Many are still putting their faith that science will “figure it all out.”
In the latest challenge to the Big Bang Theory, a scientist using the research on the Higgs Boson subatomic particle ( also known as “the God particle” for supposedly being the building block that created the universe) has asserted that the Big Bang Theory cannot possibly be correct. The research, which was submitted for peer review in June 2014, will make waves in the scientific community and shows again that while many in society wrongly assume science has proven the origin of the universe, it is just relying on faith they will eventually get it right.
According to reports:
The universe shouldn’t exist — at least according to a new theory.
Modeling of conditions soon after the Big Bang suggests the universe should have collapsed just microseconds after its explosive birth, the new study suggests.
“During the early universe, we expected cosmic inflation — this is a rapid expansion of the universe right after the Big Bang,” said study co-author Robert Hogan, a doctoral candidate in physics at King’s College in London. “This expansion causes lots of stuff to shake around, and if we shake it too much, we could go into this new energy space, which could cause the universe to collapse.”
Physicists draw that conclusion from a model that accounts for the properties of the newly discovered Higgs boson particle, which is thought to explain how other particles get their mass. Faint traces of gravitational waves formed at the universe’s origin also inform the conclusion. (source).
In short, based on the current cutting edge research into particle physics, the Big Bang theory cannot hold true because the universe should have collapsed in on itself right after the initial explosion (which obviously has not happened). So what is the correct explanation? Hogan suggests that science is still working on it:
“The generic expectation is that there must be some new physics that we haven’t put in our theories yet, because we haven’t been able to discover them,” Hogan said.
One leading possibility, known as the theory of supersymmetry, proposes that there are superpartner particles for all the currently known particles, and perhaps more-powerful particle accelerators could find these particles, Hogan said. (source).
In other words, Hogan does not have a substantive explanation on the origin of the universe and is forced to just speculate.
God – The Creator Of The Universe
The first sentence of the Bible explains the Creation of the Universe.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. –Genesis 1:1.
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. – Psalm 33:6.Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host..” – Nehemiah 9:6.
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is..” – Acts 4:24.
The Bible is clear that God, and specifically, Jesus Christ, the Word of God, created the universe. This idea has become a source of anger, mocking and hostility in much of the academic world. Bible skeptics will look and hunt for one “error” in the Bible to cast doubt on it entirely. Yet here the Big Bang theory has been called incorrect based on the most advanced research on the origin of the universe and none of the same skepticism is being directed at the scientific community. Will public schools now teach the Big Bang theory with the caveat that leading scientists say its incorrect and could not possibly be true? Will there be any qualification given to its teaching that it may or may not be correct? Sadly, in many academic institutions its taught as “scientific fact” despite the fact that it is just one of many theories for the origin of the universe.
Science is fluid. New discoveries are made every day as technology improves and theories are adjusted and revised accordingly. Hogan’s theory is one of many which challenge the concepts behind the Big Bang and no doubt other academics will come forward to challenge his theories. Science is not “the enemy” of Christianity or something to be despised. The problem occurs when theories like the Big Bang are taught as if they are proven facts (which they are not – hence them being theories and not law or fact). This deceptive pseudoscientific movement has led to many people putting their faith in science to have everything “figured out” and thus providing an easy way to reject God and not think about one’s sin and coming judgment. But all the science in the world cannot solve the problem of humanity’s willing rebellion against God and His Word. No discovery can erase our sin. But the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross can and will, if a person has faith. Pray that more people take their faith from the Big Bang and make the greatest discovery of their lives, how to receive forgiveness and eternal life though Jesus Christ.
This reminds me of the scientific community trying to explain dark matter and dark energy. All of the complex mathematical equations that the astronomers and physicists work through via today’s supercomputers simply points to the fact that the observable matter and energy that we can account for lacks by far from what the equations say that there must be in available matter and energy to hold this universe that we can see together. I say that God is the most plausible explanation for the dark matter and dark energy dilemma and that the more that the scientific community uncovers, the more apparent it becomes as to just how little we really do “know”. Consequently, this “God particle” article is just another prime example of this fact.
Well said B&E
Well said B&E, nice article
we had an astrophysicist visitor from Belgium (the place where Higgs- Boson was proved true) and he told me that “the math goes to infinity when you go back to 10 to the minus 23rd after when the Big Bang supposedly happened” so they DO NOT support the Big Bang because they’re scientists and aren’t into the religion of the Big Bang (belief without evidence).
Hi Stevor, although I’m in pretty much total agreement with the posts of B&E and his sympathetic responders, let me briefly play devil’s advocate and comment from what I have at least been led to believe. It is my understanding that the cosmic background microwave radiation (CBMR) was mathematically predicted as the result of the theorized “Big Bang” (BB) and prior to the actual observance and confirmation of the CBMR. Thus, once the CMBR was confirmed, the secular scientific community touted it as “proof” for the BB. Of course, this still does not address the momentous question of “what” or “who” cause the BB, assuming that the BB is factual. Genesis 1:1 does however address this question, in spite of the intellectual hostility of the modern mainstream scientific community toward this simple explanation. Of course, it is also rather ironic that thanks to the continued research of today’s physicists and their confirmation of the Higgs-Boson “God particle”, the BB itself now seems to be in jeopardy. Yet, God’s Word still remains the same – go figure!
Well its a theory and theories are often proven either true or false. Like when growing we are told that our solar system had 9 planets but recently it was discovered that pluto isnt a planet so I doubt the big bang theory is gonna be taught as a fact cause new textbooks dont include pluto as a planet anymore.
Actually, MACRO-evolution, as opposed to micro-evolution, as an explanation of origins (of life), is still alive and well in today’s biology textbooks, even though this theory stands on very shaky ground, at best, and has been for quite a few decades now. When it was first proposed by Darwin in the 1850s, it was assumed that “simple” life truly was simple in complexity and that given enough time and chance, it really could spontaneously come about. Fast forward 150+ years and it is now more obvious than ever that even the DNA of the simplest single-celled life forms are incredibly complex and the very idea of even these simplest of life forms spontaneously forming by shear random and accidental means is totally absurd to any informed and logically thinking mind! Even the most state of the art labs of today have yet to “create” a single solitary cell of true life from totally NON-LIVING material and yet they still would have us believe that life “just happened” by shear blind chance!
Well science cant prove how life came into existence and neither can religion – so thats one thing science and religion have in common
Yes, that’s one point that we actually agree upon 🙂 No one can actually “prove” how we got here since no one was actually there to witness creation. However, I still think the case for an intelligent design requiring an intelligent Designer is FAR more plausible than the “it just happened by random chance” explanation. Just like you wouldn’t look at something as simple as a wristwatch and just assume that it just “happened to form all on its own”. Bottom line is that no matter what explanation of origins that you accept, whether Genesis 1 and 2 or Charles Darwin, either way one must exercise FAITH to believe which ever explanation that they accept. I personally think it takes more faith to believe the secular scientists’ explanation than it does the Bible, though. To quote apologist Frank Tureck, “I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist” 😉
Hi Childofra/ David R.
Actually, I can show exactly where life came from and how we got our consciousness.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:3 (KJV)
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:16 (KJV)
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Romans 11:36 (KJV)
Now David R. is correct, in a sense that yes, you must have faith to believe. And David R. is also correct in saying that you have to have just as much faith to believe life happened by chance. However, you can’t have a building without a builder, and a painting without a painter, and you can’t have creation without a Creator. Creation can not create itself! God makes it clear that through Him (Jesus Christ), everything was made. And God cannot lie (Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18). So it’s up to you, whether or not you recognize, that God did indeed create all life, and breathed life into us. I pray that you will search some of the scriptures I referenced and seek more for yourself. May grace, peace and mercy be unto from God our Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:20 (KJV)
Question,
What other sources besides the bible do yyou have on god creating life? I have noticed that when trying to prove a point or among those lines christians always said search the scripture or read the bible. There is nothing wrong with that but besides the bible what other sources do you have?
If this was a research paper for school I would have to give my professor multiple sources of where I got my information from to write my paper.
Actually, the biggest evidence against any kind of universe without a Creator is the existence of consciousness. Theoretically, life can be started without the existence of a Creator (it’s a stretch, but it has been shown to be theoretically possible).
Human consciousness, however, is something that can’t be explained by any kind of scientific theory without a Creator. There is nothing within the theory of evolution or the theory of life that actually contain an explanation as to why people are conscious and not just like any other animal. Out of all creation, humans are an exception because we have the capability to understand our decisions.
This is a big deal, because when you recognize that we can understand our decisions that sets us apart from every creature that acts off of instinct or conditioning. While humans can be conditioned or taught to follow instinct, it never changes the fact that we have the capability to go against the grain and be something different.
Ultimately, as a Christian, this ‘consiousness’ can be explained in two ways: Free will and human soul. God has given these to us as humans, but not to animals (sorry, but it’s true – animals have life, but not souls in the same sense as humans). No matter what theories science comes up with, there will never be a substantial theory to explain why humans always have the ability to make moral choices.
THAT is the evidence for a Creator.
Yes, Collin very good points that you bring out and you’re “preaching to the choir” with me 😉 I’m just engaging in some friendly debate with one of the “more skeptical” followers of this forum. Your statements about paintings, buildings and creation requiring respectively, a painter, builder, and a Creator follow the same point that I was making with the wristwatch analogy in my previous response to chidofra. And yes, it does require faith to believe and accept whatever explanation that you fancy on origins for sure, but as I was saying before, truly logical thought would lead one to regard the biblical account of creation as a far more plausible explanation for creation than Darwinism. And I don’t see why you would even have to be a believer to come to that conclusion, although I will admit that my faith in Christ does kind of bias me toward the biblical account of creation over Darwinism 🙂
Now as far as the age of the universe/creation debate, I think that’s almost immaterial when you consider the fact that time itself is a product of this physical universe, just like space, matter, energy, and gravity, and that time, as we perceive it in our current frame of reference, may not have existed the way that we understand or perceive it now during the 6 days of creation in Genesis 1. So whether or not those were six actual 24 hour days, from our frame of reference, I don’t know. “But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.” (2 Peter 3:8 NASB) Today, it is known that one’s perception of time is radically altered from what we are accustomed to in our relatively stationary existence if one could approach the speed of light. And of course, we accept that God created this universe and set all of its physical laws in place, but that God also transcends this universe as well as it’s physical laws, so He is not bound by any time, space, or matter issues in His actions.
Hi David R.,
You said,
Now as far as the age of the universe/creation debate, I think that’s almost immaterial when you consider the fact that time itself is a product of this physical universe, just like space, matter, energy, and gravity, and that time, as we perceive it in our current frame of reference, may not have existed the way that we understand or perceive it now during the 6 days of creation in Genesis 1. So whether or not those were six actual 24 hour days, from our frame of reference, I don’t know.
Yes they indeed were 6, 24 hour days, with one day of rest for creation. Your right as far as God being outside of time. He created time for us. With that being said. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night, the evening and the morning were the first day (Genesis 1:5). So here, God tells us, that one 24 hour day consists of the morning and the evening. If you continue to read Genesis 1, at the end of every creation for that day in verses, 5, 8, 13, 19, 23, and 31, it says the morning and evening were the first day, the second day, the third day and so on so forth. So God is telling us, that it took six 24 hour days of time He created for us to create what He created. Now the six 24 hour days of creation is obviously different in His perspective, but from our perspective of time that, again, He created for us, it is a literal 6 days. I pray this helps. God bless.
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Exodus 20:11 (KJV)
Yes, I tend to agree with you on this. There does seem to be a significant amount of evidence to support an “old universe”, though (at least that’s what the arrogant secular scientists would have us believe). I also realize that there are numerous OT references to The Lord “stretching out the skies” . Since God Himself is in no way bound by any of the physical laws of the universe, could that mean that He stretched the stars and galaxies (with their light) from an earth centered reference? I mean we do know the speed of light and we can be reasonably certain that the universe is sufficiently large that it would take a beam of light, even at its incredible speed, billions of years to transverse. That is one of the biggest arguments that the secularist will use to say that the universe must be billions of years old. If we can see the light of a galaxy or quasar that’s 13 billion light years away, then the beam of light must have necessarily been transversing the vast intervening space for 13 billion years. But since God has no physical bounds, He may very well have “stretched out the sky” with the beam(s) of light from extremely remote celestial objects to make them visible to us earthbound subjects (without the billions of years wait for their arrival) as a testimony to His glory and power? Also, do you accept that there could have been a vast expanse of time between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2? I’m not sure that I subscribe to that idea because that would require an existence of death (if we assume that dinosaurs actually died out 65 million years ago) before the original sin. The Bible does state that “death came by sin” so that leads me to believe that the garden of Eden was a perfect world free from death until Eve and Adam ate of the forbidden fruit. Just some personal musings and I welcome your input on this as well.
Hi David R.,
I don’t believe the universe or the earth are nearly as old as secular scientists say it is. There are numerous cave paintings around the world depicting humans with dinosaurs. Which according to main stream science should be impossible, if dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. Scientists also claim that it takes thousands or even millions of years for something to fossilize, however I have seen multiple pictures of fossilized spark plugs and other more recent inventions. They also claim that it takes at least 10,000 years for wood to petrify.Again, I have seen pictures of petrified cowboy boots, this should also be impossible according to main stream science. Although the Bible does not state the age of the earth, I do not believe its more than 7,000 to 10,000 years old. B&E made a great point on one of his articles, that there were obviously heavenly hosts that were already created when God was laying the foundation of the earth(Job 38:4-7). However, this does not prove the age of the earth or the age of the universe. Although this a cool and interesting topic, only one thing matters, and that’s the grace and salvation we receive through Christ and Him crucified. I pray this helps brother. God bless.
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Job 38:4-7 (KJV)
Yes, Collin, I would agree there is also considerable evidence that flies in the face of the so-called “fact” that the earth is 4.5 billion years old that somehow seems to be omitted by mainstream scientific journals. If I didn’t know any better, I would swear that there is a satanic conspiracy theory to suppress any true facts that would appear challenge the Darwinian status quo and to overrun the public mindset with the macroevolution propaganda. Silly me 😀
Thank you both for your thorough search, appropriate contextual use and peaceful debate, always centering on the most important aspect of any discussion of GOD and man and that is our sin debt, HIS free (yet costly) gift of eternal salvation requiring confession of sin and faith alone (but not the faith that is alone, i.e., a life reflective of faith in JESUS) in JESUS’s completed work on the cross. GOD bless you both and those who are able to glean understanding from your posts. I know I’m blessed at this time. Bye 4 now.
why do teachers teach the horse evolution if it was proven wrong 50 years ago their is also no evidence that the fox like horse was the oldest horse seance people find it in the same layer as modern horse. also and why are their trees stuck throw several layers of sedimentary rock
For me, secular sciencetist and the bible both take a lot of faith.
Hi Childofra,
I don’t need any other source to prove God created life. The Bible is the inerrant word of God and the only governing authority that abides over us all. I would never use a “textbook” to try and prove where life came from. You said, Christians always tell you to search the scriptures when it comes to this topic, well they should, because that is our “textbook”. You also said that it takes faith to believe, of course it does. A lot of things take faith, you cant get in your car and drive 70 mph down the highway without a little bit of faith. But if you read the scripture I referenced in Romans 1:20, creation itself proves God exists, His existence is clearly seen to the point where we are without excuse. I don’t see how you can look at the universe and say that its all by chance, it doesn’t make sense. The heavens clearly show his handywork. Do you not believe that to be true?
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Psalm 19:1 (KJV)
Einstein said: ”there is no case called: ‘science versus religion’. They compliment each other”!! Religion is based on the study of God’s word… Science is based on the study of God’s world, that was made by God’s word: uni-verse… The chance of ALL LIFE coming from a single celled protozoa, that happened to be floating around in space after the ‘big bang’, is more unbelievable, than the theory of ‘the God creator’!! WHO put the DNA in it, so it could divide and multiply? An ancient greek philosopher, Anaxagoras, believed in the divine ‘most high mind’, that governs the universe… Increasing scientific evidence points in the direction that there is a MIND behind the creation of the universe! Explain how each atom of matter has these tiny electrons spinning around the nucleus…how a bird or a sea turtle can migrate thousands of miles, and come back the following year to the same spot to nest…how can a penguin go for fish, and return to find it’s own baby, out of thousands and thousands of other babies that shout for their mothers…how can a caterpillar become a butterfly on the same set of DNA, without dying… It seems that the more science explains, the more new questions arise! Look at near death experiences, (NDE stories) on the internet. Angel and miracle stories… If only 0.1% were true, that would PROVE the existance of God and the supernatural! Hallelujah! Contact me: [email protected]
I expect the truth will soon reveal itself before any man has a chance to figure it out.
Hi Polecat,
The truth has already revealed itself. The only thing man has to figure out, is whether or not he will trust in our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
It says quite clearly at the beginning of the article that this ‘discovery’ has been submitted to peer review. It has not been reviewed yet. In the realm of science, that makes this a mere hypothesis; unverified conjecture.
I think I heard the other day that UC Davis is planning to duplicate it.
Hello Josh,
I think we need to recognize that at this time, the Big Bang Theory itself still hasn’t been proven universally, so it most certainly isn’t fact, but a “best guess hypothesis.” Science is about observation and reproducibility. If you can’t observe it and reproduce it, you can’t prove it, and that requires faith to stand on something that you can’t prove is even there. It may be documented that a particle behaves in a way that was predicted to fit a picture of spontaneous creation of everything, not just something, out of nothing. However, until they are able to observe spontaneous creation within a lab without any materials (i.e., no accelerants, combustible/fissible materials to incite/trigger an explosion), it can barely be called a theory and rather better a faulty hypothesis that doesn’t stand to reason. To continue to believe that in the absence of evidence is indeed faith, and therefore shouldn’t be considered superior to believing that a watch-maker built the watch or that GOD who stands outside of our understanding (Isaiah 55:8,9 – GOD’s thoughts and ways are higher than ours) and scientific capabilities created all that is or ever will be. Gravity is a law because we can observe it; conservation of mass can be observed, as can the Laws of Motion. Spontaneous creation never has and never can be observed but is doesn’t happen; it’s only imagined (and some theorists have actually stated that you have to have an imagination to accept the Big Bang theory).
GOD bless and lead you into all truth, which comes by submission to HIS will, acceptance of your (and all of humanity’s debt of sin/rebellion against GOD inherited by Adam [Romans 5:12, 17], much like inheriting an extra Y chromosome or being born with diabetes) as well as the need for someone to pay your debt [John 3:16-21; Galations 3:22; Romans 8:3,4; Hebrews 9:22,27,28] (not just remove your sin but remove the offense and therefore the coming wrath/judgement of that sin which is eternal death/hell/permanent separation from GOD), acknowledging HIM (JESUS) as Saviour and LORD, and then living a life that shows a repentant attitude [Acts 2:38] (change in thinkging from “I know what’s best” to “LORD, YOU know what’s best”). This I pray daily for myself and others, as well as those who are working feverishly to explain away GOD instead of accepting HIM and HIS account (The Bible).
Ok. I have one question and the answer will detemine (for me) if this theory is correct. But it must be answered truthfully. The scientist doing this study, was he a christian? If he was, then this theory is just nonsense he made up. If he was not a christian, then its possible that the theory is correct and still possible to be incorrect. Its not enough to make me believe in god or a greater entity. Christians and scientist cant mix. Science is religions natural enemy
Creationists use science to PROVE that evolution is a JOKE all the time. I have a few DVDs where world-renown scientists show how evolution is a joke. I got my Bachelor’s degree in biology and it is that knowledge that I use to see that evolution is a joke.
Here is one example of my knowledge that I used with an atheist relative:
How did one-celled creatures become multi-celled creatures? The closest thing that is inbetween them is a slime mold that is made up of many individuals but moves around like a single organism.
Evolutionists cannot give a reasonable answer to that question.
Another one is how the supposed ancestors of whales had their nostrils in front of their heads and somehow migrated to the top of their heads. The supposed intermediary stages don’t make sense scientifically.
Well your first mistake is, im an atheist not a creationist or an evolutionist. Second none of that proves that god exists. Yes, evolution is quite funny i agree. I dont know what god is but, i know what it isnt. I dont know how we got here but i know it wasnt god from the bible. Religion nor evolution proves how life started and we will probably never figure it out. I’m not trying to change the minds of christians or any other religions denomination. I want you to change my mind. Where is the proof that god exists? A book? Pure faith? Thats not proof. Here is a question for you stevor. What happened to all the other religions that existed before christianity? Why is this the right one to follow? Its a very young religion and there is proof that other religions were in place before christianity.
Do you have a soul? No, I’m not trying to be funny. Do you believe that there is anything beyond our physical bodies? What proof of that is there?
Sure, people say this or that about things regarding souls but people have also told of going to Heaven and meeting Jesus. If you believe you have something more than a physical body, do you pick and choose what meets your standards as to what is worth believing?
… stop evading my question. Everyone i ask that question to, always evades it with another question or doesnt respond. No i dont have a soul. No there is no after life. Not from what i have gathered over my life. No religion what so ever makes sense to me. Why should there be a life after death? What sense does it make? Why did god create this universe only to destroy it and start it all over again? And according to the bible, it will be a new world without sin. What sense does that make? Why wont it go right back to the world we have today? And Lets not forget, according to the bible, the first conflict took place in heaven. Why didnt he just create it without sin in the first place? If god never existed, he would still have to be created to help bring stability into the world. If science never existed, proof would still be there for someone to figure out.
Hi atheist, I find interesting the authority with which you state that “there is no afterlife” (even though you’ve obviously never been dead) and your attitude that since you cannot prove that God exist, that PROVES that He does not exist. Interesting but very faulty logic, as there are many of things that we cannot detect with any of our five senses, yet we accept that they exist. If you are so sure that there is no God, then why waste your time on a Christian forum arguing with people who are obviously convinced otherwise? I don’t argue with people who say they believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairly to try to convince them otherwise. Unless they are small children, I assume they are delusional and I would think that you would regard Christians with the same pity, IF you truly are convinced in the nonexistence of a Supreme Creator being.? Funny how atheists would rather believe in a total cessation of conscious existence after death than to entertain the possibility of an afterlife because an afterlife seems to necessitate that there also be a “God” and if there is a God, then there may also be a “day of reckoning”, i.e. judgment day. As far as all of the arguments that you bring up about why did God create this imperfect world (it wasn’t created imperfect- you can thank sin for “messing it up”) and why sin originated in Heaven, there are plenty of aspects of the Christian faith that I don’t claim to have an answer for, but that doesn’t mean that I am going to completely reject my faith just because I don’t ” understand ” some aspects of it any more than I’m gonna throw away my iPhone just because I don’t completely understand how it operates 🙂 You also mentioned that you wanted “to be convinced” by us “Christians” of God’s existence, but I believe you are rather trying to bolster and justify your own unbelief because deep, deep inside your innermost thoughts, you are concerned that maybe, just possibly, there could be a God and if there is, that would really spell trouble for any nonbeliever such as yourself. Lots of truth in that saying, “there are no atheist in foxholes”. I’m sure you’ll probably try to come back with some more rambling about why you don’t believe and maybe even resort to name calling but at the end of the day, why do you and so many other atheists/agnostics fight so hard against a concept that you are convinced is nonexistent if you truly are that certain of it? Why not just let us poor Christians be “delusional” and happy in our blissful ignorance?
I was reading the comments between you and atheist. So in response to your question
“why do you and so many other atheists/agnostics fight so hard against a concept that you are convinced is nonexistent if you truly are that certain of it?”
Why do christians fight so hard to prove god exist to nonbelievers?
Both christians and nonbelievers will never agree on anything so the real question would be why are these two sides constantly buttung heads when you know they will be no outcome. Its really a never ending cycle that really when one thinks about it its pointless. Christians cant convince nonbelievers there is a god and nonbelievers cant convince christians there isn’t a god.
Hi ChildofRa,
You actually did not answer David R.’s question. If you do not believe in the Bible or Christianity at all, why do you come to a Christian website? Why spend the time debating with Christians if this faith is meaningless to you? A Christian believes you are going to Hell without faith in Christ. So we share our faith to help you avoid eternal damnation. Why do you spend your time trying to attack Christianity? What is your motivation?
My answer to david r. would be we fight so hard against because as nonbelievers were constantly being told that hell awaits us unless we believe and put our faith in christ. Just because a person is a nonbeliever does not mean they are living in.
I come to christian sites to read the various opinions because this whole occult thing is pretty much a hot topic discussion among my friends so I read the comments on this site and others so I can have an idea on how christians and nonbelievers feel on the subject.
I do not attack the christian faith , I question it. As a person I was always taught never take anything on face value. I will not blindly follow a law or faith and become a closed minded individual. We have brains for a reason why not use them; we aren’t zombies. Also I question all beliefs not just christianity.
You can find evidence all day long that will support any number of theories. There just isn’t any scientific proof to go along with it. Proof of whether God exists or not is a waste of time for believers and non believers alike. All we have to examine is evidence. Those that have interest will concoct a theory from this evidence or accept some one else’s based on evidence they present. Either way it takes a measure of faith to believe anything without concrete proof.
Its not our place to judge each other for our beliefs. And certainly not Christian to belittle someone else over it. Realize that whether someone thinks they are a Christian or not they are still flesh and blood people that are given to poor behavior.
Hi Polecat,
There is tons of scientific proof that God exists. Not only does His word prove that He exists, so does His handy work (creation). Christians don’t judge people for their beliefs, we’re trying to save them from eternal damnation. However, non believers call it judging because they get defensive, they get defensive because deep down they know that Christians are right. If we were hating, then we wouldn’t be teaching people about Christ and Him crucified, and that the gift of salvation is a free gift from God. We do it because we love everybody, including our enemies. In order to save people, you have to show them sin, you have to show them that were all sinners and were all living in sin. However, when you do this, people get convicted and feel guilty. So their first reaction is to get defensive and say things like, “your judging me, stop judging me”. Get right with God, just get saved! Criminals don’t get to live in a free society right. They stay in prison. Murderers, rapists, thief’s, drug dealers, have to stay behind bars. The same won’t inherit the Kingdom of God. Hell is Gods prison and there is no parole. A judge sends those bad people to prison, because we as a society believe in justice. God also believes in justice, He is a just God. And He will send all those same bad people to Hell. My point, is if you feel like a Christian is judging you when it comes to your sin, then your more than likely guilty and your first reaction is to get defensive and call it judging. But we don’t do it out of hate, its all love. Because we want you to know, the ONLY way to be set free from the bondage of sin is through Jesus Christ. Because sin leads to death.
Hey Collin,
While I understand you accept as PROOF certain things that dose not make it so. It weakens your position to declare evidence as proof to someone that recognizes the difference. And before you think that I am challenging you I want to point out that I feel the same way as you concerning Creation and God’s Word. The thing is I can tell people that I do so out of faith based on my personal observations. I can’t demonstrate irrefutable PROOF. This makes the often lengthy debate on this matter unnecessary.
As far as being judgmental goes it is almost impossible for most people to keep it in check. This is well demonstrated by your reference to the “bad” people. We are all capable of extreme behavior and “bad”. For me this was a deal breaker when I was young. I became fed up with the hypocrisy that was rampant at church. Smokers would be lectured to by obese. Long hairs by adulterers. etc.etc. The point is we are ALL doing something that is “bad”. So I make it a rule to never point out others sins in an effort to avoid the hypocrisy. The funny part is break this rule on a regular basis just like the imperfect creature that I am.
Hello Polecat,
I have to disagree with you about pointing out someone’s sin. We are actually encouraged to do so among our brothers and sisters in CHRIST, and at some points, commanded to
Ezekiel 33:7-9
7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; BUT HIS BLOOD WILL I REQUIRE AT THINE HAND(emphasis added).
9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou has delivered thy soul.
James 5:19-20 (KJV)
19 Brethren, if any of you do err form the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
We are actively called to help our brothers or sisters as well as sinners (or as calls them, the wicked) see their utterly sinful nature and the need for salvation not just from their sins, but from the wrath of the Just GOD as a result of our sins. It hurts to point it because we’re not perfect, but only JESUS was required to be perfect now; we’re a work in progress
Philippians 1:6
6 Being confident of this very thing, that HE which began a good work in you will perform it until the day of JESUS CHRIST:
Philippians 2:12,13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is GOD which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 3:13, 14
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of GOD in CHRIST JESUS.
May you be blessed and encouraged in you witness (both in word and deed) for CHRIST in this lost, wicked, and dying world as I ask that you pray the same for me. Amen.
Thanks for your reply Ben
“Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Applies to me on a personal level. Also the one about making a fuss over the splinter in your brother’s eye and ignoring the log in your own. I don’t feel qualified to judge other people’s walk. I certainly don’t possess the knowledge and finesse to make an elegant case. All I can do effectively at this time is to extend my own mercy towards others as I feel Jesus would have. Thanks again for your comments. May our strength in Christ be a blessing to those that see and hear us. Amen
Hahahaha name calling? Now that would be the way of a christian if i did that. Only religious people get that defensive and offended. And as for rambling on, who has done more rambling and trying to get under peoples skin, as you just did in that post? That tells me that you obviously want to argue, like a good christian would. Also you are doing what a typical christian would do,reading something and twisting it into what you want to believe it says. I never claimed to have proof in the non-existance of an afterlife or a soul. As i said “not from what i have gathered” there was no “authority” in it. And if the world was’nt created imperfect, why does the bible state that no man is without sin? Which basically tells me that it had to be created imperfect. Also i never said that if you cannot prove that he exist, proves that he doesnt exist. But like you christian, im allowed to speak what i believe in.
Frankly, I think you know the answer to some of the questions that you’re throwing up (or at least you know what my answer would likely be) and I don’t think that we are accomplishing anything further by continuing to engage in a discussion on an issue that we are at polar opposites on and neither of us have any intention of changing our position on. I’ve stated my case and I’m also not backing down from my position that you are the atheist who ventured into a Christian forum looking to “pick a fight” and you’re certainly not the first one to do so and I’m sure you won’t be the last, either. B&E is gracious enough to allow dissenters into this forum to express opposing views, as long as they are reasonably civil about it. Finally, if you truly are curious and looking for answers to some of the questions that you taut, why don’t you try reading the Bible for yourself, with an open mind, and see what is actually in it? From here, all I, and other believers who follow this website, can do is pray for you that Satan’s (oh yea, I guess you don’t believe in him, either, do you?) blinders would be removed from your spiritual eyes and I will leave all future responses to your future postings to others.
Also, deep down inside, no i do not believe in god. And its up to you that believe to bring non believers over to the light side
Hi Atheist,
You know, as Christian, all I can do is present the gospel to you. I can’t change your mind, only the Holy Spirit can do that. It’s up to you to believe. It seems like the Christians you mentioned that revert to name calling and arguing, aren’t really Christians at all. And it sucks, because you now seem to have a pre conceived notion that all believers are like that. Well brother, I just want to say I’m sorry that you have been treated that way, and I love you so much and want nothing more than to see you in heaven with me worshipping the one and only true God Jesus Christ. Whether or not you believe it, Christ was crucified in our place, for the punishment of sin (1 Peter 2:24). All He wants in return, is for us to follow Him (Luke 9:23, Matthew 16:24). To follow Him, you have to believe in Him, if you Believe in Him, you gain everlasting life (John 3:16). Jesus wants us to love God, and love our neighbors as ourselves (Luke 10:27, Mark 12:30-31, Matthew 22:37-39). These are His greatest commandments. This is why it upsets me when I hear stories of “Christians” calling people names and having so much hate, because its the exact opposite of what Christ told us to do. So, I’m a Christian obviously, I firmly believe in the innerancy of Gods word. I believe its the only thing we as Christians should use to prove God exists. All scripture is God breathed (2 Timothy 3:16), and I know this because God cannot lie (Numbers 3:19, Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2). However, creation itself proves God exists. Just like you can’t have a building without a builder, or a painting without a painter, you can’t have creation without a Creator. Now I can understand that you may not see the universe as “creation”, but when I look out at the heavens, I just can’t see how this all happened by chance, that just doesn’t make sense to me. Either way, I love you. And again, I would love to see you in heaven with me. I urge you to look up some of these scriptures I referenced. If you ever wanna talk, or need some prayer, I’m always on these discussion forums here. Thank you for your time. May grace peace and mercy be unto you from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1:20 (KJV)
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
Psalm 19:1 (KJV)
Yes childofra, i agree with you. It is a never ending circle but, christians have the need and christian duty to try make nonbelievers, believe but, they never bring any proof. Just hoped and dreams and if they feel the need to spread hopes and dreams, i feel the need to ask for proof. I am an atheist and religion made me this way.
So, religion made you and atheist – ” I am an atheist and religion made me this way”. Was it a particular religion or all religions? Did you once participate in a religion? If so, which one.
See collin, there you guys go again. Just quoting the bible. A book that was written by man. And this is my story for stevor and collin. Or whoever wants to know. About 15 years ago i was a devoted christian. I went to church religiously- no point intented. I went to bible study. I went to the elderly, sick and homeless and prayed with/for them. Then one sunday in church our pastor asked us if we wanted to confess our sins and accept the lord jesus christ as our saviour. Well a few of us went up to the front of the church and we confessed our sins aloud and the pastor started praying with us and one by one i watched the people around me become “overwhelmed with the holy ghost” and they all fell to the ground laughing and got back up laughing and saying about how good they felt and how they felt the holy spirit wash over them. And i felt nothing. I stood there and i felt nothing. The pastor put his hands on me and we prayed and nothing happened. Im not complaining that i didnt fall to the ground or anything like that. I think that is quite foolish, even while i was a christian. The part that bothered me is, why did i feel nothing? I asked multiple pastors, after that, why did this happen? And my responses were, “let me speak with god and get back with you” (still waiting on that) or “god chose not to show himself to me that day because he has a plan for you” really?! Why should i believe or follow in a god that can chose if and when he wants someone to follow him? In any event, that sunday was the begining of the end for me. That one situation wasnt the sole situation that ended my faith in fairy tales but, it was the begining. There is my honest, truthful story. Have your fun with it. I’ve been called a fool by christian for that (even though the bible says not to call your fellow man a fool and there are multiple verses with jesus calling someone a fool). I’ve been called other names by the people of the church that i attended and told that thats no reason to not believe in god but,i guess everyone else but me was chosen by god on the day they decided to accept him. Atleast i went atheist and not a satanist. Have fun
Wow! At least your story does reveal the source of your bitterness. I mirror Collin’s sympathy for you at this point and it is not my intention to offend you in any way. One thing that you should consider though is that true salvation is not based on a “feeling” – it is based on the Lord’s promise “he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out”. (Can’t recall the reference off the top of my head). Also, as Collin has alluded, not everyone who claims Christianity is necessarily a true Christian. As the old saying goes, “talk is cheap”, and anyone can claim Christianity, whether it not they truly are a follower of Christ. In Matthew, Christ says that at the judgement, many will taut their good works to Him but He will say to them, “depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you”. My view is that if you were truly repentant of your sins and that you truly and sincerely asked Jesus to save you and enter your heart as Saviour, then, then you are a Christian. Now that doesn’t mean just blindly repeating words without truly meaning them from your heart and I think there are a whole lot of false Christians out there that are relying on an “abracadabra” prayer that they repeated after the preacher when there was no true change of heart. Anyway, I hope that you can sort out your spiritual condition and make your peace with God. Remember too, that Jesus said to “follow
Me”, He didn’t say “follow my followers”
😉
Hello, David R.
I believe the reference that you are searching for, David R, is John 6:37. Amen and GOD bless your desire to share the gospel. Be blessed and bye for now.
Hi Atheist,
Thank you for your comments. I have noted the many comments you have made of late criticizing Christianity, the Bible and demanding “undeniable proof.” First off, I apologize for your negative experience at the church you attended. But what you describe has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity. Falling on the ground, rolling around and laughing uncontrollably are not signs of having the Holy Ghost. You will never find any experience like that in Scripture whatsoever. Jesus Christ said of the Holy Spirit:
Had you or any of those people truly received the Holy Spirit you would have a deep awareness of your own sin. You would have burning desire to receive forgiveness for the intentional wrongs and violations of God’s Word you have committed and continue to commit each day. You would be well aware that you deserve God’s wrath, Hell and the Lake of Fire for your sins.
But instead you have come to a Christian website repeatedly mocking God, His Word and belittling those who dare to believe in The Lord Jesus Christ. Now do you really think that you were sincere when you “confessed your sins”? Did you truly have a broken heart and contrite spirit towards God? Jesus Christ told this parable:
Who do you think you are acting more like? With all due respect, you have come in with a mocking, condescending tone in many of the posts you have made. You do not need “undeniable proof” of God. Your problem is not that you don’t believe God exists. You clearly do by your own statements (i.e., saying “I don’t know what God is, but I know it’s not the God of the Bible..” etc.). Your problem is that you reject God’s authority over you and reject your own guilt before Him. So as a result you hate God. Hence you’re coming to a Christian website to try and put God “on trial”. Because in your “debunking” Christianity, you can rest assured that you are not going to be judged for your sin. And you would even try to refute Christianity and potentially dissuade others from believing (thus serving as an agent of Satan), just so you can not feel a burden to repent. This is what Jesus Christ said of the reason people do this:
Do you want to feel God? Do you want to experience His presence in your life? Then humble yourself and cry out to Him. Scripture says: “..Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.” (James 4:6). With your current mentality, you will never understand or comprehend God because you are puffed up with pride. Acknowledge your sin. Do you lie? Have you stolen? Have you hurt people? Do you think impure thoughts? I certainly, to my shame have done these things. But I am thankful that Jesus Christ gave His life and took the punishment I deserve on the cross so I can receive forgiveness I clearly do not deserve. When you are ready to truly cry out to God with a heart that understands the depth of your sin and depravity, then you will be heard. I have absolutely no doubt. But what you need to do is truly start looking for God and stop looking for a justification for your sinful lifestyle. Shaking your fist at God and trying to prosecute The Lord is not worth an eternity burning in the Lake of Fire. God wants to forgive you. God wants you in Heaven. God wants you to receive His Spirit and truly feel His presence. But until you actually desire salvation that separation, emptiness and dissatisfaction with life will remain.
If you want to continue to “challenge” the Bible, you are more than welcome to here. Opposing thoughts are welcome on this site provided they are shared in a respectful manner. However, if you truly want to know The Lord Jesus Christ and experience His Spirit, I am more than glad to help. I hope and pray you will get to know God with an open mind and humble heart. -B&E
How To Get to Heaven
https://beginningandend.com/how-to-get-to-heaven/
Thank you for your concerns and sympathy david but, i am a real atheist and a man of “seeing is believing”. God had his chance for me to find him and now if god, any god, exists and wants me to follow them then, they really need to show themself to me. Raw undeniable proof. And as to your statement of “trying to pick a fight”, i’ve stated in other posts that i am not here to bash christianity or any other religion or change your minds. I am here for you to to change my mind but, as childofra stated, its a never ending cicle for us. “It goes on and on, its heaven and hell”-black sabbath
Oh btw childofra, sometimes either side can convince the other to change their mind. For instance i have converted a former pastor to become an atheist and i have seen a fellow atheist convert to christianity. As a matter of fact, he was one of my person influences to become an atheist. It all depends on who you are and what you stand for oe believe in. But the battle of heaven and hell will never end
David R,
Why do you assume that atheist is bitter? Just because he know longer is a part of the christian faith and is here on this site having a debate with you guys doesn’t make him bitter.
I have noticed that alot with christians on sites like these thinking that people who used to be christians but are no longer are bitter. I doubt they are bitter, I have friends of many faiths that are happy with their way of life.
I was only going from his story of his disappointment that he never did feel anything when he was expecting to from a religious experience because others around him were supposedly having some great “religious experience” feeling. He said that was the beginning of the end for his Christian faith. In my mind, the obvious disappointment that he experienced, according to his own words, from not “feeling anything” and expecting to and as a result, turning a complete 180 in his faith – “I” would have to say that he had to have experienced at least some element of bitterness to have that substantial of a change of heart. And my use of that term was in no way meant as a personal attack or insult to atheist and I think he understood that himself after my last response to him. Maybe “bitterness” and “disappointment” are not as synonymous as my personal vocabulary assumes?
Thank you for realizing that childofra. I consider myself a mild mannered person. And to people that dont know me, when i greet them, they say im a nice person, until they ask me if im a christian and i tell them “no, i’m an atheist. Then their concept of me takes a sharp turn south. “evil” “confused” “BITTER” “lost” are amoung the names i’ve been given once i tell people that i’m an atheist.
You’re welcome atheist. I had it happen to me before except I have been called those names and much worst because I’m not a christian. Overall people shouldn’t assume something about a person until you know them. If I assumed all christians were brainwashed religious zealots then I would have the two best friends in the world.
I have alot of tattoos amd thats what makes people ask me if i am christian. I guess they look at my tattoos and think “he cant be christian” and kinda expect my answer to be “no im not christian”
“It is true that science does not explain everything and there may in fact be things that exist without our present knowledge. Just because science does not explain everything it does not mean everything imaginable is true until proven false. Things need to be demonstrably demonstrated with actual pieces of evidence before they should be accepted as factual claims. If you happen to agree that there is no evidence for god it does not mean that a god does not exist. However we can say that at this point in time god has not been discovered. At this point god is simply a hypothesis that has no proof or evidence and therefore should not be considered part of reality. There have been ideas in the past that have eventually been proven correct and other ideas that have eventually been proven wrong.”
Hi Atheist,
You said there is no proof for Gods existence. I completely disagree. As I said in my post earlier, Gods existence is clearly seen by creation. When you look at your automobile, do you need someone to give you proof that it was intelligently designed? Of course not, that’s absurd. You know someone built it, because it exists. Cars do not build themselves. Same goes for trees, leafs, animals and most importantly, people. The human body is the most complex machine in existence, much more complex than a motorized vehicle. It is scientifically impossible for the human body to create itself by complete chance and/or billions of years, its just as scientifically impossible for a car to do the same. This is how I know God exists. Now, I can see you saying, “OK, good point, but how do I know its the God of the Bible”. Again, if you read my earlier post, that’s up to you to decide, and up to God to change your mind. You keep saying, “its the Christians job to change my mind, or you need to change my mind”. No, its our job to preach the gospel, that doesn’t mean change peoples minds, it means to tell people about Christ and Him crucified. Its up to you whether or not you accept it. This is why I quoted tons of scripture earlier, because that’s where the gospel is. As I said earlier, the Bible is the inerrant word of God, and the only way that I can give you the gospel. If you don’t like or don’t want me to use it, then maybe you should stop coming to Christian websites and asking us to “change your mind” about Gods existence. Either way brother, I love you man, and I’m going to continue to pray for you. Peace be with you.
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:21 (KJV)
You cannot compare a car with a human being. That’s foolish. A car is a tool, like a spoon, a glass, a screwdriver. A human being is a complex entity. It is able to eat, —, reproduce . Just because you don’t know how Man appeared on earth, it’s stupid to say that some God created Him. Maybe that’s the correct answer but you don’t have proof. What you have to say is: “I don’t know, I lack information. I need to know if that’s true so I will try to figure that out by observation and tools like maths and physics”
Go study.
Disproving God is every bit as easy as proving Him. This task lies at the feet of science. The faithful do not need it.
Jose
You are correct in not being able to adequately compare a car to a human. However, if a car, in all it’s simplicity when compared to a man takes more than simple happenstance or chance occurrences to not only be assembled, but run effectively, then it stands to reason, even from a scientific standpoint, that the human body is more than chance. So a car is not a man, any more than a blade of grass is a skyscraper, but even still, if it takes a man with skill to design and build a car, then a complex human system cannot logically be created by random processes. And if you hold to this (science still cannot prove the type of macroevolution it has proposed) then you are standing on faith and not fact. Most of the supposed man fossils they’ve found have been proven to be that of the jaw bone of a pig or small chimpanzees, not pre-historic man.
And remember, science is about observation and tests that prove an observation to be true. If you can prove in a lab the type of macroevoluation (change between kinds/species), then it can be called a theory and possible a law. If you cannot prove it or observe it, then you are trusting by faith that a scientist didn’t fudge the numbers and skew them in his/her favor. However, if you acknowledge that no matter how smart or mathematically inclined you are, there is always someone greater in that arena than you, then you open up the possibility of faith in more than guesses and postulates that cannot be proven anymore than GOD’s creation of man.
And a parting thought is the fact that evolution, science, and atheism cannot explain morality. Evolution doesn’t give way to this because to show mercy is to interfere with the survival of the fittest. Without a GOD or universal standard of right an wrong, nothing is right or wrong except in the eye of the beholder. So eating children, raping women, or cheating on an exam are acceptable if it benefits an individual (this doesn’t even consider the “greater good” of the herd).
For an atheist who believes in evolution or no GOD, why should it matter if supposed Christians (those who call themselves such, but don’t live the life) hate? If there is no GOD, there is no standard of right and wrong. If we’re all just evolving, then nothing I do is wrong if it ensures my success. Might makes right, for only the strong survive and the weak are wiped off the face of existence. Why defend the rights of individuals who can’t defend themselves? You’re expending energy on someone who, in the viewpoint of evolutionary hypothesis really doesn’t (or soon via evolutionary processes won’t) matter. Morality has no place in atheism or evolution because there is nothing universal to judge everyone against. But if you believe there is a universal right and wrong, then you must also concede that it occurred before your existence, is outside of your control to interpret as you wish, and therefore is beyond your comprehension as to why or how it was instituted. That sounds greater than a mindless (without conscience or concern for the processes), but something with purpose and care for the little stuff. Just a parting thought. Please forgive me for any errors in logic and feel free to peaceful and cordially/respectful list your objections. Be blessed, may you know the peace (not in the absence of chaos, but in the midst of a storm having assurance that everything has a purpose designed by GOD and not random processes) of a GOD that loved you so much that HE didn’t make you a one-celled organism, a fly, or goat, but instead a human who could reason, understand and question your own existence and purpose as well as HIS. Bye 4 now, and again, thank you for your service.
Regards,
Ben
Hi Ben,
Very good observations. And let’s also not neglect the fact that cars, airplanes, skyscrapers, supercomputers, howitzers, ect. ect. ect. do exist thanks to the amazing (but not infinite) intellect, resourcefulness, and enginuity of humankind and these things did NOT just happen to come about by some totally undirected, random accident. And yet life, even in its simplest and most rudimentary form, is still almost unimaginably complex. So complex, in fact, that the same humankind, who has churned out a myriad of hi-tech devices that we take for granted, from the dawn of humanity to date, has yet, with all of his collective scientific effort, been able to create one single, solitary cell of a true living life form! And yet the secular scientific community expects you and me to believe that even though humanity has been totally powerless to CREATE life, in any form, yet ALL life, that we observe in all of its unimaginable complexity, just somehow got here by some totally blind and undirected cosmic accident! Now THAT seems like the height of folly to me and I don’t think that 13.7 billion years SQUARED would allow sufficient time to beat the odds against that happening! It seems that the very fact of our existence (along with everything observed in the universe around us) undeniably point to a transcendent, Supreme Creator being of INFINITE power and intellect. I think the heart of the issue is that humans, in their natural and unregenerate state, just don’t WANT there to be a Divine Creator, i.e. God, and the atheists/agnostic crowd are the most vocal protesters to this end. Becasue if there in fact IS a God, that necessitates that there is also a “day of reckoning” or a judgement day, if you will. (John 3:19 and Romans 1:18-32)
The good news is that same God wants to reconcile us to Himself and to forgive us of our sins and not judge us. (Romans 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9-13)
David R
Lol yeah you’re right childofra. I have been. Called worse as well but, i dont let it bother me.
Of course you would completely disagree, you’re a christian and thats what you do with people like me. You just disagree with us and yes it goes both ways, i know. Some people may say that only life comes from life and living things only come from other living things therefore a god must have created the first living thing or else life would have never started.
This argument uses inductive reasoning so this argument fails because it contains the fallacy called False Dilemma because it only considers two options. Either god created the first life form or life does not begin to exist. This argument does not consider the field of abiogenesis that explains how life may have come from non-life. This field includes the Miller-Urey Experiment, which demonstrates how inorganic matter can create the building blocks of life in RNA and DNA. Inductive reasoning suggests truth but does not insure it and allows for the possibility that the conclusion is false even though all the premises are true. An example using inductive reasoning would be saying every life form we know of depends on water to exist therefore all known life depends on water to exist which may not be true on other planets with different chemical compositions and different atmospheres. Just because the bible says god created us doesnt mean that he created us. This argument will never end between our kind. As i said before, science is religions natural enemy. There is no way possible that a god fearing person can call themself a scientist. Religion is based on authority, faith, hopes and dreams. Science is based on logical evidence. Its in your face. And as i stated, both science nor religion have proof on how life started. See thats the difference between atheists and religious people. We will admit that science does not prove how life “started” but, a religious person would never admit that its not logical that an invisible man in clouds created life. A scientist will read countless books over his life time and ask to read more because he still has alot to learn. A christian will read one book (the bible) and know it all.
Hi Atheist,
So if nothing is intelligently designed, can you make me a rose? Or a tree, or something as simple as a blade of grass from nothing? Of course you can’t, so what does that say about your intelligence? You seem like a fairly intelligent person. You didn’t even mention the comparison I made with the automobile. You know for a fact, that an automobile has to be intelligently designed. It is scientifically impossible for a car to build itself. So, explain to me how the human body, which is much more complex than any motorized vehicle, can make or build itself from nothing. Matter that doesn’t contain consciousness, cannot form what we are today. And the reason you won’t be able to explain it to me, is because its scientifically impossible and there are absolutely no facts to prove that theory. However, the Bible states exactly where that consciousness in matter comes from.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
But here lies the problem with you. You obviously know God exists, based on your comment from an earlier post, you just don’t know if its the God of the Bible. If you admit the God of the Bible exists, then you are also admitting that you are morally responsible to Him. And instead of repenting and turning from your life of sin, its easier to just say, “well God doesn’t exist”. That’s just a cop out for a sinner who doesn’t want to repent. That’s the truth, and I think deep down you know that to be true. And I honestly don’t believe that you really want proof. I think you come here to make fun of Christians. If I proved to you of Gods existence, you then, know that you would face a judgement, and have to turn and repent from a sinful lifestyle. And I stated before, its much easier for you to live in sin than to follow Jesus. So instead of actually searching for proof of Gods existence, you spend your time mocking the Christians that you have asked to prove it to you. Its really sad, and your living in complete bondage brother. As far as reading the Bible and knowing everything goes, yes your absolutely right. This is where real knowledge comes from. Anybody who was somewhat familiar with scripture would know this. This explains to me your ignorance of scripture, and the reason why you were a false convert. You rejected Gods knowledge, therefore He hardened your heart and rejected you. I’m still praying for you brother!
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children
Hosea 4:6 (KJV)
Hehe, I see that you’ve finally come to the same conclusion that I had in one of my earlier posted responses to atheist. And I agree, there are not too many true “atheists” in this world – someone who is totally convinced in their innermost being that there truly is no existent God and have absolutely no deep seated worries about “but what if there is?” Because if that is truly the case, then why in the world get on a Christian based website and try to argue with devoted Christians about the very root of their deeply held faith? As I answered atheist (or maybe childofra, too)? it would make no sense for me to try to argue with a consenting adult about the existence of the tooth fairy or Santa Claus and I would have to assume that any adult who subscribes to true belief in the existence of fantasy characters is delusional. By the same token, if someone is truly convinced in their heart of hearts that there is no God, then why argue with consenting adults who are convinced otherwise? Why not just assume that they are also delusional and let them be content in their ignorance? Instead, the very fact that they come onto this forum, or any other Christian based think tank and start “poking fun” at us tells me that deep inside people like this truly are concerned that maybe, just maybe, they could be wrong! Otherwise they wouldn’t waste their time “poking fun” at us. And all of the arguements that they level back at us in defense of their atheistic positions are so flawed. I cant help comment on the scientific “evidence” of the Miller-Urey experiment that atheist referred to in his last posting is a prime example. All that experiment did was show that the simplest of amino acids can be produced inside an ammonia/methane/hydrogen/water vapor based atmosphere (the “assumed” content of the primordial atmosphere “billions of years ago”) by electrical discharges into the said atmosphere. Hardly any example of life evolving from non-living material! What the results of that experiment does not address is that the introduction of oxygen, which I think we can all agree upon being essential for virtually all life, would quickly destroy the newly created amino acids. (Of course there was no free atmospheric oxygen at this stage, so I guess the newly created amino acids had to wait around a few million years for oxygen to show up – so that they could be promptly destroyed 😉 Not too many life forms that I know of that can thrive on inhaling the artificial atmosphere of this experiment. And that all amino acids artificially produced in this manner have about equal amounts of ” left-hand” and “right-hand” amino acids. And all living materials are pretty much exclusively based on left-hand amino acids. Hmm, I wonder how those details got left out of the results of that “break through” discovery on the origins of life back in 1953? That’s 61 years now – hardly recent by today’s dynamic science standards! This produced 11 of of the 20 known amino acids (according to Stanley Miller) but ALL are needed for life!
Anyway, Collin, I admire your mastery of the Scriptures and the way that you can give quick references to your quoted text.
Hi David R.
Thanks for the compliment brother. I think B&E was trying to prove the same point I was making to Atheist a few comments earlier. It usually boils down to sin. If you admit God exists, then you admit there’s a judgement, which means you have to repent and trust alone in Jesus. So if you start talking about sin, then they feel guilty and convicted. So their first reaction is to get defensive and say things like, “stop judging me”. Which is kind of ridiculous, since when did telling somebody that their doing something wrong become judging? Anyways, I told him earlier that I felt bad that he had talked to Christians who were very unaccepting and maybe a little hateful. However, after talking to him, I don’t think they were unaccepting because they were bad Christians, they acted that way because he’s a jerk! I’m sure he’ll respond and say something like ” see, Christians are bad people”. Atheist has been mocking us the entire time, its OK even as a Christian to think somebody is a jerk or acts like a child. Doesn’t mean I hate him, and as I have said in every post, I’m going to continue to pray for his salvation. Now if that isn’t love, then I don’t know what is.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:44 (KJV)
This is the very sort of meat & potato evidence that woke me up. As the best scientific theories start to unravel new ones start to get fabricated. I’m a curious sort and have always been a fan of educational programs on television. I realized in what I would call an epiphany that the ancient alien theorists program was trying to soften up our minds to accept the teaching that an alien race came here and created us. Satan is indeed just as described in the Bible and the pile of evidence to support this is everywhere you look. I thank God for opening my eyes.
Hi Polecat, yes, there’d be a world of difference between fabricating a few bricks from a mud hole and building a skyscraper, and by the same token, there’d be an even greater disparity between synthetically fabricating (or at least partially fabricating) some of the basic building blocks of DNA – that being the amino acids that Dr. Miller produced in his experiment, and creating even one single living organism from totally non-living source materials – so far, only GOD has been able to pull that one off! Even the most secular scientific journals have to admit that the source of the initial “spark of life” remains a mystery! Just like Collin stated, “The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament (atmosphere) shows His handiwork” Psalm 19:1 and “I will praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made” Psalm 139:14 and “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” Romans 1:20. Collin makes a very good point in that just like you can’t have anything that requires thoughtful design and construction to exist to just “happen to come about by pure random chance”, you cannot have a creation occur by total and random, unguided means. There must be a Creator. I could go on and on about the dark matter/dark energy mystery, what holds every element’s nucleus of multiple protons, along with neutrons, (with the exception of hydrogen, whose nucleus is a single proton) so tightly packed together when the elementary like positive charges of the said protons should cause them to instantly fly apart and pair up with a matching and oppositely charged electron from the shell(s) of the atom? Of course, life and this universe itself could not exist if that were the case.
BTW, I am no biologists nor do I have any formal higher education in biology, with the exception of one semester in basic bio. So Stevor, I seem to recall your stating that you had a bachelors degree in bio, so please feel free to “step in” if any of my statements along this subject matter are in error. 🙂
This very PROOF that you are looking for is going to be a fabrication. You will see a god and believe too if you are not careful. I had to rectify my own beliefs in this regard. The ugly fact that there are many religions among men makes you wonder what if any truth there could be. The danger of being deceived has become a daily part of life. My own skepticism channeled me to “look” harder. Only you can decide what you are going to believe.
I shouldnt have had to address the situation with the automobile. We both know how they are made. We all do but, an automobile isnt what we were talking about. You cry that i dont address your questions but, i have asked questions and have been evaded and im not complaining. Thats because i know you dont have the answers, just quotes from a book written by man and i dont answer your questions because i dont have the answers. If history has taught you and me anything, it should be that just because the majority of people believe something, doesnt necessarily make it true or right. Look at how many times we have been proven wrong in the past. Many gods such as the Christian God have contradictory characteristics that would make the god illogical if true. If a god has a contradictory nature by definition he not only does not exist but he can’t exist. For example just as a married bachelor or a square circle cannot exist because they have incompatible characteristics a god cannot exist if he also has incompatible characteristics. Here are 7 examples that show why the god of the Bible, the Tanakh, and the Qur’an cannot exist.
1. You cannot make the claim that god is omnipresent inside our space and time continuum or planes of existence ≠ while also claiming that god is transcendent outside of our space and time continuum and outside our planes of existence where he cannot be observed or tested. If any part of him exists outside of these parameters then that part does not exist. We live in the planes of existence. If your god does not exist within these parameters by definition he does not exist.
2. You cannot make the claim god is personal, has emotions, has sequences of thought and able to make decisions ≠ while also claiming he is changeless, timeless and eternal and immaterial. Being personal and having emotions and having sequences of thought occur as changes over time. But the god of the bible is supposed to be changeless and timeless. So there cannot be a personal, eternal God who makes decisions and who has emotions; if god exists, he is either a finite creature or impersonal.
3. You cannot make the claim that a god is all loving and all-powerful ≠ while also claiming this god created evil and allows evil to exist. If evil exists then why doesn’t this god who is all loving stop the evil.
4. You cannot make the claim a god is infinite in power or all-powerful ≠ while also claiming that the universe exists. The universe has energy and this energy of the universe would be taking away from god’s energy and power so we know that this god could not possibly be all-powerful since the universe has energy and power. If a god did have an infinite amount of power he would require an infinite amount of energy and mass. This infinite amount of energy and mass would result in a black hole that is infinite. Anything that has energy or mass that is not part of this black hole would prove that god is not of infinite power. In this case the universe has mass and energy and shows that god could not possibly have an infinite amount of power.
5. You cannot make the claim god is omniscient and knows the future ≠ while also claiming that he has free will and can change his mind. If a god does know the future then he could not change the future because his mind would already be made up so there would be nothing to change.
6. You cannot claim god is perfect ≠ while also claiming he is a creator. This is because being perfect means having no wants or needs so there would be no reason for him to create anything. If he needed to create something this would make him imperfect.
7. You cannot claim god is just ≠ while also claiming god is merciful. If god is just he is treating the person exactly how they deserve to be treated. If god is merciful he would be treating a person better than they deserve to be treated. There is no proof or logic behind your kind of god. Let me ask you a few questions. What would this universe be like without a god? How would your life change if god suddenly disappeared? Would tragic events happen randomly to people? Would disease and hunger kill people suddenly? Would people act like monsters? For example would you then get the urge to go out into the world on a bloody rampage and end up killing, raping and pillaging cities? These things do happen anyway regardless of whether or not a person says there is a god. People also known as homo-sapiens got along just fine for 200,000 years without the Christian God and the 10 commandments or the Code of Hammurabi which was created in 1790 B.C. While most people can get along just fine and follow a social order there are a few individuals who will always act cruel to others. Also horrible things will continue to happen regardless of there being a god or not. It appears the universe continues to function and operate in a manner without a visible god who is in control. If god does exist he does not seem caring or concerned with life and he seems to be indifferent to human existence. It would seem that the universe is indistinguishable between a god existing and no god existing because nothing in our world would change at all if a god were real and suddenly he disappeared one day. The universe and our world would continue as it is now regardless of this god existing.Religion keeps people fearful, disregards intelligence, curtails liberty and creativity and celebrates death. Religion has polluted our earth more than coal or nuclear waste ever could. Religion does not deserve any respect because 1. It offers no respect because it goes against our human nature by telling us we are worthless, unclean and deserve punishment for having done nothing wrong. 2. It offers no proof. With religion evidence is undesirable because it would remove the need for faith. My closing argument:The berden of truth is on you. Making extraordinary claims needs extraordinary evidence. You are the one making outlandish claims of an intelligent being that we cannot see or observe in anyway, other then a book of miracles. There is no observible evidence of your deity and therefore, no proof of existence. I am the non-believer, you are the believer. Make me believe. It says in 1 Peter 3:15, that as a Christian you must always be willing to give a reason for what you believe and must provide evidence for what you think is the truth. If you don’t respond or can’t respond then you are not doing your job.
Hi Atheist,
All those bad things you mentioned happen because of sin. This is why God manifested Himself in the flesh. So one day, we can be with God free from all that sin. However, the only thing restraining satan, is the Holy Spirit, which is located in every born again believer. When the Church is raptured, the Holy Spirit goes with it. So your question was, “if God just vanished, would all those things keep happening”. I’ll say this, when the Holy Spirit is raptured with the Church, its going to get much worse, good luck!The scripture you referenced in 1 Peter 3:15 doesn’t tell us that we need to “change unbelievers minds”. It says to “be willing to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason for the hope you have”. Which is exactly what I’ve done in every single comment to all you posts. This statement you have made shows your blatant ignorance of scripture. You have completely contradicted yourself. You tell me to follow 1 peter 3:15, which the only way to give you the reason for my hope is by presenting you the gospel. The gospel is only located in the Bible. And obviously I have done exactly that by giving you the necessary scriptures. But when I do that, you tell me that I keep referencing a “book written by a man” and that’s it completely invalid. So is there is no changing your mind. Your like a little child who whines whether they get their way or not. I’ll just go back to my original point. You only choose not to believe in God because your more than likely trying to justify living a sinful lifestyle. I’ll say it again, if you admit God exists then your admitting that your also morally responsible to Him. As I bring up this point more, I notice that your anger towards God is showing more, and it seems that your just whining and crying with anger more than trying to prove a point. Why is it that you an atheist, would spend so much time and energy refuting something that you don’t believe even exists? These comments you have posted only prove that your lost, but that deep down, you are actively searching for Jesus. I believe I have successfully given you the reason for the hope I have in multiple scriptures in my earlier posts. Again, its not my job to make you believe, its my job to present the gospel to you. I dare you to open up the book of John, pray and ask God to open your heart for understanding, and start reading. If I’m right, and deep down you are truly seeking God, then He will show Himself to you. What are you scared of? Come on brother, I love you and I’m praying for you.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Revelation 3:20-21 (KJV)
Hi Collin,
“You only choose not to believe in God because your more than likely trying to justify living a sinful lifestyle. I’ll say it again, if you admit God exists then your admitting that your also morally responsible to Him.”
“These comments you have posted only prove that your lost, but that deep down, you are actively searching for Jesus.”
These statements you made to atheist are you serious?
1. You do not know him outside of this forum, so why do you just assume that he is living a sinfully lifestyle? What if someone on this forum assumed because you are christian that you are closed-minded, paranoid among others things, not that wouldn’t be nice know would it?
2.just because atheist comments on this forum does not mean he is lost or searching for Jesus Christ ( who by definition technically is a demigod).
3. All nonbelievers are not searching for jesus nor are we lost. We have brains are putting them to use. Mankind passes off greek, celtic, african, egyptian and other stories about gods and such as myths and legends that we know do not exist -have you ever seen a fairy or mermaid? By when it comes to islam, judaism & christianity mankind is supposed to automatically take it as truth and not question it. Im sorry but why should we question these 3 faiths every other religion is constantly being called false, and satan in disguise trying to tempt mankind from christ -sounds a bit fishy to me. So yes nonbelievers are going to question not only these 3 faiths but others as well because im honestly suppose to believe
1. A talking snake tempted a naked woman in the garden to eat a fruit.
2. Adam and eve born 3 sons-where did their wives come from?
3. Mary who concieved a child without sexual intercourse and joseph was just okay with his future wife baring the child of another being?
There are more but I dont want this post to be too long.
Hi Childofra,
You said,
1. You do not know him outside of this forum, so why do you just assume that he is living a sinfully lifestyle? What if someone on this forum assumed because you are christian that you are closed-minded, paranoid among others things, not that wouldn’t be nice know would it?
I assume , because we are all sinners and fall short of Gods glory (Romans 3:23). Let me ask you this, and these questions are for you and atheist. Have you ever lied before? Have you ever taken something that doesn’t belong to you, irrespective of its value? Have you ever used Gods name in vain? Jesus says if you look at a woman with lust, you’ve committed adultery with her in your heart. Have you never looked at a woman or man with lust? The Bible says, if you’ve broken one commandment, you’ve broken all of them (James 2:10). So by that admission, your both lying, theiving, blasphemous, adulterers at heart. That’s pretty serious! No wonder your scared to face God on judgement. No wonder you spend so much time trying to prove God doesnt exist. Like i said earlier, its easier for you to say “God doesnt exist” so you you can justify your sinful nature, than to repent and trust in Jesus. However, you know exactly what God did so that guilty sinners wouldn’t have to perish. I dont need to know anybody personally to know that their a sinner, I’m just as much of a sinner. I’ve done all those things too. But I’ve asked Jesus to forgive me, and I’ve repented. Repent doesn’t mean to just confess, but to turn from them.
You said,
All nonbelievers are not searching for jesus nor are we lost. We have brains are putting them to use
Of course your lost. That’s why non believers spend so much time searching for the origins of the universe. If you weren’t lost, then why spend so much time trying to prove something that you don’t believe even exists. Its like the old saying, “Atheists trying to prove the origins of the universe, is like a mountain climber trying to get the very top of a very tall mountain. He spends so much time, and so much effort, and gets what seems like, nowhere. Little does he know, there’s a group of Christians waiting for him to get close to the top so they can help him up”. Now sure, I may not have all the answers, but I know this. “in the beginning God created the heavens and earth”(Genesis 1:1). And because I’m a Christian, that means I don’t think, or don’t use my brain? Just because I don’t trust in western science, and trust in the inerrancy of Gods word doesn’t mean I’m an idiot. No more than 150 years ago, western science thought the world was flat. That’s just stupid! 50 years from now, western science will look back and say, “wow, I can’t believe we thought the universe started with a big bang”. Again the fact you spend so much time bashing the gospel on a Christian website only proves that your lost , and that your willing to drag anyone down to your level of depression. Sure that might sound a little hurtful, but your posts only prove that you can’t stand the fact that Christians can be perfectly happy and content with their faith. So you come on this site to make fun of us, and say things like, “you don’t use your brains”. I get it, we as Christians are promised eternal life in heaven, whats your promise? What do you have to live for? Its must be sad knowing, that this fallen world is all you have to live for. I can see how that could cause clinical depression. But that doesn’t give you the right to bring everybody else down too. Do me a solid, pray to God, in the great name of Jesus. Ask Him to open your eyes and your heart for understanding. Read the book of John, and after every chapter, pray for the same thing again. If your heart is truly willing, Jesus Christ will show Himself to you. I’m still praying for you.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6 (KJV)
I never denied that I nevered lie and I dont focus on the opposite sex my focus is education, males aren’t going no where. Also I respect my mom and father but I dont see how lieing automatically means I’ve commited adultery & theivery among other things. Also its funny how apparently im a sinner and according to you cause I didnt know you were a doctor or psychologist to say im clinical depressed , so am I suicidal as well? Also you really shouldnt assume everyone has commited some sort of sin because you did. d stop assumming that because you have commited some sins everyone else must have too. The average woman on this planet engages in pre martial sex , as for me im still a virgin.
Also you still haven’t answered the other questions I have written in my previous post.
How is me asking questions dragging anyone down? As I stated before im a human being and have every right to question authority and faith because when something doesnt sound right you’re suppose to question. Me posting on this site doesnt mean im not happy im perfectly happy with my life, im in college the first in my family to do so. Im not on drugs, I dont party , got a good head on my shoulders, im a virhin so im not sleeping with random men and getying knocked up. So yes im happy with the way my life is and if question a religious text or a persons faith makes me unhappy then christians would be unhappy to because you question every other belief system except your own and if their is any sin that mankind is truly guilty of including you christians is pride.
Pride is an inwardly directed emotion that carries two common meanings. With a negative connotation, pride refers to an inflated sense of one’s personal status or accomplishments, often used synonymously with hubris. With a positive connotation, pride refers to a satisfied sense of attachment toward one’s own or another’s choices and actions, or toward a whole group of people, and is a product of praise, independent self-reflection, or a fulfilled feeling of belonging.
” Pride comes before the fall”
Hi Childofra,
I know your a sinner, just as we all are. You said that you never denied lying, which means you have lied before right? What do you call someone who lies? A liar. And don’t tell me that you never once lusted after another person before. I think its awesome that your saving yourself for marriage, however, just cause your a virgin, doesn’t mean you’ve never lusted. Even if the only commandment that you’ve broken is lying, that is transgressing the law. Those who are not in Christ Jesus are still under the old covenant. You will be judged by the ten commandments. Sis is sin in the eyes of God.
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 (KJV)
I don’t deny that you might have a good head on your shoulders. But you said it before, mankind is not perfect. Your post makes it seem that you don’t deserve to be judged by God, because, there’s a couple commandments that you haven’t broken yet. That’s not the way it works sister. Your also getting much more defensive in your comments. I stated earlier to Atheist, that usually happens when someone is guilty. I think your feeling convicted, so your first reaction is to get defensive. Just want to let you know that I love you!
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Matthew 12:36-37 (KJV)
Sweetheart , I got defensive because you stated that I was depressed, clinically depressed. So yeah im gonna get defensive because there are people who actually have that condition and to just just state tgat a person on a forum is clinically depressed is not okay.
Also not everyone has lust , I know it maybe a shock to you but no I havent lust in my thoughts about the opposite -my mind is focus one thing and that it my education. I have no time to be worrying about men.
Still you haven’t answered my questions, so I will post them again.
1. A talking snake tempted a naked woman in the garden to eat a fruit.
2. Adam and eve born 3 sons-where did their wives come from?
3. Mary who concieved a child without sexual intercourse and joseph was just okay with his future wife baring the child of another being?
4. Where did evil come from? If god is all powerful and ccreated everytjing and say that it was good then where did sin and evil come from?
5. This goes to the 4th question.
Lucifer an angelic being eventually becomes evil by the sin of pride but he wasn’t created evil (everything good made is good) so where did the sin and evil manifest from?
Hi Childofra,
The reason I said you were clinically depressed, is because you spend so much time bashing the gospel and those who put their faith in it. I find that incredibly depressing. I spend my time preaching the gospel, because its my job, and so I can show people that there is everlasting life. What do I gain if convert to atheism? Absolutely nothing, that to me is what’s depressing. Sorry if I offended you, just speaking the truth. I still love you! Now for your questions.
A talking snake tempted a naked woman in the garden to eat a fruit?
Yes, (Genesis 3:1-6). As I said before, I believe in the inerrancy of Gods word, I believe it means exactly what it says.
Adam and eve born 3 sons-where did their wives come from?
From Adam and Eve. Now I can see what your thinking. Incest right? Back then, especially in smaller villages with low populations, it was a very common practice and wasn’t frowned upon like it is in our modern society. Plus their DNA was much purer than ours is today. Today, the result of incest usually produces mentally challenged offspring. It wasn’t like that back then, their DNA wasn’t corrupted or tainted like ours is today. They received a command from God to be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28). The thought of “incest” wasn’t an issue, only our very recent society looks down on this. In fact, a lot of countries still do this today.
Mary who concieved a child without sexual intercourse and joseph was just okay with his future wife baring the child of another being?
Actually, Joseph wasn’t OK with this originally. Let’s read.
Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Matthew 1:19 (KJV)
He felt, you could say ashamed. He didn’t want the public to know his wife was pregnant, because he hadn’t layed with her yet. However, while he was sleeping, an Angel visited him and told him what was going on. Let’s read.
0 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
Matthew 1:20-25 (KJV)
So, once the Angel gave him the scoop, he was absolutely OK with it. Being a man who was more than likely familiar with scripture, the angel referenced Isaiah 7:14. Verses 24 and 25 show Josephs obedience to the Angels instructions and his ultimate obedience to the will of God. Having God conceive his child, is different than his wife sleeping with another guy, God is not just some “other being”.
The answer to question 4 is satan. You already knew that. So let’s go to number 5.
Lucifer an angelic being eventually becomes evil by the sin of pride but he wasn’t created evil (everything good made is good) so where did the sin and evil manifest from?
You kind of answered your own question. Pride. But let’s see what scripture says.
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:15-16 (KJV)
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:12-14 (KJV)
So as you can see, the sin manifested itself within satan. As you said, pride was his downfall. He thought he could be higher than God. Satan had in a sense, the same choice we have. You can choose to follow God, or let your pride get in the way, and follow your own lusts. Now I know your argument is, “well why did God even create satan if he knew he was going to sin and cause us to sin”. Because of sin, we have Jesus, because of Jesus, we can be with God. Again, you might say something like, “but Jesus wouldn’t have to come if God just wouldn’t of created satan in the first place”. I personally believe its part of divine plan that we will probably never understand. The mystery of godliness is great (1 Timothy 3:16). It seems you have way too much interest in satan. Maybe if you had more interest in Jesus, the Bible might seem more clear. It doesn’t matter how you think things should of happened, or could of happened, they happened the way the did, and this is where we are. The only way to save you from eternal damnation is Christ and Him crucified. Satan ruined everything and will suffer greatly for it. But God manifested himself in Jesus of Nazareth and died for you, so you won’t have to suffer with him! I hope I answered
Your questions properly, and I pray it helps. Now that i answered your questions, will you please, open up the book of John, pray that God will open your heart and eyes, and try reading it without a presumptive feeling about the Bible. Just kind of start fresh! Love you sister!
What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Philippians 1:18 (KJV)
Questioning a religion is not bashing a religion. Also so the sin just one day pop up in satan……….that is a bit hard to believe same for joseph. So his future wife gets knock up an angel tells him what going on and he just okay with it, I seriously doubt he was truly okay with that. ( god is a being different from mary and joseph)
The mystery of godliness is great – mysterious really are not great. It leaves open to many unanswered questions.
See, you’re never satisfied with any answer, although Collin has meticulously addressed each of your questions and as long as your heart is (ok, let’s say “hard” if you don’t fancy the term “cold”) to spiritual matters and the concept of God, then you’ll never be satisfied with whatever answer that Collin, or any other Christian, for that matter, gives you, no matter how compulsive the argument is, because the bottom line is that you do NOT want to believe! (Sorry for the run on sentence) ” For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23. “All” means you, me, Collin, atheist, and everyone that you’ve ever known or ever will know. “All of our righteous acts are as filthy rags” Isaiah 64:6. And “there is none that doeth good, no not one.” Psalm 14:3, Rom 3:12. Belief in Jesus Christ’s substitutional sacrifice for us on the cross and His resurrection and repentance of our sins is the only hope that any of us have for fellowship and reconciliation with God. Rom 6:23, Rom 5:8, Rom 10:13. You and atheist have accused us as “Christians” as being closed minded, but its apparent that you and he are also very closed minded because you both completely shirk off any credible argument or response that is raised in response to your attacks. I have to mirror Collin’s advice in that if you SERIOUSLY want to “find God”, you must humble yourself (Luke 18:14, James 4:6) -humility is something that neither you nor atheist seem to have an over abundance of – and start reading the Bible with a truly open mind (the book of John is a great place to start). Otherwise, if you are just here to mock and poke fun at our faith with no intention of truly searching it out, I would suggest taking your future diatribe to a more sympathetic audience. I truly hope and pray that you (and atheist) WILL truly research it with an open mind, though. Lee Strobel (google him if you’ve never heard of him) was a “hard hearted” atheist journalist who did truly research Christianity for two years and ended up becoming a devout Christian, going on 30+ years now.
Well his answers lead to more questions. We know a lot about how our brain functions however there is still things we don’t know about it. I didnt just disregard his answers it just led to more questions.
Also never did I say I was an atheist.
When did questioning becoming mocking and poking? Didn’t know that asking question to things that don’t make sense logical was insulting or mocking. If you feel that why I am truly sorry but it won’t stop me from asking questions.
Good for mr. Strobel , just wonderful & I have read the bible a majority of the old testament – lots of questions and things that just dont make sense. However I will just post my questions on my blog since asking them here is just so offense to you all.
B&E,
I will back on yyour website to if you have written anything about the new biblical theme movies coming up like left behind, exodus and there’s another its a thriller about the rapture for research purposes.
Hi ChildofRa,
We will be publishing articles on Exodus and Left Behind as their dates in the box office approach. As for the other film, I’m not sure what you’re referring to but if you know the name please let me know. Thanks. -B&E
Bravo, bravo, Collin! You’ve held your own quite well against not one, but two cold hearted skeptics. I have been following responses with anticipation to get a few pointers for my own apologistic arsenal. Your dialogue with atheist reminds me of a debate between John Lennox and Richard Dawkins 😉 Fight the good fight and keep the faith, brother.
Sweetie, I am not cold heart , a skeptic yes but not cold hearted.
Atheist,
Just an observation, but first, forgive my manners, hello. I pray that you’ll thoughtfully consider what I have to say. All of the things that you enumerated as to why GOD couldn’t exist or the incompatibilities that you listed are really paradoxes.
Paradox – a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning form acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory.
By this definition, it easily points out how you or I could come to the conclusion that GOD cannot exist if HE is the ultimate good and yet HE created beings that HE foreknew would become evil. How could that possibly be? Yet, I posit the fact that neither you nor I are the smartest beings on this planet or to have ever existed. There are things that no matter how deeply we delve into them, we will never find a satisfactory answer. And so, like most Christians, I revert to the Bible to point out the unsearchableness of GOD’s understanding (Romans 11:33).
Psalm 139:1-13
Psalm 139:1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
Psalm 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my though afar off.
Psalm 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
Psalm 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Psalm 139:5 Thou has beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Psalm 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
Psalm 139: 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? Or wither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou are there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psalm 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psalm 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
Psalm 139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Psalm 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
This Psalm would seem a paradox, especially in verses 7-12, as GOD is everywhere at once, especially in hell, a place that most people assume GOD won’t be. But the scriptures let us know that the enemies of GOD (all who deny HIM as LORD while they can until they can’t – Luke 12:9; Philippians 2:10,11) will be tormented before GOD and HIS angels (Revelation 14:10, 20:14,15). It is likely that since GOD can be everywhere at once and yet outside of time (a paradox, not an impossibility) that the only presence of GOD that can be felt in Hell will be HIS wrath, anger, justice. What a terrible place to be!
Isaiah 55:8,9 states that GOD’s ways and thoughts are higher than ours, and Job 38-41 is GOD letting Job and be default all who read HIS Word (Bible) know that there isn’t an answer that would be adequate or understandable for us with such finite being/understanding from an infinite and incomprehensible being. And how do you define logic? For the person who derives pleasure from pain, it is illogical to stop when you can see them suffering. Where do you derive your standard for logic, anyhow? How can you say, if there is no universal standard of right and wrong or that there is no GOD, a being who would set into motion standards and laws to be obeyed (as in the Bible) that there is a correct way of understanding statements? By acknowledging that there is a logical way of looking at things or asserting that there is only one logical way of viewing a proposition, you must concede that the standard for this logic was set in place by powers outside of your understanding and unanswerable to your questioning. All I am stating, because someone wiser and smarter and more profound in understanding and performance stated before me, is that we speculate on things that we haven’t observed and therefore cannot truly comprehend (Job 38:2).
Please reconsider the idea that GOD doesn’t exist, because if you’re wrong, and you’ve already acknowledge that there are things that you don’t know (and should include that you don’t know that GOD doesn’t exist because there is no empirical way to prove/disprove HIS existence), how terrible an eternity of torment will be! Not just for the punishment, but missing out on the purpose for which all of mankind was created, GOD’s glory and finding true fulfilment (Isaiah 43:7; Luke 12:32). You may not fall down laughing in the aisles, you may not experience ecstasy or bliss, but you will have something to believe in. I’m not sure what you believe in, and don’t propose to know, except to say that it cannot possibly provide the security that faith in GOD does. Not saying that I don’t have questions, but I am saying that I know to WHOM I can take them to and WHO will give me the answer I need. Acknowledge your sin-debt and the cost of Hell, that JESUS was who HE said HE was (and HE did exist – more evidence for his existence than Plato, Caesar or any other ancient or recent historical figures) and that HE died to pay that debt, and then submission (much the way you submit to the police, local government or even a significant other in relationship) to following HIS Will as outlined in HIS WORD. Be blessed to rediscover the peace that passes all understanding (Philippians 4:7).
Regards,
Ben
I like you childofra, you make alot of good point but, christians wont see them because they have a closed mind. They are affraid to think outside the box. They do not ask things like- why? Or How? Because they know there is no proof in the bible and they refuse to accept the evidence thats in their face. I must ask you childofra, do follow the egyptian faith of horus?
No I don’t follow the egyptian faith of horus. I just like egypt more specifically ancient egypt been fascinated with its history since I was a child.
Ok cool. Was just wondering based on your name
See, there you christians go agian. Judging and name calling. The typical christian way when you get offended or turn deffensive. You really make me laugh. Its rediculous how you think of this as a competition, when all i want is answeres to questions that you obviously have no answeres for. Because all you are doing is evading them and turning them into more questions and name calling. Christians were the foundation of the word hypocrite. Yes i am name calling but, atleast i admit it. Christians are nothing but hypocrites. They argue with nonbelieves, wont/cant answer the nonbelievers questions, then when the nonbeliever is tired of being evaded, they walk away and the christian waltzs round with his chest out in victory, like they won. You didnt win, you didnt make me believe in god, you just made me believe even more that there is no god. Lmao real cute, real cute. Dont let them get to you childofra. They are christians, nothing but school yard bullies.
Hi Atheist,
Actually, Ive answered your questions to the best of my ability. Which of your questions did I not answer? And I don’t know how many times I can say this, but its not my job to make you believe in God, its my job to present the gospel to you. So im judging, because I made you realize your a sinner? No one here is getting defensive but you brother. Your last post proves your a guilty sinner, as we all are.
Laugh and scoff all you want, that doesn’t change the truth. And yes, there are countless immaterial things that science cannot obtain empirical for evidence to prove or disprove, like human consciousness, thought, origins of languages, altruism, the aspect of time itself, ect. that we accept as factual because we can see the results of these concepts. And creation is the result of a Creator. Not that hard for me to see that. Funny thing is the Bible, with which you show such total and complete disdain for, discusses people just like you.
2 Peter 3:2-7 “(2)That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: (3) Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, (4) And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
You know, there are plenty of things in this life that I cannot explain, that often don’t even seem logical but yet I accept them as factual. And the Bible even addresses your question of God’s “logicality”,
Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.” You cannot use human logic to comprehend the Supreme Creator of the universe Who created, but also transcends, the physical laws of the universe (yes, that includes time, space, matter, and energy). You are deadlocked in that thought that everything must be explainable in material means or you just do not accept its viability.
And here is another passage from that Book that you so disdain, atheist. Hebrews 6:4-6 “(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
When I read about your so-called past “Christian” life, and your current total and complete disdain for it, this was the first passage that came to my mind. I sincerely hope this isn’t your situation, but from listening to your ranting, yes that’s right – ranting, it sure seems to paint a picture perfect portrait of you.
I will exit this conversation at this point, because we are no longer accomplishing anything beyond a cyber shouting match. If you unequivocally reject the authority of the Bible, then there is really nothing else for us to discuss. I will leave you with one parting thought, though. You’d better hope that you’re right, because IF you are right, then 100 years from now, it won’t make any difference, but IF I am
right …..
Have a nice day.
Hi Atheist,
You said:
Now let’s look at just a sampling of some of your recent comments that were made unsolicited in different threads from this one where you were not debating with Collin or David:
So who is name calling? Who is seeking a sincere substantive discussion. As I said before your issue is clear: you hate God and you despise Christians for loving Him and proclaiming the Gospel. If you were truly so anti-religion, you would surely be on jihadist websites convincing Muslims that their God is false, correct? These are religious believers who are openly advocating the murder and violent subjugation of others. Are you speaking out for the millions of young women in nations like Somalia and Ethiopia who are suffering through genital mutilation? If so, provide the links to the discussions you are having with these religious believers as I would love to read them.
But as I suspected from the tone of your remarks, this is not about society or helping a cause or a search for truth. It is about your clear anger at God because of your guilt over your own sin. You know you are a sinner and reject God’s authority. And attacking Christianity is a way to try and assuage your guilt and to continue to living a part from God with no remorse or repentance. So you come to a Christian website hurling insults and demanding proof and then want to be taken seriously as someone sincerely seeking truth.
And as far as “winning” the debate with non-believers, it is not my job to “make you believe.” I can’t make you or anyone else believe anything. My duty as a Christian is to share God’s Word. If you are too full of pride to not receive it, that is an issue in your heart. When it comes to winning and losing, Christians have already won. The moment we believed the Gospel, we win because we are not going to Hell and will not be roasting in torment for our sins for eternity. That’s what this is about. It is not about winning a forum discussion. It’s much, much bigger than that.
As I said before, you will never understand God as long as you have so much pride and anger towards Him.
But the good news is, you are still alive. You are still breathing the very air God puts in your lungs. So you can be forgiven. God is more than willing to forgive on a level humans cannot even fathom. Why? Because He loves you. And unlike EVERY OTHER RELIGION in the world, you do not have to work, do good deeds, or carry out some task in order to receive it. You merely have to believe in Him.
Btw christians, brilliant strategy i must say. “Just annoy the nonbeliever until he walks away. That will make him believe! That will show him god exists!” Brilliant!
You have answered none. Only with quotes from the bible. I laid my cards on the table, do you need me to quote them again?… its the really long post where i tell you that god (if true) is not logical. Because he has contradictory traits. And if nothing else in this world can exist with those traits, nither can god. If he exists, why are there not wizards and dragons and other mythical beasts on earth? They all came from some type of religion but, you christians call them a myth as a copout. As i stated “The berden of truth is on you. Making extraordinary claims needs extraordinary evidence. You are the one making outlandish claims of an intelligent being that we cannot see or observe in anyway, other then a book of miracles. There is no observible evidence of your deity and therefore, no proof of existence.”
Since most christians just dont understand nonbelievers (atheists most of all) and claim that we are all sinners (yes collin, by your christian deffinition, i am a guilty sinner and i am comfortable admitting that considering i dont have to worry about judgment from your god) read this closely and understand atheists/atheism. And yes, i already know you are going to do what christians do best, read something then twist it into what you want to believe it says. And i know this next part will be difficult for you but, read it with an open mind…
What an atheist is and what atheism is about.
Millions of people around the world have good, ethical, meaningful lives with purpose without the belief in a god. Atheism is not a religion and as atheists simply do not have a belief in gods. Atheists do not claim with absolute certainty or absolute knowledge that they know there is not a god which is a common misconception. However, they do say that they do not have a belief in a god at least in relative terms because everything we understand about the universe and how it functions and operates does not imply a god exists. Atheists are people who take responsibility for their own actions both good and bad because they do not claim a god intended them to carry out an action or say they did something because it was what a god wanted them to do. Supernatural phenomena such as the belief in a god have not met the burden of proof because they have not been demonstrably demonstrated and verified with empirical evidence. You should not go about life assuming things exist and then require these things to be disproven before you dismiss them. If you were to go about life this way you would end up believing everything you were told. Instead you should assume that things do not exist until these things have first been demonstrably demonstrated or discovered to be true. Most atheists also believe in human dignity and believe humans have the ingenuity and willpower to solve many of our global problems. Atheists believe that humans are able to solve their problems with their own intelligence and the help of fellow humans without trying to invoke an invisible friend to do it for them. If you are a person who believes in a god you probably do not believe in the 100’s of gods that you could believe in such as but not limited to Zeus, Thor, Apollo and Poseidon. If so then you are an atheist in respect to those gods. Other atheists also do not believe in the gods just listed but unlike you they simply choose to believe in one less god than you do.
2. Here are 7 reasons most atheists do not have a belief in a god.
1. There is no evidence for a god. People making a god claim have the burden of proof. It is the claimant’s job to prove his case.
2. There is no clear or coherent definition of a god. Most of the times gods are described differently.
3. There is no agreement about the nature or moral standard for these supposed gods.
4. There are no good arguments for the existence of a god. The Cosmological, Teleological and Ontological arguments along with the other arguments have been refuted with naturalistic or alternate explanations that do not rely on the supernatural that has never been proven to exist.
5. There are no good replies to the positive arguments against a god such as the problem of evil.
6. There are many things that could be possible such as fairies, leprechauns, gremlins and unicorns. While these things listed are possible they are unlikely to exist. It is important to remember that just because something is possible it does not make it is probable.
7. There is no need for a god. You can have a perfectly good and full life without a god.
3. Here are the reasons atheists speak out against religion and gods.
1. It is illegal for an atheist to hold public office or testify in court in several states including Arkansas, Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Tennessee. Most atheists want to be treated equally and have the same rights as everyone else.
2. Most atheists are sick and tired of religious standards being imposed on society such as Blue Laws that restrict their freedoms. Some good examples are not being able to buy or sell alcohol or automobiles on Sundays in places like Minnesota, Georgia, Oklahoma and Utah. There are other crazy Blue Laws such as not being able to have horse races on Sundays in Illinois.
3. Religious institutions added “under God” to our pledge in 1954 and “in God we trust” to our currency and as the United States motto in 1956. Atheists see this as an attempt to set up a theocracy in the United States and understand how these actions by religious institutions undermine and ignore our constitution’s “Separation of Church and State.”
4. Atheists are tired of religious organizations that try to rewrite history by claiming that the United States was “founded on Christianity” and is a “Christian nation” when in fact it was not as stated by The Treaty of Tripoli which was unanimously passed by congress and signed by the president in 1797 A.D.
5. Atheists are fed-up with religious people throughout history who have tried to control the thoughts and sexual practices of people and who have hindered scientific progress in areas such as Evolution and Stem Cell Research.
6. Atheists dislike fanatics around the world who are killing people and blowing themselves up in the name of their religions and their supposed gods.
I’ll say this david, since i know you will still read the forum. If god exists, i hope he has a really good excuse… have a nice day. From your friendly neighborhood atheist
On to educating christians a little more… did you know that we also have our own 10 commandmemts?
1. Thou SHALT NOT believe everything you are told.
2. Thou SHALT seek information and evidence constantly.
3. Thou SHALT educate and teach each other about science and history.
4. Thou SHALT NOT forget the atrocities committed in the name all the gods throughout history.
5. Thou SHALT leave valuable contributions for humanity and be a good steward of our planet Earth.
6. Thou SHALT live in peace with other humans and other living organisms.
7. Thou SHALT live your one life you have to the fullest and to the best of your ability.
8. Thou SHALT follow a form of ethics and beliefs that does not harm anyone and tries to minimize harm.
9. Thou SHALT maintain a strict separation between Church and State.
10. Thou SHALT support and encourage other people to follow these 10 commandments.
See that last one? It says “… support and encourage…” not force it down peoples throat…
Hi Atheist,
Wow! I think I proved my point. In fact, I think you proved it for me. You have probably spent most of your day, copying and pasting crap from some atheist website that justifies your beliefs. Notice on that last post, you said “support and encourage, not shove it down peoples throat”. However, your last 3 or so comments, show nothing but childish anger, and they seem very throat shoving you could say. You came to this site! You came here needing and wanting proof of Gods existence! I believe all the Christians that have answered your questions here, have done so successfully. Which leads me to my next point, you don’t want proof, you came here looking for an argument. Which I don’t blame David for walking away. Arguing with you is like arguing with a weeping child, who’s crying because they haven’t gotten their way. Every time we give you an answer your like, “well there you go again typical Christians, giving me an answer fromthe Bible”. If you truly want the gospel, I have to give you scripture. There’s no gospel outside the Bible. Which is why I believe that you just don’t care. Your here to argue. What do you have to live for? It must be depressing knowing that this crappy world is all your ever going to have. I love preaching the gospel, because I have a chance to show people that there is everlasting life. What do you get out of converting someone to atheism? The joyous feeling knowing that your not going to be the only one suffering? Come on brother. No wonder your so angry. And yes dude, your a filthy sinner like everybody. And the reason your so angry with God, is because you know for a fact, that your going to be judged, and it pisses you off knowing that, God’s going to tell you that you failed in life! Trust in Jesus! Just get saved! Repent! Its not too late. There’s no winning or proving anything with you. Jesus makes it clear, if someone won’t hear your words, when you leave, just shake off the dust of your feet. That means move on, and go talk to someone who will be willing to hear. Peace brother!
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Matthew 10:14 (KJV)
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalm 37:20 (KJV)
Btw david. Of course the bible would talk about people like me, the MEN that wrote the bible were like me. They just needed some kind of wool to pull over the general publics eyes to fool them or strongarm them into submission. And they were also smart enough to know there would be people out there like them and like myself that would realize that the bible is utter nonsense and would begin to question such magic. Basic stuff in the bible should tell you its nonsense. I.e. where did jesus find people with names like peter, james, john or matthew? in the middle east? Ha ha ha!
Hi Atheist,
In the 1st century AD, the area that is now Israel (formerly known as Judea) was controlled by the Roman Empire, who spoke Greek. And the people who lived in their occupied areas also spoke Greek. So names like Iakobos, Petros and Ioannes were quite common. And in English they are translated as James, Peter and John. This is just basic secular history. For someone who is presenting themselves as a believer in reason, empirical evidence and substantive proof, this was an extremely suspect and erroneous argument to make.
Wow just wow. So its childish anger if an atheist does what christians do normally? And no i didnt spend most of my day copying and pasting “crap” from a website. Atheists have books just like christians… but i guess thats just wrong because im atheist. And im pretty sure we already had the conversation that i came on here to argue when, i guess, asking questions about anothers religion is (as childofra said) bashing it. Another point, i didnt shove anything down your throat. Its was, as i stated “educating”. Again you go and twist what you read into what you want to believe it means. Only because im an atheist. No other reason. Also, i didnt come on here looking for gospel, i dont ever recall asking for that. “Proof” was the word. How come a book written by man and titled “the bible” is all the proof you people need? Thats very odd for someone like me. I would also ‘assume’ that you dont believe in dinosaurs? You possible cant if you believe in the bible. How could they possible exist in the time frame that the bible portrays that is pretty clear, even to an atheist. And since you like metaphors… “argueing with a christian, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good i am at chess, the pigeon just knocks the pieces over, craps on the board and walks around in victory” and wow, i must’ve struck a nerve by these statements. “It must be depressing knowing that this crappy world is all your ever going to have.”And yes dude, your a filthy sinner like everybody.” “And the reason your so angry with God, is because you know for a fact, that your going to be judged, and it pisses you off knowing that, God’s going to tell you that you failed in life!” Then after you typed those words, you then type “Trust in Jesus! Just get saved! Repent! Its not too late.” Im supposed to follow a god that has such a hypocrite following it?
Hey B&E, sorry i just noticed your post from the 16th. Honestly. I cant say that i am sorry for anything that i have said on here, because im not. I dont see how i have said anything wrong. I simply did what you christians do, preach and speak what you believe. But as i and childofra have said. I guess asking one about their religion is considered “bashing” or “mocking”. I have only asked questions and yes i may have come off as “defensive” but, only after i felt that david or collin attacked me. They cane out swinging. Name calling and what not. But thats my view. As i’ve stated, i think most christians, if not all, twist things into what they want to believe it means. And again thats my view. Im sure im not the only one that thinks that, maybe on here but, not out in the world. I wont apologize if you think otherwise or for what i have said. If you ever feel the need to tell me that im not welcome here, then feel free and i will quietly leave. No hard feelings. I believe in no god, there is no proof of any god as of the bible. Now horas, thats a god i could belueve because i see the sun rise everyday but, i dont see any magical aspects of the sun, like that of the god in a bible.
Hi atheist, I said that I would no longer debate you on this matter, and I still won’t. However, I do have to take exception to your statement that I (or Collin either, for that matter) was “calling you names”. I challenge to you to show me one instance where I ever addressed you by any name but your own, self- chosen screen name “atheist” or where I ever treated you with disrespect. And if you are referring to my statement on August 15 in response to your “bad experience” with Christianity when I stated:
“Wow! At least your story does reveal the source of your bitterness.”
I don’t see how that could be construed as “name calling”. I was simply stating my opinion of your emotional state and I still stand by that, considering the generous outpouring of cynicism, venom and vitriol that you so readily dish out to any forum respondent that would dare try to justify a belief in God to you. I think any reasonable person would agree that there is certainly at least some element of “bitterness” in your emotional state once they read even a small sampling of your postings to this forum.
But let’s move on. On August 14, these were your own words in response to an earlier post from me:
“Hahahaha name calling? Now that would be the way of a christian if i did that. Only religious people get that defensive and offended.”
Now, fast forward to August 19, and here is what you said to Collin:
“Then after you typed those words, you then type “Trust in Jesus! Just get saved! Repent! Its not too late.” Im supposed to follow a god that has such a hypocrite following it?”
Looks like YOU are the one whose following “the way of a christian” (your own words) and I would say that it’s pretty obvious that YOU also got substantially “defensive and offended” toward Collin (something that “only religious people” do) – again, your own words.
B&E, there are many mibble-eastern names in the bible that remain the same, so why only translate a few of the desciples names into english? It seems that only the main/important characters in the bible have their names translated. Why is that? Another illogical aspect of the bible. The bible itself tells you that its filled with parables. So is it not possible for the entirety to be a parable? I know your answer will probably be “of course not. It wouldnt make sense for the whole thing to be a parable” and thats most likely because you, as a christian, have the “im christian, im right your wrong lalala” mentality. Christians cant/wont think with an open mind. Why did god create this universe with one master plan in mind? “Thy will be done” so no matter how much begging and praying you do, god will still do what he wants. He knew this day would come, he knew people would still do evil in this life, why create it, only to destroy it and start all over? With or without god, “you will still have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For a good person to do evil things in the name of “good”, now that takes religion.” A “God” is illogical, in every aspect.
The other film is called the remaining
Great. Thanks.
you (and by you I mean everyone ) have inspired me to have utter contempt for everything being discussed here, with your tired, childish, circular logic. “HI, I’m god/jesus, i’m good!! i’m soooo good I created everything perfect, but no, wait… all fall short of the glory of me, so by proxy, they will be beholden to me, thus needing my good, good, holy state of goodliness to show them they are as likened to filthy rags deserving of automatic hell in need of a saviour to merely stand in my prescence, with NO explanation of this intrinsic sin nature to begin with, but never mind…I love you, you are unclean.
love, gawd.
Hi Eddie,
If I give you a painting in mint condition that is valued at one million dollars and you go home and spill black ink and dirt all over it, thus corrupting its once pristine value, who is at fault?
God created humanity without sin. Humanity chose to sin. It is very convenient to remove human volition from the discussion and blame everything on God. God doesn’t make people steal. God does not make people rape others. God does not make people behead innocent people and post the video of their gruesome deed on the internet. People are making these choices all on their own every day. Just as you choose to sin, every day.
If I am wrong, then why don’t you just simply stop sinning? Wouldn’t that be the easiest way to prove that the Bible and thus God, are wrong? Just stop sinning for a week. Can you do it?
Hey, christian? where did evil come from? not, you know, a childish curiosity to question, discover, and such.. but the , oh it’s ALL bad, as in , EVERY INSTINCTUAL inclination as given by god. Not as a relatable behavior between sentient beings allowed to experience anything through trial/error. no, god is so big that we are a offense to some fixed perfection?? and you dare speak of a ‘relationship’ with said entity????? Life is merely Never making a mistake without fearful, weeping , broken, trembling servitude? if you are a ‘borg’ vessel, i will love you, and ONLY if. but…you, know, love…and all. this very well may be the case, but don’t say ‘free’ and ‘unconditional’. It may be the objective truth, but it is Not the correct definition, as nothing is free about it. translation=god created something purposefully broken in order to be beholden to a saviour, thus NEGATING the entire process to begin with, since EVERY autonomous action is akin to disrespect, and a ‘threat’?? to authority. Hey, BAE, I can ‘bible’ thump too, and speak in declarative truths!!! I’ll be the bull and you be the ram, eternally butting metaphoric heads or ever and ever, amen!!!! please, kindly ‘convict’ me with your scripture truths! What horrible, retarded,childish sum of existence this is all the sum of, if proven to be ‘true’. Btw, people don’t come here to victimize, or attack your poor sainted beliefs – christianity and the like are hardly the maryrs you make yourselfs to be. atheists/agnostics/other faiths/ whatnot don’t introduce to STRANGERS and the common community the premise of a ‘loving’ god who has decreed we are born errant and deserving hell, so ANYTHING from that basic initial premise will of course, by comparison be a ‘ mercy’. I’m not atheist, nor any label that I will make convenient to pick apart, nor do I actually discredit you r right to believe what you will. however… this belief has (while helpful to some) inspired undue confusion, depression and even suicide in some trying to live and understand their lives by the best of their ability, and if even one of these lives have been lost to this ‘benevolent’ dictator, then it. is. utter. ouroboros. circular. pap. PRAISE BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. ”Heaven’s to betsy, I’ve invented a praying machine”!!! holy holy holy holy holy!!! self-flagellation commence for ever!!!! ” oh please…please BAE, I triple double dog dare you to fire your ‘ you clearly serve satan’ diatribes at me. Do.bring. it . oneth. VERILY. I . SAYETH. I love how you minstrel show mental midgets claim GOD can be devoid of the general authorship of the propensity for this ‘sin’ nature you so fondly speak of… consideing the oft used ‘ something from nothing’ arguement. we are %100 responsible for what we do to EACH OTHER on a RELATED, DISCERNIBLE observed reality with regareds to cause/effect, tc…. really, I am appealing to children here. You shall be cast into the fire of unbecoming, then re-whittled into something worthwhile after a fashion more pleasing to my cold, divine eye…for I sayeth unto you, surely hath I not found you fulleth of feces and unbefitting of anointing your unwashed members w/my spittle??? verily, I say unto you, even as I type this, I am multiplying myself into infinite multitudes to infect you with a all-consuming and conquering love, that which is brighter than that of a thaousand SUNS.
Rejoice.
For I am coming!!!!!!!!!
HI Eddie,
Thanks for your comments. I want to start off with your last statement:
Do your posts reflect this “all consuming and conquering love”? I am just curious because they seemed to be instead very angry. Why?
As for where sin comes from, it is our nature inherited from our parents. It’s that simple. It would be nice to blame things like male pattern baldness on The Lord, but the fact of the matter is that it is genetic and inherited from one’s father. So it is the same with our sin nature. And to prove its existence, just think for a moment – when you were a toddler and started to speak and communicate, who taught you to lie? Did your parents? Did a mischievous teacher sit you down and say “now I am going to teach you about lying today.”? No. You did it naturally, as all toddlers do. Why? Because it is in our nature.
Your sinful instincts and desire did NOT come from God. We created this problem by our own choice to sin. And it has been passed on through generations. But even then, the blame still falls squarely on you for your own specific sin. An inclination is just that – an idea. No one, not even your sin nature, MAKES you sin. You choose to do it. And this is why there is death, destruction and decay in this world. Because humanity has willingly sinned and rebelled against God.
And God is indeed going to judge us. Scripture is clear: “It is appointed unto men ONCE to die, but after this the judgment.” (Hebrews 9:7). And that is what this current hostile discussion you are commenting on is about. Because of our sinful nature, we are hostile to the idea of a Holy and Just God judging us one day. It’s that simple. We know we are guilty. Our own conscience condemns us. But the notion that we will be judged is horrifying and offensive. I should know, because I once felt the exact same way. I was once warring with God in my mind. But it takes a willingness to know and understand God and for God’s Word to then take hold in your heart, to believe.
You think Christianity is about living a certain way – it’s not. Christianity is about FAITH. Period. It is about recognizing the clear truth – that we are all sinners by choice who have yoked ourselves to Satan and are destined for Hell. And there is NOTHING we can do to save ourselves. Christianity is the only religion in the world that gives this message. I asked Atheist if he had committed sins before (since he was being extremely judgmental of the sins of others) and he, in quite frank and honest fashion, admitted that he had committed many sins. But in the very next sentence he said “but I am right with it…”, absolving himself! He has declared his own sins are okay – putting himself in the role of God. See how that works? Even when we admit to being sinners, we have to figure out a way to make it not seem so bad.
This is the message of Christianity. This is why Jesus Christ came to Earth. Not so we can show God by our behavior how “good” we are. So that we, as a drowning, helpless people, can grab the one hand that can safely bring us out of certain doom.
These are the words of The Lord Jesus Christ. Consider what is being said – is His assessment of humanity wrong? Do we love light and openly confessing our thousands of evil thoughts, words and deeds? Or do we instead love darkness, where our sins can be concealed and we can pretend that we are “alright” from a moral standpoint?
My goal and the goal of this ministry is simple – to share God’s Word so people, like you, Atheist and anyone else who comes here can know that God loves you and proved His love by sending His Son to die and take your punishment. And that for all your sins, even your words in this forum, you can be forgiven. Freely. It’s just a matter of recognizing what we all know to be true.
“Whosoever shall call upon the name of The Lord shall be saved..” – Romans 10:13.
https://beginningandend.com/how-to-get-to-heaven/
So if my mother was a hoe or cracker head or stripper , does her sins fall to me? I mean we as mankind are punished because adamd and eve ate a fruit. So am I to be punished cause my mother was a hoe or my father was a criminal or rapist.
Hi ChildofRa,
You said:
No, not at all. What I am saying is that the natural inclination to sin comes from your parents. Just as many other genetic traits do. What you do with your inclinations is up to you. You choose to sin. No one, not Satan, not your parents, forces you to sin. You are not punished because of Adam and Eve. You are punished because of your own willing, voluntary sins. I hope that clarifies my statement.
Hoooooot damn, son of sam, here I am! Feel it again, you crispy-fried christian heathens!!! Sojourner truth is doing a jig as your ape-scrathin fevvveeeaahhaaa, scratchin muthatruckas are in holy uproar of my attack of many bared wasp tail upon thee yet again. Have I made my point yet?? We are all a dream of ourselves, endlessly, pointlessly splitting ourselves in two, ad infinim (much like the atom, ha!) for what??? And shall I too not have my fun?? NAY!!! (I say) – indeed, I shall.
P.S.
I’m under your bed.
A man can no more diminish God’s glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, ‘darkness’ on the walls of his cell.
C. S. Lewis
HAHAHAHAHAHA wow. Were you high when you wrote those comics? And i dont mean any disrespect by that question. Very creative. You must be an author.
“A christian telling a atheist, they are going to hell is like, a child telling an adult, santa isnt bringing them any presents for christmas”
thanks, Atheist. Glad you enjoyed said rantings. I too, enjoy what you offer here. Keep it up – some folks are simply too serious. Cheers!
The particle was originally named the goddamn particle for beeing hard to detect. A newspaper editor didn´t liked that and censored the name to god particle. Nothing holy implied here.
Science tries to explain things by observation and investigation. The universe is governed by rules and many of them are yet to be discovered.
Sin is a concept invented by Man. Laws were invented by Man to maintain order.
If there is a God, science will eventually find it.
The Bible is outdated, Those religious people, instead of praying to God, should start doing something useful: learn maths and physics and help us (the scientific ones) to find that God or to discard the belief of his existance. Just praying based in an old book? that’s stupid.
according to the holy Bible if you reject Gods son Jesus Christ you will die in your sin and will spend for ever in the burning lake of fire
if you reject Gods way of salvation you will spend evermore in torment wailing and gnashing of teeth in regret
I warn you according to the holy Bible reject Jesus Christ and Gods wrath awaits you for ever as you have not been forgiven your sins
trust in Jesus Christ now and repent of your sins and do not delay and you will become a child of God a new creation forgiven of your sins with your destination being heaven
I am a devout Christian, but this so called ‘debate’ has get me thinking… I don’t understand why God would allow evil to exist in this world.
Jimbo. The Bible teaches the salvation of all. There is a purpose to evil. It would never have entered our universe without God’s intention. You can learn much from this website http://www.concordant.org/ I pray God will grant you grace to be able to understand. The best book written on the problem of evil, is by A.E. Knoch http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/TheProblemOfEvil/index.html
God Bless
terry
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You have no heart for a suffering animal? How would you like it if an alien told you you had no soul
The spoken,written language is what we have that the animals do not. They are self aware and make decisions too. The smaller simpler animals less so. Insects seem to run straight off the program of their DNA.
There is a short 2 part booklet entitled ‘The Principle of Astrogeometry’ published on Amazon Kindle books. This simply written booklet explains the way The Lord God has designed and created His Universe, and the booklet shows how the ‘elusive’ Hubble Constant can be calculated to its exact value by very simple geometry, as a direct mathematical proof. The big bang theory is totally misleading and incorrect, and even the Astronomer Royal himself in the UK (who is an atheist) is totally unable to disprove the ‘alternative’ message contained in ‘The Principle of Astrogeometry’ booklet, and choses to completely ignore it (ostrich style) hoping it will go away! Blessings, David.
Before anyone attacks The Holy Bible, The Lord Jesus AND God Himself as they too freely do, without realising they will be facing The Lord for that Sin on their own Judgement Day!! PLEASE thoroughly read and sincerely try to picture The Lord’s Universe, as described in ‘The Principle of Astrogeometry’ published on Amazon Kindle Books under that title. If you have a little understanding of Einstein’s Relativity, that will be very helpful in creating in your mind the ‘picture’ of The Lord’s Universe, as described in the little Astrogeometry booklet. Blessings, David.
I challenge ALL atheists to attempt to scientifically disprove ‘The Principle of Astrogeometry’ as published on Amazon Kindle Books. None of you will EVER succeed, as your miserable attempts have also failed to disprove The Lord’s Word (Holy Bible). When you realise Astrogeometry is true (because you cannot scientifically disprove it), the only alternative is to REPENT and believe the truth of The Lord, and His Word, Blessings, David.
Hubble’s Constant or ‘rate’ is 70.98047 kilometres per sec per meg parsec PRECISELY. This can be directly calculated from a simple equation in ‘The Principle of Astrogeometry on Amazon Kindle Books. All you need to input into that Hubble ‘fixing’ equation is the numerical value of Pi, and the speed of light (C) from Maxwell’s equations. Astrogeometry proves there is a Devine maths framework that controls all things. Jesus ‘stretches out the skies’ at the Hubble rate of 70.98047. That’s how Lord Jesus ‘regulates’ the universe. A later, yet to be published ‘generic ratio’ equation, ‘fixes’ the precise Crucifixion Year as 3784 from Creation. From that, the age of the earth is a little less than 6000 years. We are approximately one half way through The Second Covenant period, which ends in about 5000 years from now (Daniel Ch.1 “Time, Times and a Half). David