The Red Moon Rapture – The Biblical Timing of The Rapture

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The timing of the Rapture is revealed in Scripture.

This is Part 3 in the Beginning and End Rapture Series.

The Rapture, the supernatural gathering of all born again Christians, both dead and alive, in the clouds to meet Jesus Christ and go to Heaven is one of the most debated topics in the Christian church. While most agree that it is described in Scripture, the timing has been a mystery that has provoked hundreds of thousands of debates and discussions as to when during the end times will it happen. This article will show Biblically, that the purpose and timing of the Rapture can be explained based on scripture alone and offers a different interpretation from the 3 major Rapture models that are most popular today.

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. — Amos 3:7.

In Parts 1 and 2 of the Beginning and End Rapture Series, we detailed the significance of the Day of The Lord, the end times outpouring of supernatural judgments poured out by God on the unbelieving world. Part 2 showed that God has demonstrated all throughout the Bible that He secures and removes His faithful followers before a supernatural judgment is unleashed. The Rapture is the final such gathering that will take place before the end times: the final 7 years on Earth before the Second Coming of Christ. The “Red Moon Rapture” a name created and popularized by Bible scholar and author Peter Goodgame, accurately details the timing of the Rapture. (B&E – We strongly recommend reading Parts 1 and 2 of the Rapture series if you have not as this article was written with the assumption that the reader has knowledge of both).

The Rapture in Scripture – An Escape and a Wedding

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“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..”1 Thessalonians 4:17.

 

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. – 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

In order to properly understand the Rapture we must examine its purposes. The Rapture serves as an escape for the Church – those who are true born again believers in Jesus Christ, from the devastating, supernatural catastrophes and punishments that will be sent on the world in the Day of The Lord. The Apostle Paul makes it clear that Day of The Lord will punish the unbelieving world:

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. – 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6.

The Day of The Lord, described repeatedly in Old Testament Scripture is the event that starts the end of the world. It is critical to understand the Biblical passages on the Day of The Lord to truly grasp the timing and purpose of the end times themselves and the Rapture (we detail this is in our Part 1 article, The Day of The Lord – The Event That Starts the End of The World). The Apostle Paul confirms this by writing, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that the Day of The Lord comes as a “thief in the night.” He describes the world as thinking it has just achieved global peace and safety. Things are not only okay in the world, it sounds like the nations are moving to be at complete peace with each other. Clearly no end times event has taken place yet. And then, as if out of nowhere, The Day of The Lord commences.

 

Revelation 6 Sixth Seal Rapture | When does the Rapture happen?

The devastation of the Day of The Lord will leave no question that God Himself is punishing the unbelieving world.

Also note that Paul makes the distinction between the Church (whom he calls “ye”, which is the plural of “you”) and the unbelieving world that has rejected God (“they”). This distinction is critical to understanding Bible prophecy as Jesus Christ employs the same language in the prophecies in the Gospel (which Paul is purposely repeating). Paul reassures the church in Thessalonica that yourselves, meaning the Church, “know perfectly” that the Day of The Lord will come unexpectedly. At that point “they”, meaning the unbelievers of the world, will suffer “sudden destruction” and “they shall not escape.” Paul then says in the very next verse “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” The word overtake, which is katalambanō in Greek, means to “lay hold of” or “possess.” Christians will not be destroyed or suffer in the Day of The Lord. We will escape. And that escape is the Rapture.

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.  Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.  For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. — Isaiah 26:19-21.

The verse above from Isaiah 26 outlines the exact description of the Rapture given in 2 Thessalonians: ” Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. ” — the dead will resurrect and receive their new bodies first.

“Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” The implication here is that the believers in God are instructed to “shut thy doors” and “hide” until the “indignation” be overpast. The language of a shut door is used several times in Scripture to indicate signify The Lord removing and hiding His people before pouring out a judgment on the sinning world. At the Rapture, believers will be hidden in their “chamber” in Heaven once the Day of The Lord, referred to several times in Scripture as “the indignation” is finished.

Notice verse 21 states: “For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” This again alludes to the Day of The Lord – the time when God Himself will arise to punish the sinful world with the trumpet and vial judgments described in the book of Revelation. Understanding the Day of The Lord and the numerous Old Testament Scriptures regarding it is essential to understand the end times. Once that is known, the timing of the of the Rapture is much clearer.

The 5th Seal Martyrs – Prelude to the Rapture

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The martyrs ask The Lord “how long?” before their blood is avenged.

 

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. – Revelation 6:9-11.

The souls of the believers under the altar at the 5th Seal give an important insight into the timing of the Rapture. Here we have another critical point of Biblical interpretation – the group of saints under the altar are not the raptured church, nor are they all believers who have died up until that point in history. The Scripture is clear that this particular group of people are martyrs – believers who had been killed for their faith throughout time. And they cry out to God to ask “How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” The Day of The Lord is a time of the Lord’s vengeance on the Earth for its sins and within that, the murder of those who believe in God. At the opening of the 5th Seal it has not started yet, because the Saints are still asking, “how long?” before God will start to judge the world. This is very important – at this point – any rapture model or theory that proposes that the end times starts before the 5th Seal fails. We see further confirmation of this in the Gospels from Jesus who said in describing the first several seals of Revelation 6:

And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. — Mark 13:5-7.

Jesus describes the first 2 seals of Revelation 6 and confirms that “the end shall not be yet.” The end times starts at the Day of The Lord which is at the 6th Seal. Thus the traditional pre-tribulation, or “pre-trib” model, which places the start of the Day of The Lord (which it calls the ‘7 year tribulation’) and the Rapture at the opening of the first seal, is not correct for this one point. Additionally, the pre-wrath position which also places the start of the end times judgment of God at the opening of the first seal, is incorrect. Joel chapter 2, which is a description of the Day of The Lord, confirms the 6th Seal as the time the ends times commence: “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.” (Joel 2:31).  The signs of the moon turning to blood and the sun turning black only occur together at one point in the entire Bible – the 6th Seal.

The martyrs under the altar confirm that the Day of The Lord has not yet commenced at the opening 5th Seal. These martyred Christians are told by God to wait a “little longer” until the final saints to be martyred in the Church Age have been killed for their faith. However they are given white robes afterwards, which is a sign (as will be shown) of the Rapture.   And then we see the Rapture:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;  And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.  And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,  Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 

 

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. – Revelation 7:9-14. 

The 6th Seal’s earthquake is the start of the Day of The Lord and the moments before it is the point where the Rapture of the church takes place. The martyrs of the 5th Seal are given their robes, which represent the raptured church, first – because the dead in Christ rise first at the Rapture. Then the 6th Seal is opened, the red moon and the black sun all manifesting to people on the Earth and the start of the Day of The Lord, with God’s earthquake judgment.

The Multitude of Revelation 7 – The Raptured Church

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“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.” — Revelation 7:9-10.

Throughout Revelation, the Apostle John’s perspective moves from Heaven to Earth. In describing the 6th Seal, John details Earthly events (the sun turning dark, moon turning red, earthquake, etc.). In the very next passage in Revelation 7, John describes the 144,000 Jewish witnesses who are sealed and witness the Gospel in the Earth. Then his perspective moves back to Heaven. And the very next thing John sees in Heaven is the multitude of Revelation 7: “that no man could number.”

 

This racially, ethnically diverse, innumerable group, standing before the throne of Jesus is the Raptured Church. Many authors and websites suggest that this group are “saints killed by the Antichrist during the tribulation” but the Scripture does not say this. Just verses earlier, John readily identified martyrs who have been killed for their faith and yet when the multitude in Revelation 7 appears out of nowhere (hence, the language “and lo, I beheld..” which indicates a sudden surprise), John has no idea who they are. This is worth examination:

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. – Revelation 7:13-15.

“Great tribulation” is another term for the Day of The Lord. As this series has already stated, the terms are interchangeable in Scripture. Bible scholar Peter Goodgame writes:

The adjective “great” is necessary to create a distinction between the end-times “great tribulation” and the “tribulation” that began for the Church the moment that it was formed in the first century AD. That the Church was promised “tribulation,” and has endured “tribulation” from the very beginning, is proven in a number of texts (all from the KJV):

Acts 14:22 – “Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”

Romans 5:1-3 – “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience…” ….

Believers must understand that they will continually face “tribulation” for maintaining and proclaiming their faith. However, the Bible offers no evidence whatsoever that believers must be prepared to enter into the end-times “great tribulation.” In fact, the opposite is true.

There are only three instances of the term “great tribulation” found in the Bible. Studied together these passages make it clear that the “great tribulation” applies to the entire Day of the Lord and that believers are promised to be kept from it.

The first passage is Matthew 24:15-21 (KJV),

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains… For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

Some prophecy scholars conclude that Jesus meant that the term “great tribulation” should be reserved to apply only to the second half of the seventieth week of Daniel. It is true that Jesus referred to this time period descriptively as a time of “great tribulation” but he immediately modified his description of that time to be the period of “greatest tribulation.” The entire Day of the Lord will be a period characterized by “great tribulation” but the second half of the seventieth week will be the time of “greatest tribulation.” (source).

 

Additionally, the term “came out of Great Tribulation”, used by the angel who is speaking to John, indicates a sudden escape. In Greek the term erxomenoi, is given a special qualification of its tense in Strong’s concordance:

“5774 Tense – Present

The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed ‘historical presents,’ and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present.”

In other words, the phrase reads as if John is watching people who are just coming out of the Great Tribulation as it starts, as opposed to seeing saints who were killed during the Great Tribulation (and remember Scripture never says that the saints of Revelation 7 were martyred, or that they died at all).  This interpretation lines up with Jesus’ description of the end times in Luke 21:

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. – Luke 21:36.

As we have shown in Part 2 of the Rapture Series, Believers Shall Escape – Foreshadows of the Rapture, throughout  Old Testament Scripture, God has previewed the Rapture with the pattern that believers escape just before His judgment on the unbelieving world comes down. When the Raptured multitude appears in Heaven, they have not only escaped the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation, but are indeed standing before the throne of God the Father and Jesus.

 
Wrath on Earth – Salvation in Heaven

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The opening of the Sixth Seal will lead to a destructive earthquake that marks the beginning of the end times.

“And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand.” — Revelation 6:15-17.

At the 6th Seal, the entire Earth is devastated by a global earthquake. The Bible goes out of its way to make it clear that every single person on the planet is on the run in fear of God at this event. But if there were Christians on the Earth at this time, why would they be scared? Why would they scream out in fear of the wrath of God? The answer is because there are no Christians on the Earth at this moment. This is another confirmation that the Rapture has just taken place because Christians would never run in fear or worry about who is able to “stand” in the face of God’s wrath because they are saved from God’s wrath through Jesus Christ. Chapter 2 of the Book of Thessalonians addresses this very point. This church was deceived into believing they missed the Rapture and were now living in the Day of The Lord, and were frightened. The Apostle Paul wrote to them to reassure them that they had not missed the Rapture (for more on this see

However, as the unbelieving world runs and hides for fear of God’s wrath, the Raptured Multitude in Heaven is singing of its salvation in Jesus:

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number…And [they] cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”

This group has just escaped from the Great Tribulation and are shouting “salvation” before the throne of Jesus. Just as described in 1 Thessalonians 5, destruction has come upon “them” (the unbelievers) but “we” (believers) are not overtaken by the Day of The Lord. The Apostle’s Paul concludes this section on the Day of The Lord and the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 5 with:

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, – 1 Thessalonians 5:10.

The unbelieving world is screaming “wrath!” while the Christian Church that has been raptured in Revelation 7, is in Heaven before Jesus and is shouting “salvation!”

The Rapture in Matthew 24 – The Bridegroom Comes For His Bride

Bible Bride of Christ | When is the Rapture? 6th Seal Rapture

Marriage is a foreshadow of Christ uniting with His Church.

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.. — Matthew 24:40-48.

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night…” – 2 Peter 3:10.

Behold, I come as a thief.” – Jesus Christ, Revelation 16:15.

Noah’s escape of the flood in the ark, a foreshadow of the Rapture, was one of the examples Jesus used in this passage to describe the Rapture. Notice Jesus references that in those days before the flood, which no one in the world expected that judgment from God (it had never even rained before that day), “they” meaning the unbelieving world, were carrying on with sinful life as usual. But like a thief, the flood came unexpectedly, punishing the rebellious world while righteous Noah and his family escaped safely in the ark. Jesus’ coming in the clouds for His church is an event that will not be expected and is a different event from His Second Coming, which will be expected as the Antichrist and his armies will be waiting in Megiddo for Jesus to arrive at the Battle of Armageddon. The Day of The Lord is also described as a “thief in the night” by the both Peter and Paul. These events are described similarly because the Rapture directly precedes the Day of The Lord.

 
Jesus then refers to “two in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.” This is a description of the Rapture. The word for taken in this verse is paralambanō in Greek. This is a different Greek meaning from the word “taken” from the general understanding of the word. The translation is “to take to, to take with one’s self, to join with one’s self.” The Greek word paralambanō is the same word Jesus used for “receive” in John 14:

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive [paralambanō] receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. – John 14:1-3.

The word consistency is no coincidence. Jesus is again referencing the symbolic Hebrew wedding ceremony of Himself to His Bride, the Church. All born again believers are going to be wed to Jesus as His Bride. This symbolic spiritual union is confirmed in Ephesians 5:

 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it… For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. – Ephesians 5:22-32.

This “mystery” which is only being revealed in the church age is that marriage itself is a type and shadow of the spiritual relationship between Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom and His Church, the Bride of Christ.

In this light, it now makes sense that the references in the John 14 passage are with respect to the ancient Hebrew wedding in which the groom would first depart to prepare a bridal chamber for his bride in his father’s house. Once the chamber was complete and at a time that the father approved, the groom would return at an unexpected hour to “snatch” his bride and commence the wedding ceremony. Jesus explains this in detail in Matthew 25 with the parable of the Ten Virgins. This snatching or seizing is also depicted in Judges Chapter 21, when the Tribe of Benjamin, who had been cut off from the nation of Israel, were permitted to “snatch brides” as a way to re-enter the nation and start a new lineage:

Then the elders of the congregation said, How shall we do for wives for them that remain, seeing the women are destroyed out of Benjamin? And they said, There must be an inheritance for them that be escaped of Benjamin, that a tribe be not destroyed out of Israel. Howbeit we may not give them wives of our daughters: for the children of Israel have sworn, saying, Cursed be he that giveth a wife to Benjamin. Then they said, Behold, there is a feast of the LORD in Shiloh yearly in a place which is on the north side of Bethel, on the east side of the highway that goeth up from Bethel to Shechem, and on the south of Lebonah.

Therefore they commanded the children of Benjamin, saying, Go and lie in wait in the vineyards; And see, and, behold, if the daughters of Shiloh come out to dance in dances, then come ye out of the vineyards, and catch you every man his wife of the daughters of Shiloh, and go to the land of Benjamin…And the children of

Benjamin did so, and took them wives, according to their number, of them that danced, whom they caught: and they went and returned unto their inheritance, and repaired the cities, and dwelt in them. — Judges 21.

The men literally “caught” their unsuspecting brides foreshadowing the Church, the bride of Christ, who will be “caught up” at the Rapture and brought to the chamber in Heaven.

But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. — Matthew 24:43-44.

Jesus refers to Himself as a thief again signifying the arrival for the groom. The Groom in the ancient wedding arrived unexpectedly and thus the bride had to be prepared and watching for his arrival. The groom would then arrive with his groomsmen who would give a loud shout to signal his arrival (a tradition still practiced at Orthodox Jewish weddings today — something this author had the pleasure of witnessing first hand). The arrival of the groom at an unknown day and hour, the shout, the catching of the bride — these are all of the elements mentioned in the passages regarding the Rapture in Scripture and Jesus makes this even clearer with the parable of the Ten Virgins, which is about the Rapture.

Jesus Christ Is The Bridegroom

The Jewish marriage ceremony is a type and shadow of the union of Jesus Christ with His church:

Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not? And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. – Matthew 9:14-15.

 

Jesus Christ used the marital ceremony to indicate it is a foreshadow of His own marriage to His bride the church. John the Baptist understood this Old Testament foreshadowing as well:

John [the Baptist] answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

Again, there is a reference to Jesus as the bridegroom. In traditional Jewish marriage, the groom-to-be presented a payment to the bride’s father as a commitment to marry her in the future. This was demonstrated by Abraham’s servant, who, when looking for a bride for Isaac, gave expensive jewelery to Rebekkah as a dowry for her marriage (and of course this tradition is still done today in Western cultures in the form of an “engagement ring” which the bride receives before the wedding as a sign that the groom has committed to marrying her in the future). Jesus paid for His Church with His shed blood on the cross. The next step of the marriage was for the groom and bride to share a cup of wine as a symbol of their betrothal. During the Last Supper feast, just before Jesus Christ was crucified, he lifted the cup of wine for the Passover Seder and made a powerful illustration:

“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” – Matthew 26:28-29.

The groom then goes to prepare a bridal chamber in his father’s house for his new bride. Jesus clearly describes this when He stated that His Father’s House (Heaven) had many mansions and “I go to prepare a place for you..”

The Church is the Bride

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. – 2 Corinthians 11:2.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; – Ephesians 5:25.

The church is clearly the “bride of Christ.” The bride’s duty at this point was to prepare herself with a white gown and have herself ready for the groom’s return to receive her. The bride did not know the time the groom would come and thus watching out for him was critical. When the groom returned there would be a shout as he approached to signal his arrival. Again we see this as a type and picture of the Rapture:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. – 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18.

The shout will precede the Church, the bride of Christ, being snatched into the clouds where Jesus Himself will meet us, and take His bride back to Heaven to remain in the marital chamber until “the indignation” or the punishment of the unbelieving world, has passed. Paul in verse 18 says that the Thessalonians were to “comfort one another” because they were not going to suffer the Day of The Lord, which is the very next thing he describes in chapter 5. Jesus at the Rapture and the Day of The Lord are both described with the term “thief in the night” because they are virtually simultaneous events.

 
Symbolism of The Bridal Gown – Some “Christians” Will Miss The Rapture

Letters to Seven Church | When Is The Rapture? Biblical Explanation

The Seven churches are warned about missing the Rapture.

The letters to the 7 churches of Asia Minor in Revelation Chapters 2 and 3 were sent to real churches that existed at the time of the writing of Revelation but they contain messages that apply to churches all the way into modern times. The messages apply words of encouragement and promises of reward for faithful believers in Jesus Christ. On the other hand, there are warnings of judgment and punishment for false believers who may profess to be Christian but really are not. And one of the main punishments is missing the rapture and being overtaken by the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation.
The Church of Pergamos is warned:

But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.Revelation 2:14-16.

Jesus fights the Antichrist and the unbelieving world with the “sword of his mouth” at Armageddon in Revelation 19. The warning is that if those in the Pergamom church do not cease from mixing with false religions and occult practices (something many churches are doing today) they will be left behind for the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation. But Jesus tells them to repent to avoid this punishment.

The Church of Thyatira is warned:

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. – Revelation 2:20-22.

Again, those who are involved in other spiritual practices and serving idols are told that if they do not repent and truly believe in Jesus Christ, they will be cast into “great tribulation.” This is the only other time Jesus uses the term “great tribulation” outside of Matthew 24 when He is describing the events of the Day of The Lord. So again, it is clear that false believers, who may claim to be Christian but hold to non-Biblical spiritual beliefs, will suffer in the Great Tribulation. They will miss the Rapture. Also of importance is that like the other warnings to the churches in Revelation, the punishment is conditional. It is clear that if this church repents, they will not experience the great tribulation.  And that escape is provided by the Rapture. The point here is to emphasize one of the 2 main purposes of the Rapture – to provide an escape for the church from the outpouring of God’s wrath at the opening of the 6th Seal of Revelation chapter 6.

The Church of Sardis is praised and warned:

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. – Revelation 3:1-4.

This letter references many of the symbols and themes discussed in this article already. If the false believers in this church do not watch or repent, Jesus will “come on thee as a thief, and thou shall not know what hour I come upon thee.” Being caught off guard by the end times is the sign of being an unbeliever (contrast this with Paul who specifically said believers will not be caught off guard by the end times and will “escape”).

Jesus then praises the faithful believers in the church of Sardis who “have not defiled their garments.” Jesus declares that those faithful believers will be “clothed in white raiment.” This is a reference to the white linen gowns of the Raptured church. And the two groups in Revelation who are wearing them are the martyrs of the 5th seal (“And white robes were given unto every one of them”) and the Raptured multitude of Revelation 7 (“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude… clothed with white robes”).
Once again the symbolism of the Rapture, the snatching of the bride and the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation all go back to the opening of the 6th seal, which is preceded by the martyrs for Christ being given robes (the dead in Christ shall rise first) and followed by the multitude suddenly appearing in Heaven in their white robes. This is because the Rapture takes places at the opening of the 6th Seal of Revelation Chapter 6.

The Church of Philadelphia is praised:

“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” – Revelation 3:10.

This faithful church of genuine believers is told that they will be saved from the “hour of temptation” that the whole world will experience. Rather than experience the 7 years of Great Tribulation, they will escape and be “kept” from it.

Psalm 27 offers an insight into God’s practice of protecting His believers from His wrath:

 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock. And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the Lord. – Psalm 27:4-5.

The book of Zephaniah goes into a lot of detail about the Day of The Lord (and is definitely recommended for an understanding of the severity of God’s wrath on unbelievers at this time). And the prophet, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit, echoes the message of salvation and escape from the wrath of God during the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation:

 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord’s anger come upon you. Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord’s anger. — Zephaniah 2:2-3.

For those who seek God, believe in Him and are forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ, God promises that they will be “hid” during the day of His wrath on the unbelieving world. These passages refute the idea of a “post-tribulation rapture” in which the church is forced to suffer the wrath of God in the Day of The Lord for 7 years. Even this time period is symbolized in Scripture by the 7 day betrothal process of a Hebrew bride. (This is symbolically pictured in the book of Judges during the wedding of Samson which lasted 7 days before it was complete, during which time the bride was in her chamber.) All these passages are clear that The Lord will protect His faithful believers in the day of His wrath.

The Church of Laodicea is warned:

“Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.” – Revelation 3:17-18.

This church is being told it will not be included in the Rapture.  Jesus says that He is going to “spew” the members of this church from His mouth. This is a very frightening comment to a group of people who believe they are Christians.

Laodicea, which received no praise from Jesus Christ is encouraged to buy “white raiment” so their nakedness, or sin would not condemn them. The white raiment is again referenced because it is what the raptured church will be wearing in Heaven. This particular letter is urging the Laodicean church to truly have saving faith while there is still time.

 

Jesus Christ gives a final warning to all readers of Revelation in Chapter 16:

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.” Revelation 16:15.

Notice the warning is not about hell. These warnings are about missing the Rapture and having to suffer through the Day of The Lord. Having a spotless garment is the symbolism of those who will escape this. And it all comes back to the start of the Day of The Lord, the 6th Seal and the multitude of Revelation 7:

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. – Revelation 7:13-14.

 

The Marriage Supper

Marriage Supper of the Lamb | The Timing of the Rapture. 6th Seal. Redmoon Rising

“Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.” – Revelation 19:9.

After the 7 years of the Great Tribulation, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place. This is also in line with the symbols and prophetic language of this study:

And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand… And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. – Revelation 19:1-9.

Notice the sequence of events in Revelation 19. The trumpet and bowl judgments have now finished. Mystery Babylon has been destroyed. And in verse 2 we read that God has “avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.” The 7 days of the marriage week are fulfilled in the 7 years the Raptured church have spent in their chamber during “the indignation” which is about to come to an end at Armageddon. (B&E: an interesting study is of the word “week”, or shbua in Hebrew which means both 7 days AND 7 years. See Genesis 29 when Jacob is told to work for a “week” to marry Leah).

The bride of Christ, the Church, who is now called the “wife” because the ceremony has started, is again described as being in clean, white linen – which is specifically linked to the saints. The Raptured church, having been in Heaven and consecrated, is now going to return to Earth with Jesus Christ for the Battle of Armageddon:

“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19:14).

This is the Raptured Church returning to Earth with its King.  The Book of Jude confirms the same: “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,” (Jude 1:14).

The marriage supper is a time when the Bride is presented to the guests of the wedding. And this will be when the Raptured church is presented to those new believers from the Great Tribulation at the resurrection of the just in Revelation 20:4. And thus the judgment of the unbelieving Earth is complete. The Raptured Bride has been preserved and saved from the wrath of God, the Bride and Groom are ready to be presented to the “guests” and the Millennial reign of Christ on Earth commences.

Do Not Miss The Wedding

There are many ideas and theories on the Rapture, and Lord willing, this article will be seen as a Biblically-based explanation that rightly divides Scripture. But regardless of one’s view on the timing of the Rapture, it is clear that the key to eternal salvation is faith in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. There will be a marriage supper one day and belief in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah and the Coming King of this world will ensure that you will be there.

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Comments

  1. Very insightful series that opens a whole new world about end-time prophecy to me. It’s also reassuring to realize that the Scriptures are pretty clear that the true Christian believers will NOT go through that global catastrophic series of events that will occur during the Great Tribulation. That has kind of bothered me in much of my Christian life, as I was always taught by my Christian parents that we would not go through the tribulation. However, after truly trusting in Christ and after reading the Bible for myself, the biblical evidence seemed a bit shaky to me to take a “dogmatic” stance on this issue. After reading your thorough and revealing series on this subject matter, I am once again convinced that I will NOT have to go through this certain coming global catastrophy as a believer, should it occur before I experience “being absent from the body”. I’m assuming that you do indeed believe that there will be a full seven years of the “Great Tribulation” AFTER the opening of the sixth seal/Day of the Lord? You clearly state that you do not agree with the “post-trib” view of the rapture and I’m also assuming that you do not espouse the “mid-trib” view either.?

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    • Hi Dave,

      Thanks very much for your comments. And while I understand you not wanting to be dogmatic on such a wide range of prophetic scriptures, I am glad you enjoyed the articles.

      As for your question, you are absolutely correct – the 7 years of Great Tribulation follow the Rapture. While it may seem odd, the end times are not about the church (with respect to what is happening on Earth). It is the punishment of the God-rejecting, heathen world and the reconciliation of Israel back to saving faith in Jesus Christ. The 70th week of Daniel, which I believe to be a literal 7 prophetic years, will be the this time. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask. God bless.

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  2. Wow, I just got to say B&E ya’ ll are awesome at explaining biblical prophecy. Like my fellow patriot Dave here, I too wasn’t sure about the rapture and when it was going to take place. You definitely (by using scripture, which I very much like) put it in a term which is easier to understand. So are you saying that we won’t know who the antichrist is, based on the fact that we will be raptured beforehand? And what about the people who are believers that are left behind? Because I know that God will leave behind believers to help spread the word after the antichrist has taken power, right?
    Rev. chapter 9 vs. 4
    “And it was commanded them that they(talking about the locusts) should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”

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    • Hey Collin,

      Praise God the article was a blessing to you. I’m glad it’s changing your thoughts on the Rapture. Regarding the Antichrist, I think it’s possible that the church may know who the person is, but he will not have ascended to his Biblical role until after the Rapture.

      I believe all born again Christians will be raptured but during he Great Tribulation, people will come to saving faith in Christ. As for Revelation 9:4, the servants who have the seal of God are the 144,000 (see Revelation 7:3, where they are sealed in their foreheads). These men will be on Earth during the Great Tribulation witnessing the Gospel and will certainly be influential to win people to Christ. When the world sees them not suffering from the punishments of God (including that fallen angelic/demonic army from the abyss) it will be clear that The Lord is with them.

      If you have any other questions, just let me know. God bless you abundantly.

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      • Awesome, wow, like I said ya’ ll are so well versed on scripture, after reading what you suggested, it makes more sense now than ever before. Thank you so much B&E, God bless you for the information you have posted.I even got my mom reading your blogs, Its so awesome. Keep doing what you are doing and lets help spread any info on Christ and the word to all people of all races and creeds. You my friend are truly a blessing sir. Thanks again.

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  3. DoUwant2go2heaven? says:

    Blessings to you my friend. This is another interesting article that you have written. There are many points that you made which are very edifying and I praise God for that. But after reading this breakdown there are still 4 things that pop into my mind, which aren’t addressed in your write up.

    1. How do you reconcile the first 4 seals? According to the prophecy 1/4 of the worlds population is going to die by the sword, hunger, disease, and the beasts of the earth (Revelation 6:8). These are catasrophic judgments that haven’t happened yet. If your timeline is correct, your saying that the rapture will not happen until after 1/4 of the worlds population is killed correct?

    2. Where is fall of Babylon the Great in your timeline? If this wasn’t an important event why would both the OT and NT contain the longest single prophecy about Babylon? (Jeremiah 50-51 and Revelation 17-18). Also what is the purpose of God calling His people out of Babylon the Great? 9 times in Jeremiah 50-51 the LORD calls his people to come out of Babylon. The call is again repeated in Revelation 18:4. Who is God referring to when He says “My people”?

    3. Where is the wilderness deliverance of Revelation 12 in your timeline? Can the place of saftey, which God clearly outlines in that chapter, be the place of hiding in the end-times? It’s in plain black and white on the pages of scripture. There is no debating that there will be a place of safety in the last days, which is the wilderness. God will provide a place of shelter from the face of the serpent, for those who follow His instructions. That is why Jesus Christ gave specfic instrustions for those who would be in Judea when the abomination of desolation happened (Matthew 24:15-28).

    4. Finally I have yet to hear an adequate explaination for 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. The apostle Paul tells us not to be deceived (v.3) about the coming of the LORD Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him because 2 things must happen before that day comes.
    1. The falling away
    2. The man of sin being revealed.

    So my question is how can this be reconciled with everything that you posted? In your timeline do these 2 things happen? Because all scripture must agree. Not just bits and pieces. But all.

    I would just like to get some more revelation my friend. I love reading your articles because they truly are edifying. But that is why the LORD has given the body of Christ the Holy Spirit, so that we can take the truth that He reveals to the church and come to an agreement.

    I firmly believe that the fall of Babylon the Great is a major end-time event. I believe it actually is the beginning of the end as Revelation 14 tells us. That chapter gives us the 3 major events of the endtime with the 3 angel messages. Read Matthew 24:14 and Revelation 14:6-7. After reading that, read the next verse in Revelation 14. The end comes with the Fall of Babylon, that is why God repeadtely tells His people to come out of her before that day comes. That is the sudden destruction that comes upon an unspecting world. It will be an all out sneak attack with nuclear bombs on the united states of America aka Babylon the Great.

    I mean there is a lot more, but I believe that we can continue to build in order to come to a right understanding of the prophetic scriptures. Because just like God said and you quoted, Surely the LORD GOD will do nothing, but He revealeth His secrets unto His servants the prophets! May the LORD continue to pour out His secrets upon His church for His glory and our edification. Amen.

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    • DU2GH,

      Great to hear from you! Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. As usual, you ask some very good questions so I will try to address them in short order:

      1. The first 4 seals (and really the first 5) are tribulations experienced throughout the church age. Regarding Rev 6:8, that spirit being is given “power over the fourth part of the Earth”, in other words, it has distinct authority to afflict a 1/4 of the Earth with pestillence, disease and death. This is not the same as saying it will kill 1/4 of the earth. We see that language in Revelation 9, with reference to the 6th trumpet judgment:

      By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

      I hope the distinction is clear. Not to mention, the Lord Jesus assures that the early seals are before the end times. Also, today we will be publishing an article on the “Four Horsemen of The Apocalypse” which I think will give even more detail on this.

      2. Babylon The Great — The article is not a timeline. It’s just explaining the rapture. I know it would seem logical to have a timeline, but this was already a very long article so that will be saved for a separate article altogether. But of course, the destruction of Mystery Babylon is a major part of the end times. It just comes after the rapture and thus was not germane to this specific topic.

      3. Wilderness Deliverance — See above. I do believe in the wilderness deliverance at the midpoint of the 70th week of Daniel. But again, this takes place years after the Rapture and so it was not necessary to discuss it in this article.

      4. 2 Thessalonians 2 – Another great question. And we have an article coming out this week that addresses this passage. I’ll give you an early preview:

      Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

      In many, many articles and sermons on this passage, the phrase “Day of Christ” is glossed over and it is assumed that verse 3 is referring to “our gathering” to Jesus Christ. But it is our contention that “that day” in verse 3 is referring to the “Day of Christ.” Now what is that you may ask? My suggestion is to do a phrase search on “Day of Christ” in Scripture and you may see that it is a distinct event that is NOT the rapture. Also remember the context. The Thessalonian church thought they were at that time experiencing the Day of The Lord. Paul is writing to tell them that they are not and reassure them that they would not experience it. If it was something they could have possibly experienced in the future, why would Paul tell them to “comfort one another” knowing that it could be just around the corner? Just something to consider.

      Thanks again for commenting and more thought-provoking questions. God bless!

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      • Paul is clearly linking the “gathering” or rapture and the 2nd coming of Christ together as in 1 Cor 15:23. The purpose of the passage is to insist anyone who suggests otherwise is deceiving you. Further, four times in John 6 Jesus pins the resurrection to the last day, which harmonizes perfectly with Rev 20:5, the first resurrection, after the tribulation, which again harmonizes with Christ in Matthew 24. John 11:24: Lazarus will rise in the resurrection at the last day, the 2nd Coming, obviously. The last day is the last day, not 7 yrs before the last day.

        1 Cor 15:54 death is swallowed up in victory at the rapture. How can death be swallowed up in victory just prior to a bloodbath? Paul is quoting Isaiah 25:8, a post-trib timeline following Isaiah 24: 23, the moon blood and sun darkened etc as in Matt 24. Compare this same verse in Rev 7:17 For the lamb shall feed “them”, the multitude of verse 9, which is after Rev 6:12-17 the 2nd Coming. Clearly the multitude are the raptured and resurrected Church.

        Go back to The Day of the Lord which comes as a thief in 1 Thess 5. Pre-tribbers have an inescapable paradox. Scripture is consistent: the Day of the Lord comes after the sun and moon are darkened (Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20 etc). According to Christ the sun is darkened and moon becomes blood after the tribulation. Therefore the Day of the Lord is after the tribulation. Confirmation is found in Rev 16:15 “BEHOLD I COME AS A THIEF.” This is as the 6th bowl is being poured out near the end of the tribulation and Jesus STILL HAS NOT COME AS A THIEF! Are you suggesting Jesus comes as a thief twice? But then of course pre-tribbers insist there are 2 of everything: 2 resurrections of the dead in Christ, 2 last days, 2 returns of Christ, 2 gatherings etc, etc, all for the convenience of sparing the Church from the tribulation.

        Watch for the Day of the Lord, says Paul. When you see these things begin to come to pass, says Jesus, look up for your redemption draweth nigh (Luke 21). Look for what? His appearing, his 2nd Coming.

        The evidence for a post-trib unified resurrection/rapture/2nd Coming is overwhelming, you can prove it a hundred different ways and it all fits together beautifully. Pre-trib doctrine just takes scripture and stretches it and bends it into all kinds of convoluted and distorted shapes with outrageous assumptions to make it fit. Square pegs into round holes and there are contradictions all over the place, not to mention that Jesus didn’t even mention a pre-trib rapture or indeed the Bible itself. ANYWHERE! Quite an oversight. Was Jesus seeking to deceive us? Does God really leave us scratching our heads over such an important doctrine, piecing together clues and hints in order to draw conclusions? But God is not the author of confusion.

        Or is there something else at work. Strong delusion, for instance, a refusal to endure sound doctrine?

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        • Hi Carl,

          Thanks for your comments. I would like to start off with your last sentence and ask a question:

          “Or is there something else at work. Strong delusion, for instance, a refusal to endure sound doctrine? “

          Is this really your thought after reading this article? I respect your view, but if that is the case you should be responding by teaching sound doctrine, correct? I just hope we can have a civil discourse on this subject, Lord willing.

          “Go back to The Day of the Lord which comes as a thief in 1 Thess 5. Pre-tribbers have an inescapable paradox. Scripture is consistent: the Day of the Lord comes after the sun and moon are darkened (Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20 etc). According to Christ the sun is darkened and moon becomes blood after the tribulation. Therefore the Day of the Lord is after the tribulation.”

          Joel 2:31: “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.”

          Acts 2:20: “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:”

          Here is Jesus’ quote regarding the stellar signs that precede the Rapture:

          “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

          As shown in our article on the Day of The Lord. The aforementioned signs only occur ONCE in Scripture: at the 6th Seal of Revelation 6:

          ” And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” – Revelation 6.

          In this passage we see the sun tunring black and the moon turning to blood. The stars fall from Heaven as well. This is the start of the Day of The Lord. The post-trib model fails at this point alone, because in that model that Day of The Lord and the Second Coming of Christ are the same event. This is not possible and is refuted by Scripture repeatedly, the aforementioned passages being an example. Here is another example:

          ” Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. 11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.
          12 For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:…17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. 18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish. 19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; 21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. 22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?” – Isaiah 2

          Notice that this passage is describing the Day of The Lord, the Biblical name for the end times pouring out of God’s wrath (the term “tribulation” is a common noun, not a proper noun in Scripture and thus is really not a Biblical name for the end times). And what is happening at the start of the Day of The Lord? There is a massive global earthquake that sends all people running and hiding. And the passage from Isaiah specifically describes the most powerful people in society running into caves and holes in the ground out of fear. This is precisely what is described at the 6th Seal of Revelation.

          “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

          Notice both the Revelation 6 passage and the isaiah 2 passage end with a question, one from God’s perspective and one from man’s. But both making the same point: that man is utterly futile and helpless in the face of God’s wrath. Thus it is clear from multiple passages that the 6th Seal is the start of the Day of The Lord and fulfillment of Isaiah 2’s prophecy. This point alone refutes any rapture model that states “the Day of the Lord and the Second Coming of Christ are the same event” because the Second Coming does not happen until 13 chapters later.

          I am happy to discuss this but I hope we can do so in a spirit of love and edification using Scripture and not just making assertions (i.e., “The evidence for a post-trib unified resurrection/rapture/2nd Coming is overwhelming, you can prove it a hundred different ways and it all fits together beautifully”). For some reason the Rapture tends to bring out a strong reaction among brothers and sisters in the faith but at the end of the day we are all trying to achieve the same goal: to rightly divide Scripture. I look forward to your response.

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          • You see again this is precisely my point. The 2nd Coming doesn’t occur till 13 chapters later, you say. Even the most basic overview of Revelation demonstrates emphatically that there are multiple viewpoints of the same events described from different perspectives, just like the books of Chronicles and Kings, for example. This is so obvious that even most pre-tribbers accept that.

            Jesus said, After the tribulation. Pre-tribbers say, Not so, before the tribulation. Jesus said the Resurrection occurs on the last day. Pretribbers say, Not so, 7 years before the last day. The Bible teaches the rapture occurs at the last trump. Pre-tribbers say, Not so, the last trump is followed by the next trump and so on. The Bible teaches the 1st resurrection occurs after the tribulation (Rev 20:6). Pre-tribbers say, Not so, there is another resurrection before the 1st resurrection (of the dead in Christ). Jesus states in Matthew 13 that the harvest of believers and unbelievers occur together at the end of the world. Pre-tribbers say, Not so, the harvest of believers come first years beforehand. On and on it goes and there is no end to it.

            If the Church was to be raptured before the tribulation you can be sure Jesus would have given explicit details in his Olivet Discourse. Paul would have stated this absolutely without ambiguity. The idea that the Bible would present a pre-trib rapture through subtle hints and clues is ridiculous.

            A simple 2nd Coming/rapture/resurrection is all that is required to slot everything into place.
            Unless, I say again and make no apologies, you are delusional.

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            • Hey Carl,

              Thanks again for your comment. I will try to repeat my point to you on dividing Scripture:

              “Even the most basic overview of Revelation demonstrates emphatically that there are multiple viewpoints of the same events described from different perspectives, just like the books of Chronicles and Kings, for example. This is so obvious that even most pre-tribbers accept that.”

              I don’t accept that statement. I completely disagree with the view that Revelation’s events are being retold several different times. But more importantly, can you prove this assertion you are making from Scripture?

              “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15).

              If you are going to make a very bold assertion like the one above, you should be able to show this to be true by providing Scripture with the appropriate interpretation. This is the standard from Scripture. So if this is the case with respect to Revelation, please demonstrate it through Scripture. Otherwise, you are just giving your own opinion and not a theological argument.

              “Jesus said, After the tribulation. Pre-tribbers say, Not so, before the tribulation. Jesus said the Resurrection occurs on the last day. Pretribbers say, Not so, 7 years before the last day. The Bible teaches the rapture occurs at the last trump. Pre-tribbers say, Not so, the last trump is followed by the next trump and so on. The Bible teaches the 1st resurrection occurs after the tribulation (Rev 20:6). Pre-tribbers say, Not so, there is another resurrection before the 1st resurrection (of the dead in Christ). Jesus states in Matthew 13 that the harvest of believers and unbelievers occur together at the end of the world. Pre-tribbers say, Not so, the harvest of believers come first years beforehand. On and on it goes and there is no end to it.”

              I cannot speak for pre-tribbers or for anyone beyond this small ministry. And I do not even believe the pre-trib Rapture model is correct. So as such, I am not going to take the time to defend positions others have said to you. If there are points in this article or the Rapture series that you believe have been misapplied or wrongly interpreted, please by all means, point them out and what you feel is the correct application. I will be glad to respond.

              “If the Church was to be raptured before the tribulation you can be sure Jesus would have given explicit details in his Olivet Discourse. Paul would have stated this absolutely without ambiguity. The idea that the Bible would present a pre-trib rapture through subtle hints and clues is ridiculous.”

              Again, these are just your opinions. This is what Scripture says:

              “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” - Proverbs 25:2.

              Prophetic Scripture is actually not easy to understand. It takes time and study to properly divide. but again, if I am wrong, just show me by Scripture. I am always open to Biblical correction.

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            • c phillip says:

              The Day of the LORD is a 7 year period. When you understand that it brings perspective to your confusion.
              Jesus is coming twice , ” at the beginning of the day of the Lord” for the bride
              and at the end of the day of the LORD. to set up HIS kingdom. Jesus want you to study HIS word not just read over it, plus your enemy knows the bible but he doesn’t have the HOLY SPIRIT.
              He is coming in the clouds at first , then to defeat the army of this world.

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        • Great response Carl, I am also perplexed as to how Jesus will “rapture” before tribulations without returning!?

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  4. Hi, B&E, A thought just hit me today as I was musing over the many aspects of end time prophecies that you have so wonderfully enlightened me and my fellow website followers to. In Matt 24:37 Jesus states that “as it was in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be”. Then in verse 38, He states that “people were eating and drinking, MARRYING AND GIVING IN MARRIAGE”. Of course, thanks to your informative lessons, we’re all pretty familiar with the text of Gen. 6:1-4, which tells us “what it was like” during the “days of Noah”. The “marriages” described here were the perversion of fallen angels having sexual relations with human females and producing the “Nephilim” offspring, who grew into “mighty men of old, men of renown”. Then in Jude verses 6 and 7, our attention is once again directed to the “angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode” , that they were being punished severely for their transgression (which we interpret as having sexual unions with human females) and then that Sodom and Gomorrah “IN THE SAME WAY AS THESE …. are exhibited as example in undergoing punishment of eternal fire”. Of course, we are all also familiar with the predominant sin that Sodom and Gomorrah were known for – sexual perversion, with an emphasis on homosexuality. I thought it was noteworthy that in Matt 24, Jesus mentions that in the days of Noah, they were marrying and giving in marriage. And although the “life going on as usual” can very well fit in this narrative, I am also thinking about how much of a hot button the issue of traditional vs same sex marriage is in our present day. It seems to me that Jesus may have been speaking of the marriages of Noah’s day in an evil connotation and we all know that the Bible in no way condemns TRADITIONAL marriage. Quite to the contrary, Heb. 13:4 states: “Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; but (for) fornicators and adulterers God will judge.” (NASB) By the way, the book of Enoch (which is quoted from verbatim in Jude 14 and 15) expands very much on what we glean from Genesis about these UNholy matrimonies of fallen angels with humans. Although the current translation of this literary work that’s available to us English speakers should not be regarded with the same inspirational authority as the Holy Scripture, I find it hard to conceive that it was “just a book of fables” if Jude (whose letter is almost universally accepted as Divinely inspired among today’s Christian community) was quoting prose directly from its text. Could our Lord have possibly been making a prophetic reference to the vapid and militant homosexual movement of this day that is aggressively attempting to smash all dissident views to its own?

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  5. Hi, its Gabe from the Horsemen article. :D

    Okay, a few things I still need help clearing up. You asserted that 2 Thess 2 does not pertain to the rapture and that “gathering unto him” refers to something else? What does it refer to? Church gatherings?

    What is clear is that the antichrist does come before Christ’s return. But I think it is hard to dismiss the idea that 2 Thess 2 verse 1 is not about both Return and Rapture. They occur one immediately before the other.

    You suggested that Paul believed they would not endure the Tribulation. Where do you see this? You seemed to refer to 1 Thess 4 where Paul says “comfort each other” as though it meant he did not believe the Saints would endure the 7 year tribulation. How do you arrive at this.

    Paul is not aware of the Prophecy of Revelation at the time of the writing to the Thessalonians. Thessalonians 1 makes one thing clear. The return of the Lord precedes the rapture of the Saints.

    2 Thessalonians 2 makes a second thing clear. The arrival of the antichrist and the abomination of desoolation precede the the return of the Lord.

    Paul was intimately knowledgeable of the Prophets and Daniel, he obviously understood these two things. So even if 2 Thessalonians 2:1 does not concern the rapture when speaking of gathering it makes no difference. 1st is Antichrist, 2nd is Christ, 3rd is Rapture, 4th is wrath.

    There are a few things that have to be considered here. There is some mystery that the Bible speaks about. First of all, how do we know that the Rapture is instantaneous around the world at the same instant? It could be argued that Jesus must arrive on earth and travel around the world rapturing the Saints in a series of majestic events. How long would this take? Could it take 7 years? Or three and a half?

    It makes no sense for the 144,000 to precede Christ’s return, for one thing, it says in Rev 14 that they return with Christ. Secondly it does not fit the pattern in Scripture which shows us that a forerunner comes first to proclaim the Gospel. There are two forerunners, not 144,000. The 144,000 fit the pattern of disciples, Jesus’ handpicked loyal followers. It further conflicts with the fact of Jesus Christ being the Alpha and “first from the dead”. Christ is the first to be resurrected into eternal life, it does not seem to fit that his subordinates would precede him. The sealing occurs in Rev 7, however, they do not arrive on earth prior to Christ if one follows Rev 7 -14 in a chronological fashion anyway.

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    • Hey Gabriel,

      Thanks for coming over to this discussion as well. I will try to brief in my comments on your points.

      1. 2 Thessalonians 2 - What’s going on here?? lol. With all due respect, you misquoted me. I did not say that the “gathering is not the rapture.” I said the “Day of Christ” (which I put in bold font) is not the Rapture. Have you studied the “Day of Christ” in Scripture? I made the suggestion because we have an article coming out on this very verse. And my point is that verse 3, makes a reference to “that day” meaning the Day of Christ. I hope that makes sense.

      2. Verse 1 = rapture + return
      - I agree, but they are not the same event.

      3. “Comfort one another” – This phrase is said at the end 2 Thessalonians 2. I would again suggest studying this chapter and its greater context to see why Paul would say this at the every end. Especially if you think that Paul is telling them they are going to endure the worst judgments and cataclysmic disasters of God that this world has ever seen. That is not every comforting!

      4. The antichrist and Abomination precede the Rapture – I respectfully disagree. I think the reason for this thinking is a misunderstanding of verse 3 that has been taught in many churches, sermons and prophecy articles.

      5. The 144,000 are witnesses of the Gospel on the Earth. The scene in Revelation 14 takes place on Mt. Sion which is Heaven (see Hebrews 12 for more on this). We know from Revelation 9:4 that when the world is being tormented by fallen angelic/demonic hordes the 144,000 will be immune from their attack. So they are indeed on Earth before the Second Coming.

      Thanks again for your thoughts. I offer these points just for consideration. God bless.

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      • You have given me a lot to think about.

        First off, you did not accound for 1 Thess 4. It also appears you have misplaced the phrase from the end of 1Thess 4 to the end of 2Thess 2. (although the word comfort is used in both)

        I cannot seem to follow your logic conerning 2 Thess. Y ou are not denying that The Day of Christ and the Rapture (gathering) are mentioned in the same sentence, yet you are claiming that they are disconnected by 7 years, and you place the rapture before the return of Christ on grounds that it would be discouraging.

        [quote]16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.[/quote] I simply don’t see how Paul’s encouragment is diminished by the idea that we are raptured immediately upon Christ’s return. Anyone who believed they had missed the return of Christ would be discouraged already. Paul counted suffering a joy for the sake of Christ, we should expect the same if we are true to Jesus Christ.

        I believe it is Pauls foregone conclusion that we will suffer at the hands of men (not God) prior to Jesus’ return. (I don’t claim that God’s wrath comes on believers I believe the rapture occurs before the 7 bowls of wrath) But I think it is clear that Paul’s message was still conforting in that he was assuring them of their ultimate salvation.

        In conclusing, and thanks for haning with me…..In all places the Return of Christ is mentioned it is done in tandem with (intimately with) the gathering. It seems utterly clear that our gathering to Christ is dependent upon his return, that is, it [b]must precede the rapture[/b].

        [u]Matt 24:30[/u]
        Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

        [b] 1Thess 4:15 [/b]
        For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

        [b]1. 2Thess 2:1 [/b]
        Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him

        The evidence for a Rev 6 rapture seems anecdotal primarily for the reasons above, and secondly for the fact that the words “come out” of the great tribulation does not tell us anything about how they came out. Did they die? Were they martyrs? All we know about them is that they have white robes like the martyrs, they are before the throne rather than under the alter. I don’t see a good reason to assume that they have not died.

        Lastly, for your consideration, although I am not certain of what the Trumpets really are, I feel that the activities described on the earth as a result of the trumpets are symbolic in the same way as the Seals. The 4 horsemen are not visible on earth but the effects are, so what will the manifest effects of the demon locusts be?

        One last thing, at the conclusion of the 7th trumpet, the reaper reaps from the earth – Rev 14:16. How is this not a symbol for the rapture?

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  6. Okay, I studied a bit more. I see the 1st Thessalonians verses a bit differently. I just still don’t see how it shows that there is a 7 year gap between Christ’s “appearnce” and rapture and his Second Coming.

    It appears that Paul puts all this things in immediate progression. Antichrist revealed, Christ appears, rapture, > day of the Lord. There is simply no evidence in Thessalonians to support a Revelation 6 Rapture.

    One final question that I do think puts a dent in your rendering here. How can the Lamb proclaim the judgements within the book unless all seven seals are first broken?

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    • Hi Gabriel – Are we still talking about 2 Thessalonians? If so, then again, I encourage you to study “the Day of Christ” all through the New testament. Or just wait for our article. lol.

      In any event, it is my contention that Paul is giving a different order. Remember, Paul says the Day of The Lord comes as a “thief in the night.” If the Day of The Lord was after the Antichrist and the rapture, who would be surprised? Who would be caught off guard? No one. Again, you have to look at the greater context of 2 Thessalonians to understand the point Paul is trying to make.

      You also said: “How can the Lamb proclaim the judgements within the book unless all seven seals are first broken? ”

      I don’t understand the question. What verses are you referring to?

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      • In studying the “Day of Christ” and the Day of the Lord in the New Testament I get lost because Paul uses Lord and Christ interchangeably. “There is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.” In the Old Testament the Day of the Lord is a formal occurance. But Paul also seems to use the day of the Christ in a general sense as with Philipians 1:6.

        We will probably go in ciricles on the issue of Thessalonians because I am not disputing that the last thing to occur is the Day of the Lord. I think the trouble is the length of time and the start of the rapture, not the end. We all agree that the day of the Lord involves the final battle of Revelation where Jesus destroys the Antichrist, and Babylon and the birds have a great feast.

        But the Day of the Lord is also tied to the Rapture. So how can can Jesus come as a thief in this situation if 7 years are in between? Jesus coming as thief also applies to the wicked as well, in fact i really applies moreso.

        But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

        But if the Saints are raptured and the Antichrist is not destroyed until 7 years later, then that is certainly not a surprise either. How can only one group be suprised? We are in a paradox. (And we have Jesus coming back two times in your scenario). His “appearance” and his “coming” really are not separate events, that is really mincing words and just seems inconsistent on the face of it.

        So it is sort of a paradox. No matter what we say, if there is 7 years of Tribulation, the end is certainly no suprise to anyone, Saint or not. What if the Rapture is an ongoing process of 7 years? This would resolve all paradoxes. Might be worth discussing in the forum maybe.

        About the scroll. I still see the Seals as all being opened before the Day of the Lord can begin, the scroll is sealed with 7 Seals, the words of the scroll contain the instructions -it would seem- that unleash the final 7 years trumpet plagues. How can the judgements begin if the scroll is still not opened?

        Chapter 7 of Revelation is part of the 6th Seal and it shows a prelude to the 7’th Seal, and this does not seem to fit at all with a global earthquake, in fact, it seems the oposite. The four angels are holding back the four winds, preventing destruction upon the earth until after the 7th Seal. Why would they do this if the super quake and tsunami had just devastated the earth, that makes no sense at all.

        Additionally, the word earthquake is actually only one way to translate the greek word. I really believe that a storm [tempest] is really the better use of that word, as it was used in Matthew 8. The context of the passage determines if it is a storm, or quake.

        The rapture appears to be an ongoing process during the trumpets, or perhaps even limited to the 7th trumpet.

        7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets

        What could be more mysterious that revealing and rapturing all the Saints living and dead?

        And finally, in the same way as the forshadowings of rapture (Noah, Lot, Israel, Rahab….) portray protection and a last second rapture in the midst of judgment, in the same way we should expect to be witnesses of the final 7 years and raptured right before the final blow.

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  7. Oh, and I noticed the trackbacks and left a comment there as well, okay, thanks again and see you on the forums! Cheers and God Bless.

    PS > Please keep up the great work on the entertainment industry and media garbage and apostacy. These are so important for the church to understand right now.

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  8. Why are you all wasting your time trying to figure this out when the bible says noone will know? How about you write about the importance of being a Christian and what it means and how you should live? Since you DO NOT know with certainty what you are trying to write about. Jesus is coming and we need to be ready. Enough said.

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    • B&E can correct me if I am wrong, but if you look at the verses that says that no one shall know the day nor the hour, and continue to read a few short verses past, it does mention that we may know the Season. Just a thought for all those that say we are to be blind till The Day.

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  9. Thanks for such a clear teaching on the Rapture. I’m always greatly encouraged when thinking of the Rapture. It puts life here on earth in perspective and I’m so thankful for our Lord’s awesome plan! Also gives me urgency to witness to the lost. Shalom!

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  10. Kenneth Acushla says:

    Have you considered that the souls under the altar are not Ecclesia Christians as they have the spirit of VENGEANCE. Ecclesia Saints always have the Spirit of LOVE even when they are persecuted and martyred. Whereas Tribulation Saints are beheaded for not worshipping the Antichrist and there will be millions of them during this period of time who will respond to the 144,000, the Two Witnesses and the Angel of GOD preaching the Everlasting Gospel to all the people of Planet Earth who will still be alive. The Bride of Yahshua will always be filled with the Spirit of LOVE even after death with no thoughts of Vengeance. Those who have died in LOVE in Yahshua will be in Paradise not under the altar. Those who were killed in LOVE have brought about the salvation of those jailers and captors to whom they witnessed. These jailors and captors were saved because of the witness of those who died in LOVE and they responded after their deaths and gave us their testimonies. I myself have been a Ecclesia Christian since I was 8 years old and will have no thoughts of Vengeance if I am martyred. Ecclesia are those who are called out of the world, a people for HIS NAME. We have responded in LOVE and will continue to LOVE our enemies even after death for this is the Spirit of Yahshua, the Spirit of LOVE.

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    • Hi Kenneth,

      Thanks for your comment. I don’t see any Biblical basis for the martyrs under the alter not being born again believers who were killed for their faith. The text is pretty clear. Additionally, I cannot presume to know how others, or I, will see world affairs after they are dead. I am sure the Heavenly perspective is quite different from the Earthly and the desire to see God glorifies and Divine justice served could very well be a lot greater once we are removed from our Earthly flesh.

      You also say: “Those who have died in LOVE in Yahshua will be in Paradise not under the altar. ”

      On what Scripture are you basing this on? If you mean the paradise that the thief on the cross went to, that was emptied after the resurrection:

      But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
      - Ephesians 5:7-8.

      Again, we cannot presume to know the specifics of the Heavenly realm. By God’s grace we are given glimpses into His majesty where we can glean information. But we must take that as doctrine and not run into the risk of adding to Scripture by making assertions that are not stated in the text.

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  11. Christie Kincade says:

    Fabulous series on the end times. Oddly enough, I approached the Word a bit backwards: what caught my interest in the first place was the end times and I studied daily, for a year. After a year of hard-core studying (during which time I ventured into books other than Revelation), I knew I was saved. I was one of the lucky ones who had that “moment of knowing”, 1/19/1984, 11:19 p.m., exactly (my REAL birth day in my mind). Then I spent every free moment for 10 years studying at a collegiate level the book of Revelation, still studying the entire New Testament and a lot of the Old Testament as well (can’t do one without the other and make sense out of things). I am very impressed with this site, with what you are doing and how well you are doing it. I’ve found nothing that I have a question about in this series. I studied under someone who takes every verse back to the Hebrew or Greek to prove the point. So many disbelieving folks out there do not understand that this can be done and that in so doing, the Bible proves that it does not contradict itself, not ever. I am a believer in dispensationalism which, since I’m new to this site, I don’t know where you stand on this but, in my humble opinion, the Bible does not make easy sense to a seeking soul without understanding that God has dealt (and continues to deal) with man in the way he has depending on the dispensation of time during which he is speaking, and, of course, we must always know to WHOM he is speaking. We are the most fortunate to date, living during the dispensation of Grace, and I thank Him every day for his Grace and, of course, for what he accomplished on the Cross of Calvary. I can never think of anything to ask him for in prayer; I can only thank Him and can never thank Him enough. God Bless you and your mission speaking to the people about the end times. It seems that churches don’t like to talk about it and people don’t like to hear about it. At first I thought it was “scary”; now I am THRILLED that I understand what I do. I look forward to learning more through your ministry. There is no end to the education one receives from God’s Word. We could begin on the day we could read and read until the day we go to be with the Lord and still there would be lessons unlearned. Blessed be the Lord for his Unspeakable Gift.

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  12. Stephanie says:

    Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart !

    “church” RAPTURE “church”
    (present age) (tribulation)

    In early 1830 Margaret was the very first one to see a pre-Antichrist (pretrib) rapture in the Bible – and John Walvoord and Hal Lindsey lend support for this claim!
    Walvoord’s “Rapture Question” (1979) says her view resembles the “partial-rapture view” and Lindsey’s “The Rapture” (1983) admits that “she definitely teaches a partial rapture.”
    But there’s more. Lindsey (p. 26) says that partial rapturists see only “spiritual” Christians in the rapture and “unspiritual” ones left behind to endure Antichrist’s trial. And Walvoord (p. 97) calls partial rapturists “pretribulationists”!
    Margaret’s pretrib view was a partial rapture form of it since only those “filled with the Spirit” would be raptured before the revealing of the Antichrist. A few critics, who’ve been repeating more than researching, have noted “Church” in the tribulation section of her account. Since they haven’t known that all partial rapturists see “Church” on earth after their pretrib rapture (see above chart), they’ve wrongly assumed that Margaret was a posttrib!
    In Sep. 1830 Edward Irving’s journal “The Morning Watch” (hereafter: TMW) was the first to publicly reflect her novel view when it saw spiritual “Philadelphia” raptured before “the great tribulation” and unspiritual “Laodicea” left on earth.
    In Dec. 1830 John Darby (the so-called “father of dispensationalism” even though he wasn’t first on any crucial aspect of it!) was still defending the historic posttrib rapture view in the “Christian Herald.”
    Pretrib didn’t spring from a “church/Israel” dichotomy, as many have assumed, but sprang from a “church/church” one, as we’ve seen, and was based only on symbols!
    But innate anti-Jewishness soon appeared. (As noted, TMW in Sep. 1830 saw only less worthy church members left behind.) In Sep. 1832 TMW said that less worthy church members and “Jews” would be left behind. But by Mar. 1833 TMW was sure that only “Jews” would face the Antichrist!
    As late as 1837 the non-dichotomous Darby saw the church “going in with Him to the marriage, to wit, with Jerusalem and the Jews.” And he didn’t clearly teach pretrib until 1839. His basis then was the Rev. 12:5 “man child…caught up” symbol he’d “borrowed” (without giving credit) from Irving who had been the first to use it for the same purpose in 1831!
    For related articles Google “X-Raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by D.M., “Pretrib Rapture Pride,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” and “Scholars Weigh My Research.” The most documented and accurate book on pretrib rapture history is “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books online) – a 300-pager that has hundreds of disarming facts (like the ones above) not found in any other source.

    [I recently came across the fascinating web article above & would like to see any reactions to it.]

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  13. FOR A START I CANNOT REPLY DIRECTLY TO YOUR COMMENT BECAUSE THERE IS NO REPLY ICON. IS THIS INTENTIONAL?

    Beginning and End:
    Hey Carl,

    Thanks again for your comment. I will try to repeat my point to you on dividing Scripture:

    I don’t accept that statement. I completely disagree with the view that Revelation’s events are being retold several different times. But more importantly, can you prove this assertion you are making from Scripture?

    PROOF 1
    REVELATION 14:8 BABYLON IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, THAT GREAT CITY, BECAUSE SHE MADE ALL NATIONS DRINK OF THE WINE OF HER FORNICATION.

    REVELATION 18:2 BABYLON THE GREAT IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, AND IS BECOME THE HABITATION OF DEVILS, AND THE HOLD OF EVERY UNCLEAN SPIRIT, AND A CAGE OF EVERY UNCLEAN AND HATEFUL SPIRIT.

    PROOF 2
    REV 14:20 AND THE WINEPRESS WAS TRODDEN WITHOUT THE CITY . . .
    REV 19:15 AND HE TREADETH THE WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD.

    PROOF 3
    REV 6:14 AND THE HEAVEN DEPARTED AS A SCROLL WHEN IT IS ROLLED TOGETHER; AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND ISLAND WERE MOVED OUT OF THEIR PLACES.

    REV 16:20 AND EVERY ISLAND FLED AWAY, AND THE MOUNTAINS WERE NOT FOUND.

    PROOF 4
    REV 6:17 FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME.

    REV 16:14 TO GATHER THEM TO THE BATTLE OF THAT GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

    PROOF 5
    REV 6:17 HIS WRATH IS COME

    REV 11:18 AND THY WRATH IS COME

    PROOF 6
    REV 9:14 LOOSE THE FOUR ANGELS WHICH ARE BOUND IN THE GREAT RIVER EUPHRATES

    REV 16:12 AND THE SIXTH ANGEL POURED OUT HIS VIAL UPON THE GREAT RIVER EUPHRATES; AND THE WATER THEREOF WAS DRIED UP, THAT THE WAY OF THE KINGS OF THE EAST MIGHT BE PREPARED.

    PROOF 7
    REV 8:5 (7TH SEAL) AND THERE WERE VOICES, AND THUNDERINGS, AND LIGHTNINGS, AND AN EARTHQUAKE.

    REV 11:19 (7TH TRUMPET) AND THERE WERE LIGHTNINGS, AND VOICES, AND THUNDERINGS, AND AN EARTHQUAKE, AND GREAT HAIL

    REV 16:18 (7TH VIAL) AND THERE WERE VOICES, AND THUNDERS, AND LIGHTNINGS; AND THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE . . .

    PROOF 8
    REV 6:12-16 AND THE SUN BECAME BLACK AS SACKLOTH OF HAIR, AND THE MOON BECAME AS BLOOD . . . AND THEY SAID TO THE MOUNTAINS FALL ON US, NAD HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE.

    MATT 24:29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN . . . ETC

    CLEARLY REV 6 IS AFTER THE TRIBULATION, BUT REV 13 AND 14 ARE A VIVID ACCOUNT OF THE TRIBULATION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15).

    If you are going to make a very bold assertion like the one above, you should be able to show this to be true by providing Scripture with the appropriate interpretation. This is the standard from Scripture. So if this is the case with respect to Revelation, please demonstrate it through Scripture. Otherwise, you are just giving your own opinion and not a theological argument.

    I cannot speak for pre-tribbers or for anyone beyond this small ministry. And I do not even believe the pre-trib Rapture model is correct. So as such, I am not going to take the time to defend positions others have said to you. If there are points in this article or the Rapture series that you believe have been misapplied or wrongly interpreted, please by all means, point them out and what you feel is the correct application. I will be glad to respond.

    YOU TEACH THAT THE CHURCH WILL BE RAPTURED BEFORE THE TRIBULATION BUT YOU ARE NOT A PRE-TRIBBER?

    WE’LL LEAVE OTHERS TO MAKE UP THEIR MINDS ABOUT THAT RESPONSE. I HAVE NOTHING MORE TO SAY.

    Again, these are just your opinions. This is what Scripture says:

    “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” - Proverbs 25:2.

    KNOWING THIS FIRST THAT NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION (2 Peter 1:20) IF YOU ARE SUGGESTING GOD WOULD WILLINGLY CONCEAL A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IN SCRIPTURE FOR US TO FIGURE OUT, THEN I’M SORRY YOU ARE MORE THAN DELUSIONAL. THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY THAT GOD WOULD PUT SOULS AT RISK IN THIS WAY. YOU ARE ACCUSING GOD OF SEEKING TO DECEIVE HIS OWN CHILDREN. IT IS SATAN WHO DOES THIS. HE SEEKS TO TWIST, STRETCH AND DISTORT THE PLAIN TEACHING OF SCRIPTURE.

    Prophetic Scripture is actually not easy to understand. It takes time and study to properly divide. but again, if I am wrong, just show me by Scripture. I am always open to Biblical correction.

      (Quote)

    • Hi Carl,

      Thanks for your response. I want to go through all your proofs.

      PROOF 1
      REVELATION 14:8 BABYLON IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, THAT GREAT CITY, BECAUSE SHE MADE ALL NATIONS DRINK OF THE WINE OF HER FORNICATION.

      REVELATION 18:2 BABYLON THE GREAT IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, AND IS BECOME THE HABITATION OF DEVILS, AND THE HOLD OF EVERY UNCLEAN SPIRIT, AND A CAGE OF EVERY UNCLEAN AND HATEFUL SPIRIT.

      I think the recurring issue with this method of Bible interpretation that you are using is that you are providing scripture with no context and no explanation of how they relate. Similarity does not equal sameness. This is a very, very important principle to remember when studying Scripture. Look at the feasts of the Lord or the many sacrifices in the book of Leviticus. While they are similar, they are not the same. Each have individual purpose. This principle is especially true in the book of Revelation.

      Looking at the context of Revelation 14 from your first Proof, we are seeing a scene in Heaven at the time the Antichrist has fully revealed his true, Beast spirit, proclaimed himself god and started persecuting the Jews and the church (which happens 1260 days into the final 7 years before the Second Coming). The angel in verse 8 is proclaiming that the “great city” has now fallen because it is leading the world into spiritual fornication. It is a moral and sinful falling being described. Babylon the Great (also known as Mystery Babylon) is the headquarters of the Antichrist. And this flows with chapter 13, which is devoted to describing the start of the reign of the Antichrist. It’s perfectly in context. So we know it has not been destroyed in Ch. 14. We get even more confirmation in the very next verse.

      “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:” Revelation 14:9-10.

      The simple fact that the angel is warning the people of the world to not take the mark of the beast shows clearly, that the Antichrist is alive, ruling the world and implementing his system of global control via the Mark. So IN CONTEXT, the meaning of verse 8 is an observation that the city is now under complete satanic control and the nations of the world are corrupted by being yoked with it. Hence the meaning of “fallen.”

      Revelation 18:2 is describing the state of Babylon The Great/Mystery Babylon after its judgment and destruction. The context is established in Revelation 17:

      “And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:” -Revelation 17:1.

      One of the angels who hold the seven vials, who do not emerge from the temple until AFTER the Seventh trumpet is sounded, shows the Apostle John the fate of Babylon the Great: its destruction. This is the context of this chapter and chapter 18. So the reference to Babylon The Great’s fall is destruction. And now demons inhabit it. It has become their abode in the wake of its destruction. These passages are describing two different events at two very different times. The details are not even the same. So again, similarity does not equal sameness.

      PROOF 2
      REV 14:20 AND THE WINEPRESS WAS TRODDEN WITHOUT THE CITY . . .
      REV 19:15 AND HE TREADETH THE WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD.

      Ok given what we know about Revelation 14 from the explanation above, we know this chapter is describing events when the Antichrist’s kingdom is in full swing. Notice the tense in Rev14:20 the winepress “Was trodden” as in they witnessed it being trod. The event has taken place in the scene being shown to John. The blood is flowing (as we know from the end of the chapter which says same). This is the harvest of the righteous who are killed under the Beast system. How can we know this? Again, from the context of the chapter:

      “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.” -Revelation 14:13. So this is clearly during the beginning of the reign of the Antichrist when people are now being told to take the mark of the beast under penalty of death.

      Revelation 19 is describing Jesus Christ The Lord. When it says “He treadeth the winepress” it is speaking as an attribute of Jesus Christ, i.e., “He is the one with the authority to tread the winepress of the wrath of almighty God.” And obviously this is all taking place at the start of the battle of Armageddon. So this is clearly at the end of the Antichrist’s reign, not the start. Again, two different events, totally different details and two different time periods. Similarity does not equal sameness.

      PROOF 3
      REV 6:14 AND THE HEAVEN DEPARTED AS A SCROLL WHEN IT IS ROLLED TOGETHER; AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND ISLAND WERE MOVED OUT OF THEIR PLACES.
      REV 16:20 AND EVERY ISLAND FLED AWAY, AND THE MOUNTAINS WERE NOT FOUND.

      This example really highlights my point about what I believe is a flaw in your method of interpretation. In Revelation 6, the mountains are moved out of place, but they still exist. The wealthy and powerful speak to the mountains and hide in them (in caves).

      And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

      So the mountains clearly still exist after the earthquake and people are running and hiding in them.

      The Earthquake of Revelation 16 is the most severe earthquake in the history of humanity. The mountains all crumble completely. The verse makes that very clear. So there is no way this could be describing the same event from different perspectives.

      PROOF 4
      REV 6:17 FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME.
      REV 16:14 TO GATHER THEM TO THE BATTLE OF THAT GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

      I don’t even get how this is “the same event.”

      PROOF 6
      REV 9:14 LOOSE THE FOUR ANGELS WHICH ARE BOUND IN THE GREAT RIVER EUPHRATES
      REV 16:12 AND THE SIXTH ANGEL POURED OUT HIS VIAL UPON THE GREAT RIVER EUPHRATES; AND THE WATER THEREOF WAS DRIED UP, THAT THE WAY OF THE KINGS OF THE EAST MIGHT BE PREPARED.

      This is really more of the same reasoning. In Revelation 9, four angels who have been imprisoned in the river euphrates are released to lead a demonic army in slaying 1/3 of the human population. This is abundantly clear from the context of the passage.

      In Revelation 16, a holy angel, one of the seven who come out of the Hevaenly temple, pours a vial on the euphrates to dry it up. How is this “the same event”?? The details are so dramatically different it does not even make sense to say “this is the exact same event being told over again.”


      PROOF 7
      REV 8:5 (7TH SEAL) AND THERE WERE VOICES, AND THUNDERINGS, AND LIGHTNINGS, AND AN EARTHQUAKE.
      REV 11:19 (7TH TRUMPET) AND THERE WERE LIGHTNINGS, AND VOICES, AND THUNDERINGS, AND AN EARTHQUAKE, AND GREAT HAIL
      REV 16:18 (7TH VIAL) AND THERE WERE VOICES, AND THUNDERS, AND LIGHTNINGS; AND THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE . . .

      This unfortunately shows that you are not reading the text of Revelation carefully.

      The trumpets are not even given to the seven angels until the 7th seal has been opened:

      “And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.” – Revelation 8:1-2.

      Similarly, the angels with the vials do not emerge until the 7th trumpet has been sounded.

      “15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

      2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.” – Revelation 15:1-2.

      God in His grace, is going out of His way to show us that without question, these events are sequential. It is only by blatantly altering the text and ignoring clear scripture that you can say the seals, trumpets and vials are all the same.

      On top of that, the 7 seals are opened by Jesus. The 7th trumpet and 7th vial are handled by angels, not Jesus. So there again, is no way these could be the same event, described over and over and over again. We have no warrant to rearrange the Bible, move chapters around and ignore the numbered order God has set up in Revelation. Do we do this in any other book in Scripture? Never. Revelation is no different.

      PROOF 8
      REV 6:12-16 AND THE SUN BECAME BLACK AS SACKLOTH OF HAIR, AND THE MOON BECAME AS BLOOD . . . AND THEY SAID TO THE MOUNTAINS FALL ON US, NAD HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE.
      MATT 24:29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN . . . ETC
      CLEARLY REV 6 IS AFTER THE TRIBULATION, BUT REV 13 AND 14 ARE A VIVID ACCOUNT OF THE TRIBULATION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      You are still trying to put forth the idea that “the tribulation” is a proper noun or title in Scripture. It’s not. Jesus says “the tribulation of those days” referring to the church age. I have already shown that the signs Jesus describes in Matthew 24:29 only take place at the 6th seal. And since we know that the seals, trumpets and vials are in sequence, that is the start of the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation. For more on this, see our article on the Day of The Lord.

      “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” – Proverbs 25:2.
      KNOWING THIS FIRST THAT NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION (2 Peter 1:20) IF YOU ARE SUGGESTING GOD WOULD WILLINGLY CONCEAL A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IN SCRIPTURE FOR US TO FIGURE OUT, THEN I’M SORRY YOU ARE MORE THAN DELUSIONAL.

      Then what does God mean in Proverbs 25:2?? What is your interpretation? Again, if you have Biblical explanations to offer, please do.

      A “private interpretation” is interpreting Scripture based on things not in the Bible. So I don’t know if that verse is relevant to this discussion.

      I have seen many people make the same interpretations you are making and I humbly submit is because the verses are not being used in their proper context. The post-tribulation model is an incredibly flawed rapture model under Biblical scrutiny and I definitely think it has no Biblical support.

        (Quote)

      • Beginning and End:
        Hi Carl,

        Thanks for your response. I want to go through all your proofs.

        I think the recurring issue with this method of Bible interpretation that you are using is that you are providing scripture with no context and no explanation of how they relate. Similarity does not equal sameness. This is a very, very important principle to remember when studying Scripture. Look at the feasts of the Lord or the many sacrifices in the book of Leviticus. While they are similar, they are not the same. Each have individual purpose. This principle is especially true in the book of Revelation.

        Looking at the context of Revelation 14 from your first Proof, we are seeing a scene in Heaven at the time the Antichrist has fully revealed his true, Beast spirit, proclaimed himself god and started persecuting the Jews and the church (which happens 1260 days into the final 7 years before the Second Coming). The angel in verse 8 is proclaiming that the “great city” has now fallen because it is leading the world into spiritual fornication. It is a moral and sinful falling being described. Babylon the Great (also known as Mystery Babylon) is the headquarters of the Antichrist. And this flows with chapter 13, which is devoted to describing the start of the reign of the Antichrist. It’s perfectly in context. So we know it has not been destroyed in Ch. 14. We get even more confirmation in the very next verse.

        “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:” Revelation 14:9-10.

        The simple fact that the angel is warning the people of the world to not take the mark of the beast shows clearly, that the Antichrist is alive, ruling the world and implementing his system of global control via the Mark. So IN CONTEXT, the meaning of verse 8 is an observation that the city is now under complete satanic control and the nations of the world are corrupted by being yoked with it. Hence the meaning of “fallen.”

        Revelation 18:2 is describing the state of Babylon The Great/Mystery Babylon after its judgment and destruction. The context is established in Revelation 17:

        I’M SORRY BUT YOUR STATEMENT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. REV 14 AND 18 ARE PERFECTLY CONSISTENT WITH EACH OTHER. IF BABYLON IS DESTROYED AT REV 18:2 WHY DOES GOD URGE HIS PEOPLE TO “COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, THAT YE BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS, AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES?” 2 VERSES LATER? REV 18:8 “THEREFORE SHALL HER PLAGUES COME IN ONE DAY . . .” IT DOES NOT SAY “THEREFORE DID HER PLAGUES COME . . .” PAST TENSE. AGAIN REV 18:21 “THUS WITH VIOLENCE SHALL THAT GREAT CITY BABYLON BE THROWN DOWN . . .” FUTURE TENSE! AGAIN REV 18:23 “AND THE LIGHT OF A CANDLE SHALL SHINE NO MORE AT ALL IN THEE . . .”

        A PROPHECY OF BABYLON’S FUTURE DESTRUCTION.

        YOUR ARGUMENT IS ACTUALLY FURTHER CONCLUSIVE PROOF THAT THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS SIMPLY NOT IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER.

        “And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:” -Revelation 17:1.

        REVELATION 17 DESCRIBES THE JUDGEMENT OF THE WHORE, EXECUTED BY THE BEAST (REV 17:16,17) AND SO THE BEAST RECEIVES HIS KINGDOM “FOR GOD HATH PUT IT IN THEIR HEARTS TO FULFIL HIS WILL, AND TO AGREE, AND GIVE THEIR KINGDOM UNTO THE BEAST, UNTIL THE WORDS OF GOD SHALL BE FULFILLED (VERSE 17). BUT REVELATION 16 IS ALL ABOUT THE JUDGEMENT OF THE BEAST AND HIS KINGDOM!!!! THE LAST 7 VIALS!!! AND THE FIFTH ANGEL POURED OUT HIS VIAL UPON THE SEAT OF THE BEAST; AND HIS KINGDOM WAS FULL OF DARKNESS; AND THEY GNAWED THEIR TONGUES FOR PAIN.

        ONCE AGAIN YOUR ANSWER IS ACTUALLY FURTHER PROOF THAT REVELATION CANNOT POSSIBLY BE IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER.

        One of the angels who hold the seven vials, who do not emerge from the temple until AFTER the Seventh trumpet is sounded, shows the Apostle John the fate of Babylon the Great: its destruction. This is the context of this chapter and chapter 18. So the reference to Babylon The Great’s fallis destruction. And now demons inhabit it. It has become their abode in the wake of its destruction. These passages are describing two different events at two very different times. The details are not even the same. So again, similarity does not equal sameness.

        Ok given what we know about Revelation 14 from the explanation above, we know this chapter is describing events when the Antichrist’s kingdom is in full swing. Notice the tense in Rev14:20 the winepress “Was trodden” as in they witnessed it being trod. The event has taken place in the scene being shown to John. The blood is flowing (as we know from the end of the chapter which says same). This is the harvest of the righteous who are killed under the Beast system. How can we know this? Again, from the context of the chapter:

        “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.” -Revelation 14:13. So this is clearly during the beginning of the reign of the Antichrist when people are now being told to take the mark of the beast under penalty of death.

        Revelation 19 is describing Jesus Christ The Lord. When it says “He treadeth the winepress” it is speaking as an attribute of Jesus Christ, i.e., “He is the one with the authority to tread the winepress of the wrath of almighty God.”And obviously this is all taking place at the start of the battle of Armageddon. So this is clearly at the end of the Antichrist’s reign, not the start. Again, two different events, totally different details and two different time periods. Similarity does not equal sameness.

        This example really highlights my point about what I believe is a flaw in your method of interpretation. In Revelation 6, the mountains are moved out of place, but they still exist. The wealthy and powerful speak to the mountains and hide in them (in caves).

        REALLY? THIS MADE ME LAUGH. TALK ABOUT BEING PEDANTIC! THEY HID THEMSELVES IN THE DENS AND ROCKS OF THE MOUNTAINS (REV 6:15), BUT EVERY ISLAND FLED AWAY AND THE MOUNTAINS WERE NOT FOUND (REV 16:20). COMPARING THE 2 PASSAGES PROVIDES A COMPLETE PICTURE OF THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS. SIMPLE.

        And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

        So the mountains clearly still exist after the earthquake and people are running and hiding in them.

        OR THE MOUNTAINS CRUMBLED AND THEY HID THEMSELVES IN THE DEBRIS THAT WAS LEFT. BUT TO SAY THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE EVENTS. THE MIND BOGGLES.

        The Earthquake of Revelation 16 is the most severe earthquake in the history of humanity. The mountains all crumble completely. The verse makes that very clear. So there is no way this could be describing the same event from different perspectives.

        PROOF 4
        REV 6:17 FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME.
        REV 16:14 TO GATHER THEM TO THE BATTLE OF THAT GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

        I don’t even get how this is “the same event.”

        NO, I SUPPOSE YOU WOULDN’T.

        PROOF 6
        REV 9:14 LOOSE THE FOUR ANGELS WHICH ARE BOUND IN THE GREAT RIVER EUPHRATES
        REV 16:12 AND THE SIXTH ANGEL POURED OUT HIS VIAL UPON THE GREAT RIVER EUPHRATES; AND THE WATER THEREOF WAS DRIED UP, THAT THE WAY OF THE KINGS OF THE EAST MIGHT BE PREPARED.

        This is really more of the same reasoning. In Revelation 9, four angels who have been imprisoned in the river euphrates are released to lead a demonic army in slaying 1/3 of the human population. This is abundantly clear from the context of the passage.

        In Revelation 16, a holy angel, one of the seven who come out of the Hevaenly temple, pours a vial on the euphrates to dry it up. How is this “the same event”?? The details are so dramatically different it does not even make sense to say “this is the exact same event being told over again.”

        IT REALLY IS VERY SIMPLE. HONESTLY, IT IS. AT THE 6TH TRUMPET A WORLD WAR ERUPTS BREAKING OUT FROM THE EUPHRATES (REV 9:14). AT THE 6TH VIAL KINGS ARE DESCRIBED PASSING BY ON THEIR WAY TO WAR (REV 16:12).


        PROOF 7
        REV 8:5 (7TH SEAL) AND THERE WERE VOICES, AND THUNDERINGS, AND LIGHTNINGS, AND AN EARTHQUAKE.
        REV 11:19 (7TH TRUMPET) AND THERE WERE LIGHTNINGS, AND VOICES, AND THUNDERINGS, AND AN EARTHQUAKE, AND GREAT HAIL
        REV 16:18 (7TH VIAL) AND THERE WERE VOICES, AND THUNDERS, AND LIGHTNINGS; AND THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE . . .

        This unfortunately shows that you are not reading the text of Revelation carefully.

        The trumpets are not even given to the seven angels until the 7th seal has been opened:

        “And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.” – Revelation 8:1-2.

        Similarly, the angels with the vials do not emerge until the 7th trumpet has been sounded.

        “15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

        2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.” – Revelation 15:1-2.

        God in His grace, is going out of His way to show us that without question, these events are sequential. It is only by blatantly altering the text and ignoring clear scripture that you can say the seals, trumpets and vials are all the same.

        On top of that, the 7 seals are opened by Jesus. The 7th trumpet and 7th vial are handled by angels, not Jesus. So there again, is no way these could be the same event, described over and over and over again. We have no warrant to rearrange the Bible, move chapters around and ignore the numbered order God has set up in Revelation. Do we do this in any other book in Scripture? Never. Revelation is no different.

        THE ANSWER TO THIS AND THE FOLLOWING ARE BOUND TOGETHER. READ ON!

        PROOF 8
        REV 6:12-16 AND THE SUN BECAME BLACK AS SACKLOTH OF HAIR, AND THE MOON BECAME AS BLOOD . . . AND THEY SAID TO THE MOUNTAINS FALL ON US, NAD HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE.
        MATT 24:29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS SHALL THE SUN BE DARKENED AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL FROM HEAVEN . . . ETC
        CLEARLY REV 6 IS AFTER THE TRIBULATION, BUT REV 13 AND 14 ARE A VIVID ACCOUNT OF THE TRIBULATION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        You are still trying to put forth the idea that “the tribulation” is a proper noun or title in Scripture. It’s not. Jesus says “the tribulation of those days” referring to the church age. I have already shown that the signs Jesus describes in Matthew 24:29 only take place at the 6th seal. And since we know that the seals, trumpets and vials are in sequence, that is the start of the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation. For more on this, see our article on the Day of The Lord.

        SO THEN. YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT RESTS ON THE CONCEPT THAT THE GREAT TRIBULATION IS MERELY “THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS” REFERRING TO THE CHURCH AGE IN GENERAL.

        WHEN IN FACT JESUS SAID SPECIFICALLY IN RESPONSE TO “TELL US, WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE? AND WHAT SHALL BE THE SIGN OF THY COMING, AND OF THE END OF THE WORLD?” (MATT 24:3)

        FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, SUCH AS WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD TO THIS TIME, NO, NOR EVER SHALL BE. AND EXCEPT THOSE DAYS SHOULD BE SHORTENED THERE SHOULD NO FLESH BE SAVED: BUT FOR THE ELECT’S SAKE THOSE DAYS SHOULD BE SHORTENED (MATTHEW 24:21).

        ALMOST NO FLESH SHOULD BE SAVED? IF THAT’S THE CASE THEN, ACCORDING TO YOUR MODEL, ALL THE PLAGUES AND TRUMPETS AND VIALS AND SO ON ARE GOING TO BE POURED OUT ON ABOUT THREE PEOPLE, ALL WHO ARE LEFT!

        IN REALITY, FOR THOSE OF US WHO ARE NOT DELUSIONAL, THIS IS THE TIME OF THE ANTICHRIST. IT MUST BE SO BECAUSE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THOSE DAYS THE SUN AND MOON ARE DARKENED AND JESUS RETURNS TO THE EARTH LIKE A THIEF.

        THE 6TH SEAL AT REV 6:12 CONCLUSIVELY PROVES THAT THE BOOK OF REVELATION CANNOT BE IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER.

        “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” – Proverbs 25:2.
        KNOWING THIS FIRST THAT NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE IS OF ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION (2 Peter 1:20) IF YOU ARE SUGGESTING GOD WOULD WILLINGLY CONCEAL A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IN SCRIPTURE FOR US TO FIGURE OUT, THEN I’M SORRY YOU ARE MORE THAN DELUSIONAL.

        Then what does God mean in Proverbs 25:2?? What is your interpretation?Again, if you have Biblical explanations to offer, please do.

        A “private interpretation” is interpreting Scripture based on things not in the Bible. So I don’t know if that verse is relevant to this discussion.

        I have seen many people make the same interpretations you are making and I humbly submit is because the verses are not being used in their proper context. The post-tribulation model is an incredibly flawed rapture model under Biblical scrutiny and I definitely think it has no Biblical support.

        AND STILL YOU HAVE YET TO EXPLAIN HOW THE RESURRECTION CAN OCCUR ON THE LAST DAY AS JESUS SAID IT WOULD IN JOHN 6, BUT THIS IS 7 YRS BEFORE THE LAST DAY? HOW THE LAST TRUMP OF THE RAPTURE CAN BE FOLLOWED BY THE NEXT TRUMP, AND HOW THE 1ST RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD IN CHRIST AFTER THE TIBULATION AT REV 20:5 CAN BE PRECEDED BY THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD IN CHRIST BEFORE THE TRIBULATION EVEN BEGINS!? HOW JESUS CAN COME AS A THIEF TWICE, OR WHY THE BIBLE OR JESUS HIMSELF NEVER MENTIONED A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE AT ALL. HOW THE COMING OF CHRIST AND OUR GATHERING TO HIM ARE TIED TOGETHER AFTER THE ANTICHRIST APPEARS IN 2 THESS OR THE SAME AT 1 COR 15:23 – ALL PERFECTLY IN HARMONY WITH THE OLIVET DISCOURSE OF MATT 24? OR INDEED THE FACT THAT THE HARVEST OF BELIEVERS AND UNBELIEVERS OCCUR TOGETHER IN MATT 13.

        LET BOTH GROW TOGETHER UNTIL THE HARVEST: AND IN THE TIME OF HARVEST I WILL SAY TO THE REAPERS (DRUM ROLL!), GATHER YE TOGETHER FiRsT ThE tArEs, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn (Matt 13:30).

        FIRST THE TARES EH?

        THE FIELD IS THE WORLD; THE GOOD SEED ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM; BUT THE TARES ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE WICKED ONE; THE ENEMY THAT SOWED THEM IS THE DEVIL; THE HARVEST IS THE END OF THE WORLD; AND THE REAPERS ARE THE ANGELS (MATT 14:38,39).

        JESUS IS COMING TO GATHER HIS ELECT AT THE END OF THE WORLD WHEN HE IS REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS. IF YOU WANT TO BELIEVE JESUS IS COMING TO GATHER THE JEWS ONTO A NICE BIT OF LAND IN ISRAEL BECAUSE THE CHURCH WAS RAPTURED Y 7RS BEFORE THAT EVENT. FINE. SAY HIGH TO THE PENGUINS.

        FOR THE REST OF US ON PLANET EARTH OUTSIDE THE ASYLUM.

        THE TRUTH IS OBVIOUS.

        CHEERS!

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        • Hi Carl, I can see some credence to your arguments as well as those of B & E, but let me just say that I don’t think ANYONE knows EVERYTHING that there is to know about the coming apocalyptical events described in the Holy Scriptures (largely in Daniel and Revelation). Keep in mind that the 12 apostles themselves (ok, 11 – minus Judas Iscariot) were TOTALLY surprised by Christ’s resurrection after His crucifixion and burial. And they had the same Old Testament at their disposal as we have today, plus Jesus plainly and repeatedly telling them beforehand that He must be crucified, killed and raised again on the third day! And of course, I don’t even have to go into how ignorant the so-called “Bible scholar” scribes and Pharisees were of this, not only beforehand, but also after the fact, as they continued to reject Him and deny the fact of His resurrection. So with this in mind, I think there are still MANY details about the coming tribulation that we are all likely to express surprise over once they do actually occur. As Paul stated in 1 Cor. 13:12a “Now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face…”. I believe the closer that we get to that terminal time frame, the more the Scriptures will “open up” to us as more of the pieces of the puzzle begin to “fit together”.

            (Quote)

          • True, we don’t know everything. What we can be absolutely certain about is the timing of the rapture. The scripture is emphatically clear beyond any and all doubt. It is one of the most clearly demonstrable doctrines in the entire Bible.

            Immediately after the tribulation of those days And lo there was a great earthquake;
            shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall and the sun became black as sackloth
            not give her light, and the stars shall fall from of hair, and the moon became as blood.
            heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall And the stars of heaven fell unto the
            be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of earth, even as a fig tree casteth her
            the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all untimely figs, when she is shaken of
            the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall a mighty wind . . . And said to the
            see the Son of man coming in the clouds mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and
            of heaven with power and great glory. hide us from the face of him that sits
            on the throne, and from the wrath of
            the lamb. For the great day of his wrath
            is come; and who shall be able to
            stand?

            (Matt 24:29,30) (Rev 6:12-17)

            Compare the above 2 verses: a clear description of the 2nd Coming.

            We then read in Rev 16:15. Jesus saying, Behold I come as a thief.

            In light of these facts, I’m sorry but if you insist Revelation is in chronological order . . .

            You really are delusional.

            Simple as that.

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            • And where is the Raptured church in Revelation??? Where are we?

              “We then read in Rev 16:15. Jesus saying, Behold I come as a thief.”

              And yet Jesus said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

              In Revelation 19, we find the Antichrist, the False Prophet and their armies, waiting at Armageddon for Jesus’ arrival. Jesus “comes as a thief” yet they KNOW when He is coming and where He is coming to.

              Daniel 12:11 tells us the exact time from the abomination of Desolation until the end of the Great Tribulation:

              “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.”

              Revelation 13 tells us the EXACT DURATION of the reign of the Antichrist:

              “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.”

              And of course anyone with a Bible, seeing the signs of Revelation, the Mark of the beast being instituted, global government, the Antichrist proclaiming himself to be god, etc., will obviously know that we are in the end times and can use Revelation as a guide to know exactly when Christ is coming. Even a complete unbeliever can know with certainty the exact say that the Antichrist will be defeated by Jesus Christ The Lord.

              Yet somehow, by the post-tribulation Rapture model, we are supposed to ignore these pretty blatant contradictions.

              Again, I respect your disagreement. I fully understand as the ideas being presented in this Rapture series are quite unusual. but I would only ask that if you are going to disagree so vociferously, please provide some contextual analysis of the Scriptures to support your point and refute mine.

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        • Hey Carl,

          I think you are taking way too much liberty with the text. I will just go through a few examples at this point.

          1. Babylon The Great –

          “I’M SORRY BUT YOUR STATEMENT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. REV 14 AND 18 ARE PERFECTLY CONSISTENT WITH EACH OTHER.”

          Really? well, Revelation 18 in its entirety, is about Babylon The Great. What is Revelation 14 about? What is your interpretation of the context of that chapter? Where in the end times Chronology does this chapter take place? You are not providing these explanations but yet saying that it’s abundantly easy to understand. If so, then please edify us and provide some Biblical interpretation of the actual Scriptures.

          “IF BABYLON IS DESTROYED AT REV 18:2 WHY DOES GOD URGE HIS PEOPLE TO “COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, THAT YE BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS, AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES?” 2 VERSES LATER? REV 18:8 “THEREFORE SHALL HER PLAGUES COME IN ONE DAY . . .” IT DOES NOT SAY “THEREFORE DID HER PLAGUES COME . . .” PAST TENSE. AGAIN REV 18:21 “THUS WITH VIOLENCE SHALL THAT GREAT CITY BABYLON BE THROWN DOWN . . .” FUTURE TENSE! AGAIN REV 18:23 “AND THE LIGHT OF A CANDLE SHALL SHINE NO MORE AT ALL IN THEE . . .”

          A PROPHECY OF BABYLON’S FUTURE DESTRUCTION.

          YOUR ARGUMENT IS ACTUALLY FURTHER CONCLUSIVE PROOF THAT THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS SIMPLY NOT IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER.”

          Of course it’s prophecy. I think we both can agree that the Antichrist is not here yet and was not reinging in John’s time. John is being shown the future. He is being shown the destruction of Babylon The Great/Mystery Babylon that is going to take place. And it is AFTER the other future events that John is being shown. Revelation is a vision of the future given in a chronology for the Apostle John to record for us. And my point is that chapter 18’s events are well after chapter 14’s. So yes, it is chronological, even if it is all in the future (or most of it, to be technical).

          2. The 6th Seal Earthquake –

          “REALLY? THIS MADE ME LAUGH. TALK ABOUT BEING PEDANTIC! THEY HID THEMSELVES IN THE DENS AND ROCKS OF THE MOUNTAINS (REV 6:15), BUT EVERY ISLAND FLED AWAY AND THE MOUNTAINS WERE NOT FOUND (REV 16:20). COMPARING THE 2 PASSAGES PROVIDES A COMPLETE PICTURE OF THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS. SIMPLE.”
          OR THE MOUNTAINS CRUMBLED AND THEY HID THEMSELVES IN THE DEBRIS THAT WAS LEFT. BUT TO SAY THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE EVENTS. THE MIND BOGGLES.

          So you are just going assert that the two earthquakes are the same even though the details given in Scripture are different. And you are forgetting that the 6th earthquake is described TWICE in Scripture:

          ” Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?” Isaiah 2:13-22.

          In this passage, God is telling the heathen to hide in the mountains. This is fulfilled at the 6th seal. The 7th vial earthquake is totally different:

          “20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.”

          There are no mountains at all. Period. So there are no caves and rocks to hide in. So it is not the same. Not to mention the other parts of the 7th vial do not correlate to the 6th Seal. Just look at the very next verse:

          “21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

          There is no hail storm at the 6th seal. Yet there is at the 7th vial. Jesus opens all the seals. Angels pour the vials. At the 6th seal men are running in fear of God and know that it is His wrath upon them and they are scared. At the 7th vial, men are blaspheming God and preparing to fight him. These are critical details, but you are just willing to ignore them because you are doing eisegesis, which is reading your own ideas into the text as opposed to exegesis, which is pulling the ideas out from the text itself.

          SO THEN. YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT RESTS ON THE CONCEPT THAT THE GREAT TRIBULATION IS MERELY “THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS” REFERRING TO THE CHURCH AGE IN GENERAL.

          No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying the when Jesus says the “tribulation of those days” He is referring to the various tribulations and persecutions the church has experienced for the past 2000 years. “Tribulation” is not a title or proper noun in Scripture. Great Tribulation and the Day of The Lord are. So when Jesus says “after the tribulation of those days” He is talking about the time before the end times begin. Many post-trib proponents have gotten hung up on this verse but it is based on a flawed interpretation. As I have tried to explain, end time prophecy is not easy to understand. The simple fact that we know that Jesus is the ONLY being in the universe worthy to open the seals and it is the angels who stand before His throne who pour the vials and yet you still call the vials and the seals “the same event” despite an unquestioned different set of actors (The Lord Jesus and an angel who serves Him) shows that lots of details are being overlooked in your end times perspective.

          As for the “last day” – upon Jesus’ return at Armageddon, He is going to judge the Earth. The people who remain alive shall be judged. The nations will also be judged (sheep/goat judgment). Additionally, the remnant of Israel who are persecuted during the Day of The Lord and the born again Christians who become saved during that time wll also be resurrected, “in the last day.” There will be more than one resurrection of believers in the end times.

          Again, if you would like to provide some contextual intepretations of the passages you are citing, I am happy to discuss them. But just throwing out questions with no real deeper study just keeps the cycle going. All 3 of the major Rapture models (pre-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath) are flawed under Biblical scrutiny. This is why the debate rages on and on in messages boards all over the web. Because each side can make valid points against the other. but rather than just throw verses back in forth, it is much more fruitful to really interpret the chapters being cited and give their coherent, contextual meaning. Aside from that we can just agree to disagree. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, especially when it comes to the Rapture. God bless.

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        • AMEN

            (Quote)

  14. Beginning and End:
    And where is the Raptured church in Revelation??? Where are we?

    THE WORDS CHURCH AND CHURCHES ARE MENTIONED IN THE FIRST FEW VERSES OF 2 THESS, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT NEVER AGAIN THROUGHOUT THE LETTER. DOES THIS MEAN THE REST OF 2 THESS DOESN’T CONCERN THE CHURCH? WE READ ABOUT SAINTS LATER IN CHAPTER 1 AND BRETHREN IN CHAPTER 2 AND 3. WHO ARE THESE SAINTS AND BRETHREN? THE CHURCH! JESUS WROTE LETTERS TO INDIVIDUAL CHURCHES IN EARLY REVELATION, BUT AFTER THAT THE CHURCH IS REFERRED TO MORE GENERALLY, COLLECTIVELY, AS . . . BRETHREN IN CHAPTERS 6 & 12, AND SAINTS IN CHAPTERS 8,11,13,14,16,17,18. ARE THE SAINTS AND BRETHREN WHO COMPRISE THE CHURCH IN 2 THESS NO LONGER THE CHURCH IN REVELATION?

    And yet Jesus said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

    JESUS COMES AS A THIEF SUDDENLY AND UNEXPECTEDLY, NOT SILENTLY AND ANONYMOUSLY.

    In Revelation 19, we find the Antichrist, the False Prophet and their armies, waiting at Armageddon for Jesus’ arrival. Jesus “comes as a thief” yet they KNOW when He is coming and where He is coming to.

    WAITING FOR JESUS’S ARRIVAL? NOT LIKELY. THEY WON’T KNOW THAT UNTIL THEY SEE HIM. UNTIL THEN THEY WILL THINK THEY ARE FIGHTING EACH OTHER AND THE JEWISH REMNANT.

    THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY OF THE LORD COME (ACTS 2:20).

    HOWL YE; FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD IS AT HAND; IT SHALL COME AS A DESTRUCTION FROM THE ALMIGHTY. THEREFORE SHALL ALL HANDS BE FAINT, AND EVERY MAN’S HEART SHALL MELT: AND THEY SHALL BE AFRAID: PANGS AND SORROWS SHALL TAKE HOLD OF THEM; THEY SHALL BE IN PAIN AS A WOMAN THAT TRAVAILETH: THEY SHALL BE AMAZED ONE AT ANOTHER; THEIR FACES SHALL BE AS FLAMES (ISA 13:6-8)

    Daniel 12:11 tells us the exact time from the abomination of Desolation until the end of the Great Tribulation:

    “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.”

    Revelation 13 tells us the EXACT DURATION of the reign of the Antichrist:

    “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.”

    And of course anyone with a Bible, seeing the signs of Revelation, the Mark of the beast being instituted, global government, the Antichrist proclaiming himself to be god, etc., will obviously know that we are in the end times and can use Revelation as a guide to know exactly when Christ is coming. Even a complete unbeliever can know with certainty the exact say that the Antichrist will be defeated by Jesus Christ The Lord.

    MANY SHALL BE PURIFIED, AND MADE WHITE, AND TRIED; BUT THE WICKED SHALL DO WICKEDLY: AND NONE OF THE WICKED SHALL UNDERSTAND!!!!!! BUT THE WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND.

    Yet somehow, by the post-tribulation Rapture model, we are supposed to ignore these pretty blatant contradictions.

    WHAT CONTRADICTIONS? THERE AREN’T ANY.

    Again, I respect your disagreement. I fully understand as the ideas being presented in this Rapture series are quite unusual. but I would only ask that if you are going to disagree so vociferously, please provide some contextual analysis of the Scriptures to support your point and refute mine.

    WHY? YOU KEEP IGNORING MY QUESTIONS ALTOGETHER. IF YOU COULD JUST EXPLAIN HOW THERE CAN BE A RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD IN CHRIST BEFORE THE TRIBULATION AND BEFORE THE 1ST RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD IN CHRIST AFTER THE TRIBULATION AT REV 20:5?
    HOW THE RESURRECTION OF THE LAST DAY IN JOHN 6 CAN OCCUR 7 YRS BEFORE THE LAST DAY?
    HOW JESUS CAN COME AS A THIEF TWICE?
    HOW THERE CAN BE A TRUMP AFTER LAST TRUMP OF 1 COR 15:52?
    HOW THE 2ND COMING AND OUR GATHERING TO CHRIST ARE BOUND TOGETHER AFTER THE ANTICHRIST IN 2THESS 2 AND 1 COR 15:23F, BUT YOU STILL INSIST IN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE?
    HOW THE HARVEST OF THE JUST CAN OCCUR YEARS BEFORE THE HARVEST OF THE WICKED WHEN JESUS SPECIFICALLY STATED THEY OCCUR TOGETHER IN MATT 13, AND IF ANYTHING THE TARES ARE HARVESTED FIRST?
    OR WHY JESUS NEVER MENTIONED A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE AT ALL, NEITHER DID PAUL, NEITHER DOES REVELATION AND NEITHER DOES THE BIBLE, ANYWHERE?

      (Quote)

    • I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO ADD THIS. YOU SAY THERE WILL BE MORE THAN ONE RESURRECTION OF BELIEVERS IN THE LAST DAYS.
      THAT IS A LIE AND YOU KNOW IT IS A LIE. THE FIRST RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD IN CHRIST OCCURS AFTER THE TRIBULATION (REV 20:5).

        (Quote)

      • OK, Carl, at this point we can just agree to disagree. I think we have two completely different approaches to Biblical interpretation. It’s just not fruitful if you are not going to provide analysis and context of Scriptures. You just make assertions. For example:

        “WAITING FOR JESUS’S ARRIVAL? NOT LIKELY. THEY WON’T KNOW THAT UNTIL THEY SEE HIM. UNTIL THEN THEY WILL THINK THEY ARE FIGHTING EACH OTHER AND THE JEWISH REMNANT.”

        Where is the Scripture to back up this assertion? In the actual text we read:

        And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

        They are there to fight Jesus. This is what Scripture says. They know He is coming and have gathered rulers and armies from all over the world to meet at one specific location at one time to fight The Lord. So clearly, the “thief in the night” idea does not apply here. The Antichrist himself knows Jesus is coming. But the problem with so many rapture debates, is that there is such a rush to find any verse that has language that supports ones model, it is used without respect to its context or real meaning.

        And at the point that this is resorting to calling one a “liar”, it’s really getting futile. If Christians cannot have discourse with the fruits of the Spirit then the discussion is most likely not worthwhile. So I will respectfully withdraw from this discussion. Please feel free to continue to post and share your perspective, but I do ask that you refrain from personal attacks on your fellow posters.

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  15. Beginning and End:
    Hey Carl,

    I think you are taking way too much liberty with the text. I will just go through a few examples at this point.

    1. Babylon The Great –

    Really? well, Revelation 18 in its entirety, is about Babylon The Great. What is Revelation 14 about? What is your interpretation of the context of that chapter? Where in the end times Chronology does this chapter take place? You are not providing these explanations but yet saying that it’s abundantly easy to understand. If so, then please edify us and provide some Biblical interpretation of the actual Scriptures.

    Of course it’s prophecy. I think we both can agree that the Antichrist is not here yet and was not reinging in John’s time. John is being shown the future. He is being shown the destruction of Babylon The Great/Mystery Babylon that is going to take place. And it is AFTER the other future events that John is being shown. Revelation is a vision of the future given in a chronology for the Apostle John to record for us. And my point is that chapter 18′s events are well after chapter 14′s. So yes, it is chronological, even if it is all in the future (or most of it, to be technical).

    2. The 6th Seal Earthquake –

    So you are just going assert that the two earthquakes are the same even though the details given in Scripture are different. And you are forgetting that the 6th earthquake is described TWICE in Scripture:

    ” Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty.The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low: And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?” Isaiah 2:13-22.

    In this passage, God is telling the heathen to hide in the mountains. This is fulfilled at the 6th seal. The 7th vial earthquake is totally different:

    “20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.”

    There are no mountains at all. Period. So there are no caves and rocks to hide in. So it is not the same. Not to mention the other parts of the 7th vial do not correlate to the 6th Seal. Just look at the very next verse:

    “21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

    There is no hail storm at the 6th seal. Yet there is at the 7th vial. Jesus opens all the seals. Angels pour the vials. At the 6th seal men are running in fear of God and know that it is His wrath upon them and they are scared. At the 7th vial, men are blaspheming God and preparing to fight him. These are critical details, but you are just willing to ignore them because you are doing eisegesis, which is reading your own ideas into the text as opposed to exegesis, which is pulling the ideas out from the text itself.

    SO THEN. YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT RESTS ON THE CONCEPT THAT THE GREAT TRIBULATION IS MERELY “THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS” REFERRING TO THE CHURCH AGE IN GENERAL.

    No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying the when Jesus says the “tribulation of those days” He is referring to the various tribulations and persecutions the church has experienced for the past 2000 years. “Tribulation” is not a title or proper noun in Scripture. Great Tribulation and the Day of The Lord are. So when Jesus says “after the tribulation of those days” He is talking about the time before the end times begin. Many post-trib proponents have gotten hung up on this verse but it is based on a flawed interpretation. As I have tried to explain, end time prophecy is not easy to understand. The simple fact that we know that Jesus is the ONLY being in the universe worthy to open the seals and it is the angels who stand before His throne who pour the vials and yet you still call the vials and the seals “the same event” despite an unquestioned different set of actors (The Lord Jesus and an angel who serves Him) shows that lots of details are being overlooked in your end times perspective.

    SO. YOU ARE SAYING “IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS” (MATT 24:29) DOES NOT IN FACT REFER TO THE GREAT TRIBULATION JESUS HAS JUST DESCRIBED FROM VERSE 21, BUT REALLY THE ENTIRE CHURCH AGE OF THE LAST 2 THOUSAND YEARS. IF YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT, THEN THAT’S IT, WE HAVE NOTHING MORE TO SAY. YOU REALLY ARE DELUSIONAL.

    As for the “last day” – upon Jesus’ return at Armageddon, He is going to judge the Earth. The people who remain alive shall be judged. The nations will also be judged (sheep/goat judgment). Additionally, the remnant of Israel who are persecuted during the Day of The Lord and the born again Christians who become saved during that time wll also be resurrected, “in the last day.” There will be more than one resurrection of believers in the end times.

    WHAT YOU ARE BASICALLY SAYING IS THAT THE TRIBULATION SAINTS WILL BE RESURRECTED ON THE LAST DAY, BUT NOT THE DEAD IN CHRIST BECAUSE THEY WERE RAISED BEFORE THE TRIBULATION.
    THIS IS A CLEAR VIOLATION OF JOHN CHAPTER 6. JESUS IS TALKING TO ALL BELIEVERS. TO SUGGEST HE HIS TALKING ONLY OF TRIBULATION SAINTS IS ABSURD. IN JOHN 11:24 WE FIND THESE WORDS: “MARTHA SAITH UNTO HIM, I KNOW THAT HE SHALL RISE AGAIN IN THE RESURRECTION AT THE LAST DAY”.

    ACCORDING TO MY MODEL, LAZARUS IS RAISED ON THE LAST DAY.
    ACCORDING TO YOUR MODEL LAZARUS IS RAISED 7 YRS BEFORE THE LAST DAY.

    WHICH IS CORRECT ACCORDING TO WHAT THE SCRIPTURE CLEARLY TEACHES?

    Again, if you would like to provide some contextual intepretations of the passages you are citing, I am happy to discuss them. But just throwing out questions with no real deeper study just keeps the cycle going. All 3 of the major Rapture models (pre-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath) are OT under Biblical scrutiny. This is why the debate rages on and on in messages boards all over the web. Because each side can make valid points against the other. but rather than just throw verses back in forth, it is much more fruitful to really interpret the chapters being cited and give their coherent, contextual meaning. Aside from that we can just agree to disagree. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, especially when it comes to the Rapture. God bless.

      (Quote)

  16. I shan’t be replying to any more posts because this debate has gone on long enough.

    All I can do is warn those who believe this lie. The pre-trib rapture is a fantasy. It’s not going to happen and you need to prepare yourselves for the coming tribulation. He who endures to the end shall be saved.

    As the Lord predicted in Matt 24:10 many shall be offended and fall away. In my opinion many of them most likely because the rapture didn’t happen as they were told it would.

      (Quote)

    • Thank You, Carl. I back you for expressing Truth and Love.The KJV is the source for Scripture. Any other is blasphemous deleted/altered scripture. Pre-Trib rapture is false. P.S. The Mark of the Beast is NOT honoring the Sabbath.(Saturday)The 4th Commandment was never altered by God or Jesus. Jesus observed Sabbath days with the Jews as an example for all and did not object. The Jesuits and vatican church changed it.

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  17. I would offer that the Scripture does seem to differentiate between the trials and tribulations that beleievers suffer in the church age dispensation and the “full wrath of God” of which the Bible says will be poured out upon the earth “without mixture” during “the Great Tribulation”. I do tend to believe that the “Great Tribulation” will be not only God’s judgement upon the wicked, non-believing world system, but also God’s reconciliation with the nation of Israel. Jesus Himself also referred to the Great Tribulation as the “time of Jacob’s trouble”. And as this author has pointed out, the church, which the Scriptures plainly refer to as the born-again Christians of this time frame, between Christ’s assencion back to heaven and the “catching away” of His saints, are never mentioned in the Revelation between chapter 4 and chapter 19, which also coincides with the events of the Great Tribulation. And what Christ says to the Philadelphia church in Rev. 3:10, right befor the narrative switches over to the events of the Great Tribulation seems to offer pretty compelling support for the church NOT going through this horrific event. I believe that B&E is correct in the assertion that prophecy is NOT easy to understand and that it does indeed require much “digging in” to “rightly divide” the Word. As I mentioned in one of my previous postings, the Jews, including the 12 Apostles, had a very poor understanding of Christ’s purpose here on this earth during His first incarnation, even though many of them were very familiar with the texts of the Old Testament. Their interpretation of the Old Testament prophecies was that the Messiah was going to set up His kingdom on earth at that time and the disciples were totally disheartened by the crucifixion. And they were in total disbelief at the first mention of His resurrection, even though Jesus Himself told them repeatedly that He was going to be crucified, die, and rise again on the third day. And knowing what we know now, from reviewing the Messianic passages in the Old testament, it is understandable as to why they would’ve had the impression of Him setting up His Messianic kingdom on earth at that time, without the benefit of the New Testament at their disposal.

    As always, many thanks to B&E for putting out these most informative and thought provoking articles of biblical matters and patiently fielding comments about his articles, whether or not they are in agreement with his point of view. Keep ‘em coming :-)

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    • Hi Dave,

      Thanks for your post. And I absolutely agree that the focus of the end times is Israel and specifically the refining of the believing remnant of the Jewish nation. If you look at our article on the Day of The Lord, that idea is fleshed out a little bit more.

      Revelation 3:10 is of course one of the examples in Scripture that show believers indeed can and will escape the Great Tribulation.

      In addition to the Disciples, let’s not forget that the majority of the nation of Israel did not understand the prophetic fulfillment during Jesus’ ministry on Earth showing Biblically, that He Is the Messiah. After He rode into Jerusalem on the foal of a donkey in accordance with the exact timing prophesied in Daniel’s 70 week’s prophecy, what does Jesus say right after entering:

      “41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.” – Luke 19

      The Jewish people of that day should have known the prophetic significance of Jesus’ entry and proclaimed Him the Messiah. instead the Pharisees told Jesus to rebuke the people who were praising Him. But the point is that their misunderstanding of prophetic Scripture was so serious that Jesus was weeping over it. So I think we as a body of believers today should take heed and use let that be a warning to us not think we have it all figured out without taking the time to deeply study and search the Scriptures. God bless.

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      • silvanus says:

        Hi B&E and Carl,both of you have posted good arguments. But I think there are things not touched to get a full grip of the matter. First is second death and the 1000years(millennium). From here,I will be able to explain more. Thanks

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  18. My question to the author:
    You say the Rapture (which includes the resurrection of the dead) takes place BEFORE “the great Tribulation” why does Revelation 20:4-5 say:
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM THAT WERE BEHEADED FOR THE WITNESS OF JESUS, AND FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

    If there was a resurrection BEFORE the great tribulation, why would Rev. 20:5 in talking about the souls of the saints that were “…BEHEADED FOR THE WITNESS OF JESUS, AND FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS…” then state that THEIR RESURRECTION IS THE FIRST?

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    • Hi JC,

      This is an excellent question. The answer to this question lies entirely in the context of the verses you cite. But before I get to Revelation, I want to start with Our Lord’s final words in the book of Matthew:

      19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen. – Matthew 28

      Notice that Jesus’ promise of being with us is until “the end of the world.” Well when is the “end of the world” in the sense that The Lord meant it? It is precisely what we see in Revelation 20:

      And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. – Revelation 20:1-4.

      While this passage does not get much attention in sermons or many articles it is monumental. This is literally “the end of the world.” It is the end of the age of Satan on the earth. His “world” or “age” (Greek aeon), literally comes to an end in verse 3. He no longer has any authority or dominion on the Earth and all of his sinful influence has been removed as he has been imprisoned in the abyss for the milennium. We can see confirmation of this in the way Jesus refers to Satan in Scripture:

      John 12:31 – Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

      John 14:30 – Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

      John 16:11 – Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

      Satan is the prince of THIS world – meaning this present age where he has been giving limited authority along with his demonic minions to influence manking into rebellion against The Lord (while in a constant battle against the Holy angelic host). But it comes to an end in Revelation 20:3. This is an awesome moment for believers! Christ is now fully installed on the throne of David and His World and Kingdom without end, has now commenced.

      So now that we have seen that have made a monumental shift in worlds and kingdom, let’s look at the verses in question:

      4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

      So now we see martyrs of the Great Tribulation and the Great Persecution of the Antichrist being resurrected. This is the FIRST resurrection in this world. In the Millennial Kingdom, where Christ sits on the throne of David, ruling the Earth in righteousness and an iron rod, where Satan is imprisoned, these martyrs are the first resurrected beings. Revelation is being written from the Heavenly perspective and while to us at first glance, this just seems like one of many resurrections in Scripture, it is actually a very momentous one, because these believers are coming to resurrection in the Millennial Age.
      (And obviously we know from Scripture that there were many resurrections -not even counting the rapture, so clearly the “first” is indicative of it being the first of its era).

      I hope that helps. We will get into this in more detail as we continue to work through every chapter of Revelation (Lord willing, our article on the 144,000 will be posted this week). If you have any further questions please feel free to ask. God bless you abundantly.

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  19. JC:
    My question to the author:
    You say the Rapture (which includes the resurrection of the dead) takes place BEFORE “the great Tribulation” if that’s the case, why does Revelation 20:4-5 say:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM THAT WERE BEHEADED FOR THE WITNESS OF JESUS, AND FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

    If there is a resurrection BEFORE the great tribulation, why would Rev. 20:5 in talking about the souls of the saints that were “…BEHEADED FOR THE WITNESS OF JESUS, AND FOR THE WORD OF GOD, AND WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS…” then state that THEIR RESURRECTION IS THE FIRST?

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  20. Hey, thanks for taking the time to post a response to the question I asked as I wasn’t really expecting one. With that being said, I disagree with your interpretation of the “the end of the world” as stated in your post. You said cited Revelation 20: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
    You then said: “While this passage does not get much attention in sermons or many articles it is monumental. THIS (I’m assuming here that you’re referring to Satan being bound and cast into the bottom less pit) is literally “the end of the world.” It is the end of the age of Satan on the earth. His “world” or “age” (Greek aeon), literally comes to an end in verse 3. He no longer has any authority or dominion on the Earth and all of his sinful influence has been removed as he has been imprisoned in the abyss for the milennium.”
    While this is true in that he (satan) has no influence for the millennium, you’ve ignored the last part of the verse that says: “…and after that he (Satan) must be loosed a little season”.
    AND WHAT DOES HE DO AFTER BEING LOOSED?
    Revelation 20:7-10: 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to DECEIVE the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    So we see here that AFTER Satan is loosed from the pit that he STILL HAS SINFUL INFUENCE OVER THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH. So when you say “It is the end of the age of Satan on the earth. His “world” or “age” (Greek aeon), literally comes to an end in verse 3” I have to disagree. From the plain reading of the scriptures the end of Satan’s reign of deception TRULY comes to an end in verse 10; AND THE DEVIL THAT DECEIVED THEM WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, WHERE THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET ARE, AND SHALL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.
    And THE END OF THE WORLD takes place in CHAPTER 21: Rev 21:1-3:
    1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    I also disagree with your answer to the question I had asked but this is already a long post so I’ll say why I disagree if/when you respond to this. Thanks.

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    • Hi JC,

      Thanks for getting back to me. Yes, of course, Satan is indeed loosed at the end of the milennium. But we cannot just skip over the rule of Christ on Earth as if it is a mere footnote. It is a monumental age. It is literally the age of Christ, and a different “world” in the Biblical sense. The term “earth” refers to our planet. The term “world”, especially when in used in reference to Satan means an age – the prevailing conditions for a set time of history. Satan is not the “god of the earth.” He never was and never will be. But he does have princely authority in this age or world as the Bible refers to it. So the end of this world is indeed when he is bound and Christ rules Earth.

      Scripture does not leave this unnoticed. In the millenium, which The Lord refers to as “the regeneration” the Earth will be very different.

      Lifespans will increase (Isaiah 65:20-25).

      animals become peaceful, no longer fear humans and are not predators. (Isaiah 11:6-9).

      There will be no wars:

      But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
      3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. – Micah 4

      Additionally, the topography of the Earth will literally change. The earth will return to its conditions of Eden and the pre-flood world. This is the next “world” humanity will experience. When Jesus spoke of the “end of the world” it was not in reference to the Revelation 22, but to Revelation 20. and the resurrection of saints martyred during the Great Tribulation will be the first resurrection of this new world – the Kingdom of Christ on Earth.

      After the Millennium and Satan’s final rebellion and destruction, we have a NEW EARTH. Now the planet itself, will be destroyed (which is necessary because the planet still carries the curse of sin it, blood of the innocent, etc) and a sinless New Earth will be created and a new Heaven as well. \

      And again, all this aside, we know that there are other resurrections prior to the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20. So that alone should indicate there is something unique about the Revelation 20 resurrection for it to be called “the first.”

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  21. Antonio says:

    Hi B&E
    You say that the pre-wrath position is at the 1st seal, but this is not correct. The traditional pre-wrath position is at the 7th trumpet in Rev., the last event before the true wrath of God which is the 7 bowls of wrath as the name indicates. This the “last rumpet” which Paul mentions in 1. Cor. 15. I believe that the Great Tribulation lasts not the whole 7 years but the last 3 1/2 years. This fits perfectly the statement of the Angel (Rev.11:15-18): 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, (the following 7 bowls) and the time of the dead (the rapture), that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name (the judgement seat of Christ), small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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    • Hi Antonio,

      Thanks for your comment. As you may have guessed, I do not agree with your position on the timing of the Rapture. But I had a question for you: does it matter to you that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians decades before John wrote Revelation? I have always wondered about the position you hold in that regard. Does it matter to you that you are saying Paul was calling the 7th trump of Revelation “the last trump” before Revelation was even written? I am just curious as to how those who follow your timeline reconcile this. Thanks and God bless.

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  22. Melinda says:

    I have always been taught of the pre-trib rapture, that being said I would like to share what I heard on the Christian radio today. What would be the purpose for the true believers of Christ to go through the tribulation period? Some say for purification, if this is the case then people would have to believe we are saved by works, not by faith. When Jesus was on the cross he said it is finished, meaning ALL our sins are on him and we are saved by belief in him, not by our works.

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    • Yes Melinda, I agree. If we were to prove ourselves “worthy” by going thru The Tribulation, then when we reach we will have a thing to boast — “See I withstood the tribulation for my faith.” And that would negate the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ. The tribulation is for Israel to come to an understanding that Jesus in fact is Christ, and salvation is through HIM only. Church is the bride of Christ, whereas those faithfuls who died in Rev 20, are called “priests of God and of Christ” in verse 6. Jesus comes in the clouds, takes HIS bride>>Heavenly marriage for 7 years (gates are closed, world is going thru tribulation)>>Second coming of Christ>>Satan in pit>>Christ’s 1000 years rule>>Satan in Hell>>New Earth.

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  23. Terry :) – Thanks so much for these 3 articles. I have enjoyed them very much!! I do have one question about this Blood moon rapture. I’m following you but it was hard to understand if you are saying that the rapture will be before the 7 year tribulation, right before the day of the Lord(which would be at the 3 1/2 year mark of the 7 year tribulation). I know that its not supporting the Church going through the last 3 1/2 years which is the Wrath of God but if you could please explain the time frame you are supporting in this article. I truly believe that it will def. be before the Day of the Lord, middle of the tribulation because the bride will not endure God’s Wrath. Please help me to understand where this article supports His rapture for the church. Thanks in advance!

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    • Hi Terry,

      Thanks so much for your comments. Praise God that the articles have been a blessing. You may have noticed that I am very reluctant to use the term “7 year tribulation.” Only because it’s not exactly an accurate term for the end times. “Tribulation” in the Bible refers to the trials, suffering and persecution the church has experienced all through history. It is a common noun in Scripture, not a title. But I will try to make my interpretation clear to answer your question:

      The Day of The Lord and the Great Tribulation are the same end times period where God pours out his wrath on the unbelieving world (the trumpet and bowl judgments). This all starts at the 6th Seal opening in Revelation 6.

      The opening of the 6th seal is also the time of the Rapture. So the Church experiences NONE of the Great Tribulation. This fulfills Luke 21:36.

      “34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

      The Raptured Church escapes all of the end times wrath of God and is safe in Heaven with The Lord. So in a sense this is “pre-Great Tribulation”.

      At some point after the opening of the 6th seal, the 70th week of Daniel commences. This is a 7 year period.

      I hope that makes sense. I have been asked in the past to provide a timeline of the end times and I am going to finally comply and provide one in the coming months as we continue our series going through every chapter of the Boo of Revelation. If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask. God bless you abundantly. -B&E

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  24. Evangelicals Use Occult Deception !

    Heard of the coming blood moons? Is the pretrib rapture symbolized by anything in the heavens?
    Hal Lindsey, influenced by occult astrology, asserts on p. 124 in “The Late Great Planet Earth” that the famous Sphinx in Egypt has the head of a “woman” – even though encyclopedias say it’s the head of a “man”! Hal’s plagiarism on that page of a 19th century British theologian is his acceptance of the occult Virgo-to-Leo theory – a “Christian” zodiac arbitrarily starting with Virgo (Virgin Mary) and ending with Leo (Christ returning as “Lion,” Rev. 5:5).
    Those who swallow this guesswork often see Ursa Minor (part of Cancer which precedes Leo) as a heavenly “symbol” of a pretrib rapture!
    Pretribs also insist on separating the “church” from “Israel” – but when you aren’t looking (or thinking) they blithely “prove” pretrib by the Jewish feasts in Leviticus, the stages of a Hebrew wedding (Google “Pretrib Rapture: A Staged Event”), and the one “taken” and the other “left” in “Jewish” Matthew 24!
    Amazingly, Jewishness (and even anti-Jewishness) has been uncovered even in pretrib dispensationalism’s 19th century foundation (Google “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism”)!
    The current “blood moons” craze (promoted by lunar persons including rock musician Scottie Clarke and John Hagee) is tied to – you guessed it – the same Jewish feast days.
    Yes, there’s something colored red in the future of the church, but I don’t have moons in mind. What will really turn red will be the collective faces of many when it finally dawns on them that their any-moment fly-away was nothing more than an end time hoax!

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  25. c phillip says:

    I only have one disagreement.

    While the 7 years of tribulation is taking place on earth , I think the 7 year wedding (marriage supper of the lamb ) is taking place simultaneously..

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    • Hi C Phillip,

      You wrote:

      “I only have one disagreement.

      While the 7 years of tribulation is taking place on earth , I think the 7 year wedding (marriage supper of the lamb ) is taking place simultaneously..”

      Well, I agree completely with what you wrote so I don’t think we have much of a disagreement after all. lol. God bless.

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  26. hi beginning and end, firstly thank you very much for this informative site, it is much appreciated. I have not yet had time to explore all your articles and don’t know if you have already explored this topic. Anyway I was just wondering, after reading comment from part 2 from the atheists, whether you would consider doing an article on science dictatorships and how big a role they played in forming the theory of evolution and how new relative to biblical history that view is. Also that our schooling system has been entirely infiltrated by evolution teaching and being taught as fact while totally disregarding a creationist view in a lot of cases, even here in South Africa, where we are still relatively conservative and most schools still hold to biblical values and truths, yet the enemy is still infiltrating the education system via organisations like unesco and the like. like all un backed organisations we know their agenda is to build a new world order and no better way than getting to the children.
    “9 the coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.” 2 Thes.
    Please consider this as it will possibly side some light and hopefully by the Holy Spirt the scales will fall from their eyes and they will see the light of the Lord Jesus before He comes and stop believing the true delusion of evolution that has them indoctrinated.
    Blessings to you and the wonderful ministry via this website in the Lord.
    Maranatha.

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  27. GreyFoXX4 says:

    I also believe that Rev is written with events happening together. Didn’t go into the bowls of wrath here or yet but hopefully will get them at least gone through for my own writings. Sort of like a seal is broken such as such happens, next seal such and such happens. I also believe that we will be taken away right before the final judgements right as the last seal, trump is being done or blown. Heres my ideas

    Things are going to go pretty fast I believe. Taking from Daniel and looking at history the sacrifices has already been taking away one time for 3.5 years. So the final times and tribulation for the end days will be 3.5 years, or at least blessed is he that make it 1335 days.

    Daniel 12:10-13
    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    Beginning of Tribulation
    Rev 6:2
    2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

    Mat 24:9
    9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

    Mat 24:21
    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    Martyr’s

    Rev 6:5-6
    5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
    6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

    Rev 6:9-10
    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    Those that died during the Tribulation.

    Rev 7:14-15
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

    I say died cause of these verses.

    Rev 7:16-17
    16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
    17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    Rev 6:8

    8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    Rev 8:7 (Fire)

    7 * The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

    Rev 8:8-11 (Thirst)

    8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
    9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
    10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
    11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

    Mat 24:22
    22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

    Rev 8:12
    12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

    Rapture =*
    Mat. 24
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Rev. 7:1-2

    1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
    2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

    Rev 8:1

    *1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

    Rev 10:1-3 (From Mathew this is a pretty good sign of the son of man)

    1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
    2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
    3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.
    4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
    5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
    6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

    (Deuteronomy 32:36-42 Reference to Rev 10:1-6)
    36 For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
    37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
    38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
    39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
    40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
    41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. 42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

    *1 Corinthians 15:47
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    *Rev 10-7
    *7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound , the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    *Rev 11:13-15
    13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past
    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Mat 13:39-43
    39 *The enemy that sowed them is the devil ; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    *Rev 14:20 (In Reference to Mat 13:39-43)
    14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
    15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
    17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
    18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
    19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
    20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

    *Rev 16:15-18
    *15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. The seventh angel pours out his bowl into the air
    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

    Well have at it lol.

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  28. GreyFoXX4 says:

    One more thing about the idea that is behind the events happening together.

    Ephesians 3:18-19
    18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
    19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

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  29. please also check storys of the lion and the unicorn,, love n light be with you all,, peace comes from remembering only love is real,, fear not for god love

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  30. Your pretrib rapture view fails to explain Revelation 20 where we are told that Christians face off with and are killed by the beast. This is the beast that makes war with the Saints. This happens after the 7th Seal. Revelation 20 tells us that these people who face the beast are part of the 1st resurrection. There is a very good reason why it is called the 1st resurrection: because there is no resurrection before it.

    The great multitude of chapter 7 are not called “the church” and no where does it say that they were “raptured.” And taking this to be a resurrection that happens before the “first resurrection” of chapter 20 in which we care clearly told are included those who face antichrist beast creates many issues.

    That great multitude were killed not raptured and coming out of “great tribulation” gives no indication about time. People just assume that every time they see those words it has to mean that last 3.5 years. Not necessarily so.

    Those folks in ch 7 are surely killed during a time of great persecution, but they are not to be resurrected until they join those who die at the hands of the beast and this entire group is part of the Rev 20 first resurrection.

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  31. Julie Ringer:
    AMEN

    I TAKE MY AMEN BACK I BELIVE IN PRE TRIB

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