This was not the basis for Jesus Christ.
Are the Bible accounts of Jesus plagiarizing the story of Horus, Krishna, Mithras, Dionysis and other pagan Gods? – A Critical Examination
“Was Jesus a Copy of Horus, Mithras, Krishna, Dionysis and Other Pagan Gods?”
This question is often asked especially in light of the viral film ‘Zeitgeist’ a mega-popular documentary about the New World Order and Illuminati. The movie spent over 30 minutes attacking the Bible and the Christian faith and specifically the idea that the story of Jesus Christ in the Gospels is nothing more than a copy of the story of the Egyptian God Horus, Mithras and other pagan gods. Additionally Dan Brown author of the DaVinci Code, one of the most blasphemous, Anti-Christian books ever written, stated “nothing in Christianity is original” as he promotes the idea these mythological figures served as the basis for the Gospel accounts of Jesus Christ (Brown’s latest book, ‘The Lost Symbol’, takes this idea to the extreme – an article on this book and the upcoming movie will be posted soon). This article will show that not only are these claims incorrect and lack any substantive evidence, but that they are part of a greater spiritual agenda that Dan Brown, the Zeitgeist film and others have in common.
Was Jesus a Copy of Horus?
The Egyptian God Horus.
The Zeitgeist film makes a number of wild statements about Horus to attempt to prove that Jesus is a copy. But let’s look at the claims against actual Egyptian mythology:
“Horus was born on December 25th” — According to Egyptian mythological history, Horus’s birthday is celebrated in the season of Khoiak, which runs in the months of October and November, not December 25th. Furthermore, the date of December 25th is never mentioned in the Bible as the date of Jesus’ birth and thus has no relevance to the account of Jesus’ life. So right away, the claims of “plagiarism” look completely baseless.
“Horus was born of a virgin” — There are two accounts of Horus’ birth. The most famous by far, was that Horus was born from his mother Isis, who was not a virgin, but rather a widow of the slain Osiris. Through sorcery, Isis, assembled the body of Osiris and was impregnated with his phallus. Clearly this was a sexual union and not a virgin birth. The “Hymn to Osiris” which records this account states: “[Isis] made to rise up the helpless members [phallus] of him whose heart was at rest, she drew from him his essence [DNA material], and she made therefrom an heir [Horus].” (Source and Source).
“Three Wise Men Came to Adore the New Born Savior”- No source is provided by the documentary for this claim. Additionally, the Bible does not say “three wise men” came to see Jesus. It never tells us the number of wise men. And they did not come at Jesus’ birth in a manger. They came to his family home when he was a toddler.
“Horus was a child prodigy teacher at 12″ — The movie offers no pre-New Testament sources that state this.
“Horus had 12 Disciples” — Historian Glen Miller writes: “But again, my research in the academic literature does not surface this fact. I can find references to FOUR “disciples”–variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU (“Followers of Horus”) [GOE:1.491]. I can find references to SIXTEEN human followers. And I can find reference to an UNNUMBERED group of followers called mesniu/mesnitu (“blacksmiths”) who accompanied Horus in some of his battles [although these might be identified with the HERU-SHEMSU in GOE:1.84]. But I cannot find TWELVE anywhere…]”
Additionally, some of have said the 12 signs of the zodiac are the “disciples” of Horus. Even if this were the case, they are just stars and not actual people who followed Horus, preached about him or recorded his life. This is another empty and false claim.
“Horus was crucified. Dead for three days. And Resurrected” — There is no historical record in any credible Egyptian mythology of Horus being crucified. Additionally, crucifixion was a method of execution invented by the Roman Empire thousands of years after the time of the Horus myth. Whereas the accounts of Jesus’ crucifixion exist in thousands of manuscripts from the century after his death. Additionally, as we detailed in our article “Did Jesus Really Exist? Proving Jesus without The Bible” there are many secular historical sources that record His crucifixion as described in the Bible.
If you are wondering how Zeitgeist could make such wild claims, that have no real historical evidence, they benefit from the Skeptic’s Fallacy: in short, when it comes to attacking the credibility of the Bible it is assumed that the skeptic is completely credible. So the Zeitgeist creators know most people will not research their attacks and just take it as factual (just as Dan Brown did with the numerous inaccuracies of the DaVinci Code). If one takes the time, they will also notice that Zeitgeist gets almost all of its information from one source, a book called “The Christ Conspiracy” by a woman named Acharya S. (we will address her later).
Was Jesus a Copy of Mithras?
Ancient art depicting Mithras being born out of a rock.
Zeitgeist continues as do the skeptics with the idea that Christianity itself is a copy of the cult of Mithras, which was popularized in Rome in the 1st to 4th Century AD (note that it sprung up in Rome after the death of Christ and centuries after the Old Testament prophecies of the Coming Messiah). The movie states:
“Mithras was born of a virgin” — There are almost no early writings about the cult of Mithras and most of what is known is based on artwork (as opposed to Jesus Christ, of whom thousands of ancient manuscripts exist that describe His life, death and resurrection in detail). But according to historians, Mithras was born from a rock, not from a virgin or from a person at all.
“Mithras was born on December 25.” — Once again, the date of December 25th is not mentioned in the Bible and thus holds no significance to the story of Jesus Christ. Additionally, in Mithraism there is no date of Mithras’ birth.
Mithras with "shepherds."
“Mithras was attended to by Shepherds” – This claim is based on the relief above. The earliest existing account of Mithras’ birth is found in a relief depicting him emerging from a rock with the assistance of men who certainly appear to be shepherds (which is interesting considering his birth was supposed to have preceded the creation of humans!). Such a blatant inconsistency should show a serious flaw in Mithraism research, but the Zeitgeist team again overlooks this. Furthermore, this relief dates to 4th century A.D., well after the Gospels had been written and distributed over most of the known world.
Mithras and his "12 disciples."
“Mithra had 12 disciples.” — This is based on the carving above which shows Mithras surrounded by 12 signs of the Zodiac. There is no reason to conclude that signs of the Zodiac are “disciples.” Remember, there is no written record of Mithra’s existence from the 1st to 4th centuries when the cult thrived. The earliest writings are from outsiders recording their observations. So most of the wild assertions of Zeitgeist are just being based on this piece of art. Franz Cumont, considered the first great researcher of Mithras claimed that the disciples in the relief were actually people dressed up as Zodiac signs, showing how ludicrous the effort to link Mithras to Jesus can get.
“Mithras was crucified. Dead for three days. And then resurrected.” — This charge in particular reveals the insincerity of the claims of plagiarism against Christianity. In Mithraism, Mithras never dies. He completed his earthly mission and returned to the skies in a chariot (ironically similar to the story of the Prophet Elijah in the Bible’s Book of 1 Kings, written 800 years earlier). In Mithraism there is no historical mention of crucifixion, burial or resurrection in any artwork or text. In a critique of this theory, researcher Ronald Nash writes:
“Allegations of an early Christian dependence on Mithraism have been rejected on many grounds. Mithraism had no concept of the death and resurrection of its god and no place for any concept of rebirth—at least during its early stages.” In his book Image and Value in the Greco-Roman World, Richard Gordon writes that there is “no death of Mithras,” and thus there is no resurrection of Mithras.
• Dr. Edwin Yamauchi states: “We don’t know anything about the death of Mithras…We have a lot of monuments, but we have almost no textual evidence, because this was a secret religion. But I know of no references to a supposed death and resurrection.”
It is also important to note that for all of the research Franz Cumont did on Mithras, his overriding conclusion was that unlike Jesus Christ, who was a real person, Mithras did not exist. Thus a basic examination of the factual evidence shows that the Bible did not plagiarize from the story of Mithras.
Was Jesus Christ an Imitation of Dionysis?
Dionysus the Greco Roman god of wine.
Dionysus (also known as Bacchus) was a Greek and Roman god of wine. One of the boldest claims of Jesus being a copy of Dionsyus was a book called ‘The Jesus Mysteries’ which featured the amulet pictured below. on its cover. The authors claimed that the amulet was a depiction of the god Dionysus on a cross, and thus, they concluded, Christianity must have copied the crucifixion account from the Greek god. However, upon basic scrutiny, the claim falls apart.
Dionysus pictured on a cross.
The authors of “The Jesus Mysteries” Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy had their sources for their information critiqued:
When dealing with ancient sources they are even more blatant. On the basis of some third century pictures of crucifixions, the authors claim Bacchuus [Dionysus] was crucified and Christians copied the idea. This is their piece de resistance and they even put one of the pictures on the cover of their book. But suppose there existed an earlier source who stated categorically that no pagan godman was crucified. That would destroy their case and reading the Jesus Mysteries you would assume that neither Freke or Gandy knew of such a source even if it existed. You would be wrong.They quote from Justin Martyr many times about his concerns that pagans and Christians had some similar rituals (they did and modern scholarship is totally unsurprised by this). He is a second century writer who therefore predates all the pictures of pagan godmen being crucified and he writes:
“But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically.” Justin Martyr ’s First Apology LV.
No honest scholar would simply fail to quote this vitally important contradiction to their thesis. Gandy did attempt to explain away this passage when it was presented to him but failed utterly and certainly could not say why he ever felt he could simply miss it out of his book. (source)
Even if the amulet was real, it’s dated to over 300 years after the crucifixion of Christ. By the 4th century tens of thousands of New Testament manuscripts were in circulation all over the world and the Roman Empire made Christianity its official religion. So the story of Christ’s crucifixion was very well-known. Thus the idea that a 4th century amulet was the inspiration for the Crucifixion in the Gospel’s makes no sense. We cited the Roman historian Tacitus who in 115 AD wrote:
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. (source)
So again, the account of Jesus’ crucifixion at the orders of Pontius Pilate, just as the Bible details, was well-known even in non-Christian circles.
“Dionysus was born of a virgin” — Again, this blatantly flies in the face of mythology surrounding this pagan god. The two most common stories of Dionysus’ birth involve the god Zeus, his father, either impregnating the mortal woman Semele, or impregnating Persephone (the Greek Queen of the underworld). In either instance, it is not a virgin birth (and it also gives allusion to the Bible’s description of fallen angels impregnating human women, something written in the book of Genesis 2,000 years before the myth of Dionysus).
“Dionsysus was born on December 25th” — Once again, there is no pre-Christian manuscript or evidence of this. And of course the date of December 25th is not significant since it’s not in the Bible. Some point to Dionysus’ ability to create wine as a sign that Jesus was a copy (since Jesus turned water to wine at a wedding) but Dionysus was the god of wine. Jesus was the Son of God and humanity’s Savior. And while there is non-Christian evidence and proof that Jesus existed, there is none to support that Dionysus was a real person who actually existed. And Jesus Christ was clearly not a copy of Dionysus.
Was Jesus Christ a Copy of Krishna?
The Hindu God Krishna.
As the Devine Evidence blog states:
In Hinduism, Krishna is believed to be the eighth avatar of Vishnu, the second aspect of the Hindu trinity. Almost every correlation between Krishna and Jesus can be traced to Kersey Graves, a 19th century author who believed Christianity was created from pagan myths. Though his works have been proven by scholars to be false and poorly researched (Source), many still ignorantly refer to his arguments not knowing they are easily disproved by simply comparing the Bible to the Hindu texts.
Zeitgeist Debunked
“Krishna was born of a virgin named Devaki” — The basic story of Krishna’s origin makes this claim laughable: In mythology researcher Joseph Campbell’s book, Occidental Mythology, he writes of Krishna’s origin:
“In India a like tale is told of the beloved savior Krishna, whose terrible uncle, Kansa, was, in that case, the tyrant-king. The savior’s mother, Devaki, was of royal lineage, the tyrant’s niece, and at the time when she was married the wicked monarch heard a voice, mysteriously, which let him know that her eighth child would be his slayer. He therefore confined both her and her husband, the saintly nobleman Vasudeva, in a closely guarded prison, where he murdered their first six infants as they came.”
So from the basic origin story of Krishna, his mother had seven children before he was born, so she was clearly not a virgin. Additionally, the book of Isaiah, which prophesied that a virgin would give birth to the Messiah of the Bible, was written 700 years before Christ and at least 100 years before Krishna.
“There was Infant massacre in all the land at the time of Krishna’s birth” – In the Gospel accounts, King Herod, upon hearing the Jewish Messiah has been born, orders all Jewish male infants to be killed. Skeptics claim a similar occurrence happened with Krishna but as the account above shows, only his six brothers were killed.
“Krishna was crucified. Died for three days. And was resurrected.” – This again is just a blatant mistruth in the face of Hindu mythology. The explanation of Krishna’s death is stated clearly: ”
“A fierce hunter of the name of Jara then came there, desirous of deer. The hunter, mistaking [Krishna], who was stretched on the earth in high Yoga, for a deer, pierced him at the heel with a shaft and quickly came to that spot for capturing his prey.” Mahabharata, Book 16, 4
Not only was Krishna not crucified, his story sounds much more familiar to the account of the death of Achilles in Greek mythology than the account of Jesus’ crucifixion.
There are later Hindu texts that do draw more close parallels between Jesus Christ and Krishna. But these texts were written centuries after the New Testament. In fact, the Bahagavad Gita, one of the main Holy Books of Hinduism, is now thought by Hindu scholars to have been drastically changed in 800 AD. The present day Bahagavad Gita has 700 verses. The original, called Gita had 84 (imagine the documentaries and books that would be made if it were discovered that the Bible went through such a drastic re-write!). In the book, The Gita As It Was: Rediscovering the Original Bhagavadgita, the author, Dr. Phulgenda Sinha, writes:
Around 800 A.D. , the original Gita was interpolated and ended up having 700 verses. The name was changed from Gita to Bhagavad Gita. The concept of one single Almighty God, or Supreme, Bhagavan, was introduced to Indian society.
Till then, before 800 A.D., Indians believed in God. But they believed in polytheism. They were also nature worshippers. They worshipped earth, stone, trees, rain, wind, fire, sun, moon etc.
Jesus is clearly not an imitation of Krishna and the Bible did not plagiarize pagan gods. Unlike the New Testament, which has been verified by manuscript evidence to be the most reliable and substantiated document in antiquity, the holy book of Hinduism went through drastic changes centuries after it was written. But of course, the Zeitgesit producers, Acharya S. and Dan Brown ignore all of this just to try to attack the credibility of the Bible. Why? Because they hate the Bible and want to push a Satanic agenda.
Who Is Acharya S?
D.M. Moore, aka Acharya S.
As we mentioned above, almost all of the sources cited by Zietgiest go back to Achraya S., author of “The Christ Conspiracy.” But who is she? First off, her name is Dorothy Murdoch. And in her own writings she cites “D.M. Murdoch” as a source, which is citing herself. This should be a huge red flag to her credibility. She has been debunked and criticized by many serious historical scholars. But more importantly, where did Acharya S. get the information for her Christ Conspiracy book in the first place? It came from Gerald Massey and Madame H.P. Blavatsky.
Blavatsky, the founder of the Theosophical Society, is one of the main inspirations for the modern New Age Movement. She was also an ardent Luciferian. Blavatsky wrote her books via automatic writing” in which a spirit possessed her and used her body to write her books on mysticism and Luciferian New Age beliefs. Blavatsky believed that through esoteric, occult magical practices, mankind could ascend and evolve to god-like status. All with assistance from “the hierarchy” — angelic beings who could guide those with proper knowledge. This of course is the first lie of Satan in the Garden of Eden, who lured Even into sinning with the promise that “ye shall be as gods..” The idea of achieving godhood and “ascension” is at the heart of the New Age movement today. Those special, enlightened ones could then form a super race that would rule over humanity.
She was a friend of Satanist Aleister Crolwey and her writings inspired Adolf Hitler. Blavatsky makes no secret of her allegiance:
“One of the most hidden secrets involves the so-called fall of Angels. Satan and his rebellious host will thus prove to have become the direct Saviours and Creators of divine man. Thus Satan, once he ceases to be viewed in the superstitious spirit of the church, grows into the grandiose image. It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God. Satan (or Lucifer) represents the Centrifugal Energy of the Universe, this ever-living symbol of self-sacrifice for the intellectual independence of humanity. “(The Secret Doctrine, Volume II, Pages 215, 216, 220, 245, 255, 533).
She was also the publisher of Lucifer Magazine. Massey was a writer for Lucifer magazine. Her closest student, Alice Bailey, took over the reigns of the Theosophical Society as well as started the publishing company called Lucifer Trust (it is now known as Lucis Trust). Her stated goal was the preparation of the minds of society to receive “the Christ”, who is not Jesus but a great ascend wise master who will unite all the religions of the world, teaching the enlightened followers to godhood, led by the true god, who Bailey openly identifies as Satan. And this is the basis for the information that went into making Zeitgeist. As shown in the video below on the Zeitgeist film, it is pushing the exact same idea.
In The Lost Symbol, Dan Brown also takes the plunge as he proclaims that Christianity is just a spin off of ancient mystery religions. Do not be deceived. For those who are in the “truth movement” or “Anti-New World Order”, these ideas intend to assert that Christianity is just another form of control and was manufactured to manipulate people. But as shown, the charges are ludicrous with the slightest inspection. And at the end of the day, the same people who are putting out the idea of Jesus being a copy of pagan gods all get linked back to the same false god: Satan. This clever deception is helping to usher in the “New Order” that will be led by the Antichrist. Jesus warned of one of the key signs of the end times approaching:
“the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” (Matthew 24:3-5).
Unprecedented deception would be a major sign and Zeitgeist, The Lost Symbol and books like the Christ Conspiracy are just a few of the examples. Jesus Christ did exist. Jesus Christ was born of a virgin. Jesus Christ had 12 disciples. Jesus Christ was crucified. But most importantly, Jesus Christ died for you. He chose to die to offer Himself as a sacrifice to pay the debt for the sins of humanity. And He is the only name which can be called on for salvation. It just takes belief in what He did to receive eternal life. Jesus said: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. “ No one else died on a cross for the sins of humanity. Jesus did. And it just takes belief in Him to receive eternal life and be freed from the punishment of hell. Which is why Satan has to work so hard to confuses the public and distort the message of the Bible. No other religious figure receives close to the scrutiny that Jesus does. And yet the Bible still stands as true. So if you now believe that Jesus was not just a copy of a pagan god, maybe it is time to start believing that He is indeed the Son of God who wants to spend eternity with you.
For a full presentation that debunks all of the claims of the Zeitgeist film see below:
And for those who believe that can prove the claims of Zeitgeist there is a chance to win money at the website “Zeitgeist Challenge” (no one has won yet).
Great Article. This is exactly why it is hard for some ppl to find the truth, so much disinformation out there. I saw that movie also, but I thought it was stupid. Satan is working overtime right now.
Robin(Quote)
Hi Robin,
Thanks for your comment. Yes, Zeitgeist is indeed a major misinformation campaign with an agenda. And in their follow up (Zeitgeist Addendum) they reveal their real spiritual agenda. I’m glad you saw through it! God bless.
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I researched on the arguments of both sides. You have raised the weakness of the arguments of those who believe on the copycat theory. But the Catholic Encyclopedia admits similarity between Mithra and Jesus, and the Conception of Christ is clearly depicted by the Temple of Luxor which itself a primary source. Both the temple and Mithraism predates Chistianity for at least 208 years, hence it is Christianity that copied from both, i.e., Conception from temple of Luxor and life of Jesus from life of Mithra. In addition, the prophesy of birth of Christ was obtained from corrupted translation of Psalm 22:6 and Isaiah 7:14. Based on the actual translation from Hebrew, the latter says maiden not virgin and the former says “eat my hands and feet” not “nail my hands and feet”. Jupiter was a god to Dionysius as “YHWH” to Jesus. You are just protecting Christianity buy not uncovering the truth. Your loyalty is to Christianity but not the pursuit of truth. You are blind yourself trying to guide us.
James(Quote)
Hi James,
Thanks for your comment. You are making many assertions but you are not providing any sources of your information that prove that Christians copied the Gospel accounts from these pagan religions. Please provide the links to the sources you are researching that state this. I assume you know the Catholic religion is not in line with Biblical Christianity, finds its roots in many pagan practices and thus is not really relevant to this discussion. And even then, similarity is not sameness.
Additionally, your point on the virgin in Isaiah being “maiden” is refuted by the Septuagint, which is the oldest extant manuscript of the Old Testament. It is also a translation from paleo-Hebrew, the original Hebrew the Old Testament was written in, as opposed to every other version of the Old Testament in existence today, which are translated from Masoretic, squared Hebrew. In the Septuagint the verse states: “behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, “. The Greek word parthenos, means virgin, as in a woman who has never had sexual intercourse. So there is no debate when you go the most reliable and oldest source (not to mention that over 90% of the quotes of the Old Testament by Jesus Christ and the disciples come verbatim from the Septuagint.
Similarly, in Psalm 22:16 it reads: “..they pierced my hands and my feet.” So again, there is no linguistic debate about the meaning of the text at all.
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I have never seen this movie you speak of But if you are so blind that you can not see the truth with your own eyes then I truly feel sorry for you. Jesus is a mish- mash of stories from other religions just as all other stories in the bible are… The Bible was written by men, several men over hundreds of years and each time it was re-written the person paying for the book interjected a little more in to it. The stories, all stories in the bible are reworked from hundreds and sometimes thousands of years before the birth of Christianity. It is no coincidence that all of the 3 big religions began at the same time on the same spot they just stole their ideas from a Pharaoh named Akhenaton who was the first to worship a monotheistic god. please check your fact before you state your semi-truths and theories are the beginning and end
Rip(Quote)
Hey Rip,
Thanks very much for your comments. I just wanted to address some of the things you said:
1. The story of Jesus is a mish-mash — What historical studies are you basing this on? Which religious figure is Jesus a copy of? I would certainly not any of the ones described above. Moreover, Jesus, from non-Biblical sources, has been clearly proven to be a real person who existed and not just a mythological deity. See our article here for more information on this.
2. The Big 3 religions began at the same time on the same spot: The first 5 books of the Bible, which are also the first books of the Jewish Torah, date back to 1500 BC. Christianity was founded in ca. 32 AD. The Koran of Islam was written in approximately 625 AD. So I think it’s clear that they did not start at the same time (nor the same place for that matter).
3. Do you have any evidence of the “Big 3″ religions stealing from Pharaoh Akhenaton?
I welcome your response. God bless.
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Keep the faith man. Don’t waste your time questioning or thinking. Jesus is the only truth, all the other religions just fooled people.
Todd(Quote)
I think he has every right to question and think. If jesus died for us on the cross to give us the gift of life then apart of that gift is to experience life for our selves and respecting the opinions including religious belief of another is also apart of the good deeds of life – that is what god would want for us all. Think about it.
Also, Many stories of the old testament were written way before the birth of Jesus to name but a few yet there are so many simalarities, I really enjoyed reading the old testament.
Griffo(Quote)
Hi Griffo,
I absolutely respect other religions and readily defend everyone’s right to choose their faith, whatever it may be. That does not mean I find them to be valid from a spiritual standpoint. Jesus Christ said: I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. – John 14.6 So it’s not my opinion on Christianity. Jesus declared Himself the exclusive way to Heaven. Once again, it is your choice to believe or not believe that but that is the standard that Jesus set Himself.
Beginning and End(Quote)
I do like this post as I agree that their are many inaccuracies taking the zeitgeist movie seriously. However to disillusion yourself into factually believing that any religion is not a grouping of older stories and legends that manifest into a cohesive cultural position is just being poorly actuated to anthropological understanding. Even the book of Issiah previously mentioned is and was at one point a passing of previous concepts, that manifested into a finalized story. Their truth is there were tons of individualized Hebrew stories that were not only discarded but were chosen to not be in what was the augmentation of the bible. I find it very interesting that by Hebrew teachings say Jesus was a man, but did not preform special “god-power,” but was still a man of god. Christians like to overlook that there is a wonderful 70 year gap between the events described and the main forming of the bible. I am not saying that Jesus didn’t exist but the idea that he might have been a exaggerated philosopher of new ideals into the Hebrew culture, which had been starting through Roman occupation to be more affiliated with the more taboo things of glorification of ancient Rome. Greed and other things that Solomon taught against and selfish pride and activation were rampant. Even if we go off the story of Jesus with the Jewish Merchants when he losses his temper. That gap gave a substantial amount of time for exaggeration. Not to mention that the very people who condemned him seem to have no recollection of the rebirth and raising of Christ. Also no Roman ever mentions the ascension just the note of yeah we killed that guy. The fact is that all religions have come from earlier forms and meld with the transfer of cultures. This is shown in the uniting of Egypt and the conjoining of most major deities of both lower and upper Egypt. As well as the Etruscan death rituals that melded with Roman adoption of the Greek lineage even with the early Romans slowly convincing themselves that they were descendents of the Trojan’s (almost no anthropological evidence to aide their opinion) to name a few. The fact is that tribal turns to local, which in turn goes to societal and a cohesion of all the tribal gods that represented those ideals become accepted (especially shown throughout Hinduism) and then by societal are rebuked by ideals of monotheism. One idea is that society got big, war becoming intrinsically more large scale and scary, people could not find dualism in the hard to answer questions of how is he benevolent if he can hurt me by personal characteristic. This made the transition to monotheism easy as like zeitgeist Paul was preaching an argument. One with so many facts it was easy to counter the arguments. We now have tons of cultures with tons of religions how do you pick between the cults in Rome denounce the other religions as iconic demons that have tricked you for centuries, and remove their traits from your idol. Use Jewish legends that are monotheistic and cohesive with the group of your savior, during the hermetic revolution when we were combining religions to explain them. All religions are cohesive the principles of Christianity in the new testament argue and dis way against previous religions, this means they used previous religions as a format of what not to do. So you still used their principles you still used their terms they used, and you still define the idol in the same reference just singularly. This is why the three modern religions Buddhism,Christianity, and Islam are more defined in moral action but weak in a cosmological point of view. (Buddhism being a minor exception but still applies only because of previous Vedic doctrines being excepted into the ideals through the change over of religious rule, but makes their universal view extremely complicated as their cosmos to individual doesn’t match to the new scientific ideas such as their astrology ideas and other such practices that were extremely important, where as Hindu mythology is so vague and paradoxically perfect it can fit most topics but the gods themselves become a contradiction to the new view). This along with the loss of structure writing understanding leads to most the controversies. The oldest versions of the bible and torah have structure writing that meant story, or lesson, or moral but through translation that was discarded as it was seen as unnecessary although to most fundamentalists that would defeat their entire legitimacy proposal. We need to learn from the religions for what they are, like the ancient mystery schools lets move to the next conscious point of questioning, like the ancients we should find the best way to adapt from our many teachings, and while zeitgeist is a historical train-wreck the concept is founded, by the fact of religious upheaval taking p residence to the exact ancient teachings. Even if by unlikely-hood aliens even were the gods we speak of in every book or depiction our understanding would be a fragmentation of their truth, not to mention the fact that they would have been exploiting us. So In my opinion the argument should leave both the transcendental and real realms and find a ground of moral magnitude through romanticizing thought, and achieving greatness by activating sciences for higher societal purposes. (AKA your i-phone is achievement for the internet structure and communicating abilities it has not for the personal access to these things. Otherwise they are just as big of hindrances for a large portion of society. Where as it is a building point to augmented reality which will benefit us all by removing factual base into records). Or otherwise put: the pyramids, Machu pichu, and all the ancient sites show a clear integration of all aspects of their own culture into a whole societal concept that built and made wonders. Our sky scrappers will be a blemish on our mark if they even make it to another sentient finding them.
Lawn Statesman(Quote)
Hi Lawn,
Thanks for your post. I guess like others before I will simply ask you to provide evidence of a historical source that says that the Biblical authors stole the content of the Bible from other religions. Where is your data? So far no one has provided any real evidence. Zeitgeist had to provide “proof” in the form of a pseudo-academic who has done completely shoddy work. The sad thing on top of this is that Jesus’ life is really not that similar to Krishna, Buddha Mithras or Horus at all. It’s just that this idea has been said over so many times, it starts to “feel right” in the psyche.
“Christians like to overlook that there is a wonderful 70 year gap between the events described and the main forming of the bible..”
first off, many historians would say that the earliest Gospel book was written 30-40 years after the death of Jesus. Secondly, a 70 year gap is an incredibly short amount of time for a figure from antiquity. When you look at the accounts of Julius Ceasar, Alexander the Great or other legendary people of that era (whose histories I am sure you trust and believe completely) the time from their deaths to the manuscripts chronicling their lives – it took centuries for them to be written. IN the case of Caesar it was 1,000 years before the earliest manuscript about his life was written. And again, do you doubt Caesar’s existence or the truth behind the account of the Gallic wars?
Christianity is not about moral action. It is about Jesus Christ, God incarnate, who died for the sins of humanity. And it is only through faith in Him for the forgiveness of our sins that we receive salvation. Jesus said: “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”(John 6:40). I hope and pray you consider God’s offer of free forgiveness.
Beginning and End(Quote)
I am confiding here that this topic is even above siting as there is no one individual idea here to site (You kind site the Mithra statues but not there intent). It is off of positional dissidence that the need to site even comes from. Please understand that I am not saying you can’t site this information it is more of the factor that what you are questioning me on is concept. I can bring up a ton of examples including some Zeitgeist didn’t even think to include especially with the Norse angle (which personally I think they ignored as the material they could get might fight against their cause). So I would be forever site adhered to sources that both of us could be right or wrong on. So unless you got Phidias to ask if the Parthenon’s geometries were on purpose there will forever be an argument for he did it on accident, even though that is extremely unlikely.
1.Christians are one hundred percent on board with the idea that the anthropological idea of diffusion for religion makes sense from tribal to modern position on all religions besides Christianity. If I had posited the idea in based on Hinduism or tribal practice and taboo moving into societal shamanism, diffusion is allowed in the christian mindset. But that last step from polytheist paganism into the modern conclusion denounces diffusion saying it is divine transcript and is original. I am not only going to target the Christian’s on this either however as all religions do this without fail even down to tribal. I am right because that was taught to me, even though if I was born in Iraq I would probably be fighting that battle on a Muslim perspective. So what I am saying is that if you believe all the other religions functioned off of this activity what made Christianity special?
2. As for the 70 years comment that was my least researched piece of my argument and I do find honest conviction on your statement to the degree of chronicling their achievements. However the raw data is a different story… One of my friends makes the joke a king of Judea couldn’t let one fly without recording it during this time period. I am just saying in an age of date recording as a ritualized habit where is records of him doing miracles, I am agreeing that there is dissidence in long term recording, but those records had other resources. Logs, date books, and verbal tradition seems to be lacking when it comes to the new testament. I am not saying that Jesus wasn’t a living person because your right by literary tradition I am taking on the faith of the academic writer that this guy existed as a scholar, but that is still debatable. What I am getting at is that Alexander the Great had Persian’s writing about him, Greeks, and Egyptian scholars. I mean there are even roman scholars that are using Gaelic sources in their documents about the Gallic wars as propaganda. The New Testament only has one sited source the bible… and that is where we run into problems. I mean the Vedic scholars don’t get to keep the early centuries of people living that they qualify, because we haven’t found evidence for earlier development and there are no other sources to pull from. So I can not allow for a single site, when the only other single sites in history have been fiction or unverifiable so we do not accept them as fact. If we do it is only as a loose term that may be incorrect.
I mean think about it if Jesus is turning water into wine everybody is talking about it. Roman priests about how he is a demon, the Greek counterpart on how he is a great philosopher, and we find nothing. David Copperfield still gets huge press when we know its fake. Why did no Roman records, no Jewish records, and no town records show even the first ever plus one back on to the census for Lazarus’s return. It would have been a huge ordeal that was documented by many people. Even if it was just by locality (if we have those documents is another story but we have quite a bit).
3. To sum up my response, siting here runs us into a gambit of artifacts and symbolism. Both have proven factually almost impossible to define without comment sections by the people who left them, and even then the metaphorical wording of our ancestors gives us multifaceted ideas on what they meant. Especially when we see that almost everything they did to display their idols was symbolically, numerically, and culturally definite, and we still see discrepancy in even the most recorded and basic of items. I am truly arguing concept and that is all, as the standard I am using is what the anthropological community has accepted. On highly scrutinized overview because of the damage that religion imputed into the first anthropological ideas. I do not dissuade you from your opinion off of religion, I simply pose that the several thousand years of constructing the old testament even has more site-able sources including Egyptian, and Now with the discoveries of the Hittite sites and the what is left of Babylonian structure. Why do the legends that do without a doubt have some historical backing based on archaeological findings still have more credibility than the New testament… We found things. We have not found any artifact that pertains to the saga of Jesus, I am only saying that if Siddhartha would have changed water into wine the Ascetic’s would have been screaming that he was a demon of abundance… or proclaiming that he was right and adopted him and museum-ed the bottle it took place in.
Lawn Statesman(Quote)
Debating how we get religions that exist today just is not that compelling without evidence. And now you are saying evidence isn’t necessary for this discussion. I don’t see how we can have this talk otherwise. Many others have said “I can cite tons of sources that show Christianity copied other religions.” So cite them. Where is this evidence everyone is talking about but not presenting? At some point we have to see it so we can all evaluate it and make a decision from there.
Your comment that Caesar had all these different people writing about him. Who are they? Again, when it comes to actual extant manuscripts, in existence today regarding Caesar, they are from 1,000 years after his death. So the notion that there all these documents around from his contemporaries and we have original copies is not true at all. And again, I would just ask that you provide some evidence of the contrary if I am wrong. It’s only because of pop culture, movies and TV that it feels like there would be lots of evidence of the life of Julius Caesar from his own time since his biography is always presented as 100% fact even though the proof is from way after he lived.
You won’t find artifacts of Jesus as you would of gods of other religions because Bible-believing Christians and Jews know that making idols is a sin (it’s the second commandment). And as far as people raving about Jesus’ miracles, remember that Jesus was born a Jew living in Roman-controlled Judea. He was not someone who had worldwide acclaim. He lived in a small part of the world and during his ministry never left it. He was not on the radar of the Roman Empire and was despised by the local religious leadership, who more than anything sought to discredit him. You say the New Testament only cites the Bible. Well it’s a religious book, it’s not going to cite other secular sources. And historians like Flavius Josephus cited the Bible repeatedly.
Again, if you have evidence to present please share it. I’m happy to check it out. But with all due respect, just speculating on history is not the best way to figure this issue out. Thanks again for your comments.
Beginning and End(Quote)
well, you sent an email so I could come and I guess learn and see what I thought…. Far from it. Listen, zeitgeist or not, I can cite at least 10 PhD’s who support the notion you dismiss and pretty much flush your secular beliefs down the toilet, you on the other hand cannot even accept that all religions are accounts of people who were deprived of the things we know therefore invented these magic tales to explain away. I really thought you knew what you wrote about, however you choose a writer that supports your theory and bomb away with side-notes on their work. I am disappointed but should have known. Let me clue you in, an article has to be researched (you have to look at both sides) which you do not do, second a point is made using a number of scientific facts (which you do not do either) lastly, don’t call your opinions articles, it makes journalists look bad, specially if you didn’t do your homework (which you did not do). I like the way you approach people and the semi educated dialogue is fun, but as for the seriousness and professionalism of this page, there is none, again, nothing personal, you are the writer therefore burden of proof falls on you, I criticize so I can say what’s on my mind…. your page works the other way around. By the way I have a catholic priest with me, who can’t comment on your writing because he’s afraid he’ll sin by not containing himself, even the guys on your team don’t like your writing skills. Don’t be mad, I just really find your approach and delivery very child-like and uneducated except for a wiki on horus…or dyonesus… anyway, it’s been fun, loose my email
Dr. O(Quote)
Dr. O — Come now, my friend. I expected better.
If the article’s assertions are so incorrect, then you should explain to us what part of Egyptian/GrecoRoman/Hindu mythology was wrong. Why not provide some of the evidence from the 10 PhD scholars that you know? Where are the links? Because I fail to see what you’re trying to say here.
Are you asserting that in Egyptian mythology, Horus was born of a virgin? Or that in Mithraism, Mithras was crucified, died 3 days later and resurrected? What parts of these religions did the article get incorrect? Just provide the evidence of this whenever you get the chance. God bless.
Oh and P.S. I purposely use Wikipedia because it is a very well known online resource and I think most people would agree that it is not a “Christian source.”
Beginning and End(Quote)
Don’t bother, just keep on being blessed and preaching and testifying. You know that the bible says about this type, just pray for him and keep it moving.
FollowerOfChrist(Quote)
I normally would not just start up a debate but Dr. O and I specifically discussed this topic in a different thread so we’re just continuing the discussion now that the article has been posted.
Beginning and End(Quote)
I can’t do this, Every Mediterranean religion predates cristianity, I don’t need a degree to know that. It’s a fact. I am tired, believe what you want but again your articles are grossly incorrect ( mithra worship predates jesus by over 500 years, sumarians by ove 3000. I can’t debate or discuss this, I use the reference to my degree not to gloat, to let you know I have studied, thoroughly religion and otherwise, and if I do provide links to university papers, studies, archeological findings etc. you will say they’re wrong and the devil is corrupting their views, so I can’t win. Listen I don’t come here to pick a fight and have actually defended your articles agains other more idiotic people posting here, but I know what I know from before I was an atheist, I learned all I know about religions from catholic seminar, so which is it, either all the major religious theologians are wrong and you’re right or you have wrong information and a good imagination?
Dr. O(Quote)
Sorry, Beginning and End, I have to agree with Dr O.
Your story is too one sided, that’s your flaw. And that is also typical of a religious fenatic. maybey if you balance it out a little it would be great.
Griffo(Quote)
Ok um… What does the catholic priest have to do with anything? And lol if he’s really a priest why would he disagree with anything that was said. Lol I’d don’t know what catholic you’re talking about but it’s not Christian – catholic. What kind of priest can’t contain their self? I’m just saying… To become a priest, you have to do a lot of spritual cleansing maybe he should reconsider what he calls himself. And to do research, you don’t have to look at both sides, lol. Who told you that? They lied to you. Even if he didn’t look at both sides (cause he does) he’d still be right. Hello, were you reading the article? The whole time he’s comparing and contrasting. You don’t have to have a PhD to be right lol people who think like that don’t make it far in life. There’s more than a million scholars society looks up to that never even went to school let alone got a degree. This is crazy. I can’t believe I read everything you said. What was I thinking?!!! Anyways, my prayers are with you man.
FollowerOfChrist(Quote)
Very well said.
Beginning and End(Quote)
I was wondering if you could possibly do an article on deepak chopra because I’m seeing his name a lot and I’ve been reading a lot of articles that refer to him as a spiritual god. Please, If you do let me know.
FollowerOfChrist(Quote)
Honestly, do I need to answer that? The top theologians in all major religions agree in one thing and it contradicts the information presented here. The priest, my good friend simply laughed at the article because it has false information. Seek knowledge, from religious sources even. You will find that I’m not bashing religion, I’m saying this and most articles here are simply misleading (even in the religious circles) and contain erroneous information. Just… go talk to a senior priest of any major religion, show them the article and my point is proven. I can’t sit here and output knowledge, it would be disrespectful, I’m not trying to ridicule the writer, but he is wrong. and you lol, you just lol sound like a 15 year old lol… I’m too old for this, you are right, great minds that have contributed a lot to society had no degree, what makes you think I refute that? I’m just saying none of those great minds post or write here, me included. But I can say this, I know a lot more about religion being an atheist than you, or the author, that is a fact. I’m sure you will go on to judge and insult me, go ahead, the world is bigger than you or this website, and Most of it would agree with me, I am correct, you are wrong, that’s not an egotistic comment, just a fact. try to enter a religious discussion group with any article written here and see what happens, then get back to me. and don’t waste your prayers on me, you are just talking to the ceiling or to yourself. besides what you think or post here makes 0 difference in the world of religious studies. maybe as material for a religious comedy stand up routine I guess. anyway, you’re free to believe what you want, I’m free to disagree, how about we leave it at that
Dr. O(Quote)
Dr. O, I’ve already posted this (and even though I seriousy doubt you actually had a Catholic priest at your disposal at the time of your post) I will repeat it. Just for you.
Catholicism is a pagan, polytheistic religion of self-abasement that seems more geared toward making people HATE God, than actually trying to form a relationship with Him. It’s “cosmogeny” is composed of Greco-Roman gods. Jupiter (who is Lucifer) is held up as God (this is evidenced especially in the work of the Sistine Chapel–which pictures God in an idolatrous, anthropomorphic way). Sol Invictus (the sun and PRIMARY SOURCE of the Christmas misconception) is painted as Jesus Christ (and is held as a reverential deity, alongside God). The two gods having little to do with eachother (the irony is that their Greek counterparts Zeus and Helios reveal that Helios–a Titan–precedes Zeus’ birth and is therefore NOT his son) are lumped together alongside the Virgin Mary, who is viewed as Minerva (comparable to Athena, both goddesses of wisdom) and is revered, prayed, and sacrificed to in such a fashion. Their cosmogeny is also composed of the Apostles (including “St. Judas”) and an ever-growing list of deified saints.
Most Catholic practices are condemned by the BIble. These include necromancy, polytheism, self-deification, idolatry, and worst of all–TAMPERING with the Word. Catholicism is CONSTANTLY changing their Holy scripture based upon the filtering or addition of “old” and “new” material.
Izzy(Quote)
I agree totally, sadly such is true for all religions. They all interpret the bible differently and claim to be “the one” What’s your point here? And doubt what you want, I won’t cry myself to sleep over it. Like I posted above, take any article here to any serious religion discussion group (religion of your liking) and you will be laughed at. Try to pass the Illuminati conspiracy presented here as a serious article anywhere… Really, you will be embarrassed. I really don’t want to keep repeating myself, just read above. Your knowledge of greek religion is inferior and generic, go to a local college please, let them teach you that what you say is just one of many interpretations. All false by the way, zeus is as real as god, jesus or the easter bunny. whatever, I am so tired of replying to the same idiotic remarks, but I will continue as long as you all keep inviting me back by posing about me, I”m just getting impatient with the lack of knowledge and superiority complex you guys have. I am not presenting merely my opinion, I am talking about the same information thought to priests, ministers and pastors during their studies,
Dr. O(Quote)
Dr.O,
Please verify biblical knowledge superiority of your catholic priest, you
Have to you disposal, by asking following questions;
1.Where in the Bible does it say 25th of December is
Jesus’s birthday and a command to celebrate it?
2.Where in the Bible does it say Jesus was crucified in Friday?
3.Where in The Bible does it conclussively states that He resurrected
On Sunday?
4.Where The Bible commands us to celebrate Easter?
5. Where in the Bible does it say we mist literally eat Jesus’s
Body and literally drink His Blood, where Eucharist word even mentioned??
6. Where The Bible speaks of the church as being a building,
an institution, an organization?
7. Where in The Bible does it say we must pray for the dead,
To the dead?
8. Where in the Bible does it say Mary must be venerated?
9. Where in the Bible does it say we must go to confessional?
10. Where in The Bible does it say babies can be baptized?
11.Where in The Bible does it say we are to bow down to icons, crosses,
Dead bones?
12. Where in The Bible does it say anything about rosaries?
13. Where in the Bible does it say anything about Holy Water?
14. Where in The Bible does it say we are saved by works and not by
Faith alone?
15. Where in the Bible does it say Holy Convocation ( worship)
Designated exclusively to Sun Day?
16. Where in the Bible does it say Jesus nailed The Ten Commandments,
Including Sabbath to the cross?
17. Where in The Bible does it say Papa aka Pope aka Father has the same
Authority on earth as Messiah does?
18. Where in the Bible does disciples called Saint Peter, Saint
John and so on?
19. Where in The Bible does it say we must pray repetitive,
Memorized prayer, where does it say we are to pray to Mary??
20. Where in The Bible does it say Traditions of Men must be
Followed much like Catholics do?
If your catholic priest cannot answer ONE of these
Questions He can leave his position a priest,
He has no business of preaching to his flock.
TheTruthSeeker(Quote)
Damm, I swore I would not return here but I can’t resist the idiot fan-club! What is your point? To bash Catholics? I can do that for you, so how about you find your own ft and ask away. And by the way, no one should have a “flock”, we’re not birds, or sheep…well maybe you all are. I’m a free thinking, free living man. quit replying to my comments, I know you desperately need a better figure that B&E’s retarded and frustrated author extraordinaire to talk to, but it’s not me. If you want to hear my immortal words, buy my book… Actually don’t, you all need to keep as much money as you can, your tithing is coming soon! Remember, “Don’t say you don’t give because you don’t have, say you don’t have because you don’t give!” – Jerry Falwell . So yeah, do the world a favor, we don’t want you here! [Censored for personal attacks/trolling].
Dr. O(Quote)
Dr. O,
You should not debate Scriptures you know
so little about. If you would you never consult
a catholic priest. Tithing, even though is biblica,
is not relevant to believers, because it was ties to
The Temple and Levitical priesthood. You see,
They didn’t possess the land of their own and
were fed off of the tithings that people working on the land
were required to offer to the Levites. ONLY appointed
by Yahweh Levites, members Aaron’s family were
allowed to collect tithes. Tithe meaning tenth. It is produce
not money. Fishermen, pottery makers, carpenters
were not obligated to tithe. So, biblically ignorant
man, I do not tithe. By the way, you could use psychologist’s
services to deal with anger. Also, clean up your mouth. It is filthy.
May Yahweh bless you and deliver you from this
ignorant, oppressive world
TheTruthSeeker(Quote)
Amen. Very well-said and excellent understanding of Scripture. God bless.
Beginning and End(Quote)
What I really love about this site and the holy spirit inside me gets this vibe is not only is a lot of the information presented factual but not once have you tried to defame, or put a person to shame but you always welcome them with open arms. I love that and it really shows what a follower of Christ should be like. Luke 6:40 student when fully grown becomes like the teacher. I wish more believers would do this because I think the way you get the message across is very important. Keep spreading the truth and peace!
FollowerOfChrist(Quote)
Thank you so much for the kind words. And everything at Beginning and End is done to try and glorify Christ in a spirit of the love He showed to all people. And frankly, I am honored to have those who think and believe differently come on the site to share their ideas. It’s a great way for us all to grow together. God bless.
Beginning and End(Quote)
Robin, is that you??? Tambrin! I pray all is well!
Beginning and End, thank you. Just a few Saturdays ago someone close to me brought this information to my house and we discussed it. Jesus a copy-cat……can’t help but shake my head at some of the notions that exist in the world. I shared what I believe was for me to share, but left the whole conversation wondering if I should have said more….or perhaps less….was it too much to take in at one time…..was it not enough?? I just had a lot of questions. This article, however, has provided yet another resourse for this person close to me to perhaps receive additional information/TRUTH I wondered if he did/did not receive from my witness. I shared the link with him. Either way, to God be the glory for always being the One to give the increase that some may have planted and others watered. And as one person alluded to in earlier comments, and as I shared with my friend…..it’s a choice….salvation is a choice. Jesus is not going to force Himself on any of us….BUT, BUT, BUT, it would behoove us all to make the RIGHT CHOICE – Him!!!! So, we share what we know to share and pray that the work God stared, He’ll complete!!!!
Thank you for your service to Him, and consequently us!!!
Tambrin(Quote)
You may have done a good job in debunking the similarities in Horus vs Jesus but to go so far as to say Jesus life was well documented is a little much. The bible was written long after Jesus had left the earth. Many portions of the bible have been excluded. The story cannot be taken for face value because only a few persons were allowed to translate the story. Any human able to translate it would of make mistakes, misinterpret and wrote stories that would be acceptable to the laws and beliefs of the times. Write an article about the Council of Nicea and all the fun they had determining whether or not Jesus was God’s son or God’s son as we all are.
Kamil(Quote)
Finally, the light of knowledge shines through!, That is part of the point I try to make, you are probably a christian so you wont get much flack, I as an atheist…. I have come close to crucifixion. My point is believer or not, There is very little real knowledge in these articles, I don’t hate christianity bit I hate ignorance, you have knowledge, that does not make you a bad christian, just an educated one. Bravo
Dr. O(Quote)
What points are you wanting proved,because it is extremely obvious that the overal story of Jesus is borowed to some degree from religious ideas that predate it. The resemblence of all religions are based off the same principle. That principle is the cosmological universe(ie the Sun,planets,forces of nature,etc) The origin of Chirst is definitely based off the personification of the Sun. This is obvious even without relation to historical references. It is no coincidence that,most,if not all religions are based on the same concepts. Question is simply which predates which,and I think we all know the Nile Valley civilization predates them all.along with the Indus valley civilization. That is my claim. Im convinced through historical research,with an unbias eye,that the ideology of Jesus’s attributes are no more than those deities which predates Jesus. There are references to a Jesus,historical figure,named Panthera,but my claim is that no biblical Jesus ever existed nor did any of the things claimed in the New Testament! Again I say never existed in the biblical sense. This also true of the original religions. They are only personficaitons of the forces of nature and the natural celestial bodies of the Universe..
Mac(Quote)
Thank you, you have made my day. But try to convince the blind that the information they have is incorrect… good luck, I’ve been tryin in a nice way and was about to simply ignore the stupidity, but seeing as there are others who have obviously studied Mediterranean religions here, I’ll stick around. big thumbs up for knowing what you are talking about.
Dr. O(Quote)
I dont claim that there full lives in every single,accurate aspect was similiar but I do believe and am convinced through numerous amounts of study that one is no more than imported/exported or adopted ideologies of another!(Ie Jesus consist of plagarized ideas of older deities such as Horus/Heru,Krishna,Buddha,Osiris/Asar,Mitras,etc)!
Mac(Quote)
Hi Mac,
Thanks for your comment. Do you have any evidence/links to support this?
Beginning and End(Quote)
B n E… Do you have any evidence to support your claims (other than wikipedia) ? If you can provide me with one scholar, (a person that has really studied, christian or not ) that says your article is correct, I’ll stop bugging you. just the mithra part is sooooooo wrong, you claim it came after jesus, you obviously have never studied common religion theory or mediterranean religions, yet you ask us for links or references, you’re the writer, go study as we did then ask away, but I won’t waste valuable time looking for links to what even top religious scholars know to be true, the bible is a copy in many ways of previous texts dating back over 6,000 years before jesus ever came up. Can you name one historian contemporary to jesus that ever mentioned him ( don’t say josephus, that has been known to be a forgery for over a century) I would think if jesus really existed, and did the miraculous things you claim…. someone would have written about him. (oh and the bible doesn’t count, like I have said before you can’t use the bible to prove the bible is real, that’s ridiculous)
Dr. O(Quote)
I’d just like to point out a couple of things ironic about these (and unfortuneately, a good handful of “conspiracy theorists”) beliefs that Christianity is instrumental if not centrifugal to “The Order” and its undertakings.
First off, many (if not most, hopefully all) TRUE Christians (those willing to take upon PERSONAL and TOTAL Bible study, and are truly projecting and living the Gospel) are in ADAMANT OPPOSITION to any “New World Order” except that which is established by The LORD, God, The Father for and through His Son, The Lord, Jesus Christ. We only live IN this world, but do not make ourselves PART of it, for we know that it wrought of wickedness and deceit–and that His Kingdom is greater than any human concept, even of pure (uninstitutionalized) freedom.
Second, the video itself (though, supposedly, attacking “The Order”) is actually a promotional work of Lucifer and “The Order”). Many of them are, just as many of them are PURPOSEFULLY created to sound ridiculous and incredulous–because if you believe that “The Order” is a myth, you’ve given it absolute power…by ignoring it, you’ve allowed it to sneak right up on you! The worst part? All this BRAINWASHING makes it so that even the most obvious scenario can suddenly become elusive.
Onto this “Acharya S.”–Despite her affiliations (though this seem true of many occultists) she seems to know nothing of “The Cosmogeny”. I, though going by man-made references (mostly in naming), do believe that what I am about to say is Wisdom that has been Divinely imparted. I must make CRYSTAL CLEAR that I have NO non-God affiliation except that with The Lord, Jesus Christ.
“Satan” is restrained far from this Earth, for now. “Lucifer” and his “hosts” are confined to Earth (Lucifer, himself, is confined to this planet’s core)…with the exception of those that have been loosed by mankind’s “earth-shaping”. Lucifer is just one of MANY similar beings who are under Satan’s authority. They themselves controlling beings of their own, who control beings down to humans and animals (and sometimes plants or inanimate objects). This stretches far through the universe (but is still substantially smaller than those who are allied to God, The Father). Their irony is in their self-destructive tendencies. Each spirit, even those of men who are allied to Satan–secretly desire to kill and assume his position (Satan’s very own desire against God, The Father). Lucifer, himself, being particularly insane (despite in reality, he hardly even qualifies as a “Cherub”). Satan, of course, knows this (as he also, again ironically knows his demise is nigh) as all Angels (even the fallen ones) can see into the future (though not their own) as far as the extent of their lives.
Finally, there is a “Christianity” that is part of “The Order”. It is, however, Apostasy–the “Synagogue of Satan”. Unfortuneately, and I hate to say it, many of you may be a part of the Apostasy. But the “false church” dates even before Christ. Lucifer (knowing that Christ would be born on Earth) created thousands of “paths” to the gods and even to God (in some arbitrary form) and created legends that could run congruent to Christ’s existence and mission.
Despite his efforts, Lucifer’s grip on humanity was regardless loosened by Christ (who, by the way, provided the simplest and easiest explanation to the “mysteries” of God). Hardpressed to merely give up, Lucifer then took God’s Word and used it as a tool of corruption. This devil used Christ’s name to commit unspeakable acts, to promote paganism, and to support a “One-World Government”. He successfully implanted Christ in local mythologies (instead of abolishing and replacing them altogether).
His most obvious (and longest sustained) Apostasy is Catholicism. Catholicism is a pagan, polytheistic religion of self-abasement that seems more geared toward making people HATE God, than actually trying to form a relationship with Him. It’s “cosmogeny” is composed of Greco-Roman gods. Jupiter (who is Lucifer) is held up as God (this is evidenced especially in the work of the Sistine Chapel–which pictures God in an idolatrous, anthropomorphic way). Sol Invictus (the sun and PRIMARY SOURCE of the Christmas misconception) is painted as Jesus Christ (and is held as a reverential deity, alongside God). The two gods having little to do with eachother (the irony is that their Greek counterparts Zeus and Helios reveal that Helios–a Titan–precedes Zeus’ birth and is therefore NOT his son) are lumped together alongside the Virgin Mary, who is viewed as Minerva (comparable to Athena, both goddesses of wisdom) and is revered, prayed, and sacrificed to in such a fashion. Their cosmogeny is also composed of the Apostles (including “St. Judas”) and an ever-growing list of deified saints.
Most Catholic practices are condemned by the BIble. These include necromancy, polytheism, self-deification, idolatry, and worst of all–TAMPERING with the Word. Catholicism is CONSTANTLY changing their Holy scripture based upon the filtering or addition of “old” and “new” material.
The worst part of Apostasy is that, where Christ told all men who followed Him were to preach in His name for the Glory of God, Satan used “religious figureheads” to dispell religious truths that are convenient to his regime. Instead of actually READING the Bible, Satan has misled the masses into accepting whatever their leaders tell them.
Izzy(Quote)
Yes I have many references but only willing to share a few! What are you wanting referenced?
For starters virgin birth of Buddha who predates Jesus by thousands of years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(mother_of_Buddha)
Referring to the prophetic dream Queen Maya had prior to conception, some versions of the life story of the Buddha say that he was conceived without sexual activity. This interpretation has led to parallels being drawn with the birth story of Jesus.
The story of the birth of the Buddha was known in the West, and possibly influenced the story of the birth of Jesus. Saint Jerome (4th century CE) mentions the birth of the Buddha, who he says “was born from the side of a virgin”.[2] Also a fragment of Archelaos of Carrha (278 CE) mentions the Buddha’s virgin-birth.
Other parallels in the birth stories include:
Maya conceived during a dream, Mary conceived around the time of a visitation from an angel.
Both women gave birth “outside” of a home.
Heavenly wonders appeared in the sky.
Heavenly beings (angels or devas; or in some Mahayana traditions, Samantabhadra) announcing the newborn as “savior” of the world.
Sages came to visit the newborn and make prophecies of auspicious careers
Mac(Quote)
Pleae understand the hsitory and etymology of the word “virgin/virgos”! Here is a link! Very brief!
http://www.pamf.org/teen/sex/virginity/defining.html
The virgin birth predates Christ by milleneums.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/pcc/pcc11.htm
Also the term “Christ” means to “annoint or the annointed”. This,of course comes from the Egyptian practice of mummification, Link below provides more detail
http://books.google.com/books?id=NPXcxcCLOjYC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=egyptians+anointed+mummies&source=bl&ots=xUMO2nU0jp&sig=ESxQ051g_qbYF9DeMYdafgb8_lk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MZsAUOeFLsnW2gWV7OH5Aw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=egyptians%20anointed%20mummies&f=false
karas =krs karast=krst
Wiki links that show etymological links of the term krs/-sepulchre and krst//christ ,derived from karast mummy as verification of the link above claim of the term Christ! Irrefutable!
krs
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%B8%B3rs
krst
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/krst
The amount of sources are enormous! I will conceal the most detailed of them as they wont even be needed!
Mac(Quote)
Hi Mac,
Thanks for getting back to me with links. Unfortunately, your “evidence” does not prove anything.
Let’s just go through it one at a time. But first off, we should note that you make the assumption that since something is older anything similar must have stolen or been influenced by it. This will become more relevant later.
Buddah — The link you provide from Wiki provides absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the account of life of Jesus was copied from the story of Buddah. And in the main account of Buddah’s birth your own source never says that Maya was a virgin. And it does say that she was married for 20 years which would imply she was not a virgin.
And here is all it says on a virgin birth:
“Referring to the prophetic dream Queen Maya had prior to conception, some versions of the life story of the Buddha say that he was conceived without sexual activity. This interpretation has led to parallels being drawn with the birth story of Jesus.
The story of the birth of the Buddha was known in the West, and possibly influenced the story of the birth of Jesus. Saint Jerome (4th century CE) mentions the birth of the Buddha, who he says “was born from the side of a virgin”.[2] Also a fragment of Archelaos of Carrha (278 CE) mentions the Buddha’s virgin-birth.”
So one there is ancient Buddhist text cited. It just says “some versions.” And the only sources they cite are Jerome, who was not a Buddhist and a fragment from 278 CE, which would be over 2 centuries after Christ was on Earth. So this argument fails. Furthermore, you say Buddha predates Christ by 500 years. Well what matters is the book of Isaiah which is where the prophecy of the Messiah being born of a virgin was written. And that was 800 years before Christ. So the Bible was still ahead of Buddhism in this regard.
Additionally, Jesus and Buddha had completely different lives and missions. So there’s nothing “Stolen” at all.
2) Etymology of virgin – Again, the Bible refutes this point:
“31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” (Luke 1)
Mary’s own testimony shows that she was indeed a virgin, in the Biblical sense. Remember, the rules on virginity in the Bible were in the Old Testament, which was written in Hebrew. Your etymomlogy link is in Greek. All throughout the Old Testament the Bible distinguishes between a virgin and a woman who has had sexual relations. So this argument completely fails.
3) Virgin Birth predates Christ — This website does not provide any manuscript sources of evidence. It merely references ancient myths. For example, it uses Zeus’ impregnation of Semele as its opening example of a virgin birth. Let’s remember, the oldest record of Greek mythology is from Homer and the earliest manuscripts of any of Homer’s writings date back to 500 BC. So again, this would be 3 centuries after the Bible recorded a prophecy of a virgin birth. All the other examples from your source fall after that so they are not relevant to the discussion.
4) Christ = Anointed = Mummy — I admit I am not familiar with this argument at all. But it seems to imply from your source that “Messu” is the word for Messiah in Hebrew and that was based on an old Egyptian reference to a mummy, and the original mummy Osiris. Well I will say first off the word for anointed in Hebrew is “mashiyach” not “messu.” But even if messu does have some link the idea that Jesus Christ was based on Osiris is not supported by scripture. For one, their lives again have nothing in common. Secondly, Osiris, if you study ancient non-Christian sources is the deified King Narmer of Ancient Egypt who was none other than the Babylonian King Nimrod who conquered Egypt as part of his vast empire. Nimrod is mentioned in the Bible in Genesis 10 and many other chapters. And he is clearly an enemy of God. His efforts to make the tower of babel was thwarted by God directly. So to think that a man so clearly identified as a villain and pagan rebel in the Old Testament, is somehow the Messiah in the New Testament makes little sense.
So I think that with all due respect, these arguments are reaching. Not one of these sources provide any evidence of Biblical scholars plotting and stealing from other cultures to “create” the life of Jesus. There is more ancient manuscript evidence of the life of Jesus than any other figure in antiquity. And none of these links show even close parallels between the life of Jesus and any other figure to conclude that the Bible was copying.
Thanks again for your comments. God bless.
Beginning and End(Quote)
Also the validity of CRUC/crucifixion is questionable as the bible it self states Jesus was killed on/near a tree,which is similiar to the story,as even you stated,of Krishna being killed with under/on a tree as well!
(Acts 5.30.) (Acts 10.39.)(Acts 13.29.)(Peter 2.24.)
Also the validity of Jesus of the Bible is being questioned heavily by scholars and religious priest alike. It is proposed that much of the Gospel is false(80%) in the attributes given to Jesus/Ye-zeus!.
http://www.balikislam.com/profiles/blogs/jesus-seminar-a-200member
Western religion and philosophy is purely fabrication or plagarism to some degree if not all degrees as hist
Mac(Quote)
Beginning and End,
You stated
1.) “But first off, we should note that you make the assumption that since something is older anything similar must have stolen or been influenced by it!”
(My claim)-The argument is that the attributes of Jesus are no more than the atributes of deities that predate him,(not there exact lifestyles) and the resemblence of all religions are based off the same principle. That principle is the cosmological universe(ie the Sun,planets,forces of nature,etc) The origin of Chirst is definitely based off the personification of the Sun. This is obvious even without relation to historical references. It is no coincidence that,most,if not all religions are based on the same concepts. Question is simply which predates which,and I think we all know the Nile Valley civilization predates them all.along with the Indus valley civilization!” (Lets be precise!)
2.) You sated-
“And the only sources they cite are Jerome, who was not a Buddhist and a fragment from 278 CE, which would be over 2 centuries after Christ was on Earth!”
You are correct Jerome is not buddhist,infact he was priest of the Christian church which makes it even more interesting. Furthermore Jerome translated the bible into the Latin language,thus meaning even a christian scholar attested to the virgin birth outside of the context of Jesus!
Also the “virgin” term is stated as it relates to Buddha’s mother is likely due to a specific interpretation of the prophetic dream Queen Māyā is said to have had prior to conception! However we can no doubt note the similiarity of the Immaculate conception which is the highlight of all the births of these deities including Jesus!
“virgin”-also means pure,untouched(the mother of Buddha was untouched in her conception of Buddha thus making it a virgin(adj) birth! The meaning of virgin as you seem to imply only took form around 12/13th century!(almost synomous to the (adj) “Immaculate”)
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_virgin_mean
Etymology of virgin- “Hebraic meaning>>>>>”young woman”…had nothing to do with sex therefore you just showed a biblical error,that is if you are equating “virgin birth” with “Immaculate conception” and if you are equating Hebrew meaning of “virgin” with lack of sexual intercourse. http://www.the-goldenrule.name/Virgin_HEBREW.htm
3.)You stated ” All throughout the Old Testament the Bible distinguishes between a virgin and a woman who has had sexual relations. So this argument completely fails”
I am/was under that assumption that you were equating “virgin” with bearing a child/pregnancy without sexual union,Immaculate conception, due to the post you provided in your argument above regarding the other deities,of whom I have yet to discuss and in your rebuttal! So the topic at hand should have been the “Immaculate conception” concept though we will still deal with this “virgin” concept you claim the bible means! But please do understand that I am/was equating the birth of Jesus with the birth of Buddha as a whole in their similiarities!
4.) You stated ” Well what matters is the book of Isaiah which is where the prophecy of the Messiah being born of a virgin was written. And that was 800 years before Christ. So the Bible was still ahead of Buddhism in this regard.”
Please note the Bible has been continuously edited,changed,and revised therefore the validity of the Bible is highly questionable as it entered many European hands. Therefore my claim is also that the Bible is not a valid source of historical information. So what reason do I have to not assume this meant the birth of Buddha or any other of the deities who predates Jesus,since the claim is that it happen with them and also considering the bible was re-written multiple times before becoming what it is today,using information found in earlier religious text? Futhtermore,it seems you are using the bible as a historical reference. This is a no-no! Too many inaccuracies and plagarized stories (but thats another topic which we can deal with as well).
5.) You stated ”
I admit I am not familiar with this argument at all. But it seems to imply from your source that “Messu” is the word for Messiah in Hebrew and that was based on an old Egyptian reference to a mummy, and the original mummy Osiris. Well I will say first off the word for anointed in Hebrew is “mashiyach” not “messu.”
POINT:-Here you overlooked a few things.One being the root word mes and MAS which is the first three letters of the word “Mashiyach”(mashiach) which stills means “annoint/annointed” or to smear with oil/etc. Secondly these terms,mes/mas/messu/krst are stated to have existed on the Hieroglyphs which predate any Hebraic text. This is irrefutable!!
Futher elaboration on the meaning of “the annointed/annoint” and its practice>>http://www.wordnik.com/words/karast
Also the term is most commonly “mashiach” still containing the Egyptian “Mas” >>>http://www.wenstrom.org/downloads/written/word_studies/greek/christos.pdf
6.) You stated ” But even if messu does have some link the idea that Jesus Christ was based on Osiris is not supported by scripture. For one, their lives again have nothing in common. Secondly, Osiris, if you study ancient non-Christian sources is the deified King Narmer of Ancient Egypt who was none other than the Babylonian King Nimrod who conquered Egypt as part of his vast empire. Nimrod is mentioned in the Bible in Genesis 10 and many other chapters. And he is clearly an enemy of God. His efforts to make the tower of babel was thwarted by God directly. So to think that a man so clearly identified as a villain and pagan rebel in the Old Testament, is somehow the Messiah in the New Testament makes little sense.”
In the above passage you equated Jesus Christ with Osiris(which is ok to a degree) but then you equated Osiris with Narmer(totally incorrect and displays a huge misunderstanding of Egyptan literature) Osiris was not Narmer,if this is what you are implying and you provided no source for this claim,and then you equate Narmer with Messiah(this is not my claim nor my source’s claim)
Osiris-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris
And we have yet to dive into the other deities however it seems that this shouldnt be needed!
Mac(Quote)
Welcome back! Let’s continue:
1. “(My claim)-The argument is that the attributes of Jesus are no more than the atributes of deities that predate him,(not there exact lifestyles) and the resemblence of all religions are based off the same principle. That principle is the cosmological universe(ie the Sun,planets,forces of nature,etc) ”
Do you have any evidence or proof of the “principle of the cosmological universe”? This sounds more like theory/speculation than anything with backed by hard evidence.
Furthermore, you are still falling back on this idea that “older means it must have been plagiarized” which clearly does not hold up under scrutiny (as the article demonstrates).
“The origin of Chirst is definitely based off the personification of the Sun. This is obvious even without relation to historical references”
No it isn’t. And it is just not productive to offer historical references to show this. When especially I can show the opposite. You keep saying things “predate Christ” without taking into account the Old Testament. As per the Old testament, the fist civilization originated in Mesopotamia, where any secular source will confirm is the oldest civilization (not Egypt). So God and his followers pre-date Egypt. And now for this “sun = Jesus”, again I will just show where the Bible clearly refutes this:
“Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations than these. 16 And he brought me into the inner court of the Lord’s house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east. 17 Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. 18 Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.” – Ezekiel 8.
Unequivocally, sun worship was an ABOMINATION to the Lord. It invoked his anger and wrath.
Another example:
Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female..And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.” – Deuteronomy 4.
So again, the worship of the sun (Egypt), moon (Islam), stars (pagan/withcraft), was clearly forbidden. The Bible is well aware that people were worshiping the sun and God said “do NOT do any of these abominations that those people are doing.” It can’t be more clear.
2) Buddha born of a virgin — “You are correct Jerome is not buddhist,infact he was priest of the Christian church which makes it even more interesting. Furthermore Jerome translated the bible into the Latin language,thus meaning even a christian scholar attested to the virgin birth outside of the context of Jesus!
Also the “virgin” term is stated as it relates to Buddha’s mother is likely due to a specific interpretation of the prophetic dream Queen Māyā is said to have had prior to conception! However we can no doubt note the similiarity of the Immaculate conception which is the highlight of all the births of these deities including Jesus!
“virgin”-also means pure,untouched(the mother of Buddha was untouched in her conception of Buddha thus making it a virgin(adj) birth! The meaning of virgin as you seem to imply only took form around 12/13th century!(almost synomous to the (adj) “Immaculate”)”
First off, in Buddhist texts themselves it denies the virgin birth of Buddha. Your own source says this. Secondly, Jerome did translate the Bible, but he is no prophet or Apostle. He’s just a man who had no divine inspiration. And thus he is fallible. Just as much as people who believe prosperity Gospel or Mormons, etc. They are incorrect in their theology. That doesn’t disprove the Gospels.
3) “Virgin” — Here are the rules for priests straight from Leviticus 21: “And he shall take a wife in her virginity. 14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.”
Clearly the implication here is sexual, not referring to age.
“If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour’s wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.” – Deuteronomy 22.
“If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.” — Deuteronomy 22.
Context, context, context. This is how you properly interpret the text. In the context of the Bible, virgin clearly means a woman who has not had sex.
4) The Book of Isaiah — “Please note the Bible has been continuously edited,changed,and revised therefore the validity of the Bible is highly questionable as it entered many European hands. Therefore my claim is also that the Bible is not a valid source of historical information. ”
And here you are incorrect as I will just direct you to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the greatest literary find of antiquity. The manuscripts of the Old Testament were found dating back to 168 BC, before they ever touched “European hands.” And the consistency between those texts and the previously-oldest manuscripts from 1400 AD was 99%. And the book of Isaiah specifically is held out as the example of how similar they are. http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=357
This is why textual criticism is so important. When we examine manuscripts and the history behind them, these issues become easy to resolve. On the flip side, we have no ancient documents from Buddha’s lifetime. The oldest manuscripts are from over 600 years after Buddha’s death, are in fragments and have been in those dreaded “European hands” you say alter everything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandh%C4%81ran_Buddhist_Texts
5) Mes/messu/mas — Even if the word “annointed” existed in another culture, why would that mean that the life of Jesus Christ was copied from ancient Egypt? Especially when Egypt has no god who a life anything remotely similar to that of Jesus? It just doesn’t follow logically.
As for Nimrod being Osiris, I would really suggest you look into this more. There is a great deal of evidence to support this, and the wikipedia entry on Osiris does not even look into this question. I would strongly recommend the Giza Discovery by Peter Goodgame which provides a treasure trove of evidence, academic sources and links to support this:
http://www.redmoonrising.com/Giza/index2.htm
Thanks again for your comments. I can really see your passion for these issues of history. I hope and pray that your passion for your eternal destiny is just the same. So are you a Buddhist or believer in Egyptian religions?
Beginning and End(Quote)
Im unable to post my rebuttal it seems!! Its very detailed!
Mac(Quote)
Thanks for the reply: Lets make it happen!
POINT 1
You stated “Do you have any evidence or proof of the “principle of the cosmological universe”? This sounds more like theory/speculation than anything with backed by hard evidence.”
I state-”Yes walk outside. However literary proof? Definitely! You would have to read sources that deal with the chronology of human migration and monuments or stone evidence that exist,which show the obvious worship of the cosmos with the Sun being the most respected! There are countless amount of evidence that shows the migration of life began in Africa migrating to all other parts of the world,including the so-called “Middle East” and mesopatamian region. These individuals were no more than migrated African peoples as was the people of the Indus Valley! Even in Meso-America there exist the African prescence. All of which predate the biblical civilizations you speak of! The article provided in point #2 deals with this as well(http://africanblackrenaissance.blogspot.com/)
Here is a detailed article which deals with the African(Egpytian) origin of the Indus Valley and also the true origin of Buddha before Aryan invasion and plagarizing of the concept of Buddhism,thus providing the obvious gateway of migration of religions concepts in other regions of the world.>>>http://tseday.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/the-african-presence-in-india-by-runoko-rashidi/
More proof that Africans migrated East,obviously moving across the eastern region of Mesopatamia towards the Indus region. It would only make sense that they settled in mesopatamia. http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/india/history/harappa.htm
All people of the planet have been anthropologically proved to have been no more than migrated Africans who,after migrating to different regions,suffered changes in their anatomy,lifestyle,diet,etc due to climatic changes in their environment. This inlcudes Europeans(migrated Africans who loss their melanated qualities due to Glacial Ages of the Earth) Below is basically a picture of the world’s ancestor! You should research Chiek Anta Diop’s work!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations
Article on the African prescence in Meso-America!Worshippers of the cosmos! >>>>http://www.theperspective.org/olmecs.html
Pic of African priest in the MesoAmericas>>>3100 years before Christ…why doesnt the Bible mention the people of this region as well? Also be advise this obliferates the notion Columbous discovered America and that Europeans traveled the waters first(technology)*yes im aware this in not your claim
IRREFUTABLE…(this is more history the bible doesnt account for. I warned you that you couldnt use the bible to validate history. Also a scholar named Dr. Walter Williams states that the Bible is no more than fabricated history of the Europeans in which they constructed to place their selves in history. Hence all biblical characters have been given Europeans images,most if not all! This he states was done after the Europeans were re-taught by the Moors to read and write thus taking the Europeans out of the Dark Ages and into the Renaissance Era. One of the worst thing to happen to the Bible was the printing press created by Johannes Gutenburg in the 15 century but confiscated Johanne Fust due to Gutneburg’s inability to pay moneys owed. This was viewed as a problem by Christian leaders because it meant common people would soon have their hands on the Bible,therefore it would no longer be limited to priest or kings,etc. Thus you will notice the Europeans rushing their translations of the Bible,the disputes of which is the correct one…etc.
(But this is another story)
CONTINUED BELOW
Mac(Quote)
POINT 2-
You stated “As per the Old testament, the fist civilization originated in Mesopotamia, where any secular source will confirm is the oldest civilization (not Egypt). So God and his followers pre-date Egypt!”
The above point was just obliferated the above pics and articles mentioned in POINT 1.
However a couple of other points! The Sphinx,which according to multiple sources,one of which I will leave with you is now being found to date back to as far 10,000b.c which predates any biblical history and civilization you use the bible to validate. Be advised,no uncivilized group could build the Sphinx with such mathmatical proportion to the cosmos! Here is just one article on the subject matter>>>http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/parade/henryr/quest/sphinx/e
I am under the impression that the forefront of Egyptology,the western world,are going to do everything possible to keep Egyptian/Nile Valley history in co-relation with biblical text,though its becoming increasingly undeniable and too late, so that history doesnt have to be re-written which is evident in the above article. Egyptian chronology was created through Manethos,not the bible! But lets not get off subject here!
More info that shows civilized people prior to biblical chronology..THIS is IRREFUTABLE>> The badarian people ,who gave birth to the Egyptian civilization, who also practiced an obvious civilized lifestyle. Predates biblical civiilization!
http://wysinger.homestead.com/badarians.html (And have yet to provide my ultimate sources because their context is provided in books which cannot be read over the internet)
Thus the biblical history you are using as a shield is shattered versus tangible evidence presented in my sources! I could go all day on this subject. It is a ridiculous thing to use the bible to verify history in accordance with anthropological and scientfic evidence.
Further more the civilization of Ta-Seti,also found in africa,primarily Ethiopia,predates civilization in the bible as well(ie Sumererian)
http://africanblackrenaissance.blogspot.com/
More articles that speak of civilizations that predate biblical civilizations>>>http://shazlyasmail.tripod.com/new_page_20.htm
And a very detailed article…VERY INTERESTING READ AS WELL..speaks of civlizations from Africas that predate biblical scripture>>>http://shazlyasmail.tripod.com/new_page_20.htm
All these groups are shown to have birth the civilizations of Egypt or along the Nile Valley,I should say. Also note they were all what you would call worshippers of the heaven! I could go all day on this subject. So again the bible should not be used to verify history cause EVEN if its used ITS MISSING A WHOLE PLETHRA OF HISTORY,which it cannot account for!
POINT 3
You stated “First off, in Buddhist texts themselves it denies the virgin birth of Buddha. Your own source says this. Secondly, Jerome did translate the Bible, but he is no prophet or Apostle. He’s just a man who had no divine inspiration. And thus he is fallible!”
a.)My source stated MOST,not ALL, Buddhist do not accept the virgin birth concept. Also my source state”The “virgin” term as it relates to Buddha’s mother is likely due to a specific interpretation of the prophetic dream Queen Māyā is said to have had prior to conception!” Also my source mentioned in POINT 1 clearly shows the concept of Buddha is African,before Buddha was given an Aryan image and before the doctrine of Buddha changed!
b.)Again Jerome is a well known scholar and widely accepted for his scholarship in translating the very scripture you are using to verify history.I cannot understand this. This is equivalent to saying you use Microsoft software,but refuse to pay proper respect to the very man who was extemely important in its successs,Bill Gates! He didnt invent computer software,but he translated it into a usable language! Therefore you denounce your own Christian forefather,theologian and historian! I take it you havent read up on him!
POINT 4
You stated ”
“Virgin” — Here are the rules for priests straight from Leviticus 21: “And he shall take a wife in her virginity. 14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.”
POINT-Clearly the implication here is sexual, not referring to age.” This does not disprove my sources which stated “virgin” as marriageagle woman,young woman! This text almost clearly shows the virgin to be unwedded or not of any husband,therefore marriageable as a widowed or divorce woman could not be taken because they have already been married! What reason would one have to not believe this? Again re-read the source as it provides passages from the very bible you are using validate reality,only its much more detailed>>>>>>http://www.the-goldenrule.name/Virgin_HEBREW.htm (its extremely clear)
Futthermore it seems you overlook the etymology of word virgin and how it became to be used in relation to sex in the 12th century.again>>http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=virgin
POINT 5
You stated ” The Book of Isaiah —
And here you are incorrect as I will just direct you to the Dead Sea Scrolls, the greatest literary find of antiquity. The manuscripts of the Old Testament were found dating back to 168 BC, before they ever touched “European hands.” And the consistency between those texts and the previously-oldest manuscripts from 1400 AD was 99%. And the book of Isaiah specifically is held out as the example of how similar they are….”
Who found it?
POINT 6
You stated “why would that mean that the life of Jesus Christ was copied from ancient Egypt? Especially when Egypt has no god who a life anything remotely similar to that of Jesus? It just doesn’t follow logically. ”
I never said the LIFE of Jesus was copied from ancient Egypt. Lets not be deceptive on our play of words. I clearly stated on July 8,2012 @1:46
“I dont claim that there full lives in every single,accurate aspect was similiar but I do believe and am convinced through numerous amounts of study that one is no more than imported/exported or adopted ideologies of another!(Ie Jesus consist of plagarized ideas of older deities such as Horus/Heru,Krishna,Buddha,Osiris/Asar,Mitras,etc)!”
However please read the following article which St. Augustine,an early forefather of the very Christian religion you glorify,states blantaly and clearly that Christianity is an already used concept 3000 years prior to Jesus/Iesous/>>>>>http://www.scribd.com/doc/12761150/Augustine-Speaks-of-a-Christianity-Before-Christ
Also on the validity of Jesus and his life is being question now by religious scholars and priest>>>http://www.balikislam.com/profiles/blogs/jesus-seminar-a-200member
CONTINUED
Mac(Quote)
POINT 7
You stated “As for Nimrod being Osiris, I would really suggest you look into this more. There is a great deal of evidence to support this, and the wikipedia entry on Osiris does not even look into this question. I would strongly recommend the Giza Discovery by Peter Goodgame which provides a treasure trove of evidence, academic sources and links to support this:”
POINT-The link you provided me was very vague. Its obvious you havent thoroughly,if at all,researched the history of Asar/Osiris because if you did,you would find that he predates Menes/Narmer/him you call Nimrod. The legend of Osiris was preserved in the Ethiopian Empire which spread up to the Egyptian lands!
My article in POINT 1 provides this information,however here is another one,which shows evidence that Asar/Osirius was being worshipped prior to Narmer/Nimrod…and please note Nimrod/Narmer never married Isis and never had a son named Horus..Asar/Osiris represents a cosmic force as do the others PLEASE READ>>>http://blackhistory.topcities.com/africapart5.html (Im aware there are articles that made the same faulty assumption you did but there is too much evidence to support the latter..including oral testimony from the indigenous Dogon Tribe)
A PIC OF THE INCENT BURNER HE’S REFERRING TO…that is if you read the article above.
More info on Asar as a cosmological force…http://books.google.com/books?id=dbekMz1NYUcC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=asar+represents&source=bl&ots=QaRsd3qGDU&sig=mMzpPtPOyqRcrN7PwLS71Ekce1Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1y0EUOfEBcmi2gWL0dmhCw&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=asar%20represents&f=false
Again Asar predates Menes. Her is an article in which there is evidence that support the reality that Asar was present in the land of Anu prior to Menes reign in 1st dynastic period of Egypt!>>http://gigalresearch.com/uk/publications-pharaohs.php
POINT 8
You asked”So are you a Buddhist or believer in Egyptian religions?
Hahahaha! I dont understand your question.There is no category I claim to fit in outside of “Human being”,student of history and student of science. Categorizing will not be necessary! However I will await your rebuttal and leave you this enormous amount of evidence in hopes that you enjoy the read and weigh the evidence! This subject matter can get very lengthy but I dont have the time I need and want to totally obliferate these claims you made in your article. Because be mindful we have just discussed Buddha only and have yet to
1.) dive into the reality of other deities
2.) provide details on the origin of Christianity among the Greeks and Romans
3.) dive into the councils that provided the reality of Jesus and his divinity and Mary becoming the Theotokus
4.) to deal with the worship of Oserapis/Asar-Apis/Osiris-Apis by Romans and Greeks of the 1st century
5.) deal with a deeper understanding into the etymology of names and words(even those of bible) of ancient times as they relate to modern times
6.) deal with the history of the translation of the Bible in deeper detail
7.) deal with history of the Moors.
8.) deal with more evident proof that civilizations across the world worshipping cosmological forces prior to and around the time of biblical history
9.) deal with symbology(a language in it self) as it relates to today versus ancient times(ie the cross,ankh,etc)
10.) deal with a plethra of other issues
11.)
unfortunately I dont have enought time!
ENJOY!!
Mac(Quote)
This page contains the picture of the proposed ancestor of the world(one of them). Please note I could not post the picture in the space provided so here is the link..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homo_erectus.JPG
Here is a pic of priest head dated around 1100b.c. which validates the claim of an african prescence in Meso-americans around the time the time of Narmer/Nimrod mention in my post in POINT 1
for which the bible doesn account for…the calender the Olmecs provided are said to date back to 3113bc >>http://www.theperspective.org/olmecs.html
Also here is the link to the incent burner mentioned in POINT 7 which shows proof that Asar was praised in the regions outside of Egypt prior to the reign of Menes/Nimrod ..therefore Osiris is not Nimrod http://originalblackthought.blogspot.com/2009/06/they-hail-from-south-qustul-censer.html
Mac(Quote)
Hey Mac,
Sorry for the long delay in our discussion. As our reader Brandon pointed out, I ended the discussion without ever replying to your last set of posts. The reason I took the break is that we got way off track from the topic – that is, was Jesus a copy of the histories/myths of pagan gods? I think that you are getting more into a discussion of the historic accomplishments of African nations. While that is interesting (I own a copy of “They Came Before Columbus” which goes into much of what you reference) it does not prove or disprove the subject of the article.
if you have evidence or articles about Christians copying from other faiths to write the New Testament gospel accounts, please provide some and I will be glad to look at it. God bless.
Beginning and End(Quote)
Olmec head…sorry bout the last post in which I mistakenly posted article on the calender instead of the Olmec head>>>>http://2012.caliwali.com/theolmecs.htm
Mac(Quote)
Mac, your patience and dedication are inspiring, wonderful job. I could’t bring myself to dedicate my time to proving something here that has been proven thousands of times before.Aparently, even when you provide the evidence requested you are still wrong. That is called fanatic belief, you simply will never win, because at the end of the day, they will play the faith card and, well it’s hard to debate something that cant be proven to begin with. If you receive notice to this post, would you mind if I try to give you my contact information? I would love to invite you to do a phone interview for a small show I host. I love the fact that you not only research but have the patience to deal with… whatever this page is. great work and let me know, I think you would enjoy the work we do.
Dr. O(Quote)
A good, severe, solid and well-documented answer to quite hard a issue that Zeitgeist claimed when it bursted out and seduced so many young people out there.
But let this comment be my chance to point out something intrinsic about religion:
The stories told in the Bible – and many other religious texts – are not to be taken too strongly as matter of [historical] fact! So please: every occhamist anglophones who fall so often victims of this lack of sharpness in spirit should remember the lightness of legends and their messages, the beauty of literature and its rhetoric charm… instead of letting their mind lock themselves into obnoxious arguments and deaf opinions.
I know I am nothing but a reader. But so many times I’ve seen stupidity into such businesses.
OB
OBinetti(Quote)
Keep it simple..
“The Origin of Life–Five Questions Worth Asking”
http://www.jw.org/apps/index.html?fileformat=PDF&output=html&pub=lf&langwritten=E&option=TRGCHlZRQVNYVrXF&txtCMSLang=E
“The Bible–What Is Its Message?”
http://www.jw.org/apps/index.html?fileformat=PDF&output=html&pub=bm&langwritten=E&option=TRGCHlZRQVNYVrXF&txtCMSLang=E
“What Does the Bible Really Teach?”
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/is-this-what-god-purposed/
(including Appendices on the right-hand-side of page)
Nuff said…
Dr. A.(Quote)
You’ll find that although you are mostly right especially by pointing out the inconsistencies in the book and the documentary, many of the stories “evolved” over time. Some believe that the encient gods were re-written by different cultures overtime infact there is large amounts of evidence found by simply doing a google search or researching through adequite sources. For example: Horus represented Apollo in Greek mythology and Ra represented Helios. Over time and human evolution throughout Greek times and into Roman times where Apollo was still worshiped untill Christianity arrived, Apollo’s image/statue was replaced by the image of god, not jesus … god, the father of jesus. another is the Goddess Selene was evolved into Diana in roman mythology, there is evidence to suggest this did actually occure with other gods, so why not Jesus? and I would safley say the church would have done anything in their power to conceal evidence of Jesus comming from other stories although jesus himself i believe did infact exist – of course!
I’m not saying Jesus didnt exist, but I certianly believe that the enormous amount of evidince that I have read over the years has lead me to understand that many of jesus stories where originated by evolving stories from other religions, not all but many of them are, some slightly changed. It’s kind of like chinese whispers, but over thousands of years. the churched, including other religions, needed to, as they have over time always replaced the predessing religion with the new, if you look in meso-america it is also a classic example of how the eurpoeans populated the meso-american cultures with christian stories, where many cities and religious shrines where buried and churches built over the top. This also occured in England when christianity spread through Europe. These actions are apart of the overall evidence I have learned.
But I like your story and your evedience, have you ever looked at the actual connections too? not just the questionable ones you’ve pointed out from a book and a film? but others?
good luck and good read
Griffo(Quote)
Hi Griffo,
Thanks very much for your comment and the kind words. As for other “connections” I have looked at many and what you will find is that most religions and mythologies trace back to Nimrod of Babylon, someone who in the Bible is clearly depicted as evil, a rebel, and pagan idolater. He is the actual basis for numerous dieties. And Jesus Christ has no connection to him.
You wrote: “I’m not saying Jesus didnt exist, but I certianly believe that the enormous amount of evidince that I have read over the years has lead me to understand that many of jesus stories where originated by evolving stories from other religions, not all but many of them are, some slightly changed”
So what evidence have you found of Christians copying the story of Jesus’ life from another religion? Please share your findings. Thanks again for your comments and I look forward to continuing the discussion, God bless.
Beginning and End(Quote)
Such arrogance as you exhibit it seems easy to come by these days.
Speaking for God, interpreting and ignoring only the items that would respectively help and harm your case.
None of this “origin of the story” research even matters.
There is nothing supernatural looking out for anyone. Here’s my proof:
1) while you may be doing well each day, able to blog your righteous heart out, thousands of faithful people who are more devout than you are going to starve tonight, watch their children die, and will not have prayers answered that their step parent not come into their room and beat them in a drunken rage.
2) priests have been raping children in their parishes. This is a fact. The Catholic Church has known about this because at least one priest begged his bishop to help him. Their response was to RELOCATE THIS SICK DEGENERATE to another parish… Where he did it again to several more children. The bishop moved him again, where the cycle of sexual abuse continued to a total of six parishes. These children were members of the church, who trusted this man of god, His representative, and were given no protection from this omnipotent being. And the fact that the priest continued and the bishop acted dismissively without any apparent fear of divine retribution tells me that THEY THEMSELVES didn’t believe God was there to mete out a very deserved punishment. God has killed people just for turning around to look at a burning city when he said not to. Did this abhorrent act not warrant even a shaker of salt?
3) if someone tells you that God speaks to them, not through symbols or burnt toast, but that he hears Gods voice in his head, your inclination will inexorably come to the correct supposition that this person is hallucinating. Why? God used to talk to us all the time, so why not believe he is having a discussion with the guy down the block? Because, when you get down to it, you are all fearful doubters afraid to linger on that thought. You would be correct to assume delusion in the pt with auditory hallucination.
Where a story comes from matters as much as who made the car that ran over your dog.
Don’t respond, just reflect.
David(Quote)
A really good link showing Nimrod to be the starter of the pagan Mother/Child false trinity http://www.thephiladelphiafaith.org/antichrist/2_mystery_babylon/antichrist_myst_bab_nimrod_father_of_harlots_good.html
S.W.(Quote)
There’s so much illuminati and corruption everywhere
Should Hold on to Christ.. He’s coming soon
God bless u <3
Yumm(Quote)
Beginning and End. Your article was remarkable. Thank you.
Mac(Quote)
No one seems to know that the Bibles new testament was written by the greeks, and what did they believe in? They traded knowledge with Egyptians. Horus Seth and all those Egyptian gods are the star consolations, not real beings. Horus the rising sun, Seth, the setting sun. This is fact. To trace a religions stories, just go deeper into your research. Pastors who go to schools for this, learn this. Biggest question you have to ask yourself is why are you a Christian if “Jesus” wasn’t. And how could his name be Jesus when the letter I didn’t appear to around the 1500′s. All man are sons of God. The story of the Bible is older then the age of Jesus. Adam and eve were a population of people. Christians forth christianity on people, killed, chopped of heads and placed them on beaches of Africa. what religion is so arrogant to believe you can live a life time full of sin and find God and be forgiven. I hope many have more good deeds then bad on their life line. Take the major words from the Bible, find their origin and the proof is in the pudding. May the highest gods bless you all.
Donell(Quote)
Hi Donell,
Thanks very much for your comments. Given this topic, it’s really important to provide some evidence of these assertions of historical events. The New Testament was not written by Greeks. It was written by Jewish men from the province of Judea in the Roman Empire. It just so happened that Greek was the predominate language of the world at that time and in that area, but the New testament authors were not from Greece or of Greek descent.
You say they “traded knowledge with the Egyptians”. I am not sure what you are trying to assert here nor am I sure of what evidence of this you are looking at. All throughout Scripture, Egypt is literally and symbolically portrayed as representative of the sinful, rebellious world. Hebrews 11 praises the faith of Moses for leaving Egypt to stand with God’s people. Egypt is constantly a contrast to those who are faithful to the true and living God of the Bible. So to think that the Bible is based on Egyptian mystery religion or culture is not really logical or supported by the Biblical text.
Jesus was not Christian — Jesus preached that He was the Messiah –
This is just one of the statements in which Jesus establishes Christianity – which is based on faith in Himself. This is not Judaism. This is not the Mosaic law. Jesus is stating unequivocally that unless you believe in Him, you will go to Hell. Jesus secured salvation by dying on the cross and His shed blood, which He called “the New Testament” which is another term for covenant. Meaning it is replacing the Old Covenant (Mosaid law). So while it may seem like Jesus was a Jew, He preached something far different from the Old Testament law.
The “J” in Jesus – As we already discussed, the New Testament was written in Greek, not English. So Jesus is just a transliteration of his Greek name, Iesous, made for English speakers. In Yoruba it’s Jesu. In Samoan it’s Iesu. All of this is based on the Greek. And before you think that Jesus did not speak or read Greek, consider that over 90% of the quotes from the Old Testament by Jesus and the Apostles are from the Septuagint, the Bible of that day in Judea. And it was written in Greek.
And let’s not forget Jesus said: “I am ALPHA and OMEGA” again showing that He spoke Greek and even gave Himself a Greek name.
Christians beheading Africans – When was this? I am not sure what you are referring to.
Finally, you mention doing “good deeds.” I know this is basically what every religion in the world except for Christianity preaches. The thing is, you accuse Christianity of being arrogant because we believe we can live a life full of sin and be forgiven. But you are the one who believes that you have it in your own power to redeem yourself for the lifetime of sins you have committed. Christianity is all about humility before God. It is about telling God “I can’t save myself. I cannot do anything to redeem myself. I cannot atone for my own clear sin. I am powerless and deserve your wrath and damnation because I am guilty.” It is at this point that we recognize the need for our Savior, Jesus Christ. And it is through putting our faith and trust in what Jesus did to redeem us that saves us. not out own actions or “goodness.” And this is how we become Christians. I just wanted to clarify.
Beginning and End(Quote)
I am a follower of Jesus and I am a big believer. I read this entire post and spent a lot of time rereading it. Dr O did nothing to challenge me. However I was inticed to think about things by Mac. I was very disappointed that you stopped responding to him. I agree he did win the debate regarding prior civilizations and religions before the time of Jesus and or the Old Testament. Or did he? Even if he did I do not see how he proved Jesus was made up or not real. And I have yet to see proof Jesus was created from some prior figure. Also he stated that the historical accounts of Jesus in that Jewish history document was false and you said nothing to that. So are they? You both started a long argument of Buddha and other religions timelines that have nothing to do with whether Jesus was real or not. I want to see evidence from Mac that Jesus was made up…..
Brandon(Quote)
Hi Brandon,
Thanks so much for your comment! I indeed did not intend to end the debate with Mac but it was getting very, very sidetracked. As you correctly pointed out, he started turning the discussion into a “who was the first civilization” and facts about ancient African culture and history that while interesting, are not relevant to the discussion at hand – namely, was Jesus a copy of pagan gods. So that is why I took a break from the discussion. But I will respond to Mac and see if he wants to re-center the discussion and get back on topic.
You also very accurately point out that Mac has provided no evidence whatsoever that of Christians copying the story of Jesus’ life from other pagan religions.
Thanks for the reminder and God bless!
Beginning and End(Quote)
If you are a Christian. This entire ‘blog’ is a farce. Were you there? Did you witness all these events? Because you read something somewhere and your OPINION is that it is true does not make it so. Unless you were there to bare witness, im sorry, but you have 0 valid points.
Imsorryforyourfaith(Quote)
Thank you for responding back to me and for this website in general. I found this blog of yours because one night I was just trying to google information from those who think Jesus is fake to see if there was something I may look into and the only eye opener I found was the Zeitgeist video about the pagan gods. It actually stopped me in my tracks because I never heard those theories before. Needless to say you proved how non credible that video was and also how uncredible they are. Not that I already knew. I am glad you are doing this so non believers can read and have an educated look at Jesus. Of course there will ALWAYS be those who are too ignorant, scared, or doomed to believe but also thank you for responding to them with kindness like you do. It shows the true christian way to go about it. God bless you also
Brandon(Quote)
I would like imsorryforyourfaith to answer this please. Does he believe in anything prior to his birthday? Because he wasnt there. Or lets go a step further to give him credit. Does he believe anything before cameras, pictures, etc were created? Because those things he cannot see! If he does then he should know that makes him a hypocrit for believing in anything prior to 1840 while making non educated and rash remarks like the one above.
Brandon(Quote)
this was a great article , though i dint belive zeitgiest i cudnt assume yours to be perfectly sane …
1. you have quoted researchers who have contexted myths to their view points based not based on exhaustive analysis.
2. youve asked for proofs and analysis , neither do u have.
3. youve taken points from bible to be true … i am thinking you,re yet another bible school dropout.lol
4. something that you might already know , is that you and i are safe of feel so due to something called conscioisness , especially guilty conciousness .. which prevents ppl from crimes n their concioisness knows its going to be terrible after commiting , but if u or as per you christianity propogates and claims that even if someone commit sin and ask for repentence and he gives .. bam ! so now i get all those killings.so easy hun !
5. hindu and buddhist texts shud never be reffered for english translations . their meanings differ .
6. im not a follower of christ but i oly dont believe false claims , humiliating other religion and shoving others to be small !
god bless
rejo(Quote)
Rejo,
Yahushuah became a one time offering instead
Of Us, in place of Us to remove the Death Penalty
For the willful, Rebelious, Intentional Sins we
Have committed. A truly, genuinely repented
Heart who comes to Love Yahuwah wholeheartedly
Would never commit the same INTENTIONAL,
WILLFUL, REBELIOUS SIN. Otherwise, the offering
Is no longer available for such a sin. Romans 13:2
Clearly states the fact;
Hebrews 10:26-31;
28 Someone who disregards the Torah of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses.[b] 29 Think how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God; who has treated as something common the blood of the covenant[c] which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of God’s grace!
30 For the One we know is the One who said,
“Vengeance is my responsibility;
I will repay,”
and then said,
“Adonai will judge his people.”[d]
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
So your assertion A REDDEEMED person can go ahead
And murder someone and then ask for FORGIVNESS and
Face no consequences is incorrect.
Now, there is also an unintentional sin, which
a person did not commit intentionally for which
animals and other things were offered to remit it
is the one a person can ask Yahuwah directly
for forgivness. Yahushuah’s Desth negated the need for
Sacrificial system for Unintentional sin. It will be restored
when Third Temple will be rebuild, however.
Shalom.
TruthSeeker(Quote)
Pardon! I have left out TWO VERSES from Hebrews
10. And they ARE VERY Important When it comes
To willful sin;
Hebrews 10:26-27;
26 For if DELIBERATELY CONTINUE TO SIN after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, of raging fire that will consume the enemies.[a]
TruthSeeker(Quote)
I am being told that Jesus did not exist. That he was a made up character in 390AD. From all that you have said, It seems like one myth attacking another myth. You said there are thousands of historical writings which show Jesus lived and was crucified. Please bring this evidence so we can end this myth attack stuff.
Amen Rahh(Quote)
hello there and thank you for your information –
I have certainly picked up something new from right here.
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Ensure that you update this again soon.
http://architecture.kunsan.ac.kr/far/172(Quote)
Some one else posted this. I was not me. Im nor sure who is posing as me in the forum but I did not post anything to the effect of this article being remarkable. I have yet to post my continuing argument,or presentation of facts.
Mac(the real one)(Quote)
Thanks for the acknowledgment. The information originally present was to show how history and the bible are independent of each other. We cannot use a book that hardly has an author to validate historical facts. This is not accepted in the world of scholarship and the bible is not included as a credible source in the realm of history. The information I presented in regards to Buddha was to show that he was born of what was claimed tot be a virgin,not in the sense of sexual intercourse,as that meaning came in the 14-15th century many years aftter the New Testament was supposedly constructed.. I provided the source and all. After doing such then it should have been clear that the misconception depicted here is that virgin refers to no sexual intercourse as this is untrue in early history, After knocking down that gate,we then open up the reality of how their were other divine mothers referred to as virgins including Isis.. The presentation also showed or demonstrated how earlier cultures that have existed since the beginning had a deep and profound respect for the cosmos,as they knew this was the source of creation as science has CONFIRMED here now in modern times. Hence it was pure in nature until the arrival of primitive minded groups who would soon turn cosmic forces into the personification of a human being. Mind you that all cultures had the SAME perspective in religious ideology,until arrival of the said Iesous or Yeshua which has been propragagted by this said group. In proving my point,I like to cover as much ground as possible,so that i leave no leaks in my presentation.
Mac(the real one)(Quote)
In response to Mac(the real one):
“earlier cultures that have existed since the beginning had a deep and profound respect for the cosmos, as they knew this was the source of creation as science has CONFIRMED here now in modern times. Hence it was pure in nature until the arrival of the said Iesous or Yeshua which has been propagated by this said group.”
“He who loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.” (Prov 12:1)
“knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something , he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.” (1 Cor 8:1-4)
1 Foolish by nature were all who were in ignorance of God,
and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing the one who is,
and from studying the works did not discern the artisan;
2 Instead either fire, or wind, or the swift air,
or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water,
or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods.
3 Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods,
let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these;
for the original source of beauty fashioned them.
4 Or if they were struck by their might and energy,
let them realize from these things how much more powerful is the one who made them.
5 For from the greatness and the beauty of created things
their original author, by analogy, is seen.
6 But yet, for these the blame is less;
For they have gone astray perhaps,
though they seek God and wish to find him.
7 For they search busily among his works,
but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair.
8 But again, not even these are pardonable.
9 For if they so far succeeded in knowledge
that they could speculate about the world,
how did they not more quickly find its Lord?
10 But wretched are they, and in dead things are their hopes,
who termed gods things made by human hands:
Gold and silver, the product of art, and images of beasts,
or useless stone, the work of an ancient hand. (Wis 13:1-10)
1 John 4:7-21(Quote)
THE ORIGIN AND EVILS OF IDOLATRY
12 For the source of wantonness is the devising of idols; and their invention, a corruption of life. 13 For in the beginning they were not, nor can they ever continue; 14 for from human emptiness they came into the world, and therefore a sudden end is devised for them. 15 For a father, afflicted with untimely mourning, made an image of the child so quickly taken from him, And now honored as a god what once was dead and handed down to his household mysteries and sacrifices. 16 Then, in the course of time, the impious practice gained strength and was observed as law, and graven things were worshiped by royal decrees. 17 People who lived so far away that they could not honor him in his presence copied the appearance of the distant king
And made a public image of him they wished to honor,
out of zeal to flatter the absent one as though present. 18 And to promote this observance among those to whom it was strange, the artisan’s ambition provided a stimulus. 19 For he, perhaps in his determination to please the ruler, labored over the likeness to the best of his skill; 20 And the masses, drawn by the charm of the workmanship, soon took as an object of worship the one who shortly before was honored as a human being. 23 And this became a snare for the world, that people enslaved to either grief or tyranny conferred the incommunicable Name on stones and wood. 22 Then it was not enough for them to err in their knowledge of God; but even though they live in a great war resulting from ignorance, they call such evils peace. 23 For while they practice either child sacrifices or occult mysteries, or frenzied carousing in exotic rites, 24 They no longer respect either lives or purity of marriage; but they either waylay and kill each other, or aggrieve each other by adultery. 25 And all is confusion—blood and murder, theft and guile, corruption, faithlessness, turmoil, perjury, 26 Disturbance of good people, neglect of gratitude, besmirching of souls, unnatural lust, disorder in marriage, adultery and shamelessness. 27 For the worship of infamous idols is the reason and source and extreme of all evil. 28 For they either go mad with enjoyment, or prophesy lies, or live lawlessly or lightly perjure themselves. 29 For as their trust is in lifeless idols, they expect no harm when they have sworn falsely. 30 But on both counts justice shall overtake them: because they thought perversely of God by devoting themselves to idols, and because they deliberately swore false oaths, despising piety. 31 For it is not the might of those by whom they swear, but the just retribution of sinners, that ever follows upon the transgression of the wicked.
May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you. My Love to all of you in Christ Jesus. Amen.
1 John 4:7-21(Quote)
Maybe I’ll take another approach and deal with the incorrect interpretations you are constructing and then we can open the flood gates.
You stated in your presentation “According to Egyptian mythological history, Horus’s birthday is celebrated in the season of Khoiak, which runs in the months of October and November, not December 25th” This does not correspond with any source I have encountered. In fact even Wiki states “Koiak /ˈkʰɔjæk/ (Coptic: Ⲕⲟⲓⲁⲕ Koiak /ˈkɔjak/ or Ⲕⲓⲁϩⲕ Kiahk /ˈkijaxk/), is the fourth month of the Coptic calendar. It lies between December 10 and January 8 of the Gregorian calendar. The month of Koiak is also the fourth month of the Season of ‘Akhet’ (Inundation) in Ancient Egypt.” This date could very well be Dec. 25th. Here it is shown that the very introduction of your presentation is misleading. Link below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koiak
Also in a second Wiki link it states of the Coptic Egyptian calender “Until the 16th century, 25 December coincided with 29 Koiak of the Coptic calendar. However, upon the introduction of the Gregorian calendar in 1582, 25 December shifted 10 days earlier in comparison with the Julian and Coptic calendars.”
Uh oh! More to come.Link below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_calendar
Mac(the real one)(Quote)
Beginning and End you stated
“,,was that Horus was born from his mother Isis, who was not a virgin, but rather a widow of the slain Osiris. Through sorcery, Isis, assembled the body of Osiris and was impregnated with his phallus. Clearly this was a sexual union and not a virgin birth”.
Again I have proven in my earlier presentation that “virgin” as it related to Isis was not meaning “no sexual union” as that meaning didnt occur til aorund 14-15th century. I also provided a source that clearly shows it mean “maiden,marriagleable girl” in its noun form and means “clean” in its adjective form prior to medeival meaning of “no sexual intercourse.: also you failed to mention Isis represents a a realm of different cosmic realities and not that of a human,although her attributes may have been fitted toward the feminine human principle as well. This was mythology,not a literal person. Very clever and deceptive,but not unwitnessed. Futhermore to prove Isis was referred to as a virgin even by her own admission from the primary source is the inscriptions of “hwn.t wr.t” which means which blantanly refers to sis as “great maiden(virgin)”. Listed is a book and the primary picture source
1. )http://books.google.com/books?id=ZS4DAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=hwn.t+wr.t&source=bl&ots=Eu3T2t5Y-X&sig=rwMZnVEHNEEbjrBvkhYipc90QF8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lzD_UInDHcX2qwHQ74G4Cg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=hwn.t%20wr.t&f=false
2.) Pic of the primary source>>>http://truthbeknown.com/images/isisgreatvirgin.jpg
CLEARLY SHOWING SHE WAS A “VIRGIN” Lets continue
3.) Dictionary meaning of virgin clearly validating my point further.>>http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin
Furthermore the origin of virgin is Virgo….which is what?…..A cosmic principle,which is what Isis essentially represented in African history. Sorry to zone in on this issue so tought,just pointing out to the spectators the obvious.
You stated “Additionally, some of have said the 12 signs of the zodiac are the “disciples” of Horus. Even if this were the case, they are just stars and not actual people who followed Horus, preached about him or recorded his life. This is another empty and false claim.” If it is understood that Horus or Heru in literature was a personification of the Sun or solar deity,then it should not be hard to understand the zodiac signs as followers of the Sun or Horus during its yearly travel as well as the 12 hours of day and of night as the Sun travel daily. Even in looking at the Egyptian calender one can see four of the Shemsu of whom MAY possibly be claimed to follow Horus>>> Oh and would this be the four shemsu as stated by Glen Miller?lol
Link of the below months and more detailed diagram here>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_calendar
Also supported by even more scholarship is the following >>Egyptologist Erik Hornung wrote that “There was an obvious analogy between the Horus child and the baby Jesus and the care they received from their sacred mothers; long before Christianity, Isis had borne the epithet ‘mother of the god.’”. Erik Hornung also showed evidence of the claim that Horus had 12 followers in his daily movement from a celestial standpoint. It is depicted in a scene called Amuduat on tomb of Thutmose III also noted in his book “Ancient Books of the Afterlife”>>reference>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amduat
First of Akhet
Second of Akhet
hird of Akhet
Fourth of Akhet
First of Peret
Second of Peret
Third of Peret
Fourth of Peret
First of Shemu #1
Second of Shemu #2
Third of Shemu #3
Fourth of Shemu #4
Or are the four Shemsu you referring to the cardinal direction,or the forces of nature,(wind,water,earth,fire) or the four states of matter (liquid,solid,gas,plasma)? Just asking. Please dont rebuttal with a “Your sources are not valid or credible” or “Your dates are post Egyptian” or any other nonsense defense that would keep you from validating your false claims. The proof presented in this presentation now places the task of validating your claims while simultaneously unvaldating mines in a logical fashion. In this short presentation I have made it as simply as possible to track the information which proves your claims listed as false. Please be advised I dont post this info in an attempt to side with “zeitgeist” but in the effort of validating my claim that ” “I dont claim that there full lives in every single,accurate aspect was similiar but I do believe and am convinced through numerous amounts of study that one is no more than imported/exported or adopted ideologies of another!(Ie Jesus consist of plagarized ideas of older deities such as Horus/Heru,Krishna,Buddha,Osiris/Asar,Mitras,etc)!”
Much more to come,if i dont get bored..as this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Mac(the real one)(Quote)
“addressed to Beginning and End”
Maybe I’ll take another approach and deal with the incorrect interpretations you are constructing and then we can open the flood gates.
You stated in your presentation “According to Egyptian mythological history, Horus’s birthday is celebrated in the season of Khoiak, which runs in the months of October and November, not December 25th” This does not correspond with any source I have encountered. In fact even Wiki states “Koiak /ˈkʰɔjæk/ (Coptic: Ⲕⲟⲓⲁⲕ Koiak /ˈkɔjak/ or Ⲕⲓⲁϩⲕ Kiahk /ˈkijaxk/), is the fourth month of the Coptic calendar. It lies between December 10 and January 8 of the Gregorian calendar. The month of Koiak is also the fourth month of the Season of ‘Akhet’ (Inundation) in Ancient Egypt.” This date could very well be Dec. 25th. Here it is shown that the very introduction of your presentation is misleading. Link below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koiak
Also in a second Wiki link it states of the Coptic Egyptian calender “Until the 16th century, 25 December coincided with 29 Koiak of the Coptic calendar. However, upon the introduction of the Gregorian calendar in 1582, 25 December shifted 10 days earlier in comparison with the Julian and Coptic calendars.”
Uh oh! More to come.Link below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_calendar
Beginning and End you stated
“,,was that Horus was born from his mother Isis, who was not a virgin, but rather a widow of the slain Osiris. Through sorcery, Isis, assembled the body of Osiris and was impregnated with his phallus. Clearly this was a sexual union and not a virgin birth”.
Again I have proven in my earlier presentation that “virgin” as it related to Isis was not meaning “no sexual union” as that meaning didnt occur til aorund 12-15th century. I also provided a source that clearly shows it mean “maiden,marriagleable girl” in its noun form and means “clean” in its adjective form prior to medeival meaning of “no sexual intercourse.: also you failed to mention Isis represents a a realm of different cosmic realities and not that of a human,although her attributes may have been fitted toward the feminine human principle as well. This was mythology,not a literal person. Very clever and deceptive,but not unwitnessed. Futhermore to prove Isis was referred to as a virgin even by her own admission from the primary source is the inscriptions of “hwn.t wr.t” which means which blantanly refers to sis as “great maiden(virgin)”. Listed is a book and the primary picture source
1. )http://books.google.com/books?id=ZS4DAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=hwn.t+wr.t&source=bl&ots=Eu3T2t5Y-X&sig=rwMZnVEHNEEbjrBvkhYipc90QF8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lzD_UInDHcX2qwHQ74G4Cg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=hwn.t%20wr.t&f=false
2.) Pic of the primary source>>>http://truthbeknown.com/images/isisgreatvirgin.jpg
CLEARLY SHOWING SHE WAS A “VIRGIN” Lets continue
3.) Dictionary meaning of virgin clearly validating my point further.>>http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/virgin
Furthermore the origin of virgin is Virgo….which is what?…..A cosmic principle,which is what Isis essentially represented in African history. Sorry to zone in on this issue so tought,just pointing out to the spectators the obvious.
You stated “Additionally, some of have said the 12 signs of the zodiac are the “disciples” of Horus. Even if this were the case, they are just stars and not actual people who followed Horus, preached about him or recorded his life. This is another empty and false claim.” If it is understood that Horus or Heru in literature was a personification of the Sun or solar deity,then it should not be hard to understand the zodiac signs as followers of the Sun or Horus during its yearly travel as well as the 12 hours of day and of night as the Sun travel daily. Even in looking at the Egyptian calender one can see four of the Shemsu of whom MAY possibly be claimed to follow Horus>>> Oh and would this be the four shemsu as stated by Glen Miller?lol
Link of the below months and more detailed diagram here>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_calendar
Also supported by even more scholarship is the following >>Egyptologist Erik Hornung wrote that “There was an obvious analogy between the Horus child and the baby Jesus and the care they received from their sacred mothers; long before Christianity, Isis had borne the epithet ‘mother of the god.’”. Erik Hornung also showed evidence of the claim that Horus had 12 followers in his daily movement from a celestial standpoint. It is depicted in a scene called Amuduat on tomb of Thutmose III also noted in his book “Ancient Books of the Afterlife”>>reference>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amduat
First of Akhet
Second of Akhet
hird of Akhet
Fourth of Akhet
First of Peret
Second of Peret
Third of Peret
Fourth of Peret
First of Shemu #1
Second of Shemu #2
Third of Shemu #3
Fourth of Shemu #4
Or are the four Shemsu you referring to the cardinal direction,or the forces of nature,(wind,water,earth,fire) or the four states of matter (liquid,solid,gas,plasma)? Just asking. Please dont rebuttal with a “Your sources are not valid or credible” or “Your dates are post Egyptian” or any other nonsense defense that would keep you from validating your false claims. The proof presented in this presentation now places the task of validating your claims while simultaneously unvaldating mines in a logical fashion. In this short presentation I have made it as simply as possible to track the information which proves your claims listed as false. Please be advised I dont post this info in an attempt to side with “zeitgeist” but in the effort of validating my claim that ” “I dont claim that there full lives in every single,accurate aspect was similiar but I do believe and am convinced through numerous amounts of study that one is no more than imported/exported or adopted ideologies of another!(Ie Jesus consist of plagarized ideas of older deities such as Horus/Heru,Krishna,Buddha,Osiris/Asar,Mitras,etc)!”
Much more to come,if i dont get bored..as this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Mac(the real one)(Quote)
Hi Mac,
Thanks for your response. I will just make a few comments in response.
1. Date of Horus’ birth – With all due respect, Wikipedia, is a user-supplied resource, so it’s information will vary from time to time from those of academics. I will cite one.
The Egyptologist Louis B. Mikhail argued that the ritual associated with the god Osiris, performed during the Egyptian month Khoiak (mid-September to mid-October)” source
Khoaik in November (source)
Furthermore, as stated in the article, even if Horus was born on December 25th, it’s meaningless and irrelevant, because that date does not appear in the Bible and is not the birthday of Jesus Christ. This argument fails on several levels.
2. “Virgin” vs. “Maiden” - While a dictionary can provide a definition of a word that is in a text, it is not the primary source. The primary source is the context of the text in question.
The Bible is 100% clear that Mary was a virgin, as in never having been with a man. So the argument of whether the word is defined as “maiden” or “young girl” is again, entirely irrelevant. Isis was not a virgin. She copulated with her husband’s phallus, received his DNA and gave birth to her son. Mary was a virgin, as in, never having had relations with a man. This is how you interpret a text.
I am just trying to give some perspective here. There is no real link between Horus and Jesus Christ whatsoever. Neither you, or the Zeitgeist film, have provided any evidence of BIblical authors copying the story of Horus, to write the Gospels. Zero. Additionally, in the Bible, Egypt and its pantheon of satanic deities, are constantly referred to as spiritual enemies of God and His people. Egypt is like the epitome of the sinful, satanic rebellious world and the occult. So think this would be the basis for Christ’s life story is just illogical on its face.
Beginning and End(Quote)
Mac, you are all over the place with your astrology
and Egyptian mythologies. Miriam was a virgin,
Whose hymen was not broken before she conceived.
She prophesized to give a birth to a future king
Of Jews by prophet Isaiah. Indeed, original hebrew
state in Isaiha 7:14 Almah( maiden, young woman,
a woman of a child bearing age), however it was
Translated into Greek as parthenos in Septuagint,
which means precisely that A VIRGIN – a woman
who has never yet had an intercourse. Strong’s
Lexicon # 3933, Definition
a virgin
a marriageable maiden
a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
one’s marriageable daughter
a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity
one who has never had intercourse with women
So, it is evident that Almah aludes the chastity
of a childbearing young woman, which Septuagint
only confirms is the case. Also, it is imperative to understand
that Miriam would become bethroned once giving
a yes to Joseph to be his wife and had to keep
Her virginity to him alone. There is no surprise then
she stated in NT she never knew( has been sexual)
with any man.
Another thing I wanted out is that Yahushua
would not be born in December because shepherds
lived and watched the flock at night. It would
quite cold in December in Judea as temperatures
can drop to 40 degrees, it can snow and rain
and no shepherd in his right mind would
watch his precious possession ( flock) at night.
Moreover, Mashiah more than likely was born
during the feats of Tabernacles aka Sukkot.
John 1:14 states;
And the Word became flesh, and did TABERNACLE among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
There is a great explanation by rabbi in this video
Although, I do not agree with some of his teachings,
he provides an awesome biblical explanation for Messiah’s B-Day
during the Feast of Tabernalcles.
TruthSeeker(Quote)
Beginning and End stated “1. Date of Horus’ birth – With all due respect, Wikipedia, is a user-supplied resource, so it’s information will vary from time to time from those of academics. I will cite one.
“The Egyptologist Louis B. Mikhail argued that the ritual associated with the god Osiris, performed during the Egyptian month Khoiak (mid-September to mid-October)” source
Khoaik in November (source)
My reply:”Here is another source outside of WIKI. I provided Wiki links cause it is has pretty valuable sources located within. However here is another to validate my claim thus proving you incorrect.
http://www.tutorgigpedia.com/Koiak_es.html
http://www.zeitun-eg.org/warraq.htm
http://www.christian-egypt.com/CopticCalendar.htm
So again you should retract your above statement about the month of “Koiak/Choiak” because your statement is obviously incorrect,thus proving my point. Also your source appears to be very vague. I cant find that he cited “Koiak” as the same time(Oct-Nov) as your source states. Nor was your source a Wikilink. If you can provide me with evidence that he stated this was the time of “Koiak”,please do so. So that we can know this isnt a false claim on your part. But whomever made this remark was incorrect and you cited incorrect information. But lets continue
Also on July 15,2012 at 8:15pm you cited a wiki link. your statement>>”The oldest manuscripts are from over 600 years after Buddha’s death, are in fragments and have been in those dreaded “European hands” you say alter everything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandh%C4%81ran_Buddhist_Texts”
Guess the same rules(usage of Wiki links) dont apply when making your points perhaps?
You stated “Furthermore, as stated in the article, even if Horus was born on December 25th, it’s meaningless and irrelevant, because that date does not appear in the Bible and is not the birthday of Jesus Christ. This argument fails on several levels.”
My reply: But you said “Koiak was in the mont of (Oct-NOV). Is someone back pedaling? This statement also would appear to further validate my point or claim “The argument is that the attributes of Jesus are no more than the atributes of deities that predate him,(not there exact lifestyles) and the resemblence of all religions are based off the same principle. That principle is the cosmological universe(ie the Sun,planets,forces of nature,etc)”
You stated:”While a dictionary can provide a definition of a word that is in a text, it is not the primary source. The primary source is the context of the text in question.”
Are you stating word origin or the etymology of the word is not important?
You cited a biblical passage: 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
In the passage you provided no where did it state she was a virgin,hence proving the point that this title “virgin” was obviously planted into western religious ideology EVIDENTLY during the 12-13th century which is when the origin of the word “Virgin” took on the meaning of “no sexual union”. This is widely documented in etymological sources. This would also mean that if your meaning of the text is true,then it would obviously have been changed(the text that is),since its original beginnings, to fit the preference of religious order in western civilization,which at the time would have been the only culture without a god or God who didnt have a virgin mother. You are using word play to your advantage witthout respect to history or word origin. If this text(NT) was written 2000 years more or less,then what was the meaning applied to “virgin” at the time of its construction? And then when did this change?How and Why?
Oh and by the way here is an etymological link AGAIN>>http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=virgin
origin of Virgo>>
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/sun-signs/virgo-origin-representation.phphttp://allaboutvirgo.blogspot.com/2006/09/virgo-little-history-virgo-is-sixth.html
A concept that existed WELL before Mary’s propsoed existence and or conception
On July 15 2012 8:15 you cited totally diifferent scriptures that blatantly used the word “virgin/viginity in it which proved my point of the etymological origin of the word when it was used in the primary biblical form,OT which came before the NT.
Here are your quotes:
3) “Virgin” — Here are the rules for priests straight from Leviticus 21: “And he shall take a wife in her virginity. 14 A widow, or a divorced woman, or profane, or an harlot, these shall he not take: but he shall take a virgin of his own people to wife.”
Clearly the implication here is sexual, not referring to age.
My reply was:”POINT-Clearly the implication here is sexual, not referring to age.” This does not disprove my sources which stated “virgin” as marriageagle woman,young woman! This text almost clearly shows the virgin to be unwedded or not of any husband,therefore marriageable as (“a widowed” or “divorce woman” could not be taken) because they have already been married! What reason would one have to not believe this? Again re-read the source as it provides passages from the very bible you are using validate reality,only its much more detailed>>>>>>http://www.the-goldenrule.name/Virgin_HEBREW.htm (its extremely clear)
So I killed this issue with you months ago. You may want to go back and reread your statement in full. And it puzzles me how you first used the OT as your source in regards to “virgin” which is where it was stated in INK and can be said to match earlier etymological meaning,although its ultimate origin shows to be “Virgo”,a celestial meaning. But then you came back with a NT scripture which didnt use the word.
You stated “Isis was not a virgin.” Not only did I provide Egyptian text and a credible source in my earlier presentation of Isis referring to hereself as “The great virgin” but the argument presented prior to this statement should prove your statement/s incorrect.
You stated: “Additionally, in the Bible, Egypt and its pantheon of satanic deities, are constantly referred to as spiritual enemies of God and His people. Egypt is like the epitome of the sinful, satanic rebellious world and the occult.”
Oh we will deal with this claim if I can find the time to break this in half. Will definitely try and find the time to do so. And are you still using biblical text to validate history. The bible if I an not mistaken is not a history book.
You stated “So think this would be the basis for Christ’s life story is just illogical on its face.”
You are starting to sound like a computer. But lets first get you to admit your claims(as proven in this presentation )are false interpretations at least and then we can contiue to the next batch.
Mac(the real one)(Quote)
Mac- Once again you are focusing on minor points and missing the major one. You have sources that say Khoaik is in December. I have sources that vary from Sept-November. Ultimately it is irrelevant because the date December 25th is not in the Bible. So even if Khoaik fell on December 25th, it has no relevance to the Bible whatsoever because that is not the date of Christ’s birth.
Regarding Wikipedia – I am not trying to discredit Wikipedia. This cite uses it regularly for the simple fact that is commonly known and clearly not a “Christian website.” My point was that Wikiepdia is not compiled by academics and experts. As a result in many instances of antiquity, you will find variance between a Wikipedia entry and an academic article or book. This does not mean Wikipedia is automatically wrong and the academic is right. It just means a difference in information should not be shocking.
Virgin Birth – We have manuscripts of the Gospel of Luke that date to within a century of the death of Christ. And in that Gospel Mary clearly says she has not “known” a man, which, in context means, she has not had sexual relations in her life. So all of your points about 12-14th century interpolations of the meaning of the word “virgin” are again, irrelevant. The Biblical record speaks for itself. Mary was a virgin, in the sexual sense. She said and the Angel responded clearly explaining how she, as a virgin would be able to supernaturally conceive and give birth to the Messiah. So there is ambiguity here whatsoever as to her status: she had never had relations, including with her husband, before the birth of Christ Jesus.
You are shocked that I am using the NT, but the NT is where we find the Virgin Mary. So why would that be so shocking? Again, if we want to get down to the meaning, why not look to the chapter that actually discusses the virgin in question? It seems to make sense. And again, the record is quite clear. By her own testimony, she was a sexual virgin. And it predates all your other conspiracy theories and hunches about Western Christians altering the Biblical text.
And finally, you still have provided no evidence of Biblical authors plagiarizing Egyptian sources. Again, I understand your points, but at this point you are missing the bigger picture.
Beginning and End(Quote)
Oh and to further deaden this “virgin issue” how about commentary from Dr. Raymond E. Brown
Corresponding Link below
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christian_Credibility.htm
III. The Virginal Conception
Brown cautions that “we should not underestimate the adverse pedagogical impact on the understanding of divine sonship if the virginal conception is denied.”[13] On the other hand, admits Brown, “The virginal conception under its creedal title of ‘virgin birth’ is not primarily a biological statement.”[14] He stresses that Christian writings about virginal conception intend to reveal spiritual insights rather that physical facts. Because record of the virginal conception appears only in tow Gospels, and there only in the infancy narratives (which Brown suspects are largely fictional), the Catholic theologian tactfully concludes that “biblical evidence leaves the question of the historicity of the virginal conception unresolved.”[15]
Brown mentions the possibility that “early Christians” might have imported a mythology about virginal conception from “pagan or [other] world religions,”[16] but never intended that that mythology be taken literally. “Virginal conception was a well-known religious symbol for divine origins,” explains Brown, citing such stories in Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Greco-Roman and ancient Egyptian theologies.[17] He proposes that early Christians “used an imagery of virginal conception whose symbolic origins were forgotten as it was disseminated among various Christian communities and recorded by evangelists.”[18]
Alternatively, Brown also considers the possibility that Christianity’s founders intended to create the impression that an actual virginal conception took place. Early Christians needed just such a myth, Brown notes, since Mary was widely known to have delivered Jesus too early: “Unfortunately, the historical alternative to the virginal conception has not been a conception in wedlock; it has been illegitimacy.”[19] Brown writes that:
Some sophisticated Christians could live with the alternative of illegitimacy; they would see this as the ultimate stage in Jesus’ emptying himself and taking on the form of a servant, and would insist, quite rightly, that an irregular begetting involves no sin by Jesus himself. But illegitimacy would destroy the images of sanctity and purity with which Matthew and Luke surround Jesus’ origins and would negate the theology that Jesus came from the pious Anawim of Israel. For many less sophisticated believers, illegitimacy would be an offense that would challenge the plausibility of the Christian mystery.[20]
In summary, Brown leans towards a less miraculous explanation of Jesus’ early birth.
Mac(the real one)(Quote)
Truth seeker you stated “Mac, you are all over the place with your astrology
and Egyptian mythologies”
My reply: I clearly showed that his,Beginning and End interpretaion of mythology as you all call it,was incorrect and thus proved he gave false imformation. It should be rightly assumed I have more knowledge of this topic than he and probably anyone else in the forum. So please take notes if at all possible. He has yet to prove his points of the claims he made regarding Horus or correclty Heru and Isis. Therefore it would rightly appear that he,Beginning and End,is” all over the place”. I gave hard evidence from primary and scholarly sources to prove my point thus,proving his source and information incorrect in regards to Egyptian literature on Isis being a “virgin” and Horus/Heru’s birthdate and followers of Heru. He has yet to show primary sources and valid works produced by those of scholarship. Until then,this is a dead issue.
Futhermore….you stated “Indeed, original hebrew
state in Isaiha 7:14 Almah( maiden, young woman,
a woman of a child bearing age), however it was
Translated into Greek as parthenos in Septuagint,
which means precisely that A VIRGIN – a woman
who has never yet had an intercourse. Strong’s
Lexicon # 3933, Definition
a virgin
a marriageable maiden
a woman who has never had sexual intercourse with a man
one’s marriageable daughter
a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity
one who has never had intercourse with women
So, it is evident that Almah aludes the chastity
of a childbearing young woman, which Septuagint
only confirms is the case.”
According to the only source you all seem to have,the bible,in the OT was not the word,for virgin, “almaha” and if so was it not at that time meaning of “maiden”,”marriageable woman” and as opposed to sexual intercourse? Do we not find the prophecy of a “virgin/maiden” conceiving a child in the OT,which is widely known to have been written in the “jewish” language and in a pre-Greco Era? How can one refute this. Even in the above quote,you basically proved my point along with your source. Besides agnos(chaste) parthnenos(virgin/maiden) would have been a better Greco word for describing a maiden with no sexual union as mention in 2 Corinthians 11:2 …lol and the Hebrews would have more or less likely used the term “Bethulah”,POSSIBLY but not definite to denote what you all are implying.
it would have been “possibly” been “agnos/αγνός/” which means “chaste”,that is if using it in adjective form. Chaste is of course “no sexual union”,celibacy.spotless.again agnos in Greek. LINK>>
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=chaste+IN+GREEK&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4AURU_enUS500US501&q=chaste+IN+GREEK&gs_l=hp….0.0.3.562553………..0.drMqlWVh-HE
However if “no sexual union” was implied in the OT in the “Jewish” language it would have appeared “bethulah” in the “jewish” framework,meaning no sexual union. However we dont find that in Isaiah’s prophecy in the hebrew language. We also find,as you obvously state the Greek translation “parthenos” which was converted by JEWISH scribes into a language the Greeks could indentify. This would mean that in converting the word “parthenos” from “maiden” that it would have obviously held the same meaning. This is not rocket science. PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING SOURCE IN ITS ENTIRELY as it validate my point with clear and precise detail>>>>>
http://www.the-goldenrule.name/Virgin_HEBREW.htm
TRUTH SEEKER stated: “Another thing I wanted out is that Yahushua
would not be born in December because shepherds
lived and watched the flock at night. It would
quite cold in December in Judea as temperatures
can drop to 40 degrees, it can snow and rain
and no shepherd in his right mind would
watch his precious possession ( flock) at night.”
This above statement further validates my claim that as stated multiple times in presentations “I dont claim that there full lives in every single,accurate aspect was similiar but I do believe and am convinced through numerous amounts of study that one is no more than imported/exported or adopted ideologies of another (Ie Jesus consist of plagarized ideas of older deities such as Horus/Heru,Krishna,Buddha,Osiris/Asar,Mitras,etc)!” Obviously the very birthdate of Iesous/Ye-zues is interpolated with the Sun,obviously proving my above claim. This….is….not…rocket science/ Until anyone can disprove my claims with valid reliable sources that appeal to obvious human logic and or prove their claims with and in the same detailed fashion,I will not move to the next topic. Beginning and End has yet validate his claims on Horus and Isis unless he admits he gave false imformation and you both have not given any reliable sources for your claim outside of using the bible as a history book and etymological source. Epic failure might I add with all due respect. I will not make preentations to multiple people as well,as my post are thorough and covers definite ground. Plus Im aware Im on a site probably widely supported by individuals who will soon come out the wood works,therefore provoking me to render continuouis presentations. If at all possible I would like claims validated by Beginning and End and anyone who wants to add input can easily contact him and collab with all due respect. Keep in mind the burden of evidence,UNTIL further poregress is made in regards to the claims made by Beginning and End,falls on B and E to prove with a thorough presentation that his claims regarding Egyptian “mystery” is correct. It is imperative that we have these false claims obliferated thereby making it easier to present other existing claims supported by a wide body of evidenc. Again I say I cant go further until B and E admits that my evidence is sufficient and that his claims,clearly mentioned in his initial presentain are false or not sufficient enough. Also please read the text I posted by well known Catholic theologian Dr. Raymond Brown as he further validate my point in regards to the virgin birth being from a highly probably importation from “pre-christian” sources. If you have yet to read his commentary I can repost. Thanks!
http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christian_Credibility.htm
Mac(the real one)(Quote)
Mac(the real one) said;
”Obviously the very birthdate of Iesous/Ye-zues is interpolated with the Sun,obviously proving my above claim. This….is….not…rocket science/ ” Ha? First of all, Mashiah’s name is NOT Ye-zues. His name is YAHSHUAH. Second of all, NOBODY knows YAHSHUAH’s precise Birth Date, not does it matter. Yahuwah did not put emphasis on His son’s name, nor EVER commanded to commemorate it. Thirdly, what has Sukkot to do with the Sun?! This is precisely what I mean when I said you are all over the place. You read ZERO scriptures and know absolutly NOTHING about TaNaKh or NT. How do I know? I tricked you with hebrew word ALMAH use in Isaiah 7:14 to see how you would respond and lo and behold after much research you have brought up BETHULAH into the picture. I just wanted to let you know that ALMAH aslo mean VIRGIN, a woman who had never had a sexual intercourse with a man. One of the characteristics of young unmarried woman ALMA is her VIRGINITY. There is not A SINGLE instance in TaNaKh where ALMA is used to refer to a non-virgin. An ancient ugaritic tablet was discovered which uses ALMA in synonymous parallelism to BETULAH. Dr. Cyrus Gordon, one of the world’s leading semitists, who is jewsih and does not believe in Yahshuah’s virgin birth for the reason of synonymous parallelis between ALMAH and BETULAH maintains ALMA in Isaiah 7:14 may be translated as A VIRGIN( Alma in Isaiah 7:14, Gordon, Cyrus H.; 21:106). Now, BETULAT or BETHULAH apart from VIRGIN can also mean “a young married woman who is not a virgin, but pure because she is married See Joel 1:8. Morover, B’TULTA IS used Isaiah 7:14 in Aramaic Peshita TaNaK. Why the writer of Isaiah 7:14 used ALMA instead of BETULAH is a conversation make possible for those who read TaNaKh and know the events that lead to Isaiah 7. Moreover, as I have already previously stated, hebrew translators used greek PARTHENOS for ALMA properly while producing Septuagint for the greek speaking jews. PARTHENOS mean a woman who had never had a sexual intercourse with a man. Notice, Septuagint was written at least few hundrad years before Mashiah’s Birdthay, which further indicate the 70-ies were well aware the young woman who’d give birth to promissed Messiah will be A VIRGIN. With that said, Miriam’s virginity has absoluterly nothing to do with Salvation process. ZERO relevancy.
Also, I wanted to ask you, why do you insist Isis was a virgin? Ancient Egyptian mythology was not stressing she had an intact hymen, she was a virgin. Secondly, it is absolutely positively a well known fact, Isis used her brother-husband recreated penis to concive Horus. Please tell me how is it possible to ride a pony and remian a virgin?
It is imperative to understand, my friend, that absolutely NOWHERE, neither in TaNaKh, nor in the NT did people worshipped any other DEITY, but Yahuwah, apart of course of Idolatry instances and absolutely NOWHERE, neither in TaNaKh, nor in NT did people worshipped Sun or the Moon or stars or whatever other heavenly element(planet) as Egyptians, Sumerians, Babylonian, Romans, Greek ABSOLUTELY did. Ancient hebrews used the sun and the moon for signs, mo’ed, days and years.
Are there certain characteristics of ancient cultures similar to biblical? Absofreakinglutly. Satan is counterfieting EVERYTHING that Yahuwah created, said and appointed. There should no surprise for any believer that christian traditions and customs that are rooted in paganism and are the counterfeit to Yahuwah appointed feasts; X-mas aka Saturnalia is a counterfeit of Feast of Tabernacles, Easter aka fertility goddess Ashtarte is a counterfeit of FirstFruits, which Yahshua has fulfilled, Sun Day worship is a counterfeit of Shabbat worship.
Mithras, Horus, Dyonisus, Attis and so on are the counterfeit of Yahshua, pagan goddesses are the counterfeit of Miriam. Jesus, Iesous, Lord, God are the counterfeits of Yahuwah, Yahshuah, Adonai, Elohim( but even similar titles to Elohim and Adonai have been used by other cultures). Trinity aka Truine pagan gods worship is a counterfeit to monoteism and oneness of Abba and Mashiah, Immortality of the soul doctrine aka immortal souls of pagan deties is a counterfeit of death, hell, purgatory, heaven in the sky, rapture – all the false doctrines of christianity that satan influnced to create using ancient pagan religions. Hellenistic culture and its philospohy heavy influences on hebrew culture and christianity development are apparent. An avid reader and student of scritures will find the discrepancies and understand adversary deception. Those who continue in these lies have nothing to defend themsleves against people like you, who read too many gnostics, catholic and mystery religions articles and of course “biblical” scholars is aware of these similarities, however has no in-depth knowledge of Yahuwah’s Word. You never read the bible, Mac, and I am sorry I have to say this, You have no right to come here and impose your research, trying to convince people their faith worth nothing because of satan’s counterfeiting. Ya think mounts of your articles will shake the faith of those who know Yahuwah and experienced the goodness and wisdom of His inspired Word? NOT A CHANCE! And who the heck cares about some catholic pastors opinion? Mac, come on now!Sorry, man, for being so critical, but unless you read the bible in its entirety and understand something about it, it is fruitless to debate believers.
Beginning and end, my to you advice, do not waste your time and energy on people like Mac. He is convinced in his heart and mind that what he has researched is truth. It is absolutely positively pointless to debate an atheist. And for those who question their Faith, I will say; YOU have never had IT to begin with. Study The Word, make yoursefl aproved before The Almighty Yah, so you can stand blameless before Him at the judgment day. Live a Set Apart( Holy) life. Abandon man made teachings completely. I cannot stress how important it is to READ THE WORD!!! Read 3-4 chapters every single day. Remember what Mashuah said ‘the road is narrow and FEW WILL FIND IT.”
TheTruthSeeker(Quote)
Truth seeker stated “You read ZERO scriptures and know absolutly NOTHING about TaNaKh or NT. How do I know? I tricked you with hebrew word ALMAH use in Isaiah 7:14 to see how you would respond and lo and behold after much research you have brought up BETHULAH into the picture. I just wanted to let you know that ALMAH aslo mean VIRGIN, a woman who had never had a sexual intercourse with a man.”
My reply: No you realized you validated my point and you are now back pedaling.
Your very phrase “I tricked you ” is the very reason Im addressing this site and further shows your willingness to be deceitful with all due respect.
Truth seeker stated or should I say copy and pasted “An ancient ugaritic tablet was discovered which uses ALMA in synonymous parallelism to BETULAH. Dr. Cyrus Gordon, one of the world’s leading semitists, who is jewsih and does not believe in Yahshuah’s virgin birth for the reason of synonymous parallelis between ALMAH and BETULAH maintains ALMA in Isaiah 7:14 may be translated as A VIRGIN( Alma in Isaiah 7:14, Gordon, Cyrus H.; 21:106″
My reply: You copied this from the following link without giving the reference>>http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/0102/010218_d.html
This a nono in the art of debating. Also supply your sources otherwise one has no choice but to point out plagarism,when noted, thus noting an incompetent opponent.
Secondly you didnt read nor address my reference source which detailed the meaning of Almaha/almah
Here is a simpler link since you refuse to read the other>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah which states>>>
The masculine equivalent of almah is elem (“עלם”) meaning “youth” or “young man of the age of puberty”.[3] Feminizing these terms would result in “young woman” or “young woman of the age of puberty”. Gesenius defines the word as a “girl of marriageable age”. In modern Hebrew almah means a young woman or girl, a young or unmarried woman.[4]
This is the manner in which you should have quoted your content above with all due respect.
Truthseeker stated “You have no right to come here and impose your research, trying to convince people their faith worth nothing because of satan’s counterfeiting. Ya think mounts of your articles will shake the faith of those who know Yahuwah and experienced the goodness and wisdom of His inspired Word?”
You broke another rule in the art of presenting information to opposing individuals. Never show emotion…This is where commentary starts to show it stems from irrational thinking and not a logical mindset.
But you are actually correct here. I dont want to be the reason for such a thing,as people losing faith in a positive word. I dont argue against the word stated to be preached by Yeshua/Yezeus or which ever term you like to use. Therefore I concede from the back and forth. However if anyone is interested,you know how to reach me. But on the topic at hand,the information presented is just the TIP of the iceberg,I assure you.
Mac(the real one)(Quote)
Mac, you are correct. I should have provided a link
to the webpage. For that I do apologize that. It was
dishonest move on my part. However, let me tell you
This; the evidence I have provided would be efficient enough
to understand Isaiah spoke of a young woman who
never knew a man sexually. Septuagint supports that
as well with the Greek for A VIRGIN parthenos. And the
fact, that it was written 200 or so years before the birth
of Yahshua is a good indication Hebrew translators KNEW
it would a virgin.
As for your zeal for comparative ancient mythology and
astrology – I applaud you, however, it is rather intellectually
dishonest for you to attack Christianity, you know
Very little about. Using masses of websites, articles and not knowing
The Word would be sort if like for a Christian attacking Islam without
investigating what is written in Koran. Reading The Word would
change your perspective on your whole research, trust me. I will take time
and look at your research material. I have already done plenty,
Perhaps not as extensively as you did, but I get easily bored with them,
Because of the very little attention they pay to the actual
TaNaKh and NT.
And I do want to apologize for sounding hursh and disrespectful.
That wasn’t nice of me.
TruthSeeker(Quote)
@truthseeker and everyone
And with that said,i respectfully concede. Thanks for the intellectual stimulation and plethra of extra info. I apologize if I offended anyone or caused question in the positive word of God. This was not the intention. Goodbye everyone. शान्तिः(peace)
Mac(the real one)(Quote)
Sorry i was busy with my business , until i stumbled on this piece of information about -”The Bible”
1.With my argument said above , i want to add @beginningandend that considering biblical words to be factual is yet another sin that was not added in the 10 commandments.
2.Do not spread false beliefs , remember what goes around comes around.
3.If you believe and if its factual you tell someone , if not try to keep it to oneself . This wastes the intellects time in recorrecting the diturbed minds of the mass .
4.You may discard this stating this is not something to do with Jesus being comapared to Mithra or Buddha or Krishna , but this will give insight of how Bible is wrong in all terms and why Bible should not be picked up as a proof or evidence.
5. All enlightened beings are different , incarantions of these pure souls happen to liberate and assist human liberation from suffering , arguments made on them are simply a small minded thought.
Rejo(Quote)
Hi Rejo,
While excerpts of articles are totally fine, please refrain from posting lengthy articles in the comments section. Please provide a link instead. Thanks very much.
Beginning and End(Quote)
I love you wackjobs that believe in this crap. Unless you have first hand knowledge of events, it is rumor or stories. No two eyes see an event the same way. There is a better chance of your god being a little green man than your so-called heavenly being.
dp(Quote)
Christ becomes termed as Pseudo Christ when religions are mixed to the term Syncretism but in the truth does differenciate between the Christ & Christ like to the word Pseudo Christ., for every truth there is the False or Duplicate.to determine the truth from the untruth ,in terms of Life & Death.
abey(Quote)
To know the difference between Christ & the Pseudo Christ is to know the difference between love & hate respectively where Christ’s love is in the chastising , the Pseudo Christ’s hate is in the appeasings, where the former corrects the latter spoils , so who is to life eternal ?
abey(Quote)
a guy coming on here to explain why jesus isn’t a copy cat. So then, where is the evidence of matthew, mark, luke or john actually writing the first four books of the New Testament? So far there is none. Its just attributed to them, wich as it turns out makes everything you say look foolish.
Richard(Quote)
Hi Richard,
Where is the evidence that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John did not write the first four books of the New Testament??
Beginning and End(Quote)
Answering a question with a question is not an answer. Since you are so sure of your religion the burden of proof lays with you. not me, basing your entire proof on the gospels is rubbish. you can’t even substantiate why it is whatever you believe, then how can you claim jesus was (fill in the blank)
You cant. next what you will try to tell me is your faith is all the proof you need, and while that might be true for you you cannot claim it as the “truth” .
Richard(Quote)
Richard,
With all due respect, you have me confused. You say I based my “entire proof on the gospels.” But I’m not. I am going to secular, non-Christian sources to demonstrate the descriptions of Horus, Mithras, Krisha and Dionysus and that they do not match with the Biblical accounts of the life of Jesus at all. You are not challenging any points from the article, so I don’t really follow.
If you are just making a general objection to the authorship of the Gospels then I thought you would have some evidence to support it. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all wrote their names on their books and there are thousands of manuscirpt copies from antiquity with their names on it, that still exist today. That’s usually the first good piece of evidence as to authorship. Additionally, you can look at writings of first or second century Christians like Polycarp or Iraenaeus who quote the Gospels and attribute authorship to those same 4 men.
Again, if I am missing the question you’re asking, I apologize, but it was not really clear to me.
Beginning and End(Quote)
How does it make you look foolish? Simple. If you can substantiate with accuracy how/when/why whatever it is you believe, (religion) then how in the world are you going tosay with any confidence that all the jesus mumbo jumbo is the absolute truth? And personal testimony, and faith are not answers. anyone from a (dif) religious perspective can calim this. and please no, well why would people die for jesus then? thats also simple. people are stupid and die for thier beliefs all the time
Richard(Quote)
How can one give any Guarentee about his next hour, other than by his Faith in the short & in the long run ? & on this there arises what is called Belief which comes about in two ways True or False. For eg. America formed by its Forefathers & with the so called Puritians, most of them had Deists beliefs which belief is to believe in god, a god who is not involved with his creations which is called ‘Platoism”(which is as good to the word Atheist) but then contradicts scriptures that state- for not a bird falls without the knowledge of God & to Jesus Himself revealing the Father & contrary to this is seen the beliefs of the American puritans to a society that has become , a fatherless and broken one swimming into every wickedness under the Sun, rudderless in the Moral stands, seen today & if seeing is not believing then it is Hypocrisy., & thus is a clear indication that its faith is wrong or false to its very beginning. On this is the Biblical prophecy & if so much can be seen which is the Evidence, then its future that is written can also be believed, including the ways of the Pseudo christs.
abey(Quote)
Honestly after reading most of the comments I think as much as one person would like to be RIGHT , the truth is that all religious scripts were written by man , and we all know that man is flawed and will only do things to benefit he’s own agenda, so unless anyone here has a script that has been written by the divine himself/herself I think we should respect the religions that we each follow , one should not try to debunk or put down other religions in order to make one feel right or vindicate their religion , by doing so u become worst than those who criticize and show hatred to other religions that don’t agree with their belief system , I’m hindu I believe in krishna but I don’t feel the need to hate on other religions just to make me feel justified for worshiping him. Hope I haven’t offended anyone
Saichen(Quote)
Hi Saichen,
Thanks for your comments. I wanted to respond to one comment you made:
The writers of the Bible claimed to write Scripture based on direct inspiration and revelation from God. In other words, it was a supernatural process. Are you saying that they are lying?
Beginning and End(Quote)
The writers you say , what are the names of the writers of the bible ? And for the simple fact that u used the word “claimed” shows that you yourself doubt it
Saichen(Quote)
There are 40 authors of the Bible. I won’t list them all but they can be found http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-authors.html
But you still did not answer my question. Were they lying or is the Bible truly divinely-inspired?
Beginning and End(Quote)
The wages of sin is death, for seeing is believing & death is no hope for man, but to the hope came the Christ prophesied of old called the Messiah, thus the proof of Christianity is in the Resurrection of Jesus, which is become the hope for man , for Jesus or Yeshua means salvation, & to this did he say ‘I am the way, truth & life to The Father, the only way because he is the only one who has ever been bodily Resurrected, for he who had no sin, that could not hold him & to this is the Bible which is not just a book of stories but the Book of witness unto Him, come through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to that Hope- the salvation which comes by the Faith in Him, to his life death & resurrection, for by His resurrection can we be resurrected. All of this is brought about by God HIMSELF in His Mercy. Now to understand as to what is this Faith that is required, is to look at the old testament to the patriarch Abraham that humble man raised by God as blessing unto all the generations for his Faith. It is that Faith which is required to come into the Christ. Now to know Jesus Christ, is the Lord from heaven born as Man off a Woman, A virgin, according to the law, to also know that God by Himself has no image, to the first commandments unto Mosses, unto the “Arc of the Covenant” & Christ who is the only begotten Son, is His express Image & Man being created in that Image, to the creation of Adam & out of Adam was made Eve & from them comes mankind which is to say Mankind comes directly under Him, He who is to come in the glory which is His everlasting state, to some thing like St. John, his beloved Apostle, standing before him fell as dead, mentioned in Revelations Ch.1, as the Judge of all mankind, to the very reason as to why he The Son of God came down born as the Son of Man for the sake of mankind. There is no way anyone can know God other than through Him & that is why He said “I am the way, truth & life” to the Father & as is written, before the foundations were laid God chose each one in His Christ. This is the Truth of Christ & Christianity to the redemption & salvation, for the fallen man, unto God in the eternal. Again to the words of Jesus “Before me were thiefs & Robbers–” meaning going up to God other than through Him, he who makes us spotless presenting us before the Father & as is said standing before God in our fullself, body & Soul as created originally, other than being spotless, would be most unwanted & horrible. Which is to say there are other ways other than through Christ, professed by people like Oprah Winfreys, but then the consequences will be as mentioned . God is Pure & Holy, which makes one standing before Him be likewise, not to be mocked at.
abey(Quote)
I don’t know about other pagan gods, but i knew well about krishna…
In India, nobody believes that krishna is crucified… To make parallels between jesus and krishna, Zeitgeists lied… everyone in india will laugh if you say that krishna is crucified… merciless liars…
Pravin(Quote)
Satan called the Devil, that great Dragon or Serpent, tempter, deceiver & restrainer , the king of Occultism to the Prophesied Sorcery, by which he deceives the whole world, he who is & has been a thief, liar & murderer from the beginnings who comes in various forms & ways even as an Angel of light. Where in the Truth God is not to be worshiped in any form or Image anywhere, the adversary says worship of idols is worship of me . This makes him to be a garbage can too. As stated in acts “They took the tabernacle of Moloch (Human sacrifices & Temple Prostitutions- sounds famaliar)which is all part of that Ancient Egyptian beliefs today in its various forms or avatars across the world, which is but to understand the great flood at the time of Noe, Destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah, the Judgement of the Pharaoh, even unto his gods, into the stated final Judgements to come to the Prophesy., like at the time of Noe, they rejoiced in falseness & sin when the flood came & took all of them away. To all this is every reason to beware of the false or Pseudo Christs, there is one, even one who moves about as the christ.
abey(Quote)
we’re free creatures, we should unite and create a magnificent world based on our reason, tecknology ,justice, cooperation and equality for everyone, it doesn’t matter if jesus existed or not, all jesus supposedly said were logical things, we don’t need anybody to tell us that we need to love ourselves it’s all logical, we should teach our children that we don’t know if we either have a soul or not, because we don’t know, it hasnt been proved, we shouldn’t either tell them that somebody will come to rescue us when we die because we don’t know, we should theach ‘em all kind of possibilities, we’re on our own, god won’t come to solve our problems, all religions claim they’re the ultimate truth, and olny them will be saved, and the others will be condemned, religions makes us hate ourselves, we should open our minds and focus in what’s really important here on earth, if we have a soul well, we’ll know it when we’ll die, if god is really our father and creator, then he/she/it wont let any of us suffer or die, imagine having a son, you don’t want that your son suffers, or be condemned even if he does bad things, you’ll defend your son no matter what, because it’s your blood, you saw him growing, you love him etc. it’s stupid and surrealistic to think that you will only be saved and the other persons of other religions or that have no creeds will be condemned even if they have a healthy and good exemplar way of living. would you do that to your son?
fern(Quote)
To know a little more to this Biblical Mark of the beast, it is required to understand the first Disobedience to taking of the forbidden tree to the knowledge of good & evil, except that today good is termed as evil & evil as good, thus making today’s idealisms like twigs , to say swimming through the sea of good & evil cannot really identify the good from the evil & back to Genesis where Cain eventually slew his brother & to protect Cain to his life, God in his mercy put the Mark of Cain to whosoever attacks Cain, vengeance will be taken seven fold & to this when Cain was accidently shot at with an arrow by blind Lemach, a generation of Cain, thinking it to be a wild animal(quiet similar to the death of Hindu, Krisn’a) was shocked at what he did & Exclaimed ” If Cain be avenged seven times then Lemach 77 times’ & it was against this that Jesus stated in the sermon on the Mount “Forgive not seven but 77.”. This is all but to know to them who live by the Curse spiritually to the line of Cain & them who live by the blessing, spiritually to the line of Abel/Seth/Abraham. Jesus was sent through the line of the Blessing in order to save to Turn them from the Mark of Cain within the appointed time, when it becomes the Mark of the Beast to eternal condemnation, even though are them in the mixtures today unto Mankind, can in a way be signified for eg. by the Hindu Brahmin priest sacrificial markings on the heads & hands( to the mark of Cain), in the O.T. signifying the priests of Baal, all but to the ancient beliefs of Egypt , in the texts called as ‘Babylon”. Truth indeed hurts, cannot be changed only hidden & whoever says Christ does not matter denies the Truth, is but blind or Ignorant to the Scriptures & the happenings around, the truth to life or death in the eternal.
abey(Quote)
you think that by having in your thoughts the word jesus is the saviour at the end you will be only saved, well I think you’re the ignorant, all jesus said are things that anyone with a logical mind would say, if a human being like him existed well I admire him and I also like him cause if everyone would be like him, we’d live in a better world, we should start behaving like him, why don’t you give up all your material possessions to the pòor if you’re really a christian?,if God (our kind and wise creator is really there he?she? it’d be wise and kind enough to save everyone who’s behaved and acted in harmony with nature and love to his/her siblings, wow i’ll condemn you because you didnt have the word jesus in your head, well you were a good person but rules are rules, how pathetic…don’t judge who will or won’t be saved, you might have a surprise,he,he, I just wish a world where everyone would start seeing each other as brother and sister, and start really taking care of our world, so when jusus comes he’ll have a surprise, we’re already in paradise, and you’re welcome to stay,
fern(Quote)
The greatest religious teachers have always known that religious works are allegories. There is no patriarch in the sky who determines everything. Instead, there is a divine energy from which we all come forth. God is within us, so is heaven and hell. If we do good, if we are kind, generous and just, we act in accordance with this divine force. If we are selfish, gratuitously cruel and petty, we act in accordance with demons, with evil. Our internal landscapes are not a fantasy, they are the only long-lasting truth.
If worshiping a personal god makes one a better person, I’m for it. If it makes a person more narrow-minded and self-righteous, I’m against it. For one person, following religious law leads to God. For another, it makes them hate God. Personally, I respond badly to laws, human or divine, but I do know people who are deeply good while following a more conventional path.
One can find God within us by being deeply devoted to Jesus. Or by following the teachings of countless Sufis. Or by meditating in the Zen tradition. Or, indeed, by being an atheist with a strong love of nature or sense of justice. Different kinds of souls respond to different symbols. That’s why there are different paths.
And this is not something that a person needs to be taught. We all know it if we are honest to ourselves.
fern(Quote)
Let none be deceived for Paganism & Atheism are but two sides of the same coin to the Plagiarism. Where a grieving heart is to solace, a restless one is to condemnation. “Amen” was the Word, is the Word & will be the Word.
abey(Quote)
No. The bird is the word.
Shycawn(Quote)
Satan who is a Liar, Murderer & a thief from the beginning does reflect the myth of the hindu Kris’na said to have had 20 thousand wives most of whom were stolen(thief), & their husbands killed(murderer), claiming them to be Evil(lies). again to the Myth of one of him coming in the form of ‘Avatars” thus can be identified to the “Abomination of Desolation” the final sign that is set to take place Prophesied by Daniel & confirmed by Jesus Himself, for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy, before the great & terrible day of the Lord, all but to identify that old testament one of which name was to Baal to Balan, his modern name to the truth of the above topic.To also know that strange god, a god of forces stated by Daniel can be identified to the Monkey faced god of hinduism. Truth is said to be stranger than fiction but to that, mistake not Biblical Prophecy with words like fanatism., for truth cannot be hidden for long but be revealed in the brightness of His coming, again to the Prophecy.
abey(Quote)
Andy G(Quote)
Hi Andy,
Thanks for your comment. I am actually going to work backwards through them and address some of your points:
1) Proving Jesus did not exist – Since you appear to be a man of science, I assume you know that saying “what if we prove Jesus did not exist” is an argumetum ad igrnorantum. The lack of evidence of P does not disprove P. Furthermore, what we can establish logically is that it is impossible to say “God does not exist.” By any objective, empircal measure we have knowledge of about 1/1000th% of the universe. That’s how vast it is. So given that fact, there is no possible way you can God does not exist because you have no data on the entire universe. So what you really mean to say is: “in my brief time living on Earth with barely an empirical sliver of knowledge about the universe, I have not encountered any evidence of God’s existence”, which would make you an agnostic, not an atheist. If you are being true to science as you profess.
2) It’s my burden to prove God – It’s actually not my burden. For one the topic of this article was not proving God’s existence. It was proving that the Gospel accounts were not stolen from pagan mythology. But on the topic of God’s existence, I still have no burden because I do not assert that I believe in God based on empirical proof. I believe in God based on faith. This is stated in virtually every article on this website. So I never presume to have empirical evidence of God’s existence. I am faith-based believer.
And you too, in addition to being agnostic are also a faith-based believer. Science has no answer whatsoever for the origin of matter. So you have to formulate an answer based on popular opinion or your own ideas and just put faith that is right and there really is no God who created matter ex nihilo. And that would be faith-based belief.
3) Fern’s Position – Fern said the following:
You praised this as the most enlightened comment in this thread. I would submit that Fern’s argument is lacking. Why? Because like most arguments against the Bible, it leaves out human sin. Sin is a violation of God’s law and rebellion. So to apply it to Fern’s example, why it may seem logical that a loving dad would “defend his son no matter what”, but what if that son, upon turning 21, spits in your face, curses you, tells you he has no father and wishes you were dead and says he never wants to see you again? Would you then force this son to live with you? Would you lock him in his bedroom and make him spend time with you? Rather than being loving, people would think you were insane. Your son has free will and authority over himself to leave your presence and if he chooses to, he will. This is what humanity has done to God. The problem is not a lack of God’s love – the problem is that sinful humanity is telling God “I don’t want you. I don’t want to be in your presence and I absolutely despite everything about you. Specifically your thought that you are an authority over me.” And in the face of this, you then expect God to make you stay with Him?
And with regards to sin, I challenge if any Dad would defend his son if they raped and murdered a small child. They may love them still, but defend them? Would that Dad seem remotely rational if he said “my son shouldn’t be punished for this. Just let him come home and carry on with his life because I love him so much.”??? No one would take that Dad seriously nor think they are being a “great parent.” The son in this hypothetical clearly deserves punishment for his crime and a father’s love does not subsume that. Well guess what? All of us, this author included, have an incredibly long “rap sheet” with God and in the face of God’s offer of free forgiveness and restoration, rather than take the time to even understand and know God and consider it, you are instead rejecting the Bible on face and arguing against the same God you don’t believe in on Christian websites.
We all make our choices. You said if God proved Himself to you tomorrow, you’d be a believer. So you would worship him? You’d read the Bible with an open heart and mind, pray, share the Gospel and try to find a good church? Well if that is the case, then listen to what God says? He reveals Himself through the Bible. He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Scripture says: “Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.” Romans 10:13 says: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” If you are ready to start admitting that you are not right with God and consider His offer of reconciliation, He will reveal Himself to you. I hope and pray you do.
Beginning and End(Quote)
Beginning and end
Thank you for your reply.
I don’t claim to know nearly as much as you about religion or the bible but I will attempt a rebuttal all the same.
You said ‘The lack of evidence of P does not disprove P’.
Well I’m sure we’ve all heard the teapot circling the sun idea. Of course we cannot prove that it doesn’t, but probability and common sense tell us it does not. Of course I could conjure up many more examples but I think we get the point.
You stated
‘I do not assert that I believe in God based on empirical proof. I believe in God based on faith’.
Is this why you avoided answering my question. ‘If it were finally proved tomorrow that Jesus didn’t exist or that he were a mortal man, I’m talking unequivocal evidence that you cannot refute, would you stop believing in your faith???
Your faith comes from reading the scriptures which to you is evidence of Gods existence. If the bible was never written, would you still have this faith?
So I ask again, what if historians discovered text which predates the bible proving a conspiracy between early Christians to immortalise Jesus and fabricate scripture. What would this do to your faith? The evidence which you believe totally discredited.
I answered this question from my atheist/agnostic view. I would believe.
However, you stated
‘So you would worship him? You’d read the Bible with an open heart and mind, pray, share the Gospel and try to find a good church?
I cannot answer this for sure but I do not believe I would. Just because God had been proved to be real doesn’t mean I would agree with his teachings. I would have a lot of questions for him and I hate the idea of living under a dictatorship, under totalitarian rule. At the moment I enjoy free will, but under religion I would have no such thing.
On your point about me praising Ferns views I take your point with respect to the section you quoted, however my praise was more directed at the following:
‘We’re free creatures, we should unite and create a magnificent world based on our reason, tecknology ,justice, cooperation and equality for everyone, it doesn’t matter if jesus existed or not.’
I like the sound of this existence and believe it preferable to the religious alternative. I’m sure you would disagree.
Thank you
Andy G(Quote)
Hi Andy,
Thanks for your comment. You did not respond to everything I said but I will reply to your most recent comments:
No, I do not get the point. We actually know a great deal about the sun and can observe it quite easily. It is the other 99% of the universe that we know nothing about and cannot observe at all. So one cannot say from a scientific, empirical standpoint “There is no God.” So are you an atheist or really an agnostic?
I find it interesting that you use the term “finally” as if you want this prove to surface. Interesting choice of words. But to answer your questions if Jesus Christ did not resurrect from the dead then my faith is completely, 100% in vain and pointless.
But of course your question and example of an ancient text of a Christian conspiracy begs the question: what if I could prove to you that there is no more documented or provable figure in anqiuity than Jesus Christ? And what if it could be shown that the amount of ancient writings about Him still in existence today dwarfs any other famous figure from antiquity? would you now believe what was written about Him?
So do you obey the laws of the nation/state you live in? Do you think it’s unfair that we even have a legal system? Is this something you find offensive?
Well by your worldview, there is no God, so we have been free, right? For the 6,000 years of recorded human history, how well have we done in creating a just, kind society? How have the regimes that have been atheistic done in promoting peace, cooperation and justice for all (think Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot)? I don’t think the facts support you and Fern’s theory. It has only been the law of God that is in everyone’s hearts (the human conscience) that has kept us all from destroying ourselves completely thus far. Where God is removed from society, we see nothing but moral decay and violence. And I challenge you to show me proof of otherwise.
Beginning and End(Quote)
Beginning and End.
Thanks again for the reply.
I know we can now observe the sun pretty well but this is not the point as I’m sure you know. We can pick another celestial body if you like that is further away. The point is if somebody makes a claim that cannot be disproved it doesn’t mean it is true.
Am I an atheist or an agnostic? Good question. I do use the term atheist but maybe I shouldn’t. I don’t believe in a creator but I cannot prove there wasn’t one so it would be small minded of me to 100% dismiss the idea.
You said:
‘I find it interesting that you use the term “finally” as if you want this prove to surface. Interesting choice of words. But to answer your questions if Jesus Christ did not resurrect from the dead then my faith is completely, 100% in vain and pointless’.
I respect you for answering this question. You’re the first.
You said:
‘But of course your question and example of an ancient text of a Christian conspiracy begs the question: what if I could prove to you that there is no more documented or provable figure in anqiuity than Jesus Christ? And what if it could be shown that the amount of ancient writings about Him still in existence today dwarfs any other famous figure from antiquity? would you now believe what was written about Him?’
The amount of ancient documented accounts doesn’t prove it is fact. No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. But before I run off on a tangent are you asking what I would believe if we had all these things?
You said:
‘So do you obey the laws of the nation/state you live in? Do you think it’s unfair that we even have a legal system? Is this something you find offensive?
I’d say I obey the vast majority of laws because I agree with them. I do not think it is unfair to have a legal system. In no way do I find this offensive. Why? Because I had a vote in electing the government of my choice as does almost everyone else. If I were to live under a creator I get no vote, no say. His word is infallible and final. Well what if I disagree, am I allowed, does this mean I go to hell even if I am a good person?
You said:
‘Well by your worldview, there is no God, so we have been free, right? For the 6,000 years of recorded human history, how well have we done in creating a just, kind society? How have the regimes that have been atheistic done in promoting peace, cooperation and justice for all (think Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot)? I don’t think the facts support you and Fern’s theory. It has only been the law of God that is in everyone’s hearts (the human conscience) that has kept us all from destroying ourselves completely thus far. Where God is removed from society, we see nothing but moral decay and violence. And I challenge you to show me proof of otherwise’.
Even if we concede that Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao were Atheists, they did not kill in the name of Atheism. They were brutal dictators, who killed to get political power.
communism was (and is) bad because it is totalitarian and dogmatic, just like religion. I believe in free thinking, i’m not against religion.
There are good and bad Christians, there are good and bad Muslims, there are good and bad atheists .You can’t determine if a person is good or bad by a label. You know what a person values by how they act. Consider the following values:
Free Thinkers value:
Reason
Skepticism
Individual Freedom from authority
No Dogma rules must be continually reevaluated and justified
Value Evidence and fact based truth and adjust your agenda to the facts
Think for yourself
Totalitarians value:
Unquestioning obedience
Centralized authority
Violent punishment for disobedience
Thought Control
Evidence suppression and propaganda, fit the facts to your agenda, control information, stifle debate
Emotional appeal
We’ll think for you -
Which set of values more closely matches the activities of religion?
I notice you left Hitler out of your list, I believe he was catholic or Christian and certainly the vast majority of his generals and soldiers were religious.
We both know I could retort with a list of my own of killings made in the name of religion. Please advise if you need it.
Can u tell me how to do the quotes in boxes so I can stop with the ‘you said’.
Thanks
Andy G(Quote)
I enjoyed this thread, especially the parts from Mac and Dr. O… not to mention Abey’s constant non sequiturs, but I digress. I had just seen the film Zeitgeist and wanted to see how accurate the Jesus comparisons were. I thought I’d heard it all before, so when I heard Peter Joseph’s story, about all the claimed similarities, I had to wonder. So a quick search brought me here. Figures that guy was full of puffery… his 9-11 contentions cast a long shadow on anything else he had/has to say.
Mr B&E, I have to applaud you on staying in character and comporting yourself well … always asking for people to post their sources/proof. Very clever of you. I guess if people are making certain assertions, that’s fair enough.
I’ve seen you post several times, that this thread is solely about whether Jesus was plagiarized from past religions. It doesn’t matter to me if he was real or not. The entire concept of a creator, that is smarter than Einstein to the millionth power, with so much to be busy with, would then create a planet rife with one imperfect life form after another. That is both beautiful and horrific at the same time. Where he’s encoded greed, fear and hatred into his preferred species’ DNA. Has punished every generation since “Adam and Eve” for their childlike sin of eating an apple, and suggesting a savior that is his “only begotten son”, which is also actually himself at the same time (the Trinity), instead of just declaring a “Mulligan” and showing love and mercy in the first place. Then “choosing a people” among all the world’s populations while ignoring the rest… is preposterous on its face, and has no business being discussed in a serious fashion in the first place.
We are thinking beings, and it bothers us to no end that we will cease to exist, and be completely forgotten. Who wouldn’t want to be resurrected to a place without pain and suffering? We all would… but fantasy has no place where reality beacons to the contrary. I do not waste my time calling myself an atheist. In fact, the big “A” atheists are just as dogmatic as any fundamentalist… be they Christian or Moslem. There are no clear answers, and to believe in a god that relies on trickery and obfuscation as a means of communication is patently unreasonable.
A real god, that had the powers you claim yours to have, and was also known as the “God of love”, would have NO PROBLEMS communicating directly to his “children” in a loving manner… and if he did such a thing… there wouldn’t be a single non believer to be found… except maybe among those that are currently profiting in his name.
I’m not sure what brand of Christianity you subscribe to, but many suggest that if you don’t/can’t find “the way”, god will kill you for it. Some even suggest that this “heavenly father” would not only kill, but magically preserve that person’s life as he continually tortures them with fire for eternity. Again, that kind of talk alone discredits the bible. There’s too much incongruity between a necessarily scientifically minded creator, and the small minded Yahweh/Jehovah of the bible; that is irreconcilable in my mind…. but faith has been known to paper over all sorts of incongruities and make leaps that otherwise couldn’t have been bridged.
—
You asked a question that went unanswered. “The writers of the Bible claimed to write Scripture based on direct inspiration and revelation from God. In other words, it was a supernatural process. Are you saying that they are lying?”
Yes, they were lying. Every bit as much as Joseph Smith was lying about his divine inspiration.
Joseph Morabito(Quote)
You do lie when you say you enjoy the thread, in all your regrets to the article, without regarding what the article is about, this is but to say your enjoyment comes from the spirit of the Anti Christ(Occultists) that works in you, suggest you seek help by beginning to understanding your very first name- Joseph, the truth of it.
abey(Quote)
Thanks Abey, that must be it… I lied. Whew, that sure summed it all up.
Oh, and my name is that of my father and his father before him. Nothing more. No one from the bible would turn their head in reply at the utterance of “Joseph”, just as I would not respond to however their names were actually pronounced in their day. I couldn’t care less about some loosey-goosey ancient tie in to my name… coincidence at best.
Still, I wish you no evil, though it’s fair to infer from the tenor of your comment that the feeling isn’t mutual.
Joseph Morabito(Quote)
Joseph I was not calling you a lier, but the anti christ spirit in you again lie, for you should know that all names are off God , just as the Bible states.
abey(Quote)