Pastor: Jesus Would Admit He Was Wrong On Gay Marriage


Christian Pastors Support Gay Marriage | End times apostasy

Reverend Oliver White thinks he knows better than Jesus Christ.

In a stunning sign of the growing apostasy – the rise of the false church in Christianity that no longer treats the Bible as its final authority, Reverend Oliver White of Grace Community United church, came on the radio show of Fox News Host Sean Hannity to proclaim that Jesus Christ  was “wrong” on the issue of homosexuality and gay marriage. In the interview, White, speaking for Jesus Christ, said  with respect to the issue of gay marriage no longer being a sin:  “If Jesus were alive today, I think he would be more inclined to say: ‘you know, I didn’t know it all’…”   The 3-part  interview is below.


In a debate with CNS editor Terry Jeffrey, Rev. White was asked if God intended for men to marry men and women to marry women, to which White responded: “By all means, yes.” An incredulous Jeffrey then asked how White could come to this conclusion and the Reverend responded by saying “I evolved” and that he changed his view by “assimilating and accommodating with people who are wonderful.”
Jeffrey then tried to use even more clear Scripture by pointing out that Jesus Christ defined marriage as between a man and woman. White replied: “If Jesus were alive today, he would be more inclined to say, “You know, I didn’t know it all.” When pressed further as to if Jesus would “change His mind today”, White again said “yes, He would.”  In addition to Rev. White’s statements being rank blasphemy and offense to Jesus Christ, it is a denial of Jesus as God in the flesh and Lord. The Bible says of Jesus Christ:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. – 1 Timothy 3:16.

Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. And the Word of God is unchanging. As Mr. Jeffrey pointed out in the interview, Jesus Christ defined marriage by quoting the book of Genesis:

And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. – Matthew 19:3-6.

Hebrews chapter 13 says: “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.” Jesus does not change and neither will His Word. His definition of marriage stands as Christian doctrine for all time. The verse above is followed up with the warning: “Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines..”
But this of course is what Reverend White and many other false prophet, apostate pastors have done – abandoning the Bible in favor of pleasing the world. White by his own admission based his “evolution” on homosexuality out of a desire to “assimilate” and “accommodate” the homosexual community. Even to the point that he claimed that it was okay to add to Scriptures and to “put a period” on the end of the Bible would be a mistake. Beloved, this man has no part with Biblical Christianity. This is heresy of the highest order. It is a satanic deception that has infiltrated the church in an attempt to draw people away from the true Christian faith and into Biblical error.

The Bible prophesied that this attack on the church, from the inside – at the hands of its own pastors would take place. The book of Jude states:

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. – Jude 1:3-7.

Notice in the text it says that the false teachers “crept in unawares.”  This is the method by which the church is being attacked today. It is not atheists with billboards and lawsuits  posing the greatest threat – it’s the men (and women) behind the pulpit who claim to be for the faith but in fact are “denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”  Rev. White denies Jesus by claiming He was wrong on certain moral issues and would change His mind “if he were alive” (a statement of ignorance as Jesus is most certainly alive today).
The passage in Jude continues with a warning of the dangers of being in such rebellion against God and uses the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were infamous for their rampant homosexuality (which the book of Jude describes as “fornication” and “going after strange flesh”) as an example of the punishment that awaits those who die in their sinful rebellion without the free forgiveness offered through salvation in Jesus Christ. Thus in addition to Jesus defining marriage as between a man and a woman in the Gospels, this passage also provides a New Testament confirmation of homosexuality being described as a sin outside of the Levitical law (which Christians are not saved by but still provides God’s standards of holiness).

Since proclaiming his openly pro-gay stance in 2005, White has seen his congregation dwindle and his church is now on the brink of foreclosure. He is  running a campaign to raise funds to pay off a high interest loan he took in 2007 (one wonders why he does not just “name and claim” his financial blessing to pay off the debt). In response to the mass departures White said:

“The membership evaporated right before my eyes. Their fundamental belief was it’s wrong for a man and a man to marry or a woman and a woman to marry. A lot of them said if I change, they’d come back. But I told them, it is what it is. I am who I am. And this is what I fight for.” (source).

The only fight White really is in is one against God. By wrongly claiming that “God is still speaking” so that Scripture can be changed, he is violating the clear warning of Jesus Christ in the final chapter of the Bible:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. — Revelation 22:18-19.

This is how seriously Jesus Christ takes the preservation of His Word, the Bible. No Christian, much less a pastor should ever take the liberty to ignore Scripture and change it as they feel. Much less in order to accommodate the sins of others and appease the world. The Apostle Paul emphasized the severity of this type of sin in the book of Galatians, writing: “As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.” (Galatians 1:9-10).


Believing the way Rev. White does is believing in a false Gospel that will not lead to Heaven.  Pray for this pastor to repent from his incredible spiritual error. And pray for the members still attending his church to use Biblical discernment and flee. The rise of pastors who are openly defying God and rejecting sound, biblical doctrine, is reaching epic proportions. But in the midst of this, The Lord will always keep His remnant of Bible believing Christians, who will understand that Jesus is Lord and we are His followers. Pray for Christians who still practice Biblical Christianity to maintain their faith in the face of an onslaught of compromise from right within the walls of the church itself.



“Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” – Matthew 5:13-16.


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  1. Natasha says:

    two critical things I love that you pointed out:

    “If he were alive today”? denial and blasphemy of the highest order. Denial of the resurrection which is of utmost importance to us as Christians

    1 Corinthians 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.

    2- Jesus changing his mind? being wrong???

    Hebrews 13: 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

    Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

    It truly is time to look up as redemption draws nigh…thanks for the constant updates


  2. BaE, you’ve seen enough of my comments to know how rare this is for me…

    …But I’m speechless.


    • I can understand your loss for words RETS (and for the record – I think this is the first time you’ve been at a loss for words). It is very sad and shocking at the same time.


      • It’s horrible. I just revisited this, and I’m still grasping for words.

        Unfortunately, you and I have not had the time to really get to know one another, but there is something that most of my friends know about me: If I’m speechless, especially if it lasts this long, it could be good or it could be very bad.

        It reminds me of my first exposure to Arianism. This gentleman stated, flat out, that Christ was no more than a created being whose existence had been planned and into whom a sinless nature was coded- In other words, there was no way Christ could ever sin. However, this man continued, Jesus was not God, “any more than you or I are God.”

        I was speechless and without the proper words for nearly a week. When I finally had the words, I invited this man to come and discuss the matter with me in front of the same group of people he had said this before originally. He accepted, and we ended up actually debating.

        In the end, though he did not change his mind, he came up to me, shook my hand, and stated, “you are a very dangerous man when impassioned. Please do not take offense if I never accept a debate with you in the future.”

        I do not recount this story to laud myself, but merely to emphasize this point: I am speechless; and I am speechless in the same manner as with the gentleman I just spoke of.

        Along the lines of this topic, I believe you’ve also looked at Love Wins by Rob Bell. There is a fantastic lecture/Q&A panel on YouTube that was put on by Dr. Bobby Conway and Life Fellowship Church that I’d like to recommend to you, as it not only addresses Bell’s book, but also a few of the points this pretender brings up. I’d love your thoughts on it as a whole as well.


        • Well I am glad that you stood your ground for the Word in the face of obvious heresy. This is what the future seems to hold – more and more people who claim Christianity as their faith but are willing to openly defy Jesus Christ The Lord.

          Thanks for the video on Bell (another pastor who is in open rebellion against The Word of God). I will check it out.


  3. on one hand i am laughing at the madness of this….on the other i am weeping.

    its ok though my friend asked me to look up a guy called Jesse Duplantis…..He makes probably the most insane claim of a christian preacher ive heard ever….He claims that Jesus never once claims to be the Son of God(you know the entire thesis to the christian religion)…..also apparently 7 of each animal gets put in the ark and my other favorite apparently he stops just short of calling God his child.

    yea christian preachers are going bonkers lol.

    good post….hilarious and sad.


    • If you read Genesis where God was speaking to Noah you will see that He did tell him to add 7 pairs of each clean species. Gen 7:2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female


  4. you know another thought as ive increasingly studied the lesser known scripture topics like the days of noah….giants….sodom and gomoirah(spelling?)…..and of course other things you dont agree with like the lost scriptures….enoch,jasher and others and putting it all together(not to start that argument there with you but just saying)

    and putting it all together…..i admit a few years ago the gay marriage thing yea it bugged me because well partly being a gay hater just because they are gay(the gay version of sexist?) and partly cause scripture says its wrong…..but as ive refined myself over the years…..where i dont hate people just because of that in fact i try not to hate anyone…..though doesnt mean i dont get ticked off and im not willing to take a stand or fight as there is no reason you cant love your enemy and kill the person you love if need be.

    that said all this when put together i am even more horrified at the gay movement…..since if you break it all down the flood of noah is brought about by two things primarily from what i can tell…..evilness in all the creations of earth and illicit sex acts. homosexuality is an illicit sex act. sodom and gomorah also had illicit sex acts. it seems this gay marriage is normal is just steam rolling us to normalizing illicit sex acts which appears to be one of the primary causes of the giant flood and the sodom and gomorah. thinking of it that way the normalization of the gay lifestyle frightens me a lot more than most people probably.

    i will say i dont think homosexuality was the cause….i still think we need angels to join in on the fun openly….that said i think the next step that caused the flood was human-animal hybrids which i dont think is all that far off. genetics has been working on this for the better half of a hundred years now. and animal human porn is rampant. this would all lead to once again a polluted defiled genetic code of the world…..heck we justify mixing the seed of fruits and vegetables to create different kinds of food.

    while that last part seems harmless i think we should bear in mind something thats come to mind lately….Gods first great commandment to the world is what? to go forth and multiply after your own kind

    genesis 1

    12 And the earth abrought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his bkind: and God saw that it was good.

    20 And God said, Let the awaters bbring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and cfowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    21 And God created agreat whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and amultiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

    23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

    24 ¶And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his akind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

    25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be afruitful, and bmultiply, and creplenish the dearth, and subdue it: and have edominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

    God seems to indicate going after our own kinds only……while it might appear to only reference humans…..this seems however to then contradict how all flesh on the earth could be corrupt…..if it was angels mating with humans then only the human-angel hybrids would be guilty also if these illicit sex acts and hybrids were the cause of all flesh getting corrupted its reasonable to say the animals were in on it too whether willingly or not they seem to have the same dont commit inter-species-sex commandment too… i think the commandment extends to all life as a blanket “mate with your own species only”. that and noah brings two of each kind again a heavy emphasis on sticking to your own species. and given later in the old testament we get warnings against human-animal sex acts it seems clear the earth has a series a problem with not sticking to their own species.

    also the parts before that in genesis 1 point out these creatures multiplying. so clearly God seems to focused on His creations multiplying and filling earth.

    having said all that this is why the gay marriage being normal frightens me more than it should. it violates the very first commandment God gives the earth….go forth and multiply.


  5. Wow now I know. God would admit He was wrong about something. Man that clears it all up.


  6. tentimes better says:

    Disobedience and unrelenting arrogance have no cure but repentance Mr Wright!

    1 Peter 2:6-8 NKJV

    Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, “Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.” Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.


  7. tentimes better says:

    Oops Mr White!


    • Wow! This Rev. White is a major embarassment… NEVER before have I seen a Black pastor claim that Christ would accept gay marriage! It was bad seeing Obama claim he opposed gay marriage when he ran the first time, then do a complete 180 (& blame his daughters for changing his mind!) when he was aboout to run for re-election.

      One thing I know is that Grown Folks Don’t Change — short of having a near-death experience or a supernatural encounter.(“Train up a child in the way he should go & when he is old, he will not depart from it. – Proverbs 22:6) I realize now that Obama always supported gay marraige — he just lied to the public about his TRUE beliefs because he knew it would hurt his chances of getting elected the first time.

      But I’m deeply worried about Sasha & Malia & the false morality they’re being taught. Their parents claim to be Christians. (In fairness to Michelle, I don’t think she’s ever said that she supports gay marriage.) But when your dad is also the president & he’s teachiing you morals that contradict the faith he claims to embrace, what will those girls end up believing — God’s word or daddy’s?


      • It’s simply called separation of church and state. This is supported by the US constitution, Everson v. Board of education 1947, and kiryas Joel village school district v. Grumet 1994. Fornication is viewed as being just as bad or worse than homosexuality in the entirety of the Bible and referenced much more often and broadly i might add, and yet it is not illegal by federal or state law. This is a reflection of sheer rationality. a politicians religious beliefs should never directly influence their executive or legislative decisions. This would be treasonous and illegal by united states law. If you are going to vilify someone for a legal or political position such as your views on same sex marriage, at least be consistent and campaign for illegalization of fornication and other like sins, thank you.


        • First of all, Eric, I’m not ‘villifying’ anyone, I’m merely stating a fact. Obama lied to the public about His Personal Beliefs on gay marriage when he ran the 1st time because he knew that publicly supporting that agenda would cost him enough votes to keep him out of the White House. Then, when he was up for re-election (but still not required to take legislative action on the issue), he came out in favor of gay marriage. He reversed his personal morals in order to kow-tow to David Geffen & the rest of the gay elites because he wanted their fat donation checks. Which revealed the true content of Obama’s character to the entire world. And he lost repsect on a global scale because of that.

          Separation of church & state has nothing to do with this. The concept of marriage as a permanent relationship between 1 man & 1 woman pre-dates organized religion. It’s an idea as old as civilization itself because heteroseuxal marriage provides the best possible arrangement for having & raising children — period. Human history has proven that. Marriage leads (in most cases) to the birth of children in order to create families & the family is the cornerstone of society. But society would becoem extinct if gay relationships became the norm.

          Naure itself proves to the world that gay marriage makes no sense because gay couples can’t have children. If homosexuality ever became widespread, the human race would disappear in less than 3 generations. Gays can resort to various artificial means to acquire a child, but that doesn’t make 2 men or 2 women the natural, normal, best environment for raising children — & it never will.

          The people behind the Gay Agenda were very smart to have figured out back in the 1990s that they should push for adoption rights first, rather than marriage rights. Once the majority of states were allowing gay couples to adopt, gays could point to that normalization as proof that gay couples were just as worthy of parenthood as married straight couples, so gays should be allowed to marry too. And that’s exactly what they’re pushing for now.

          Gays can yammer on about this until the cows come home, but true Christians who follow the bible aee not going to be moved or deceived. God considers homosexuality an abomination — period. Since the beginning of human history, even in cutures with no religious values, marriage has ALWAYS been a permanent relationship between a man & a woman, because marriage is the best arrangement for creating & raising children. Which is not to say that children are the only reason to marry. The marriages of couples without children are no less valid than marriages with kids. But nature itself makes it plain to anyone with half a brain that gay couples have no business being married because same sex couples can’t make children without involving a 3rd party. It takes a man & a woman to make a child because the male-female relationship is the basis for the family unit.

          If being gay is really just a question of personal wiring & you have no conotrol over it, then why do so many gays want to mimic heterosexual couples by marrying & having kids in the first place? Why not just be gay & live with your seme-sex lover & go on about your lives instead of trying to force the rest of society to give your relationship the same status as a married heterosexual couple?

          Gays are pushing for marriage now because Satan’s best trick is to pervert & counterfeit everything within God’s teachings, to make people think that good is bad, black is white, up is down & wrong is right. But a real Christian knows better.

          All sin offends God. Fornication covers all sex outside of marriage — it is no more or less offensive to the Lord than homosexuality. And oddly enough, God chose not to specify fornication in the 10 Commandments. He could easiy have slipped it in there instead of adultery in commandment #7, but He chose not to. I can’t speculate on why that is. But I do know that the prohibition against fornication is implicit within the 7th commendment. And the scriptures make it clear in many other places that fornication is a sin that will lead to death, just as they make it clear that homosexuality is an abomination.

          So Eric, your straw man argument won’t fly here. God hates fornication just as much as homosexuality. I personally don’t have to speak out against fornicators because fornicators aren’t petitioning the supreme court to gain legal validation of their sinful behavior. I won’t ever be forced to give fornicators the same legal status as married heterosexual couples. But if the supreme court gets this wrong, all kinds of small business owners could suffer. Someone who owns a restaurant could be sued for refusiing to let a gay couple hold their wedding reception there.

          I don’t have to speak out against the filth people choose to engage in behind closed doors unless it effects me. When you try to force it down my throat by claiming you deserve the same right to marry as straight couples, then you’re forcing me to treat gays like they are the same as heteroseuxal couples — & that’s a lie. As a Christian, I refuse to condemn myself in the things that I approve of because I will have to answer to God at the end of my days, not to you or the supreme court.

          “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!” – Isaiah 5:20


          • RC, i just went over your comment and have to tell you that I am very impressed. You have been able to put it all together. Thank you, I may have to copy parts of it just because weather some people like it or not, it’s the truth. God bless


          • RC, You spoke the truth very well. Only if all Believers in GOD would be so convicted! Please let me add, that, desiring any kind of sexual activity outside of a God-ordained heterosexual marriage violates the Commandment against Coveting. Wanting something that is forbidden by GOD to have. YAH Bless!


          • I just have to say, who are you to judge, when the Bible clearly states that the Almighty Lord is the only one with the authority to judge. First of all, how can you judge homosexuals when you sin just as we do, we all pray for forgiveness each night for our sins. The thing that Heterosexual people do not understand, is that it is not a choice we make by being homosexual. This is something that cannot be explained other than, could you (as a heterosexual person) see yourself, trying to force yourself to have feelings of love for the same sex? I take it that your answer is no. God would not want us to force something that is declared sacred in the Bible. Secondly: Nowhere on the 10 commandments does it state anything about homosexuality. Those commandments are choices we can make, for example, i can choose to honor my mother and father, but I cannot choose to change my sexuality. No one knows what the Almighty Lord thinks, but him. Thus I will account for my sins in Heaven one day, just as you will, there I will be judged by God, no man or mortal shall have the right to judge, as the Bible states “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone”. I know that you will reply to this message in a hateful manner, and I do not blame you, as it’s human nature to defend ourselves, but if you have the least bit of decency, then you will not reply with a negative comment, and just leave it at that. Deep down, you know that you cannot judge homosexual people, because no living creature is without sin. By the way, that a 19 year old boy has to share with you the 9th commandment You must not tell lies. This means that you must never say anything about another person that is false. If you are saying something that is true, then be careful about the way that you say it. Also Don’t quote Leviticus to me. In Galatians Paul says we are no longer under the Law. Paul said Leviticus is the yoke of slavery, Galatians 5:1. And if you think God was talking about the ceremonial Law, not the moral Law. Where in the Bible does it state there’s a difference between moral law and ceremonial law? That distinction was made up by men. You cannot look down upon me, as I cannot look down upon you, as stated by

            1 Peter 3:8
            “Finally, all of you should be of one mind. Sympathize with each other. Love each other as brothers and sisters. Be tenderhearted, and keep a humble attitude.”

            1 Peter 4:8
            “Most important of all, continue to show deep love for each other, for love covers a multitude of sins.”

            So to end this conversation I would like to say that I will pray for all of you my brothers and sisters, just as I hope you will pray for me, but I ask of you one thing, do not throw my sin in front of my face.


            • Gordon G. says:

              Anyone who claims to be a Christian and does not, at least eventually, believe that Homosexuality is a sin, is not a true believer and follower of GOD. Homosexuality is a sin, that, if gone unrepented of, leads one directly to Eternal Damnation in Hell and then into the Lake of Fire. Every sin, be it lying, drunkeness, stealing, murdering, or sexual immorality of any sort, etc., is a great offense to the Holy GOD of Creation and HIS Son Yahushua (JESUS), and leads any violator to Damnation, again, if gone unrepented of. Calling out the sin of Homosexuality is not “judging”, it is echoing what GOD Himself says about it, and HE calls HIS people to stand up for Righteousness, and to stand up against sin and evil, and to call it for what it is.


            • Gordon G. says:

              Anyone who claims to be a Christian and does not, at least eventually, believe that Homosexuality is a sin, is not a true believer and follower of GOD. Homosexuality is a sin, that, if gone unrepented of, leads one directly to Eternal Damnation in Hell and then into the Lake of Fire. Every sin, be it lying, drunkeness, stealing, murdering, or sexual immorality of any sort, etc., is a great offense to the Holy GOD of Creation and HIS Son Yahushua (JESUS), and leads any violator to Damnation, again, if gone unrepented of. Calling out the sin of Homosexuality is not “judging”, it is echoing what GOD Himself says about it, and HE calls HIS people to stand up for Righteousness, and to stand up against sin and evil, and to call it for what it is


              • He has was without sin threw the first stone. I am not even going to comment, just know that I love you, regardless of you not listening to my request.


                • The Commandment against committing Adultery CAN be a Commandment against Homosexuality, for those homosexuals who have sex with men who are married.
                  But, the Commandment against Coveting thy neighbours possessions would be a Commandment against Homosexuality because before you have sex with another man, you are wanting what he has that does not belong to you. His sexual body parts do not belong to you, and you are wanting them, and that is coveting. Coveting is lusting or something, or wanting something that belongs to another person.
                  And, I understand the Homosexual struggle because I have been there. I know what it is. The difference between you and me is that I DO know that Homosexuality is a sin, and it is not “okay” in the Eyes of GOD, no matter how many “preachers” and “Christians” tell you otherwise.
                  Homosexuality does involve choice.
                  It does for you NOW, because you have been confronted with the Truth that Homosexuality is a sin, and now you have to make a choice between continuing on in Homosexuality or wanting deliverance from it by the Power of GOD.
                  Again, me stating what is right and what is wrong is not “judging” you. It is telling you what GOD already says about a particular given sinful sexual desire.
                  And, you are not really asking GOD for Forgiveness “everyday” when you’ve made up your mind that you are going to continue on in Homosexuality. All that does is deceive you into thinking you’re “okay” before GOD, and it temporarily relieves any possible feelings of shame and guilt. But, it does not wipe away the true guilt that you have before GOD concerning this sexual sin.


                  • You believe that the commandment of adultery is against homosexuality, but where in the Bible does it state this? So you take it upon yourself to twist the words of the Bible, to make it what you THINK it is, or what it “could be”. The Commandment you mentioned, the one against Coveting, I see you have an interesting take on it, for again you twist the Bible’s words, and you see only what you want to see. If a homosexual desires another mans “body parts” before sexual intercourse (as you claim), then what makes the heterosexual any different in that area. I would also like to point out, that you are generalizing here, because some homosexual men, also have the view of getting married before having intercourse. I do not in the least agree with what this pastor is saying ” that Jesus would admit he was wrong”, but it is not your place to judge. And NO you do not understand, because you and I are not the same, can I also just say, that the way you make me feel, is that you influencing me in a negative way, because I can feel I am being driven further from my faith because of your remarks. It is NOT a choice you can make AND HOW DARE YOU JUDGE ME!!! and generalize me with the rest of the gay population .

                    But in fact you are judging, because the way you manipulate the commandments, trying to make them seem as if it was aimed at homosexual, when your eyes are closed and you do not see what you are saying involves heterosexual people as well.

                    Galatians 3:28

                    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

                    This is not even about sexual intentions, this is exactly what I am talking about! you are missing the point. Homosexual people can love just as much as heterosexual people.

                    “Saul and Jonathan, beloved and lovely!
                    In life and in death they were not divided;
                    they were swifter than eagles,
                    they were stronger than lions.
                    How the mighty have fallen in the midst of battle!
                    Jonathan lies slain upon your high places.
                    I am distressed for you my brother Jonathan;
                    Greatly beloved were you to me;
                    your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.”
                    (2 Samuel 1:23, 26-27)

                    “your love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.”
                    – This proves that two men can love each other honestly, nothing to do with sexual intentions. It is possible to love another man, more than you love a woman.

                    Please, don’t tell me that I am not really asking for forgiveness each day when I pray, because you are not one to judge me. It is up to God and God alone to forgive me, I don’t pray to you, I pray to the Good Lord.

                    You are really having a negative influence on my faith, so what are your intentions?


                  • Gordon G. says:

                    If you continue to believe that Homosexuality is somehow acceptable to GOD, then, what are you asking forgiveness FOR?
                    If you really believe that Homosexuality is not a sin to GOD, then what’s the point of asking for HIS Forgiveness?
                    And, it IS a sin for a heterosexual to lust after someone of the opposite sex, if they are not married to each other!
                    Any sexual thought, desire or lustful longing, that is not in the confines of a heterosexual marriage of one man with one woman, is a sin!
                    So, it’s not just Homosexuality that is a sin, and I never inferred that it was.
                    Yes it IS possible for a man to love another man more than he does for a woman, but it is completely PLATONIC, with no homosexual lust involved. Thoughts can enter the mind, but, they must be halted and cast down as quick as possible and not be entertained or focused upon, because thinking thoughts of homosexual lust will eventually lead to homosexual acts, if not curtailed.
                    That’s just how it is for all.
                    If you involve yourself freely in homosexual thoughts, and acts, then you do not have a genuine Faith in the Holy GOD of the Bible.
                    GOD says Homosexuality is a sin. And, anyone who wants to folllow HIM must believe what HE says is a sin.
                    Any pastor who says that GOD is “okay” with Homosexuality is a false pastor and a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
                    You accuse me of manipulating the Scriptures, but, to claim that GOD is good to go with Homosexuality, and to post Scriptures of the friendship between David and Jonathan as “proof” of GOD condoning Homosexuality is a true manipulation of Scriptures.
                    An attempt to have one foot in the sinful world and the other in Heaven.
                    It will not work.
                    Both of your feet must be planted in GOD’s Kingdom, if you want to enter GOD’s Heaven.
                    Repent and get out of Homosexuality by asking GOD to free you from it. And, rid of other sins from your life in the like manner, by the Blood of YAHUSHUA.


                • Then he said unto her Sin no more. Sin is sin but has its degrees, for there was no sin which was so utterly destroyed by God than the sin of Homosexualism to Sodom, Justifying a sin is even greater sin , so come out of her. to the Prophecy of Spiritual Sodom & Egypt, in its ancient beliefs


            • Sorry “Believer”, but if you want to be around Christians who will overlook your sins & make excuses for them, you came to the wrong place.

              No one is so dense that they would try to equate God’s commandment against adultery with the rule against homosexuality. They are both sexual sins but they involve different acts. Homosexuality is not mentioned in the 10 Commandemnts, but God dealt with it elsewhere in the scriptures. And He explicitly condemned it, called it “an abomination”. Gordon G didn’t ‘judge’ your homosexulaity, nor did I. God judged homosexuality & labeled it an abomination — period.

              If that fact has “a negative influence on your faith”, what right do you have to call yourself Christian? When your behavior contradicts what the scriptures teach, then It’s Your Behavior Needs To Change — Not God’s Word.

              Grace is defined as unmerited favor, being given a break when we don’t deserve it. Since we are all born into sin thanks to Adam & Eve, none of us deserves to escape the consequences of sin, which is death. You might try reading up on divine grace to get a better grasp of that. Christ died as payment for our sins, therefore the crucifixion granted us forgiveness through God’s grace. The gift is free but we must each actively claim it for ourselves.

              When we accept Christ as our Lord & Savior, confess our sins, REPENT of sinning & strive to live a godly life from that day forward, then we have salvation through grace. And when we fall short of the mark, as everyoen does, as long as we confess & repernt of our sin, we remain a child of God under His grace.

              But the fact that it’s free doesn’t mean grace is cheap. You cannot live as a gay person actively involved in that lifestyle, sinning against God via gay sex, then turn around every day & ask God to forgive you! Just as adulterers cannot cheat on their spouse routinely, ask God’s forgiveness then continue cheating. Such behavior will only earn you God’s wrath, not his forgiveness. God is nobody’s fool.

              “Believe”:, the fact that you say you’re asking for God’s forgiveness each day means you know in your heart that your gay behavior is grevious to God. So you know it needs to stop.

              “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. – Galatians 6: 7-8

              Can God be any more straightforward than that?

              You can try to fool youself into believing that we here are the ‘bad’ ones for ‘judging’ you. But experience has taught me that folks who are quick to throw out the admonishment from Matthew 7 are ALWAYS wolves in sheep’s clothing, claiming to be Christians but behaving like demons. I know this because they always fail to continue quoting the rest of that chapter, which expounds on & amplifies the first verse:

              Matthew chapter 7:
              1. Judge not, that ye be not judged.
              2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
              3. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
              4. Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

              Verse 5 is where the essential message hits home:

              5. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”

              The point of this section of Matthew is NOT to warn Christians to refrain for judging sin in others. The point it to warn us Not To Judge Others For Sins You Are Guilty Of Yourself! The scriptures are telling Christians to eliminate our own sinful behavoir before judging someone else for the same wrongs we are also guilty of.

              But I’m not a lesbian, so I don’t have to correct myself first before telling you that your homosexuality is a sin that you need to walk away from.

              On the issue of judgement, the bible makes it clear that Christians ALWAYS have the right to judge the sins of non-believers, as well as the actions of other Chrisitians who are sinning against God. If we who belong to Christ refuse to speak out against sin in this world, who will? That doesn’t mean believers should devote their lives to forming political groups to fight against againt one particular sin and forget all the others. All sin is offensive to God & all Christians are obligated to speak out against all kinds of sins. Jesus never ran for office or spoke out in support of any politician or leader during his time on earth.

              And yes, telliing someone that what they’re doing is wrong means we are making a judgement aboout their actions — which is precisely what Paul reveals in Corinthains that God plans for us during the time after Christ’s return:

              “Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? And if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to this life? – 1 Corinthians 6: 2-3

              Read it again, “Believer” & try to get your mind around what God has planned for those who follow Him:

              “Know ye not that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to this life?”

              The demons that control your behavior (that control sinful behavior in all humans), make you angry & uncomfortable when Christians point out the sinfulness of homosexuality. All any demon wants is a safe home to dwell in, a soul they can enslave & destroy through sin. Demonic spirits of homosexuality goad you into defending your gayness because they don’t want you to embrace God’s truth, repent of your sins & evict them from within your being. Sounds fantastic I know, but there is plenty of biblical evidence, dating back to the era of Noah, to prove that this world is overrun with demons looking to corrupt human souls.

              And don’t get it twisted — telling you that your gay behavior is a sin does not constitute “a negative influence on your faith”. Our job is not to coddle you & soft soap your sins. As Christians, we’re obligated to shine a light on the evil in this world & call it what it is. No one else is willing or even qualified to do so, because the rest of the world doesn’t follow Christ or obey God’s laws! The rest of the world revels in sin because they are under the satanic influence that dominates this world, for now.

              And don’t take my word on that. Pull up a KJV bible online yourself & read what it says about the last days & the great apostasy.


            • Gary Owen says:

              Hi everyone!

              I couldn’t figure out how to comment at top of page and thought this would be a good place to make a few comments.
              1. We can’t always tell how a person feels from comments. However, I’d agree that quoting scripture is not judging; we don’t need to, God’s word does the judging.. I personally love all people and so does God. However, God hates sin and so do I.
              2. If we believe the Bible, then we believe that homosexuality is a sin as well as fornication, adultery, etc. ! Corinthians 6:9-10. (Not the only scriptures)
              3. Making sin a life style (practicing sin) separates us from God. Falling short and sinning and getting back up and repenting keeps us in a relationship with Father God and Jesus the Christ. I feel that we are on very dangerous ground if we think we can continue to just go ahead and practice sin whenever we want and then run to God to repent. Wouldn’t that be a way of mocking God? God isn’t stupid, he knows our heart.
              4. Homosexuality is an evil spirit (demon) that has attached to the person. I believe it can even be a generational curse, therefore, a possibility of a person being born with the evil spirit of homosexuality. Don’t ever get this confused with God causing a person to be born as a homosexual, God is LOVE and doesn’t function in that way. You might be a homosexual that can always remember being that way all the way back to a young child. Again, I feel that could be from a generational curse or probably early molestation. One of the things that is common with homosexuals is that they were sexually molested prior to becoming a homosexual.
              Again, homosexuality is an evil spirit ( demon), as is a spirit of suicide, most anger, rejection,murder, hate, addictive spirit, stealing spirit, controlling spirit, spirit of retardation, spirit of insanity, spirit of infirmity, etc. I don’t feel all retardation is of a evil spirit, but I do know that the devil doesn’t play fair and will have his demons occupy everywhere that he can. I do believe that nearly all, if not all insanity is demonic as the demons have stolen the person’s mind.
              5. All a person needs to do to rid themselves of any of these tormenting spirits is to receive Jesus Christ as their Savior and command the evil spirits to go. And don’t go back to practicing any type of sin and open the door for them to return. Jesus cast out many demons when He walked the earth and He gives us the same power to do so if we have accepted Him as our Savior. James 4:7 “Submit to God, resist the devil and he shall flee. Stay obedient to God and command those evil suckers to go!

              When we are obedient to God, the devil and his demons have absolutely no power over us. Put into your browser: “Knowing who I am in Christ” and get a copy of the scriptures of who you are in Christ and strive to declare those scriptures each day at least once. Ask God what to study in your Bible each day, pray (I like to mix prayer with praise and worship music) and spend “quiet time” with God!
              Remember that the Bible tells us that we will know a tree by its fruit. Professing to be a Christian doesn’t make us one. We must receive Jesus as our Savior (Romans 10:9-10) and be obedient. When we sin, repent (sorrowful and make a 180 degree turn and obey God). Remember what Colossians 3:17 says: All that you do in word or deed, do it in the name of Jesus. And when you give thanks to God, do it in the name of Jesus.” I only comment to help others improve their lives and come to the fullness of Christ.
              God’s Blessings on each of you and yours!
              Dr. Gary


  8. “The apostles never modified the gospel to avoid offending people and to match accepted ideas of the day. Nor did they take the bits of the gospel that people liked and preach those only. They preached an uncompromising, full-blooded truth. There really was such a thing as the offence of the Cross. The Cross is an ultimatum, a call to rebels to lay down their arms. God does not adapt to human opinion nor consult with the corrupted minds of sinful men. Paul did not enter into dialogue to find some common ground of “interfaith”- agreement. There was no agreement. The Cross of Christ stood out starkly against the sky for Greeks and Jews alike. God bless you and have a wonderful day.” REINHARD BONNKE


  9. Another wolf in sheeps clothing just forgot to put the sheep clothing on before he opened up his mouth and started lying.

    Also why is he calling himself REVEREND? That’s one of Gods name.

    Only one time is it found:
    Psalms 111:9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.

    Now we do know Satan wants to be God and his ministers likes to try to be God too:
    2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    so no wonder this false teacher picked the title Reverend.


  10. Mr White is clearly wrong on this issue. He needs to evaluate his relationship with the Lord. Matthew 10:24
    “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master”.
    How can Mr White claim to know more than the God whom he supposedly serves?
    God does not support gay marriage – Romans 1:26-27 – “For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.”
    I hope this “reverend” will realise his error and repent.


  11. Leviticus 18:22 says.. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
    From the Old Testament before Jesus time, so if Jesus was to say that he was wrong as Mr White sees it, Jesus would be denying our Father. Mr White may Jesus have mercy on you. Praise to theto Holy Father and Son.


  12. Actually Jesus is God in human form. That s why there’s, The Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. Jesus was the example on how to live a Godly life. Bibles states that Man and Woman were intended for each other how else are we suppose to fruitfully multiply.
    John 10:30
    New International Version (NIV)
    30 I and the Father are one.”
    Genesis 2:24
    New International Version (NIV)
    24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.


  13. Why is there a video about Rob Bell on this page? Other than the fact that Bell is a heretic just like the other phony pastor this article is about. Oliver White is not a pastor belonging to Jesus Christ, he is an agent of Satan! His church needs to kick him out of his post or face judgment with him because it means they agree with him. That is just more blasphemy.


    • This is not a pastor. He is from the enemy. Now I understand what Jesus means when He said “Not everyone who calls Me Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of God but he who does the will of My Father who is in Heaven” This person unless he repents and turns back to the Truth of Jesus Christ will have to go through the tribulation or when he dies will g straight to Hell only to be judged later on by Jesus Himself and then cast into the Lake of fire to burn for all of eternity. Sadly more people enter Hell then Heaven. Narrow is the way and like Jesus said only a few find it. That is the truth.


  14. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

    And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not

    2 Peter 2:1-3 (KJV)


  15. Charles D says:

    Someone is wanting to come out of the closet, but needs to change the bible first.


  16. If I could make one comment about this article (which I agree with), it would be that I disagree with the decision to use quotes from the King James throughout. That translation is over 500 years old and many in our country won’t understand everything said, or will have difficulty understanding it. Why can’t we use a contemporary translation that people can understand easily? If Jesus spoke in the language of his day, then why don’t we do the same thing and use modern English? It’s not as if any of his original words were spoken in middle English anyway, so I just don’t understand why people persist in always using the King James when trying to influence people today.


    • Hi Steve,

      Thanks for your comments. This is an excellent question. It is this author’s contention that the King James version is the best English version available. The modern versions (NIV, NASB, ESV, etc.) are translated from manuscripts that have very questionable origin (i.e, I do not believe they are from ca 400 AD) and have many, many errors (David Parker, Professor of Theology and the Director of the Institute for Textual Scholarship and Electronic Editing at the Department of Theology and Religion, University of Birmingham, who is an expert in textual crticism, counted 23,000 corrections in the codex Sinaticus). As such, I do not find those versions to be reliable. The NIV, the most popular Bible version in America has 64,000 less words than the King James version. I will give just a few examples of discrepancies between the two versions:

      1 John 4:3 (KJV) ” And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,”

      1 John 4:3 (NIV) ” but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist,”

      Here we can see that an antichrist spirit will not confess that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. But in the NIV as long a a spirit says Jesus is “from God” than we can receive them. This is a major error.

      Philippians 2:6 (KJV) “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”

      Philippians 2:6 (NIV) “Who, being in the very nature of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,”

      In the KJV we get confirmation that Jesus is God. In the NIV, we are told that Jesus did not even think He could grasp equality with God. This again, is a very major error.

      Galatians 5:12 (KJV) “I would they were even cut off which trouble you.”

      Galatians 5:12 (NIV) “As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!”

      In the KJV, Paul is telling the church in Galatia that he wished those who were trying to Judaize the church and bring in a false Gospel would be “cut off” or leave the church alone. In the NIV, Paul is wishing that they castrate themselves! (which means to cut off one’s own private parts). Such a sloppy, shoddy translation, again, cannot be trusted. And there are many more examples. So we stand on the KJV, which was based on the majority of manuscripts (5200) available as opposed to the modern versions which were based on 2 corrupt versions.

      I do however understand your concerns. Our ministry has many readers from all over the world to whom we are very, very grateful as we wish to share God’s Word in all nations. We do link our verses to Biblegateway, where you can read them in other versions and some other languages. Is there anything we can do to make reading the site easier? Should we provide a translation button? We are very open to suggestions but with respect to Scripture we have to adhere to the best and most reliable version. Thanks again and I do hope to hear back from you. God bless.


      • I disagree so much. The NASB is the best translation today. It gives the most literal translation of the source and it comes form a variety of sources. I noticed that you are guilty of doing what most people do when defending the KJV- you lump the NASB with the inferior NIV, and when you do a comparison, and the NIV comes up short, you then apply that to the NASB as well. KJV vs NIV shows the problems with the NIV and the NIV alone. The NASB is NOT the same as the NIV. You should do a verse for verse comparison between the KJV and the NASB. If you do you will see that all those reasons you gave do not apply.


        • Hi SJS,

          Thanks for your comments. I would like to make some NASB specific critiques:

          Luke 4:4
          KJV – And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

          NASB – And Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”

          Jesus in this passage is quoting Deuteronomy 8:3 which says: “And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live”.

          Sticking in the same passage (the temptation of Christ by Satan)

          Luke 4:8

          KJV And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

          NASB – Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”

          Why is the rebuke of Satan, which establishes Christ’s superiority to him, removed? This is just a bizarre omission.

          Matthew 27:35

          KJV And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

          NASB And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting [a]lots.

          Again, this is critical because Jesus fulfilling the Messianic prophecies is how He fulfilled the law (John 19). Matthew repeatedly references Old Testament prophecies to establish that Christ The Lord is indeed the prophesied Messiah of the Old Testament.

          John 7:8
          KJV Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

          NASB Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.”

          Jesus did indeed go to this feast. Just not right away. So the KJV is accurate while the NASB makes The Lord a liar.

          1 Timothy 3:16

          And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

          NASB By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was [a]vindicated [b]in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

          This verse is a strong profession of the deity of Christ in the KJV. Why is “God” changed to “he” in the NASB? We know that Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus “The Mighty God”. The Psalms see The Lord calling Jesus “God.” This is the point the Apostle Paul is making through inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Any “he” can be manifest in the flesh just by being born. Only Jesus is “God manifest in the flesh.”

          Daniel 3:24-25

          KJV Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

          NASB Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste; he said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They replied to the king, “Certainly, O king.” 25 He said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire [v]without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

          Nebuchadnezzar clearly saw JESUS CHRIST THE LORD in the fiery furnace with Sharach, Meshach and Abednago. This was an appearance of the preincarnate Christ and a foreshadow of Christ saving all those who believe from the Lake of Fire. It is an amazing, beautiful story of The Gospel and God’s salvation.

          In the NASB the king sees “a son of the gods”? What on Earth does this mean? It’s basically pagan and an insult to the deity and Sonship of The Lord.

          Galatians 6:13-15

          13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

          NASB 13 For those who [a]are circumcised do not even keep [b]the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through [c]which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new [d]creation.

          The KJV is clear – that when you are IN CHRIST, circumcision bears no relevance to your salvation. You are already a new creature with your heart circumcised. In the NASB, it reads as if circumcision itself is the new creature. It just makes no sense.

          Luke 11:1-3

          KJV And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

          NASB It happened that while [a]Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.” 2 And He said to them, “When you pray, say:
          ‘[b]Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. 3 ‘Give us each day our [c]daily bread. 4 ‘And forgive us our sins,
          For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.’”

          Why is any reference to a literal Heaven deleted? Is it because Westcott & Hort were not Bible-believing Christians but instead were a part of the New Enlightenment movement in England in the late 19th century? Possibly.

          And these are just some of the examples of what I submit is an inferior translation in the NASB. I welcome your thoughts. God bless. -B&E


  17. Jesus speaking TODAY to a visionary, says that we are wrong thinking that gay-marriage (abortion also etc.) are sins that affect only individuals, every sin affects the entire world! holylove dot org


    • I looked at the site, why would I pray like the pagans do to a non deity like Mary. She can do nothing. “Ask anything of the Father in My Name”. Many sins do affect others, but this isn’t a universal salvation thing. Mr. White just like others who sin are accountable for themselves… We become responsible when we see a moral sin and do nothing to stand against it. Just like when the Supreme Court declared abortion legal, the church mainly remained silent and will have to answer for that.


    • This is what you pray to:

      (Isaiah 47:1-15) “Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate. {2} Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers. {3} Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man. {4} As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel. {5} Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms. {6} ¶I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke. {7} ¶And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it. {8} Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children: {9} But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments. {10} ¶For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me. {11} ¶Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know. {12} Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail. {13} Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee. {14} Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it. {15} Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, even thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.”


  18. Wrong or right one thing is for certain he will have to go to Jesus to find out because Jesus is not coming to him and for some that would be a clue about who is right or wrong.


  19. This so-called “pastor” is a Satanic Plant. He wouldn’t know JESUS if He stood right in front of his face. REPENT, reprobate, or you will face the Eternal Condemnation of the GOD Almighty you deny through your teeth!


  20. Steve:
    If I could make one comment about this article (which I agree with), it would be that I disagree with the decision to use quotes from the King James throughout. That translation is over 500 years old and many in our country won’t understand everything said, or will have difficulty understanding it. Why can’t we use a contemporary translation that people can understand easily? If Jesus spoke in the language of his day, then why don’t we do the same thing and use modern English? It’s not as if any of his original words were spoken in middle English anyway, so I just don’t understand why people persist in always using the King James when trying to influence people today.

    But it’s proven the King James Bible is the easiest to read.
    Is the King James Bible Harder to Understand?
    “In the last days. . .men shall be HEADY, HIGHMINDED” II Timothy 3:4

    so that renders your point dead. King James Bible it is, also it stems from the Antioch manuscripts, your modern day translations stem from the gnostic tainted manuscrips of Alexandria which removes for example 69000+ words when it comes to the NIV for example, why would you want to remove 69000 words from the Bible also entire verses are totally gone in the NIV. And that’s just one of the gnostic Alexandrian translations.

    Here’s a simple explanation about the two different manuscript streams:

    Also it’s been proven that the gnostic Alexandrian modern translations are using words that are archaic.
    For example these:

    see? So this they’re using words people understand is not true.
    Also heresy seems to run rampant in Alexandrian churches.


  21. Gloriously Blessed Anthony says:

    Accept my apologies for the long rant below but I have to give you a piece of my mind. Also forgive me for any repetition of scriptures but I do so for the purposes of clarification

    “John 14:10> Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.”

    First of all, this ‘Reverend’ has added to the gospel (against Christ’s word in Revelation22: 18-19)
    Secondly, Christ gave the message from His Father and did not add anything. If God says no homosexuality and it clearly says so in Psalms 81:12 and Romans 1:24 – 26), who is this man to change the doctrine of the All Knowing and the Omnipotent God? Jehovah Almighty knows all and in Him there is fullness of light.
    He is the Alpha and Omega and if the ‘reverend’ tends to preach contrary to the word, then there is no God in him for if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand (Mark 3:25).
    Rom 3:4 – Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”

    In conclusion brothers and sisters in our Lord Jesus Christ, do not be deceived nor allow anyone to mock our God. Follow the word in Ephesians 4:14 and Hebrews 6:1-12.


  22. Devious Evil Vile Intolerant Liar says:

    Those Gays will burn forever in eternal Hell for their dastardly sins. They sully the Lord Almighty’s pristine name. They are heathens of the highest rank, Jesus would not accept this he would have a gay old time bashing them into righteousness, along with all those other non-believers like this heinous excuse for a human, he has no right to be called reverend he’s a devil worshiper, We shall stand by the Mighty King or Kings right on judgement day and smugly watch them all get their comeuppance. Like when we hung Saddam for his evil ways an eye for an eye shall be taken and they have stolen the good ones dignity. We shall sing in a chorus of joy as we smell their flesh burn, the justice waffling through the air never will it have smelt sooooo good my brethren of God. The time is almost here I can taste it.


    • The irony of your comment is that you are trying to attack Christianity for precisely what you are doing: PASSING JUDGMENT. You are attempting to paint Christians as cruel, callous and seeking “vengeance” on gay people. All this is doing is highlighting how JUDGMENTAL you are being of Christianity. And calling yourself “devil” is again revealing a desire to pass judgment and be “bigoted” against Christianity. Ultimately, everyone judges. Everyone has moral lines that they feel should be respected and not crossed. The difference is that you want to condemn others for having their lines while maintaining your own. And you are zealous about it to the point that you would take the time to post on a Christian message board.

      So why would that be? I would submit it is because many people resist the idea of a morally perfect God who will one day judge us all for our sins. This idea can be very disconcerting (I should know because it was once very disconcerting to me). So attacking that notion and the faith behind it is a natural human response. But it’s not the right one. Why not get to know God before seeking to attack God. And unlike humans who can be quite unforgiving in our judgments (as your post demonstrates), God is more than willing and eager to forgive us and welcome us in love.

      “For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” – John 3:17.

      Rather than spending time passing judgment on God, why not genuinely get to know Him first?

      “Whosoever shall call upon the name of The Lord shall be saved.” – Romans 10:13.

      How to Get to Heaven


      • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

        No judgement here brother you are entitled to your opinions, I originally posted what I thought was a reasonable question using your own scripture, this you then removed do you care to put it back? I was curious as to see if you would allow this evil nasty comment to stand and you did…I make no judgement about that, it is what it is and people can make up their own minds. I believe in free will so if you desire to act those ways then God has gifted you that, who am I to suppress you? You were the one suppressing my original comment thus denying me this which is fair enough if I crossed your moral line I respect that. I post on these boards because I have unconditional Love for you and I feel opposing opinions when respected makes life fun, there is strength in diversity.

        I just don’t understand how you can call God Omnipotent the Alpha and Omega yet deny that for God to be perfect it also needs imperfection. True perfection has to be imperfect otherwise it’s not the ALL. Hence no reasons for him/her to judge us because we are the ones that allow it to even know its perfection. Believe it or not but God has spoken to me as such and this voice I trust more than any other persons words, it was accompanied by the most profound Love that transformed my character completely around. I don’t need you to believe this or any other man; I look forward to when others have directly felt it too.

        Using my original Bible verse:-
        34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

        God is both the least and the most of these, the sinner and the saint, the day and the night, light and the dark, life and death, straight and gay, God and the Devil. This is my take and my belief. I feel some of the Bible and strongly support the messages, especially the Gospels, the message of love and peace but avoid the literal simplifications of fundamentalism. But that’s just me my friend no need to get upset we feel differently, God knows we will both end up going home in the end. Many paths lead to the same destination.

        I attended bible school when I was a wee lad for many years, it just never fully resonated with me and if my hearts not in it I will not follow. I have always rejected mainstream beliefs and believe in forging my own path through this thick dense jungle of adventure…I’m not perfect but I’m FREE.

        For a world of polarity to exist I guess we need to balance each other out – so I thank you all for being who you are it means the world to me, you beautiful darlings. I would never deny you passage to heaven if you were proved wrong despite the fact your teachings mean you would not afford me the same but that’s great because you are FREE to make that choice.

        May Love be with you ALL regardless of colour, creed, belief, preferences whatever difference. And thanks for taking the time to reply it’s truly appreciated.


        • Sorry your post disappeared. By God’s grace we have not had too many glitches with comments on the site, but today happens to be the second time (in fact the site was down briefly today). I would not have removed your post though.

          As for your second post, it was certainly full of JUDGMENT. I don’t see how this can be denied. Whether one calls it satire or spoof, it was judging Christianity. And for what wrong? For judging. So I was just pointing out the contradiction at play there.

          I disagree with your idea of balance. If someone loves me and makes me feel like the most wonderful man in the world (i.e., my wife), I can recognize that and appreciate it and love her back. I do not have to have her hate me with all of her will and every negative emotion in her being to “understand”, “know” or “truly appreciate” her love. So this notion of balance is not very compelling to me. I don’t have to fight someone to understand being at peace with them. I can live peaceably and never throw a punch in my life. A parent does not have to beat their child senseless for that child to appreciate their loving and tender touch. So your principle seems to not carry the day in the most powerful of human relationships. So why would it apply to God in Heaven?

          Furthermore, in your interpretation of Matthew 25 above, you are comparing those who are poor and hungry to sinners. This is not a valid analogy. Being poor or having a lack of food is not a sin or evil in any way. Jesus’ clear point was that by giving to the least of His brethren, one is symbolically giving to The Lord. This is re-emphasizing Old Testament teaching:

          “He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the Lord; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.” -Proverbs 19:17.

          You are using the passage out of context to make it seem that Jesus was trying to explain that He is both light and dark, good and bad, etc. That is not the context or intent of the text. And the Gospels state the exact opposite of your point:

          “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.” – John 1:1-5.

          In addition to declaring that Jesus is God, it also explains that Jesus is light and there is no darkness in Him. And the darkness of this world cannot even comprehend Him. Jesus said: “Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”

          1 John 1:5 says “This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”

          So it comes down to whether or not you believe God, or your own heart and opinions. If you presume to “know what God will do” outside of His Word, then you are just fashioning an idol – a God of your own creation and personal taste. This is also a sin and violation of the second commandment. We are to humbly submit to God’s Will not our own. But it is our own pride that often gets in the way and wants to exalt ourselves on the throne in our hearts because we “know better” than our Creator. But remember this: “Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” (James 4:6). I hope and pray you will consider believing in God on His terms, not your own.


  23. Xavier V says:

    What the Bible Says–and Doesn’t Say–About Homosexuality by SoulForce

    Many good people build their case against homosexuality almost entirely on the Bible. These folks value Scripture, and are serious about seeking its guidance in their lives. Unfortunately, many of them have never really studied what the Bible does and doesn’t say about homosexuality.

    We gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Christians take the Bible seriously, too. Personally, I’ve spent more than 50 years reading, studying, memorizing, preaching, and teaching from the sacred texts. I earned my master’s and doctoral degrees at a conservative biblical seminary to better equip myself to “rightly divide the word of truth.” I learned Hebrew and Greek to gain a better understanding of the original words of the biblical texts. I studied the lives and times of the biblical authors to help me know what they were saying in their day so I could better apply it to my own. ‘…rightly dividing the word of truth’ 2 Tim 2:15

    Most people have not carefully and prayerfully researched the biblical texts often used to condemn God’s lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender children.

    As you may know, biblical ignorance is an epidemic in the United States. A recent study quoted by Dr. Peter Gomes in The Good Book found that 38 percent of Americans polled were certain the Old Testament was written a few years after Jesus’ death. Ten percent believed Joan of Arc was Noah’s wife. Many even thought the epistles were the wives of the apostles.

    This same kind of biblical ignorance is all too present around the topic of homosexuality. Often people who love and trust God’s Word have never given careful and prayerful attention to what the Bible does or doesn’t say about homosexuality.

    For example, many Christians don’t know that:

    Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.
    The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
    Only six or seven of the Bible’s one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way — and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it’s understood today.

    Most people who are certain they know what the Bible says about homosexuality don’t know where the verses that reference same-sex behavior can be found. They haven’t read them, let alone studied them carefully. They don’t know the original meaning of the words in Hebrew or Greek. And they haven’t tried to understand the historical context in which those words were written. Yet the assumption that the Bible condemns homosexuality is passed down from generation to generation with very little personal study or research. The consequences of this misinformation are disastrous, not only for God’s gay and lesbian children, but for the entire church. ‘Test all things and hold to that which is good’ 1 Thess 5:21

    Over the centuries people who misunderstood or misinterpreted the Bible have done terrible things. The Bible has been misused to defend bloody crusades and tragic inquisitions; to support slavery, apartheid, and segregation; to persecute Jews and other non-Christian people of faith; to support Hitler’s Third Reich and the Holocaust; to oppose medical science; to condemn interracial marriage; to execute women as witches; and to support the Ku Klux Klan. Shakespeare said it this way: “Even the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.”

    We’d like to believe that no person of good will would misuse the Bible to support his or her prejudice. But time and time again it has happened with tragic results.

    In the 16th century, John Selden pointed at two Latin words carved into a marble wall in an ancient church in Rome: “Scrutamini Scripturas,” which means search the Scriptures. “These two words,” Seldon said, “have undone the world.”

    In one way, John Selden was right. Misusing the Bible has drenched the planet in blood and tears.

    But in another way, he was wrong. Most people who misuse the Bible DON’Tsearch the Scriptures. They simply find a text that seems to support their prejudice and then spend the rest of their lives quoting (or misquoting) that text.

    The way certain Bible verses are used to condemn homosexuality and homosexuals is a perfect example of this.

    On September 22, 2000, a 55-year-old man named Ronald E. Gay, angry for being teased about his last name, entered the Back Street Café in Roanoke, Virginia, a gathering place for lesbians and gays just a few miles from Lynchburg. Confident that God’s Word supported his tragic plan of action, Mr. Gay shouted, “I am a Christian soldier, working for my Lord.” Claiming that “Jesus does not want these people in his heaven,” he shot seven innocent gay and lesbian people. One man, Danny Overstreet, died instantly. Others still suffer from their physical and psychological wounds.

    In July 1999, Matthew Williams and his brother, Tyler, murdered a gay couple, Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder, in their home near Sacramento, California. Speaking to his mother from the Shasta County jail, Matthew explained his actions in this way: “I had to obey God’s law rather than man’s law,” he said. “I didn’t want to do this. I felt I was supposed to. I have followed a higher law… I just plan to defend myself from the Scriptures.”

    After Matthew Shepard was killed in 1998, a pastor in North Carolina published an open letter regarding the trial of Aaron McKinney that read: “Gays are under the death penalty. His blood is guilty before God (Lev. 20:13). If a person kills a gay, the gay’s blood is upon the gay and not upon the hands of the person doing the killing. The acts of gays are so abominable to God. His Word is there and we can’t change it.”

    Most of the people I know who say “the Bible condemns homosexuality” would never condone these acts. Most Christians have no idea that the people killing gay and lesbian persons go around quoting those few verses of Scripture as justification.

    But it’s important to hear these stories, because I’m not writing this little pamphlet as a scholarly exercise. It’s a matter of life and death. I’m pleading for the lives of my lesbian sisters and gay brothers who are rejected by their friends and families, fired by their employers, denied their civil rights, refused full membership in their churches, and kill themselves or are killed by others — all on the basis of these six or seven verses.

    Even heroes of the Christian faith have changed their minds about the meaning of various biblical texts.

    It took a blinding light and a voice from heaven to help the apostle Paul change his mind about certain Hebrew texts. A sheet lowered from the sky filled with all kinds of animals helped the apostle Peter gain new insights into Jewish law.

    Jerry Falwell believed the Bible supported segregation in the church until a black shoeshine man asked him, “When will someone like me be allowed to become a member of your congregation?” Through those simple words, the Holy Spirit spoke new truth about the ancient biblical texts to the Rev. Falwell, and in obedience he ended segregation at Thomas Road Baptist Church.

    Even when we believe the Scriptures are “infallible” or “without error,” it’s terribly dangerous to think that our understanding of every biblical text is also without error. We are human. We are fallible. And we can misunderstand and misinterpret these ancient words — with tragic results.

    Almost 1,000 people believed Jim Jones was a faithful interpreter of God’s Word. They died with him in the jungles of Guyana. I studied Jones and leaders of other cults while writing the book and documentary film, Deceived. I found that the only people who were able to break free of the dangerous influence of such Bible-quoting cultic gurus were the ones who took the Bible seriously enough to study the texts themselves and make their own decisions about their meaning. The others “leave their bones in the desert.”

    What if someone asked you, “Is there a chance you could be wrong about the way you’ve interpreted the biblical texts sometimes used to condemn homosexual orientation?” How would you respond? What does it say about you if you answer, “No, I could NOT be wrong”? I am asking you to re-examine these texts — carefully and prayerfully. Lives hang in the balance.

    The Bible is a book about God — not a book about human sexuality.

    The Bible is the story of God’s love for the world and the people of the world. It tells the history of God’s love at work rescuing, renewing, and empowering humankind. It was never intended to be a book about human sexuality. Certainly, you will agree.

    In fact, the Bible accepts sexual practices that we condemn and condemns sexual practices that we accept. Lots of them! Here are a few examples.

    DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
    If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
    If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
    MARK 10:1-12
    Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
    LEVITICUS 18:19
    The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
    MARK 12:18-27
    If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
    DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
    If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

    I’m certain you don’t agree with these teachings from the Bible about sex. And you shouldn’t. The list goes on: The Bible says clearly that sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife. Polygamy (more than one wife) is acceptable, as is a king’s having many concubines. (Solomon, the wisest king of all, had 1,000 concubines.) Slavery and sex with slaves, marriage of girls aged 11-13, and treatment of women as property are all accepted practices in the Scriptures. On the other hand, there are strict prohibitions against interracial marriage, birth control, discussing or even naming a sexual organ, and seeing one’s parents nude.

    Over the centuries the Holy Spirit has taught us that certain Bible verses should not be understood as God’s law for all time periods. Some verses are specific to the culture and time they were written, and are no longer viewed as appropriate, wise, or just.

    Often, the Holy Spirit uses science to teach us why those ancient words no longer apply to our modern times. During the last three decades, for example, organizations representing 1.5 million U.S. health professionals (doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, and educators) have stated definitively that homosexual orientation is as natural as heterosexual orientation, that sexual orientation is determined by a combination of yet unknown pre- and post-natal influences, and that it is dangerous and inappropriate to tell a homosexual that he or she could or should attempt to change his or her sexual orientation. ‘Homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a cure’ by The American Psychological Association


  24. Xavier V says:

    While there are some people now living in heterosexual marriages who once perceived themselves to be gay, there are millions of gay and lesbian persons who have accepted their sexual orientation as a gift from God and live productive and deeply spiritual lives. The evidence from science and from the personal experience of gay and lesbian Christians demands that we at least consider whether the passages cited to condemn homosexual behavior should be reconsidered, just as other Bible verses that speak of certain sexual practices are no longer understood as God’s law for us in this day.

    We miss what these passages say about God when we spend so much time debating what they say about sex.

    If the Bible is the story of God’s love for the world and not a handbook about sex, then that should shape how we read the Scriptures. So as we take a look at the six biblical texts that are used by some people to condemn homosexuality, let’s ask two questions about each of them:

    First, what does the text say about God that we need to hear but might be missing?

    Second, what might the text be saying about homosexuality?

    GENESIS 2:21-25

    Let’s start “In the Beginning…” What does the creation story in Genesis 1-2 say about God?

    I’m so tired of reading signs carried by protesters that say: “It’s about Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.” In fact, the creation story is as important to Adam and Steve as it is Adam and Eve. Gays and non-gays alike need to know and celebrate the truth at the center of this story.

    This creation story is primarily about God, a story written to show the power of God who created the world and everything in it. It teaches us that ultimately God is our Creator, that God shaped us, and that God said, “It’s good.” Isn’t this the heart of the text?

    Now what does the creation story say about homosexuality? Because the text says it is “natural” that a man and a woman come together to create a new life, some people think this means gay or lesbian couples are “unnatural.” They read this interpretation into the text, even though the text is silent about all kinds of relationships that don’t lead to having children:

    couples who are unable to have children
    couples who are too old to have children
    couples who choose not to have children
    people who are single

    Are these relationships (or lack of relationships) “unnatural”? There’s nothing said here that condemns or approves the love that people of the same sex have for each other, including the love I have for my partner, Gary.

    So I believe the creation story says a lot about God’s power and presence in the universe — but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

    GENESIS 19:1-14

    Now let’s consider the second biblical text used by some people to condemn God’s gay children. You remember the ancient story of Sodom. First, what does the story of Sodom in Genesis 19 say about God?

    When Gary and I arrive at a college or university to speak, there are often protesters carrying signs that read, “Mel White, Sodomite.” (Has a nice ring to it.) Actually, I’m not from Sodom. That city was buried beneath the Dead Sea centuries ago. I’m from California — but perhaps that just confirms their suspicions!

    Once again, this story is not primarily about sex. It is primarily about God. Some people say the city of Sodom was destroyed because it was overrun by sexually obsessed homosexuals. In fact, the city of Sodom had been doomed to destruction long before. So what is this passage really about?

    Jesus and five Old Testament prophets all speak of the sins that led to the destruction of Sodom — and not one of them mentions homosexuality. Even Billy Graham doesn’t mention homosexuality when he preaches on Sodom.

    Listen to what Ezekiel 16:48-49 tell us: “This is the sin of Sodom; she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in God’s eyes.

    Today, heterosexuals and homosexuals alike do well to remember that we break God’s heart when we spend all we earn on ourselves, when we forget the poor and hungry, when we refuse to do justice or show mercy, when we leave strangers at the gate.

    I admit, there are a lot of gay folk who are Sodomites (and a lot of straight folk as well). Sodomites are rich and don’t share what they have with the poor. Sodomites have plenty and want more. While millions are hungry, homeless, and sick, Sodomites rush to build bigger homes, buy bigger cars, and own more property — putting their trust in safer stock portfolios and more secure retirement accounts.

    Whatever teaching about sexuality you might get out of this passage, be sure to hear this central, primary truth about God as well. God has called us do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our Creator. Sodom was destroyed because its people didn’t take God seriously about caring for the poor, the hungry, the homeless, or the outcast.

    But what does the story of Sodom say about homosexual orientation as we understand it today? Nothing.

    It was common for soldiers, thieves, and bullies to rape a fallen enemy, asserting their victory by dehumanizing and demeaning the vanquished. This act of raping an enemy is about power and revenge, not about homosexuality or homosexual orientation. And it is still happening.

    In August 1997, Abner Louima, a young black immigrant from Haiti, was assaulted by several police officers after he was arrested in Brooklyn. Officer Charles Schwarz held Louima down in a restroom at the precinct, while Officer Justin Volpe rammed a broken stick into Louima’s rectum. These two men and the three other officers involved in this incident and its cover-up were not gay. This was not a homosexual act. It was about power.

    The sexual act that occurs in the story of Sodom is a gang rape — and homosexuals oppose gang rape as much as anyone. That’s why I believe the story of Sodom says a lot about God’s will for each of us, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

    LEVITICUS 18:22 AND 20:13

    Let’s move on. What do the two verses sometimes cited from Leviticus say about God?

    Leviticus 18:6 reads: “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female. It is an abomination.” A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: “A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed.” On the surface, these words could leave you feeling rather uneasy, especially if you are gay. But just below the surface is the deeper truth about God — and it has nothing to do with sex.

    Leviticus is a holiness code written 3,000 years ago. This code includes many of the outdated sexual laws we mentioned earlier, and a lot more. It also includes prohibitions against round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig. (There goes football!)

    So what’s a holiness code? It’s a list of behaviors that people of faith find offensive in a certain place and time. In this case, the code was written for priests only, and its primary intent was to set the priests of Israel over and against priests of other cultures.

    At the age of 10, I signed a holiness code written by the Women’s Christian Temperance Union that said I would never taste beer, wine, or liquor. I thought signing it would please God and my grandmother. That’s a holiness code. When I was in high school we evangelical Christians had an unwritten holiness code that went like this: “I don’t drink, smoke, or chew, or go with girls who do.” Now I know what you’re thinking. That last part about “girls who do” proved especially easy for me. But the point is that I obeyed this evangelical holiness code because my parents said that breaking these rules didn’t please God, and I knew it didn’t please them.

    We had another evangelical holiness code while I was in high school that prohibited dancing. I was student body president, yet I refused to go to the prom because I had promised not to dance. I did this to please God and my mother — whose mother had made her sign a holiness code that she wouldn’t go to dances either.

    What about this word abomination that comes up in both passages? In Hebrew, “abominations” (TO’EBAH) are behaviors that people in a certain time and place consider tasteless or offensive. To the Jews an abomination was not a law, not something evil like rape or murder forbidden by the Ten Commandments. It was a common behavior by non-Jews that Jews thought was displeasing to God.

    Jesus and Paul both said the holiness code in Leviticus does not pertain to Christian believers. Nevertheless, there are still people who pull the two verses about men sleeping together from this ancient holiness code to say that the Bible seems to condemn homosexuality.

    But wait, before we go any further, let’s ask: What does this text say about God? Even if the old holiness codes no longer apply to us as Christians, it’s important to remember that in every age, people of faith are responsible for setting moral and ethical standards that honor God. But we people of faith must be very careful not to allow our own prejudices to determine what those standards should be.

    Instead of selecting one item from an ancient Jewish holiness code and using it to condemn sexual or gender minorities, let’s talk together about setting sexual standards that please God — standards appropriate for heterosexuals and homosexuals alike, standards based on loving concern, health, and wholeness for ourselves and for others.

    Now what do the Leviticus passages say about homosexuality?

    I’m convinced those passages say nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today. Here’s why. Consider this single Bible passage that was used for centuries to condemn masturbation:

    “He spilled his seed on the ground… And the thing which Onan did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also” (Genesis 38:9-10).

    For Jewish writers of Scripture, a man sleeping with another man was an abomination. But it was also an abomination (and one worthy of death) to masturbate or even to interrupt coitus (to halt sex with your spouse before ejaculation as an act of birth control). Why were these sexual practices considered abominations by Scripture writers in these ancient times?

    Because the Hebrew pre-scientific understanding was that the male semen contained the whole of life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation, it was assumed that the man’s sperm contained the whole child and that the woman provided only the incubating space. Therefore, the spilling of semen without possibility of having a child was considered murder.

    The Jews were a small tribe struggling to populate a country. They were outnumbered by their enemy. You can see why these ancient people felt it was an abomination to risk “wasting” even a single child. But the passage says nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.


  25. Love Of Vast Expanse says:

    First of all apologies this post is very long I will reply to your message and also have some questions of the page you directed me to.

    Again apologies for thinking you had deleted it I was surprised given the fact you seem to have an open policy for freedom of speech here and am glad this was the case.

    It’s definitely tongue in cheek although from my historical knowledge of people such as King David, Moses etc Christianity does have a dark undertone. I make no judgement only an observation, they may have believed they slaughtered for good and only they know that.

    I believe in reincarnation and have experienced passed life regression myself and also between lives (what you would term heaven), I believe we live a multitude of lives that bring depth and meaning to our current incarnations. So within that context no it’s not something you have to experience here now to appreciate but if you had her Love for eternity it would cease to be. Is it not true that a hot bath is much nicer on a cold winters day than when it’s a hot summers? Do you not appreciate the seasons? Does a torch have the same effect in the day as night? To me if you spend a lifetime without your wife when you reunite it will be allot more amazing than if you had never parted. Do they not say make up sex is the best? Would you not Love world peace right now? Are you telling me it wouldn’t mean more to you now when you have lived in a world of perpetual war than it would if you had been born into a world of peace? Do kids today appreciate the struggles our grandparents went through during the world wars? Many have not even heard of the holocaust these days. Do you not think you will extremely appreciate more when you are reunited with God than if you hadn’t come here in the first place? For me the lower you sink the higher you can soar. The deeper the pain the more heightened the pleasure.

    I refer you to the specific part ‘or in prison, and came unto thee?’ this would imply they committed a bad enough sin to be worthy of jail, I don’t believe I have misinterpreted it he even puts it next to ‘Or when saw we thee sick’, so yes I would imply that was what he was getting at.

    So are you implying that God is not the Alpha and Omega? Not the beginning AND the end? Because you can’t have it both ways either he is everything or he a separate being from us. If he created us how is that even possible, if I paint a picture is it not my creation? How could a God of pure Light create Darkness yet not be part of it? Like making a bad song and blaming the song itself. Are you saying he made a mistake when creating us and our dark natures? If I created a nuclear bomb and a person willing to use it, is that not my doing?

    If God can speak to the prophets and they were human, why not to me? It’s impossible for me to know better than the God I have found but that is not the one of your scriptures. To me it is the ALL, everything, every one thing needing the other. A brain cell is more important than a skin cell but they are all part of the same body. If there is just one of us here how can we be better than anyone else? Am I better than my body?

    And I pray that you will find your nirvana my friend in heaven with the God of your creation that of the Christian Bible. You prayer is appreciated and I am enjoying this dialogue.

    My questions on the page you sent me to (How to get to heaven)

    ‘You should never steal any item’

    So if your own child lay starving on the floor because you were too poor to buy food and you saw your next door neighbour throwing loads away, but refusing to give it you, you would let your child die over taking it from the bin right? You would see good food rot and your child waste away.

    ‘You should never put something over your love of God’

    So if God came to you and said to prove your Love for me suffocate your wife would you do this? Or to kill all the first born’s in your town? Would you literally do anything…kill a billion in his name?

    ‘Oh and also never disobey your parents – not even once in your entire life’

    What if your parents told you steal which commandment would you uphold? You would still technically have to break one. Doesn’t seem very fair or just.

    ‘The Bible says God has written it on our hearts, so everyone born knows when they have done wrong’.

    What about eating pork it’s described as being wrong in some religious texts but to many others it’s not wrong? Why do they not get these heart pangs when doing it. What about a killer born with no empathy and moral sense?

    “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” (James 2:10). God sees one sin as the same being guilty of all of them. That’s how good He is and how high His standard is. No sinner is coming to Heaven, no matter how big or small their sin list is. And even our good deeds, like holding doors open, recycling or giving money to the homeless can’t help us:
    If that’s the case why not sin as much as we like as it’s impossible to uphold, and just repent on our death bed, God will see us the same so where is the incentive to bother trying not to sin at all? If saying no to your dad you don’t want that drink is the same as executing 6 million Jews why not just ignore it?
    “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;” (Isaiah 64:6). Thinking nice gestures will get you to Heaven is like thinking a murderer could get let off for killing someone in cold blood by telling the judge he helps his neighbor carry her groceries home. That does not change the fact a crime took place! And God as a just Judge is not going to let any criminal off the hook. So this may seem grim but stay tuned…there’s good news

    So if the only sin I performed in my life was to say no to a drink my dad told me to have but I created a cure for cancer , aids and solved world hunger and brought the world peace the sin would make those things meaningless. Again it doesn’t seem these teachings are encouraging us to do good here, now. Like God wants us to live in misery and at war with each other.

    any parents will happily say they’d die for their kids but how many parents would let their kids die for you? God did just that out of love for you. To bring us back as His children to be at peace with Him.

    If God knew Jesus was eternal and going to live in heaven with him forever, he did not really sacrifice his son’s life as he didn’t really die and never was going to. In fact it was on earth when he was living they were separated and when he died they were reunited so it seems he just wanted him back quicker and claimed it was for our sins he did it.

    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9)

    And again he has the powers of resurrection this is not what I call death. If I lost my son but he could just make himself re-appear back alive would I even feel loss at all? No because it was an illusion and I knew the magic behind it. Sacrifice is in believing you are losing something. Not temporarily lending something unbreakable and claiming it was the greatest act ever.

    It allows God to give you a new spirit, that can feel His presence and seek to worship Him. And that’s what being “Born Again” and “Saved” means. It’s the simple Gospel.

    An omnipotent God that could create anything needs our worship? Why? couldn’t he just get that without us? Perfection (Having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be) it needs nothing outside of its self because it’s perfect; if it needed us to be saved it could not be perfect because it would be incomplete. Either it needs nothing and is perfect or it’s imperfect.

    If that seems easy, that’s precisely why the Bible calls it a gift! When is the last time you had to work for a gift? Your answer should be never because if you did, then it wasn’t a gift! God’s gift to us is salvation by our faith and not by actions. So take the gift and enjoy it forever.

    This just seems like a free ticket not to bother trying to do good or change the world whilst we are here because we don’t get no thanks or any punishment. It seems like something those powerful elites who are running the show would want people to think so they could put them in a state of apathy and maintain their status quo. Clever manipulation technique in my opinion it certainly worked.

    If there’s one thing the Bible says about Heaven is that it’s a great place! And I hope to see you all there!

    What if you are wrong and you have been deceived, putting all your eggs in the same basket and it was another religion that was right? Would you gladly accept the fate you ask those to accept who don’t believe in Jesus as the saviour? Eternal damnation?

    I see these issues as a fundamental barrier in me accepting what you say and these are just the basics. I am an incessant questioner…my mind never stops; perhaps I was not built for this kind of faith.

    Much Love to you once again I do appreciate you clearing this up if you have the time.


    • Well again, you can call your post “tongue in cheek” but at the end of the day you were PASSING JUDGMENT. But at the same time you are condemning Christianity for that very thing. You try to portray yourself as someone who has no judgment and just wants everyone to believe what they choose but here you are challenging and judging Christianity. And that is your right, but again, I just want to clearly point out the contradiction.

      1) Need for balance – I am not going to discuss these examples anymore because you have not addressed the 3 clear examples of where balance is clearly not needed or beneficial in any way. And those are in our closest of relationships. So your principle of balance fails.

      2) God being good and evil – When God says He is “Beginning and End” that is referring to time, not human behavior. It is not a statement that God is both good and evil. As I quoted from Scripture before, there is no darkness in God. There is evil in this world because we humans, out of our volition have chosen to sin. It was by the sin of ONE MAN, that death entered this world. Not by God’s creation. This would be akin to holding parent accountable for everything their children do until their 99 years old. Clearly at a certain age, a person is responsible for their own actions and choices, and not their parents. We have chosen to disobey our Father repeatedly and thus suffer for it.

      3) Reincarnation – Many people claim to have experienced past life regression, trips to Heaven, Hell, etc. That does not make it true. Your eyes can deceive you. Your heart can deceive you. Your belief system of reincarnation presumes that we are “evolving” and getting morally better with each “new life.” Yet where is the evidence of this? People are more depraved and evil than ever before. And where are all of the evolved, advanced “special people”?? Shouldn’t we have millions of people on Earth now who are so different and set apart because of all of their reincarnation training??? Yet we never see them. Reincarnation also relies on JUDGMENT as well because if you live a “bad life” you come back as a cockroach or something “inferior.” But yet you say you do not judge anyone. Hmmm….

      4) 10 Commandments – As stated on the salvation page, the 10 commandments do not get you to Heaven. They reflect God’s standard of moral perfection. You are trying to show exceptions, but there can be no exception to absolute morality. If you say “I have never stolen anything in my life!” there are only 2 possible realities: either you have or you haven’t. Any justifications or excuses, while seemingly noble, don’t change the fact that you are a thief. That is the point. Furthermore, you left out the question from the paragraph: How are YOU doing following those commandments? Have YOU stolen before? Have YOU lied? Have YOU disobeyed your parents? Have YOU put other things before love of God? How many times have you sinned in the past month? Or 10 years? See, when you actually examine your “rap sheet”, hypothetical “exceptions” to the commandments hold even less water.

      5) Eating pork/Serial killers – Eating pork is not something in the conscience. It was in the written Levitical law that was for the ancient nation of Israel. And certainly, you will find many Jewish people today who would have serious pangs if you offered them pork and will never touch it. As for a killer – I can’t think of any example of someone in court for murder telling the judge “your honor, I was never taught morality. No one trained me in it. So I just didn’t know that murdering somebody was wrong.” The judge would say “well you should have known” thus underscoring a moral imperative. We all have morals. It’s whether we choose to adhere to them or not is the question. Obviously if someone is mentally disabled that’s a different story but not really relevant.

      “If that’s the case why not sin as much as we like as it’s impossible to uphold, and just repent on our death bed, God will see us the same so where is the incentive to bother trying not to sin at all? If saying no to your dad you don’t want that drink is the same as executing 6 million Jews why not just ignore it?
      “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;” (Isaiah 64:6). Thinking nice gestures will get you to Heaven is like thinking a murderer could get let off for killing someone in cold blood by telling the judge he helps his neighbor carry her groceries home. That does not change the fact a crime took place! And God as a just Judge is not going to let any criminal off the hook. So this may seem grim but stay tuned…there’s good news

      So if the only sin I performed in my life was to say no to a drink my dad told me to have but I created a cure for cancer , aids and solved world hunger and brought the world peace the sin would make those things meaningless. Again it doesn’t seem these teachings are encouraging us to do good here, now. Like God wants us to live in misery and at war with each other.

      Why not cheat on your wife flagrantly for your entire 50 years of marriage then on your death bed say “honey, you are the only woman for me.”?? Because it’s not true. And she would never believe you. So such a plan as you propose reeks of insincerity and planned fraud, pretty much the opposite of humble repentance and genuine faith. And your own question underscores the bible’s point: we all have a sinful nature. The bottom line is you have NOT committed “just one sin.” You have to use hypotheticals because you know in your own heart you have committed much more than one sin. So rather than shine the light on your own darkness, you want to try to put God on trial and judge The Creator who gives you the breath you’re breathing.

      As Christians we do not obey God because we are trying to get something or “earn” our way to Heaven. We have been given Heaven for FREE. We serve God out of LOVE. This is the essence of Christianity. God did not save us because I am so wonderful and such a great guy. He saved me because I acknowledged that I am wretched, filthy sinner who has broken God’s clear commands willfully thousands of times. And I knew at that time what I was doing was wrong. But I was willing to confess this to God and know that I deserve Hell and the Lake of fire. But I believe in Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and He being the Son of God and Messiah. And that is why I am saved. So rather than serve God out of fear or “working my way up”, a Christian does good because we love The Lord. It’s like a marriage. If you are faithful to your spouse only because you are scared of being caught or because you hope they will reward you – that is not real love. That’s a transaction. Marriage is about loving the person and being faithful NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE DOING. It’s committing to treat that person with all the love in your being in any circumstance, even when they are disrespecting you or mistreating you. That is the love a parent has for their child. That is the love a husband should have for his wife. And that is the love God has for us to an extent you cannot imagine. I follow Jesus commands out of that love.

      “If God knew Jesus was eternal and going to live in heaven with him forever, he did not really sacrifice his son’s life as he didn’t really die and never was going to. In fact it was on earth when he was living they were separated and when he died they were reunited so it seems he just wanted him back quicker and claimed it was for our sins he did it. “

      Ha ha. I am going to be presumptuous here and take a guess that you are not a parent. If you think physically punishing your own child is easy, think again. Jesus was fully God and fully man. He hungered. He got thirsty and tired and He certainly felt pain. He suffered the pains of torture, abuse, humiliation, shame and ultimately death. From people who deserved Hell. If you think this would be easy for a parent to allow, buckle up. Because kids will be a doozy. And notice now you, who claim to judge no one, are not only judging God, but calling Him a liar in your accusations. Again, I am showing the blatant hypocrisy from your original statement. Rather than being this free flowing, balanced, evolved person who judges no one, you are angry with God and trying to take Him to task. This is all pride.

      “This just seems like a free ticket not to bother trying to do good or change the world whilst we are here because we don’t get no thanks or any punishment. It seems like something those powerful elites who are running the show would want people to think so they could put them in a state of apathy and maintain their status quo. Clever manipulation technique in my opinion it certainly worked.”

      See again, for you it’s all about quid pro quo. Doing things for reward or to avoid punishment. That is not real love. A born again Christian receives a new spirit- from God, that seeks to please Him. A Christian is not going to just sit back and have no concern for the world. A real Christian will always have compassion on the world, specifically the lost and unsaved who are destined for eternal damnation. You just assume that people will be apathetic without a “prize” at the end. That may be you, but I don’t think it’s fair to JUDGE the entire human race that way.

      “What if you are wrong and you have been deceived, putting all your eggs in the same basket and it was another religion that was right? Would you gladly accept the fate you ask those to accept who don’t believe in Jesus as the saviour? Eternal damnation?

      I see these issues as a fundamental barrier in me accepting what you say and these are just the basics. I am an incessant questioner…my mind never stops; perhaps I was not built for this kind of faith.”

      Yes, I would absolutely accept my fate if I am wrong about Christianity. I am not going to bow to any other god of any other religion.

      As for your “barrier” to believe I don’t really think it’s from questioning. questions are good. But are you being sincere in seeking an answer? I don’t think so. It sounds to me like you are bringing lots of prejudice (and I mean that in the original sense of the word) to the table. You have formulated a great deal of hostile ideas to the God of The Bible before taking the time to really know Him. And again, this is pride, the source of much sin in the world and the first sin ever committed. And as long as you hold on to this pride, and try to mask it with statements like “no judgment” and “love for all” you will be at odds with The Lord. You do judge. You don’t love God or the Bible. And you are a sinner, despite your cycles of reincarnation and visiting Heaven. You are down here in the muck with the rest of us. The only difference is God extends His hand to pull you out and you stubbornly reject it, lest the light of His righteousness shine on you. So again, I just urge humility. I could be wrong, but maybe you’re wrong and I’m right. What does that mean for you? Eternity in the Lake of Fire. And I am putting my faith in a Bible that has been here for 3,500 years and is still standing strong. You are trusting in your heart and feelings, even though we have already proven your heart, like mine, is sinful and deceitful.

      ” For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” – John 3:16-20.


      • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

        Well Christians are not the most well known for their sense of humour, I’ve never seen a good comedian that’s a Christian (oops there I go again making judgement’s, who do I think I am God!?) Now let’s be straight for a debate to take place people have to make judgement’s based around their view of the world…this is just a simple fact. You are doing it too but you don’t see me mentioning it every five minutes…by you judging me judging you, you are being judgmental as well but such is life. If you are heading to Southampton and you wish to get to Newcastle and I point out you are heading in the wrong direction this not a judgement, merely an observation on what is so.

        From my point of view with karma you get back what you put in, so if you desire to create peace act in a peaceful way, if you wish for Unconditional Love show it to others, however if you want war go and fight someone…this is just the basic law of cause and effect.

        Well I sure see many more people who don’t have harmonious relationships with their closest ones than do and there are Christians who are among those people, you do not speak for all friend only you.

        How about the wonderful examples the kind gentleman above used in illustrating his point:-

        DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
        If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
        DEUTERONOMY 22:22
        If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
        MARK 10:1-12
        Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
        LEVITICUS 18:19
        The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
        MARK 12:18-27
        If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
        DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
        If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

        Tell me have you fulfilled your side of the bargain and dished the punishments to those around you who have done these things? (they are not all from Leviticus) I wouldn’t imagine so as you would be a mass murderer committing genocide right now. If these words cannot be trusted why should we take any of it as gospel? It’s all or nothing when you follow Bible literally. You can’t pick and choose its either Gods word or mans. So do you condone these things? Would you have supported you’re wife having sex with your brothers if you had died childless? Please do tell I’m intrigued.

        I think if you have made the choice yourself to bring that child into the world and the child has no choice in this yes you always will bear a responsibility for their actions because without you there would be no them. Don’t have the child in the 1st place if you are not prepared for this eventuality.

        I believe we are currently going through a planetary shift in consciousness the movement from one age to the next. From a planet where we view ourselves as separate to a single planetary being…one world order. If you were to see the winter for the first time you could be deceived into thinking all was dying and lost but then comes spring the start of new life once again. At the shift of on an age much chaos is needed for strong winds create deep roots. How could you truly test yourself as an advance soul if all was pure bliss already? It takes courage to see past the gossamer façade of reality and see a deeper profound purpose. Like Job the belief in God’s Love despite what was going on around him allowed him to express his faith in a way that could not be displayed when he had it all. Can you see the goodness in all? And there are many spiritually advanced individuals here but I’m sure you would deem them blasphemous because they don’t follow just one religious belief. And karma is not about judgement it’s something you choose to experience because it allows you to understand the consequences of your actions and grow from that. You would have a mass murderer go to heaven for repenting but send a child from the 3rd world who had never heard of Jesus go to Hell now that to me is rough justice. But again that’s my opinion I don’t see you as wrong but do believe you will live out another life as a victim of these ideas so you can see life is not as black and white as the bible makes out.

        Ok so you are saying that God would allow his child to starve in this situation because he is so morally perfect and does not break the 10 commandments himself and that’s why I just don’t feel this Christian God of yours he’s doesn’t sound like a deity I would enjoy being around. I just don’t understand why so many through no choice of their own should face so much greater difficulty in achieving salvation, any one not born into a Christian country for example. What is it Gods lottery of luck?

        So you mean a Jews rights are different to mine? Thanks for illustrating the exact point I was making we have different rights and wrongs. I find it funny how you imagine God to be like a human judge in a courtroom (much like my view either amuses or shocks you). I’m sure if you were raped by your father, beaten into submission by all the people you loved when growing up you may just see things slightly different to some middle class Christian who had a good upbringing, again Gods lottery of luck eh? What about American soldiers who are Christians the last I saw they killed half a million civilians in Iraq alone? Do they not know right from wrong? I’m sure allot of Christians have voted and so been complicit in these deaths to. Have you voted? And from my observations there are many who are mentally disabled for one reason or another so it is completely relevant.

        If she had stayed around that long she would probably believe it as she would have proved to be very gullible to stay with you in the 1st place and I can’t say I believe in her son and all is just forgiven, can I? Besides I don’t believe in sin, again you are measuring me by your beliefs, I believe in free will and I don’t think the two are compatible. I was just trying to use examples that related to the Bible and again some may never commit a big sin at all, just many small ones. Eternal hell for a few small sins is hardly a fair exchange in my eyes. What about a monk who had lived in a monastery their whole life? You would tar them with the same brush as Stalin. You put your own sins in the same bracket as Hitler, Mussolini, Bin Laden etc going by these standards, I can see why you don’t have much self-Love and need a Christian God as a way to absolve that. Again just an observation (of which I may be totally wrong) no judgement attached.
        It’s not free if you have to do something for it friend it’s a contradiction. And so you do not do it from Love but to get to Heaven, that’s the name of the game here. Again it doesn’t sound like you have much self-worth; much Love for yourself and this is what you get from God, again you getting something out of the deal an exchange if you like. When you have unconditional Love you Love everyone the same my parents, my friends, girlfriend, strangers, so called enemies and yes even myself. That is truly Loving someone without conditions it doesn’t matter who they are, the very nature of a wedding is a binding contract between two people, an exchange and that to me contradicts Unconditional Love. If you truly Loved someone then you would also allow them to leave if they wanted to, not make them stay because you signed a piece of paper. But again these are just my thoughts on the matter I do not need a partner to sign anything or make any promise because she is Free to do as she wishes. That does not mean I would stay in an abusive relationship like you would but I’d still Love them, together that way or not.

        Yes you are right I do not have children and with the planet so overpopulated do not feel it a fair thing to do for a child, Your children have been born into debt slavery and destined to suffer that’s not something I would wish upon anyone but that’s your choice. You talk of God as if it has human emotions and feelings; it’s a perfect complete being…not quite the same as a human seeing their child suffer. Again I do not believe in your Christian God anyway so I cannot judge it or be angry with it, just make hypothetical observations on its laws. When did I claim I was any of those things?…now you are truly being presumptuous. Did I not say I’m not perfect but I’m free? I’m a human an evolved ape not a masterful wise spirit just yet. As Confucius said ‘Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance.’ Yet you believe that you are right in your beliefs for sure and all others wrong. Me I’m picking it up as I go along…a blind idiot stumbling in the dark but when I find my way home it will be through my own merit not salvation for uttering a few words, not that’s it’s wrong to do that, it’s just not my path.

        Well there are allot of people in the world that don’t see the world like you, try bringing up a child to tell them they can do as they like and there will be no consequences they would run amok. Like telling a child take any drugs you want because nothing bad will happen. Tell people there are no consequences in life if they just repent at the end they can be saved and they will run amok. It doesn’t matter how good a Christian you are if Hitler repented on his death bed according to your book he is saved. You said yourself about the state of the world, many more are apathetic than compassionate, why do we allow millions of people to starve every year but throw away food ourselves, if we are compassionate as a whole? It just simply wouldn’t happen, if enough people cared it would change overnight but they don’t…and that’s partly in my opinion down to these teachings. Many who hear about a Christian God think sod it I don’t want to go to heaven if that’s the way he is I’ll do as I please. It is human nature to do the opposite of what someone is making them do it’s called reverse psychology. I do not judge only observe, I’m not going to punish you either way.

        Well if I prove to be right we will have a good giggle about this when you do decide to join the rest of us in the spirit world and not create an eternal Hell for yourself. My God would never expect anyone to bow down to him ,in fact he finds this amusing, She will accept you with a loving embrace even though you rejected her because she is Pure Love. For me this means not a God with the most servants but the one who serves the most.

        Well only God can tell me if I’m sincere in my asking and she has communicated to me that I am and this is good for me. The problem is with so many different religions and spiritual texts I will not refer to a one and only God of any religion, I go by what resonates with me as a character and honestly I see more humility from the Muslim faith than Christians, I actually felt more connection with Muhammad than Moses or David, but further still the Buddha was even more to my taste, but to me any path to God which is exclusive to any one group of people will not have my complete support. I don’t believe in the monopolisation of God…I would never exclude anyone else from heaven and neither would the God that I have found. All are welcome; no one shall be denied their birth right as a seed of God. And yes I am here with you and I see this muck as a profound gift because ‘I see God in the darkest of places for when you are no longer afraid of the dark, you are no longer afraid of the Light for they are ONE. If you are right I too will accept my fate and it will be what I deserve but most importantly what I have chosen by being free to make this choice, it’s truly win, win all round. I am free and you get to be with the Christian God.

        A verse that explains my God:-


        You are the epitome of exquisitely elegant beauty yet majestically magnanimous…a multi-faceted treasure of infinite worth. Your Light so bright it shines even in the darkest of nights, your LOVE so intense it can be felt from the farthest reaches of existence. I used to ask myself ‘what did I do to deserve you?’, then I realised I was you…that we were ONE. The knowing of which changes everything, just like its wonder came to me…I convey it to you through these symbols we call words. For you are a part of this amazing presence yourself. It is within us ALL, to deny this, is to deny your TRUE identity. It is where your TRUE power resides, where you will find your absolution. You are now being given a chance to reconnect with this POWER, all I ask is you give thought to this, and if it resonates with you, seek to get in touch with this higher aspect of your being. You may just come to realise it was this, that you were searching for your WHOLE life. Beings that have desperately desired to hold onto their grip of power over you, have tried very successfully to keep this from you. Because once you realise this TRUTH you cannot be controlled by them anymore. You will be FREEdom itself.

        I’m sure you will take from it the same as I do from your verses, but I feel I can reach others outside of strict religious doctrine and bring them the unconditional Love and Freedom that has so kindly been bestowed on me. I’m currently working on a book that I believe will touch the hearts of its readers. Like you, when you have been touched by God you feel it your duty to bring this to others and I respect you deeply for that, we share something amazing and for that I feel a bond with you, despite our polarity of beliefs. It’s great chatting with you friend, keep up the noble work of serving in your own unique way…I know you have good intentions I feel it in you and that I trust. Please accept all I say above is no judgement on you, your God or anyone- only my own personal view, which I’m not saying is right. Once again great thanks for your valuable time.

        I will leave you with a quote from the Bible that does resonate with me and my beliefs and is relevant to the message I am getting at:-

        John 10:33-34 (King James Version)

        33 The Jews answered him, saying , For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said , Ye are gods?


  26. Xavier V says:

    We’ve talked about the passages in the Hebrew Scriptures that are used (or misused) by some people to condemn sexual minorities. Now let’s look at three verses from the letters of the apostle Paul in the Christian Scriptures that are used the same way. Remember: First, we’ll ask what the text says about God; second, we’ll consider what it may or may not say about sexual orientation.

    ROMANS 1:26-27

    What does Romans 1:26-27 say about God?

    For our discussion, this is the most controversial biblical passage of them all. In Romans 1:26-27 the apostle Paul describes non-Jewish women who exchange “natural use for unnatural” and non-Jewish men who “leave the natural use of women, working shame with each other.”

    This verse appears to be clear: Paul sees women having sex with women and men having sex with men, and he condemns that practice. But let’s go back 2,000 years and try to understand why.

    Paul is writing this letter to Rome after his missionary tour of the Mediterranean. On his journey Paul had seen great temples built to honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other fertility gods and goddesses of sex and passion instead of the one true God the apostle honors. Apparently, these priests and priestesses engaged in some odd sexual behaviors — including castrating themselves, carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young temple prostitutes (male and female) — all to honor the gods of sex and pleasure.

    The Bible is clear that sexuality is a gift from God. Our Creator celebrates our passion. But the Bible is also clear that when passion gets control of our lives, we’re in deep trouble.

    When we live for pleasure, when we forget that we are God’s children and that God has great dreams for our lives, we may end up serving the false gods of sex and passion, just as they did in Paul’s time. In our obsession with pleasure, we may even walk away from the God who created us — and in the process we may cause God to abandon all the great dreams God has for our lives.

    Did these priests and priestesses get into these behaviors because they were lesbian or gay? I don’t think so. Did God abandon them because they were practicing homosexuals? No. Read the text again.

    In our Soulforce video, There’s a Wideness in God’s Mercy, the Rev. Dr. Louis B. Smedes, a distinguished Christian author and ethicist, describes exactly how the Bible says these promiscuous priests and priestesses got into this mess. Once again it has nothing to do with homosexuality:

    SMEDES: “The people Paul had in mind refused to acknowledge and worship God, and for this reason were abandoned by God. And being abandoned by God, they sank into sexual depravity.”

    SMEDES: “The homosexuals I know have not rejected God at all; they love God and they thank God for his grace and his gifts. How, then, could they have been abandoned to homosexuality as a punishment for refusing to acknowledge God?”

    SMEDES: “Nor have the homosexuals that I know given up heterosexual passions for homosexual lusts. They have been homosexual from the moment of their earliest sexual stirrings. They did not change from one orientation to another; they just discovered that they were homosexual. It would be unnatural for most homosexuals to have heterosexual sex.”

    SMEDES: “And the homosexual people I know do not lust after each other any more than heterosexual people do… their love for one another is likely to be just as spiritual and personal as any heterosexual love can be.”

    Thank you, Dr. Smedes. (To get a copy of the video featuring Dr. Smedes, There’s a Wideness in God’s Mercy, visit

    Getting to know a lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender person of faith will help you realize that it is unreasonable (and unjust) to compare our love for each other to the rituals of the priests and priestesses who pranced around the statues of Aphrodite and Diana. Once again, I feel certain this passage says a lot about God, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it.

    You’ll also note that Romans 2 begins with “Therefore, [referring to Romans 1], you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself…” Even after he describes the disturbing practices he has seen, Paul warns us that judging others is God’s business, not ours.


    Now what do the writings of Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 say, first, about God, and then about homosexuality? These are the last two places in the Bible that seem to refer to same-sex behavior. We can combine them because they are so similar.

    Paul is exasperated. The Christians in Ephesus and Corinth are fighting among themselves. (Sound familiar?) In Corinth they’re even suing one another in secular courts. Paul shouts across the distance, “You are breaking God’s heart by the way you are treating one another.”

    Like any good writer, Paul anticipates their first question: “Well, how are we supposed to treat one another?” Paul answers, “You know very well how to treat one another from the Jewish law written on tablets of stone.”

    The Jewish law was created by God to help regulate human behavior. To remind the churches in Corinth and Ephesus how God wants us to treat one another, Paul recites examples from the Jewish law first. Don’t kill one another. Don’t sleep with a person who is married to someone else. Don’t lie or cheat or steal. The list goes on to include admonitions against fornication, idolatry, whoremongering, perjury, drunkenness, revelry, and extortion. He also includes “malokois” and “arsenokoitai.”

    Here’s where the confusion begins. What’s a malokois? What’s an arsenokoitai? Actually, those two Greek words have confused scholars to this very day. We’ll say more about them later, when we ask what the texts say about sex. But first let’s see what the texts say about God.

    After quoting from the Jewish law, Paul reminds the Christians in Corinth that they are under a new law: the law of Jesus, a law of love that requires us to do more than just avoid murder, adultery, lying, cheating, and stealing. Paul tells them what God wants is not strict adherence to a list of laws, but a pure heart, a good conscience, and a faith that isn’t phony.

    That’s the lesson we all need to learn from these texts. God doesn’t want us squabbling over who is “in” and who is “out.” God wants us to love one another. It’s God’s task to judge us. It is NOT our task to judge one another.

    So what do these two texts say about homosexuality? Are gays and lesbians on that list of sinners in the Jewish law that Paul quotes to make an entirely different point?

    Greek scholars say that in first century the Greek word malaokois probably meant “effeminate call boys.” The New Revised Standard Version says “male prostitutes.”

    As for arsenokoitai, Greek scholars don’t know exactly what it means — and the fact that we don’t know is a big part of this tragic debate. Some scholars believe Paul was coining a name to refer to the customers of “the effeminate call boys.” We might call them “dirty old men.” Others translate the word as “sodomites,” but never explain what that means.

    In 1958, for the first time in history, a person translating that mysterious Greek word into English decided it meant homosexuals, even though there is, in fact, no such word in Greek or Hebrew. But that translator made the decision for all of us that placed the word homosexual in the English-language Bible for the very first time.

    In the past, people used Paul’s writings to support slavery, segregation, and apartheid. People still use Paul’s writings to oppress women and limit their role in the home, in church, and in society.

    Now we have to ask ourselves, “Is it happening again?” Is a word in Greek that has no clear definition being used to reflect society’s prejudice and condemn God’s gay children?

    We all need to look more closely at that mysterious Greek word arsenokoitai in its original context. I find most convincing the argument from history that Paul is condemning the married men who hired hairless young boys (malakois) for sexual pleasure just as they hired smooth-skinned young girls for that purpose.

    Responsible homosexuals would join Paul in condemning anyone who uses children for sex, just as we would join anyone else in condemning the threatened gang rape in Sodom or the behavior of the sex-crazed priests and priestesses in Rome. So, once again, I am convinced that this passage says a lot about God, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

    The biblical authors are silent about homosexual orientation as we know it today. They neither approve it nor condemn it.

    We’ve looked closely at the six biblical texts used by some people to condemn homosexuality. But we must also remember that Jesus, the Jewish prophets, and even Paul never even comment on the responsible love a gay man or lesbian feels for another.

    The Bible is completely silent on the issue of homosexual orientation. And no wonder. Homosexual orientation wasn’t even known until the 19th century.

    The discovery that some of us are created and/or shaped in our earliest infancy toward same-gender attraction was made in the last 150 years. Biblical authors knew nothing about sexual orientation. Old Testament authors and Paul assumed all people were created heterosexual, just as they believed the earth was flat, that there were heavens above and hell below, and that the sun moved up and down.

    In 1864, almost 3,000 years after Moses and at least 18 centuries after the apostle Paul, the German social scientist Karl Heinrich Ulrichs was the first to declare that homosexuals were a distinct class of individuals. It was a big moment for all sexual minorities. It’s our Columbus discovering the New World. It’s our Madame Curie discovering radium used for Xrays. It’s our Neil Armstrong walking on the moon. It may seem like one small step for the rest of you, but it’s a giant leap for us.

    Ulrichs assured the world of what we who are homosexual already know in our hearts. We aren’t just heterosexuals choosing to perform same-sex behaviors. We are a whole class of people whose drive to same-sex intimacy is at the very core of our being from the very beginning of our lives.

    Although the word homosexual was not used for the first time until later in the 19th century, Ulrichs recognized that homosexuals had been around from the beginning of recorded time, that we were “innately different from heterosexuals,” and that our desire for same-sex intimacy and affiliation is intrinsic, natural, inborn and/or shaped in earliest infancy. According to Dr. Ulrichs, what may have looked “unnatural” to Moses and Paul was in fact “natural” to homosexuals.

    So this is my sixth premise. The Biblical authors knew nothing of homosexual orientation as we understand it, and therefore said nothing to condemn or approve it.

    The authors of the Bible are authorities in matters of faith. They can be trusted when they talk about God. But they should not be considered the final authorities on sexual orientation any more than they are the final authorities on space travel, gravity, or the Internet.

    Since the writers of Scripture are not the final authorities on human sexuality, since they didn’t even know about sexual orientation as we understand it today, since Jesus and the Jewish prophets were silent about any kind of same-sex behavior, I am persuaded that the Bible has nothing in it to approve or condemn homosexual orientation as we understand it.

    Although the prophets, Jesus, and other biblical authors say nothing about homosexual orientation as we understand it today, they are clear about one thing: As we search for truth, we are to “love one another.”

    We may not be able to use the Bible as our final authority on sexual orientation. But as we search for the truth, we can and should use the Bible as our final authority on how we should treat one another along the way.

    A young Jewish scholar asked Jesus, “What is the greatest commandment?” Quoting the prophets, Jesus replied, “The great commandment is this… to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and the second command is like it, to love your neighbor as you love yourself.”

    “This is my commandment,” Jesus said, “that you love one another, as I have loved you.” On this the Bible is explicitly clear. Even if we disagree about what the Bible seems to say about homosexuality, we can agree that above all else we are commanded by the Scriptures to love God and to love one another.

    Since God is the God of truth, since Jesus himself told us that the truth would set us free, one way that we love God and love one another is by seeking the truth about sexual orientation wherever we can find it.

    There is a growing body of evidence from science, psychology, history, psychiatry, medicine, and personal experience that leads to a clear verdict: Homosexuality is neither a sickness nor a sin. Unfortunately, the church has always been slow, if not the last institution on earth, to accept new truth.

    In 1632 the scientist Galileo (who was a man of faith) dared to support the radical 15th-century idea of Copernicus that all planets, including the earth, revolve around the sun. Immediately, Galileo was proclaimed a heretic by the Pope who quoted Scriptures in his attempt to disprove what science was proving.

    Earlier, Protestant heroes had joined in quoting Scriptures condemning Copernicus. These weren’t evil men. But they couldn’t admit that the Bible was a book about God, not about astronomy — just as good men and women today have trouble admitting that the Bible is a book about God, not about human sexuality.

    Martin Luther said, “This fool Copernicus wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture in Joshua 10:13 tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.”

    John Calvin quoted Psalm 93 in his attack on Copernicus. “The earth also is established. It cannot be moved.” Calvin added, “Who will venture to place the authority of Copernicus above that of the Holy Spirit?”

    Melancthon, one of Luther’s closest allies, used Ecclesiastes 1:4-5 to condemn Copernicus. “The sun also rises, and the sun goes down and hurries to the place from which it came.” Then he added these dangerous words: “It is the part of a good mind to accept the truth as revealed by God and to obey it.” In other words, believe what the Bible says — even if science disproves it.

    Because Christians refused to let their understanding of God’s Word be informed by science, Copernicus was condemned and Galileo was declared a heretic and placed under house arrest for the remainder of his life. In 1992, 359 years later, Pope John Paul II finally admitted the church had been wrong to ignore science and to interpret the Bible literally.

    The Pope said something we must never forget: “Recent historical studies enable us to state that this sad misunderstanding now belongs to the past.” Unfortunately, the apology came too late to relieve Galileo of his suffering. What if the biblical scholars of Galileo’s day had said to Galileo, “We don’t agree with your Copernican theories, but we love and trust you. As long as you love God and seek God’s will in your life, you are welcome here.”

    Imagine the suffering that could be avoided if the church could say this to their lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender children: “We don’t understand your views about sexual orientation, but we love and trust you. As long as you love God and seek God’s will in your life, you are welcome here.”

    Instead, well-intentioned Christians are driving their own children away from the church, using Scripture passages that may not even pertain to sexual orientation as we understand it.


  27. Xavier V says:

    Whatever some people believe the Bible says about homosexuality, they must not use that belief to deny homosexuals their basic civil rights. To discriminate against sexual or gender minorities is unjust and un-American.

    Please consider one last thing. I love the Bible. I read God’s Word in it and hear God’s Word through it. But the United States is not a nation governed by the Bible. Our nation is governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Our laws were created to protect an individual’s right to disagree. If the Bible (or someone’s view of the Bible) replaces the Constitution as the law of the land, we undermine the great foundation upon which this country was built.

    When I was a guest on a talk show in Seattle, I saw what might happen to me and to millions like me if a genuine literalist gained political power over this country. The other guest on the show was an independent Presbyterian pastor. When I told him that I was gay, he said without hesitation, “Then you should be killed.” A Christian brother sentenced me to death, guided only by his literal understanding of Leviticus 20:13.

    I asked him, “Who should do the killing, you church folk?” He answered, “No, that’s the civil authorities’ job. That’s why we need to elect more good men of God into government.” I sat there in stunned silence, until he added, “I know it must be hard for you to hear it, Dr. White — but God said it first and it’s our job to obey.”

    I hope we can agree that all of us must stand together against those who would replace the Constitution with biblical law. That’s why, when I lecture on a university campus, I carry a Bible in one pocket and a Constitution in the other.

    Can we support full civil rights for all… even if we disagree?

    In this last premise, I’m asking you who disagree with my stand on homosexuality to support my stand on full civil rights for all people, including gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Americans.

    ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness’.

    I hope you’ll agree that we are family, all sisters and brothers of the same heavenly parent. We may be different, but we can still live together in peace.


    • Hi Xavier V, You know, I’ve just ran across and read your apologistic debate in defense of homosexuality as being morally acceptable from a biblical perspective within the last day (August 22) and I also see that no one else, as of now, has responded to your several long and consecutive posts in over four months. I guess that shows that I’m getting slack on staying abreast of B&E’s latest comments postings. First off, I do have to admit that you make a fairly compelling argument for the “legitimacy” of non-heterosexuality and no one can say that you haven’t “done your homework” on an issue that you’re obviously very passionate about. However, I can’t help but wonder how far “down this road” that society is going to end up going. It would seem to me that the vast majority of the “LGBT” community of today’s society is not content with just “letting them mind their own business” but are very militant and “in your face” about their sexuality and are very intolerant of any opposing view in regards to their sexuality. At least that’s what the mainstream news media portrays. When a photographer who express their Christian faith as a reason for declining to take pictures for a gay wedding and the phtoppotographer ends up in getting sued and incurring significant legal expenses just to defend him/herslef, regardless of whether or not they prevail in courf (and we’re seeing more and more instances of where the Christian loses). And thanks to judicial activism, many states are now having their own laws on the definition of marriage overturned just by the fiat of one activist judge. I thought America was supposed be a government of the people, by the people, and for the people? Apparently not when it comes to the issue of socially recognized marriages, when it deals with homosexuality.

      All of these biblical references that would certainly appear to condemn homosexuality and that you attempt to explain away as being a merely cultural issues of the time frame in which it was written, I can’t help but wonder could one not use the same stretch of reasoning to justify almost any type of activity imaginable? And to say that just because one is “born with” same sex attraction (BTW, I think the jury is still out on the viability of a “gay” gene) justifies homosexuality as legitimate from a biblical standpoint? Seems to me that a serial killer, child rapist could justify his actions with that same reasoning (I can’t help it, I’ve always wanted to kill someone or have sex with young children). We are all born with a sinful nature (Psalm 51:5) and just because we feel compelled toward certain actions, that certainly doesn’t mean that it’s OK to act on it. From what I have read, a pretty substantial majority of gay men have some common denominators in their upbringing. Most had/have a poor or nonexistent relationship with their father and are consequently very close with their mothers and many were also sexually abused during childhood by some family or family friend theirselves. If this is correct, it would seem to suggest environmental factors contributing to their homosexual tendencies and not necessarily a genetic trait. I’m not saying that this is a cookie cutter, one size fits all explanantion for homosexuality, but I am convinced that environment factors in to this equation much more profoundly than genetics. Environment and the fact that every human is BORN a with a naturally rebellious and sinful nature!

      And let’s not forget that the average homosexual couple is FAR more likely to be promiscuous and unfaithful to each other than their heterosexual counterparts. That is why HIV and other STDs are more prevelant in the LGBT community than the heterosexual community. Also, as far as your assertation that the medical community fully legitimizes homosexuality, then why is it that they still do not want to accept blood donations from openly gay people or any man “who’s had sex with another man since 1977”? At least that’s the questions that I was asked the last time that I donated blood. It would seem that the medical community is convinced that homosexual sex is truly risky behavior, as far as risk of the spreading of blood born pathogens through blood transfusions go and irregardless of it physiological implications.

      As far as the Old Testament law being no longer applicable to Christians of the church age, yes , I agree with that general summation. And although there are many aspects of the Mosaic law that are not assimilated in modern western cultures, there are also many other aspects that in fact ARE a part of modern western civilization’s legal system. And heterosexual marriage is one of these concepts that has been universal in both pagan and Judeo-Christian cultures since the dawn of human civilization. And inspite of your play on linguistic semantics with the New Testament references to this, I think that it is pretty apparent to any reasonable person who reads these Scriptural references that homosexual activity is in fact condemned. Notice that I said homosexual “activity”, not “tendencies” or “desires”. It is not a sin to be tempted to do something that is sinful, it only becomes a sin when you act upon it. I’m sure some people do have the sexual attraction towards people of the same gender and very well may have had it for as long they can remember. I personsally had no idea what sex was until I was at least 11 or 12, though! Guess I was “sheltered”.

      I would finally point to the general deterioration of our society since we have become more “gay friendly”. Look at the confusion that it is causing when we can’t refuse to let a boy (who thinks he’s a girl) use the ladies bathroom or locker room facilities in middle school. Look at the personale and morale issues that our men and women in military service are having to deal with now that we have to accommodate the LGBT that ” want to serve”. Look at the debauchery and hedonism that’s publically celebrated in “gay pride” parades in San Francisco every June. I could go on and on but at the end of the day, I personally can’t see much “positive” influence that the LGBT culture has contributed to modern civilization. As a matter of fact, it appears that this movement is causing the destruction of our culture. Now as far as my attitude toward any individual who is obviously gay, I am to show them the same courtesy and love of Christ that I would to anyone else and I certainly don’t agree with “gay bashing”. However, I am NOT to endorse their behavior as being legitimate from a moral viewpoint because it is still obvious to me (and I would think to any reasonable and true follower of Christ) that homosexuality is sinful. I hope you are still following this thread and I would love to hear your response or rebuttal and for anyone else to ” jump in”, as I think a proper debate from alternate viewpoints is good and a lot of what B&E’s website is about.


      • PS- Please excuse my typos as I had to compose this text at work from my tablet and I’m not that good at typing in general and certainly not on a touch screen tablet. ;-\ BTW, “physiological” was supposed to be “psychological”


      • Hi David,

        Thanks for your comment. You are correct – I did not respond to Xavier’s comment. I do not respond to all comments on the site because 1) there are many and while I appreciate them and love good discussion, time does not permit me to address everyone 2) I do not wish to interject into every discussion. The article represents this ministry statement and belief. So the comments are really there for the reader to offer theirs.

        In this instance, Xavier’s questions have obvious answers. Should Christians support the position of the person on this talk show and start carrying out our own capital punishment? Of course not. But this is such an extreme position it does not represent the Church at all. It’s also somewhat of a straw man argument because it is premised on a very shallow understanding of the Levitical law. It’s very easy to cite the death penalties in the law and ignore the NUMEROUS instructions for sacrifice and atonement to cover those same sins so a person, or even a nation would not have to be punished immediately for their iniquity. This is why sacrifices were done several times daily. This is why a special sacrifice was done in the Most Holy Place on the Day of Atonement. EVERYONE in ancient Israel sinned. Hence the need for the thousands of priestly sacrifices that were carried out each year.

        So while we are not under the Mosaic Law, the principles of the law are still found in the New Covenant. The wages of sin is DEATH. If you die in your sin, you will go to Hell. The death penalty is still in effect for all sinners. But just as God had mercy in the Old Testament (after all how many times were homosexuals put to death in the Old Testament???), He has grace in the New Testament through the perfect sacrifice (there’s that sacrifice element again) of Jesus Christ The Lord on the cross which provided a one-time, perfect atonement for all sin for all time. And without that sacrifice and the blood covering you (by faith), you will die and go to Hell. Without question.

        So the Law still has a purpose today – to prove to us that we are sinners.

        Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. – Galatians 3:24-26.

        So if you have no faith in Christ, the law is there to provoke you to shame and guilt, so that you will see your need for forgiveness, which can be obtained freely through faith in Christ. So let’s not just put it all on the shelf.

        Secondly, talking about “civil rights” and “equality under the law” obscures the real issue – SIN. Politicians pass laws every day that non-believers do not agree with. Does that affect those peoples philosophies about politics? No. Do non-believers have an obligation to support every war Congress or the President enter the nation into just because there’s a legal justification? Of course not. So whether or not a legal argument can be made for gay marriage has absolutely nothing to do with what the Bible says – that homosexuality is SIN. No law can ever change that. And as Christians there is no rationalizing the support of sin. If a Christian lives in a state or nation that legalizes gay marriage, so be it. There are all sorts of other sins being carried out via laws, so why should this be any different? What if a state wants to legalize prostitution? Do Christians have an obligation to support it because of equal rights? Of course not. We are to obey God, not men.

        At the same time, Christians do not have to go out and protest these laws either. The Lord Jesus Christ never did any political lobbying or rallying. He spoke the truth – which is The Word of God. And that is what Christians should do – continue to preach the Gospel and talk about the real problem society faces – its sin.

        Finally, let’s not forget that outside of the Mosaic law, the Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin. Jesus Christ defined marriage as being between a man and a woman in Matthew 19. Romans 1 gives a detailed explanation of homosexuality being a sin. And Sodom and Gomorrah’s destruction took place BEFORE the law of Moses (and centuries before Moses was even born). So we can know confidently that Scripture’s view is consistent throughout.

        So in sum, Christians do not have to get involved in politics to advance the Christian faith. There has been too much emphasis put on laws and not enough on the Bible. Laws will not change a person’s heart. Laws will not save someone’s soul. Only Christ can. And that’s where our focus should be regardless of what governments choose to do. But to assert that The Lord Jesus Christ would support gay marriage is not just wildly incorrect, it’s an affront to the Bible itself.


  28. Love Of Vast Expanse says:

    Well put above its amazing how being born different through no fault of your own can give you a different view on these matters. Unconditional Love knows no conditions it is just that Love without condition That means if someone is Gay and you pray they are heterosexual you are putting conditions on that Love and the same with people who do not follow your faith. If you have conditions on your Love that makes it transient and in my opinion a counterfeit of Gods eternal true Love. When people take these words too literally it can lead to the death of millions in its name, especially as no one of us ever saw the original and understood the original language and context. We have all seen where believing you are superior can lead, believing you are the master race/religion and all others must follow you or be exterminated and it wasn’t pretty….history is littered with such acts. May all religions, atheists and spiritualists find common ground, our love of life, maybe then we will know peace and tolerance here and get on with one another.


    • Vast Expanse — Don’t make the mistake of confusing God’s love with self-serving human love. And please don’t try to twist the bible to suit your own arguments.

      You said: ***”If you have conditions on your Love that makes it transient and in my opinion a counterfeit of Gods eternal true Love.”***

      Your opinion is irrelevant — God’s opinion is what counts. Without studying the scruptires, you have no clue about the vastness of Gods eternal love for us. But that love is not conferred by default. Sit down with a KJV bible & read it — nowhere the scriptures does it say that God grants us unconditional love just because we exist.

      God’s love is expressed in part through His infinite grace towards us, grace being unmerited favor. We can’t earn it & we don’t deserve it. One of the hardest things I’ve struggled with in my walk with Christ is accepting that God has the highest standards in the universe & He wants perfection from ALL of us, even regular Janes like me. Perfect obedience. Perfect submission to His will. Perfect love for Him & His precepts. And He sent his only Son to this earth to live as a human in order to show us it could be done! Which is why I perfer to call myself a follower of Christ rather than Christian. I am always strivng to become more Christ-like, even though I’ll never achieve that perfection in this world. But I must always continue to try.

      When was the last time you managed to be perfect at anything?

      God made the first humans, Adam & Eve, in His image & likeness & created for an eternal life of fellowship with the Lord. But then they messed up & sinned against God. That sin ultimately tainted all of their future descendants, subjecting the whole human race to death. Since sin came into the world through the first human, we are all born into this life as sinners. And the ultimate consequence of sin is death.

      But God loved us enough to provide a way out, a means of redemption, so that we would not ultimately have to suffer the death penalty.

      “For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
      – Romans 6: 20-23

      In order to reconcile the sinful nature of humans with the perfection He demands from us, God provided a savior for us through Jesus Christ. God sent His son to be born into the world as a human being, to life a human life without ever sinning & ultimately, to be crucified as the blood sacrifice that God demands as payment for sin. Just as the Jewish priests sacrified animals during old testament times. But Jesus was the final, perfect & ultimate sacrifice. The blood of Christ didn’t simply pay for the sins of one tribe or church for a year. His death paid for the sins of all humankind forever. The blood of Jesus was the final & complete ransom payment for all of our sins.

      BUT that payment only aplies to you if you choose to believe in God, admit that you’re a sinner in need of salvation, repent of your sins & ask Christ to come into your heart & life as your Lord & Savior. The gift of salvation is free, but you have to ask for it.

      You said: ***”When people take these words too literally it can lead to the death of millions in its name, especially as no one of us ever saw the original and understood the original language and context. We have all seen where believing you are superior can lead, believing you are the master race/religion and all others must follow you or be exterminated and it wasn’t pretty….history is littered with such acts.”***

      Where did you see me claim I was ‘superior’ to anyone? I’m a sinner just like you & everyone else. The difference is that I know my sins are forgiven by God because I am a follower of Christ.

      Millions die every year from demonic drugs (I mean the legal, prescription stuff) that cause the very diseases they’re supposed to cure (e.g. insulin, which eventually destroys the pancreas so your body can’t reverse diabetes on its own). Millions have died in wars that America was often responsible for starting. Millions more die from smoking — & so what? What do those deaths have to do with this discussion? To claim that taking God’s word literally is wrong because some people choose to murder in God’s name doesn’t make God, or the scriptures, liable for those deaths. True bible-believing Christians who study the scriptures & have the power of discernment won’t be out in the world killing others in God’s name. Why not concern yourself with the fate of your own soul rather than the deaths of strangers?

      It’s always amusing to me how non-believers hold the bible to a standard higher than they maintain for any other text on earth, yet they refuse to accept that the God behind the bible would have had the power & forethought to ensure that His scriptures would survive through the ages intact. We DO have the means to study every word of the bible in the “original language and context”, thanks to Strong’s Concordance & the various Greek, Hebrew & Aramaic lexicons (which are now available online for free). But you can only engage in that level of study with the King James bible because it’s the most accurante translation. The bible is not just another book you can pick up anywhere as long as it’s in your native langauge. The transaltion you use to study God’s word makes a world of difference.

      Non-believers can’t grasp this concept, but the King of Kings has always had ultimate control over global events. God intervened in human history in order to ensure that His guidebook for us, the bible, was translated into English by an earthly king. King James had the money & means to not only have the bible translated into English from the original texts (an offense that had been punishable by death prior to 1611), but to also print copies & distribute them to Christian churches throughout the British empire. The King James bible was eventually translated into nearly every language on earth.

      And Strong’s Concordance, which offers lexicons in both Greek & Hebrew for Every Single Word In The Bible, is based on the KJV. No other version can make that claim. So if there’s ever a question about a term in the KJV, with Strong’s you can trace the word back to the original Greek or Hebrew & verify the translation yourself.

      I actually posted quite a bit of info on why the KJV is the most accurate translation in another thread back in March. If you’re really interested, you can follow this link, then scroll down to my reply to ChurchMuzic from 3/9/13:

      God expects Christians to embrace His reachings as stated in the bible & follow them. A true Christian won’t be deterred from that by the murderous excesses of the Catholic church (which is a false church anyway) from back in the 15th century or any other era.


      • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

        Look friend please don’t mistake I believe in a Christian God or the Bible as it has been portrayed, your idea of Love is your opinion based on a book. I will write what I believe in, not what you want me to believe.

        My opinion is certainly not irrelevant to me; it is the basis on which I choose how to live my life. Again your opinion is just based on a book not what is actually real, I have read parts of the KJV Bible and to me its non-sense but that is just my opinion to you it may actually resonate. I do not see it as the words of God but those of a Devil acting as God. I do not feel its Love to be Vast but very limited.

        I agree with Thomas Paine when he concluded:-

        “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the Word of God’’

        He seems like a Devil, a dictator who has created imperfect beings and then demands perfection of them, laying guilt trips on them about what a let-down they are, how they are not even worthy to kiss its feet. It seems like a God of arrogance to me, and I’m not even sure Jesus lived a perfect life, for many years seem to be missing from his story. I personally don’t believe he was any more the son of God than Hitler or Mother Teresa or Joe blogs.

        Well I’m perfect at being imperfect, so that makes me perfect at something! I guess God wasn’t too perfect at creating perfect beings either but I won’t hold it against her.

        If they were truly made in his likeness then he must’ve have been a sinner deep down to and good at messing things up! You could say he was tainted. If we are born sinners because the first humans sinned then God has got to be a sinner because he is the father of us all.

        Surely if we either go to eternal heaven or eternal hell then death is an illusion either way?

        When the Bible says:-
        Isaiah 45:6-7
        King James Version (KJV)

        6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

        7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

        How does this NOT make the Lord the Devil as well? Or Imperfection, or war too? I’m confused! If it is also imperfection then how can it demand perfection when it is not perfect?

        It is not free if I have to ask for it, its cost is me asking.

        There you have it you believe we are all sinners and scum but because you believe in Christ (the one and only way to God) you are saved and we are going to hell, are you telling me heaven is not superior to hell? You are going to a better place than those who don’t believe?

        I would say far worse than any of those deaths is eternal damnation and that’s what you are condemning those who do not believe in your cult to. I am concerned with strangers because in my beliefs they are equally as much me as I am because everything is one. When I see another suffer I feel their pain, you may see that as a bad thing and you have free will to make that choice. But was it not Jesus who said:-

        Matthew 25

        40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

        I’m glad you find me amusing…at least that’s one positive for you from this discussion.

        I should imagine the Devil would have those powers to…interesting. Perhaps the Devil had been playing those people all along and he is playing you now like a flute as you read these words. Perhaps Jesus was the son of the Devil and this is who you pray for saviour to, again I ask your opinion on the quote I put above:-

        7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
        From the KJV what he meant?

        Much Love to you, I wish you all the best in your search for God. May you find Peace and harmony. The above is just my opinion, just like the words of your Bible are not Gods but someones opinion.


        • “your opinion is just based on a book not what is actually real, I have read parts of the KJV Bible and to me its non-sense”

          I have to ask if you really feel that way, why are you here? Your not going to change anyones mind if they truly follow Christ and His book. When i read that I decided nothing you had to say was of value. You in essence have said that our God and His word are of no value. So why bother voicing your opinion? How arrogant while trying to sound open minded.


          • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

            Well its not unusual for you to pick and choose what you respond to my most wonderful of compadres, but always look at what I write, to me it has no value, particularly when its followed literally…the key words here ‘to me’ not to you. You cant expect me to follow the teachings you believe anymore than I expect you to follow mine. Tell me do you believe in my God? No…do I need you to? NO! Am I offended no, do I still see value in what you say…yes, because it has value to you. But as far as I can see Christians have a long history of trying to convert people and sometimes through force. I write here because I am studying the behaviour and opinions of fundamentalist Christians for part of the book I am writing. I will let the world make up their own minds about the things you write in retort to my questions, I think you are entitled to your beliefs like I am mine, I would never condemn you to eternal hell for yours though. And no response to the quote:-

            Isaiah 45:6-7
            King James Version (KJV)

            6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

            7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

            Your God is evil even according to your OWN teachings…but yet this part you conveniently ignore as of no value. Well respond or not brother, still know I have nothing but Love for you, your family and everyone on this site and I wish you nothing but the deserved fruits of your labour. You are playing your part and doing it very well I might add…so a pat on the back for you. You make me smile and for that I am most grateful Dan.


            • @Love Of Vast Expanse Thats very good that your able to take scripture out of context and make a point. But you should know that Isaiah 45:7 is about calamity. It has nothing to do with what your trying to prove. I really have no reason to accept that someone who rejects His word could school me or anyone else on it. You see the part your missing is the Holy Spirit. God will take the wisdom of ‘man’ and show it as foolishness. See if you can find that reference. You want to school us all about how we are inferior and only your wisdom will shed the true light. Then you use some nonsense about how you have nothing but love, blah blah blah. You show your contempt with your nonsense. You know nothing about me other than I speak the truth you reject. Deny God, tell everyone it’s nonsense and when you stand for judgment you can explain to Him how He is irrelevant. Because weather you or anyone else likes it or not every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.


        • The vastness of human love can be to the delusion, as good as “acting” that one is born of gay relations, except by the truth it is sin that is born out of it, for in those days they sacrificed humans/children, danced & prostituted before their gods, thus differentiating the truths of paganism even spoken through christian words, in the aversion of the truth to the Christian Gospels


          • Know your enemy


          • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

            I’m sorry abey but I do not quite understand what you are getting at, are you saying gay people are just acting or am I completely misunderstanding you? Thanks.


          • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

            @Dan Well it proves most of it can be taken and twisted to suit one’s own agenda and I see you doing this too. I’m not trying to school you merely asking you a question on a quote I saw and as Ralph Emerson said “People only see what they are prepared to see.” Everyone is guilty of this, that’s for sure, and you are clearly blind if you can’t see it yourself. Ha ha I believe we are all ONE, it’s a bit difficult/impossible to believe I’m better than anyone, to me there is only one of us here and to think in these terms are a misnomer. For a Christian you do not seem very tolerant of others opinions, I’m sorry that’s normal isn’t it (joke). I know you are a human being just like me, a human brother of mine, are we not made of the same stuff? And to me what we have common far outweighs these petty differences, maybe you struggle to see past our different choices in our beliefs and for that I tell you again I have Love for you. Where you show intolerance I offer tolerance, where you show Fear I will give Love, where you bring fire I will bring water. No again my friend you are mistaking what you believe as truth, it is not…it’s just your opinion. I have no need to bow down to myself, as Jesus himself said

            ◄ John 10:33-34 ►

            33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

            34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

            Why do I need to bow down to a God which I am part of? Does a liver cell bow down and worship the whole body? Not as far as I know, it works in perfect harmony with all the other cells to create life for the body. I give life to God and you think it demands I beg it for forgiveness? Not in my view of the world. Who knows for sure which one of us is right, or if in an existence of infinite scope there is not a place for both us to paradoxically be right/wrong only time will tell and I look forward to finding out. If you are right then I look forward to my eternal liaison with my adversary Satan, for we have more in common than it’s polar opposite the God of the Bible.


          • When one preaches lust calling it love is “Acting”. Doubts & mistrust are to lengthy discussion & debates even unto vain Philosophies when in the truth, Christ by the faith is to just two words “Yea or Nay”, either God or Mammon cannot be both, or neither.


            • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

              @Abey How about when one preaches justice and tolerance, yet indulges in its opposites? The only way I can imagine someone would even know if it was personally possible to act gay whilst being straight is someone doing that or someone who is gay and pretending to be straight…and only you know if you are qualified to know that and I do not wish to judge either way, it’s your choice how you live Abey. Well considering the Christian church has always been such a materially rich institution and some of the nations with the biggest Christian following are some of the wealthiest countries on Earth and indulge in the most extreme of gluttonous behaviours, I would say they claim to worship God but actually worship Mammon as you term it.


          • The discussion is to the truth of the above Pastor against the Gospel truth. So beat not about the Bush but to the Biblical words – Yea or Nay.


  29. Dan,

    Fell free to quote whatever you like from my post — but pls. fix my typos!


  30. There was no sin that was so destroyed by God like that of Sodom until this day , the plain truth that any tom, dick or jane can observe reading the Bible without any excuses & here you have a man having printed crosses on either sides with a Bible in his hands, apleasing to Obama & his democratic kind, except that he is blind, to preaching the lie.. The biggest danger against the faith to the Apostasy, is the Complacency of its people, for Complacency is as the sin itself , to Lots wife become a pillar of salt, as a testimony to that.


  31. JoBlow says:

    •Lev. 18:22, “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”1
    •Lev. 20:13, “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them”

    Is it clear so stop saying stupidity and open your eyes GOD is GOD and does not change his words are eternal and immuable. Final


  32. I am so amazed that someone who rejects the Word of God and doesn’t miss an opportunity to tell everyone it’s nonsense. Then when he attacks our faith says he’s going to write a book using responses just so he can show the world how bitter we are. Hey look at “these Christians” see how they don’t understand. The issues are far to important and complicated to not stand against another child of Satan coming against the true church. Please go to a Muslim site and tell them how outdated and nonsensical their god is.


    • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

      I’m not sure if you are even listening to what I’m saying Dan, it’s only in my opinion that its non-sense just like you say my belief is non-sense. To the group who believe called the Christians nothing is more profound or important. I have no intention of belittling the faith or showing you as bitter, just showing the world that what you desperately need more than anything is Love from your human brothers, because it’s a lack of Love that has given yourselves such a low opinion of your own self-worth. It’s not up to me to tell people what to believe, just offer them the God that has revealed itself to me, and if it resonates with them more than the God of the Bible then to seek to find it themselves. That only through themselves and no outside authority will they find God, no priest, no religion, no amount of begging to Jesus but through expressing Unconditional Love for ALL with their actions which is what I feel God is at its purest essence. When people read my work and you call me a devil child that will only alienate yourselves from all non-Christians even more but that is your choice, I merely offer a catalyst. And if what God has spoken to me is true many will read this work that I have channelled. I’m a big fan of allot of Muhammad’s words such as:-

      ‘’A perfect Muslim is one from whose tongue and hands mankind is safe.’’

      ‘’Feed the hungry and visit a sick person, and free the captive, if he be unjustly confined. Assist any person oppressed, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.’’

      ‘’None of you truly believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.’’

      ‘’Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.’’

      ‘’He who deals unfairly with others can never become a useful member of the society’’

      ‘’ It is your own conduct which will lead you to reward or punishment, as if you had been destined therefor.’’

      ‘’God enjoins you to treat women well, for they are your mothers, daughters, aunts.’’

      ‘’Those who are patient in adversity and forgive wrongs are the doers of excellence.”
      ‘’Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first.’’

      These resonate strongly with me and the ones who use the faith as an excuse to persecute others are just using it to justify their own behaviours. I would Love to see all religions unite under ONE God and finally let go of theirs being the ONE and ONLY way to God. I will not single out any religion as the bad guys merely try to point them to similarities and hope they will begin to see this. I have grown up in a Christian society and attended Bible school so just have more experience in observing their ways than others. We will not heal the world through more separation but only through UNITY. With Love and Light to you Dan, thanks for choosing to be here and share this beautiful moment with me.


      • tentimes better says:

        Where did you grow up “in a Christian society”? No Christian society has ever been in existence in the history of the planet. But that may be the reason for your confusion you fail to see reality, alas it will be too late when you do. For your sake I hope not.


        • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

          I grew up in the UK and it does form our major faith here. As i have grown up, its true now we are allot more of a melting pot of religions and cultures…but I see that as a good thing, a way of challenging are long held beliefs. Reality is merely a construct of your perception my friend, don’t confuse it with everyone else’s. I appreciate your concern and feel it has good intentions, but use that energy to enrich the lives of those around you and it will have been spent in a far more valuable way. I have not tried to convert anyone here to my beliefs, because I value you’re free will over my desires of you believing what I do and so I will not be converted to a faith I have studied but find it has a fundamental floor in me accepting it. It just doesn’t resonate fully with me because of its exclusivity and I don’t expect your faith to change for me.


    • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

      By the way Dan I just wanted to thank you, last night after our conversation I was writing for hours, you could say…’like a man possessed’ and created some amazing material for my book. You have played a BIG role in inspiring this, you are going to have played a major part in me spreading the word…it’s sometimes those who oppose our views the most vehemently that allow an expansion of our own ideas. Once again thanks my wonderful friend you are such an inspiration and I thank my Creator She led me to this site and to these enlightening chats of ours…may Love shine through and around you, you beautiful part of creation.


      • I tried to respond to you buy my words didn’t show up; I know that I come across sometimes as angry. But I can promise you it’s just because I feel so strongly about my faith. Of course if I didn’t it wouldn’t mean much. I have learned that sometimes I have to keep in mind what the Lord said about pearls. Your rejection of Jesus and His Word is a shame because it means you won’t ever experience what real love is. Click on my name it will take you to my website. Take care


        • ok I think I have it fixed


          • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

            Thanks Dan that is very much appreciated, anger is merely a result of the difficult situation we all find ourselves in here on this planet and is completely natural and I certainly don’t think any less of you if you have come across in that way. Your faith is fantastic and very noble and just because I have a different faith, it doesn’t mean I don’t admire you. When you find God, nothing is of more importance and I feel we resonate in that way. I am a pig in Chinese astrology so your use of this teaching is most amusing to me…very synchronistic in response to my above comment. Who knows? I will let God judge me on this matter and just try to be what I feel is the best I can with the tools I have been given. Thanks for the link I will check out your website. Take care Dan; I have very much enjoyed this discourse. Apologies if I offended you at all with my opinions, that was not my intention…I do not seek to hurt, only learn and grow. All the best in your future endeavours my friend and never take all this too seriously, remember to smile and laugh…as these are wonderful gifts sorely missed on this planet.


  33. As serious as this subject is, it seems a shame that you choose to make a joke.


  34. Your means of telling everything in this piece of writing is
    in fact good, all be capable of easily know it, Thanks a lot.


  35. This story does not deserve alot of attention so I’ll simply say what it all boils down to. This is NOTHING more than man creating GOD in man’s own image. Jesus was wise enough to warn us that there would be much deception in the last days. We are “clearly” there. Deception that will fool even the elect (that’s other Christians who are NOT grounded and seek to please man……..not GOD). Thank you LORD for telling us what to expect and let your heart not be troubled believers. For these things must happen. Judge not, but pray that almighty GOD himself will pull back the scales from this mans eyes and heart and be delivered and made whole from this deception from the pit of hell.


    • The temple was made for the Arc, not the Arc made for the temple. Where man is the temple of the Living God , it means we are made for Him & he not made for us & in the latter sense is to say man makes god & which is but to say man makes himself to be god, the revelation of paganism, that ‘ole deception from Eden. This arises due to the corruption of the Masonic temple, demonstrated today by the many alters figured within the FREEMASONIC Israeli supreme court- Egypt. Except that it is come as the Prophesied “Strong Delusion” from God . THE LIE from ‘ole come down from Eden manifested through ‘The “Golden calf ” & its gods within, even unto the words ” O Israel- these are thy gods that brought thee out of Egypt”. The mixed multitude sure come out of Egypt but Egypt did not come out of them. Biblical Prophecies are based on the salvation through the very Enmity put by God between the serpent & the Woman & by their seed(s) at Eden. Freemasonry , its cabals & all its works come as that manifestation of the Enmity against the Woman, to the significance of Rev Ch 12.


  36. Xavier V:
    Stop the lying. No one is buying it here. You deny the truth from the very beginning by twisting the context and content of the Bible, and you say you love to read the Bible. You are a liar, just like your father Satan, because he was a liar from the beginning, always using God’s word and twisting it to entice others to follow a deviated path to the pit.

    Like Satan, those who love lies pretend to be angelic, mild and friends of everyone, but they mix lies into truth and cause a whole generation to stumble and fall into sin by your sweet talking and persuasion that sound right only the wreckless. You even lie to yourselves and have no capacity of repentence, because you are skilled at lying and satisfyinv your fleshly desires.

    You use all kinds of useless quotes and data to try to confuse, but the glaring truth in clear, simple verses you avoided to aid your heresy.

    There are many verses in the Bible that CLEARLY and IRREFUTABLY point out homosexual acts are grave sins, not to mention MANY more point out what God has exclusively designed as the only form blessed sexual relationship: man and a woman in marriage. Why do you lie? Is it because you are deep in deception and sin? Repent!

    As JoBlow posted from the Bible:

    •Lev. 18:22, “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”1
    •Lev. 20:13, “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them”

    If you look at these and continue to dabricate lies, all you are doing is deceiving yourself, agreeing with Satan and invoking more judgement for yourself before the Lord. Why must a sinner stop at nothing to get others to sin with him?

    I pray to God someone like you could be somehow saveable. But if you love sex with men so much you refuse to turn to God and forsake your ways and let Him set you free, then who can help you?

    Stop destroying yourself and others. REPENT in tears and hate your sins. Maybe there is still a bit of hope. Just give up following debauchery, deception, slavery to fleshly desires and seek salvation. You cannot neex it more!

    May God save those who have been deceived!


    • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

      Tee all I see in your post is someone trying to fear monger another into following what they believe to be right.

      Many of those claiming to be followers of God seem full of fear, hate and judgement these are the very traits I I recognise to be the opposite of what God is. You must understand if God is like how you claim him to be then most people would rather not go to heaven.

      You want someone who is gay put to their death and then sent to eternal torment because of their sin of loving someone of the same sex. If this is what you believe your God to desire then I feel sorry for you. I understand there is a pattern behind it all and there are reasons why such beliefs exist and have faith in their purpose.

      I truly believe

      The truth is the devil doesn’t exist because ultimately the devil is God. Oness, unity, harmony, yin and yang.

      I am the lion, I am the buffalo
      I am the cow, I am the grass
      I am the bird, I am the worm
      I am the night, I am the day
      I am the Devil, I am God
      I am Hitler, I am Jesus
      I am me and I am you too,
      together we dance with elegant grace,
      a timeless song we sing,
      in harmony as One we bring order to chaos.

      When you are able to see the light in the dark you become nocturnal like the Owl.

      Becoming aware of a hand that is hidden, guiding humanity with effortless ease to its evolution and ascension.


    • It is not just they who engage in “Sodom” but very much them Complacent. to the sin of Sodom to the words of Jesus “Remember Lots wife” for Lot’s wife even though not engaged in Sodom turned her head indicating a “soft corner” to this grave sin, to turn into a pillar of salt., as a testimony to the Complacency unto the warning from Jesus.


  37. I want to congratulate “Beginning & End” for rebuking others in such a Biblical and patient and diacerning manner. I wish there are more Christian commenters like you who can effectively and concisely rebuke Satan’s lies online.
    Dan also did a good job.

    I have noticed that people who are used by the enemy seem to often possess the following traits:

    -friendly and mild in language
    -hidden mockery
    -pretend to ask questions or want to learn
    -misquote and abuse Bible verses
    -write extremely long replies to exhaust and confuse, also to drain you
    -only give up if you can point out their hidden tactics and use Biblical verses to slay their lies
    -change tactics when rebuked or when ignored.
    -use humor to mock your statement
    -use enticement to get you to feel angry and sound irrational

    Since the world is reading, we must carry on this spiritual warefare, but perhaps we all can look at these and prayerfully develop strategies beforehand to destroy the darts of Satan and not let him waste too much of our time meanwhile.

    I have found knowing the Bible well and staying rational to be more effective.


    • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

      For me spirituality is the very opposite of war, you cannot overcome hate with more hate, intolerance with more intolerance otherwise you get stuck in a negative loop like the war between Israel and Palestine. Only love will overcome hate, peace will overcome war.

      Do you know sometimes the most irrational believe themselves to be the most rational?

      Those that exhibit the most hate believe themselves to be the most loving?

      I will let the world that is watching be the judge for themselves.

      I love you all, regardless of the fact you wish me eternal hell and suffering, I always feel those that wish suffering on others are those who deep inside are suffering the most themselves.


  38. Th beliefs that are derived through Gnosticism, an outer arm of Paganism come in Christian names by the likes of Simon Magus unto Manicheism / Catherism etc.having a strong “Alexendrian Scent ” all but demeaning to the Christian Faith, even the tool of Radical Feminism, whose target are the Church Fathers & even the Saints , using the name of Mary Magdalene to further their cause against Christ & His Church, but their truth is revealed through the following vision by the – Visionary who standing in a long alley sees seven women in a Glass house , big built & European with tight pants on heavy butts wearing blouses knotted around the navels suggesting intense sexuality even unto Sodom , knotted in the wombs- to closed wombs denoting sex void of reproduction. They moved on all four, parallel to the floor ,suggesting demons .
    On the other side of the long alley were seen revellers carrying what seemed to be statue of Mary. The revelation- the seven women denote the seven demons, said to be incurable, freed form Mary Magdalene by Jesus, as the Bible says -curing her off an “Illness” which is “Nymphomaniacism” to the demons. European features of the seven demons denote the basis of French Freemasonry to the Grail theory, Da Vinci theories/movies unto the Merovingian Conspiracy (just as King Arther to British freemasonry). These come about by the said Demons as their vengeance against Magdalene ,when she has nothing to do with any of these. Of the three Freemasonry- British, American & now French equated through German glasses. Freemasonry the manifestation of entity come off the serpent against the Woman in the Enmity put by God at Eden. Now its harbingers, always in the deceit , wants to conduct “Black Mass” at Harvard, the very same who bring out the “Sodomic Agendas”.


  39. A little more insight into this deceit called Freemasonry & caught in it are the Sodomites, their pastors & the rest, are no wonder – The visionary standing before the Woman in Glory, of revelations, is directed by Her Gesture to a Cloud on her Right side, indicating the one who ought to be worshipped , pointing directly to the First Commandments of God, unto the First Commandment of Our Lord “Love thy God —” He who himself in the Glory stood on the right hand of the Glorious Cloud, witnessing.
    Now, in the same vision( by the mercy) before the fulness of Glorious One was that ‘old dragon called the devil, the accuser of the Brethren, supposidely the god of the sodomites, the spirit of this world & in that Enmity put by God at Eden between the Woman & the Serpent , She exposed the works of the devil by revealing unto the visionary – The initiations of Freemasonry- full of rottenness & death, Lo the time is near, for the Lord stood in battle readiness. The Lord of hosts.


  40. To the “preacher”, have fun burning in hell, dude. Smh. God never changes. EVER. AND GOD DID AND STILL KNOWS IT ALL. YOU APPARENTLY DON’T.


    • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

      You can argue that God never changes but you can certainly not say mans interpretation of God never changes. No one here has seen an original Bible so cannot know for sure what was contained within its pages, what the original message its interpreters meant.

      And doesn’t God make us all gay?


  41. The Prophecy of Masonry relates to Zechariah Ch 5- called ” The Flying Scroll ” & the Wickedness that drives it, in an Ephah(rebellion/witchcraft) called “Sorcery” by which the whole world is deceived to the Prophecy , established upon her own pedstral in Shinar, is but the spirit of the devil himself -This Babylon of the day is but- a child’s guess.


  42. I am what is considered bisexual and even I know that there is nowhere in the bible that says it’s okay to be gay or bi.

    Love Of Vast Expanse:
    You can argue that God never changes but you can certainly not say mans interpretation of God never changes. No one here has seen an original Bible so cannot know for sure what was contained within its pages, what the original message its interpreters meant.

    And doesn’t God make us all gay?


    • Love Of Vast Expanse says:

      When I used the word gay I was meaning it in its original context “to be light-hearted and carefree”, thus illustrating the fallible nature of human language and how its interpretations and meanings change, sometimes over very short time periods. Ever played Chinese whispers? The further you get from the original source of the message, the more distorted its message becomes.

      I respect another person’s right to disagree with being gay or bisexual; but they must also respect the right of that same individual to be free to do what feels natural to them in regards to sexual orientation.

      We must have a right to express ourselves freely, as long as we are not hurting anyone else we should free to make our own choices

      When you are having a relationship with another woman does this really feel wrong to you? Do you prefer to be with a woman than a man?


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  44. Lion of Omega says:

    I would respectfully ask this pastor just how Jesus could possibly be “wrong” on gay marriage being that there isn’t even a single direct mention of it in the 4 gospels. The fact is that nobody can speak for Jesus on his thoughts on homosexuality because it’s a mystery. Suffice to say, however, that Jesus would much prefer consensual gay marriage between adults than the rampant abuse of children that we see all too often today, especially by those in the clergy professing (pretending) to worship God. There are much more important matters for God to contend with than peaceful gay men and women, many of whom are righteous in their own ways. Let’s get serious with our priorities in this latter day.


    • Complacency to “Sodom:” that which is come as the very Marker, is what is heard, the very antithesis of the basic structure of the human family , based on the first Holy family of God, come against the “Fruitfullness & its Multiplication”, Ignorant Christians in the name of Christianity are blinded to this integral fact who know not the difference between “Lust & Love” even Lust Camouflaged as Love , how then can they know what Jesus spoke , for the Jesus they speak is another Jesus just as Prophesied , emerging out of Paganism cause within it are a score of “Sodomic” behaviors among its gods & their -asses , the very source of the ur Mystery.
      ” Beware of lots wife ” to the Complacency , is the warning from Him against Sodom . If such be to its complacency that the act itself would be unspeakable “Just as the Angels who left their first estate, so are the men of Sodom put in chains reserved for condemnation” , & its spirit is now released unto the world taking many with them & many of their spokesmen are the many world leaders seeking political correctness(as the nations are being gathered by the beast to war against the Lamb) ,headed by the “Presidential ” Egyptian Pharaoh from the Land of “Sodom” incidentally the Biblical name of America born out of England , revealing the Prophecy of that which is spiritually called “Sodom & Egypt” , Egypt to its beliefs ,( the very beliefs come in the Sodomic Agendas) that killed our Lord.


  45. I am considering purchasing a new Bible and am wondering if you would mind responding with a detailed comparison of the differences and/or changes in the New King James version versus the King James version. I came across a comparison of the King James versus NIV in the responses to this articles and thought it was well written by you B&E. I would very much appreciate it and God bless this ministry. It means a lot to me.


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