video about the pagan gods. It actually stopped me in my tracks because I never heard those theories before. Needless to say you proved how non credible that video was and also how uncredible they are. Not that I already knew. I am glad you are doing this so non believers can read and have an educated look at Jesus. Of course there will ALWAYS be those who are too ignorant, scared, or doomed to believe but also thank you for responding to them with kindness like you do. It shows the true christian way to go about it. God bless you also

      (Quote)

  30. I would like imsorryforyourfaith to answer this please. Does he believe in anything prior to his birthday? Because he wasnt there. Or lets go a step further to give him credit. Does he believe anything before cameras, pictures, etc were created? Because those things he cannot see! If he does then he should know that makes him a hypocrit for believing in anything prior to 1840 while making non educated and rash remarks like the one above.

      (Quote)

  31. this was a great article , though i dint belive zeitgiest i cudnt assume yours to be perfectly sane …
    1. you have quoted researchers who have contexted myths to their view points based not based on exhaustive analysis.
    2. youve asked for proofs and analysis , neither do u have.
    3. youve taken points from bible to be true … i am thinking you,re yet another bible school dropout.lol
    4. something that you might already know , is that you and i are safe of feel so due to something called conscioisness , especially guilty conciousness .. which prevents ppl from crimes n their concioisness knows its going to be terrible after commiting , but if u or as per you christianity propogates and claims that even if someone commit sin and ask for repentence and he gives .. bam ! so now i get all those killings.so easy hun !
    5. hindu and buddhist texts shud never be reffered for english translations . their meanings differ .
    6. im not a follower of christ but i oly dont believe false claims , humiliating other religion and shoving others to be small !

    god bless

      (Quote)

    • TruthSeeker says:

      Rejo,

      Yahushuah became a one time offering instead
      Of Us, in place of Us to remove the Death Penalty
      For the willful, Rebelious, Intentional Sins we
      Have committed. A truly, genuinely repented
      Heart who comes to Love Yahuwah wholeheartedly
      Would never commit the same INTENTIONAL,
      WILLFUL, REBELIOUS SIN. Otherwise, the offering
      Is no longer available for such a sin. Romans 13:2
      Clearly states the fact;

      Hebrews 10:26-31;

      28 Someone who disregards the Torah of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses.[b] 29 Think how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God; who has treated as something common the blood of the covenant[c] which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of God’s grace!

      30 For the One we know is the One who said,

      “Vengeance is my responsibility;
      I will repay,”
      and then said,

      “Adonai will judge his people.”[d]
      31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

      So your assertion A REDDEEMED person can go ahead
      And murder someone and then ask for FORGIVNESS and
      Face no consequences is incorrect.

      Now, there is also an unintentional sin, which
      a person did not commit intentionally for which
      animals and other things were offered to remit it
      is the one a person can ask Yahuwah directly
      for forgivness. Yahushuah’s Desth negated the need for
      Sacrificial system for Unintentional sin. It will be restored
      when Third Temple will be rebuild, however.

      Shalom.

        (Quote)

      • TruthSeeker says:

        Pardon! I have left out TWO VERSES from Hebrews
        10. And they ARE VERY Important When it comes
        To willful sin;

        Hebrews 10:26-27;

        26 For if DELIBERATELY CONTINUE TO SIN after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, of raging fire that will consume the enemies.[a]

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  32. Amen Rahh says:

    I am being told that Jesus did not exist. That he was a made up character in 390AD. From all that you have said, It seems like one myth attacking another myth. You said there are thousands of historical writings which show Jesus lived and was crucified. Please bring this evidence so we can end this myth attack stuff.

      (Quote)

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      (Quote)

  34. Mac(the real one) says:

    Mac:
    Beginning and End. Your article was remarkable. Thank you.

    Some one else posted this. I was not me. Im nor sure who is posing as me in the forum but I did not post anything to the effect of this article being remarkable. I have yet to post my continuing argument,or presentation of facts.

      (Quote)

  35. Mac(the real one) says:

    Brandon:
    I am a follower of Jesus and I am a big believer.I read this entire post and spent a lot of time rereading it.Dr O did nothing to challenge me.However I was inticed to think about things by Mac.I was very disappointed that you stopped responding to him.I agree he did win the debate regarding prior civilizations and religions before the time of Jesus and or the Old Testament.Or did he? Even if he did I do not see how he proved Jesus was made up or not real.And I have yet to see proof Jesus was created from some prior figure.Also he stated that the historical accounts of Jesus in that Jewish history document was false and you said nothing to that. So are they? You both started a long argument of Buddha and other religions timelines that have nothing to do with whether Jesus was real or not.I want to see evidence from Mac that Jesus was made up…..

    Thanks for the acknowledgment. The information originally present was to show how history and the bible are independent of each other. We cannot use a book that hardly has an author to validate historical facts. This is not accepted in the world of scholarship and the bible is not included as a credible source in the realm of history. The information I presented in regards to Buddha was to show that he was born of what was claimed tot be a virgin,not in the sense of sexual intercourse,as that meaning came in the 14-15th century many years aftter the New Testament was supposedly constructed.. I provided the source and all. After doing such then it should have been clear that the misconception depicted here is that virgin refers to no sexual intercourse as this is untrue in early history, After knocking down that gate,we then open up the reality of how their were other divine mothers referred to as virgins including Isis.. The presentation also showed or demonstrated how earlier cultures that have existed since the beginning had a deep and profound respect for the cosmos,as they knew this was the source of creation as science has CONFIRMED here now in modern times. Hence it was pure in nature until the arrival of primitive minded groups who would soon turn cosmic forces into the personification of a human being. Mind you that all cultures had the SAME perspective in religious ideology,until arrival of the said Iesous or Yeshua which has been propragagted by this said group. In proving my point,I like to cover as much ground as possible,so that i leave no leaks in my presentation.

      (Quote)

    • 1 John 4:7-21 says:

      In response to Mac(the real one):
      “earlier cultures that have existed since the beginning had a deep and profound respect for the cosmos, as they knew this was the source of creation as science has CONFIRMED here now in modern times. Hence it was pure in nature until the arrival of the said Iesous or Yeshua which has been propagated by this said group.”

      “He who loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.” (Prov 12:1)
      “knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something , he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.” (1 Cor 8:1-4)

      1 Foolish by nature were all who were in ignorance of God,
      and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing the one who is,
      and from studying the works did not discern the artisan;
      2 Instead either fire, or wind, or the swift air,
      or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water,
      or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods.
      3 Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods,
      let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these;
      for the original source of beauty fashioned them.
      4 Or if they were struck by their might and energy,
      let them realize from these things how much more powerful is the one who made them.
      5 For from the greatness and the beauty of created things
      their original author, by analogy, is seen.
      6 But yet, for these the blame is less;
      For they have gone astray perhaps,
      though they seek God and wish to find him.
      7 For they search busily among his works,
      but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair.
      8 But again, not even these are pardonable.
      9 For if they so far succeeded in knowledge
      that they could speculate about the world,
      how did they not more quickly find its Lord?
      10 But wretched are they, and in dead things are their hopes,
      who termed gods things made by human hands:
      Gold and silver, the product of art, and images of beasts,
      or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand. (Wis 13:1-10)

        (Quote)

      • 1 John 4:7-21 says:

        THE ORIGIN AND EVILS OF IDOLATRY

        12 For the source of wantonness is the devising of idols; and their invention, a corruption of life. 13 For in the beginning they were not, nor can they ever continue; 14 for from human emptiness they came into the world, and therefore a sudden end is devised for them. 15 For a father, afflicted with untimely mourning, made an image of the child so quickly taken from him, And now honored as a god what once was dead and handed down to his household mysteries and sacrifices. 16 Then, in the course of time, the impious practice gained strength and was observed as law, and graven things were worshiped by royal decrees. 17 People who lived so far away that they could not honor him in his presence copied the appearance of the distant king
        And made a public image of him they wished to honor,
        out of zeal to flatter the absent one as though present. 18 And to promote this observance among those to whom it was strange, the artisan’s ambition provided a stimulus. 19 For he, perhaps in his determination to please the ruler, labored over the likeness to the best of his skill; 20 And the masses, drawn by the charm of the workmanship, soon took as an object of worship the one who shortly before was honored as a human being. 23 And this became a snare for the world, that people enslaved to either grief or tyranny conferred the incommunicable Name on stones and wood. 22 Then it was not enough for them to err in their knowledge of God; but even though they live in a great war resulting from ignorance, they call such evils peace. 23 For while they practice either child sacrifices or occult mysteries, or frenzied carousing in exotic rites, 24 They no longer respect either lives or purity of marriage; but they either waylay and kill each other, or aggrieve each other by adultery. 25 And all is confusion—blood and murder, theft and guile, corruption, faithlessness, turmoil, perjury, 26 Disturbance of good people, neglect of gratitude, besmirching of souls, unnatural lust, disorder in marriage, adultery and shamelessness. 27 For the worship of infamous idols is the reason and source and extreme of all evil. 28 For they either go mad with enjoyment, or prophesy lies, or live lawlessly or lightly perjure themselves. 29 For as their trust is in lifeless idols, they expect no harm when they have sworn falsely. 30 But on both counts justice shall overtake them: because they thought perversely of God by devoting themselves to idols, and because they deliberately swore false oaths, despising piety. 31 For it is not the might of those by whom they swear, but the just retribution of sinners, that ever follows upon the transgression of the wicked.
        May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. My Love to all of you in Christ Jesus. Amen.

          (Quote)

  36. Mac(the real one) says:

    Maybe I’ll take another approach and deal with the incorrect interpretations you are constructing and then we can open the flood gates.
    You stated in your presentation “According to Egyptian mythological history, Horus’s birthday is celebrated in the season of Khoiak, which runs in the months of October and November, not December 25th” This does not correspond with any source I have encountered. In fact even Wiki states “Koiak /ˈkʰɔjæk/ (Coptic: Ⲕⲟⲓⲁⲕ Koiak /ˈkɔjak/ or Ⲕⲓⲁϩⲕ Kiahk /ˈkijaxk/), is the fourth month of the Coptic calendar. It lies between December 10 and January 8 of the Gregorian calendar. The month of Koiak is also the fourth month of the Season of ‘Akhet’ (Inundation) in Ancient Egypt.” This date could very well be Dec. 25th. Here it is shown that the very introduction of your presentation is misleading. Link below.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koiak
    Also in a second Wiki link it states of the Coptic Egyptian calender “Until the 16th century, 25 December coincided with 29 Koiak of the Coptic calendar. However, upon the introduction of the Gregorian calendar in 1582, 25 December shifted 10 days earlier in comparison with the Julian and Coptic calendars.”
    Uh oh! More to come.Link below
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_calendar

      (Quote)

  37. Mac(the real one) says:

    Beginning and End you stated
    “,,was that Horus was born from his mother Isis, who was not a virgin, but rather a widow of the slain Osiris. Through sorcery, Isis, assembled the body of Osiris and was impregnated with his phallus. Clearly this was a sexual union and not a virgin birth”.
    Again I have proven in my earlier presentation that “virgin” as it related to Isis was not meaning “no sexual union” as that meaning didnt occur til aorund 14-15th century. I also provided a source that clearly shows it mean “maiden,marriagleable girl” in its noun form and means “clean” in its adjective form prior to medeival meaning of “no sexual intercourse.: also you failed to mention Isis represents a a realm of different cosmic realities and not that of a human,although her attributes may have been fitted toward the feminine human principle as well. This was mythology,not a literal person. Very clever and deceptive,but not unwitnessed. Futhermore to prove Isis was referred to as a virgin even by her own admission from the primary source is the inscriptions of “hwn.t wr.t” which means which blantanly refers to sis as “great maiden(virgin)”. Listed is a book and the primary picture source
    1. )http://books.google.com/books?id=ZS4DAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=hwn.t+wr.t&source=bl&ots=Eu3T2t5Y-X&sig=rwMZnVEHNEEbjrBvkhYipc90QF8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lzD_UInDHcX2qwHQ74G4Cg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=hwn.t%20wr.t&f=false

    2.) Pic of the primary source>>>http://truthbeknown.com/images/isisgreatvirgin.jpg
    CLEARLY SHOWING SHE WAS A “VIRGIN” Lets continue
    3.) Dictionary meaning of virgin clearly validating my point further.>>http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin
    Furthermore the origin of virgin is Virgo….which is what?…..A cosmic principle,which is what Isis essentially represented in African history. Sorry to zone in on this issue so tought,just pointing out to the spectators the obvious.

    You stated “Additionally, some of have said the 12 signs of the zodiac are the “disciples” of Horus. Even if this were the case, they are just stars and not actual people who followed Horus, preached about him or recorded his life. This is another empty and false claim.” If it is understood that Horus or Heru in literature was a personification of the Sun or solar deity,then it should not be hard to understand the zodiac signs as followers of the Sun or Horus during its yearly travel as well as the 12 hours of day and of night as the Sun travel daily. Even in looking at the Egyptian calender one can see four of the Shemsu of whom MAY possibly be claimed to follow Horus>>> Oh and would this be the four shemsu as stated by Glen Miller?lol
    Link of the below months and more detailed diagram here>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_calendar

    Also supported by even more scholarship is the following >>Egyptologist Erik Hornung wrote that “There was an obvious analogy between the Horus child and the baby Jesus and the care they received from their sacred mothers; long before Christianity, Isis had borne the epithet ‘mother of the god.’”. Erik Hornung also showed evidence of the claim that Horus had 12 followers in his daily movement from a celestial standpoint. It is depicted in a scene called Amuduat on tomb of Thutmose III also noted in his book “Ancient Books of the Afterlife”>>reference>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amduat

    First of Akhet
    Second of Akhet
    hird of Akhet
    Fourth of Akhet
    First of Peret
    Second of Peret
    Third of Peret
    Fourth of Peret
    First of Shemu #1
    Second of Shemu #2
    Third of Shemu #3
    Fourth of Shemu #4
    Or are the four Shemsu you referring to the cardinal direction,or the forces of nature,(wind,water,earth,fire) or the four states of matter (liquid,solid,gas,plasma)? Just asking. Please dont rebuttal with a “Your sources are not valid or credible” or “Your dates are post Egyptian” or any other nonsense defense that would keep you from validating your false claims. The proof presented in this presentation now places the task of validating your claims while simultaneously unvaldating mines in a logical fashion. In this short presentation I have made it as simply as possible to track the information which proves your claims listed as false. Please be advised I dont post this info in an attempt to side with “zeitgeist” but in the effort of validating my claim that ” “I dont claim that there full lives in every single,accurate aspect was similiar but I do believe and am convinced through numerous amounts of study that one is no more than imported/exported or adopted ideologies of another!(Ie Jesus consist of plagarized ideas of older deities such as Horus/Heru,Krishna,Buddha,Osiris/Asar,Mitras,etc)!”
    Much more to come,if i dont get bored..as this is just the tip of the iceberg.

      (Quote)

  38. Mac(the real one) says:

    Brandon:
    I would like imsorryforyourfaith to answer this please. Does he believe in anything prior to his birthday? Because he wasnt there.Or lets go a step further to give him credit.Does he believe anything before cameras, pictures, etc were created?Because those things he cannot see!If he does then he should know that makes him a hypocrit for believing in anything prior to 1840 while making non educated and rash remarks like the one above.

    “addressed to Beginning and End”
    Maybe I’ll take another approach and deal with the incorrect interpretations you are constructing and then we can open the flood gates.
    You stated in your presentation “According to Egyptian mythological history, Horus’s birthday is celebrated in the season of Khoiak, which runs in the months of October and November, not December 25th” This does not correspond with any source I have encountered. In fact even Wiki states “Koiak /ˈkʰɔjæk/ (Coptic: Ⲕⲟⲓⲁⲕ Koiak /ˈkɔjak/ or Ⲕⲓⲁϩⲕ Kiahk /ˈkijaxk/), is the fourth month of the Coptic calendar. It lies between December 10 and January 8 of the Gregorian calendar. The month of Koiak is also the fourth month of the Season of ‘Akhet’ (Inundation) in Ancient Egypt.” This date could very well be Dec. 25th. Here it is shown that the very introduction of your presentation is misleading. Link below.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koiak
    Also in a second Wiki link it states of the Coptic Egyptian calender “Until the 16th century, 25 December coincided with 29 Koiak of the Coptic calendar. However, upon the introduction of the Gregorian calendar in 1582, 25 December shifted 10 days earlier in comparison with the Julian and Coptic calendars.”
    Uh oh! More to come.Link below
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_calendar

    Beginning and End you stated
    “,,was that Horus was born from his mother Isis, who was not a virgin, but rather a widow of the slain Osiris. Through sorcery, Isis, assembled the body of Osiris and was impregnated with his phallus. Clearly this was a sexual union and not a virgin birth”.
    Again I have proven in my earlier presentation that “virgin” as it related to Isis was not meaning “no sexual union” as that meaning didnt occur til aorund 12-15th century. I also provided a source that clearly shows it mean “maiden,marriagleable girl” in its noun form and means “clean” in its adjective form prior to medeival meaning of “no sexual intercourse.: also you failed to mention Isis represents a a realm of different cosmic realities and not that of a human,although her attributes may have been fitted toward the feminine human principle as well. This was mythology,not a literal person. Very clever and deceptive,but not unwitnessed. Futhermore to prove Isis was referred to as a virgin even by her own admission from the primary source is the inscriptions of “hwn.t wr.t” which means which blantanly refers to sis as “great maiden(virgin)”. Listed is a book and the primary picture source
    1. )http://books.google.com/books?id=ZS4DAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=hwn.t+wr.t&source=bl&ots=Eu3T2t5Y-X&sig=rwMZnVEHNEEbjrBvkhYipc90QF8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lzD_UInDHcX2qwHQ74G4Cg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=hwn.t%20wr.t&f=false
    2.) Pic of the primary source>>>http://truthbeknown.com/images/isisgreatvirgin.jpg
    CLEARLY SHOWING SHE WAS A “VIRGIN” Lets continue
    3.) Dictionary meaning of virgin clearly validating my point further.>>http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin
    Furthermore the origin of virgin is Virgo….which is what?…..A cosmic principle,which is what Isis essentially represented in African history. Sorry to zone in on this issue so tought,just pointing out to the spectators the obvious.
    You stated “Additionally, some of have said the 12 signs of the zodiac are the “disciples” of Horus. Even if this were the case, they are just stars and not actual people who followed Horus, preached about him or recorded his life. This is another empty and false claim.” If it is understood that Horus or Heru in literature was a personification of the Sun or solar deity,then it should not be hard to understand the zodiac signs as followers of the Sun or Horus during its yearly travel as well as the 12 hours of day and of night as the Sun travel daily. Even in looking at the Egyptian calender one can see four of the Shemsu of whom MAY possibly be claimed to follow Horus>>> Oh and would this be the four shemsu as stated by Glen Miller?lol
    Link of the below months and more detailed diagram here>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_calendar
    Also supported by even more scholarship is the following >>Egyptologist Erik Hornung wrote that “There was an obvious analogy between the Horus child and the baby Jesus and the care they received from their sacred mothers; long before Christianity, Isis had borne the epithet ‘mother of the god.’”. Erik Hornung also showed evidence of the claim that Horus had 12 followers in his daily movement from a celestial standpoint. It is depicted in a scene called Amuduat on tomb of Thutmose III also noted in his book “Ancient Books of the Afterlife”>>reference>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amduat
    First of Akhet
    Second of Akhet
    hird of Akhet
    Fourth of Akhet
    First of Peret
    Second of Peret
    Third of Peret
    Fourth of Peret
    First of Shemu #1
    Second of Shemu #2
    Third of Shemu #3
    Fourth of Shemu #4
    Or are the four Shemsu you referring to the cardinal direction,or the forces of nature,(wind,water,earth,fire) or the four states of matter (liquid,solid,gas,plasma)? Just asking. Please dont rebuttal with a “Your sources are not valid or credible” or “Your dates are post Egyptian” or any other nonsense defense that would keep you from validating your false claims. The proof presented in this presentation now places the task of validating your claims while simultaneously unvaldating mines in a logical fashion. In this short presentation I have made it as simply as possible to track the information which proves your claims listed as false. Please be advised I dont post this info in an attempt to side with “zeitgeist” but in the effort of validating my claim that ” “I dont claim that there full lives in every single,accurate aspect was similiar but I do believe and am convinced through numerous amounts of study that one is no more than imported/exported or adopted ideologies of another!(Ie Jesus consist of plagarized ideas of older deities such as Horus/Heru,Krishna,Buddha,Osiris/Asar,Mitras,etc)!”
    Much more to come,if i dont get bored..as this is just the tip of the iceberg.

      (Quote)

    • Hi Mac,

      Thanks for your response. I will just make a few comments in response.

      1. Date of Horus’ birth – With all due respect, Wikipedia, is a user-supplied resource, so it’s information will vary from time to time from those of academics. I will cite one.

      The Egyptologist Louis B. Mikhail argued that the ritual associated with the god Osiris, performed during the Egyptian month Khoiak (mid-September to mid-October)” source

      Khoaik in November (source)

      Furthermore, as stated in the article, even if Horus was born on December 25th, it’s meaningless and irrelevant, because that date does not appear in the Bible and is not the birthday of Jesus Christ. This argument fails on several levels.

      2. “Virgin” vs. “Maiden” - While a dictionary can provide a definition of a word that is in a text, it is not the primary source. The primary source is the context of the text in question.

      And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus…34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. – Luke 1:30-35.

      The Bible is 100% clear that Mary was a virgin, as in never having been with a man. So the argument of whether the word is defined as “maiden” or “young girl” is again, entirely irrelevant. Isis was not a virgin. She copulated with her husband’s phallus, received his DNA and gave birth to her son. Mary was a virgin, as in, never having had relations with a man. This is how you interpret a text.

      I am just trying to give some perspective here. There is no real link between Horus and Jesus Christ whatsoever. Neither you, or the Zeitgeist film, have provided any evidence of BIblical authors copying the story of Horus, to write the Gospels. Zero. Additionally, in the Bible, Egypt and its pantheon of satanic deities, are constantly referred to as spiritual enemies of God and His people. Egypt is like the epitome of the sinful, satanic rebellious world and the occult. So think this would be the basis for Christ’s life story is just illogical on its face.

        (Quote)

    • TruthSeeker says:

      Mac, you are all over the place with your astrology
      and Egyptian mythologies. Miriam was a virgin,
      Whose hymen was not broken before she conceived.
      She prophesized to give a birth to a future king
      Of Jews by prophet Isaiah. Indeed, original hebrew
      state in Isaiha 7:14 Almah( maiden, young woman,
      a woman of a child bearing age), however it was
      Translated into Greek as parthenos in Septuagint,
      which means precisely that A VIRGIN – a woman
      who has never yet had an intercourse. Strong’s
      Lexicon # 3933,  Definition
      a virgin
      a marriageable maiden
      a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
      one’s marriageable daughter
      a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity
      one who has never had intercourse with women
      So, it is evident that Almah aludes the chastity
      of a childbearing young woman, which Septuagint
      only confirms is the case. Also, it is imperative to understand
      that Miriam would become bethroned once giving
      a yes to Joseph to be his wife and had to keep
      Her virginity to him alone. There is no surprise then
      she stated in NT she never knew( has been sexual)
      with any man.

      Another thing I wanted out is that Yahushua
      would not be born in December because shepherds
      lived and watched the flock at night. It would
      quite cold in December in Judea as temperatures
      can drop to 40 degrees, it can snow and rain
      and no shepherd in his right mind would
      watch his precious possession ( flock) at night.
      Moreover, Mashiah more than likely was born
      during the feats of Tabernacles aka Sukkot.
      John 1:14 states;

      And the Word became flesh, and did TABERNACLE among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.

      There is a great explanation by rabbi in this video
      Although, I do not agree with some of his teachings,
      he provides an awesome biblical explanation for Messiah’s B-Day
      during the Feast of Tabernalcles.

        (Quote)

  39. Mac(the real one) says:

    Beginning and End stated “1. Date of Horus’ birth – With all due respect, Wikipedia, is a user-supplied resource, so it’s information will vary from time to time from those of academics. I will cite one.
    “The Egyptologist Louis B. Mikhail argued that the ritual associated with the god Osiris, performed during the Egyptian month Khoiak (mid-September to mid-October)” source
    Khoaik in November (source)

    My reply:”Here is another source outside of WIKI. I provided Wiki links cause it is has pretty valuable sources located within. However here is another to validate my claim thus proving you incorrect.

    http://www.tutorgigpedia.com/Koiak_es.html
    http://www.zeitun-eg.org/warraq.htm
    http://www.christian-egypt.com/CopticCalendar.htm

    So again you should retract your above statement about the month of “Koiak/Choiak” because your statement is obviously incorrect,thus proving my point. Also your source appears to be very vague. I cant find that he cited “Koiak” as the same time(Oct-Nov) as your source states. Nor was your source a Wikilink. If you can provide me with evidence that he stated this was the time of “Koiak”,please do so. So that we can know this isnt a false claim on your part. But whomever made this remark was incorrect and you cited incorrect information. But lets continue

    Also on July 15,2012 at 8:15pm you cited a wiki link. your statement>>”The oldest manuscripts are from over 600 years after Buddha’s death, are in fragments and have been in those dreaded “European hands” you say alter everything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandh%C4%81ran_Buddhist_Texts
    Guess the same rules(usage of Wiki links) dont apply when making your points perhaps?

    You stated “Furthermore, as stated in the article, even if Horus was born on December 25th, it’s meaningless and irrelevant, because that date does not appear in the Bible and is not the birthday of Jesus Christ. This argument fails on several levels.”

    My reply: But you said “Koiak was in the mont of (Oct-NOV). Is someone back pedaling? This statement also would appear to further validate my point or claim “The argument is that the attributes of Jesus are no more than the atributes of deities that predate him,(not there exact lifestyles) and the resemblence of all religions are based off the same principle. That principle is the cosmological universe(ie the Sun,planets,forces of nature,etc)”

    You stated:”While a dictionary can provide a definition of a word that is in a text, it is not the primary source. The primary source is the context of the text in question.”
    Are you stating word origin or the etymology of the word is not important?

    You cited a biblical passage: 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    In the passage you provided no where did it state she was a virgin,hence proving the point that this title “virgin” was obviously planted into western religious ideology EVIDENTLY during the 12-13th century which is when the origin of the word “Virgin” took on the meaning of “no sexual union”. This is widely documented in etymological sources. This would also mean that if your meaning of the text is true,then it would obviously have been changed(the text that is),since its original beginnings, to fit the preference of religious order in western civilization,which at the time would have been the only culture without a god or God who didnt have a virgin mother. You are using word play to your advantage witthout respect to history or word origin. If this text(NT) was written 2000 years more or less,then what was the meaning applied to “virgin” at the time of its construction? And then when did this change?How and Why?

    Oh and by the way here is an etymological link AGAIN>>http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=virgin
    origin of Virgo>>
    http://www.astrologyweekly.com/sun-signs/virgo-origin-representation.phphttp://allaboutvirgo.blogspot.com/2006/09/virgo-little-history-virgo-is-sixth.html
    A concept that existed WELL before Mary’s propsoed existence and or conception

    On July 15 2012 8:15 you cited totally diifferent scriptures that blatantly used the word “virgin/viginity in it which proved my point of the etymological origin of the word when it was used in the primary biblical form,OT which came before the NT.
    Here are your quotes:
    3) “Virgin” — Here are the rules for priests straight from Leviticus 21: “And he shall take a wife in her virginity. 14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.”
    Clearly the implication here is sexual, not referring to age.

    My reply was:”POINT-Clearly the implication here is sexual, not referring to age.” This does not disprove my sources which stated “virgin” as marriageagle woman,young woman! This text almost clearly shows the virgin to be unwedded or not of any husband,therefore marriageable as (“a widowed” or “divorce woman” could not be taken) because they have already been married! What reason would one have to not believe this? Again re-read the source as it provides passages from the very bible you are using validate reality,only its much more detailed>>>>>>http://www.the-goldenrule.name/Virgin_HEBREW.htm (its extremely clear)

    So I killed this issue with you months ago. You may want to go back and reread your statement in full. And it puzzles me how you first used the OT as your source in regards to “virgin” which is where it was stated in INK and can be said to match earlier etymological meaning,although its ultimate origin shows to be “Virgo”,a celestial meaning. But then you came back with a NT scripture which didnt use the word.

    You stated “Isis was not a virgin.” Not only did I provide Egyptian text and a credible source in my earlier presentation of Isis referring to hereself as “The great virgin” but the argument presented prior to this statement should prove your statement/s incorrect.

    You stated: “Additionally, in the Bible, Egypt and its pantheon of satanic deities, are constantly referred to as spiritual enemies of God and His people. Egypt is like the epitome of the sinful, satanic rebellious world and the occult.”
    Oh we will deal with this claim if I can find the time to break this in half. Will definitely try and find the time to do so. And are you still using biblical text to validate history. The bible if I an not mistaken is not a history book.

    You stated “So think this would be the basis for Christ’s life story is just illogical on its face.”
    You are starting to sound like a computer. But lets first get you to admit your claims(as proven in this presentation )are false interpretations at least and then we can contiue to the next batch.

      (Quote)

    • Mac- Once again you are focusing on minor points and missing the major one. You have sources that say Khoaik is in December. I have sources that vary from Sept-November. Ultimately it is irrelevant because the date December 25th is not in the Bible. So even if Khoaik fell on December 25th, it has no relevance to the Bible whatsoever because that is not the date of Christ’s birth.

      Regarding Wikipedia – I am not trying to discredit Wikipedia. This cite uses it regularly for the simple fact that is commonly known and clearly not a “Christian website.” My point was that Wikiepdia is not compiled by academics and experts. As a result in many instances of antiquity, you will find variance between a Wikipedia entry and an academic article or book. This does not mean Wikipedia is automatically wrong and the academic is right. It just means a difference in information should not be shocking.

      Virgin Birth – We have manuscripts of the Gospel of Luke that date to within a century of the death of Christ. And in that Gospel Mary clearly says she has not “known” a man, which, in context means, she has not had sexual relations in her life. So all of your points about 12-14th century interpolations of the meaning of the word “virgin” are again, irrelevant. The Biblical record speaks for itself. Mary was a virgin, in the sexual sense. She said and the Angel responded clearly explaining how she, as a virgin would be able to supernaturally conceive and give birth to the Messiah. So there is ambiguity here whatsoever as to her status: she had never had relations, including with her husband, before the birth of Christ Jesus.

      You are shocked that I am using the NT, but the NT is where we find the Virgin Mary. So why would that be so shocking? Again, if we want to get down to the meaning, why not look to the chapter that actually discusses the virgin in question? It seems to make sense. And again, the record is quite clear. By her own testimony, she was a sexual virgin. And it predates all your other conspiracy theories and hunches about Western Christians altering the Biblical text.

      And finally, you still have provided no evidence of Biblical authors plagiarizing Egyptian sources. Again, I understand your points, but at this point you are missing the bigger picture.

        (Quote)

  40. Mac(the real one) says:

    Oh and to further deaden this “virgin issue” how about commentary from Dr. Raymond E. Brown
    Corresponding Link below
    http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christian_Credibility.htm

    III. The Virginal Conception

    Brown cautions that “we should not underestimate the adverse pedagogical impact on the understanding of divine sonship if the virginal conception is denied.”[13] On the other hand, admits Brown, “The virginal conception under its creedal title of ‘virgin birth’ is not primarily a biological statement.”[14] He stresses that Christian writings about virginal conception intend to reveal spiritual insights rather that physical facts. Because record of the virginal conception appears only in tow Gospels, and there only in the infancy narratives (which Brown suspects are largely fictional), the Catholic theologian tactfully concludes that “biblical evidence leaves the question of the historicity of the virginal conception unresolved.”[15]

    Brown mentions the possibility that “early Christians” might have imported a mythology about virginal conception from “pagan or [other] world religions,”[16] but never intended that that mythology be taken literally. “Virginal conception was a well-known religious symbol for divine origins,” explains Brown, citing such stories in Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Greco-Roman and ancient Egyptian theologies.[17] He proposes that early Christians “used an imagery of virginal conception whose symbolic origins were forgotten as it was disseminated among various Christian communities and recorded by evangelists.”[18]

    Alternatively, Brown also considers the possibility that Christianity’s founders intended to create the impression that an actual virginal conception took place. Early Christians needed just such a myth, Brown notes, since Mary was widely known to have delivered Jesus too early: “Unfortunately, the historical alternative to the virginal conception has not been a conception in wedlock; it has been illegitimacy.”[19] Brown writes that:

    Some sophisticated Christians could live with the alternative of illegitimacy; they would see this as the ultimate stage in Jesus’ emptying himself and taking on the form of a servant, and would insist, quite rightly, that an irregular begetting involves no sin by Jesus himself. But illegitimacy would destroy the images of sanctity and purity with which Matthew and Luke surround Jesus’ origins and would negate the theology that Jesus came from the pious Anawim of Israel. For many less sophisticated believers, illegitimacy would be an offense that would challenge the plausibility of the Christian mystery.[20]

    In summary, Brown leans towards a less miraculous explanation of Jesus’ early birth.

      (Quote)

  41. Mac(the real one) says:

    Truth seeker you stated “Mac, you are all over the place with your astrology
    and Egyptian mythologies”
    My reply: I clearly showed that his,Beginning and End interpretaion of mythology as you all call it,was incorrect and thus proved he gave false imformation. It should be rightly assumed I have more knowledge of this topic than he and probably anyone else in the forum. So please take notes if at all possible. He has yet to prove his points of the claims he made regarding Horus or correclty Heru and Isis. Therefore it would rightly appear that he,Beginning and End,is” all over the place”. I gave hard evidence from primary and scholarly sources to prove my point thus,proving his source and information incorrect in regards to Egyptian literature on Isis being a “virgin” and Horus/Heru’s birthdate and followers of Heru. He has yet to show primary sources and valid works produced by those of scholarship. Until then,this is a dead issue.

    Futhermore….you stated “Indeed, original hebrew
    state in Isaiha 7:14 Almah( maiden, young woman,
    a woman of a child bearing age), however it was
    Translated into Greek as parthenos in Septuagint,
    which means precisely that A VIRGIN – a woman
    who has never yet had an intercourse. Strong’s
    Lexicon # 3933, Definition
    a virgin
    a marriageable maiden
    a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
    one’s marriageable daughter
    a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity
    one who has never had intercourse with women
    So, it is evident that Almah aludes the chastity
    of a childbearing young woman, which Septuagint
    only confirms is the case.”

    According to the only source you all seem to have,the bible,in the OT was not the word,for virgin, “almaha” and if so was it not at that time meaning of “maiden”,”marriageable woman” and as opposed to sexual intercourse? Do we not find the prophecy of a “virgin/maiden” conceiving a child in the OT,which is widely known to have been written in the “jewish” language and in a pre-Greco Era? How can one refute this. Even in the above quote,you basically proved my point along with your source. Besides agnos(chaste) parthnenos(virgin/maiden) would have been a better Greco word for describing a maiden with no sexual union as mention in 2 Corinthians 11:2 …lol and the Hebrews would have more or less likely used the term “Bethulah”,POSSIBLY but not definite to denote what you all are implying.
    it would have been “possibly” been “agnos/αγνός/” which means “chaste”,that is if using it in adjective form. Chaste is of course “no sexual union”,celibacy.spotless.again agnos in Greek. LINK>>
    http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=chaste+IN+GREEK&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4AURU_enUS500US501&q=chaste+IN+GREEK&gs_l=hp….0.0.3.562553………..0.drMqlWVh-HE

    However if “no sexual union” was implied in the OT in the “Jewish” language it would have appeared “bethulah” in the “jewish” framework,meaning no sexual union. However we dont find that in Isaiah’s prophecy in the hebrew language. We also find,as you obvously state the Greek translation “parthenos” which was converted by JEWISH scribes into a language the Greeks could indentify. This would mean that in converting the word “parthenos” from “maiden” that it would have obviously held the same meaning. This is not rocket science. PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING SOURCE IN ITS ENTIRELY as it validate my point with clear and precise detail>>>>>
    http://www.the-goldenrule.name/Virgin_HEBREW.htm

    TRUTH SEEKER stated: “Another thing I wanted out is that Yahushua
    would not be born in December because shepherds
    lived and watched the flock at night. It would
    quite cold in December in Judea as temperatures
    can drop to 40 degrees, it can snow and rain
    and no shepherd in his right mind would
    watch his precious possession ( flock) at night.”

    This above statement further validates my claim that as stated multiple times in presentations “I dont claim that there full lives in every single,accurate aspect was similiar but I do believe and am convinced through numerous amounts of study that one is no more than imported/exported or adopted ideologies of another (Ie Jesus consist of plagarized ideas of older deities such as Horus/Heru,Krishna,Buddha,Osiris/Asar,Mitras,etc)!” Obviously the very birthdate of Iesous/Ye-zues is interpolated with the Sun,obviously proving my above claim. This….is….not…rocket science/ Until anyone can disprove my claims with valid reliable sources that appeal to obvious human logic and or prove their claims with and in the same detailed fashion,I will not move to the next topic. Beginning and End has yet validate his claims on Horus and Isis unless he admits he gave false imformation and you both have not given any reliable sources for your claim outside of using the bible as a history book and etymological source. Epic failure might I add with all due respect. I will not make preentations to multiple people as well,as my post are thorough and covers definite ground. Plus Im aware Im on a site probably widely supported by individuals who will soon come out the wood works,therefore provoking me to render continuouis presentations. If at all possible I would like claims validated by Beginning and End and anyone who wants to add input can easily contact him and collab with all due respect. Keep in mind the burden of evidence,UNTIL further poregress is made in regards to the claims made by Beginning and End,falls on B and E to prove with a thorough presentation that his claims regarding Egyptian “mystery” is correct. It is imperative that we have these false claims obliferated thereby making it easier to present other existing claims supported by a wide body of evidenc. Again I say I cant go further until B and E admits that my evidence is sufficient and that his claims,clearly mentioned in his initial presentain are false or not sufficient enough. Also please read the text I posted by well known Catholic theologian Dr. Raymond Brown as he further validate my point in regards to the virgin birth being from a highly probably importation from “pre-christian” sources. If you have yet to read his commentary I can repost. Thanks! :)
    http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christian_Credibility.htm

      (Quote)

    • TheTruthSeeker says:

      Mac(the real one) said;

      ”Obviously the very birthdate of Iesous/Ye-zues is interpolated with the Sun,obviously proving my above claim. This….is….not…rocket science/ ” Ha? First of all, Mashiah’s name is NOT Ye-zues. His name is YAHSHUAH. Second of all, NOBODY knows YAHSHUAH’s precise Birth Date, not does it matter. Yahuwah did not put emphasis on His son’s name, nor EVER commanded to commemorate it. Thirdly, what has Sukkot to do with the Sun?! This is precisely what I mean when I said you are all over the place. You read ZERO scriptures and know absolutly NOTHING about TaNaKh or NT. How do I know? I tricked you with hebrew word ALMAH use in Isaiah 7:14 to see how you would respond and lo and behold after much research you have brought up BETHULAH into the picture. I just wanted to let you know that ALMAH aslo mean VIRGIN, a woman who had never had a sexual intercourse with a man. One of the characteristics of young unmarried woman ALMA is her VIRGINITY. There is not A SINGLE instance in TaNaKh where ALMA is used to refer to a non-virgin. An ancient ugaritic tablet was discovered which uses ALMA in synonymous parallelism to BETULAH. Dr. Cyrus Gordon, one of the world’s leading semitists, who is jewsih and does not believe in Yahshuah’s virgin birth for the reason of synonymous parallelis between ALMAH and BETULAH maintains ALMA in Isaiah 7:14 may be translated as A VIRGIN( Alma in Isaiah 7:14, Gordon, Cyrus H.; 21:106). Now, BETULAT or BETHULAH apart from VIRGIN can also mean “a young married woman who is not a virgin, but pure because she is married See Joel 1:8. Morover, B’TULTA IS used Isaiah 7:14 in Aramaic Peshita TaNaK. Why the writer of Isaiah 7:14 used ALMA instead of BETULAH is a conversation make possible for those who read TaNaKh and know the events that lead to Isaiah 7. Moreover, as I have already previously stated, hebrew translators used greek PARTHENOS for ALMA properly while producing Septuagint for the greek speaking jews. PARTHENOS mean a woman who had never had a sexual intercourse with a man. Notice, Septuagint was written at least few hundrad years before Mashiah’s Birdthay, which further indicate the 70-ies were well aware the young woman who’d give birth to promissed Messiah will be A VIRGIN. With that said, Miriam’s virginity has absoluterly nothing to do with Salvation process. ZERO relevancy.

      Also, I wanted to ask you, why do you insist Isis was a virgin? Ancient Egyptian mythology was not stressing she had an intact hymen, she was a virgin. Secondly, it is absolutely positively a well known fact, Isis used her brother-husband recreated penis to concive Horus. Please tell me how is it possible to ride a pony and remian a virgin?

      It is imperative to understand, my friend, that absolutely NOWHERE, neither in TaNaKh, nor in the NT did people worshipped any other DEITY, but Yahuwah, apart of course of Idolatry instances and absolutely NOWHERE, neither in TaNaKh, nor in NT did people worshipped Sun or the Moon or stars or whatever other heavenly element(planet) as Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonian, Romans, Greek ABSOLUTELY did. Ancient hebrews used the sun and the moon for signs, mo’ed, days and years.

      Are there certain characteristics of ancient cultures similar to biblical? Absofreakinglutly. Satan is counterfieting EVERYTHING that Yahuwah created, said and appointed. There should no surprise for any believer that christian traditions and customs that are rooted in paganism and are the counterfeit to Yahuwah appointed feasts; X-mas aka Saturnalia is a counterfeit of Feast of Tabernacles, Easter aka fertility goddess Ashtarte is a counterfeit of FirstFruits, which Yahshua has fulfilled, Sun Day worship is a counterfeit of Shabbat worship.
      Mithras, Horus, Dyonisus, Attis and so on are the counterfeit of Yahshua, pagan goddesses are the counterfeit of Miriam. Jesus, Iesous, Lord, God are the counterfeits of Yahuwah, Yahshuah, Adonai, Elohim( but even similar titles to Elohim and Adonai have been used by other cultures). Trinity aka Truine pagan gods worship is a counterfeit to monoteism and oneness of Abba and Mashiah, Immortality of the soul doctrine aka immortal souls of pagan deties is a counterfeit of death, hell, purgatory, heaven in the sky, rapture – all the false doctrines of christianity that satan influnced to create using ancient pagan religions. Hellenistic culture and its philospohy heavy influences on hebrew culture and christianity development are apparent. An avid reader and student of scritures will find the discrepancies and understand adversary deception. Those who continue in these lies have nothing to defend themsleves against people like you, who read too many gnostics, catholic and mystery religions articles and of course “biblical” scholars is aware of these similarities, however has no in-depth knowledge of Yahuwah’s Word. You never read the bible, Mac, and I am sorry I have to say this, You have no right to come here and impose your research, trying to convince people their faith worth nothing because of satan’s counterfeiting. Ya think mounts of your articles will shake the faith of those who know Yahuwah and experienced the goodness and wisdom of His inspired Word? NOT A CHANCE! And who the heck cares about some catholic pastors opinion? Mac, come on now!Sorry, man, for being so critical, but unless you read the bible in its entirety and understand something about it, it is fruitless to debate believers.

      Beginning and end, my to you advice, do not waste your time and energy on people like Mac. He is convinced in his heart and mind that what he has researched is truth. It is absolutely positively pointless to debate an atheist. And for those who question their Faith, I will say; YOU have never had IT to begin with. Study The Word, make yoursefl aproved before The Almighty Yah, so you can stand blameless before Him at the judgment day. Live a Set Apart( Holy) life. Abandon man made teachings completely. I cannot stress how important it is to READ THE WORD!!! Read 3-4 chapters every single day. Remember what Mashuah said ‘the road is narrow and FEW WILL FIND IT.”

        (Quote)

  42. Mac(the real one) says:

    Truth seeker stated “You read ZERO scriptures and know absolutly NOTHING about TaNaKh or NT. How do I know? I tricked you with hebrew word ALMAH use in Isaiah 7:14 to see how you would respond and lo and behold after much research you have brought up BETHULAH into the picture. I just wanted to let you know that ALMAH aslo mean VIRGIN, a woman who had never had a sexual intercourse with a man.”
    My reply: No you realized you validated my point and you are now back pedaling.
    Your very phrase “I tricked you ” is the very reason Im addressing this site and further shows your willingness to be deceitful with all due respect.

    Truth seeker stated or should I say copy and pasted “An ancient ugaritic tablet was discovered which uses ALMA in synonymous parallelism to BETULAH. Dr. Cyrus Gordon, one of the world’s leading semitists, who is jewsih and does not believe in Yahshuah’s virgin birth for the reason of synonymous parallelis between ALMAH and BETULAH maintains ALMA in Isaiah 7:14 may be translated as A VIRGIN( Alma in Isaiah 7:14, Gordon, Cyrus H.; 21:106″
    My reply: You copied this from the following link without giving the reference>>http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/0102/010218_d.html
    This a nono in the art of debating. Also supply your sources otherwise one has no choice but to point out plagarism,when noted, thus noting an incompetent opponent.

    Secondly you didnt read nor address my reference source which detailed the meaning of Almaha/almah
    Here is a simpler link since you refuse to read the other>>
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah which states>>>
    The masculine equivalent of almah is elem (“עלם”) meaning “youth” or “young man of the age of puberty”.[3] Feminizing these terms would result in “young woman” or “young woman of the age of puberty”. Gesenius defines the word as a “girl of marriageable age”. In modern Hebrew almah means a young woman or girl, a young or unmarried woman.[4]
    This is the manner in which you should have quoted your content above with all due respect.

    Truthseeker stated “You have no right to come here and impose your research, trying to convince people their faith worth nothing because of satan’s counterfeiting. Ya think mounts of your articles will shake the faith of those who know Yahuwah and experienced the goodness and wisdom of His inspired Word?”

    You broke another rule in the art of presenting information to opposing individuals. Never show emotion…This is where commentary starts to show it stems from irrational thinking and not a logical mindset.
    But you are actually correct here. I dont want to be the reason for such a thing,as people losing faith in a positive word. I dont argue against the word stated to be preached by Yeshua/Yezeus or which ever term you like to use. Therefore I concede from the back and forth. However if anyone is interested,you know how to reach me. But on the topic at hand,the information presented is just the TIP of the iceberg,I assure you.

      (Quote)

    • TruthSeeker says:

      Mac, you are correct. I should have provided a link
      to the webpage. For that I do apologize that. It was
      dishonest move on my part. However, let me tell you
      This; the evidence I have provided would be efficient enough
      to understand Isaiah spoke of a young woman who
      never knew a man sexually. Septuagint supports that
      as well with the Greek for A VIRGIN parthenos. And the
      fact, that it was written 200 or so years before the birth
      of Yahshua is a good indication Hebrew translators KNEW
      it would a virgin.

      As for your zeal for comparative ancient mythology and
      astrology – I applaud you, however, it is rather intellectually
      dishonest for you to attack Christianity, you know
      Very little about. Using masses of websites, articles and not knowing
      The Word would be sort if like for a Christian attacking Islam without
      investigating what is written in Koran. Reading The Word would
      change your perspective on your whole research, trust me. I will take time
      and look at your research material. I have already done plenty,
      Perhaps not as extensively as you did, but I get easily bored with them,
      Because of the very little attention they pay to the actual
      TaNaKh and NT.

      And I do want to apologize for sounding hursh and disrespectful.
      That wasn’t nice of me.

        (Quote)

    • Prynhawn da/Good afternoon to all
      To Mac, I would say that he is only half right as scholars are divided on this issue of virgin or maiden.
      One has to remember that the four gospels, were written by the hand of man, and man is fallible, however, on the virgin controversy (Isaiah 7:14) the Septuagint (however, the name Septuagint did not appear till 2nd century CE), is invariably mentioned, but, before the late 2nd or early 3rd century in the common era, the Septuagint was basically known as the Torah. The original Hebrew/Aramaic word in use was ha-almah, young woman, etc. If the Jewish scribe(s) wanted virgin, I am sure they would have emphasised the word bethulah. Even the Greek word parthenos, which is read as meaning virgin, was used by the Greek scholar Homer, who refer to non-married and non-virgin women as parthenos.[Iliad 2.514; Aristophanes, Nubes 530] In addition, Homer’s work was used as the standard Greek, and anyone who came after Homer would of known of it versatile usage by the great scholar of ancient Greece. Scholars are divided on this issue, owing to the interpolations and forgeries used by the ancient zealots Christians to benefit there religion. They have irreversibly tainted its history, its words, and that of the Bible and its authenticity.

      The best.
      Jero Jones Mab Cymru

        (Quote)

      • Hi Jero,

        Thank you for your comment. However, with all due respect, it is incredibly flawed. You arbitrarily select Homer as the standard for use of the Greek language. I have to say I am quite surprised, because by any basic academic research, the “writings of Homer” are some of the most suspect writings of all of antiquity. Historians do not even know when Homer lived and place it anywhere from 1200-800BC (with most falling in the 1200 BC camp because it would make him a contemporary in the times of the Trojan war). Additionally Homer did not write his works. He was said to be a poet and orator who told stories he had heard from oral tradition, that were later passed down by oral tradition (obviously leaving lots of room for changes, creative license, etc). Not to mention that Homer most likely lived before the Greek Alphabet was even invented (ca 800 BC).

        And the oldest manuscript FRAGMENT of Homer’s writings are from the first century BC, putting them 700-1000 years after his death. when it comes to actual complete manuscripts of his writings, the oldest copy of the Illiad is from the 10th century AD and the oldest copy of the Odyssey is from the 11th century AD. And the they post-date the Septuagint. And there are numerous textual variants from the older fragments.

        And yet despite all of this, you are citing Homer’s text for accuracy in the use of Greek? We have no idea if the writings we have today that are attributed to Homer were ever written by him, and we do not even know for certain if he existed. Not to mention that historians agree that Hipparchus rewrote Homer’s poems in the 8th century BC. This is called the Homeric Question in antiquities research.

        So “the writings of Homer” are not conclusive in any way when it comes to establishing standards for Greek grammar. There is no consensus on what was written, who wrote it, or when it was written. So frankly, its shocking that you would accuse the Christian church of “interpolations” in the Bible when there is no evidence of this taking place but then cite Homer as some type of standard when it is by far one of the shoddiest pieces of writing in history when it comes to its authenticity. You have undermined your own argument.

        Whereas the Bible’s use of almah and parthenos is supported by the actual context of the story of the birth of Jesus Christ:

        ” And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus….34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.” – Luke 1:28-35.

        In any work of literature, the context of the story is the first source of a definition of a word. So in this case we do not have to guess or debate if “virgin” means an unmarried woman or a woman who has never had intimate relations. The text makes it abundantly clear that Mary was a virgin in the sexual sense.

        I know I am interjecting in a discussion you were having, but given the nature of the claims you were making, I felt compelled to interject with some historical facts on these matters. As will be shown time and time again, the Bible is the most reliable, internally consistent and thorough of all documents from antiquity. There is absolutely no comparison when it comes to the authenticity of the New testament to the writings of the person/people called “Homer.”

          (Quote)

  43. Mac(the real one) says:

    @truthseeker and everyone
    And with that said,i respectfully concede. Thanks for the intellectual stimulation and plethra of extra info. I apologize if I offended anyone or caused question in the positive word of God. This was not the intention. Goodbye everyone. शान्तिः(peace)

      (Quote)

    • Just An Educated Guy says:

      @ Mac (the real one) and Dr. O:

      Thank you for your extremely insightful arguments. I have studied Theology, Mythology and History for almost my entire life. The arguments you have brought forth on this page are well written, insightful and well-researched; unfortunately the opposing opinions are not.

      Mac, you were asked repeatedly to provide source material for your claims and you did in spades. One thing I have come to understand about religions/ belief/ faith is that people are absolutely terrified to see any other viewpoint than what is ingrained into their psyche. Whether this is environmental, “divine inspiration” or educational is irrelevant to them. Meaning: no matter what proof you present it will always be written off as a “lack of faith”…which is very unfortunate.

      Truth is a very slippery slope when it comes in conflict with belief. Heck, scientists were killed in the Dark Ages for believing the Earth was a sphere, but I digress. As I painstakingly researched innumerable religions all around the world the conclusions are so obvious that any person who had no idea of religion, who were not indoctrinated at a young age, would see these stories as parables and nothing more; with no more historical significance than Aesop’s Fables and Grimm’s Fairy Tales. Rational, free-thinking people will always be condemned by people of “faith” as “evil” because the alternative for them is too terrifying to even contemplate. One of the scariest experiences you can live through is the realization that everything you once believed is false. I know, I went through it as I educated myself and learned to distinguish fact from fiction.

      Think about one thing for believers and none believers alike: if you grew up in a completely secular environment, with reality and your senses being your only input for information about the world, would you believe in a divine creator or would you simply accept the reality of what your senses imbibed, so to speak? Could you honestly say that only one of two outcomes would be possible:

      1) You would see the forces of nature as beyond your understanding and place higher, anthropomorphic view on these events (i.e. the sun, wind, lightning, the moon, snow, etc.) because you have no intrinsic knowledge of how these events work.

      Or:

      2) You would live and survive in the world without any system of “beliefs” because it is not imperative to your survival.

      While I understand that this is a generalization and microcosm of an event I know the outcome is the truth: the idea of a Creator would not enter your brain in the sense of a Monotheistic or Polytheistic Religion that has today. It would be a by-product of your own lack of knowledge on the mechanics of the universe. This is neither good, nor evil, it simply IS.

      I will not cite research, websites, books, biblical text or any reference because it will be refuted based on OPINION, not FACT, by people of faith. Once again, that is unfortunate on a scale that literally frightens me more than any “vengeful deity” ever could. We, as humans, have a sense of “self” which drives us to understanding our origins in a meaningful way.

      With that being said, I truly do understand the nature of any person needing a higher being guiding their life, needing guidance on what is “right or wrong” rather than letting your conscience tell you (and no that isn’t the Holy Spirit inside of me). I feel privileged to live a life free of constraints based on belonging to a religion. My decisions are my own, my mistakes are my mistakes, my personal tragedies are mine to cope with and overcome with friends and family by my side, my successes are, you guessed it, my own, also. That is the true gift of knowledge, but also the burden; as the more you know and understand, the more weighs on your mind and the more complex your decisions become. I would not give up that burden for anything, even an “indulgence” to guarantee my entry into heaven.

      Now, suppose that I am wrong. Suppose that there is One True God and Jesus was his only Begotten Son. Suppose that the Bible is the literal interpretation of world events. Suppose that there is a Devil (Satan, Lucifer, The Adversary (yes, I understand that is the translation of Satan), Old Scratch, Beelzebub, etc.) and that Hell is a real place with agonizing torments for sinners. Let’s just suppose this for a minute.

      Now, if God is Omniscient, Omnipresent and Omnipotent there is absolutely nothing that you could get past Him, right? So, if I live a good life, let my conscience guide me through my mistakes and “sins” and take personal responsibility for hurting or helping others, am I really going to be denied passage into Heaven because I did not “put Jesus into my heart”? If I am to be denied entry into this supposed Paradise, what does that say for a perfect being? Flawed Human Beings overcome jealousy and can forgive regardless of beliefs, but a perfect being cannot? That seems to be anachronistic to what a Perfect Being is, does it not? I know, I know, God works in mysterious ways and they are beyond us…yes, I have heard all of the arguments and not one of them involves logic.

      I truly wish the practitioners of the multiple (?!) Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan… heck even the Zoroastrian sects all of the best in the world for needing to believe in divinity without rather than divinity within. I really do “get it”, the need for that anchor of belief.

      Once again, to Mac and Dr. O, thank you for the enlivening read tonight and your ability to maintain composure whilst being attacked for being “non-believers”. The beauty of human nature, and its’ curse, is that knowledge is always sought by the enlightened, but it takes quite a while for the reality to set into the masses. Patience. Composure. Do not give up that quest for knowledge. It is what promotes societal, intellectual and emotional growth. Do not be too hard on the believers, for they no not what they have done.

      Thank you for your time.

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  44. Sorry i was busy with my business , until i stumbled on this piece of information about -”The Bible”

    1.With my argument said above , i want to add @beginningandend that considering biblical words to be factual is yet another sin that was not added in the 10 commandments.

    2.Do not spread false beliefs , remember what goes around comes around.

    3.If you believe and if its factual you tell someone , if not try to keep it to oneself . This wastes the intellects time in recorrecting the diturbed minds of the mass .

    4.You may discard this stating this is not something to do with Jesus being comapared to Mithra or Buddha or Krishna , but this will give insight of how Bible is wrong in all terms and why Bible should not be picked up as a proof or evidence.

    5. All enlightened beings are different , incarantions of these pure souls happen to liberate and assist human liberation from suffering , arguments made on them are simply a small minded thought.

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  45. I love you wackjobs that believe in this crap. Unless you have first hand knowledge of events, it is rumor or stories. No two eyes see an event the same way. There is a better chance of your god being a little green man than your so-called heavenly being.

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  46. Christ becomes termed as Pseudo Christ when religions are mixed to the term Syncretism but in the truth does differenciate between the Christ & Christ like to the word Pseudo Christ., for every truth there is the False or Duplicate.to determine the truth from the untruth ,in terms of Life & Death.

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  47. To know the difference between Christ & the Pseudo Christ is to know the difference between love & hate respectively where Christ’s love is in the chastising , the Pseudo Christ’s hate is in the appeasings, where the former corrects the latter spoils , so who is to life eternal ?

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  48. a guy coming on here to explain why jesus isn’t a copy cat. So then, where is the evidence of matthew, mark, luke or john actually writing the first four books of the New Testament? So far there is none. Its just attributed to them, wich as it turns out makes everything you say look foolish.

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    • Hi Richard,

      Where is the evidence that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did not write the first four books of the New Testament??

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      • Richard says:

        Answering a question with a question is not an answer. Since you are so sure of your religion the burden of proof lays with you. not me, basing your entire proof on the gospels is rubbish. you can’t even substantiate why it is whatever you believe, then how can you claim jesus was (fill in the blank)
        You cant. next what you will try to tell me is your faith is all the proof you need, and while that might be true for you you cannot claim it as the “truth” .

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        • Richard,

          With all due respect, you have me confused. You say I based my “entire proof on the gospels.” But I’m not. I am going to secular, non-Christian sources to demonstrate the descriptions of Horus, Mithras, Krisha and Dionysus and that they do not match with the Biblical accounts of the life of Jesus at all. You are not challenging any points from the article, so I don’t really follow.

          If you are just making a general objection to the authorship of the Gospels then I thought you would have some evidence to support it. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all wrote their names on their books and there are thousands of manuscirpt copies from antiquity with their names on it, that still exist today. That’s usually the first good piece of evidence as to authorship. Additionally, you can look at writings of first or second century Christians like Polycarp or Iraenaeus who quote the Gospels and attribute authorship to those same 4 men.

          Again, if I am missing the question you’re asking, I apologize, but it was not really clear to me.

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        • http://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom
          You are correct the evidence is controversial

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      • Prynhawn da/ Good afternoon all
        I would like to answer you on this topic, concerning the authorship of the gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke (synoptic gospels) and John. The consensus by New Testament scholars and biblical historians is that the authors of these gospels where anonymous Greek scholars, and that the apostolic names were later additions in the late 2nd or early 3rd century. The oldest extant gospel or fragment, is the papyrus P52, or John fragment, which is the size of a credit card, dated c. mid 2nd century. The disciples had long been dead, one also has to remember that the likes of Simon (Peter) and his brother Andrew, were said to be common fisherman and were illiterate, as were the majority of the said disciples/apostles. The same can be said that about the illiteracy of Judaea, with about 90% of its population not knowing how to read and write, at the time in question. After the original Hebrew/Aramaic gospels (probably gnostic), Greek became the textual norm in early Christianity, owing to Greek being the lingua franca of the Grecian world, Eastern Mediterranean, Egypt, and north Africa.
        The very best

        Jero Jones Mab Cymru

          (Quote)

        • Hi Jero,

          Please show me the source that says the consensus that the authors were later added in the 2nd or 3rd centuries? We have the writings of the first and second church fathers that directly refute that. Polycarp ( a disciple of the Apostle John) and Justin martyr not only confirm the authorship of the Gospels, they quote them extensively in their own writings (manuscripts which are extant today).

          Furthermore, the Gospel authors were not “herdsmen.” Matthew was a tax collector, Luke was a phsyician and historian. Mark was a from well off family in Jerusalem (his parent’s house was often a meeting place for the entire early church in the city). And while we do not know John’s occupation, we know from several books that he was literate. The Apostle Paul, who wrote the remainder of the New testament was a Pharisee and Old Testament scholar and quite literate.

          As for Greek language, the Jews living in first century Judea spoke Greek and Aramaic. This is why the Septuagint was quoted over 90% of the time in the New Testament. As for 90% of the population being illiterate, I am not sure where you got that statistic from.

          If you have evidence to provide on these claims, I’d be glad to check it out though. And again, this all of course is far more reliable than the “writings of Homer.” -B&E

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  49. How does it make you look foolish? Simple. If you can substantiate with accuracy how/when/why whatever it is you believe, (religion) then how in the world are you going tosay with any confidence that all the jesus mumbo jumbo is the absolute truth? And personal testimony, and faith are not answers. anyone from a (dif) religious perspective can calim this. and please no, well why would people die for jesus then? thats also simple. people are stupid and die for thier beliefs all the time

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  50. How can one give any Guarentee about his next hour, other than by his Faith in the short & in the long run ? & on this there arises what is called Belief which comes about in two ways True or False. For eg. America formed by its Forefathers & with the so called Puritians, most of them had Deists beliefs which belief is to believe in god, a god who is not involved with his creations which is called ‘Platoism”(which is as good to the word Atheist) but then contradicts scriptures that state- for not a bird falls without the knowledge of God & to Jesus Himself revealing the Father & contrary to this is seen the beliefs of the American puritans to a society that has become , a fatherless and broken one swimming into every wickedness under the Sun, rudderless in the Moral stands, seen today & if seeing is not believing then it is Hypocrisy., & thus is a clear indication that its faith is wrong or false to its very beginning. On this is the Biblical prophecy & if so much can be seen which is the Evidence, then its future that is written can also be believed, including the ways of the Pseudo christs.

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  51. Honestly after reading most of the comments I think as much as one person would like to be RIGHT , the truth is that all religious scripts were written by man , and we all know that man is flawed and will only do things to benefit he’s own agenda, so unless anyone here has a script that has been written by the divine himself/herself I think we should respect the religions that we each follow , one should not try to debunk or put down other religions in order to make one feel right or vindicate their religion , by doing so u become worst than those who criticize and show hatred to other religions that don’t agree with their belief system , I’m hindu I believe in krishna but I don’t feel the need to hate on other religions just to make me feel justified for worshiping him. Hope I haven’t offended anyone

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    • Hi Saichen,

      Thanks for your comments. I wanted to respond to one comment you made:

      “the truth is that all religious scripts were written by man ,”

      The writers of the Bible claimed to write Scripture based on direct inspiration and revelation from God. In other words, it was a supernatural process. Are you saying that they are lying?

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  52. The wages of sin is death, for seeing is believing & death is no hope for man, but to the hope came the Christ prophesied of old called the Messiah, thus the proof of Christianity is in the Resurrection of Jesus, which is become the hope for man , for Jesus or Yeshua means salvation, & to this did he say ‘I am the way, truth & life to The Father, the only way because he is the only one who has ever been bodily Resurrected, for he who had no sin, that could not hold him & to this is the Bible which is not just a book of stories but the Book of witness unto Him, come through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to that Hope- the salvation which comes by the Faith in Him, to his life death & resurrection, for by His resurrection can we be resurrected. All of this is brought about by God HIMSELF in His Mercy. Now to understand as to what is this Faith that is required, is to look at the old testament to the patriarch Abraham that humble man raised by God as blessing unto all the generations for his Faith. It is that Faith which is required to come into the Christ. Now to know Jesus Christ, is the Lord from heaven born as Man off a Woman, A virgin, according to the law, to also know that God by Himself has no image, to the first commandments unto Mosses, unto the “Arc of the Covenant” & Christ who is the only begotten Son, is His express Image & Man being created in that Image, to the creation of Adam & out of Adam was made Eve & from them comes mankind which is to say Mankind comes directly under Him, He who is to come in the glory which is His everlasting state, to some thing like St. John, his beloved Apostle, standing before him fell as dead, mentioned in Revelations Ch.1, as the Judge of all mankind, to the very reason as to why he The Son of God came down born as the Son of Man for the sake of mankind. There is no way anyone can know God other than through Him & that is why He said “I am the way, truth & life” to the Father & as is written, before the foundations were laid God chose each one in His Christ. This is the Truth of Christ & Christianity to the redemption & salvation, for the fallen man, unto God in the eternal. Again to the words of Jesus “Before me were thiefs & Robbers–” meaning going up to God other than through Him, he who makes us spotless presenting us before the Father & as is said standing before God in our fullself, body & Soul as created originally, other than being spotless, would be most unwanted & horrible. Which is to say there are other ways other than through Christ, professed by people like Oprah Winfreys, but then the consequences will be as mentioned . God is Pure & Holy, which makes one standing before Him be likewise, not to be mocked at.

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  53. I don’t know about other pagan gods, but i knew well about krishna…

    In India, nobody believes that krishna is crucified… To make parallels between jesus and krishna, Zeitgeists lied… everyone in india will laugh if you say that krishna is crucified… merciless liars…

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  54. Satan called the Devil, that great Dragon or Serpent, tempter, deceiver & restrainer , the king of Occultism to the Prophesied Sorcery, by which he deceives the whole world, he who is & has been a thief, liar & murderer from the beginnings who comes in various forms & ways even as an Angel of light. Where in the Truth God is not to be worshiped in any form or Image anywhere, the adversary says worship of idols is worship of me . This makes him to be a garbage can too. As stated in acts “They took the tabernacle of Moloch (Human sacrifices & Temple Prostitutions- sounds famaliar)which is all part of that Ancient Egyptian beliefs today in its various forms or avatars across the world, which is but to understand the great flood at the time of Noe, Destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah, the Judgement of the Pharaoh, even unto his gods, into the stated final Judgements to come to the Prophesy., like at the time of Noe, they rejoiced in falseness & sin when the flood came & took all of them away. To all this is every reason to beware of the false or Pseudo Christs, there is one, even one who moves about as the christ.

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  55. we’re free creatures, we should unite and create a magnificent world based on our reason, tecknology ,justice, cooperation and equality for everyone, it doesn’t matter if jesus existed or not, all jesus supposedly said were logical things, we don’t need anybody to tell us that we need to love ourselves it’s all logical, we should teach our children that we don’t know if we either have a soul or not, because we don’t know, it hasnt been proved, we shouldn’t either tell them that somebody will come to rescue us when we die because we don’t know, we should theach ‘em all kind of possibilities, we’re on our own, god won’t come to solve our problems, all religions claim they’re the ultimate truth, and olny them will be saved, and the others will be condemned, religions makes us hate ourselves, we should open our minds and focus in what’s really important here on earth, if we have a soul well, we’ll know it when we’ll die, if god is really our father and creator, then he/she/it wont let any of us suffer or die, imagine having a son, you don’t want that your son suffers, or be condemned even if he does bad things, you’ll defend your son no matter what, because it’s your blood, you saw him growing, you love him etc. it’s stupid and surrealistic to think that you will only be saved and the other persons of other religions or that have no creeds will be condemned even if they have a healthy and good exemplar way of living. would you do that to your son?

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  56. To know a little more to this Biblical Mark of the beast, it is required to understand the first Disobedience to taking of the forbidden tree to the knowledge of good & evil, except that today good is termed as evil & evil as good, thus making today’s idealisms like twigs , to say swimming through the sea of good & evil cannot really identify the good from the evil & back to Genesis where Cain eventually slew his brother & to protect Cain to his life, God in his mercy put the Mark of Cain to whosoever attacks Cain, vengeance will be taken seven fold & to this when Cain was accidently shot at with an arrow by blind Lemach, a generation of Cain, thinking it to be a wild animal(quiet similar to the death of Hindu, Krisn’a) was shocked at what he did & Exclaimed ” If Cain be avenged seven times then Lemach 77 times’ & it was against this that Jesus stated in the sermon on the Mount “Forgive not seven but 77.”. This is all but to know to them who live by the Curse spiritually to the line of Cain & them who live by the blessing, spiritually to the line of Abel/Seth/Abraham. Jesus was sent through the line of the Blessing in order to save to Turn them from the Mark of Cain within the appointed time, when it becomes the Mark of the Beast to eternal condemnation, even though are them in the mixtures today unto Mankind, can in a way be signified for eg. by the Hindu Brahmin priest sacrificial markings on the heads & hands( to the mark of Cain), in the O.T. signifying the priests of Baal, all but to the ancient beliefs of Egypt , in the texts called as ‘Babylon”. Truth indeed hurts, cannot be changed only hidden & whoever says Christ does not matter denies the Truth, is but blind or Ignorant to the Scriptures & the happenings around, the truth to life or death in the eternal.

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  57. you think that by having in your thoughts the word jesus is the saviour at the end you will be only saved, well I think you’re the ignorant, all jesus said are things that anyone with a logical mind would say, if a human being like him existed well I admire him and I also like him cause if everyone would be like him, we’d live in a better world, we should start behaving like him, why don’t you give up all your material possessions to the pòor if you’re really a christian?,if God (our kind and wise creator is really there he?she? it’d be wise and kind enough to save everyone who’s behaved and acted in harmony with nature and love to his/her siblings, wow i’ll condemn you because you didnt have the word jesus in your head, well you were a good person but rules are rules, how pathetic…don’t judge who will or won’t be saved, you might have a surprise,he,he, I just wish a world where everyone would start seeing each other as brother and sister, and start really taking care of our world, so when jusus comes he’ll have a surprise, we’re already in paradise, and you’re welcome to stay,

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  58. The greatest religious teachers have always known that religious works are allegories. There is no patriarch in the sky who determines everything. Instead, there is a divine energy from which we all come forth. God is within us, so is heaven and hell. If we do good, if we are kind, generous and just, we act in accordance with this divine force. If we are selfish, gratuitously cruel and petty, we act in accordance with demons, with evil. Our internal landscapes are not a fantasy, they are the only long-lasting truth.

    If worshiping a personal god makes one a better person, I’m for it. If it makes a person more narrow-minded and self-righteous, I’m against it. For one person, following religious law leads to God. For another, it makes them hate God. Personally, I respond badly to laws, human or divine, but I do know people who are deeply good while following a more conventional path.

    One can find God within us by being deeply devoted to Jesus. Or by following the teachings of countless Sufis. Or by meditating in the Zen tradition. Or, indeed, by being an atheist with a strong love of nature or sense of justice. Different kinds of souls respond to different symbols. That’s why there are different paths.

    And this is not something that a person needs to be taught. We all know it if we are honest to ourselves.

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  59. Let none be deceived for Paganism & Atheism are but two sides of the same coin to the Plagiarism. Where a grieving heart is to solace, a restless one is to condemnation. “Amen” was the Word, is the Word & will be the Word.

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    • Griffo:
      Sorry, Beginning and End, I have to agree with Dr O.

      Your story is too one sided, that’s your flaw. And that is also typical of a religious fenatic. maybey if you balance it out a little it would be great.

      No. The bird is the word.

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  60. Satan who is a Liar, Murderer & a thief from the beginning does reflect the myth of the hindu Kris’na said to have had 20 thousand wives most of whom were stolen(thief), & their husbands killed(murderer), claiming them to be Evil(lies). again to the Myth of one of him coming in the form of ‘Avatars” thus can be identified to the “Abomination of Desolation” the final sign that is set to take place Prophesied by Daniel & confirmed by Jesus Himself, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy, before the great & terrible day of the Lord, all but to identify that old testament one of which name was to Baal to Balan, his modern name to the truth of the above topic.To also know that strange god, a god of forces stated by Daniel can be identified to the Monkey faced god of hinduism. Truth is said to be stranger than fiction but to that, mistake not Biblical Prophecy with words like fanatism., for truth cannot be hidden for long but be revealed in the brightness of His coming, again to the Prophecy.

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  61. fern:
    we’re free creatures, we should unite and create a magnificent world based on our reason, tecknology ,justice, cooperation and equality for everyone, it doesn’t matter if jesus existed or not, all jesus supposedlysaid were logical things, we don’t need anybody to tell us that we need to love ourselves it’s all logical, we should teach our children that we don’t know if we either have a soul or not, because we don’t know, it hasnt been proved, we shouldn’t either tell them that somebody will come to rescue us when we die because we don’t know, we should theach ‘em all kind of possibilities, we’re on our own, god won’t come to solve our problems, all religions claim they’re the ultimate truth, and olny them will be saved, and the others will be condemned, religions makes us hate ourselves, we should open our minds and focus in what’s really important here on earth, if we have a soul well, we’ll know it when we’ll die, if god is really our father and creator, then he/she/it wont let any of us suffer or die, imagine having a son, you don’t want that your son suffers, or be condemned even if he does bad things, you’ll defend your son no matter what, because it’s your blood, you saw him growing, you love him etc. it’s stupid and surrealistic to think that you will only be saved and the other persons of other religions or that have no creeds will be condemned even if they have a healthy and good exemplar way of living.would you do that to your son?

    Fern I would like to congratulate you. You’ve made more sense than anybody else.
    Some people find it easy to believe in a creator and others just cannot. I am the latter. Some people need religion to explain why we are here and to justify their existence, others just don’t.
    I respect people’s right to believe in whatever they wish but, beginning and end, the burden of proof lies with you my friend. It is not the job of science to disprove religion but to show us the truth based on all the evidence we have. The beauty of science is it is ever changing and evolving, today’s theory can be tomorrows fact or be debunked altogether. Religion doesn’t work like this, your book doesn’t change, therefore you’re stuck with what you have. I know which I prefer.
    However, if God were to reveal himself to the world tomorrow in a capacity that leaves no doubt then I would be a believer, because I would have proof.
    If it were finally proved tomorrow that Jesus didn’t exist or that he were a mortal man, I’m talking unequivocal evidence that you cannot refute, would you stop believing in your faith???
    I’d appreciate honest answers.
    Thanks

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    • Hi Andy,

      Thanks for your comment. I am actually going to work backwards through them and address some of your points:

      1) Proving Jesus did not exist – Since you appear to be a man of science, I assume you know that saying “what if we prove Jesus did not exist” is an argumetum ad igrnorantum. The lack of evidence of P does not disprove P. Furthermore, what we can establish logically is that it is impossible to say “God does not exist.” By any objective, empircal measure we have knowledge of about 1/1000th% of the universe. That’s how vast it is. So given that fact, there is no possible way you can God does not exist because you have no data on the entire universe. So what you really mean to say is: “in my brief time living on Earth with barely an empirical sliver of knowledge about the universe, I have not encountered any evidence of God’s existence”, which would make you an agnostic, not an atheist. If you are being true to science as you profess.

      2) It’s my burden to prove God – It’s actually not my burden. For one the topic of this article was not proving God’s existence. It was proving that the Gospel accounts were not stolen from pagan mythology. But on the topic of God’s existence, I still have no burden because I do not assert that I believe in God based on empirical proof. I believe in God based on faith. This is stated in virtually every article on this website. So I never presume to have empirical evidence of God’s existence. I am faith-based believer.

      And you too, in addition to being agnostic are also a faith-based believer. Science has no answer whatsoever for the origin of matter. So you have to formulate an answer based on popular opinion or your own ideas and just put faith that is right and there really is no God who created matter ex nihilo. And that would be faith-based belief.

      3) Fern’s Position – Fern said the following:

      if god is really our father and creator, then he/she/it wont let any of us suffer or die, imagine having a son, you don’t want that your son suffers, or be condemned even if he does bad things, you’ll defend your son no matter what, because it’s your blood, you saw him growing, you love him etc. it’s stupid and surrealistic to think that you will only be saved and the other persons of other religions or that have no creeds will be condemned even if they have a healthy and good exemplar way of living.would you do that to your son?

      You praised this as the most enlightened comment in this thread. I would submit that Fern’s argument is lacking. Why? Because like most arguments against the Bible, it leaves out human sin. Sin is a violation of God’s law and rebellion. So to apply it to Fern’s example, why it may seem logical that a loving dad would “defend his son no matter what”, but what if that son, upon turning 21, spits in your face, curses you, tells you he has no father and wishes you were dead and says he never wants to see you again? Would you then force this son to live with you? Would you lock him in his bedroom and make him spend time with you? Rather than being loving, people would think you were insane. Your son has free will and authority over himself to leave your presence and if he chooses to, he will. This is what humanity has done to God. The problem is not a lack of God’s love – the problem is that sinful humanity is telling God “I don’t want you. I don’t want to be in your presence and I absolutely despite everything about you. Specifically your thought that you are an authority over me.” And in the face of this, you then expect God to make you stay with Him?

      And with regards to sin, I challenge if any Dad would defend his son if they raped and murdered a small child. They may love them still, but defend them? Would that Dad seem remotely rational if he said “my son shouldn’t be punished for this. Just let him come home and carry on with his life because I love him so much.”??? No one would take that Dad seriously nor think they are being a “great parent.” The son in this hypothetical clearly deserves punishment for his crime and a father’s love does not subsume that. Well guess what? All of us, this author included, have an incredibly long “rap sheet” with God and in the face of God’s offer of free forgiveness and restoration, rather than take the time to even understand and know God and consider it, you are instead rejecting the Bible on face and arguing against the same God you don’t believe in on Christian websites.

      We all make our choices. You said if God proved Himself to you tomorrow, you’d be a believer. So you would worship him? You’d read the Bible with an open heart and mind, pray, share the Gospel and try to find a good church? Well if that is the case, then listen to what God says? He reveals Himself through the Bible. He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Scripture says: “Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.” Romans 10:13 says: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” If you are ready to start admitting that you are not right with God and consider His offer of reconciliation, He will reveal Himself to you. I hope and pray you do.

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  62. Beginning and end
    Thank you for your reply.
    I don’t claim to know nearly as much as you about religion or the bible but I will attempt a rebuttal all the same. 

    You said ‘The lack of evidence of P does not disprove P’. 
    Well I’m sure we’ve all heard the teapot circling the sun idea. Of course we cannot prove that it doesn’t, but probability and common sense tell us it does not. Of course I could conjure up many more examples but I think we get the point. 

    You stated 
    ‘I do not assert that I believe in God based on empirical proof. I believe in God based on faith’.
    Is this why you avoided answering my question. ‘If it were finally proved tomorrow that Jesus didn’t exist or that he were a mortal man, I’m talking unequivocal evidence that you cannot refute, would you stop believing in your faith???
    Your faith comes from reading the scriptures which to you is evidence of Gods existence. If the bible was never written, would you still have this faith? 
    So I ask again, what if historians discovered text which predates the bible proving a conspiracy between early Christians to immortalise Jesus and fabricate scripture. What would this do to your faith? The evidence which you believe totally discredited. 
    I answered this question from my atheist/agnostic view. I would believe. 
    However, you stated 
    ‘So you would worship him? You’d read the Bible with an open heart and mind, pray, share the Gospel and try to find a good church?
    I cannot answer this for sure but I do not believe I would. Just because God had been proved to be real doesn’t mean I would agree with his teachings. I would have a lot of questions for him and I hate the idea of living under a dictatorship, under totalitarian rule. At the moment I enjoy free will, but under religion I would have no such thing.  

    On your point about me praising Ferns views I take your point with respect to the section you quoted, however my praise was more directed at the following:
    ‘We’re free creatures, we should unite and create a magnificent world based on our reason, tecknology ,justice, cooperation and equality for everyone, it doesn’t matter if jesus existed or not.’
    I like the sound of this existence and believe it preferable to the religious alternative. I’m sure you would disagree. 

    Thank you

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    • Hi Andy,

      Thanks for your comment. You did not respond to everything I said but I will reply to your most recent comments:

      “You said ‘The lack of evidence of P does not disprove P’.
      Well I’m sure we’ve all heard the teapot circling the sun idea. Of course we cannot prove that it doesn’t, but probability and common sense tell us it does not. Of course I could conjure up many more examples but I think we get the point.

      No, I do not get the point. We actually know a great deal about the sun and can observe it quite easily. It is the other 99% of the universe that we know nothing about and cannot observe at all. So one cannot say from a scientific, empirical standpoint “There is no God.” So are you an atheist or really an agnostic?

      If it were finally proved tomorrow that Jesus didn’t exist or that he were a mortal man, I’m talking unequivocal evidence that you cannot refute, would you stop believing in your faith???

      I find it interesting that you use the term “finally” as if you want this prove to surface. Interesting choice of words. But to answer your questions if Jesus Christ did not resurrect from the dead then my faith is completely, 100% in vain and pointless.

      But of course your question and example of an ancient text of a Christian conspiracy begs the question: what if I could prove to you that there is no more documented or provable figure in anqiuity than Jesus Christ? And what if it could be shown that the amount of ancient writings about Him still in existence today dwarfs any other famous figure from antiquity? would you now believe what was written about Him?

      I cannot answer this for sure but I do not believe I would. Just because God had been proved to be real doesn’t mean I would agree with his teachings. I would have a lot of questions for him and I hate the idea of living under a dictatorship, under totalitarian rule. At the moment I enjoy free will, but under religion I would have no such thing.

      So do you obey the laws of the nation/state you live in? Do you think it’s unfair that we even have a legal system? Is this something you find offensive?

      On your point about me praising Ferns views I take your point with respect to the section you quoted, however my praise was more directed at the following:
      ‘We’re free creatures, we should unite and create a magnificent world based on our reason, tecknology ,justice, cooperation and equality for everyone, it doesn’t matter if jesus existed or not.’
      I like the sound of this existence and believe it preferable to the religious alternative. I’m sure you would disagree.

      Well by your worldview, there is no God, so we have been free, right? For the 6,000 years of recorded human history, how well have we done in creating a just, kind society? How have the regimes that have been atheistic done in promoting peace, cooperation and justice for all (think Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot)? I don’t think the facts support you and Fern’s theory. It has only been the law of God that is in everyone’s hearts (the human conscience) that has kept us all from destroying ourselves completely thus far. Where God is removed from society, we see nothing but moral decay and violence. And I challenge you to show me proof of otherwise.

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  63. Beginning and End.

    Thanks again for the reply. 

    I know we can now observe the sun pretty well but this is not the point as I’m sure you know. We can pick another celestial body if you like that is further away. The point is if somebody makes a claim that cannot be disproved it doesn’t mean it is true. 

    Am I an atheist or an agnostic? Good question. I do use the term atheist but maybe I shouldn’t. I don’t believe in a creator but I cannot prove there wasn’t one so it would be small minded of me to 100% dismiss the idea. 

    You said:
    ‘I find it interesting that you use the term “finally” as if you want this prove to surface. Interesting choice of words. But to answer your questions if Jesus Christ did not resurrect from the dead then my faith is completely, 100% in vain and pointless’.

    I respect you for answering this question. You’re the first. 

    You said:
    ‘But of course your question and example of an ancient text of a Christian conspiracy begs the question: what if I could prove to you that there is no more documented or provable figure in anqiuity than Jesus Christ? And what if it could be shown that the amount of ancient writings about Him still in existence today dwarfs any other famous figure from antiquity? would you now believe what was written about Him?’

    The amount of ancient documented accounts doesn’t prove it is fact. No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. But before I run off on a tangent are you asking what I would believe if we had all these things?

    You said:
    ‘So do you obey the laws of the nation/state you live in? Do you think it’s unfair that we even have a legal system? Is this something you find offensive?

    I’d say I obey the vast majority of laws because I agree with them. I do not think it is unfair to have a legal system. In no way do I find this offensive. Why? Because I had a vote in electing the government of my choice as does almost everyone else. If I were to live under a creator I get no vote, no say. His word is infallible and final. Well what if I disagree, am I allowed, does this mean I go to hell even if I am a good person?

    You said:
    ‘Well by your worldview, there is no God, so we have been free, right? For the 6,000 years of recorded human history, how well have we done in creating a just, kind society? How have the regimes that have been atheistic done in promoting peace, cooperation and justice for all (think Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot)? I don’t think the facts support you and Fern’s theory. It has only been the law of God that is in everyone’s hearts (the human conscience) that has kept us all from destroying ourselves completely thus far. Where God is removed from society, we see nothing but moral decay and violence. And I challenge you to show me proof of otherwise’.

    Even if we concede that Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao were Atheists, they did not kill in the name of Atheism. They were brutal dictators, who killed to get political power. 
    communism was (and is) bad because it is totalitarian and dogmatic, just like religion. I believe in free thinking, i’m not against religion. 
    There are good and bad Christians, there are good and bad Muslims, there are good and bad atheists … .You can’t determine if a person is good or bad by a label. You know what a person values by how they act. Consider the following values:

    Free Thinkers value:
    Reason
    Skepticism
    Individual Freedom from authority 
    No Dogma – rules must be continually reevaluated and justified
    Value Evidence and fact based truth –and adjust your agenda to the facts
    Think for yourself

    Totalitarians value:
    Unquestioning obedience
    Centralized authority
    Violent punishment for disobedience 
    Thought Control
    Evidence suppression and propaganda, fit the facts to your agenda, control information, stifle debate
    Emotional appeal
    We’ll think for you - 

    Which set of values more closely matches the activities of religion?

    I notice you left Hitler out of your list, I believe he was catholic or Christian and certainly the vast majority of his generals and soldiers were religious. 
    We both know I could retort with a list of my own of killings made in the name of religion. Please advise if you need it. 

    Can u tell me how to do the quotes in boxes so I can stop with the ‘you said’.
    Thanks 

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  64. Joseph Morabito says:

    I enjoyed this thread, especially the parts from Mac and Dr. O… not to mention Abey’s constant non sequiturs, but I digress. I had just seen the film Zeitgeist and wanted to see how accurate the Jesus comparisons were. I thought I’d heard it all before, so when I heard Peter Joseph’s story, about all the claimed similarities, I had to wonder. So a quick search brought me here. Figures that guy was full of puffery… his 9-11 contentions cast a long shadow on anything else he had/has to say.

    Mr B&E, I have to applaud you on staying in character and comporting yourself well … always asking for people to post their sources/proof. Very clever of you. I guess if people are making certain assertions, that’s fair enough.

    I’ve seen you post several times, that this thread is solely about whether Jesus was plagiarized from past religions. It doesn’t matter to me if he was real or not. The entire concept of a creator, that is smarter than Einstein to the millionth power, with so much to be busy with, would then create a planet rife with one imperfect life form after another. That is both beautiful and horrific at the same time. Where he’s encoded greed, fear and hatred into his preferred species’ DNA. Has punished every generation since “Adam and Eve” for their childlike sin of eating an apple, and suggesting a savior that is his “only begotten son”, which is also actually himself at the same time (the Trinity), instead of just declaring a “Mulligan” and showing love and mercy in the first place. Then “choosing a people” among all the world’s populations while ignoring the rest… is preposterous on its face, and has no business being discussed in a serious fashion in the first place.

    We are thinking beings, and it bothers us to no end that we will cease to exist, and be completely forgotten. Who wouldn’t want to be resurrected to a place without pain and suffering? We all would… but fantasy has no place where reality beacons to the contrary. I do not waste my time calling myself an atheist. In fact, the big “A” atheists are just as dogmatic as any fundamentalist… be they Christian or Moslem. There are no clear answers, and to believe in a god that relies on trickery and obfuscation as a means of communication is patently unreasonable.

    A real god, that had the powers you claim yours to have, and was also known as the “God of love”, would have NO PROBLEMS communicating directly to his “children” in a loving manner… and if he did such a thing… there wouldn’t be a single non believer to be found… except maybe among those that are currently profiting in his name.

    I’m not sure what brand of Christianity you subscribe to, but many suggest that if you don’t/can’t find “the way”, god will kill you for it. Some even suggest that this “heavenly father” would not only kill, but magically preserve that person’s life as he continually tortures them with fire for eternity. Again, that kind of talk alone discredits the bible. There’s too much incongruity between a necessarily scientifically minded creator, and the small minded Yahweh/Jehovah of the bible; that is irreconcilable in my mind…. but faith has been known to paper over all sorts of incongruities and make leaps that otherwise couldn’t have been bridged.


    You asked a question that went unanswered. “The writers of the Bible claimed to write Scripture based on direct inspiration and revelation from God. In other words, it was a supernatural process. Are you saying that they are lying?”

    Yes, they were lying. Every bit as much as Joseph Smith was lying about his divine inspiration.

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    • You do lie when you say you enjoy the thread, in all your regrets to the article, without regarding what the article is about, this is but to say your enjoyment comes from the spirit of the Anti Christ(Occultists) that works in you, suggest you seek help by beginning to understanding your very first name- Joseph, the truth of it.

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      • Joseph Morabito says:

        Thanks Abey, that must be it… I lied. Whew, that sure summed it all up.

        Oh, and my name is that of my father and his father before him. Nothing more. No one from the bible would turn their head in reply at the utterance of “Joseph”, just as I would not respond to however their names were actually pronounced in their day. I couldn’t care less about some loosey-goosey ancient tie in to my name… coincidence at best.

        Still, I wish you no evil, though it’s fair to infer from the tenor of your comment that the feeling isn’t mutual.

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    • Joseph I was not calling you a lier, but the anti christ spirit in you again lie, for you should know that all names are off God , just as the Bible states.

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      • Did you just tell this man he has an anti-christ spirit! Who are to judge his heart, Only God knows the Heart, that is what Christianity preaches right? Wow, smh more put downs in the name of religion!!

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  65. DISCLAIMER – I am impressed by the huge amount of comments and impressums this post still generate. Now I will try to give a personal overlook upon christianity and the figure of Christ. I therefore declare that all I am gonna write belongs to my own reflections, beliefs, readings and experience.

    Catholic religion and catholicism as a doctrine and everyday practice are tightly related with guilt. Considering the symbolism which is essential to it – wood of crucifixion, martyr of its saints, its most important and peculiar [rituals] sacraments [such as baptism, confession and last rites of anointment] – it is plain, almost self-evident that the very lever of this religious feeling is blame and its atonement. Even more generally at its roots, Christendom as “Doctrine of Christ” may be redirect to guilt – either as a feeling and as a concept: the descent on earth of God in Christ for “cleansing of every sin” until the original sin of Adam, death on the cross and resurrection, extrema ratio of a total redemption path that goes from the comfort of the poor and the last – which are not to blame for being this way on earth, and if they were they would anyway be forgiven in heaven – to the compassion of rich and powerful, ’cause death strikes them down too, after all: that is why the human kind has been forgiven of its imperfections with the perfection of a god-like man who can die, the only act that is not proper of an infinite deity, and then resurrect, the only act that is not proper of a mortal and finite being.

    This is dogma. Christian, Catholic, Christologic and eschatologic [1], that is “religious in western sense”. Not a single christian – surely not a catholic! – can refuse this as a matter of fact: his religion is centered on guilt. Some might say “Christ is love!” but message means “an individual who has taken upon his shoulder the weight of a whole generation, his own generation, and together with that the weight of man-kind as a whole (because an individual can act only in the span of a century) decided to sacrifice himself for others, not for a personal payback [say only moral] – like often volunteers do – but because all this is part of a [transcendental] master plan, greater than the will of individuals… dying on the cross he became the scapegoat of every sin: great and small, original (the mere fact that one is born) and every-day ones (the two thieves beside Christ are there to remind just that)”.

    Well, that is “love” for sure… but if that model of love is the one all of us must conform to, the feeling of guilt that overwhelms everyone who fails (and not everyone is willing to die on a cross for the whole human-kind!) is unavoidable! Unless the tale and the mission of every Leben Jesu still infers to a mediate atonement: you don’t have to do it yourself, dear believer, because He already thought about it! Then is self-evident the meaning of the guilty feeling: the giving of oneself life is unmeasurable, and nothing can fill this gap. The Christian is lost: if the Catholic can still confess his blame to a priest, the guilty feeling remains in the soul of the non-catholic (christian protestant of any kind) since it is established from a divine master plan whose soul is saved and whose is doomed. This lack of a sin-forgiveness “mechanism” – which only the role of a confessor priest can ignite and solve – proper of the protestant non-catholic has a peer in the lack of “free will”, which is the active counterpart of guilt: after all, everything has started with the original sin, Adam “decides” that the tree of knowledge can be violated and that makes him free and guilty at the same time. Free to know the difference between good and bad (which God’s Will might have left in the background) but guilty of being free.

    However, there’s something else. Let’s put it in this way, pretending this thesis is flawless: Catholicism is a religion of guilt. More and better than protestantism: his “freedom bounded by a divine masterplan” set him free from the mechanism sin-forgiveness, which the catholic has a strong need of. Something escapes from critic: Christ is not christendom. Not even his teachings and predications, according to the four canonic gospels, can be considered as a whole unity, despite the canon itself!

    Lucky enough, Herr Luther set us free from this identity Christ = Scriptures: the canon which Catholic Church has thrusted. The principle of sola scriptura as the only source of authority has been used to reaffirm the primacy of catholicism over the predication of Christ’s word. Of course, the role of Church is fundamental. It is part of a dialectic in which the word of the predicator find its system: without the boundaries of the four Gospels, the Father of the Church and their thoughts, Scholastic, the form of Christ as we know it would not have the same meaning [2], and we should refuse any “enlightened dullness” that take for granted just everything it is found in the Bible! If it were possible, christians should worship Saint Jerome and he only, because he translated the Bible from greek to latin, and any other language apart from this should be considered heretic, blasphemous or simply barbarian. The extreme consequences of reflection (and predication) of Martin Luther are the greatest freedom of [biblical] hermeneutics, but also the trendy [3] interpretation according to which Christendom is a product of a mythical melting-pot, made of rituals and celebration belonging to different cultures: Zoroaster, Isis-Horus, Mitra, Dionysus-Apollo would be the ancestors of the only true God; their followers fought for the primacy during an age of spiritual decay; the preaching of Christ were not the only one, although it arose among others and rooted in the hellenic-roman philosophical ground, weakening (or enriching) the concurrent doctrines.

    The debate is far from any peaceful ending: among the hardest, the defenders of Absolute Originality, back up by those humanists tutors which are strongly persuaded that the whole history, from Alexander the Great and Aristotle, to Augustus and Virgil, is nothing but a preparation of the field for the upcoming buona novella: Christ dies and borns again, the cross is the tangible symbol of the beginning of a new age; in opposition, and fiercely sustained by the most unbreakable materialists, the debunker of the Christian “truffle”: the preaching of Christ has been bent by a particular lobby of thinkers and clericals that was able to influence the choices of Kings… Step by step, the original message has been modified, for it had to match habits and beliefs of greater bands of empire’s population, so that – ”plagiarizing” here and there dogmas, beliefs, and rituals from different cults – it has been conceived a complex articulated structure from the starting point of few simple words of a jewish predicator.

    The story of the life of Jesus has caught many men and women. Either was he a man who lived on earth, or a fictional character, “son of the man”, created on purpose by a group of jewish anti-romans rebels; either he was the son of God – yet a logical contradiction, since it is illogic that a perfect infinite being extends itself furthermore and inhabits temporary something finite without prejudicing his own perfection – or some of his logical emanations, a special creature of him, an evolutionary stage… Interpretations are many, maybe infinite.

    [img src="http://wp.me/a1K0P4-8u"]
    Caravaggio, The Incredulity of Saint Thomas, 1601-1602.

    [img src="http://wp.me/a1K0P4-8u"]
    Andrej Rublev, Christ as Saviour, about 1420.

    [img src="http://wp.me/a1K0P4-8u"]
    Caravaggio, The Taking of Christ, 1602.

    [img src="http://wp.me/a1K0P4-8u"]
    Andrej Rublev, Crucifixion, about XV century.

    [1] escatòn logos: discourse about afterlife. The term refers almost exclusively to those religious (rarely philosohical) doctrine which are about existence of life after death: since “western” means also “proper of something mortal” (from latin “occido”, “morire”, related to the death of Sun in the West) I believe is coherent to connect christian eschatology to the profound meaning of every religion meant in a western sense.

    [2] Maybe it could have none at all! Anyway it could have a radically different meaning if we only based our conjectures upon the apocryphes Gospels, or the Gnostic ones.

    [3] One should consider Zeitgeist [ger. "Spirit of Age"] in which different sorts of conspiracy thesis are introduced by a chapter conceived to destroy the myth of Christendom as original and universal religion.

      (Quote)

    • Except that Herr Luther leavened the word Faith with the words only to make it “Faith only ” changing the whole essence of the Faith to the occult seen clearly coming out of the pulpits like the Todd bentelys ’cause it contradicts St. James to the words “Faith without works is dead” neither is it “works only’ a la Buddha to his karma but the simple plain Christian Truth to salvation “Grace only” . It is interesting to note the Biblical words of the manner” For they were with us, who went out from among us & are not of us”, which evidence is becoming clearer by the day,. Truth may be covered by falseness but for a surety cannot be hidden.

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      • I agree with the very last sentence. But I am not sure of what you really meant in the previous ones.
        Would you like to make it a little bit brighter?

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      • When you say you understood the last , it is strange that you have not understood the first, ’cause they compliment each other. The Prophecy of the Apostle is referring to them plucked out from the main body. It is but to say when a Church has its basic fundamentals to the belief, that which is to the truth, then the resultant answer can be obtained even by trial & error, but when its fundamentals have become in Error then no amount of understanding can bring about the answer, to its fulness. Herr, by his leaven contradicted St James(who even wanted to remove the words of St. James), thus contradicting the faith, the faith that was once & for all delivered unto the Saints come through the Apostles called the Apostolic faith. This very Error is showing through America born off England in Protestantism by Freemasonry (the arch enemy of the Traditional Churches especially the Catholic), the manifestation of that Enmity put by God between the serpent & the Woman at Eden. Its result Prophesied. To the gods of Freemasonry, calling it a infallible name but of Mumbo Jumbo is but to ancient Egyptian beliefs, that which enslaved a people Physically then, now tries to enslave man Spiritually , to the Hindu ones, Plagiarization indeed.

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  66. Beginning and end, your dedication and persistence to this article is very impressive. The work you have done here is going to be a help to so many in the pursuit of defending there faith. It is a comfort to know there are great Christian minds doing the work of the Lord and we can thank God for his enlightenment.

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    • Hey Jerry – Thank God indeed. We are honored to serve Him. Your words are much appreciated. God bless.

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      • robinson says:

        if indeed christianity isnt guess work by primitive people of the past i.e,God created plants before He created the sun, God did not create the earth according to genesis,it existed and was formless,and was in existence before the sun?. are we all relatives of noah? i.e noah’s family repopulated the whole world in about 5000 years?and finally,why did the ressurected Jesus only appear to His followers and not the whole of jerusalem?my point is we are supposed to believe the account of the disiples and if we dont belive what the disiples say,the God will send us to Hell!!! doesnt that sound strange to you?,Jesus preached all around jerusalem and not to a secret few,but resurected and appeared to a selected few,who if we dont believe in their account then we go to hell!! doesnt God want us all in heaven,why does He truly prove Himself to a chosen few,the the rest of us have to deal with secondary stories? and why do the miracles in the gospel not happen in the present times,i.e people being raised from the dead through prayer? and why did God give advantage to a few,i.ea few know the absolute truth(that is have physisically seen and spoken to heavenly beings) while the rest have to deal with relative truth. and by the way,i am a christian, i just dont want to be a zombie!!

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        • Hi !! I used to be a christian, but i had a hard time beliving that a kind hearted person that not belivied in christ would go to hell.. that is just wrong. And its called judgement. Everybody should seek in there heart and find that love will guide you home and tear down the walls to free your soul from this matrix of bull–.. religion , illuminati is just about controlling. Free your mind , go your own way , find yourself , who are you really? In the end you just got yourself , and we should not follow any ancient scripters with no profe.. thats just dangerous torwords your soul. Love eachother and love yourself….

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          • Hi Sanna,

            Thanks very much for your comments. What I find interesting is that you bash religion as being a part of the “matrix” and “control system” but yet you end your comments by saying ‘Love each other and love yourself.’ So here you are telling people what to think in order to “free your soul.” You are preaching a religion. Why does one have to “love each other and love yourself”? Because you say so? Because there is some inherent imperative to do so? ALL people in the world should follow what you happen to think is the way to live life? I hope you see you are doing the exact thing you say is so wrong.

            The other problem with your statement is that is starts with the assumption that all people are inherently good. We are good at heart and kind, and can just get better as we grow older. This is not true. The Bible is here to show us that we are not good. Romans 3 says: ” As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” In Romans 6 we read, “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” We are all sinners. We have all violated God’s clear commandments. And we know we have. Hence us having a conscience, which literally means “with knowledge.” We knowingly sin over and over again each day. And we are well aware of it. And God, in addition to being our Creator, is also our Judge. And a just judge will not let crimes just slide unpunished. This is why we need forgiveness and salvation in Jesus Christ.

            Just “loving each other” is not enough because we cannot be perfectly loving to all people. We get angry, hateful, jealous, we lust for people who are taken, we harbor racist or sexist thoughts and so on. We steal from one another. This is not love. It’s sin. And in your religious system, sin can just go on with no consequence. That is not just. That is injustice. God does not deal with humanity this way. Instead, He has shown us our sin through our conscience and the words of The Holy Bible. And He has announced His judgment beforehand, which is hell and the lake of fire. But He has also proclaimed a way to escape this curse – faith in Jesus Christ.

            Jesus Christ said: “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (John 3:17-21).

            Our human nature tells us to ignore our sin, and keep them in darkness. This is why Christianity and Jesus Christ offend so many people – they do not want to confront their sins and wrong standing before God. But rather than threaten, God welcomes all to come back to Him and be reconciled:

            Jesus said: “38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:38-40).

            All we simply have to do is put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins and we are saved eternally. That’s it. No work, or task, or mission required. It takes place in the heart. This is the basis of Christianity. And I hope and pray you consider God’s offer rather than reject and preaching your own religion.

            How to Get to Heaven

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  67. Hi again !! Do you know that you just said that everybody is a sinner n steal and hate eachother? what is wrong with you? That is so not true, yes i agree in some parts what you said, but the only way is not Jesus christ for everybody to find true happiness. I was born in to christianty and went to a christian school until i was 15 , i was always judge n felt no freedom, it felt wrong. Ive always been a spiruallty person since i was four years old for some reason. And i never felt closer to God than i do today, took me many years to find true happiness, and the truth about this world, i think everybody should seek the truth and i still do, its no end in space , how can religion explain everything? we all need to seek in our own hear, we are all uniqe. Dont forget that, n ive seen you always quote from the bible, i mean dont you have anything own to say? i can the bible inside and out, but te revulations is the only one i found intressting becouse it filled with codes, if you are smart. Im from sweden not america, but ive travelled alot and used to live in usa and differente countries and religion is desame everywhere, full of judgement. To say to people that they should love eachther is not wrong, just a step in the right directions, Jesus said that himself.. ” Love your next ” remember ? and yes is not enough, but again love is the way, if you dont love yourself you cnt love anybody else, God created you and to give thanx everyday that you exist is important. That he gave you life or what God is, he might not even be a he you know. I just feel God and it is amazing, im a better person today and i devodet my life to help people… and ive seen the kindness in people… And its rising. Cause people are starting to wake up, its a holy war, and im a soldier of God , working for godness, not the bad person i used to be. Scared of always doing something wrong so i might not get in to heaven… And really heaven is that all.. no its not , it goes further then that, open your cloesd mind. So yeah when u die you get to heaven and then what? just stay there for all etornity? That is just way to boring for me personally.. I like to think that it more than that,. And i know that because ive seen it. If you open your eyes more , you will aswell.. God Luck to you :) and God bless you

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    • Hey Sanna,

      Hej. Tack för dina ord. I have been to Sweden several times and know Stockholm well. It is a beautiful place. But is there strong support for Christianity there? I’ll leave that to you to answer. Getting back to your response. I did not say all people are sinners. God did. And it’s true. If you want to proclaim that you do not sin, then you are just breaking the 9th commandment of bearing false witness, or lying.

      It seems that you are trying to have it both ways. We can’t know God, but we can know that loving people will make him happy. Religion does not have all the answers, but you and your “religion of love” is the ultimate answer. You say that we should believe the Bible, but you know there is more than Heaven, based on what? Your opinion? Your gut feeling?

      All this is essentially pride – a sin that we all suffer from. Rather than acknowledge God, YOU want to be God. You want to make all the rules for what is good, bad and what happens when we die. This is just making yourself into an idol. The truth of the matter is that we are all sinners who stand guilty before God and we all know it.

      I am sorry for the experiences you had in your school and church life. But salvation is not something that you “might lose.” Once you are saved, you are saved eternally. You are not at risk of losing it because of a sin. Why? Because you did NOT earn it in the first place. Eternal life and forgiveness of sins is given freely. You don’t merit it. It’s a nice fantasy to think we can right every wrong we have done in life, but in reality it does not work that way. Every crime should be punished, and again, God being our Judge, and a just one, is going to see to it. The only questions is who will take the punishment: you or Jesus Christ.

      I hope you really consider the truth of the Bible. Unlike every other religion in the world that tells you you are good, and through certain actions or rituals you can be even better, or become a god, Christianity tells the truth – you’re not good. I’m not good. In fact, we’re pretty bad. And God is not happy about it. But we can be forgiven when we humble ourselves and seek God’s mercy, through faith in Jesus Christ, not by doing nice deeds for other people.

      I do believe love is an important part of a Christian’s life because God is love. And proved His love by sending His Son to die for us. Romans 5:8 says: “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Jesus said a physician comes to heal the sick. If you don’t acknowledge your sin, then you don’t need a Savior. I hope you reconsider your thoughts on being a perfect person and listen to God’s invitation.

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    • Bless You Sanna, You are precious soul! I understand what you are saying and I can feel the love you put forth! Many blessings to you!!! People are starting to wake up but hopefully no more wars in the name of religion! I can tell God is truly with you!!!

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  68. Hi again !!

    Everybody should have the choice to Belive in what they want , without being threatened to go under. Its no end in space, it goes on for eternity..
    I belive in love, My heart used to be broken, my life was spirialing down. I could not go on , had to heal my soul for real. Only you, yrself know the way, we are all Uniqe.

    thank you for yr response… But im im finally happy, no one can take that away from me…

    God Bless you / s

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    • Joseph Morabito says:

      Hi Sanna,
      You said, “Everybody should have the choice to Belive in what they want , without being threatened to go under. Its no end in space, it goes on for eternity..” and I agree with that. Thing is, you are going to be hard pressed to get an agenda driven person, especially one so heavily invested in their faith, to ever agree to such a thing. Without the threat of hellfire, or at least ‘everlasting death’ when others are said to live for eternity, they lose their power.

      I can’t tell you if there is a god or not, but I can tell you that it isn’t the guy that the bible describes. I hope you continue to be happy. Much success to you in your life.

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      • Hi Joseph. Not sure if this will apply or not but I have found that many people who makes comments like “not sure if there is a god but it isn’t the one in the Bible” are confused by numerous statements in the Pentateuch which, among other things, call for the anniihlation of the Caananites, Amalakites & Midianites as well as homosexuals and rebellious children. You should know that these are quotes from the ancient law codes of Hammurabi and Eshunna. While traveling thru the wilderness, the Hebrews would be subjected to such laws and had to be acquainted with them. We follow this same principle today. For example, back in the 90s a young American boy was arrested in Singapore for breaking car windows. The judge sentenced him to be cained 6 times with a martial weapon and the boy responded “Your honor, you can’t have me cained. You see I am an American and in America that is considered cruel and unusual punishment.” The judge then responded “This ain’t America boy.” You are correct though in saying that this is not a characteristic of the true God who expresses unconditional love to all. .

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      • The Lie has a repetitive nature, ’cause it is devoid of The Truth.

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        • Joseph Morabito says:

          Abbey,
          Well, I can say one thing about you… you’re very predictable.

          Howie,
          That’s essentially my point.

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  69. Thank you for a very fine and much needed article. back in 2002 i was invited to be a guest on the Cygnus Atheist website. I was sort of their token believer. Acharya S. was a regular contributor to the site and most of the adherents adored her and quoted her frequently. When I challenged her to produce a source for any of these parallels to Christ, she suddenly went silent. Later on I presented the same challenge to Earl Doherty and he responded that he would get back to me with the answer after he returned from his “working vacation in the Mediterranean.” Its been over ten years now. I wish I could take that long of a vacation.

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    • Prophets of false gods are the false prophets, typical of women like Acharya(taking on a hindu name to the truth of it)) or unto a man like Earl to its beliefs to that of Ancient Egypt, freemasonic still, are natured to run away whenever the truth confronts them.

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      • Why do you keep bashing Hindus and calling them evil, I have heard your theory be fore have you heard this one..The Indians (Aztec, Mayan, Olmec etc. could be the Race of Cain, they do not grow facial hair.,ever notice that they don’t have a lot of facial hair some think that is the Mark of Cain, It is more in depth but I don’t have time to find it for you, so keep seeking!! Do you find yourself righteous bashing these people and calling them cursed because of Cain do you Know this oi Be honest Truth, because there are many theories and speculation on the bloodline of Cain!! There is no factual Proof just theories!!!!!!!!!!! You are to love YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF! You do not know Jesus’s Love because he ate with the sinners for a reason! Think on that!!

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  70. Michael Smith says:

    Thank you so much for doing this! Every time I hear someone say “Jesus was copied from pagan myths” I will refer them to this site.

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  71. Copy of other religions or not, Jesus was a very special man that showed us how to live and conduct ourselves: with unconditional love – that’s the bottom line!! He was not a descendent of David – if he was, the birth could not have been virginal. Ultimately, it does not matter whether the birth was virginal or not. At this point, however, I do not wish to go into the huge number of inconsistencies in the bible that make that book the most confusing ever compiled, made even worse by the fact that Constantine was following a political and strategic agenda when he instructed that the bible should be written and then chose what should be included.

    Just for one moment, remove Jesus from the bible and study what he said objectively. His parables of the prodigal son and the good Samaritan demonstrate quite remarkably, BEFORE HE WAS KILLED, that HIS god was all-forgiving, and that there was no judgement at all. He fought the Jews and their laws tooth and nail and at every turn; he derided them, in particular the Pharisees who were the priests; he didn’t want anything to do with Judaism, he talked to them about “your God and my God”. Jesus did not die for our sins; God does not see sin otherwise the parable does not make sense; after all, we are created in his likeness, are we not? We are in Him and He is in us. Jesus was killed by the Jews because they did not like what he said to them, including that he was the son of God, and because he broke all their laws, and because he was getting too big a following for their liking. Of course he was the son of God – every single living person on this earth is a son (or daughter) of God, whether you are a Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian or whatever.

    One last point – nowhere, EVER, did Jesus say we should worship him. But since it is in the nature of man to seek some form of deity to worship, and since it is in religion’s interest to keep us all as ignorant sinners, we keep giving money to make ourselves feel better and the church richer.

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    • i have one questions, pls help me.. in bible, it is writen god created the world, then adam and eve..they give birth to cain and abel….
      Cain and abel get married,,, yes get married… but to whom??? where does this this women come from??? seens we knows there is only adam,eve,cain and abel was the on the earth.. pls answer??

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      • Hi Nick,

        Adam (who lived to be 930 years) and Eve had many children who are not named in Scripture. We are only told of the children who relate to he Messianic bloodline. Cain is the most relevant as he is the firstborn son of Adam and thus could have potentially qualified as the “seed of the woman”/Messiah God had prophesied in Genesis 3:15. He of course was disqualified because he was a wicked rebel against God and killed his younger brother Abel.The next son in line was Seth, who was righteous and thus could continue the lineage that would lead to the Savior, as recorded in Genesis 5. But there were many other children born to Adam and Eve.

        This is why by the time Cain is punished, he takes his wife with him to the land of Nod. Many people incorrectly say Cain found his wife there. He did not:

        ” And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. 17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.” – Genesis 4:16-17.

        Can had a wife already but concceived with her after being banished. So the world was already populated beyond the 2 sons and their parents. Clearly in the over 800 years that Adam had children, many generations of cousins, aunts, uncles, etc. could have been born.

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        • B & E- Well said, Biblically. Incidentally the words “knew his wife” is to become one flesh to the reproduction, for from Adam was Eve created, to become one by the commandment of God “Be fruitful” to the multiplication. In other words multiply on the basis of the Origin made by the Lord God as an understanding to the truth of marriage, for they become one in their Children that cannot be separated or divided either Spiritually or Biologically, to the words “What God joined together let no man put asunder.”

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    • Hi Nick, what an excellent question. In the same way that the earth is not 6000 years old, is not on pillars, is not flat, etc. etc., the human being that is known as Adam in the bible was not the first human on earth. Unfortunately religion does not like us to make a distinction between actual events and metaphor, particularly when it comes to creation. Cain and Abel had no trouble finding wives because at the time there were many other humans living on earth that were not descendants of Adam.

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      • The theory of Origin is that many comes from one & not one come from many to a formation, like a single cell multiplying itself. to a structure. Common sense.

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        • Exactly – THEORY. Nice buzzwords that the masses that cannot think for themselves hang on to. But in any event, origin is millions of years ago, and humans at least hundreds of thousands, if not also millions. Cain did not have to marry a distant cousin, there were many other women to go around.

          Interesting that B&E also refers to the Messianic lineage; what lineage? I mentioned in an earlier comment that if Mary’s conception was indeed immaculate, and Joseph had nothing to do with it except hold her hand, what does lineage have to do with it? More importantly, why would Christianity want to hang on to the lineage thing? Is it not far more important to analyse what Jesus of Nazareth taught us and told us about HIS Father, and to live by it?

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          • The pagan beliefs is that many a hundred thousand years ago, according to some even millions, they had kingdoms , horses & carts & it seems it took a long time to advance from bullock cart to motor cars which cannot be & so according to your theory they were sleeping in between times to very long times a la Rip Wan Winkle. or were they Monkeys able to make & draw carts stuck on the brake for a long time, in any case one of them seems to be mentioned in Daniel as the “Strange god” god of the Caesar.

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          • Hi Lutz,

            Jesus Christ had a human mother. So He does indeed have an actual genetic lineage that goes back to King David and Abraham. His lineage matters for several reasons. One it proves that God’s Word is true. Over 4,000 years ago, God promised Abraham, a “Seed” who would have a nation that could not be numbered. That “seed” is Jesus Christ. The world would be saved through Him. King David, a descendant of Abraham was promised that the Messiah would come through his lineage and sit on His throne. This will be fulfilled when Jesus, a descendant of David, will rule in Jerusalem at His Second Coming. So the prophecies of the Old Testament are fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

            It also shows that Jesus IS human. He IS fully God and fully man. He hungered. He thirsted. He was tired. He felt pain, fatigue. And He felt temptation: ” but [Jesus] was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Hebrews 4:15). Christ went through all the same struggles we did but followed Holiness to the death. And this made Him a perfect sacrifice for humanity.

            We can try our best to “live by what Jesus taught” and think we can “Earn” our way to Heaven, but that is a delusion. The Bible is clear that the wages of sin is death. No matter how many good deeds we do, it does not somehow remove the guilt of the thousands upon thousands of sins we have committed. What Jesus taught is to believe in Him for forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Jesus said: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:40. This is what is most important. but in order to have a Savior, you must acknowledge your sin, otherwise, what would you need to be saved from? The real question then is, do you really believe Jesus or not?

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  72. Wait a minuteso you’re saying that only your gang can be saved but if you think differently than all mighty Jesus will damn you…what kind of god is that?? keep your elitist, racist bigot god to yourself.
    Hi Griffo,

    I absolutely respect other religions and readily defend everyone’s right to choose their faith, whatever it may be. That does not mean I find them to be valid from a spiritual standpoint. Jesus Christ said:I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. – John 14.6So it’s not my opinion on Christianity. Jesus declared Himself the exclusive way to Heaven. Once again, it is your choice to believe or not believe that but that is the standard that Jesus set Himself.

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    • God said “I place before you life & death, Chose Life”. To Chose Life one needs to contend for the Truth, for in Him is the Truth to the Life, In Biblical terms the Tree of life whose head is Jesus & the tree of the knowledge of good & evil whose head is satan. Choosing life is to the tree of Life & choosing death is to the other, which He forbid to eat of it, but man did take of it & he did die the reality until this day. Ultimately it is to the word of God in the obedience , Today it can be understood as the Christian way to life (the detour way) or the Pagan or Atheist way (either side of the same coin) to death, the current way of the world. Again to the understanding, when God commanded not to take of the it was meant so but in general the world takes it as God actually intended man to take the fruit of the forbidden tree to the human reasoning as to why should he plant the tree at all. By this reasoning he makes the word of God unto a lie, resulting in the tendency of man to “Say one, do another” the very Principal of freemasonry which is to the lie, Freemasonry come as an organization( through the pagan beliefs in the deceit) which happens to be the manifestation of the very Enmity put by God between the serpent & the woman at Eden. For the Enmity concerns the salvation
      To the truth as to why God planted the tree of Good &Evil but forbid man to take of its fruit is thus: Since He planted the tree His intention was for man to have the knowledge of Good & Evil without indulging in it for had man resisted the temptation of the serpent by keeping the Commandment of God he would have developed what is known as the “power of resistance” (that which Jesus tells unto His 7 churches in revelation-Just as I overcame so should you) which would invariably have led him to the tree of life & from it would have taken the knowledge of the tree of Good & Evil without being Defiled. Today through the indulgement is the confusion to calling good as evil & evil as good. It is stated that at the end the Angels of God would separate the wheat from the chaff & how can they who have not taken of the fruit not been defiled as man clearly distinguish between Good & Evil which is but to say that they come from the tree of Life, proof enough. Simplicity is to the mind of Christ(the Lord from heaven) to be taken as is said, to His words ‘I am the Way, the Truth to the Life” to The Father. Not much of options through understanding this, cause the option is only one that is – Life eternal, by Him open unto all of man

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  73. While I agree about the date of birth being a fallacy….the following I can’t agree with:

    “The two most common stories of Dionysus’ birth involve the god Zeus, his father, either impregnating the mortal woman Semele, or impregnating Persephone (the Greek Queen of the underworld). In either instance, it is not a virgin birth”

    Semele was a virgin prior to Zeus impregnating her. Mary was supposedly a virgin prior to being impregnated by the alleged “Holy Spirit”. There seems to be a misinterpretation of what qualifies as a “virgin birth”. Both of these characters are essentially sons of virgins.

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    • Jesus born of Mary come in the regeneration, not to be confused with reincarnation, the lord from Heaven being the Express image of God to know God, called The Father can only be by His express Image called the Christ, for no man has ever seen God nor heard His voice, Jesus is His voice called the WORD, unto Apostle Philip did he say by the Spirit(for God is Spirit, The Father of all Spirits, ‘Seeing me is seeing the Father” who is Sovereign above all things seen & unseen. Now coming to the truth of Zeus & all the pagan gods & their ‘esses are from the tree of Good & Evil which is to satan biblically stated of the manner “The Principalities & Powers –wickedness in Heavenly like places” ‘Heavenly like ” not to the Heaven of God & Wickedness it is, like Zeus full of deceit & cunningness said to have unsurped his own father, likewise are they all. Again the truth behind this goes to the fall of man at Eden, fallen into Paganism & hence to its gods to further understand as mentioned in acts regarding Israel of the manner” For they sacrificed unto Molech & took up the star of their god remphan & worshiped figures they mad unto themselves & for this reason God turned aside & gave them up to worship the host of heaven” which are the principalities & powers mentioned, like the heathens of the time since the fall. This is a clear understanding that it is the sovereign God who puts the people to the various worships according to their hearts. In today’s term it can be called “Demotions” when it comes to worship, for none of this lead to Him wherein is life eternal, ’cause there is something known as “Worthy to Worship Him” to the Holiness. But by His Mercy sent His only Begotten Son, His express Image, on whose image is Man created to the words of Jesus “I am the way, the Truth & The Life ” unto the Father(no other way as earlier mentioned))to life eternal, it is also to known that satan & his angels have devised ways to what is called ‘Immortality” if certain myths of Hinduism is read, dubious means not to the eternity of God. It is also interesting to note that some time back the freemasons depicted a statue of Washington as Zeus( resonating the truth of America & that which comes of it -Babylon) ), for he will deceive the whole world, even the Elect if possible, by the “Sorcery”.

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      • Joseph Morabito says:

        I really enjoy reading Abbey’s convoluted apologetics.

        The thing you Christians insist on keeping your eyes clenched over, is the most basic question of all: Why would the “Almighty” need to go through all these shenanigans in the first place? Why wouldn’t he be reasonable and communicate in a direct fashion with his “earthly children”? There is only one reason why a being that is supposed to be light years ahead of anything we can imagine as far as intelligence goes, would be credited with the evil deeds of the old testament… because he is an evolving creation by frightened mankind. By all means, cling to your beliefs, you’d end up like a pile of rags on the floor if you were to discover the truth.

        Now hurry back and tell me that I’m just being duped by Satan again… it’s the best way out of an ugly situation you face when real question are put before you.

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        • Your address points to west minister Abbey, once a Holy place but now where the devil converges, the seat of Freemasonry , on her Majesty’s secret service, there where is too much Knowledge which to you is too little, both are dangerous, in your case suggest to come out of that Spirit of Slavery that still exists in you.. Moreover your “Enjoyment” has led to a revelation- of the Devil.

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          • Joseph Morabito says:

            [smirking with irrepressible giggles, trying not be overtly rude]
            Abey (sorry about the previous additional “b”), I kneel to your superior intellect. You have bested me with your clear thought and stunningly sharp wit.

            Your devoted fan,
            Joseph Morabito

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          • No need for apologies Morabito, but to come out of her, the witchcraft that enslaves, & to this there is only one who can help The Christ, for who the Son sets free is free indeed. There was this case of a popular sportsman, a hardcore Pagan who got caught in a match fixing scandal & was jailed expecting a long haul even life to a disgrace & while in the jail came to know about Jesus, he was surprisingly released a few days later, coming out of the Jail clutching a portrait of Jesus held dearly to his heart with both hands & at on time the picture fell to the ground breaking its frame & he would not budge from the spot outside the jail till it was reframed & back into his hands, that was faith to his liberty, set free by the Son.

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    • Hi John,

      Thanks for your comment. And yes, I think we are in disagreement over what “virgin birth” means.So for clarity’s sake, I am going to be blunt. In terms of the Bible, Mary was pregnant without having sex. When she delivered her baby, The Lord Jesus Christ, she still had never had sex. Thus fufilling the Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 7:14: “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son..”

      As you already pointed out, Semele had sexual relations with Zeus and was impregnated. Whether she was a virgin before this is not relevant. The point the article is making is that Semele was impregnated via sexual relations and not a supernatural conception of her child, Dionysus. So this was definitely not a “virgin birth.” So despite what Zeitgeist and other misinformation agents say, Dionysus and Jesus Christ do not share that same birth story.

      I hope that clarifies things.

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    • John Nicholson – you state “Semele was a virgin prior to Zeus impregnating her. Mary was supposedly a virgin prior to being impregnated by the alleged “Holy Spirit”. By your standards, I also was born of a virgin. My mother was a virgin prior to my father impregnating her. You guys are getting desperate.

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      • Something else I should note. I first came in contact with this woman Acharya S back in 2002 when I was guest on the Cygnus Atheist site. Sam Gibson (AKA Cygnus) was an open minded fellow and the two of us made friends in spite of coming to different conclusions. We had talked about getting together for lunch but his job moved him out west. Acharya was a frequent contributor to the site and had a strong following among certain other contributors. She is a pretty blonde and I think that added to their infatuation with her. Back then she was making the same claims about Buddha and Jesus being from the same mold. She has since backtracked on this as apparently dead religions are easier to deceive people about. Anyway, I challenged Acharya to provide documentation for her claims and, despite being an almost daily contributor, she suddenly went silent – this to the chagrin of her followers. Over the past 11 years I have sent her numerous letters making the same request. None were ever answered. I have also put a number of posts on her YouTube video sites; only to have each one erased. Strange how a pretty blonde can get away without these people checking what she says but those of us from the other perspective are subjected to all kinds of desperate investigations.

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  74. Akil Lanton says:

    Jesus is God and the story is real,
    The only copy he did is from is heavenly father with much zeal,
    I cant speak for everyone or even change,
    but for me Jesus is God and his holy spirit reigns!

    Romans 1:25
    Matthew 7:21
    1 Peter 1:3

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  75. I suggest u actually sit back and seriously think about what your beliefs are. You believe that a supernatural being created the universe, and that this supernatural being actually cares about so many mundane aspects of our lives, from who we sleep with to what days we are to work. I believe that if you are educated and have at least a little common sense then you cannot truly believe in a God. After all you are all atheists concerning all other religions. You don’t believe in Thor or Zeus, in fact u probably find these polytheistic religions laughable. So why is your God the one true one?
    If your God did exist, then he either has no ability to influence ourselves or our environment, or he just doesn’t care. How many times have we heard someone say they ‘thank God’ for their cancer or serious other illness being cured. Well how many times have we heard this from an amputee? None!
    Approx 24,000 children under the age of 5 die every day. Most of these from serious illness or starvation and many from abuse. Where is your omnipotent God while this happens every single day?
    If you want to believe in fairy tale and folklore then it is entirely up to you. If the religious practiced their beliefs in their own homes I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But we all know that religion has caused so much bloodshed and continues to do so, all in the name of false deities.

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    • To begin with, atheism has caused more than its share of deaths. The accursed teaching of Spontaneous generation brought about the deaths of millions simply because physicians refused to properly wash their hands during surgeries and child delivery. Margaret Sanger’s concept of Eugenics led to the Nazi Holocaust and again more unnecessary deaths. Both Zeus and Thor are mythical deities whereas the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam entered human history. And what you are asking for as proof of this would involve a creative miracle which, by definition is quite rare. I have never seen anyone’s leg restored but I do know of physicians who have verified the restoration of a new set of eyes in a child named Betty Baxter; born with empty sockets (Betty now has 20/20 vision), the roof of a man’s mouth completely restored after being eaten away by cancerous inflammation known as Wegner’s disease (Bob Bennett), the restoration of a hip bone in a man’s body and the disappearance of a six incision and a metal pacemaker in a man’s brain and its restoration (the latter verified by physicians at Johns Hopkins Hospital). As to why God does not perform such miracles more regularly, I suspect it is our own fault but actually a question I plan on asking Him in the future. Simultaneous to this, there are quite a number of us (myself included) who have had terminal illness’ and gotten a glimpse of the other side. So if the healing of my spleen and the subsequent disappearance of my lymphoma, the awareness given to young children of things happening several rooms away while they were undergoing surgery are all fairy tales then I heartily believe in fairy tales.

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  76. Howie
    You say ‘Both Zeus and Thor are mythical deities whereas the God of Judaism, Christianity and Islam entered human history.
    Allegedly, as we have no first hand accounts from the supposed time of Jesus, just many after. I think the earliest from Paul approx 40 years after.
    I personally give no more weight to the argument for Jesus being the son of God than I do for Thor or Zeus.
    Do I believe Jesus existed? Possibly. Do I believe he was born of a virgin birth and was the son of a God, absolutely not. It’s so obvious to me and many others that religion is nothing more than a hugely embellished story, a fabrication of the facts, centuries in the making.

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    • When is a grape beyond reach? The answer is not in the Physical but in the Spiritual by the Spirit, for trying to reach it by the mind only makes it to be the story of the fox & the sour grapes. St. Augustine trying to contemplate the unity of God in the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit walking along the shores of the Mediterranean Sea saw a small lad trying to empty the waters into a hole dug on the sea side & when Augustine appraised the child of its impossibility he was told by the lad -”the same way you try to contemplate God”. The answer is very simple, understand God by the Spirit & not the mind, for the Holy Spirit distinguishes the false spirits as well, unto the false religions & their gods, their stories in the wickedness & gay relations speak their truth, even through the mouth of the Caesar, therein is all the difference.

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      • Abey.
        You may as well have just written ‘blah blah blah’.
        Let’s get to the nitty gritty shall we. Tell me why your God is the one true God and why everyone else, either atheist or of different faith is wrong.
        I would say in the vast majority of cases your religious choice is determined by geography and the religious beliefs of your parents.
        Abey, we’re you born in a predominantly Christian society and were your parents Christian?

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        • When you see Him you will believe Him, but will you to your attitude? for you speak of things you know not, like the scribes who wanted proof of God & the only proof that was & is given is the sign of Jonah, & to know that, you need to get unto the Bible & read it earnestly, instead of saying blah—the sign of ignorance. To begin with try to understand your own name Andy short for Andrew. Moreover to your self pride in the name Atheist but abound with superstitions of some sort or another & that not only makes yourself contrary but hypocritical, like those scribes. The word Atheist in itself is deceiving for – too many gods have led to no god, but its shadows remain, that of the devil.

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      • Yes we do have first hand accounts of Jesus. Portions of Mark’s Gospel have been located in cave 5 of the Dead Sea Scrolls; which was sealed by an earthquake in 31 AD so certain of these quotes probably date to the time when Jesus walked the earth. Also we have tomb inscriptions at a cemetery just outside Jerusalem dating as far back as 34 AD as well as Quotes of both Tertullian and Justin Martyr from a now lost Acts of Pilate document which was stored in the Roman archives. Additionally the often maligned quote from Josephus now seems to have been a direst quote from a lost epistle from the Biblical figure Cleopas. It would seem that Luke also used this epistle as a reference.

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        • It is interesting to know from the findings of the dead sea scrolls were written on Papyrus but once of the item, the only item, found written on Copper plate was in relation to the Arc of the Covenant said to predate the papyrus writings points to the truth of the Arc before the Babylonian invasion to that of Jeremiah mentioned in 2 Maccabees2.

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  77. Does the existence of a man named Jesus prove his divinity? I’m afraid not. Unless Jesus appears again we will never know if he was who he said he was. My atheism comes from looking at the world we live in, is it a great design? Not really. Many places either too hot or too cold with lack of provisions to sustain human life. Countless natural disasters from earthquakes to tsunamis and an ever present threat of annihilation from a meteor strike. Not the greatest design.

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    • Andy G – Of course the existence of a man named Jesus doesn’t prove His divinity. But isn’t that a question for another site? Can we at least admit that the man named Jesus did exist and was not the concoction of combining accounts of Horus, Mithra, Dionysius, etc? I vividly recall when William Lane Craig tried to corner Frank Zindler into responding to the teleological argument that Zindler responded by saying that it had been proven that Daniel did not write Daniel. This is the same approach that you are taking – if you get cornered, just change the subject . As to where your atheism comes from, I seriously doubt that it comes from a serious investigation of Intelligent Design as you claim. I would like to know what sort of relationship you had with your parents. It has been determined that children with either a deceased, missing or tyrannical father figure ultimately have no concept by which they can perceive of God. Thus the right frontal temporal portion of their brain does not properly function. This is not to say that you are stupid but rather that explaining a worshipful experience to you is like trying to explain a great symphony or concert to someone who has never heard music.

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      • Howie: The main reason as to why Zindler came to his conclusions were because the Prophecies of Daniel were/are found to be too accurate, cause imperfection cannot grasp perfection being void of the Biblical words “Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is”

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        • Abey – In a different setting the finding of the late linguistic scholar Gleason Archer would be applicable here since he determined that specific terms used in Daniel were outdated before the end of the Persian captivity thus a later date would be impossible. But I still maintain that Zindler made this comment because he was trapped and wanted to change the subject. And that is where I think Andy G is doing – looking to change the subject. Acharya’s nonsense hasn’t added up because she cannot produce documentation to back up her lies. We can debate the Deity of Christ, the dating of Daniel and a whole bunch of other points elsewhere. But lets stick to the subject. Can we at least admit that the Horus, Mithra. etc. theory is baseless?

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      • max.Wright says:

        “Thus the right frontal temporal portion of their brain does not properly function”

        LOL.

        “Religion doesn’t have a ‘God spot’ as such, instead it’s embedded in a whole range of other belief systems in the brain that we use every day.”

        http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1160904/Research-brains-God-spot-reveals-areas-brain-involved-religious-belief.html

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    • Hi Andy,

      The divinity of Christ is established all throughout the Bible. It takes actually reading and studying the Scripture to experience this.

      Furthermore I find it interesting that you, like several others profess atheism as if you have considered the entire universe of possibilities and examined them scientifically, when you have not in reality. If you are a man of logic, science and reason then you would agree that the universe we live in is so vast and we the most advanced scientific observation has only observed less then .001% of the entire universe, right? So at that point, how can you possibly say God does not exists, when we do not have any data on over 99% of the universe that surrounds us? Clearly, on pure rational thought and logic, it would be foolish to proclaim God does not exist anywhere in this universe because you do not have the data to support such a claim. What you can only conclude is that in your limited existence in a very tiny sliver of the universe you have not encountered any evidence of God’s existence. And that would make you an agnostic, not an atheist.

      And as I have asked other professing atheists who have observed the world we live in scientifically – please provide the scientifically proven explanation for the origin of matter. I look forward to your response.

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  78. http://www.space.com/20710-stephen-hawking-god-big-bang.html
    Science doesn’t know every answer regarding the birth of the universe and I don’t claim that it does. But claiming this lack of knowledge means that we have a divine creator is just laughable. I posted the link above for your perusal.
    I had a very good relationship with my parents and still do, in fact they are both now employed by me and myself and my family live only a kilometre away so no joy there I’m afraid.
    Sorry if I’ve been off topic. Regarding the claims in the Zeitgeist documentary I found the whole production extremely lacking in real evidence and thought the makers doctored accounts to fit their agenda.
    You cannot say that the divinity of Christ is established throughout the bible as u cannot use the bible as evidence. The bible was written by man, over many many years. Stories were exaggerated and also made up.
    I think the argument that we haven’t even explored 0.1 percent of the universe is a very poor one. If god is real he is either incompetent or he just doesn’t care. What will happen if you ask god to perform a miracle for you?nothing.
    What if we all tried. Let’s get everyone on the planet to pray at the same time. Let’s all pray for almighty god to show us some compassion and cure cancer. Something easily within gods capabilities. Would it work? I’m betting no.
    Just because u want to believe something doesn’t mean it’s true. But if it makes u feel better and if it makes u a better human being I really don’t have a problem with it. I think if everyone adopted a few of the teachings of the bible the world would be a better place, of course there are other teaching that would make it a terrible place. That’s why we probably have something inbetween.

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    • You run after a decease & catch it, he cures you, then you run after the decease again & so on(calling it the liberty to do so). What is the use of the cure but in vain & this understood in the Spiritual makes much sense.

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  79. Thank you for this information it has been incredibly helpful in my studies as I am currently taking a History of Christianity Class in Seminary. Thanks for all of your hard work!

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  80. The similarities between Horus and Jesus are quite thought provoking. Horus is from a time when “writings” or “messages” were etched into stone, apparently 1000′s of years ago. Is it possible that these were inscriptions of prophecies that were recorded for the purposes of being passed down through time for the benefit of future generations, to be translated into later versions of expression, presenting itself today in our modern method of understanding as The Holy Bible ? Perhaps a prophetic projection of whom we, in modern times call Jesus ? Is there any historic evidence that could support this ? (The Bible does record many prophecies).

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  81. I know there are many gullible people out there, but I know that I only thought of the Davinci Code as an interesting entertaining movie that took a lot of the stories just as those above and made it’s own book, and later movie. It’s all about the money.

    I personally walked away from the church and the bible. When the pastor said that when a Jehova Witness showed up at my door, to just close the door on their faces, I was turned off at the contradiction of what is said about God loving everyone.
    I was also bothered by all those dates that we have set for certain holidays and preachings and such, when there is supposedly no mention of them in the bible. And I never understood how we got Jesus out of Yahweh or Immanuel. They say translation, but why change the name of someone so important? Is Yahweh or Immanuel really so hard to say? So it gets me to thinking what else they’ve changed. And yes, I do believe that the stories in the bible have been changed each time it is rewritten and translated.
    It is my understanding that the oldest and only book that still has not changed is the Hebrew texts.

    There is so much that many comments have said. But lastly, a translation of the time of Yahweh/Immanuel’s birth says that by the description of the conditions at that time, it falls somewhere in the Fall/Autom Solstice. How did December 25th come to be chosen? I’m guessing it’s because the masses need a specific day to feel secure and comfortable that something is true.

    I think I’ll find a copy of this Zeitgeist and watch it. Sounds boring though, like a documentary style. But I do look forward to another entertaining tale by Dan Brown.

    Oh, and I almost forgot. There are many tales about a man fitting Jesus description in their countries, like India, China, and heaven knows where else. I wish someonw would find the sources and stories. i be that would be a good read.

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    • Da Vinci a freemason, whose two supposidely unfinished paintings that of The last Supper & Mona lisa both of which in the finished sense are to Imitations, by the last supper painting is the projection of Auther & his knights when in the original it concerns the Lords Army come in the Post Advent of Pentecost & the other Mona Lisa or Madonna to a virgin, the false one against the Glorious one in revelations.. Modern Freemasonry arose out of that Ancient Iniquity as a corruption of the Temple to the Prophecy unto the king of Tyre unto the satanic attributes spoken unto him, Established at the time of QE2 (a clue to that finishing of the Madonna painting) by Francis Beacon. . All of these is but to know the Manifestation of that “Enmity” put by God between the Serpent & the Woman at Eden between the false & the true. Freemasonry’s secret beliefs are but to the Ancient beliefs of Egypt off the adversary invariably to death. So much so for that “innocent” Davinci code.

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      • Abey,
        Call me blonde, but I have no idea what you just said.
        Would you rephrase it in more complete thoughts and separate all those stories into different paragraphs? Some of the names you mentioned sound interesting, but what you have up there makes no sense. Sounds like a paragraph out of those cryptic books, or Legalese :O)
        Thanks.

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        • Standing on the outside is not knowing what is on the inside, Except by the Spirit., & to this there are the deceiving ones too, which is but to turn to your own words & see whether it makes any sense to the truth of life , base it on its basis, unless off course you dropped from the sky which is as good as saying “Sitting crosslegged to chanting “Love & Fresh Air”.

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  82. PS – I got to lauging and there are so many comments that I did not read them all, but, did any one mention that Mary’s so call virgin birth was actually an alien abduction?
    I really love those Alien Theorists. They actually make more sense than the bible does. I know many of them are made up stories not backed up by facts but are good for ratings, but still, they do make more sense about the creation of this planet and it makes me more at ease in understanding Where the Heck did Adam and Eve’s kids find their wives if they were the only ones and the first creations of God?
    Just another reason for me not to put my faith on that book that has been used by many to commit many atrocities against human kind. Yesterday it was the Indians, the heathens, the witches, the blacks, today it’s the Gay/Lesbian peoples.
    The only thing I know for sure and truly believe is that the DivineOneness temple and love lies in my heart and there is no room to hate. In fact, as one Christian professor told me, Pagans are the only people he knows that walk the path closest to what is considered the true Christian faith, to do no harm and to love all.

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    • Honestly FR if Jesus came back to today, his own religion would not recognize him. They would call him the Anti-Christ…
      Here is a PBS article about Domnican Friar who became the Indians defender and he said this “The cause by which the Christians have been driven to kill and destroy so many—such an infinite number of souls—has been simply to get the Indians’ gold.
      - Bartolomé de Las Casas

      http://www.pbs.org/kcet/when-worlds-collide/people/bartolome-de-las-casas.html
      Sadly it may not be gold today, but i feel this same spirit from some on this page, believe my way or perish!!
      Love is truly the answer!!!

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  83. We are living in an age of evidence and understanding, when everything is being questioned, studied, researched and investigated. I make this comment with all due respect to the educators and the educated, the scholars of history and the many religions they have studied. It is simply incredible that with all the historical references and evidence to the contrary, “uneducated, faith believing” Christians have comprehended, and have never been swayed from their belief : THAT JESUS CHRIST IS NOW AND EVER SHALL BE THE ONE AND ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD All attempts to discredit Jesus have failed. The question that should rather be asked is : WHY is it IMPOSSIBLE to disprove Jesus, because, make no mistake, it is IMPOSSIBLE. You can gain every degree under the sun and still face the same uphill battle in your attempt to give credibility to the ridiculously foolish, absolutely ludicrous, assumption, that Jesus is a copy, and all the other rubbish that comes to light – COPY – Really??? Allow me to shed a little bit of light on Christian tenacity. The belief in things unseen!
    I am a Believer, and this is the evidence of my conviction – the REVELATION of God the Father as a Person, who He Himself, made Himself known supernaturally to me, who communicates with me on a daily basis, whom I have come to know personally within the natural order of my life. This absolute knowledge of God ensures that there is nothing and no one on the face of the earth that can convince me that JESUS is not the Son of God, and the opportunity to know Him is freely available to anyone to discover for themselves. When you seek Him, as the Bible instructs, He will show up, and there will be no doubt in you as to the validity of His existence. It is painfully clear that people who are quick to deny God, Jesus and His Holy Spirit, has not taken the time to find out what or who He says.that HE IS.
    Some of the post above show that some of the people may have studied the Bible but certainly do not understand its message.
    { Isaiah 44: 24-25 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;}
    Another scripture tells that God will not always strive with man.
    Let us reason together then: would It not be wiser to consider the evidence before you right now –
    1. that Jesus is at the helm of Christianity,
    2. that Christianity is a message based on faith,
    3. that it is one of the oldest belief’s,
    4. that it has the most followers 2000+ years on,
    5. that it is only ever increasing and growing.
    6. THAT YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND IT without revelation, which does not make it is “false”
    7. That you will live but a few years, and 100 years on, no one will remember you.
    7. That you have a soul, and where will it end up?
    Do you truly believe that Jesus can be so easily “disregarded? Is your disregard based on fact or is it and “educated” guess, and NOT a WISE one at that.
    What if there was just a small chance that the Bible is True, is it worth the risk not knowing?

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  84. Bore da/Good morning and Hi to all.
    Is the Bible the work of God, or the Work of Idiot Evangelists. (Not my words! Check out the footnote.)
    As a researcher of history, and my subject matter Hanes Prydeinig (British History), and Early Christianity. My goal has been for the last five decades is to find the truth about the man Yeshu or Yeshua (Jesus), the Gospels, the primitive church, its hierarchy, and the early church-fathers. A quest which has not diminished with time, in fact the same eagerness for knowledge and historical truth, is still as bright today as it was all those years ago.
    In today’s high-tech society with its computers, the search for knowledge is virtually free, I still find so-call Christian unwilling to take the time and look up authentic historical truth, concerning the birth of the Christian religion, the New Testament (NT), or Christianity as a whole.
    The NT of today is a copy of the original made by Eusebius of Caesarea (aka the Liar or deceiver), on the orders of the Pagan Roman Emperor, Constantine I, at the first Council of Nicaea, in 325. The NT was re-translated by a pagan born scholar, who converted to Christianity c. 366, and became a zealot Christian devotee. His name was Jerome (347-420), who was commissioned by the murderous Damasus I*, bishop of Rome in 382, and was completed (NT) by Jerome in 405. Jerome’s copy was called the versio vulgata (English: Vulgate), which became the official Bible of the Church of Rome. New versions of the NT are being made even today,
    What are the basic beliefs of Christianity?
    God.
    Jesus.
    Nazareth.
    The Resurrection.
    Cross of Crucifixion.
    On the question of God, one is directed to the Science, to the creation of the World, which occurred some 4.5 billion years ago, with the big bang (science jargon), and not the 6,000 years as attributed by ancient and not so ancient church scholars. Everything attributed to God in the Bible, can be put-dawn to Nature (weather, earthquakes, and any other natural occurrence, etc.), and all can be debunked by science!
    Jesus, there is no written evidence by contemporary writers of the 1st century, referring to a person named Jesus (Yeshua) outside of the NT. However, one scholar (G.R.S. Mead) has proposed in his work, Did Jesus Live 100 BC? Other scholars say Mead, may not be far off the mark, as there is evidence of about Jewish Messiah claimants from 167 BCE, and in every century following right up to the modern day. the 21st century messaih is Goel Ratzon born 1951.However, if right it would put every thing in the Bible as fiction As I have aforementioned, the NT was first written some 3 centuries after the supposed death of a supposed saviour. Check it out!
    Nazareth did not exist until the early 4th century, Josephus the Jewish scholar in his work, mentions most places in Judaea in the 1st century, whoever, Nazareth is not mentioned. Other scholar of the 1st or 2nd centuries, do not mention Nazareth. Check it out!
    The Resurrection is nowhere to be see in the Old Greek NT, biblical scholars state that Mark 16:1-8 are the original text, whereas, verses 9-20 are forgeries/interpolation. There are more than 14,000 errors/interpolations between the oldest known Greek NT (Codex Sinaiticus/Sinai Bible, which was re-discovered in 1845) and the modern NT. Check it out!
    Martyred on a Cross! Well the Catholic Encyclopedia states that the Cross was adopted by the Universal (Catholic) Church in the mid 6th century (more than six centuries after the supposed death of the supposed saviour), prior to that date the so-call ancient church-father acknowledged the cross as a Pagan symbol, along with other symbols, such as the Chi-Rho. Check it all out, see below**!
    The old Greek NT states that this Jesus was executed on a Stauros, and not a Cross. Scholars are unanimous that the Greek word Stauros means a Pale or an upright stake, and not a Cross, which was translated by the church in the 6th century or even later. Check it out!
    The NT is probably today the most contradictory book ever written, this is most probably due to the amount of forgeries/interpolations amassed between the pages, etc.

    * Marcellinus, a pagan scholar wrote about the murders committed by Damasus I, bishop of Rome (366-384). On how the hire thugs of Damasus I, left 137 dead, the dead were the followers of Ursinus, a rival bishop, who managed to escape the carnage.[The Oxford Dictionary of Popes, pp. 32-33, by J.N.D. Kelly] However, the Roman Church made Damascus a saint, and sent Ursinus into oblivion as antipope (366-367).
    Below is a quote from the same pagan scholar who gave posterity vital information on Damascus and the early years of Christianity.
    “no wild beasts are so hostile to men as Christians are to one another.”
    The Pagan historian and writer Ammianus Marcellinus (b. 325/330-d. after 391)

    **…Although in the fifth century the cross began to appear on public monuments, it was not for a century afterwards that the figure on the cross was shown; and not until the close of the fifth, or even the middle of the sixth century, did it appear without disguise. But from the sixth century onward we find many images—not allegorical, but historical and realistic of the crucified Saviour…[Catholic Encyclopedia 1913 under Cross and Crucifix and then under the heading -Later development of the crucifix—or:
    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Cross_and_Crucifix

    From the heading : Is the Bible the work of God, or the Work of Idiot Evangelists
    The canonical gospels are further discredited by numerous historical evidences of alterations made at the order of the Eastern (Byzantine) emperor, Anastasius in 506 CE. Which was reported by Victor bishop of Tunis, who wrote: ‘Messala V.C. Consule, Constantinopoli, jubente Anastasio Imperatore, santa evangelia, tanquam ab idiotis evangelistis composita, reprehenduntur et emendantur’. Translated: ‘The Illustrious Messala, by the command of the emperor Anastasius, the Holy Gospels, as having been written by idiot evangelists, are hereby censured and corrected’ [Quoted in Histoire critique de Jésus-Christ ou Analyse raisonnée des Évangiles (1770) by Baron d'Holbach, p. 20. The Diegesis, by Rev. R. Taylor, p. 118, 1894 edition. In the scholarly work: An Account of the Printed Text of the Greek New Testament; with Remarks on the Revision upon Critical Principles, p. 229 (in footnote), by Samuel P. Tregelles LL.D., 1854 ed.; also in the modern work: In His Name, pp. 449-450, by E. Christopher Reyes]

    I hope you find my comments of interest.

    Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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    • Hi Jero! Wow, thanks for clearing that up for us! And congratulations on fifty years of debunking Christianity! Your arguments and documentation are obviously rock-solid, so I’m not going to question it. And you’re right, we don’t need God anymore, because we’ve got science! Using the scientific method, God has been conclusively disproven in the laboratory, in experiments which are easily repeatable and verifiable.

      Keep up the good work!

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  85. Prynhawn da/Good afternoon and Hi all.

    I found this this information concerning Horus v’s Jesus, on the Carnegie Mellon University website, and found it very interesting, with full citations from academics, etc.

    Life events shared by Horus and Jesus.
    Stories from the life of Horus had been circulating for centuries before Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). If any copying occurred by the writers of the Egyptian or Christian religions, it was the followers of Jesus who incorporated into his biography the myths and legends of Horus, not vice-versa. Author and theologian Tom Harpur studied the works of three authors who have written about ancient Egyptian religion: Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834), Gerald Massey (1828-1907) and Alvin Boyd Kuhn (1880-1963). Harpur incorporated some of their findings into his book “Pagan Christ.” He argued that all of the essential ideas of both Judaism and Christianity came primarily from Egyptian religion. “[Author Gerald] Massey discovered nearly two hundred instances of immediate correspondence between the mythical Egyptian material and the allegedly historical Christian writings about Jesus. Horus indeed was the archetypal Pagan Christ.”
    [http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/jksadegh/A%20Good%20Atheist%20Secularist%20Skeptical%20Book%20Collection/Parallels_between_Jesus_and_Horus_an_Egyptian_God.pdf]

    On the subject of God the Sun or Sun God, I remember as a school boy at Caledfryn (Hard-hill) reading the works of Gildas (c. 500-570), which was tradition at our school, because Gildas was a local lad, made good, so to say, even if it was 1,500 years ago.
    I found one word in a passage that at the time I felt has a spelling mistake, however, my history teacher indicated that it was correct! Anyway, Gildas work was a scathing attack on the Brython (Briton) kings, whom he says, ruining Prydain (Britain) at the time of the Germanic (later became known as the English) onslaught/invasion to our isle. It was also written (c. 550) before Catholicism had reach these isles, as Gildas was a cleric of the Celtic Church. Below is extract from the work of Gildas, I have taken the liberty of highlighting the single word I found puzzling all those years ago, in addition, I have also put in square brackets [] the date of the emperor reign. Gildas wrote:
    8. Meanwhile these islands, stiff with cold and frost, and in a distant region of the world, remote from the visible sun, received the beams of light, that is, the holy precepts of Christ, the true Sun, showing to the whole world his splendour, not only from the temporal firmament, but from the height of heaven, which surpasses every thing temporal, at the latter part, as we know, of the reign of Tiberius Caesar[14-37 CE], by whom his religion was propagated without impediment, and death threatened to those who interfered with its professors.
    [On The Ruin of Britain (De Excidio Britanniae) by Gildas, translation by J.A. Giles. http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/1949/pg1949.html

    What Gildas is saying is that Christianity first arrived in Britain in the reign of Tiberius, long before Rome. Trader from the eastern Mediterranean, such as the Phoenicians, Greeks, etc., had been trading with Prydeinig (British) for its Tin and Copper, since before 2000 BCE.
    N.B Students of the Venerable Bede (673-735) will undoubtedly know, that Bede in his early work, plagiarise the work of Gildas. However, the laurel went to Bede, history is written by the victor per se.

    Jero Jones Mab Cymru

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  86. Bore da/Good morning and Hi to all
    Amendment to my last mail comment, dated 29 Awst/August 2013.
    Sorry, I forgot to check the highlighted word before sending my comment.
    The word in question is SUN, which, as a boy I thought it should have read: Christ, the true SON. However, Gildas in his time refer only to the splendour of the SUN!
    Sorry again.

    Jero Jones Mab Cymru

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  87. You either believe in the Bible and its interpretation of Jesus or don’t. I would, however, seriously question any fundamental religion that has so many versions operating all over the world. Look at an–major city in the USA–in a square mile, you can find 20 different versions of *Jesus* and the word,
    so to speak.

    For me, I don’t need any proof, or bible. As far as I am concerned, *Love God and Love Thy Neighbor As Yourself* is all I need to know and in my living of it, it’s one and the same… The rest of it is dogma. And that’s a lot of dog …..!

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    • Hi Prynhawn da/Good afternoon, to you all.
      I think Anna Ruiz, has asked a very good question, on whether Jesus is a copy of God from more ancient religions. After decades of researching early Christianity, I am cautious of anything that the Romans have left posterity, even our concept of what the word Pagan means. The Roman church adopted it from the Latin vernacular for religions outside of Christianity, and made these religions heretical. Pagan or Paganism are not words I use, especially in public, out of the respect for other religions that are not Christian. Below is the real definition of pagan:
      Pagan (n)
      Late 14c., from Late Latin paganus ‘pagan,’ in classical Latin ‘villager, rustic; civilian, non-combatant’ noun use of adjective meaning ‘of the country, of a village,’ from pagus ‘country people; province, rural district,’ originally ‘district limited by markers,’ thus related to pangere ‘to fix, fasten,’ from PIE root *pag- ‘to fix’ (see pact). As an adjective from early 15c.[etymonline.com/index.php?term=pagan]

      Christianity is a religion that parallels those more ancient religions, which cannot be a coincidence, like the two main Christian festivals that revolve around the (March) equinox (Easter), and the winter solstice (Christmas), which were pagan ceremonies or festivals celebrating the rebirth and death of their deities. Which were adopted by the church in the 4th century to gain more converts, etc.

      On the Bible, was this Jesus the first to die on a stake (Stauros = Greek for upright stake or Pale, and did not mean cross in antiquity, the cross* (see foot note) was a pagan symbol till the Roman church adopted it in the mid 6th century), the answer is NO, many of Jesus’ contemporaries as claimants for the Jewish Messiah, befell the same fate of being crucified of the Stauros (Stake), and there were many wannabe Messiahs in the 1st century CE, in fact the record of Jewish Messiah runs from c. 164 BCE right to the present day, with Jesus being number six for the first century CE.
      Further on the Bible, this is were Anna and myself differ, the Christian Bible or the New Testament as we now it today, stems from the amalgam (over 200 different gospels were around from the late part of 2nd) of gospels, out of which the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were chosen at the Council of Nicaea, in 325 CE, which was dictated by the Roman emperor, Constantine the Great. Scholar are unanimous that the gospels are heavily interpolated, which came to light from ancient writings and the re-discovery of the Codex Sinaiticus or the Sinai Bible in 1845, but that is another story!

      Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.(Leviticus 19:18—19:34 NIV) which is from the Jewish Old Testament, with other sources coming from the Talmud, and is not an original Christian saying!

      Raskin, a young scholar produced a paper in 2002, which implies that this man Yeschu/Jesus was born in 2 BCE and died in 47 CE. Now that has left the cat amongst the pigeons, so to say.[http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/RaskinCrucified.pdf] For his citation in his paper, he uses the church-fathers, Irenaeus of Lugdunum (Lyon) and Tertullian’s dates for the birth of Yeschu/Jesus, and the paper is a very interesting read.
      footnote.
      *…Although in the fifth century the cross began to appear on public monuments, it was not for a century afterwards that the figure on the cross was shown; and not until the close of the fifth, or even the middle of the sixth century, did it appear without disguise….[Catholic Encyclopedia (1913), under Cross and Crucifix, then under: Later Development of the Crucifix]

      The very best regards

      Jero Jones Mab Cymru

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      • You elucidate my point well, Jero Jones Map Cymru.

        I think Christianity is not supposed to be a thesis that has footnotes that can be verified or proven by historical accuracy and veracity.

        It was to have been a way of seeing that we are our brothers/sister keeper, and if there was a historical Jesus, perhaps he was the first man who willingly, knowingly died for love. For me it’s all an allegory.

        Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and others came to bring folks who were divided together, they also were crucified (with modern technology–bullets). We didn’t need to make any one person the only son of God who walks on water and was resurrected. That’s just like the modern Sai Baba of India who manifested gold Rolex’s and ash to *prove* his powers.

        When will Christians get over this childishness and get to the heart and soul of Christianity… love that is willing to lay down one’s life, and the peace that passeth understanding?

        If the historical Christ really was able to perform miracles, I don’t think that he cares whether or not I believe it. And i can bet my life on it, he wouldn’t call me blasphemous. That’s just for religious fanatics. Christian or Muslim.

        Sadly, there’s a lot of that going around the world these days.

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        • Hi Anna,

          What do you base your view of Christianity on? We can only discern Christianity today from the written word – The Bible. Jesus quoted The Old Testament or made reference to part of verses close to 100 times in the Gospels.

          Comparing Martin Luther King Jr. to Jesus is an insult to King and Jesus both. Why? Because Martin Luther King Jr. worshiped Jesus Christ. Here is what he said at the Montgomery Bus Boycott in 1955:

          “I want it to be known throughout Montgomery and throughout this nation that we are Christian people. We believe in the Christian religion. We believe in the teachings of Jesus.”

          King never claimed to be God and believed Jesus was God. So you dishonor his legacy by trying to cast him as some type of deity when his entire life’s work was based on the opposite – being a servant of Jesus Christ.

          As for Ghandi – he was a racist who very openly supported India’s caste system and support the racist apartheid system in South Africa (where Ghandi lived for a time). In his correspondence to public officials he frequently referred to Black Africans as “kaffirs” (the N-Word in South Africa) and expressed his disdain for them as “uncivilized” and not on the same level as himself. You can find this information here.

          Here is quote from Ghandi published in the Indian Opinion newspaper on September 4, 1904:

          “Under my suggestion, the Town Council (of Johannesburg) must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians I must confess I feel most strongly. It think it is very unfair to the Indian population, and it is an undue tax on even the proverbial patience of my countrymen.” (source).

          Ironically, Ghandi also led “sexual cleansing” movements in India to eradicate homosexual activity in society (despite the fact that his wife stated Ghandi himself was bisexual). So again, to place this man on the level of Jesus Christ is blasphemous and an insult to Christians. Ghandi has nothing to do with the Christian faith or Jesus Christ.

          Jesus Christ does care if you believe in Him. It is the most important question any person will ever have to answer in their lives. Who do you say Jesus is? If you say He was just a wise teacher, who taught peace and love -then you have missed the point of His Words entirely.

          In the book of John, Jesus healed a man who had been blind from birth. The man went and told people about the great miracle Jesus performed – a feat only the Messiah could do. The man was thrown out and banned from the temple for his testimony and ostracized from the community. Jesus then sought him out and said this:

          Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. 39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

          Do not be blind to the true message of Jesus – that He is the Son of God who came to earth to give His life for you and take the punishment for the sins you have willingly and openly committed all your life. And it is only by belief that you can receive that forgiveness and eternal life. This is Jesus’ message. if you continue to reject Jesus without even truly considering the Bible with an open heart, then you will fall deeper into darkness. But the book of James tells us that if we draw nigh to God, He will draw nigh to us. Don’t be hard-hearted to Jesus’ real message. Consider it, pray for understanding. Cry out to God to show you the answers to the questions that are still bothering you. You would not be here commenting on a Christian site if the faith of Christianity was totally meaningless to you.

          God says: Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

          Be reasonable and pray to God for sight to see and ears to hear. Your eternal destiny is at stake. God bless.

          How to Get to Heaven
          http://beginningandend.com/how-to-get-to-heaven/

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          • I don’t mean to offend thee, but thy tone is that of one that is called a fanatic of his religion.
            I beg to differ with you about what Jesus said. It is widely said that Jesus never wrote any account of his travels and messages. All those were written hundreds of years later by stories that were passed on by word of mouth. I am very personally familiar to what happens to those stories when a story teller decides to spread his words so that others may enjoy them. I quickly had to learn that it was better to shut up than try to get this person to state the facts and not make them so exaggerated to make the story sound greater. So, what proof is there that what is in that bible of yours really the word of God’s son.
            I’m sure you wouldn’t believe that there are people who can actually skip the chain of command and talk to God directly. No need to talk to their brother Jesus to get to the Father/Mother God. No I don’t believe Jesus said that no one can get to heaven except through him. Those words sound like words that a controlling few would use to create fear and to control the fact that you can’t do anything if they tell you not to because they are the messengers for God.
            I tend to think that the Old Testament was so screwed up that Jesus had to come and set you straight. Then, when he leaves, the New Testament is written and it too is so screwed up that Jesus is going to have to come back again to set you straight.
            Trust me, there is much that will be revealed soon. Just don’t close your mind to it and if you do, look deeper and ask yourself, who is really telling you what you think you believe in.
            The truth is going to scare the heck out of you.
            I’m sorry. I’m only here to read and learn about people’s thoughts and Ideas, but sometimes, just sometimes, the powers that be allow me and even push me to come and reveal tidbits of a greater message. If you find it within my words, good for you. If you don’t, that’s okay too.

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            • Hi FR,

              How is my tone that of a fanatic? I actually agreed with you. You raised valid and true points. I merely clarified that those things were carried out by the Roman Catholic church which is a political institution that actually killed many Bible believing Christians who disagreed with their doctrine and wanted freedom to read the Bible for themselves.

              And my question about race stands – if the Israelites, the prophets and Jesus are all brown peoples, why does this matter? What is the significance of this? I am just trying to ascertain what your point was.

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              • Beginning and End: Hi FR, I also wonder where the evidence is to support your claims about the Old and New testaments of the Bible being “screwed up.” This is a claim that has been made many times in this discussion thread. But again I ask – where is your evidence of this? If you are going to make such a strong charge you should at least be able to support it with some type of actual evidence.

                I am all faiths, and I am none.
                I made no claims to the validity of anything, just my thoughts on how all these claims make me feel and think. As to widely said, well,.. in this world of technology, Google, Bing, and all of those make access to information very quickly. Now I’m not saying they are true and factual. They are just for the most part, people expressing their ideas and opinions.

                The fanatic part was when you seemed to send your strong energy about your feelings on the bible. That is all. I did say I did not mean to offend thee as I have liked a lot of what you have said, and like you, I only want to make people think of there possibly being an alternative to the book that so many hold dear to their hearts. And I’m guessing now, that it includes you. I truly am sorry if I offended you. No harm meant. To cause distress in another, no matter how small is a harm to another and I am trying very hard to follow the faith by not harming any and all. Except the bugs. I ask for forgiveness each time I do since I know they are within their right because I have encroached on their land.

                And yes, there is more out there than any one knows, but the message is not to come out yet. As explained to me, humans are still too young in the stage of development to understand and accept certain truths.
                Who am I? I am all, and I am none. Just a messanger, just a listener, just a student, just a teacher.
                I answered your question about the color of skin. It really saddens me that so many fight over it. It was just curiosity to see what others answer. I’m sure many will quote what they have found where just as the links I sent you have stated that they speak the truth.
                There is only one truth, one religion, Love.
                Isn’t that what those that have died and come back say?

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                • “There is only one truth, one religion, Love.”

                  You do realize that this is an extremely fanatical statement right? Your spiritual belief, as you just described is as dogmatic, judgmental and fanatical as one can be. Do you not see the irony in this?

                  The New Age movement tries to be amorphous, non-judgmental and open to everything, but there are always roadblocks to that. We all judge. We all have moral absolutes. So trying to say we do not is just really not true as this conversation has already shown.

                  I took no offense to your challenge of the Bible’s accuracy. This article and this discussion thread have been filled with them as that is the topic at hand. If you look at the history in this thread, you will see that I welcome having an exchange of ideas on these issues. But the discussion is not compelling without some actual substantive evidence to support your claims.

                  I missed your response on the skin color issue. I still don’t follow as to what the point was in bringing it up. And I have not seen any disagreements about race of Biblical figures in this thread. Maybe I am just missing something here, but I still don’t really follow.

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                  • I claim no faith and no particular beliefs. I just like some better than others.
                    Even my military dog tag said “No Religious Preference”
                    I am not perfect. I do judge and I try to remind myself that it is wrong.
                    I am a work in progress. Always searching for the path that will be my own that will let me join once and for all with the DivineOneness (seems like the best neutral name I can find since I read a lot that God is neither male of female). The same as everyone else. It is true that the more you read the more you learn, the more you see things differently, maybe sometimes clearer. It is up to each individual to interpret what feels right for them because no one path is the same since we are all different (and yet, the same).
                    I do like to read about many different religions and for a while there I was trying to collect all the books that I could. Now I can digitally download them. I’m just sorry I can’t read some of the languages since I am sure I am missing something in the actual translation. Translating something from Spanish to English and vice versa has shown me that.
                    I am still reading. Still learning. Not sure if I will adapt one or another and claim it as my own. I’m thinking maybe Buddhism and go off to Tibet and study with the monks. That has a certain appeal. I also thought about becoming Jewish and see what I learn from their actual teachings. Much to learn.
                    But that is off the topic of this forum, but it is to let those who ask why I ask and why I say the things I say and ask.
                    Yes, I want links and connections to show the proven statements, but it is also nice to see what they are feeling inside too.
                    Oh, and you want to talk about judgemental? Wow, I’ve been reading the GnosticBible on and off and I can see why they were left out of the Bible. Very contradictory to the love thy neighbor idea that is throughout the teachings of Jesus. And the evidence to support this claim is in the Gnostic Bible of which there is too much for me to quote. And I thought I was a heretic :O)

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                  • Hi FR,

                    You just proclaimed that there was only ONE TRUTH and ONE RELIGION. That is a dogmatic, judgmental, fanatical statement. You also came to thread with a racial argument. The New Age movement wants to portray itself as a non-judgmental, free form type of belief but it’s not. All of its founders (particularly H.P. Blavatsky and Alice Bailey) had a very strong religious belief – in Satan.

                    Do not be deceived. I know you are searching for answers. but none of these belief systems you are looking into and experimenting with will solve the ultimate problem – your sin. It is our sin that has caused all of the pain in the world and in our own lives. It is sin that has separated us from the God who knows us and loves us. But we have to want and believe in Him to reconcile that relationship.

                    You say it’s wrong to judge. Is it really? If a man kidnaps and assaults a 5 year old child, isn’t that ALWAYS Wrong? Under what circumstance would you say “I just can’t judge that person’s actions”? It’s always evil. Rape is always evil. These things should be judged. To pretend we have no moral foundation is to deny the last bit of light we have from God when we’re born – the human conscience. You don’t want to abandon than that.

                    Jesus Christ said:

                    9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. – John 10:9-11.

                    The thief is Satan. And Satan’s goal is to delude people to ignore their sin and think they can forge their own path to “oneness” or “bliss”, nirvana or whatever you choose to call it. But we can’t. We cannot work or earn our way to salvation. Jesus does not tell us to do any action or work. We just simple have to believe in the work He did. And that was laying His life down for the world. Taking the punishment for our sins so that we could have the chance to have eternal life in Heaven.

                    Do you at least agree that by the Bible’s standards, you are a sinner? Even if you believe the Bible to be fiction, would you agree that you have broken the commands of Jesus Christ? I know I have. I have fully acknowledged that I am indeed a sinner and I am sure a far worse one than you. And God is judging us for this. God is perfectly moral and Holy and will not let any crime we commit in this life slide. No level of enlightenment or book reading will help us on judgment day. Our sins, both yours and mind will be punished. The only difference is who will take the punishment. Will you take your own punishment for the sins you have willingly committed all your life or will you be declared innocent, with your sins placed on Jesus Christ the Savior? This is what the Bible is about. Jesus Christ said:

                    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. – John 3:17-21.

                    Yes, Jesus does have a Divine Light, but because of our fallen state, it shines the light on our SIN. This is what we need to be “awakened” too. We are not good people. We are sinners who are at risk of suffering the wrath of God. But people don’t want to talk about it (and even if your own statements, you seem to be ready to try every belief possible except Biblical Christianity). We’d all rather live our lives not thinking about these types of things. This is why there is so much hostility to Christianity. It is the only religion in the world that says that we are not good people, we’re all going to hell and there’s no trick or action we can do to change that. But through faith in Christ, we can be forgiven of all.

                    So again I hope and pray that you consider God’s love and offer of free forgiveness and eternal life and not just write off the Bible as “all screwed up” without even reading and truly examining it with an open heart. In this article I have shown that the Bhagavad gita was indeed completely changed in the 8th century (as stated by Hindu scholars). Yet despite this, you have no qualms and are excited to read the Vedas. Where are the questions about the authorship of Hindu texts? how do you know that Buddhist ideas were “not screwed up” over time? You seem to have total acceptance of these faiths. What I suggest is taking the same open heart and enthusiasm to the Bible. Because it is the only one that will deal with the source problem we all share. And from there, we can move towards true peace, true happiness and yes, true oneness, through Jesus Christ.

                    And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
                    26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. – John 1:19-26.

                    I am praying for you to know the forgiveness, love and true peace that we can find in Jesus Christ.

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            • Hi FR,

              I also wonder where the evidence is to support your claims about the Old and New testaments of the Bible being “screwed up.” This is a claim that has been made many times in this discussion thread. But again I ask – where is your evidence of this? If you are going to make such a strong charge you should at least be able to support it with some type of actual evidence.

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      • According to the personal diary of Constantine immorality out of the heathen beliefs rose drastically at that time & so found it best to promote Christianity & it worked, immorality came down & the world especially Europe developed until recently when Christianity was set aside, back to those heathen belief come as new wine come through that latter rain stuff hidden in new age beliefs exemplified in the mid 1900′s to the great Apostasy Prophesied & the result- back to the days before Constantine in all Immorality even unto “Spiritual Sodom & Egypt’. There is not needed much research in this but any fool can see that Immorality is inversely proportional to Christ & Christianity. To these days of the gods of Apostasy in all those deceitful Avatars to the Immorality one has just to look at the symbols & Icons (off course freemasonic) within the supreme court of Tel Aviv in Israel(a people gathered in His wrath) to the leavens of the law & what is seen on the overall -”The Golden Calf” that which Israel of old made out of the beliefs of Egypt & its gods are what are revealed in the truth of the plagaiarizing -the hindu ones to hinduism today- Lo the beliefs of Ancient Egypt.

          (Quote)

      • Thank you for such an informative article. I’m always looking for everyone’s ideas and thoughts. To you, and all other researchers. I don’t remember reading anything about Jesus being white. I always thought that was a stereotype when I’ve read many stories of colored people in Israel at the supposed time of Jesus. I found two interesting articles. One deals with old days and one deals with modern days. Still, they also raise the same question. Me, I’m not Jewish, I’m not Christian, I’m not white, I am of Hispanic heritage but do have white skin and have enjoyed the privileges of whiteness while my dark brothers and sisters have felt the bite of discrimination. It really is sad, this world we have lived in. Yes, Paganism has been slandered for ever, yet, I’d rather call myself a Pagan than anything else.
        And yes, I’ve read about Ēostre or Ostara and other dieties that have been cited as having been converted by the so called Christian communities to make them more acceptable and integrate the so called Pagans into their fold. I also read that Joan of Ark was a pagan made Angelic by the Catholics to convert the Pagans. Also to way back stories of when God was a woman, which I like the most and make more sense. But of course, you’ll have the men citing how violent they and the pagan culture was with their sacrifices to their dieties. But I guess Catholics murdering in the name of God and Jesus is not the same.
        http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/black-matrix/26769-how-jews-became-white.html
        http://popchassid.com/10-photos-to-remind-you-that-jews-dont-fit-into-a-stereotype-and-never-have/
        I look forward to all the answers and information that will follow this post.

          (Quote)

        • Hi FR,

          Thanks for many of your comments. Yes many of the details in your post are true with respect to the Roman Catholic church. It is an amalgamation of many pagan faiths and parts of Christianity. However it has little in common with Biblical Christianity and the Vatican itself is a political organization. When you look at the history of Bible believing Christians, they were the primary victims of the killings during times like the Inquisition.

          As for the Israelites being Caucasians, it is true they were not. But why does this matter? What is the significance of the Israelites, Jesus Christ and the disciples having tan or brown skin?

            (Quote)

      • Hi Jero,

        Thanks for your post. It is my contention that in your efforts to try and “debunk” Christianity, you have a number of wildly inaccurate statements. Most noteworthy, is this one:


        Further on the Bible, this is were Anna and myself differ, the Christian Bible or the New Testament as we now it today, stems from the amalgam (over 200 different gospels were around from the late part of 2nd) of gospels, out of which the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were chosen at the Council of Nicaea, in 325 CE, which was dictated by the Roman emperor, Constantine the Great. Scholar are unanimous that the gospels are heavily interpolated, which came to light from ancient writings and the re-discovery of the Codex Sinaiticus or the Sinai Bible in 1845, but that is another story!

        I ask: have you ever read the records of the Council of Nicea? Have you ever read an actual essay or book on the Council of Nicea from a credible historian or academic? I would submit that you have not because your entire point is factually wrong. There was no “selection” of books of the Bible at the Council of Nicea. Aside from Dan Brown’s wildly inaccurate DaVinci Code (which was a work of fiction), I am not sure how you can come to this conclusion with real, substantive research.

        Fortunately, the recorded minutes of the meeting are still in existence today (and can be found online), so it’s very easy to confirm that there was “picking of books”, rejection of other Gospels, etc., or other false assertions made in the fictional book the DaVinci Code.

        As for the Codez Sinaticus – it is highly doubtful that that manuscript was from the 5th century and was most likely a manuscript drafted in the 19th century by Constantine Simonides. This was well documented in the London Herald for 2 straight years of articles at the time of the “discovery” of the manuscript by Tischendorf. This is all historical fact. So that manuscript is not really reliable for BIble translation or for establishing Bible accuracy.

        I know that I am making strong charges against you, but you are making very strong assertions and not providing any research or evidence to support them. So I welcome your response.

          (Quote)

        • Only because this planet seems hell bent on proving one or the other and are always arguing about it. I wish, I wish, I wish, that I could spread love and peace amongst all. I can’t understand why people would want to hurt each other so much. Why they must always find a group of people to hate. we all have our dark side. It’s how we decide to use the dark and light within us that determines our level of enlightenment.

          Soon as I cross over, I’m going to have one heck of a discussion with the big one in charge :O)
          So far as I can guess I’m going to be around for a looooong time. I’m to ornery for heaven and hell both that they don’t want me. LOL.

          Reading the comments on this site is just a review of what I read and hear all over the Internet and from people. I’m hoping some day I will read something somewhere that will be different and will move me. (other than lighting the fire within me :O)

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          • The enlightened mind comes through enlightenment of the heart. The source of light is the Creator of light. To invite the Creator of Light (who in essence IS the light) into one’s heart, is the way to achieve (through the largess of the Creator) true enlightenment.

            The enlightened heart and mind are fused together by the enlightened soul. The enlightened soul contains no darkness, no dark side. The Light has taken over, consuming all thoughts, leading to actions of love and self-sacrifice. Light cannot be consumed by darkness. Light is eternal, just as our soul is eternal.

            “Forward, the Light Brigade!”

              (Quote)

            • Quackzalcoatl: The enlightened mind comes through enlightenment of the heart. The source of light is the Creator of light. To invite the Creator of Light (who in essence IS the light) into one’s heart, is the way to achieve (through the largess of the Creator) true enlightenment.The enlightened heart and mind are fused together by the enlightened soul. The enlightened soul contains no darkness, no dark side. The Light has taken over, consuming all thoughts, leading to actions of love and self-sacrifice. Light cannot be consumed by darkness. Light is eternal, just as our soul is eternal.“Forward, the Light Brigade!”

              Amen to that!
              I couldn’t have said it more poetically than that.
              Is that in the Vedas?
              Haven’t gotten to those yet. Only skimmed a few. There are so many, but are in my collection of books to read.

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          • If you read ten pages of the Vedas every day for fifty years, I think you would still be reading through them without hitting the end. They are exhaustive.

            No, the words are mine. But the inspiration is straight from Scripture.

            Thank you for the kind words, FR!

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            • Quackzalcoatl: If you read ten pages of the Vedas every day for fifty years, I think you would still be reading through them without hitting the end. They are exhaustive.No, the words are mine. But the inspiration is straight from Scripture. Thank you for the kind words, FR!

              I hear you. That is why I’m still retarded. There is so much to read and so much to learn.

              You write beautifully.

              Thank you.

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        • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi (sorry I have no name to cite)

          Sorry for the delay in getting my response back to you.

          Yes, I have read the Nicaea creed and the Council of Nicaea records, etc., and some scholarly work on the subject, however, not lately, and I have never read Dan Brown? On your point that there were no selection of books at the council, there I have to differ, As Constantine through his advisor on religious affairs, Osius Cadoba, (I believe he was a Spaniard) went to Alexandria with a letter to the bishops for them to seek peace between themselves, it failed and Constantine, immediately call a council at Bithynia, at a called Nicaea, he told every presbyter to get on an ass, at the expense of the people and bring with them all the manuscripts (MSS) that the preach from, raped in leather. On arriving at Nicaea they handed the MSS over, which went missing, presumed burnt. The Church cite Irenaeus of Lyon(130-202 CE) as attesting to the four gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, however, scholars state that church propaganda. The scholar Pagels states: In the earliest Christian movement, there were actually many different writings circulated, and many traditions about the sayings of Jesus. Some of the leaders were concerned to say, “Well, which of these writings can be read in church? Which are the right ones? Which are the best ones?” And Irenaeus, the leader of a church in France in about the year 170, declared that “The heretics boast that they have many more gospels than there really are. But really they don’t have any gospels that aren’t full of blasphemy. There actually are only four authentic gospels. And this is obviously true because there are four corners of the universe and there are four principal winds, and therefore there can be only four gospels that are authentic. These, besides, are written by Jesus’ true followers.”
          Now, today, scholars of the New Testament wouldn’t agree with Irenaeus, because we don’t know who wrote the gospels we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, any more than we know who wrote the. They’re all attributed to disciples of Jesus, but we don’t really know who wrote them. And we don’t know whether they came as the earliest sources or not. In fact, chances are they didn’t.[Elaine H. Pagels: The Harrington Spear Paine Foundation Professor of Religion Princeton University]
          I rest my case on this information alone. However, the same scholar attested in a religious programme that Constantine, burnt the many scrolls and codices that the presbyters bought to the council of Nicaea.

          The very best
          Jero Jones Mab Cymru

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          • Hi Jero,

            Thanks for your response. I find it interesting that earlier you were saying that a “consensus of scholars” support your point but now you are resting your argument on scholar, Elaine Pagels. And that’s completely fine. The problem is that Pagels is one of the worst “Bible scholars” out there right now. She opposes Biblical Christianity, is a shameless promoter of the Gnostic Gospels and has a track record of poor scholarship. And I will prove it to you.

            Here are some of the clear errors in Pagel’s work from the same book you are quoting:

            How, then, could Irenaeus safeguard this essential gospel message––upon which he believed salvation depends? As we have seen, when Irenaeus confronted the challenge of the many spiritual teachers, he acted decisively, by demanding that believers destroy all those “innumerable secret and illegitimate writings” [here Pagels footnotes AH 1.20.1] that his opponents were always invoking, and by declaring that, of all versions of the “gospel” circulating among Christians, only four are genuine. In taking these two momentous––and, as it turned out, hugely influential––steps, Irenaeus became a chief architect of what Christians in later generations called the New Testament canon… (Beyond Belief, p. 147).

            Here Pagels says that Irenaeus demanded that Christians destroy the Gnostic Gospels and cites Against Heresies, 1.20.1. Here is that chapter of Against Heresies in its entirety:

            Besides the above [misrepresentations], they adduce an unspeakable number of apocryphal and spurious writings, which they themselves have forged, to bewilder the minds of foolish men, and of such as are ignorant of the Scriptures of truth. Among other things, they bring forward that false and wicked story which relates that our Lord, when He was a boy learning His letters, on the teacher saying to Him, as is usual, “Pronounce Alpha,” replied [as He was bid], “Alpha.” But when, again, the teacher bade Him say, “Beta,” the Lord replied, “Do thou first tell me what Alpha is, and then I will tell thee what Beta is.” This they expound as meaning that He alone knew the Unknown, which He revealed under its type Alpha.

            Nowhere in this chapter is there any suggestion to burn books or destroy Gnostic Gospels. Here is a link to the entire treatise of Against Heresies.

            Nowhere in the entire 800 page text is there any suggestion, hint or much less a “demand” that Christians destroy any books. Pagels FABRICATED THIS. This is poor scholarship at best, blatant fraud at worst. But Pagels, like Dan Brown relies on the notion that the reader will not check her sources and see if she is being honest.

            Here is another example of BLATANT LIES from the same book:

            in 367 [AD] Athanasius, the zealous bishop of Alexandria––an admirer of Irenaeus––issued an Easter letter in which he demanded that Egyptian monks destroy all writings, except for those he specifically listed as “acceptable,” even “canonical”…” (Beyond Belief, p. 97).

            Here is the link to the text of the Easter Letter of Athanasius. Nowhere in the letter will you find any order or demand to destroy non-canonical books. Nowhere. Again, this is a complete fabrication and fraud done by an incompetent “scholar.” At this point, her work must clearly be rejected.

            To no surprise, Pagels co-auhored the book “Reading Judas” based on the Gnostic Gospel of Judas. The entire premise of her book was based on a misreading of the ancient Copt in which she claimed Judas was a friend and confidant of Jesus Christ. Dr. April DeConick, an expert on the Gnostic Gospels and ancient Coptic, completely ripped Pagel’s work to shreds in her book: “The Thirteenth Apostle: What the Gospel of Judas Really Says.” We detailed all of this in our article about the fraudulent “Gospel of Jesus’ Wife” that was “discovered” last year by Harvard Professor Karen King. This “Gnostic Gospel” was a fragment King claimed was from antiquity and stated that Jesus had a wife. It was roundly critiqued by academics and antiquities experts as a fraud and the documentary being produced about it was scrapped. And to no surprise, King was Pagel’s co-author in the book Reading Judas.

            So the one source you rest your entire belief on is a very poor one. As I originally stated, if you simply look at the recorded minutes of the Council of Nicea, there was no selection of books of the Bible, suppression of Gnostic Gospels or burning of books. The Biblical Cannon was established well before this time. Constantine commissioned the Council because there was a debate over a man named Arians who opposed the Christian faith and was challenging the nature of The Lord Jesus Christ. This was the purpose of the Council. Constantine did not order any book burning there. He was not even baptized into Christianity until almost a decade later.

            The writings of Polycaprp, Clement, Irenaeus and Justin Marty serve as first and second century witness to the biblical cannon. In AD 160, the Diatesseron, a harmony written by the Greek poet, Tiatan, was composed of the four Gospels. Christians knew the Bible in the first century, quoted it repeatedly in their writings and gave no heed to Gnostic Gospels. So the notion that in the 4th century, somehow the Bible was then “Selected” and other books were burned, is just patently false.

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            • Bore Da/Good Morning Hi
              I believe I have answered this comment, which came in my e-mail.
              I will reiterate that it is not correct to mar the reputation of an academic, whose speciality is Gnosticism, a subject that you may dislike. Gnostic gospels are older that the New Testament (NT) gospel, and are probably the closest to the original Hebrew/Aramaic scripture, which have little if any interpolations, making them very important. One has to remember that Gnosticism came after Nazarene/Essene/Ebionites texts, the people that the NT refers to as the ‘poor.’ There is a difference of Faith and that of Truth, I respect your view, which are based on faith, but faith does not give truth or authenticity.
              On the parallels of Horus, Mithra, and Jesus, my own nation’s old religion of Celtic Christianity (it was decimated by Catholicism in the early 8th century – our religion before Christianity was Druidism, a religion based on nature, and that too was destroyed by invaders, the Romans in 61 CE), the oldest in the West, Gildas (500-570 CE) writes of Christ (Gildas never used the name of Jesus) by referred to him as the holy precepts of Christ, the true Sun – and not the Son. Is he referring Horus or Mithra perhaps?

              Regards Jero Jones Mab Cymru

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          • Thank You Jero…

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  88. It is a fundamental lack of critical thinking which leads people to conclude that similarities of theme between differing religions somehow discredits such themes as having any merit. The plan of salvation and every major theme of Scripture was spelled out in the opening chapters of Genesis, which would suggest that these themes were universal and known in the hearts of humanity from the very beginning. Naturally, as we settled into different cultures all over the world, different versions and perspectives of these central truths emerged. God, being real, who created all things and maintains the order of the universe and binds all things together (like the Force), stepped in and delivered the Scriptures to us through Divine inspiration of over 40 different authors across a period of at least 1600 years.

    The Scriptures were given to us as a central truth and narrative of human history. Similarities in other ancient philosophies or sacred texts are reaffirming, to me anyway. I enjoy reading the Vedas because there is a lot of truth in them, and their perspective on “the infinite” is not so different than what we find in Psalms or Ecclesiastes, or even John. But I don’t suspect for a second that Scripture was copied from the Vedas. That’s just silly.

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    • Thank you all!

      Sometimes I have hope for our species.

      ~Anna

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    • Very well said Q, Allow me to add the following if I may:
      It is unfortunate that there is an utter failure to comprehend the actual message of the Bible, which has become obscured behind all the debating based on years of research, etc.
      Research, being the seeking of irrefutable believable PROOF of existence, is in itself absolutely and completely inadequate when used as a medium to explain the essence of JESUS. Why call Him Horus or anything else for that matter. What if research finally manages to prove that Jesus is Horus. What then ??? Effectively, research promotes a DISTRACTION from getting to the crux of Christianity – the profound knowledge of the relationship between mankind and the Trinity i.e. TO HAVE A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CREATOR – GOD WHO BECAME MAN -namely JESUS, to reconcile man to God, is the essence of what the Bible is about. It is not complicated. It is not about researching what transpired long ago, it is about what you experience in the here and now.
      The condition to accept JESUS CHRIST of the Bible as Truth of who He is, is FIRST by FAITH – where after the PROOF which we all seek is THEN revealed to us individually through the same FAITH, which then becomes an irrevocable belief. Therefore, it is crucial for a relationship to be established with the Creator. RELATIONSHIP, NOT RESEARCH. You cannot prove His existence through research, you have to EXPERIENCE God. There is no other way to know Him or about Him. You have to Seek God, not history.

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      • Diane, I couldn’t agree with you more.

        I am always intellectually honest with whomever I discuss metaphysics or science with, that I am not open-minded at all when it comes to Scripture or the central Truths therein. I am however extremely open-minded regarding other faiths and traditions, suggestions of science and the like, when it comes to seeking a better understanding of those truths. Also, it makes for a better conversation, since the non-believer will instinctively reject any appeal to the authority of Scripture.

        The objective is to get them on the path, and the more ways you can find to connect to that path, the easier the task shall be.

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        • The article on Gandhi is quiet thought provoking & the answer is “Fascism”(the head that received a deadly wound to Hitlerism is now seen healing). Gandhi indeed was a convenient political tool for the British to their exit strategy. For if it was through his revolution then the laws brought through t the British would have been overturned but the same laws & systems though outdated are being followed to the day. Suppose Acharaya would agree to this but what the machine gunner would sly away is that that the British & its allies are rather occultic by Freemasonry biblically called as the Builders & Lo the Chief Corner stone they rejected, & of babylon is stated “I sit as a Queen & am no widow—-” however their cells are called “Widows’. in terms of beliefs come in the modern day as new age but old wine even unto cults in Christian names falsefying themselves as latter rain but to the apostasy in hidden Gnostics through the false Gospels like in a sermon of John & Lisa bevere projecting national flags of US & India rendering occultic meanings to it is but to the Prophecy of “Spiritual Sodom & Egypt.” Sodom to the gay agendas coming out of America & its beliefs to Ancient Egypt conforms to the symbols & icons within the supreme court in Tel Aviv revealing hindu pantheons & Lo – the Golden Calf manifested, that which Aaron pointed to of ‘old saying “These are your gods that brought thee out of Egypt”, to the present gathering in His wrath, already gathered through freemasonry”. Back then God pardoned but now comes the time of Reckoning to that Great & terrible day of the Lord to follow the Prophesied ” Abomination of desolation” against the “Cause & Effect” from the fall till now which the whole world has been deceived through the Sorcery as stated.

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  89. To the words of Jesus “I come in my Fathers name & ye receive me not but if one should come in his own name him you will receive”. Jesus said unto satan ”Get thee behind me’” Gnostism to its many branches is occultism , again standing behind the Truth of the Gospels, against the simplicity of the mind of Christ. The word is “PSEUDO”. In terms of Religion there is the true & the false, but then those caught in the beliefs off the other side of Jordan say their religions like Druidism , Hinduism etc to Paganism if all those horrible human sacrifices & temple prostitutions are to be believed come today as Abortions & Sexual immorality, even the old ways secretly performed is but to dip into the kitty of satan, part & parcel of Ancient Egypt already shown- The Golden Calf” , would claim that their beliefs were before Christianity but then the truth is, in the first place, Man first knew God & behind came the adversary. Like for eg. instead of taking plainly to the last supper, its Gnostism to the occult coming through the painting of Di vinci into its corruptions which is but trying the penetrate the simplicity of the Christ to the Holy Sanctuary only ends deflected revealing the mind of satan to the said corruptions thinking it to be of Christ, thus the Pseudo behind the Truth. Which is to say all forms of Gnosticism to the occult is but off the devil.
    To the consistency of the creation before the fall, came the latter call of Abraham to “Come out” , today come as The Faith in Christ Jesus & those words echoes even today “Come out of her’” out of Egypt out of the Golden Calf into the Faith brought in through the Holy Spirit, the very Spirit of Truth, who if on the higher side formed the Earth can on the lower side form them who live on the face of the earth. To the critical truth, it is not just ridiculous but highly false to question the Truth or the Authenticity. of the Spirit of God., to the very ground one walks upon, for many a people of the then golden calf were swallowed by the same earth, even unto the revisitation of Sodom back to the days before the flood.

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  90. I’ve been enjoying the back and forth on this debate and you had me swayed until you decided to call a woman a satanist and Nazi sympathizer just because you don’t like what she is suggesting about your religion. You go on and on about proof. I checked out her web site, she seems to list numerous sources. Where is your source that this woman inspired Adolf Hitler? Ridiculous. You lost. I’m back on the fence.

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  91. Just in case you missed this: (All you could say was, “She’s a satanist who created Hitler.” You may want to rethink your approach.)

    “My name is Ken Feder. I am an archaeologist, and I play one on TV, as a talking head in various documentaries on the National Geographic Channel, the Discovery Channel, the History Channel, ScFi, BBC Horizon, and, as it turns out, even the Weather Channel. I have written several books on archaeology, including Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience In Archaeology (about to go into its 7th edition). Frauds is revered by some and hated by others, which is an indication I must have done something right in that work.

    “Having conducted research and written extensively over the course of the last thirty years, I think I have developed a good eye for recognizing valuable research that is worthy of serious consideration when I see it. And the research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration.

    “Read her book. Criticize it if you believe it deserves criticism. But to dismiss it or get apoplectic about her thesis simply because it shocks you is plainly foolish.”

    “Everyone who reads Murdock’s Christ in Egypt should understand that the sources she cites are anything but marginal or questionable. In fact, her sources are, at least as far as I can tell, entirely within the Egyptology mainstream and many are, in fact, revered, and deservedly so, within the community of Egyptologists. The fact that these sources are mainstream, highly respected, or even seminal does not, of course, make them right about the origins of the Christ story. However, it does make them, and Murdock’s thesis in which she incorporates their work, impossible to dismiss out of hand. Read her book. Criticize it if you believe it deserves criticism. But to dismiss it or get apoplectic about her thesis simply because it shocks you is plainly foolish.”

    Kenneth Feder, PhD
    Professor of Archaeology, Central Connecticut State University
    Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience In Archaeology

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  92. “The Prince of the Power of Air, the Spirit that works in the Children of Disobedience “. Though Rebellious its Character is Appeasing, the delusion come down from Eden unto “THE LIE OF THE ‘GOLDEN CALF”, its people & its gods.

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  93. It was the Persian king Cyrus the Great, the Jews called the Messiah & King of Kings for liberating some of them from Babylon 550bc (many chose to stay & thrive there) even loaning them the money to build their second Temple in Jerusalem.

    From the Zoroastrian religion, the Jews took many original ideas for angels that serve God ,Eternal life in Heaven, or in Hell, duality & free will to choose good over evil, and one of the most earliest monotheistic faiths in one creator God. Also the coming of the Messiah comes from the Zoroastrian/Persians, the resurrection of the dead and the general judgment of the world at its ending. Pretty close huh? And they thought it was all something they dreamed up long ago given specially to them, but not a chance they weren’t completely influenced by that earlier thought. And Christianity to follow & Islam to follow that, life & evolution is a continuum, thats the real truth. Wise Jews realize this influence, i wonder why not you, its very plain to see.

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/15283-zoroastrianism

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  94. God is indeed a consuming fire, but when god is depicted as a fire then it becomes to eventually making fire as god & whole religions based on this becomes to the false even unto “Tales of the Witches” against the Truth of the first Commandments of God, Rebellion that which is as the sin of witchcraft, which falseness serve.

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    • The Persian Zoroastrians believed that there is one universal, transcendent, supreme God, uncreated, they weren’t worshipping fire any more than Jews were when lighting candles. The question here is one of the man Jesus, Judaism & Christianty (and his wisdom) being patterned after any of these other gods & religion, and the answer is a resounding yes, especially the Hellene, Persian, Egyptian & Babylonian all adding to the mix, the Hebrews borrowed much. As i said , the covenant, the afterlife, resurrection & heaven, magi/prophets, angels serving the lord to the Day of final Judgement are all Zoroastrian ideas first. Jesus wouldn’t have much to call his own really 600yrs later when he gets born. The Persians weren’t some rude fireworshipping peoples they built a great civilization with commandments & laws, ethics & morals but its all a work in progress you see. Witchcraft, well dont know about that, certainly when you make people into Gods in your imagination but this was nothing new.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

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  95. When the Prophet stood outside the cave at Horeb a mighty wind passed before him splitting the mountain top but God was not in it, then came an earthquake but God was not in it, then came a fire & God was not in that too then said a small still voice ——, It is neither by might nor by power but by MY Spirit says the Lord of Hosts , & things of the Spirit man knows not. Jesus on the cross said “It is finished” & His words are Spirit for it is so written, not imagined .. Israel of old went a whoring after other gods, that of the heathens & their coves & cows all to the desires of the flesh, not in the Spirit & truth & Lo they fell, unto this day. So then, what exactly is the Covenant , to its Oracles. Fire Worship ? Money ?

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  96. Not a bad Straw-Man argument. You have chosen points that are weak in favor of those that are strong. Jesus does refer to himself as the morning star. The morning star as we know it is Venus, also known as Horus, and Lucifer!!! Lucifer translation ‘The bringer of light’.

    Let’s forget about Jesus for a moment and look at the bible as a whole. Take a look at the Sumerian tablets and stories stolen for the bible. Adam from Adam and Eve (Eve not mentioned under name Eve, but story still the same), The garden of Edin, Cain and Able, and the great flood (not similar, but the same accept for name change, Ziusudra not Noah). Also re-examine the translation from the Dead Sea scrolls regarding the name of God. God does not reply “I am what I am” but instead replies “I am Ea” Ea was Akkadian known as Enki in Sumerian. Look at the depictions of Akkadian guardians the origins behind the idea of angels.

    The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered geographically close to Babylon (modern day Iraq), the Hebrews were invited to Babylon (500 years before the supposed birth of Christ) to rebuild Jerusalem for the coming of the messiah. Wouldn’t it be good if we could discover the original stone tablets from the bible? Guess what, we did in Iraq. They were put aside into the myth pile and ignored.

    We also know the the fist known Gods were the planets. Satan or Lucifer, Satan Saturn, Tom-e-to
    To-ma-to, and Lucifer is Venus. Both turned into evil beings by Christians to prevent the worship of these gods.

    25th of December was again another Christian lie. Christians stole pagan days of worship to over-through other faiths. 25th of December was what the Romans believed (incorrectly) to be the Solstice.

    Finally let’s take a look at the ideology of historical records being debunked, or refuted. When we are looking at records dating from 2000 to 6000 years ago there are many ways in which they can be translated, so one may feel like one has debunked research into historical records, but in reality one can never debunk such record, nor can they prove the translations to be accurate.

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    • Yes, all those creation/flood/baby in the reeds stories are stolen/borrowed for sure & the Ten Commandments is far predated by Hamarabi code. We find the OT/Bible not getting written till somewhere in the 6th century BC, then truely assembled in Greek 3rd century. None of these datings by Christian apologists & especially the Moses story is so very far fetched. Even the story of Arron’s rod turning into snakes before the Pharoah, look at the staff of Hermes or the staff of Asclepius, Greek God of healing (who raised people from the dead) that was famous in those times. From the Persian, Babylonian, Hellene & Egyptian and farther back than that as you say. One thinks of it all as a continuum, there was the Indus River Mohenjo-Daro & Harrapan civilizations from which come the Rig Vedas of India. They were more peaceful & their Gods & Religion do pass on somehwhat thru the Indo/Persian that was to later affect the rude Hebrew tribal myths 2000yrs later thru Cyrus. The Gods concieved then were Mitra & Indra and later Vishnu, Mitra literally means “covenant” and dates back to 2400BC. Everything evolves, as it turns out the Universe was as limitless & great as those 1rst Indo/Persian sages imagined, trust me the Hebrews werent that imaginative, no way on earth did they dream any of this stuff up. The Books of Moses read like they were written by semi literate morons in places, cause they were That a Christ shows up when he did? Well look what had already went 500yrs before. You have the famed Golden Verses of Pythagoras , Socrates , Confucious in China & Buddha over in India all the same time. Man’s self awareness is opening up, we are starting to familiarize ourselves with the idea of our own “psyches”. Remember Buddha is just one of a mirror group back then called the Jains, who were far ahead of Jesus and there were 22 great lineages of saints before Buddha in the Jains. Their whole philosophy is summed up in non violence & they trace back at least to 1400BC.

      Saul, when he enters the city of Tarsus is entering a city back then that already has a 2000yr old history. We have found the amazing temples in Turkey that date back to 10,000BC look up Gobekli Tepe, these were probably not terribly bad people. There’s not a doubt in my mind that Saul was familiar with the Golden Verses of Pythagoras (500bc) look that up on wiki, you find everything that Christianity is going to say later. The sermon on the Mt was not original one iota, beautiful as it is, nor as genesis & all the rest.

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      • Hi Rumipoet,

        Thank you for your comments. I want to make a general response. You make a number of very brazen accusations but have provided little to no proof of anything that you are asserting. As you may have noticed in this thread, it is about searching for the answers to these questions through substantive analysis. You claim that the creation and flood stories are “stolen/borrowed” from Sumerian/Babylonian culture. Where is your evidence of this? where is any ancient source that supports the your claim that Jewish writers stole the works of Sumerian writers and made the Torah? I have yet to even see this accusation made in any historical source.

        2. Hammurabi’s Code – This is yet another interesting accusation you make with no evidence. The 10 Commandments were not copied from Hammurabi’s Code. Here are then 10 Commandments:

        And God spake all these words, saying, 2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

        First and foremost, the Mosaic law is SPIRITUAL. It deals with humanity’s relationship to God and proclaiming the exclusivity of the Jewish an Christian faiths. God is to be worshiped alone. There should be no worship or tribute to any other gods. His Name is to be reverenced. The Sabbath Day is to be kept Holy as a memorial of a time when there was peace and harmony between God and man. These all deal with the direct relationship a person has with God and the love that a person should hold in their heart for The Lord who created them.

        Hammurabi’s code is a criminal and military code. It says nothing about who to worship, how to worship etc. The only time similarities pop up is when it comes to sins/crimes against other people. So let’s continue:

        13 Thou shalt not kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.- Exodus 20

        Now when it comes to murder and adultery, there is overlap between the Mosaic law and Hammurabi’s code. So does this mean Moses, who never lived or travelled to Babylon, stole this from Hammurabi? No. it just means that various cultures understood the concept of murder and adultery being wrong. In the Mosaic law we see a reference to “an eye for an eye” as we do in Hammurabi’s code. But again, this could have just been the basic moral understanding at the time. It does not necessitate plagiarism.

        I also notice that you base your argument simply on the fact that Hammaurabi pre-dates Moses. Well this alone of course does not prove anything, but just following your logic for a moment, understand that the first person-to=person sin in Biblical history was murder – as Cain, the first son born of a woman in the Bible, murdered his brother Abel. And he was very swiftly punished and exiled for this. So murder was clearly a sin going back way before Hammurabi. When Noah and his sons came off the ark, one of the first commands they receive from God is not to murder:

        “And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man. 6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.” – Genesis 9:5-6.

        So we see a good 800 years before Hammurabi, God telling Noah that murder will lead to a “blood for blood” punishment. So even by your standards, the Bible is superior. (Perhaps, Hammurabi stole this from Noah???).

        In the over 600 Mosaic laws in the Torah, hundreds deal with SIN. They deal with specific atonement sacrifices, the maintenance of the Holy Temple, the ark, the tabernacle and ritual cleansing for the people and priesthood. None of this is found in Hammurabi’s code. Because again, the Mosaic law is primarily spiritual. It is dealing with the fate of the souls of human beings. Hammurabi’s code is a criminal code. So to assert that Moses plagiarized Hammurabi just doesn’t add up on any level.

        Finally, you reference the verses of Pythagarus and accuse Jesus Christ of stealing this. Here is the opening portion of the sermon on the Mount, of which you said “not one iota” is original:

        “And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, 3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.”

        The emphasis once again is on humanity’s relationship with God. The “poor in spirit” are those who recognize their own depraved, sinful state. Those that “mourn” are mourning for their own eternal destiny and those of others because all sinners are destined for hell absent a Savior. With this comes meekness and a hunger for righteousness. Let’s continue:

        “7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. 13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” – Matthew 5

        Jesus now personalizes the sermon encouraging the peaceful, persecuted Christian to rejoice in their suffering. And He specifically says Christians will persecuted for His name’s sake, accurately predicting the hatred Christians would later receive by those who despise Jesus Christ. But the spiritual emphasis is on Christ and God the Father.

        Now let’s look at the Golden Verses of Pythagorus, which you claim was stolen by Jesus Christ:

        “1. First worship the Immortal Gods, as they are established and ordained by the Law. 2. Reverence the Oath, and next the Heroes, full of goodness and light. 3. Honour likewise the Terrestrial Daemons by rendering them the worship lawfully due to them…”

        Whoa. So right from the start, we are dealing with pantheism – the worship of a large number of gods and goddesses. Where Jesus starts out listing blessing after blessing, the Golden Verses are orders to worship numerous deities. And verse 3 says to worship demons. Clearly the Bible would never agree with this! It’s stunning to think that the Sermon on the Mount would be based on this type of writing. But let’s continue:

        “4. Honour likewise your parents, and those most nearly related to you. 5. Of all the rest of mankind, make him your friend who distinguishes himself by his virtue. 6. Always give ear to his mild exhortations, and take example from his virtuous and useful actions. 7. Avoid as much as possible hating your friend for a slight fault. 8. Power is a near neighbour to necessity. 9. Know that all these things are just as what I have told you; and accustom yourself to overcome and vanquish these passions:– 10. First gluttony, sloth, sensuality, and anger. 11. Do nothing evil, neither in the presence of others, nor privately; 12. But above all things respect yourself. 13. In the next place, observe justice in your actions and in your words. 14. And do not accustom yourself to behave yourself in any thing without rule, and without reason. 15. But always make this reflection, that it is ordained by destiny that all men shall die. 16. And that the goods of fortune are uncertain; and that just as they may be acquired, they may likewise be lost.”

        So the thrust of this is that you should behave well. This is starting to sound like Hammurabi’s code (lol). While the Sermon on the Mount does preach kindness and love to one’s neighbor this is about the only similarity once can find. The Golden Verse are basically telling a person to redeem themselves and make their own lives right. Where Jesus Christ bestows blessings and promises of eternal life which only God can give. So the agents of actions are completely different. Verse 16 is even more interesting because it says that the Greek gods are “uncertain” so there’s no promise of good fortune in life (or death presumably). Jesus Christ offers 100% hope and confidence in all who believe.

        So I think it is a stretch to say the Sermon on the Mount is a direct copy of this document. Not to mention that your own source says that the earliest manuscript of the Golden Verses dates to FIFTH CENTURY AS – 800 years after the death of Pythagarous. So again, going by the standards you and Rosa attribute to the Bible, how do we even know if Pythagarus wrote this document? How do we know it wasn’t changed later on and copied from the Bible?

        I do note one last part of the Golden verses and that is it’s close -because it is very similar to Scripture:

        “70. And when, after having deprived yourself of your mortal body, you arrived at the most pure Aither, 71. You shall be a God, immortal, incorruptible, and Death shall have no more dominion over you”

        The promise of becoming a god is precisely what Satan used to lure Eve into sin in the Garden of Eden. And like the mystery religions of ancient times and the New Age today, it is all premised on this same lie from hell.

        So again I respectfully but wholeheartedly disagree with your arguments and certainly your complete lack of any evidence. I hope and pray that rather than judge God so harshly without even taking the time to study His Word, you open yourself to the Gospel.

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        • Wh

          Beginning and End: So again, going by the standards you and Rosa attribute to the Bible, how do we even know if Pythagarus wrote this document? How do we know it wasn’t changed later on and copied from the Bible?

          why are you bringing me up when you are speaking to rumipoet? What standards are you talking about , do you know me? lol I never said anything about Pythagoras
          .
          Jesus did say,do not worship these God’s and Goddess’s? Why, Probably cause Zeus with his lightning bolt and Thor with his hammer, were not Gods!!! You know why, cause they were aliens and Jesus did not want us worshipping a bunch of aliens. Think about it God does not need weapons, or instruments to heal us, neither did Jesus. I really don’t think Jesus wants anyone in hell nor does he want people putting judgment upon his brothers and sisters! So, unless you can prove to me, that you are true Christian (Follower of Christ), which you can’t because the love jesus does not come from you. The only thing i get from you is anger and judgment and well Jesus wasn’t like that!! It takes male and female for life to come about, so keep your masculine dogma!!

          Here is this ..just for fun!! Give you something to disprove….
          http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/us/historian-says-piece-of-papyrus-refers-to-jesus-wife.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

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          • Hi Rosa,

            Thanks for your comments. I just mentioned it because you two seem to be using the same standard (i.e., if something is older, then it must be more accurate and any later religions stole from it, etc).

            You claim that I have been judging and unloving, and I want to say that I sincerely apologize if my disagreement came off that way. This thread has become quite the discussion forum and I stress for people to be respectful of one another and I certainly believe in being loving. That being said, I do not believe that merely disagreeing with what you say is being disrespectful, provided it is done in a cordial and appropriate manner.

            And while I do not know you, I have certainly read your statements and that is what I am responding to. You have vehemently challenged the credibility of the Bible, accused early Christians of doctoring it in an effort to minimize women. I have already shown that that charge is 100% false. Since then you have continued to to try and debunk the Bible. And that´s fine. You have every right to express how you feel. At the same time, I just want to share my persepctive.

            I do AGREE with you that Jesus does not want anyone in Hell. ABSOLUTELY. In fact, the Bible says this very plainly:

            The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. – 2 Peter 3:9.

            Jesus Christ does not want anyone to go to hell or suffer eternal damnation. But notice the verse finishes by saying that “all should come to repentance.” This is the critical aspect. If we have not received forgiveness for our sins, we will suffer for them. God is love, but He is also indeed our Judge, as is any good father over His children. And this is what I am trying to share with you, because I do not want you to die in your sins. I do not want you to suffer. I want you to know the love of God, and the unending joy of eternal life received through faith in Jesus Christ. Believe me, I´m a very happy person. You may be surprised to know that I am fun to be around. I work with children every week. But my true joy comes from knowing that God loved me so much that He was willing to send His Son to die for me, even though I was going to commit a lifetime of sins. And trust me, I have committed many, probably far more than you. I am not claiming perfection. I am claiming imperfection. And this is the essence of Christianity. It´s the only faith in the world that tells people, you have a MAJOR problem. And that problem is sin. And this is why it is so hard for many to come to Christianity. Because if there is one desire that we all share in this world over anything else it is that we all want to live. And the though of dying and then being judged by a perfect God with the possibility of going to hell is something that is very repulsive to people. We don´t want to think we are being judged every day, but the truth is, we are, and have been judged: Guilty.

            But Jesus Christ came to reconcile us by providing a sacrifice in our place: Himself. Jesus said: “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” (John 3:17). Jesus came to Earth for that one specific purpose. And we do not have to work for our eternal life, because He has done all the work necessary and is the only one who could do it. So what are you going to do about the sins you have committed? What is your plan for after you die? This is what it all comes down to. I am not here to try and battle you in an argument. I am trying to show you the truth about our eternal destinies.
            Once again, my hope and prayer is that you give God a chance instead of pre-judging and dismissing the Bible.

            As for the article you share, we have done two articles on it already. And like my efforts in the past to discredit the Bible, it has been deemed a complete failure by secular experts:

            http://beginningandend.com/the-gospel-of-jesus-wife-debunked-a-critical-analysis/

            http://beginningandend.com/gnostic-hoax-gospel-of-jesus-wife-papyrus-fragment-deemed-a-fake/

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            • I shared two articles and one had just been found u didn’t have time to disprove it they just found it……………….

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            • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
              What hypocrisy on the part of B&E and Christianity as a whole by condemning the Gnostic fragment pertaining to the ‘gospel of Jesus’ Wife,’ and claiming it outright as a fake, forgery, before the experts have fully understood its significance. The greatest forgers in history have been the Christian church, starting in the late 2nd century and climaxing in the mid 3rd century, with more than 200 gospels in circulation, owing to the hands of zealot Christian scribes. Presbyter/Monks/Priests who fought each other, claiming that their gospel was the true and only one, written by their God! In 325 CE, owing to the Christian infighting in Alexandria, and other places a Roman emperor called a meeting with the various church leaders. Under the auspices of the belligerent Roman emperor Constantine the (I) Great (reign 306-337 CE), the council of Nicaea (325) elected four Gospels (Matt., Mark, Luke, and John) out of hundreds of man-made gospels, that were to be used by the universal (Catholic) church. The rest of the gospels were either burnt or went into obscurity, those that surface or were written at later date were classed as Apocrypha. However, the Gnostics and other early Christian sects maintained there gospels, although Catholicism deemed them heretical. From its inauguration as the only religion (Catholicism) of empire, decreed by a tripartite of belligerent emperor in 380 CE, the universal church became a law unto itself, it had carte blanche and the backing of might of the Roman empire, to do its damnedest in destroying all other religions, and there scriptures, including those of the Jews. It was also the advancement of the greatest forgery mill the world has ever seen, the following centuries Catholicism (this is not an attack on Catholicism or Christianity, this is know historical fact) forged its authenticity, history is well documented how the church gained its powers and wealth, etc. The Libra Pontificalis (Latin for book of popes), whose catalogue of its popes from its earliest to the 7th century are proven forgeries, the Donation of Constantine, a 7th or 8th century proven forgery, bought the church untold wealth and landed possession, in the form of the papal States, which they [Church of Rome] held through deception from 754-1870. The influential medieval Pseudo-Isadorean Decretals aka False Decretals, were all proven forgeries, with many thousand more forgeries committed by the church for its benefit. Not to mention the very many forgeries committed in the scriptorium of probably every monasteries, and Abbey’s throughout Christendom, such as (kings) carters, which claimed landed property given by a deceased kings for various churches, etc.
              Posterity owes a debt to the brave clergy who put their lives in danger to tell the world of the church and Christianity’s down right forgeries, men like Lorenzo Valla (1407-1457), and Abbé Louis Marie Olivier Duchesne (1843-1922), who both exposed the church’s corruption in its forgeries. I like many scholars are awaiting the outcome of what the experts say on the dating of the fragment of the ‘Gospel of Jesus’ Wife.’ If it does prove that it is indeed 2nd to 4th century Gnostic text, then it is not a fake, it will stand with the other four gospels that the church claims as authentic. Christianity with then have to be rewritten to amend the fallibility of the so-call infallibility of the Bible! Lets wait and see!

              Cofion (Regards)
              Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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              • Hi Jero,

                Once again you have a provided a great deal if information that is highly irrelevant to the issue at hand: which is that the “Gospel of Jesus’” wife was a hoax and product of shoddy scholarship.

                Have you read the two articles? If so you would know the experts have already given their opinions on this fragment. And since their scathing indictment, the documentary on the fragment was cancelled and Prof. King has never mentioned it again.

                If I am wrong, I challenge you to provide actual evidence of its authenticity. With all due respect, you have made many wild claims on these boards with no evidence. Like your claim that Christians “burned countless millions at the stake!!!!” Yet when pressed you have provided no evidence to support your claims.

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                • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                  Hi B&E
                  Yes, I did read the two links, and I also read several more, including the Smithsonian article, However, I read it as dated Sept. 18th 2013, but in fact the article was written in 2012, and I am extremely sorry for that fact and do beg your and all the commentators on B&E forgiveness for my error.
                  I told my wife about the mishap of my misreading of the date, and asked her, should I phone the Optician for an appointment for my eyes, as I am a diabetic and advancing in age [Old]. Her replay was to forget the Optician, and leave the reply to you [B&E] till next week, just in case you die before then my dear, then you won’t have to say sorry!
                  Sorry for the digression, that said, I cannot find any up-date on Prof. Alberto Camplani of La Sapienza University in Rome, who first said it was a fake, but at the 9th hour changed his mind, and now thinks it is authentic! In addition, I myself took the evidence given by papyrologist, Dr Roger Bagnall of New York University, who judged that the physical condition of the papyrus and the ink provide forensic proof of its age. By comparing the fragment with other early Christian literature.[http://www.multichannel.com/news-article/smithsonian-sets-jesuss-wife-special/133638] Both Smithsonian and NYU are two of the greatest learning centres in the world, and I cannot find anything to update from that! I am not alone, the scholar Hurtado, wrote: …despite direct inquiry to Prof. King…and asking scholars who were in various ways directly involved in the analysis of the item last year, it has proven impossible to get anything further than the last notice about it given in early 2013, that it was undergoing further “tests.”[Larry W. Hurtado PhD, FRSE, is a New Testament scholar, historian of early Christianity and Emeritus Professor of New Testament Language, Literature and Theology at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland (Professor 1996-2011).] It was written on his Larry’s blog dated 5th December 2013. As you can see, that the jury is still out! I think the shoe is on your foot now, for you to provide evidence that it is a fake.
                  Again I regret my error on the date of my information, to you and all commentators on B&E.

                  On the other issue of Christians killing millions, I have given evidence in my comments, however, I should first correct you, that not all victims were burnt (many were burnt) some were decapitated, or put to the sword, women and children were first raped and abused before being butchered, and babies where put on pikes or stakes or bashed against walls, pregnant women were disembowelled, etc.
                  In 1096, Pope Urban II gave all crusaders Plenary Indulgence prior to them committing sins in the name of their God!
                  The siege of Jerusalem, on July 15, 1099 (1st Crusade 1096-99) the commentaries of Fulk of Chartres: …Many fled to the roof of the temple of Solomon, and were shot with arrows, so that they fell to the ground dead. In this temple almost ten thousand were killed. Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet colored to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared…This may seem strange to you. Our squires and poorer footmen discovered a trick of the Saracens, for they learned that they could find byzants [note: a gold coin] in the stomachs and intestines of the dead Saracens, who had swallowed them. Thus, after several days they burned a great heap of dead bodies, that they might more easily get the precious metal from the ashes. Moreover, Tancred broke into the temple of the Lord and most wrongfully stole much gold and silver, also precious stones, but later, repenting of his action, after everything had been accounted for, be restored all to its former place of sanctity.[ http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/fulk2.asp ]
                  The 2nd crusade was just as bloody!
                  During the 3rd crusade, English crusaders decapitated more than 2,700 Muslim prisoners in an afternoon, the massacre was ordered by ‘The Lion Heart’ aka ‘Coeur de lion’ aka Richard I of Ængla londe (Modern English: England) at the Siege of the City Acre (1191).["Richard The Lionheart Massacres The Saracens, 1191," Eye Witness to History, http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com (2001).]
                  The 4Th crusades only got as far as Constantinople, this time the Catholic crusaders turned on the Orthodox Christians of Byzantium, massacring 10′s of thousands, and pillaged every holy shrine for its treasures, the rest is history.
                  On the murderer of the innocent in the so-called fight against Heresy, the church unleashed Armageddon on Humanity, in the form of the Inquisitions. Dowling wrote: From the birth of Popery in 606, to the present time [1853], it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than Fifty Millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for crimes of heresy by popish persecutors, an average of forty thousand religious murder for every year of the existence of Popery….[History of Romanism, pp.541-542, by John Dowling 91853 ed.)]
                  There was also the crusade against the Cathars, with scholars estimating 1,000,000 murdered over their belief, over a 30 year period.
                  The inquisitor Bernard Gui instructed that no one should argue with the unbeliever, but ‘thrust his sword into the man’s belly as far as it will go.’ At Beziers, when asked how to tell who was a Cathar and who was not, the commanding legate, Arnaud, replied, ‘Kill them all, for God will know his own.’ Not a child was spared.
                  More information on the Cathar’s can be gathered from this link.
                  http://www.innervision.com/mysteries/cathars.html
                  However, that was not the end of Christianity’s brutality, it kept going, and is well documented up to 1945, with some historians saying it is still going on!
                  I could keep going on, however, time is not on my side, for it would take many volumes to list all the atrocities committed by the church in maintaining its universal dominance and its claim that all is done in the name of its God!

                  Cofion (Regards)
                  Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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                • You mean to say, you had no idea the Crusades were real?
                  http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1096jews.asp
                  Albert of Aix

                  At the beginning of summer in the same year in which Peter, and Gottschalk, after collecting an army, had set out, there assembled in like fashion a large and innumerable host of Christians from diverse kingdoms and lands; namely, from the realms of France, England, Flanders, and Lorraine. . . . I know n whether by a judgment of the Lord, or by some error of mind;, they rose in a spirit of cruelty against the Jewish people scattered throughout these cities and slaughtered them without mercy, especially in the Kingdom of Lorraine, asserting it to be the beginning of their expedition and their duty against the enemies of the Christian faith. This slaughter of Jews was done first by citizens of Cologne. These suddenly fell upon a small band of Jews and severely wounded and killed many; they destroyed the houses and synagogues of the Jews and divided among themselves a very large, amount of money. When the Jews saw this cruelty, about two hundred in the silence of the night began flight by boat to Neuss. The pilgrims and crusaders discovered them, and after taking away all their possessions, inflicted on them similar slaughter, leaving not even one alive.

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                  • Prynhawn Da/Good Afernoon and Hi.
                    Hi Rosa
                    Very scholarly of you, nice one! You also could of mentioned other atrocities committed by the crusaders, such as the Fordham university’s, account, which stated: in May, 1096 as band of crusaders led by Emico, a German noble, forced its way into the city of Mayence and finally into the archiepiscopal palace where the Jews had taken refuge. The slaughter and suicide of the Jews in this palace with all the attendant horror and hysteria are graphically described in the following two selections taken from a Hebrew historical account by Solomon bar Samson—of whom we know very little—who wrote about 1140.
                    [http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1096jews-mainz.asp]
                    In addition, historians are well aware of the history of the Rhineland massacres aka German Crusade, which took place in the early days of the 1st crusades (1096). Most of the large German, and French cities saw butchery and the pillaging of the Jews, in an anti-Semitic onslaught—with full pardon for their sin being given by the papacy—to each and every man taking part in the crusade. Every crusade took 10′s of 1000 of innocent lives, which only stop with the conquest of armies of Islam over the armies of Christ. Then in 1453, Islam took it revenge on the West, by tacking the most Holy of Holies in Christendom—Hagia Sophia (the then imperial Greek Orthodox Patriarchal basilica, later an imperial Muslin Mosque, and now a museum) and the conquest of Byzantium/Constantinople, the rest is history.
                    N.B. The 4th crusade (1202-04), the catholic, crusader originally intended to conquer Muslim Jerusalem, however, they only got as far as Constantinople, brutally massacring the Greek Orthodox Christians, and sacking and pillaging Constantinople of it treasures, etc. Lots of the looted treasure of Constantinople, now adorn Venice, buildings and palaces.
                    Cofion (Regards)
                    Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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                  • Hi Jero, Thank you! I am really just learning and studying all I can. The crusades was a terrible time and breaks my heart to read the accounts, so much cruelty and brutality. I really try not to take to much in because I see so much of the same today. I do know during those times so much information was lost and hidden from us by The Church. I appreciate all The Religions of the world, I believe they all hold some truth to them and some past forgotten knowledge, the fact that every one of them have similar stories all Over the world must stand for something… I grew up Catholic ( even at a young age knew something was not right) , I then went on to try , baptist, protestant, non-denominational etc. After years, of searching and living a life in fear for so long, always thinking I am dying going to hell, it was a wasteful way to live , such depression and angst , I could not live up to none of these churches Idea of what it was to follow Jesus and be a Christian. Something was missing…. Well, Jesus says to ask and keep asking, he said to knock and keep knocking ,so I decide to sit with my bible and ask and knock and well I Have been on a journey ever since and took me to Science, Religion, Consciousness, Archaeology and etc. It brings me to people like you with a wealth of knowledge and information, it has opened my mind and my heart and I do not live in a world of Fear and of Condemnation !! I do not share on this page what my spiritual beliefs are, all I can say they are not the same as before and are ever evolving :)

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                  • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                    Hi Rosa.
                    Well on the subject of history, you are learning all the time, and I have been doing it for nearly sixty years, and learning new things all the time. There are lots of things in my search for truth that upset me greatly, with its brutality, were I have to leave my project for a later time, so I can compose myself and get my mind straight, etc. However, history is my passion and I persevere and manage to finish each project, but there is always another project to take its place, so the work is endless.
                    I was brought up in a mixed faith family, mam (mother) was Anglican, and Tad (father) was chapel, and a strict disciplinarian, so all the children (12 off) when to chapel every week, with the smallest (under 14) going to Sunday school. It was a happy time, especially in the summer where each chapel had their day trips to the seaside, on vehicle that you can now only see in museum!
                    However, that all changed when I went to college in the pursuit of knowledge, it was a life changer for me. I cannot say I was not hurt by my new revelations on religion and it brutality—I was! It was knowledge that got me through and now in my twilight years (my wife words-not mine), I spend each free hour pursuing my passion of the past, from the history of my illustrious ancestors (the Twdr, English: Tudors) and my own nations past (700 BCE-1485 CE), to early and medieval Christianity, which now encompasses the period from 164 BCE to 1945.
                    Most of my mentors are almost all Christians, with most being Catholic, however, I have learnt a lot from Pagan writer too!
                    I truly hope you find what you are looking for.

                    Cofion (regards)

                    Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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                  • Hi Rosa,

                    I am not saying that the Crusades were not real. What I am saying is that it is an absolute falsehood to say “millions were burned at the stake!!!” when the death toll was closer to 50,000. And this was a military campaign that lasted decades. And for some reason, the assumption is that it is the Catholic church that was doing all of the killing in the Crusades, even though Muslim forces were also trying to capture Jerusalem and did for a time.

                    As has often been the case in this thread, you and Jero have reverted to revising history. There are numerous assertions made without evidence to back it up (unless you have evidence of millions of people being killed). Additionally, what Jero is doing is called “guilt by association.” He is trying to judge the Christian faith based on the actions of members of the Catholic church from 1200 years ago. This despite the fact that the Vatican is a political organization that has little to do with Biblical Christianity.

                    By his incorrect logic, you, Rosa, must really, really despise Islam, right? After all, look at the actions of Al Queda, a Muslim organization committing atrocities in the name of Islam. Do you think it’s fair to judge the Islamic religion based on the actions of Al Queda (especially since they are doing these things right now as opposed to the crusades of over 1,000 years ago)? I look forward to your response.

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                  • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                    Hi B&E
                    On the matter of the crusades, inquisitions, and wars against heretics, I have in past comments, cited proof of the mass slaughter of the innocent by the church, namely the Catholic Church. You may know your scriptures, however, I find it hard that you know anything about church history or history in general. A brief history of the church: The catholic church was inaugurated on 27th February 380, by a tripartite of belligerent Roman emperors, as the sole religion of the Roman empire, is fact.
                    [http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/theodcodeXVI.html]
                    From that time, the universal (catholic) church, destroyed everyone of its opposition, this meant Pagans, Christian sects opposed to its doctrines, as well as trying to wipe out Judaism in Europe, saw the brutality of the church. All religions opposed to catholicism were deemed heretics, however, when the western Roman empire collapsed, in 476, that should of annulled the power of the church—it didn’t!!! To maintain their dominance the church relied on it forgers and fakers, the fast forgery mill of the church when into overdrive, by the early 8th century, the papacy was using its trump card, to bedazzle the nations and leaders with the Donation of Constantine, a forgery of a supposed donation by Constantine the Great, to Pope Silvester (reigned 314-35) of all the lands of the Western empire. Many people suspected that the Donation was a fake, however, it took the catholic theologian, and scholar Lorenzo Valla (1407-57), to pronounce the donation as a forgery in 1439/40. Lorenzo had to flee for his life, and had to seek shelter from the wrath of the papacy.
                    On the deaths of heretics over the centuries by the church, the scholar Dowling wrote: From the birth of Popery in 606, to the present time [1853], it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than Fifty Millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for crimes of heresy by popish persecutors, an average of forty thousand religious murder for every year of the existence of Popery….[History of Romanism, pp.541-542, by John Dowling (1853 ed.)]
                    There was also the crusade against the Cathars, with scholars estimating 1,000,000 murdered over their belief, over a 30 year period.
                    The inquisitor Bernard Gui instructed that no one should argue with the unbeliever, but ‘thrust his sword into the man’s belly as far as it will go.’ At Béziers, when asked how to tell who was a Cathar and who was not, the commanding legate, Arnaud-Amaury, replied, ‘Kill them all, for God will know his own.’ Not a child was spared.
                    http://www.innervision.com/mysteries/cathars.html also many credible sites have similar stories, however, it would take many volumes to complete this project of church brutality, time that I have not got!!

                    Cofion (Regards)

                    Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

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                  • Love your assumptions, You are free to believe what you want about me. I do not despise anyone. I was merely stating facts, I can’t help that it makes you upset with me , that there are historical facts! Go argue with the academic field and the people who left behind this information. Go tell them they don’t have the facts, that these historians are liars. I don’t know what to tell you.. and yeah as you read the facts, turns out to be way more than 50,000 that an awfully modest number. Do I judge Christianity as a whole, No. You just love too get upset at me , yet you try to defend your view of your religion, but it seems ok for you to make assumptions about those you believe is none christian and allow others to come on here and accuse people of having the anti-christ spirit in them. That to me is a crusader spirit, to judge someone and tell them they have a false spirit and you want to win them to your religion! Best way to do that is Love. Do you Love, do you forgive or do you just go around making assumptions about people.. You are so hateful towards me and yet, you are human like me I am pretty sure (let me make an assumption) , I am sure you bleed just like me, probably eat same way. Yet, you see me as enemy and not as human person who deserves the same amount of respect as you. How can I revise history, I am not that influential of person but thanks! Believe there is no “guilt about association” and I have plenty of Christian friends, I have showed them your page and they said you are just making it harder for the faith because you do not spread the message of love and therefore there will always be contention on this page, don’t write an article and ask for people opinions if you cannot be Fair and Just, you allow the Christians on here to bash others and state how they will go to hell and we are children of the Whore! The Crusades have begun on your thread and me and Jero must be the first to go!! Are you going to rip our guts out too, or are you going to show some Love. WWJD in your situation, Would he say” Get behind thee Satan”, or would he eat with the sinner and explain his true message of Love and Healing!
                    Matthew 22:37-39
                    And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

                    I am your neighbor in some ways,..

                    Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back [Lk. 6:37-38].
                    It ok to judge me though, I am the remenant seed Like Abey said right!!!

                    For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses [Mt. 5:14-15].

                    There is nothing wrong in defending your beliefs but do not get upset at someone because they do not believe as you! Accept them for who they are and Love your fellow man (good or bad) everyone needs Love! So what, I don’t believe as you, I am no better than you! You are still a divine creation of God and so am I! I just don’t believe your way and that is ok. You don’t have to save my soul it is not yours to save!

                    http://historyofchristianity.info/christian-history-1639-to-1648.html
                    1648
                    Chmielnitzki massacres In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43] (6 p. 43) Another account: June 10, BOGDAN CHMIELNIKI (CHMIELNITZKI) (Poland) – Bitterness over forced Catholicism by the Jesuits and the unscrupulous taxes collected (some by Jews) for the nobles set the stage for the Cossack uprising. During the reign of Vladislav IV, the Zaporozhin Cossacks lived in a semi-autonomous kingdom called Sitch. Led by their leader – or Hetman – Chmielniki, they decided to fight to establish an autonomous Ukraine with the Cossack leaders as the new aristocracy. Their victories over the Polish army encouraged the serfs to join them. The Jews were even more hated than the Poles and were massacred in almost every town. In the ten tumultuous years that followed, over seven hundred Jewish communities were destroyed and between 100,000-500,000 Jews lost their lives. This helped give rise to the messianic movement which soon followed. [87] (72)

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                  • Hi Rosa,

                    Thanks for your comments. I am not trying to make any assumptions about you. I am basing my thoughts on what you have written in this thread. You have posted a great deal of information that has been readily refuted. And rather than acknowledge this, you just move on to the next indictment against the Bible and the Christian faith. Now that is fully your right and prerogative, but you cannot then be upset that I am pointing this out.

                    Your paragraph about the Chmielnitzki slaughter is a perfect example. It took place in 1648. The Crusades ended in 1297. Thus this attack you are citing was clearly not a part of the Crusades. There is just no rational way of linking the two.

                    Furthermore, all these references to murders and wars only serves to PROVE THE BIBLE correct. That yes, as Scripture says “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” (Romans 3:23). Scripture adds on to this by saying “there are none who do good, no not one.” All of us, Christians and non-Christians alike, are indeed sinners. And world history certainly attests to that. And thus we have all fallen under the condemnation and wrath of a just and morally perfect God. Who will judge us one day. And this is the message of Christianity. That despite our sin, our hatred, greed, lust and numerous other evils, God still loves us. And sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to give His life as a ransom for the world.

                    I could easily cite the atrocities carried about by members of the Islamic faith. Or Hindu. Or Buddhist. And I do not have to go back 1000 years in history. They are happening today all over the world. But what does that prove? That those religions are invalid? not at all. It just proves that all people of all stripes are committing sins. But what about the Judgment of God? That’s what truly matters. What do you believe? What is your faith? You have spent a great deal of time criticizing. Why not share the right way?

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                • Smh, Lol just showing more atrocities and well yeah I don’t have to go back a thousand years either…hahaha! Protestants killed Mormons less than a few hundred years ago. All religions are the same when it comes to war , yes, I would not say one is better than the other, when it comes to Murder!! You are correct!!!! Criticizing, ok!! My belief , Hmm, Keep Knocking, Keep Seeking, Ask and the door shall be opened for you :)

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                  • Hi Rosa,

                    Why not just go back one year. Or one decade? You claimed ” All religions are the same when it comes to war , yes, I would not say one is better than the other, when it comes to Murder!!”

                    I challenge this statement. What religion today is killing on the scale of Islam? What are your thoughts on the atrocities committed in modern time by members of the Islamic faith? In all your posts I have not heard you make one mention of the killing taking place today, in modern times? Given the way you have criticized Christianity, I assume you must really dislike Islam, right?

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                  • Like said, can’t judge all of Christianity because of some bad seeds same goes for all including Islam and Muslim, I hate no religion! I hate no-one really, may dislike them but not Hate! I know u didn’t use word Hate it was dislike but just helping you before you try pick through like you trying to analyze and catch something. Trying to express yourself on a computer is not that easy but I am sure you will find a way to nit pic everything…. Love is what heals the world not persecution and damnation! Using Fear to get someone to act the way you want them too and believe the way you want them too, if they don’t…. they Have Satan anti-christ spirit! News Flash I have no anti-christ Spirit, Jesus is my brother and so is Buddha. Don’t like …get over it…. I am not here to bow to your Idea of Christianity or any other religion! You wanted a debate with your article and you got one!! Don’t like that not everyone agrees with you, Oh well, it is Life! Sending you lots of Love….

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                  • Hi Rosa,

                    Thanks for your comments. But so I’m clear and font make assumptions about what you meant, what was your point in citing the crusades and other acts carried out by the Catholic Church?

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                  • Oh, sorry I haven’t picked any in the last ten years…..You want to win the debate so badly that you have tried to take the debate off the crusades now (we can’t make look Christianity look bad so let’s pick on another religion (hypocritical think?) … scraping at anything you can! Well, you can have it because all this does is create strife and separation, it like feeding Satanic energy to keep everyone divided!! Oh, Look at Islam and what they doing…… smh!! What I like to know is why so many Christians dislike the Catholic Church but still use the bible they use…..with out the Apocryphal text of course! How many denominations of Christianity is there? I wonder which Christian church is the real One? Protestants, believes theirs is, oh no wait it is the Mormons… Oh ok no no it Is the Baptist or is it the Angelicans, Apostolic or the Jewish…then the non-denominational!!!

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                  • So much bloodshed over religion and even on this page some won’t hesitate to damn you!! I liked your article and I get your points but others should be able to come on here and spread theirs without being told they are Anti-christ and Satan or you are just attacking the Christian Faith!! Believe it or not I do respect your beliefs because you are allowed to have them and I am sure it has helped you through many of your test and trials but do not allow others to come on here and break others people spirit by calling them anti-christ. So, agree to disagree!! In the end we will find out who is right..correct!! For now, Let’s love each other and Humanity as whole. Good or Bad, pray for the ones who murder and for those who do not!! LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF!!! You can only bring more good this way!

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        • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(classical_mythology)

          Daemons are benevolent or benign nature spirits, beings of the same nature as both mortals and gods, similar to ghosts, chthonic heroes, spirit guides, forces of nature or the gods themselves (see Plato’s Symposium). Walter Burkert suggests that unlike the Christian use of demon in a strictly malignant sense, “[a] general belief in spirits is not expressed by the term daimon until the 5th century when a doctor asserts that neurotic women and girls can be driven to suicide by imaginary apparitions, ‘evil daimones’. How far this is an expression of widespread popular superstition is not easy to judge… On the basis of Hesiod’s myth, however, what did gain currency was for great and powerful figures to be honoured after death as a daimon…” [2] Daimon is not so much a type of quasi-divine being, according to Burkert, but rather a non-personified “peculiar mode” of their activity.
          In Hesiod’s Theogony, Phaëton becomes an incorporeal daimon or a divine spirit[3] but, for example, the ills released by Pandora are deadly gods, keres, not daimones.[2] From Hesiod also, the people of the Golden Age were transformed into daimones by the will of Zeus, to benevolently serve mortals as their guardian spirits; “good beings who dispense riches…[nevertheless], they remain invisible, known only by their acts”.[4] The daimon of venerated heroes, were localized by the construction of shrines, so as not to restlessly wander, and were believed to confer protection and good fortune on those offering their respects.
          Characterizations of the daemon as a dangerous, if not evil, lesser spirit were developed by Plato and his pupil Xenocrates,[2][dubious – discuss] and later absorbed in Christian patristic writings along with Neo-Platonic elements.
          In the Old Testament, evil spirits appear in the book of Judges and in Kings. In the Greek translation of the Septuagint, made for the Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria, the Greek ángelos (άγγελος: “messenger”) translates the Hebrew word mal’ak, while daimon (or neuter daimonion) carries the meaning of a natural spirit that is less than divine (see supernatural) and translates the Hebrew words for idols, foreign gods, certain beasts, and natural evils.[5] The usage of daimon in the New Testament’s original Greek text, caused the Greek word to be applied to the Judeo-Christian concept of an evil spirit by the early 2nd century AD.

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    • Hi Craig,

      Thanks for your comments. I wanted to reply to several of your statements.

      1. Morningstar/Lucifer – I never understand this argument. Throughout Scripture, Satan and Jesus are described in similar fashion. Jesus is called the Lion of The Tribe of Judah. 1 Peter descibes Satan as “a lion.” Jesus is the Light of the world. Satan was once titled the “Light Bearer.” Jesus is The Christ while the Beast is the Antichrit or Substitute Christ. I don’t see why this is a big deal at all considering that Satan was once a good, holy angelic being. As such, having a complimentary title would be no surprise. It’s just not compelling at all to infer some type of error in Scripture because of this.

      2. Sumerian tablets – Please provide the evidence of the account of Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel being stolen from Sumerian tablets. Do you have any actual historical source to support this?

      As for the flood that is a different story. Why? Because the flood really happened. It was an historical event. So for the Sumerians and the Hebrews to have their own respective records of this is no surprise. Ancient Sumerian culture was the pagan world in the Old Testament. So the Sumerian perspective will in short represent that pagan spiritual worldview. And the Hebrew perspective represents the Biblical worldview. But a flood, is a flood and that both cultures detail it only lends to the historical support for it actually happening.

      3. Dead Sea Scrolls – The Dead Sea Scrolls were found in Qumran in the West Bank (ancient israel and still Israel today depending on one’