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Is The Antichrist Revealed Before The Rapture?

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Man of sin Son of perdition Revealed | 2 Thessalonians 2

“And then shall that Wicked be revealed..” – 2 Thessalonians 2:8.

— Is The Man of Sin Revealed Before or After The Rapture? A Study of 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 —

2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 has been a major source of debate, question and confusion when it comes to discussion of the Rapture of the church and its timing. Many pastors, writers and Bible students cite this chapter as proof that the Rapture must occur after the Antichrist has been revealed, based on verse 3 of the chapter. But is this the case? This article will show a very simple interpretation of this much-debated verse and correct a common mistake in its interpretation that will show that in line with the timing outlined in the Beginning and End Rapture series, the Rapture of the Church indeed takes places before the Antichrist emerges on the global scene.
The Passage

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? – 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5.

The verses in bold are where the Apostle Paul gives two clear “prophetic signposts”: the apostasy or falling away of many people in the church from the Christian faith and the revealing of “the man of sin”, a title for the Antichrist, the Satanically-empowered False Messiah who rule the world in the final years before the Second Coming of Christ. The questions and debates arise over, what event comes after these 2 signs? What is Paul talking about? Is he saying that the Rapture will not happen until the falling away and the revealing of the Antichrist? Will the church be here to see the Antichrist in power before being Raptured? Or is there another meaning altogether? Let’s examine the Scriptures in detail.

 

The Context Of 2 Thessalonians

When is the Antichrist revealed? | Timing of the Rapture

It is critical to understand the context of 2 Thessalonians 2.

It is always important to understand the context of a Biblical passage that one is interpreting. In the first letter written to the Church of Thessalonica, the Apostle Paul wrote a great deal about the end times. He explained the process of the Rapture, the end times gathering of the church, both dead and alive to meet The Lord Jesus Christ in the clouds and be taken into Heaven before the judgments of the end times:

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” – 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18.

He also discussed the Day of The Lord, the end times pouring out of God’s wrath on the unbelieving world.

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. – 1 Thessalonians 5:1-6.

The Day of The Lord is a series of judgments detailed in the chapters of the Book of Revelation’s seven trumpets and seven vials (for a more detailed discussion of the Day of The Lord, please see Part 1 of the Rapture series here). This period is also known Biblically as the Great Tribulation. In 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5, Paul assures the church that unlike the unbelieving world, they will not be surprised or overtaken by the Day of The Lord. He closes this passage writing:

“God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.” – 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11.

The “wrath” referred to in verse 9 is not just a reference to the wrath in the lake of fire. It is an assurance that Christians will not experience the wrath of God during the Day of The Lord, but will escape through Jesus Christ via the Rapture, which Paul had just described in the prior chapter. So Chapters 4 and 5 flow perfectly together: there will be a gathering of all believers, supernaturally, to meet Jesus in the air and be taken to Heaven as described in Chapter 4. Following this, there will be the Day of The Lord, where the unbelieving world will be shocked, overtaken and punished in God’s wrath (described in Chapter 5). But this is not something believers need to worry about, because they are not appointed to wrath. This is why Paul tells the church to “comfort” one another with this information as they share it. It was good news! And it is still good news for Christians today.

False Information Invades The Church

By the time 2 Thessalonians was written, false information had entered this church. Whether it was by an incorrect interpretation or prophecy, or by a false letter written by an imposter in Paul’s name, something had shaken the faith of this church in their belief about the end times. They were under the impression that due to the persecution they were suffering, that they were experiencing the end time wrath of God during the Great Tribulation at that time. Paul uses the book of 2 Thessalonians to reassure them that was not the case. It is very important to understand this background when reading chapter 2. With this understanding we can examine the verses in question.

Dividing The Scriptures

2 Thessalonians 2 | Study and Commentary on the rapture Day of christ and the Day of The Lord.

The Book of 2 Thessalonians gives 2 important signs of the last days.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.

This verse describes two distinct events: the Second Coming of Christ to Earth (“the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”) which occurs in Revelation 19 and the Rapture (“our gathering together unto him”), which occurs at the 6th Seal in Revelation 6. The description of the two events is consistent with the dual nature of “Christ’s Coming” as described in prophetic Scripture. He comes in the clouds at the Rapture to receive His Bride, the Church and return to Heaven. And He returns on a white horse with His Holy Angels and all His saints for the battle of Armageddon at His Second Coming. This is dual nature is supported by various Scriptures:

Two different world conditions (Matthew 24:37-42, Matthew 24:21).

Two different approaches of Christ to the Earth ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Revelation 19:11, 14-15, 21).

Two different scenarios regarding the predictability of Christ’s return (Matthew 24:36, Daniel 12:11).

Two very different descriptions of his return (Revelation 16:15, Matthew 24-26-27).

(B&E: The careful Bible student is strongly encouraged to check those passages and see the confirmation of the author’s point for themselves).

The Day of Christ

When is the Man of sin revealed? | 2 Thesssalonians 2

It takes careful Bible study to make sure we do not skip over any key phrases in Scripture.

Continuing in the passage we get to the critical verses for understanding the timing of the revealing of the “man of sin”, or the Antichrist:

That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; –2 Thessalonians 2:2-3.

Verse 2 is where much of the confusion arises. Many articles and commentaries skip over the phrase “the day of Christ is at hand” and jump to the two signs given in verse 3 (the falling away in the church and the revealing of the Antichrist). However, this phrase cannot be overlooked. When Paul is giving the signs in verse 3 he is mentioning them with respect to the “day of Christ.” The “day of Christ” is a term for the Second Coming of Christ to Earth as described in Revelation 19. Even in the first chapter of 2 Thessalonians Paul described the Second Coming as “that day”:

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. – 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

Jesus returns to take vengeance on the Antichrist and the unbelieving world at Armageddon. This passage is clearly referencing the Second Coming. We also see the specific term “Day of Christ” used by the Apostle Paul in several other instances:

“And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.” – Philippians 1:9-11.

Paul’s exhortation in this passage is that the Christians in this church remain in Christ until the Second Coming, which is the end of this world (as the Kingdom of Christ will then begin). So from the context the phrase “the day of Christ” is referring to the Second Coming.

Some have argued that the Day of Christ and the Day of The Lord are the same event. However, Paul dispels that notion in the following verse:

Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. – Philippians 2:16.

When interpreting the Bible, God instructs us that Scripture defines Scripture. Clearly Paul would not be rejoicing in the midst of the devastating end times judgments poured out during The Day of The Lord. Instead he is writing that he will rejoice at the Second Coming knowing that this moment, when Christ returns to Earth to establish His Kingdom, will make all of Paul’s work and labor in spreading the Gospel not be in vain. The Second Coming is the full glorification of Jesus Christ and His Church on Earth for all to see. Thus it will be a time of great rejoicing.
By the context of the passage and other Scripture confirmations, the Day of Christ refers to the Second Coming. So when Paul is addressing the Thessalonians he is telling them not to be shaken or scared to think the Second Coming was “at hand” and thus they missed the Rapture and were in the middle of experiencing the Great Tribulation.
For some reason, many have interpreted “that day” in verse 3 to mean the Rapture and wrongly teach: “So what Paul is saying is that the Rapture will not happen until the apostasy and the Antichrist is revealed.” But we can know from basic Scriptural interpretation and looking at the context of the verses that Paul is clearly talking about the “day of Christ”, just described in the prior verse.

 

Remembering the context of this book (the Thessalonian church based on false information thought they were experiencing the Great Tribulation and thus missed the Rapture) we can see that Paul’s correction makes sense. In short he is telling them that the Second Coming of Christ will not take place until there is the falling away in the church and the Antichrist is revealed. These 2 major signs were proof to the Thessalonians that they were NOT experiencing the Great Tribulation. This is the correction to their belief that Paul is trying to drive home.
In giving the context of this passage, Bible commentator Jonathan Gill wrote:

“In this chapter the apostle guards against a notion, as if the second coming of Christ was at hand; declares that, previous to it, there must be a great apostasy, and a revelation of antichrist; comforts the saints against fears of being included in this defection; exhorts them to stand fast in the faith, and closes this chapter with petitions for them.” (source).

The Christian Perspective
If the Rapture was supposed to take place after the Great Tribulation, why would the Thessalonians be troubled or shaken? Wouldn’t they have been excited and thrilled to know that they were just years away from being raptured, the Second Coming and the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ? Christians, especially in the first century, were eagerly awaiting the Second Coming and the Kingdom of Christ on Earth. If it were just years away there would be no concern or fear on their parts. But since they wrongly believed they had missed the Rapture of all believers and were experiencing the wrath of God on Earth with unbelievers, Paul assured them with two clear prophetic “sign posts” that would mark the time of Day of The Lord: the falling away of the church from Biblical Christianity and the revealing of the Antichrist.

There is an escape from the massive persecution and judgments of the end times: the Rapture. And this is why Paul “comforts” the Thessalonians by informing them that they had not missed the Rapture because it had not occurred yet. If they were destined to experience the entire end times, Paul would have stated so plainly and encouraged them to “get ready” for it. Instead he wrote to correct their misunderstanding and comfort them from their fears.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work. – 2 Thessalonians 2:15-17.

Conclusion – The Rapture Precedes The Revealing of The Antichrist

Lord willing this article provides some clarification on a verse that has been widely misinterpreted in much of prophetic research today. When understood in context, 2 Thessalonians 2 confirms that the Rapture of the church will indeed take place before the revealing of the Antichrist. And when Paul speaks of “that day” he is referring to the Second Coming of Christ and not the Rapture.

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Reader Interactions

Comments

  1. I just recently discovered some of my favorite websites, Hagman and Hagman, Rick Wiles, and Steve Quayle don’t believe in a pre-trib rapture. One in particular tried to convince me of their way of thinking. With all the things going on today, I must admit, I’ve given their viewpoint a fleeting thought. But,I still believe in pre-trib.

    • Hey Sparrow,

      The post-trib model is becoming very “in” lately and a recent film put out has given it even more momentum. But it is incredibly flawed. In fact, any rapture model that says the seal, trumpets and vials are all the same is very, very incorrect. This can be proven easily through the plain reading of Scripture.

      I also notice there is a “bravado” with much of the post-tribulation model, as if they are really ready to endure the wrath of God. Scripture says “who is able to stand?” but they say “we’re ready, bring it!” Just something I find interesting. lol.

      The goal of this site is not really to support a particular model, but instead to just be Biblical. We have to be able to interpret Scripture in its proper context and make our conclusions from that. And that was part of the reason for this article. Rather than using Scripture to support our pre-conceived notion of how the end times play out, we should let the Scriptures inform us of God’s plans and timing of the end times. God bless!

        • It would not let me comment on the above comment, so I comment here. You did a very good job in the first two Nephalim articles in using scripture to back up your teaching. Here, however, to make the scripture say what it does not say you naturally leave out scripture reference since there are none that state the rapture occurs before the tribulation. How blind we become to our Sacred Cow doctrines!

          • Falling away: Early English Bible versions translated ἀποστασία as “departure” or “departing” e.g., Wycliffe (1384), Tyndale (1526), Coverdale (1535), Cranmer (1539), Breeches (1576), Beza (1583), Geneva (1608). Jerome’s Latin Vulgate (circa 400 A.D.) also translated ἀποστασία with “discessio,” “departure.” While interesting, how strong a case can be made from these translations is questionable since no evidence exists about the translators understanding of “the departure.” What we can state is that they were good translators. Key to good interpretation is how Paul used the word with respect to the grammar and the context.

      • I am new to this site so I have lots of research to do here still. I will do that, but in the meantime I would like to contribute on this subject. I do not believe in pre-trib. My answer to “Who is able to stand?” would be God’s elect. Has anyone ever looked up the word “rapture”? It’s meaning is bliss, exhilaration, extreme joy….at the return of Jesus. He is not carrying anyone away. The Bible is also clear that He comes here…Heaven is where he is. If anything, the “rapture”, thought of as a “taking away” would infer that the anti-christ will be the one taking souls away…due to there false idea of the “good” rapture happening first. Check your own reference above 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3! Clearly Paul states that the falling away and the revealing of the anti will happen first. Please understand the rapture that you are speaking of does indeed happen at the Second Coming. Or…it would be called the “Third Coming”. God’s elect will stand before the anti to testify as witnesses of God. Please check Mark 13:9-13. This passage is post anti revealing himself but pre-return of Jesus, and this is happening during the “tribulation” of the anti-christ proclaiming himself as Jesus. God has stated touch not mine elect. You bet we will all be here until the Second Coming. cf Rev 9:4-6. Confirmed here is also the fact that the second half of the “tribulation” will be reduced to 5 months or no man would survive. Biblical references to “months” always refer to the time of “Satan”. Conclusively, I believe that those who are waiting for Jesus to rapture them away are the ones who will be confused when the anti comes first, as he will, and will wrongly follow him. I am not saying believe me, but study the Bible in it’s simplicity and come to your own conclusion. Please.

        • Hello David Paul,

          Wow! You make some very valid points to possibly consider. Like: Be aware of the anti-christ and don’t wrongly follow him. What I can tell you is that I genuinely heard GODS voice 4 years ago. I had a vision of the Iraq War before it occurred and I had a dream of an atomic bomb the size of a space shuttle exploding, I died and rose upward with no pain because I have strong faith.

          Keep on praying, communicate with GOD, do not judge anyone, understand your fellow human, we all sin, ask for forgiveness each day, live by the 10 commandments as much as you can, praise and worship GOD joyfully, accept JESUS as your SAVIOR and spread the word of GOD wherever you may go.

          Have a super day

          Deborah

          • Hi do you say the 10 commandments? Yes and the 4rth is the Saturday sabbath not Sunday. If you agree then we’re on the same page. Heb 8:10. .

            • “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” Colossians 2:16-17

            • this is for Deborah Correia
              You say Like: Be aware of the anti-christ and don’t wrongly follow him.”
              Unfortunately We the church will be taken in the rapture before the son of perdition is revealed – 2 thess 2 .. there is no reason for the church to see the antichrist , its for israel not gentiles. .. so if you see the AC ,youve clearly been left behind . After the rapture is will be The worst times on earth. Remember the parable of the 10 virgins 5 had oil the other 5 did NOT–Matthew 25:1-13 . So Prepare NOW before its too late! We are so close ! also this below is interesting as the rebuilding of the third temple can be before or after the rapture and this time breakdown shows it should be started rebuilt by 2022 or year

              Looking at the 1000 year reign of the Messiah and comparing it to the 7 days of creation, means that 6000 years must precede it. Those started at creation. The first 2000 years were accomplished and the Father Abraham and the Jewish Peoples. The Next 2000 years and then the Messiah. The Crucifixion or “Cutting off of the Messiah” in 29 A.D.( if 30-31 ad add 1-3 years to totals to compensate as many are not exactly sure– me neither ) marked the end of the second 2000 years and beginning of the last 2000 years prior to the 1000 year reign. The 6,000 years of man ends in 2029 BC(+/1-3years). Subtract 7 years for the period known in the end times as the tribulation [this is not the wrath of God, that is later as part of the tribulation during the trumpet and bowl judgments when His wrath is poured out]. So 2029 minus 7 years brings us to 2022 give or take part of a year. At this point the world powers will allow the Jews to build the Temple on the Temple Mount and will have worked out some agreement with the Muslims. Then the temple will be built and the sacrifices will be resumed and they will continue for 3 1/2 years until the world leader (The antichrist) break his promise and sets himself up as god in the temple. It is the beginning of the year 2019 so you have 2019, 2020, 2021, and then sometime in 2022(+ 1-3 years ) or there about the temple will be built or started and the 7 years of tribulation will begin. Go do a study of Daniel and the dates until the cutting off of the Messiah 7 weeks (of years), and then 62 weeks (of years) for a total of 69 weeks (of years) with the final week (The 7 year tribulation) and it will all come to pass. You look for the pattern in God’s Creation and you will see what is to come. It will not be a random date. In the Hebrew Year of 30 on the day of atonement Yom Kippur in the Talmud it states that the Gates of the temple would not stay closed, the red cord on the scape goat would not turn from red to white, The Menorah on the left side of the temple would not stay lit and the stones taken from the high priests garments to designate which goat ca,e up continually with the same stone for the next 40 years until the temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. and the odds of all four of those things happening every year for 40 years is over eight trillion to one. This is a confirmation the the Crucifixion/resurrection happened in the spring of 29 AD. and showed that the sacrifice of 30 AD by the Jews was no longer accepted. (see the Talmud, both versions). Therefore 2000 years from the cutting off of the Messiah must be 2029(+ 1-3 years if 29ad or 30-31 ad ) and the temple must be rebuilt in the seven years prior to this date, or maybe a bit before so the sacrifices can be resumed around this date. Trump is not the Antichrist, his helping to establish Jerusalem as the Capitol is only preparatory. The Antichrist will come from the one world government as its leader and the object of worship of the one world religion that will persecute Orthodox Jews and Bible believing Christians. Yes we are close to the time to build the temple and no one can stop its coming, nor delay it. MC

              • Donald trump is the antichrist. Absolutely NOBODY is going to be “left behind”!

          • I too have heard the voice of the Lord. On a beach. It came from around, within, outside, inside and was clear as glass. He said, “Love Him as also I have loved you”. I dream alot ,ever since I was a young toddler and I remember them all ; all 54 years of them. two years ago I was running up a steep hill and there were solders wearing green, black and white with red. Their flag had the same colors. My group climbed into a long dumpster to hide but were all shot inside the dumpster. I could feel the bullets entering my body and making me jerk with each hit. We are close brethren. We can feel the tenseness of the earth and the excitement of going home.

          • Aren’t you so special. So you have some new revelation directly from God? I call b.s. on you and your evil intentions.

          • He did! I guess I missed it because it makes very little sense to me to think the rapture occurs at the second coming. Did you read this article? I thought he addressed that issue quite clearly as to why a post trib rapture is not biblical. Oh well….nothing wrong with you believing what you want to believe.

        • I agree with you 100%. I have done my own research. My biggest concerns is Churches are now pushing to have Revelation removed from the bible. The other is the false teaching around Matthew 24. People are being lead to believe why worry, why watch events in the Middle East? They are being told we are out of here by then. I’m sorry but it’s happening now the event described in Matthew 24. I would rather error on not believing in the pre tribulation rapture and be prepared and have knowledge of what is going to take place, rather that be one who does not know theory and falls victim to the AntiChrist. We are given to many things to look for, why would Christ give them to us if we are out of here. The Church body is divided on this. People need to study Gods word and let the word speak to you. No one will stand in your place during Judgement. Jesus work out your own salvation with trembling. Never listen to man. We live in a day where the Church is being invaded by wolves in sheep clothing. Better error on the safe side. Persecution is coming and what makes the people of today in America think their above it. Are we saying we are better than Christ, Paul or Peter. No no no, wake up.

          • Hello Jim,

            The removal of REVELATIONS from the HOLY BIBLE will never happen or so GOD help them. The day of the LORD is approaching sooner than any one of us human beings realize and beware the wrath of our LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.

            To the faithful ones that he loves, there is so much joy and love waiting for eternity. GOD has worked miracles in my life and many others. I truly heard HIS (a mans voice) just over 4 years ago and with that said I am telling you and everyone that GOD our creator is very very real. Every Knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess before our LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. I have prayed from the bottom of my heart and soul for GOD to come and end the suffering in the world and take the ones home that love HIM and then to my amazement REVELATIONS starting unfolding super quickly and I thanked GOD for answering my prayers. With that said tough times lie ahead for believers and never ever discriminate other religions or denominations. Do not have negative discussions or blaspheme other denominations but only learn and teach of your beliefs for hard times lie ahead for the believers.

            Love to all and REPENT constantly for we are all sinners.

            Deborah
            x

            • Deborah,
              Please tell us what you consider to be a ‘negative discussion’….would that include not believing as you do? I can’t imagine how you got negativity from these posts unless that is the case.

              It matters not when we go (pre,mid, or post), we do indeed have Jesus Christ to look forward to for eternity. In the meantime, Our final months would be better spent telling unbelievers about the awesome love of Jesus Christ, than castigating your brothers and sisters in Christ for not believing as you do.

              No one here has blasphemed (which you don’t do to things, institutions or people…only the Holy Spirit–blasphemed is a ‘God’ word) anyone, but there is obviously a confusion in interpretation. Since you can’t ‘drill’ into others your belief, how about standing outside yourself and see it from–whom you consider–the opposition’s side. If the Antichrist does show up and everyone’s still here, what will you do? How will you deal with that situation? Will you switch gears and instead of thinking about yourself and how you don’t want to go through mental or maybe physical pain, will you embrace the fact God thought you worthy to help the lost see Him in You through devastating times? Or maybe you don’t have to worry because the earth changes will kill you first and you won’t physically be around during the GT.

              What about the multitude that is saved during the Great Tribulation (Rev.7:9-14). Someone must bring them to Christ (some would have never really gotten the gospel in a form they paid attention to previously). In Joel 2:28-29, we read how God uses the Holy Spirit in the last days. If we are not to be here in some of the bad times, why would we need a ‘pouring out of the Spirit,’ more than we already received when we accepted Christ Jesus? If you truly had the Faith needed to truly Walk in the Spirit in these last days, the last thing you would be concerned about is ‘when’ you go home. But our lesson on Joseph tells us to be ready for whatever God has planned; for our plans are not His plans, although we sometimes wish they were :).

              Have a blessed day.

          • I couldn’t agree with you more, Jim! I, too believe in post tribulation rapture, though I thought that article was very well done. In the end, believe, be born again, witness concerning the gospel of our Lord, Jesus Christ, tell people HE IS COMING SOON! In the meantime, prepare for the tribulation or ANYTHING coming to a city near you… God bless everyone!

            • when two witnesses die and rise 3 1/2 days later to be seen by the world, (they have 24 hour video installed at the wall now) there’s your rapture perhaps. also take in mind if the time had not been shortened none would survive. separate beginning of tribulation and start of great tribulation. 3 1/2 years of 2/3 of a lot of things which I believe holy spirit is gone for the anti Christ to rule. my thinking true believers will follow after those martyr. (perhaps) evil can not harm those protected by holy spirit. that just a passing thought. grace, father,son and holy spirit. creator, word and the path. I use a check list from bible scripture, I have greece prime minister prince of wales as my top two candidates then third out of the rome,Russian accord. shalom.

              • You know, that the antichrist is Satan masquerading as Christ Jesus to deceive by deception the people of the earth into believing that he is God.

                You know also that Christ Jesus has shorten the tribulation to five months, according to Revelation 9:5,10.

                Antichrist stands to mean, one who stands in the place of another, you see Satan wants to be God, Thereby making Satan the antichrist.

                There are those that think that Christ Jesus is coming at or during the 6th seal, but however Satan comes at the 6th seal and the 6th trumpet, Christ Jesus comes at the 7th seal and the 7th trumpet.

                For the number of Satan is = 666
                You see the 6th seal, 6th trumpet, 6th vial,
                Is of Satan = 666

                The 7th seal, 7th trumpet, 7th vial,
                Is of Christ Jesus = 777

                You see the number 7 is God perfect number of completeness and perfection.

                As God created things in 7days God created it in completeness and perfection.

                • Dean,
                  The Bible tells us the number of 666 is the number of a man. Lucifer himself cannot be in this world, he can only copy himself, thus his essence mind and spirit go into a Man and this man does Satan’s will in the end times. Thank goodness for number 7! 🙂
                  Shalom

                • But the bible states that the Antichrist is indeed a man, Daniel 7; 25
                  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

            • When the Antichrist is revealed, he causes all to receive his mark. So, then if all believers refuse the mark of the beast, they will be beheaded. So then here comes the question, who will then be left to be caught up with the Lord If all believers are dead? I believe the rapture will occur before the Antichrist forces his mark, or is revealed.

        • Hello John Paul,

          Busy at work so just a quick response. I read carefully what you said and it makes a lot of sense truly. If I were to meet JESUS CHRIST I would know immediately if it were HIM as there is a sadness in HIS eyes that always remains form the brutality of the way he was crucified so that we may have SALVATION.

          We need to take heed to any warnings of deception that another human being can give one another to ensure that none of the elect deviate the wrong way and get mislead.

          Have a super day …..

          Deborah

          xx

          • Tell me Deborah;How do you know that there is a sadness in Christ eyes? Where did you read this in the bible? I have never read anything about the eyes of Christ being sad! When apostle John had a vision of Jesus, on Patmos Island, His eyes were as flames of fire. (Revelation 1, verse 14) They were not sad.

            Are you sure you are in the truth?

        • Rapture comes from the Latin word rapio which comes from the Greek word Harazo which all mean to “be caught up”. So your modern version in our dict. is irrelevant.

          It means to be aught up.

          • That is right,God’s elect shall be the ones that will be able to stand, this is because God’s elect will have the seal of God in their foreheads.

            • When the Antichrist is revealed, he causes all to receive his mark. So, then if all believers refuse the mark of the beast, they will be beheaded. So then here comes the question, who will then be left to be caught up with the Lord If all believers are dead? I believe the rapture will occur before the Antichrist forces his mark, or is revealed.

          • Don, I do not believe in the pre trib either,

            In speaking about God’s elect, during the tribulation, when God’s elect are delivered up to the antichrist they will be the only ones, that can commit the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

            Notice in the book of Mark 13:11-“But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what you shall speak, neither do you premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak you, for it is not you that speak, but the Holy Ghost ”

            Thereby for God’s elect to speak before the Holy Ghost can speak through them, this will be blashpeme against the Holy Ghost.

            For Christ Jesus fortold His Elect not to speak, but to speak that which is given them by the Holy Ghost.

        • To get a better look into rapture the Hebrew word is actually kidnapping is Two Witnesses, you also need to go back into the prophets and see the day of the Lord. Keep faith all my brothers and sisters. The most important common warning I hear is that if you DONT BELIEVE pre Trib, YahShua will leave you behind for doubting.

        • I’ve never heard of that interpretation of the snatching away, or rapture as some say and I would question the source. What matters though is the clear difference between us meeting the Lord in the air and the second coming of Jesus on the ground at the Mount of Olives. The last trump, when believers and those that sleep (died) in Christ, meet the Lord in the air, is clearly different than the wrath and tribulation which we are told we are NOT appointed to. We are told to comfort each other with this promise and if we are going to go through the trib, what point would this make? People confuse the 7 trumpets with the last trump of God. Please see more… http://doctrine.org/the-rapture/

      • Hi B&E, this is a very important discussion because it’s very important that we get the timing of the rapture correct, just as Satan will counterfeit the return of Christ, there will also be a counterfeit rapture, or how else could he pull this off? In one of your response to a comment you referred to the ten thousand of the Lord’s saints who will return with Him to at the Day of the Lord. In that you seem to be using this verse of scripture to prove that these are the raptured saints who were taken before the Great Tribulation. My problem with your interpretation of this verse is that it doesn’t prove your point, but disproves it.

        What you seem to be saying is that all the children of God who ever lived from the time of Noah to the return of Christ, even those who are raptured [pre-tribulation] only come to ten thousand. This is unscriptural, scripture says that the number of saved is so great that no man can number. These ten thousand are the army of spirit beings and their general Michael who always fight the cause of the Lord. So if the number of saved at this point only comes to ten thousand, where will the multitudes that no man can number come from? According to scripture Christ will returns a small virgin church compared to the number people living at that time, I think it says at least one third of mankind will be wiped out at the beginning of this Great War. So where does this great multitude come from?

        The multitude of the saved have not even been resurrected yet, the scripture the pre-tribulations twist says one group of saved will not proceed the other, all will be resurrected at the same time when the graves opens up and all meet the Lord at the same time. The resurrection of the dead and the rapture is one event. The souls of the dead in Christ is under the altar in heaven, with no resurrection body yet, the body and spirit must be united for the spirits under altar to be resurrected, which must happen to all at the same time. One group will not precede the other, these bodies that walk out of the graves must be united to the souls under the altar in heaven for there to be a resurrection of the dead. The dead bodies are here on earth and the soul are in heaven, they must be brought together for the being to be physically resurrected as their Lord was, both soul and body. The resurrection is of the physical body since the soul is alive in heaven with the Lord, all walk out the grave and reunited with their souls at the same time after the last trumpet call when all the dead in Christ shall rise!!!

        • Hello Roy,

          Each and every Human Being that accepts Jesus as his SAVIOR and is good not evil will be SAVED. Our Dear LORD wants to take home as many of HIS JESUS as he can – You are correct in saying that the number is infinite and earthly humans cannot understand that number.

          AMEN

      • Read the scripture and pay attention to timing. Nobody is “raptured” until “the dead in Christ rise first”. This happens in the final hour of the seventh day. The “Rapture” follows and then the books are opened.

      • Admittedly, I need to re-read this article to better understand what it is saying. However, I’ve always believed the rapture would be before the wrath of God is poured out but everything prior thereto, the Church will have to pray to endure.

      • As usual, another great article. You have given me a few things to ponder and research.
        1. The Day of Christ- I admit, Wasn’t sure if that meant the Rapture or the Day of the Lord. I may have to rethink that.

        2. The “falling away”- I was thinking that may have meant the rapture, and not the apostasy of the church.

        I feel pretty secure in this knowledge- the rapture is NOT post great tribulation. That seems to fly in the face of 1 these 5 and Rev 3 promise to Philadelphia.

        Anyhow, I need to re-read some things here and process it all a wee bit more. Thanks again.
        TM

        • Great conversation. I have to say, I think Roy said it correctly. The saints are waiting for their resurrected bodies, both the dead and the living which will take place at the last day (also known as the day of the Lord). Jesus taught his disciples this very thing; resurrection at the last day St. John 6:39,40,44,54. I also attach a youtube link that will bring good clarity to this subject.

          Marc

      • Mr Beginning and Ending

        Yes we can’t deal with bravado, but needed to correct a misunderstanding you stated. Post Tribs such as myself don’t believe that we will endure God’s Wrath, that’s erroneous and not consistent with the Bible.

        The bible does say that some will be beheaded (different than the beheading of that time), and imprisoned, but then that God/Yeshua intervenes because things will have gotten so dire that unless He did, no flesh would survive. There are two wraths presenting. First that of flesh hateful of those who maintain the Word of God which all but stamp us out and then the Wrath of God which is in answer and obliterates those who persecute us.

        This is proven in that the bible also says “”Immediately after the distress of those days (the Tribulation) “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.” Matt 24:29-30

        And yes Bro Ryan Waldrop IS correct. There was never a Pre, Post, Intra Rapture as there was only one preached, that that we now call “Post Tribulation”. Oh that Jesus doesn’t want us to become “Offended”. Hahaha, we even quoted the exact same scripture! Glory be unto God!!!

        Apostle Kevin McLemore ThD

      • YOUR MIXING UP TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS, THE TRIBULATION (PERSECUTION AND TROUBLES) AND THE DAY OF THE LORDS WRATH ON THE WICKED WORLD ARE VERY DIFFERENT. LIKE IT SAYS IN SCRIPTURE IN THE LAST DAYS(TRIBULATION) IT WILL BE LIKE THE DAY OF NOAH… IN OTHER WORDS EVERYTHING HAPPENING WILL BE NORMAL ACTIVITIES ETC. UNTIL…… THE FLOOD CAME (GODS WRATH

        • Tribulation comes before the gathering/taken/redemption and many other OT Words.

          The Coming of the Son of Man
          Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

          WHERE is the word BEFORE in VERSE 24:29 and why is 24:15 of the Antichrist standing in the Temple Fortreess near PASSOVER before the Gathering? Order and sequence is important. If Armageddon is War and 1260 days is mid way then should not Matthew 24:15 be after the gathering

          Matthew 24:31 rapture is AFTER the Seals found in Matt 24:3-14, and AFTER verse 24:15 Antichrist in Israel scene (March 20-23rd, 2013; Psalm 113) and after the Tribulation Psalms 107/108 to Psalms 117 (Rapture/5777/2017 Nisan 1 ,2017 to Nisan 1, 2018) and Psalms 118 (Rapture (118:5) and Second Coming (Psalms 118:10-13, 15) and Psalms 118 Millennium with Psalms 119 Law in the millennium (Psalms 118:15 and for the next 1000 years)..Psams is 19 books and Genesis and 47 books from Revelation (HINT:1947 CE–Proclamation of Israel +70 years = 2017 (Psalms 117/5777).
          1947 (Psalms 47)+62 Pentecosts = 2009 (Psalms 109–THE ANtichrist) + 1260 days = Psalms 113) + 1290 Days = Psalms 116) + 45 days= Psalms 116 till Nisan 1, 2017.

          1948+62 Pentecosts = 2010 Sign in Heaven (Psalms 110) +1260 days = 2014 Sign in Heaven (Psalms 114) +1290 days + Sign in Heaven (Psalm 117) = Rapture in 5777/5778 bebre Nisan 1, 2018 but after 2017 Rev 12:1 sign = Rapture on March 1 or March 17, 2018.

    • Tribulation does not mean wrath , the pre tribulation rapture doctrine is a lie from Scofield in the last 1800s
      “Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.” Matthew 13:21

      wrath comes after Jesus comes back AFTER the tribulation , “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”Matthew 24:29

      the word tribulation in greek,
      2347. thlipsis ►
      Strong’s Concordance
      thlipsis: tribulation
      Original Word: θλῖψις, εως, ἡ
      Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
      Transliteration: thlipsis
      Phonetic Spelling: (thlip’-sis)
      Short Definition: persecution, affliction, distress
      Definition: persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation.

      • Ironic that you espouse the very same belief (with a complete lack of proof yet again, as is often seen by those pushing the argument about Scofield) as has already been mentioned and refuted.

        To state that the belief of a pre-tribulation (or pre-wrath, which is what this writer is stating) is the result of one man in the 1800’s is to seriously neglect one’s Christian history. Some of the earliest Christian leaders (aka Church Fathers, as they are sometimes known) believed this so strongly that they wrote about it a great deal.

        Some scholarship would be refreshing when it comes to this debate, specifically on the side of the Scofield-is-evil camp.

        • all those christians dying over seas egypt and the middle what makes you think Jesus is coming back just for you? LEVIATHAN. the Pretribulation rapture is NOT scriptural, just like the Lines of Seth doctrine is NOT scriptural, the lines of Seth doctrine was started by augustine who was a former gnostic and he was catholic, on top of that another guy that started that lie was an author of the zohar, connected to the kaballah a book of Jewish black magick, to hell with the church of BAAL i’l stick to reading the bible and trusting in the Holyspirit to lead me to understanding of scriptures, many so called christians today worship Satan and Call him Jesus, they actually think that Christmas is a Christian holiday, when infact it is 4000 years old for the worship of Sol Invictus.

          • I used to think too that it wasn’t fair to be raptured before the tribulation while others have died in suffering. One day God turned a light on and showed me by somebody else in a different context that Christians are more persecuted theses days than ever before. Hard to believe but the population is greater and the finding the Christians is much easier.

            Anyway, my point is that while many Christians in the past alone have died in pain and under torture like almost all the apostles (assuming John didn’t), many other Christians have lived a peaceful life and died of old age. If the Rapture is not fair then it’s not fair that they lived peacefully and died of old age.

            It’s also not fair for the crippled, handicapped and sick people. We live under Satan’s dominion and live will never be fair until we die in Christ suffering or not. You know, the people who lived longer may have suffered more than the younger one beheaded. I would rather be in heaven with God than here with more and more people hating us for our belief in GOD and Jesus Christ.

            Things to consider. Just don’t hate Christian that believe in the pre-tribulation rapture.

            Pre-trib Christians: Please don’t stop caring for your loved ones and working to provide for them because your expecting the rapture at any moment. That’s not the example that Paul has given us, as any other apostle for that manner.

            God Bless you

          • Another quick thought: You know that the people that died younger in pain, sick or not, they have a major advantage from God’s point of view: they have sinned less. they have offended God a whole lot less than me. I would rather not have offended God at all but you might get the point. From a human point of view, when we get to heaven, they would have a better place as much as all the ones who have suffered in Christ.

            Another way of seeing it: If i get raptured, it will be my honor to pickup the garbage from ( serve) those who have died in pain and suffering from persecution or sickness.
            I just don’t know if God will allow us to know that information so that nobody glorify themselves of what they have done.

          • You know, dying beheaded by the antichrist army is much better than then enduring what the e.g. catholic church (catholics: don’t take this as a personal attack, just read history and the catholic faith along with the Bible and you’ll see) have made christian heretic endure. All that incredible torture,whoa just sick to think about it. Being killed by a lion while people celebrate instead of trying to help me. Wow beheading becomes almost inviting…. for Christ on top of that =? added reward. No more sinning I’ll take that!

            Well, I won’t move my family there and if i was there, I would try to get out, if God would allow it by giving the authorization and/or providing the means.

            But like Paul, one day everything seems fine then the next day, soldiers show up to your door and that’s it. God has allowed it but God shouldn’t saved his Church because it’s not fair?….

            Doesn’t work that way

          • Appreciate that, Truthy. I’ll watch/read these a little later this evening and get back to you on them shortly thereafter.

            I can certainly appreciate the admonition of “let no man deceive you,” but at this point I find that those advocating anything but a pre-wrath rapture to be on the wrong end of that admonition. Perhaps your links will convince me otherwise.

            Thanks again!

            • Hello RETS,

              I trust that you all had a wonderful and yummy festive season. Please can you let me know how I can display my photograph in the block supplied so that we all know who we are talking to.

              Here is my view on the end of time as follows:-

              Lots of weather change. The weather man will keep on saying this is the strongest blah di blah ever to occur so far on earth. Addictions will increase and man will turn to easy fixes instead of prayer. HIV/AIDS will continue to poison mans blood (mans ability to exterminate itself) and nuclear warfare will become a norm to just wipe out whomever whenever like humans are nothing of importance. Oh! Lets keep them quiet , all of them and wipe the whole lot out with gas – No prob, problem solved ever so quick and lets blame each other without the very harsh consequences of our Father GOD who oh yes is omniscient, omnipotent and omni-knwowing and who will consider this totally wicked act of power on judgement day as a very serious turn against his law (Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder) and we can only imagine the consequences of that. Is it all worthed or is it better to rather just obey the 10 commandments with all our might (it is on 10 simple guidelines)???? A Jewish homeland has to be reestablished. The North and the South will be at war – can anyone elaborate on who is the North and who is the South in modern terms. The moon and the sun will turn dark with no energy (gas) and therefore the stars will fall to the ground as the have no energy to keep them there. The strong and mighty angels play an integral part in sounding the trumpets and the seals have to be opened. Then there is the BIG BOOK with names. We are all equal children of GOD but the question I have is this one: Will the Christians that sinned more be judged harsher than the more obedient ones??? Just a question.

              Thank you and GOD bless

              Deborah Correia
              Cape Town – South Africa)

              • Hi Deborah, Revelation 16:8 also mentions that the fourth angel of the bowl judgements pours out his bowl on the sun so that the sun had power to “scorch men with great heat”. As for the sun going dark, the moon turning to blood, the stars falling to the ground and a huge earthquake that flattens mountains and causes islands to “disappear”, these effects sounds eriely familiar to what the modern scientific community tells us that the perceived effects of a possible large meteor or asteroid impact with the earth could be. Not sure who “the south” could be, perhaps Ethiopia or some other north African nation, but I feel “the north” may refer to what is now Russia and maybe some of the former Soviet states.

                • Thank you David,

                  I am so glad that I found a site whereby I can learn more about my Creator and our Father GOD. I truly heard his voice 4 years ago and he told me to convey that we all have another chance to accept JESUS as our SAVIOR. I truly heard that he will make HIS presence soon. Really, I am serious. I think the earth is beautiful. The rivers, valleys, mountains, trees, farms, sky, animals, fruits, plants and more. The human race upsets me so much and that is why I believe that our Father GOD will appear soon as we cannot go on with the terrible malice anymore. It would be lovely to meet all the apostles, strong angels, Moses, Noah and more.

                  I would still like to enjoy Earth lots more before the end. It is beautiful sans the evil Humans. There are also lots of good Humans too – Plenty.

                  Super day to you and I will read Rev 16:8.

                  Thank you

                • Mark 14 vs 32-33
                  “However no one ,not even the Angels in Heaven, nor I Myself, knows the day or the hour when these things happen, only the Father knows. And since you don’t know when this will happens ,stay alert .Be on the watch (for my Return)” God and the Lord Jesus Christ bless us all !!

              • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                Hi Deborah
                One has to remember that the so-call Rapture, Last judgement, End of days, Apocalypse or what ever names are attached, End of Time and so forth, have been predicted centuries before the coming of Christianity. The Roman predicted the Rome would be destroyed in 634 BCE, and again in 389 BCE, but Rome still stood. 70 CE, saw the first Jewish prediction, with the Essene Jewish sect seeing the End of Time, with the destruction of Temple Jerusalem, by the Romans in 70 CE. From the middle of the 4th century, the Christians started to announce the End of the World and so forth, and over the centuries many Christian celebrities predicted the destruction of man and the world. With popes (Sylvester II, Innocent III) and Reformist (Martin Luther, John Wesley), even Christopher Columbus predicted the World would End in 1656. The Catholic Apostolic Church predicted the End as coming in 1901 (see below). The list is long, but worth a read!
                [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events ]
                I am not talking about one or two prediction, there have been hundreds, and they are still being made, with prediction going into the future as far as the year 22,000,000. However, not to worry there is 21,997,986 years to go before that prediction can be tested!
                On the subject of the Catholic Apostolic Church, they got their prediction wrong, it was the end of their church, and not the World, as of 1901, the church’s membership dropped and it went declined.

                Cofion (Regards)
                Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                • I find it interesting that you opted to reply to one of the posters here who has been asking questions which could suggest a weakness of faith. I do not believe she is weak, but from an outside perspective, one might come to that conclusion.

                  Therefore, I must ask what your intent here is. You are obviously not interested in building up her beliefs, or you would not have provided information that is worthless, yet certain to cause doubt. You are obviously not interested in a debate of ideas, or you would have chosen to respond to someone else with equally passionate and formed beliefs.

                  Thus, my only conclusion at this point is that you are desiring nothing more than to discredit that which you do not believe. Shame on you for attempting to do so at such an obvious point!

                  Mr. Jones, while it is true that there have been apocalyptic predictions for many years, it is also true that such predictions pale in light of the the profundity of Biblical prophecy. While some of these prophecies use archaic imagery, it is vital to note that the events of such prophecies are in fact coming true.

                  An example of this, for instance, is the prophecy of a sovereign Israeli state. At the time it was made, there was no such thing, and even under the Romans, the Jews existed as a protectorate under a Roman governor. Not until the 1940s was there even a possibility of such an event taking place, and it was not until 1948 that it actually took place- This was predicted, down to the events surrounding their current existence, nearly 3,000 years ago.

                  You may throw rocks all you wish, sir, but I for one challenge you to back up your assertions- Such as the Catholic Church’s membership declining. As of the most recent polls and studies, the Catholic Church has seen a sharp increase in not only conversions, but attendance and membership. Another example of your lack of scholarship on this subject is your referring to Wikipedia without so much as an apology!

                  You reference the year 22,000,000- Yet there is no one who has ever suggested that the world would end at that point. Some scientists claim that the universe as we know it will come to an end in the year 22,000,000,000 as a result of black energy constantly ripping at the fabric of time/space. However, even this is now in contradiction with more recent discoveries about the universe, including one of the first glimpses of an expanding section of the galaxy.

                  The Bible itself, however, has yet to be proven wrong, no matter how hard people such as yourself attempt it. Evolution? Theory alone, and while microevolution certainly exists and is actually spoken of in the Word of God, macroevolution has yet to have even the smallest shred of evidence in support of it- While the Biblical account of creation maintains the lion’s share.
                  How about challenging the existence of Christ? Only the most foolish of detractors even make the attempt! Even Christopher Hitchens declared that while he certainly didn’t believe that Jesus Christ was God, or at least any more a god than the next man, anyone who declared Him to be a figment of imagination were themselves figments of imagination.

                  Multiple challenges have been put to the Bible, and all but the most foolish and inconsequential have been answered with resounding authority, so I put to you this final question, Mr. Jones: What evidence, what will, what human power do you propose to possess that would cause you to be more successful than the hundreds of thousands- Nay, the millions- Before you?

                  I’ll wait for your reply.

                  • Bore Da/Good morning and Hi
                    Hi Rets
                    I think you miss read my comments to Deborah – in no way do I think that see was weak or strong in her faith, in fact I would of said she was strong. However, I was merely commenting that there were other version of the End of Days, Apocalypse, etc., which are far older than the biblical myths, with predictions still raging to day. And, I was not trying to dissuade her from her faith, that is for her own consciences to decide, as I said before, there are always two or more sides to any version of a story. I am merely agreeing or arguing a point—as this site is a debate for one to comment of views and topics on Christianity! You certainly don’t know me or have read all my comment on this site, or you would not of made that comment, I was a practising Christian long before (I assume) you were born, it is only the knowledge I gained in the 1950’s that has changed my views on religion. I have been married for 50 years, and not once in that time have I tried to persuade my wife to change her view on her beliefs, or my children, they make their own choice.
                    Sorry, I digressed. On predictions, Jules Verne’s stories have come true, as well as many other fictional stories, and I am well aware of the story of Israel, or my own nation 2,000 year old prophecy, which came true in 1485. Do I believe all these prophecies were an act of God, hell no! What goes around, come around, knowledge is the greatest gift humanity through evolution has ever had.
                    As I said you did not read my comment properly, I did not mention the Catholic Church’s membership declining, what I said was that the Catholic Apostolic Church aka Irvingism, a different sect to catholicism, which began in the 1831, it was led by 12 apostles, and there prediction was that the world would end when the last apostle died!
                    The majority of Christians still do not believe in Darwinism or evolution, if they do it is a modern turn-around, as I read an article about a month ago, on the Young Earth movement, who believe in an earth that is only 6,000 years old, etc. About 10 miles from my home there is a cromlech, a megalithic tomb, which is older than the bible story. Science has proved that Homo Erectus lived 1.8 million years ago, and yet certain Christians are blinded, and take no heed of history or science.
                    To understand today’s Christian Bible, you have to be diverse in history, the oldest extant Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, the Torah, and many more to see that the modern Bible is five times removed from translation than the oldest gospels, and that the scriptures are the work of scribes (mortal men, not god), who through the centuries added more and more interpolations, which the Hebrew and Greek text did not have, we know most of these as the Apocrypha! The earlies extant bibles did not have the Resurrection, the Cross of Crucifixion, and more than 14,000 other anomalies.
                    I hope this is enough information on my part.
                    Cael diwrnod da (have a good day)

                    Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                    • Hello Mr Jones,

                      I read all forms of comments and replies that I receive so that I may learn and grow in my understanding of the BIBLE. Alas, I will never ever turn away from the LORD as he performed a miracle in my life 4 years just after I heard his voice. I have gone from strength to strength and he has anchored me deeply so that I will not sway.

                      I am 100% and absolutely certain that their is a GOD (that created us) and that HE sent HIS only begotten SON to die for our SALVATION so that we may not perish but have ETERNAL LIFE – of that I need no clarification as I have never been more certain of anything in my life.

                      I love you, all GODS children and GOD loves us so much.

                      Thank you for sharing

                      Deborah

                    • Mr Jones to understand the Christian Bible you actually have to be a “Born Again Christian” as a self acclaimed Humanist as you stated you do not have that privilege yet.

                      It’s not just a story book you can learn the facts as you see them.

                      “Let them alone: they are blind guides. And if the blind guide the blind, both shall fall into a pit. Matthew 15:14”

                      As a humanist that has spent 30 years studying the Bible on has to wonder you motives here? Why put so much time into something you don’t believe as fact unless to sown discord maybe. The last days there are upon us.

                      Shalom

                    • Sure the world is in the last days.

                      According to what God has given in the book of Revelation,the world is in the last days.

                      Now the question is, as to what God has given in the book of Revelation, just how close is the world, to Christ Jesus second coming?

                    • Noswaith da/Good evening and Hi
                      Hi Dan Carlisle
                      With the utmost respect you say you have to be a “born again Christian”! I have never heard such tripe, sorry it was the nice word I could find. You must have read my comment wrong I am not a self acclaimed Humanist. I am a Humanist, I belong to society of professional people, I have a card, and a number, etc., and we are also a charity, with all the status that goes with it.
                      Dan, my eye are not that good these days, with diabetes and old age, but I am sure from what I can deduce from the very small picture (that is if it is of you) that I am older, by quite a bit, I left college in the mid 1950’s after reading the bible back to front and front to back. I am not sure where you get the information from that I have studied the bible for 30 years, which is probably slightly less than 50% of what I make it. I can assure you I do not have a motive, unless you call telling the truth is a motive, then I am guilty. I am an aged researcher in Christianity and Cymro, as well as being a polemicist with a Christian wife of 50 years +.
                      My belief is in history and knowledge, I believe that there was a Jewish man named Yeshua of the Jewish tradition. To find out more on him you will have to read all the Hebrew scriptures, such as the Shabbat folios of the Talmud.
                      Before you enquire, no I am not a Jew, I don’t have family who are Jews, my linage, and I kid you not –goes from the “House of Tewdwr (English: Tudor)” back to Beli Mawr (Beli the Great) 100 BCE.
                      In response to Matthew 15:14:
                      “There’s none so blind as those who will not listen.”
                      ― Neil Gaiman, American Gods
                      Cofion (regards) a nos da (and good night)
                      Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                    • Hello Mr Jones,

                      No disrespect sir meant to you as a person, to catch up from earlier when I said you would make the Islamic folks and the progressive replacement theologians happy with your understanding as Apostle Paul being “simon magus & the false prophet” was meant to open your eyes to the fact you were siding with demonic forces that are contrary the the word of God.

                      So with that said you now understand I don’t see you here to enlighten anyone but to cause confusion that’s fine, we know who the author of confusion is correct?

                      Now to your credentials, your age, time spent studying and all the degrees in the world make little difference when looking for the deep things of the Bible. No man’s wisdom can fathom divine things on there own intellect. Yes its kind of like saying you can save yourself isn’t it?

                      Even if you are on par with the great rabbis unless Holy Spirit guides you you shall be found wanting when it comes to understanding the essence and depth of scripture. Your wife no matter what her elevation, training or degree in life understands more about the bible truth than you sir. This is not my belief it’s just a fact like it or not.

                      Your debate as tripe (your word works for me too) as it may be is with scripture given through the Holy Spirit.

                      But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Corinthians 2:14

                      As far as being Jewish I am not only grafted into Israel but also proudly share in a small portion of the blood line. Shalom

                    • If I may ask, as to where do you get, that for a person to understand the Christian bible, they haved to be a born again Christian?

                      So where in the bible is that written at?

                      My other question is, as to what do you mean by born again?

                      I know what man’s teachings are.

                      But what does Christ Jesus teach?

                    • Anyone studying outside the leading of the Holy Spirit is on their own.

                      “But whenever The Spirit of The Truth comes, he will lead you into the whole truth, for he will not speak of his own will, but he shall speak whatever he shall hear and he shall reveal the future to you.” John 16:13

                      Isaiah 11:2
                      The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him– the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD–

                      John 14:17
                      the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

                      1 Timothy 4:1
                      The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

                      So it’s the blind leading the blind if the leadered is not filled with the spirit or lead by the spirit. You can play with semantics all you want why would anyone follow the teaching of an unbeliever?

                      Shalom

                    • My question is what is your definition of born again to be?

                      As to how do you come by the term born again Christian?

                      I have found nothing in the bible saying anything about being a born again Christian.

                      So where do you get this at?

                    • OK this answers Mr Jones & Dean

                      1st we have a ruler of the utmost credentials in biblical teaching yet he does not understand a basic tenant of the teaching of Yeshua. The man knows the law but he does not know the spirit of the law.

                      We see that unless the spirit guides you, you are blind to the spirit of the truth that the scriptures are created to give His creation to make them change into the likeness of our savior Yahshua.

                      John 3:1-21 American Standard Version (ASV)

                      3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

                      2 the same came unto him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that thou doest, except God be with him.

                      3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

                      4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

                      5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

                      6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

                      7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.

                      8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

                      9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

                      10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?

                      11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

                      12 If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things?

                      13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

                      14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;

                      15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.

                      16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

                      17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.

                      18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

                      19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.

                      20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved.

                      21 But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

                      Shalom

                • Hello Mr Jones,

                  I am confused, concerned and dismayed by all the predictions. What I do know is that we all WILL die, be judged and then meet our creator. In order to see HEAVEN I MUST obey the 10 commandments as best I can and be obedient. As for the end of times well we will all just have to be GOOD and wait and see.

                  I go by the BIBLE because really it is the BASIC INSTRUCTIONS for us BEFORE LEAVING EARTH.

                  Have a great day

                  Deborah

                  • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                    Hi Deborah
                    Thank you for your reply, I have no problems with anyone faith or beliefs, and I believe that its is only ourselves that can decide this fact. Like myself, I found my belief through education and several decades of research into various fields of history, were I gaining a thirst for truth through knowledge.
                    On the subject of your concerns about predictions, I would not worry about them, man has been prediction event from time immemorial, and we all interpret them differently.
                    I wish you the very Best.

                    Cofion (Regards)
                    Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                  • Hello Deborah . Don’t be dismayed and confused . People make salvation seem so difficult and complicated , but it isn’t . Never mind what others have told you my dear friend and pay no mind to mans predictions . As for only going to Heaven if you obey the Ten Commandments , no man has ever done so since our Lord and Savior Jesus was on earth in mortal form . All men have sinned and come short of the glory of God . The teachings of Jesus tell us that the Word of God was , is and will be forever . That not one word shall ever be removed . However , since no man can obey the ” Old Law ” ( the Ten Commandments ) , that he has given us new commandments and these being to love the Lord our God with all that we are and the second being like the first , to love others as he has loved us . Now if you think about those new commandments Deborah they are all we need ! Because if everyone on earth would only obey those two commandments , than all others would be fulfilled effortlessly . The law is not the way to Heaven my friend because no amount of works you can do on earth can replace faith . Simply knowing who Jesus is , also is not enough because lets face it , Satin and all of his demons know more about God’s Word and Jesus than we do . You must know him personally . Believe that he is the Son of God and that he did die on that cross for our sins ( because we couldn’t follow the Commandments ) and that he arose on that third day . This is why new Christians who ask Jesus to become their Savior and dwell within them forever get baptized . When we are baptized we are symbolizing the death of our old life and when we arise from the water we are symbolizing our rebirth into the salvation of Christ Jesus . As for the rest ? Read for yourself and God will help you understand . The internet is a wonderful and useful tool to quickly find scriptures because you can type in your topic and get page after page of information . But if you want some helpful advice my Dear , pay more attention to bible verses given than the individual interpretations of them . Look up those verses for yourself and I think you’ll be amazed at how much comfort you’ll find there . The end days will come soon enough but are certainly nothing to be feared for those of us who will be joining our Savior in the Heavens . Will we see any of the trials before we’re called up ? I believe we will from my studies , but not to much of it . I don’t fear any of it at all because I know what comes next . I’ve read the book and God wins ! <3 All my love and prayers to you my friend .

                    • Good morning Karen,

                      Thank you for inspiring me with the 10 Commandments and reminding me that FAITH in JESUS as our SAVIOR will be the first steps in being welcomed in to MIGHTY KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

                      If I can share with you that I truly heard GODS voice 4 years ago and that he has given me visions of the IRAQ war, atomic bomb exploding (huge atomic bomb), I saw JESUS on the cross and recently extremists killing people and there was immense fear in my dream.

                      I am also not scared to die as I have faith in fact I must share with you that I recently died in my vision and I rose up to the HEAVENS with no pain, that was after an atomic bomb exploded and killed me.

                      GOD bless us all and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

                      Deborah
                      xx

                    • Good morning Karen,

                      Thank you for inspiring me with the 10 Commandments and reminding me that FAITH in JESUS as our SAVIOR will be the first steps in being welcomed in to MIGHTY KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

                      If I can share with you that I truly heard GODS voice 4 years ago and that he has given me visions of the IRAQ war, atomic bomb exploding (huge atomic bomb), I saw JESUS on the cross and recently extremists killing people and there was immense fear in my dream.

                      I am also not scared to die as I have faith in fact I must share with you that I recently died in my vision and I rose up to the HEAVENS with no pain, that was after an atomic bomb exploded and killed me.

                      GOD bless us all and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

                      Deborah
                      xx

                    • Hello again Deborah . How lovely to be speaking with you again . When God is trying to pull us to the fold we often can have some pretty frightening dreams . These dreams however are not intended to frighten us but rather give us perhaps a small glimpse of things to come . I notice that you said you believe Jesus is one of the steps towards going to heaven ? Jesus in fact is the only way to get into Heaven my friend . Once saved we will undoubtedly sin , we are still of the flesh after all . But once saved we get a new perspective on life and the more we learn about our savior , the more of those other commandments we tend to keep . In John 14 : 16 , Jesus says ; I am the way , the truth , and the life : no man cometh before the Father , but by me ………………….. <3 Karen

                    • Hello Karen,

                      That is right – JESUS is the only way. Each and every dream that I Have had has come true. In fact the recent one of the atomic nuclear bomb that look like bullets and are combat green are the exact weapons that I saw in my dream that was just very recently captured by Israel that was en-route from Syria to Israel for no good use but to kill.

                      My dreams are of a very real magnitude and I am alive and truly take part in the event before it occurs. It is not a dream but a vision (very different).

                      I have been telling everyone I meet that there is going to be World War III very soon and even though I do not anticipate this gruesome act of power I feel it is near.

                      GOD BLESS

                      Deborah

                      xx

                  • We all know that a great war is coming . It’s inevitable really and both believers and none believers alike know this . The books of Daniel , 2 Thessalonians , Mark , Jeremiah , Ezekiel , Daniel and Revelations , should all be of great interest to you ……………. <3 Karen

                    • Good day Karen,

                      I will read the books that you have recommended to me.

                      Have a super weekend and PRAY for the losses and pain that many are enduring in the world right now.

                      Deborah
                      xx

                  • To be absent for the body is to be present with the Lord.

                    If you are in Jesus you will not be judged you are already saved..This is the testing of your works to find the value of your treasure it seems to me. What have you built up in heaven after you received Yahshua.

                    Christ the Only Foundation
                    …11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

                    12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

                    13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.…

                    The Judgement is for unbelievers. Shalom

                    • You say the judgment is for the Unbelievers.

                      That is not according to scriptures.

                      As it is written, “But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ”

                      “For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God”

                      “So then every one of us shall give account or himself to God” Romans 14:10-12.

                      Therefore as to how do you get the judgment is for the Unbelievers?

                      Therefore the Unbelievers as well as the believers shall stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

                      For every knee shall bow to Christ, this means believers and Unbelievers shall stand before Christ at judgment.

                    • Hi Dean,
                      I was referring to a statement by another about the believer being judged by Yahshua but not believers judging unbelievers but that said read.

                      Revelation 20:11-15
                      “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”.

                      Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!

                      1 Corinthians 6:3

                    • Dan,ok, I didn’t mean to intrude, but if you will notice that in Romans 14:10 that Paul had written that we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

                      Notice that Paul included himself, by saying ( we shall all stand )

                      Notice in Revelation 20:12-15, speaking of the dead, you know these are the spiritual dead.
                      Notice in Verse 13-“And death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them”

                      You really don’t believe the dead that death and hell delivered up are believers?

                      No, they are the Unbelievers.

                      You know death is another name for Satan.

                      If you go to Hebrews 2:14 he that had the power of death is the Devil, Notice that in Revelation 12:9, you find the Devil being Satan, Therefore death is another name for Satan.

                      And those in Rev 20:13 are the spiritual dead that Satan and hell delivered up to be judge at the judgment seat of Christ and they were judge every man according to their works.

                      Dan I really hope this may be of some help.

                      If I may say, I am a believer in God,Christ Jesus our saviour.

                    • We are getting off the subject so this is my last post away form the rapture subject at least here anyway,

                      Not sure why you asked me this? “You really don’t believe the dead that death and hell delivered up are believers?”

                      reply: Sorry I guess i wasn’t clear that unbelievers would be at the white thrown judgment (not just satan)

                      Two different judgment seats

                      1st For believers only (not about salvation about works)
                      2 Corinthians 5:10
                      For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

                      2nd Great White Thrown Judgement Seat
                      Unbelievers

                      Shalom

                    • Dan, the Great White Throne Judgment, are for both believers and the Unbelievers.

                      Notice in Revelation 22:11-12,this being the Great White Throne Judgment.

                      Verse 11-“he that is unjust,let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still, and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still, and he that is Holy, let him be Holy still”

                      Verse 12-“And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be”

                      Notice in Verse 11 he that is unjust, and he which is filthy, these being the spiritual dead, Unbelievers.
                      Notice also here in Verse 11, the righteous, and the Holy, these being the believers.

                      Therefore the believers and Unbelievers are there at the Great White Throne Judgment,God to give every man according as his work shall be.

                    • No I don’t see your scriptures confirming your understanding of the two judgements, I see you are mixing them together for some unknown reason.

                      The body of Christ will be at the great white throne judgement, standing with the Lord across from the unbelievers. The believers seem like court attendees, officials to me.

                      Either way its clearly two separate deals.

                      As far as the judgement seat of Christ NO unbelievers will be attending as the lord judges our works to see if we have any treasure left.

                      Shalom

                  • Deborah Correia, Hi, i read how you saw yourself die from a nuclear bomb, and i am curious to know which state you live in?

                • Jero, once again, you focus on the Catholic Church at the cost of substantive evidence that refutes your points. The Bible itself has numerous end times predictions that have yet to come to pass. But they will. Just as many prophecies have already been fulfilled. Nothing you are writing refutes that.

                  As I told Rosa, you entire attack on Christianity is based on the Roman Catholic Church – an organization that is nominally Christian and is a political organization. The Christian faith is based on the bible.

                  What are your thoughts on Islam? Are they an evil religion as well in your eyes?

                  • Prynhawn da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                    Hi B&E
                    I am not attacking the catholic church, or Christianity, I am merely pointing out historical facts, which are well documented. The period I refer to, the de facto church, was the catholic church, it had annihilated all opposition to maintain its dominance, so there was no opposition only catholicism had the power from 380 to 1521. Check your history! All other religions in that time frame were decimated and denounced as heretical, and the church could call on its allies (Europe’s catholic kingdoms), to rid them of dissenters anywhere in Europe, which they did! History can only blame crimes on Protestantism after 1521 or from the Reformation period, which was also bloody, with heinous crimes being committed on both sides, in the name of their God!

                    Cofion (Regards)

                    Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                    • Jero – I have said on many occasions that I have no affiliation with the Catholic church. It is a political institution that is not representative of Biblical Christianity. That being said, what is your religion? As I asked Rosa- share with us what you believe to be the right faith. You have praised the ancient Sumerior mystery religions, Egyptian cults and other ancient faiths. Are these what you believe in? Why not share what you feel is the proper faith to believe in?

                    • Bore da/Good Morning and Hi
                      Hi B&E
                      Thanks for your comment, However, I have also said on many occasions that I am not attacking Catholicism or Christianity. Both subjects I have been reading and researching for more than five decades, a subject hanes [history] which has been my passion, which has not dimmed with age.
                      On the subject of my religion, I have also stated previously that my beliefs have grown through knowledge, and it is better said through a quote:
                      “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” Stephen F. Roberts.
                      On the subject of you inquiring if I supported other ancient religions, such as Sumerian, Egyptian, etc. No, I do not, however, I have read and researched such deities in my pursuit of knowledge and academic studies, etc. I found them all very useful in my understanding of the religion of birth, my family, and that of my nation, for the past 2,000 years. My nation were the first people in Europe to be baptised into Christianity, proof of which I cite Gildas Sapiens (the wise) (516-70), a cleric who was born in the same place as I, Dyffryn Clwyd (the valley of the Gate). Who wrote in his work, De Excidio Britanniae (the Ruin of Britain), before the Christianism of the Germanic (English), wrote:
                      Meanwhile these islands, stiff with cold and frost, and in a distant region of the world, remote from the visible sun, received the beams of light, that is, the holy precepts of Christ, the true Sun, showing to the whole world his splendour, not only from the temporal firmament, but from the height of heaven, which surpasses every thing temporal, at the latter part, as we know, of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, by whom his religion was propagated without impediment, and death threatened to those who interfered with Its professors.[http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/gildas-full.asp] As you see from his work, the ancients thought of Jesus as the SUN and not the SON! Could the ancients be thinking of Sol Invictus or Mithras?
                      Tiberius Caesar reigned 14-37 CE.
                      I hope I have given sufficient information to your inquires.
                      NB. Eastern Mediterranean people such as the Phoneticians from Tyre (Lebanon), have been plying their trade between our ancient island homeland of Ynys Prydain (Isle of Britain) since the third millennia BCE, It is these trading people that scholars say bought Christianity to Prydain, at the beginning of the 1st century CE.

                      Cofion (Regards)

                      Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                  • Noswaith Da/Good Evening and Hi
                    Hi B&E Part 2
                    Sorry, I could not finish my comments earlier and had to post my reply before completion, due to medication (diabetes) and a very persistent wife.
                    As I aforesaid, there were no other churches committing these well documented crimes against humanity, at the time in question, the catholic church acknowledges this point on their heinous past. I have also debated the brutal past of Protestantism, on their witch hunts, and their attacks on innocent catholic’s, and catholicism, etc.
                    You ask about my thoughts on Islam, its a subject that is not in the discussion, however, history has shown that Islam was very tolerant of other faiths, including Judaism and Christianity. History has also shown that Christianity was the catalyst in the destruction of tolerance between the faiths, due to Christianity’s belligerence. In addition, scholars state that there is a direct correlation between Christianity’s brutal past against Islam during the crusades, and the problems in the East and West today. Professor Jonathan Phillips (head of history, university London); argues that ‘an idea promoted by Pope Urban II at the end of the 11th century continues to resonate in modern poliltics.'[History Today Volume: 59 Issue: 11 2009, by Prof. Jonathan Phillips] That said, the extreme fundamentalist in Islam are a brutal regime, and have the same religious views and narrow mindedness as other religious fundamentalist fanatics, which including Jewish and Christian, etc., who views are not shared by the majority of the faithful.

                    Cofion a nos da (regards and good night)

                    JeroJones, Mab Cymeru

                  • Your claims about history are simply wrong. The Crusade was created to defends Jerusalem against Islamist after over 3000 christian pilgrim were massacred in Jerusalem.

                    As for the fundamentalist you also got the fact wrong and here’s why.
                    Your definition of fundamentalist seems to be related to extreme violence. While this is true for islam, it doesn’t stand for Christians and here’s why.

                    The most truly christian should be the most peaceful and loving person sharing God’s good news about Jesus and respecting other people’s decision as to believe or not.
                    The most truly muslim should conquer the world by the sword and eradicates christians and jews and impose the sharia law which annihilate individual rights.

                    When those fundamentalist christians of yours (bad apples) commits their crime and die doing it, they commit a sin and offend God and gain hell.

                    When those muslim fundamentalist commits their crime and die doing it they gain personal heaven with 40 virgins and their close family members gain heaven too.

                    Just get your definition and historical facts another look. I think your historical facts have been influenced and/or distorted. Your definition of fundamentalist, in regards to christian, make them not christian by Bible definition. We’re Christian by our faith. If we’re Christian we’ll therefore bear the fruits of the holy spirit. I would come to believe that if a person don’t have the fruit then he must have lost his faith.

                    I have been rewriting this post at least 3 times. Trying to make it nicer and shorter. I hope I got it for the nicer definitely not for the shorter. 😉

                    Have a good day

                    • Bore da/Good Morning and Hi
                      Hi Sebastien
                      Thanks for your comments, however, I have to disagree with your story of the cause of the crusades. This is the view of scholarship on the subject: In 1094 or 1095, Alexios I Komnenos, the Byzantine emperor, sent to the pope, Urban II, and asked for aid from the west against the Seljuq Turks, who taken nearly all of Asia Minor from him. At the council of Clermont Urban addressed a great crowd and urged all to go to the aid of the Greeks and to recover Palestine from the rule of the Muslims. The acts of the council have not been preserved, but we have five accounts of the speech of Urban which were written by men who were present and heard him.
                      [http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/urban2-5vers.html] (Fordham university, is a catholic (Jesuit) university in New York, and is a leading place of learning.)
                      As I said the consensors amongst scholars, is that the blaim is on Pope Urban II, as he directed the crusader to go to Jerusalem via Anatolia, the Byzantine emperor did not mention the Holy Lands, he percifically wanted his lands back, and his borders saved. Additionally, you could also find pope Urpan II’s speach at the same above link.
                      Your source for the massacre of the 3,000 pilgrims, is incorrect, it is a sourse from Christian apologetics, and is not academically sponcered, and the correct view of the massacre you mentioned is:
                      In 1070–71, the Turkic emir Asiz ibn Uvaq al-Khwarizmi besieged and captured the city, placing it under the nominal control of the ‘Abbasid caliphate. In 1077, on his return from a disastrous attempt to capture Cairo, the capital of the Fatimid caliphate, he found that in his absence the inhabitants of Jerusalem had rebelled and forced his garrison to shelter in the citadel. He therefore besieged the city again, and on recapturing it, slaughtered an estimated 3,000 of the rebel inhabitants, including those who had taken shelter in the Al-Aqua mosque.[‘The Annals of the Saljuq Turks,’ trans. D. S. Richards, Routlleege (2002) ISBN 0-7007-1575-2]
                      On your Christian bias on the fundamentalism issue, it does not do you justice, if your read your history on Christianity (I mean proper academia sponsored history), you will find barbarity on a scale that caused the human family such devastation, done in the name of the Christian God or Gods!

                      Cofion (regards)

                      Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                    • I think you just proved my point and also gave me additional knowledge that proves it even better and for that I must thank you.

                      Now your atheist/christianity debate have been going on for ages and cannot, until Jesus return, be settle intellectually or proven beyond doubts because it will always be a matter of faith. Not understanding this also proves your bias or your accusation of my bias.

                      You can study the history as much as you want, you will never get to understand it fully without understanding what Christianity is all about. If you learn about Christianity you will be able to better identify what acts or words truly really are Christians or just hiding behind its label. That’s not bias, that’s honest study. Do the same with Islam you’ll learn that they’re allowed to cheat, lie, kill and more to achieve their goal as long as it serves Islam… yes seriously! That’s not bias it’s honest study and the difference is evident and shocking. Do the same with atheism that reject Christian morality or Nations that have rejected Christian morality.

                      Now, back to the crusaders. Their desire to free Jerusalem even though that was not what they were ask for, and so on, was barely based on human good intentions. Lets assume that because I think it was something else (power control politics – the catholic modus operandi – might not find that in the Jesuit books). What is the fact about the result of their actions… Atrocities barbary rapes and more… Did they win that war?. I don’t think so and would believe that you agree with me on that. Therefore, it was not from God, not blessed by Jesus and definitely not guided by the Holy Spirit. The only way to make this Christian is If you bias your judgement and look only at their label and ignore what Christianity is all about. Christians know that God’s plan was to spread the Jewish nation over the earth for their rejection of their Messiah and that He would bring them back when the time comes. Therefore they were never going to win even if they claim all they want that they were doing this in the name of God. Human do not decide God’s plan.

                      By the way, there is no earthly church kingdom to be build by man ever therefore definitely not before Jesus second coming at the end of the tribulation period. The only thing built is the Jewish temple. So what’s the Catholic Church doing again?? Your not biased mentioning your Jesuit studies? But we are mentioning our Bible studies right?

                      Just look who contributed to fulfill the prophecy about the return of the Jews to their homeland. Yes the British and Americans signed-off the paper but the trigger was the worst dictator our recent history has known. He used the devil’s work in is favor. It wasn’t Christians going on a holy war. It was a war about freedom vs dictatorship and world dominance and politics and whatnot, but never about a holy Christian war. It did served God’s purpose thought. There’s a lot more more on this subject and various connected topics that we shouldn’t go down that road.

                      — Jesus said that he will establish is Kingdom on earth when he comes back. So what are the Catholics doing trying to build His kingdom using the same, hmm won’t go there, human strategies.
                      — God said that He would bring back the Jews in their country. So what happened? the Devil unintentionally help and honest citizen did.

                      Now if you honestly want to learn about history of the first century at least do it from an unbiased location as opposed to a Jesuit school, That is definitely not helping your unbiased credentials IMHO. Citing them in a Christian environment doesn’t make you justice at all. The secret organization of the Catholic Church… I don’t want to offend any Catholics, my wife is and so her family, Catholic Latinos, can’t be more Catholic than that :-). But they love God and there’s no other spanish church around.

                      To further discuss this topics please post a link to a different blog since this blog is about the Rapture and people that want to discuss Pre-mid-post tribulation rapture. Here we all know that God exist and respect your choice, whatever it is, on that belief. We also believe in is love and forgiveness and cannot associate with the atrocities you are mentioning and accusing us of. That’s old school atheism and has been well discussed and debated in the past.

                      Keep up your studies and may the Holy Spirit guide you in your studies and ultimately bring you to Him.

                      You might also refer to the Old Testament stories has Christians, which is false but closely related. A lot of atheist and even Obama (fact) mocked the Old Testament only demonstrating biased and a complete misunderstanding on their part. But hey, we’re biased because we know more about and studied the Bible. Go figure.

                      B&E : This is my last post on this topic. Sorry for hijacking your blog on the rapture.

                      Have a nice day Jero

                    • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                      Hi Sebastien
                      Sorry for the delay in responding to your comments, I have been unwell for the last few days, due to diabetes and other related illness, and an old Christian wife the anathematize me every time my hand touches the keyboard of my computer.
                      Again I am being lambasted by commentators on B&E as a god forsaken heathen, out to destroy Christianity with my so-called Antichrist rhetoric and atheistic tendencies to convert Christians to moral ways of atheism. Nothing could be further from the true! I subscribe to B&E to join the debates and comment when I fell necessity calls, I do not make up my replies and always cite my case from academic sources. As I have afore said, I have been researching history since the mid 1950’s, starting with the past my own nation (Prydeinig (ancient British) 700 BCE – 1485 CE) and Christianity (164 BCE to 1870), however, since my retirement I have included church history 1871-1945. That said, all my research and work is based on academic scholarship, and I cite (credit) everything to give its authenticity. My last comment to you I cited Fordham University… you are correct that it is affiliated to the Jesuits and the catholic church. However, I cited that institution, not for religious purposes, but for ease for the recipient of my commentaries to authenticate, I could of cited lots more from my own Llyfrgell (library) or the online libraries I am affiliated with, but that would not of help you or anyone else to confirm my citation, as finding the information would in most cases be extremely long and tedious. You see I am not bias of religion, I have cited many Christian sources to authenticate, without such information, I would find it very hard and difficult to do my work. I would also say that it is my passion in a historic way, a passion that I also had as child going to Sunday school. However, the passion that you have for your faith, is for your faith ONLY! Religious belief outside your church are seen by you as being anti-god, in other words you do not belief in other religious sects or faiths, and it is you that is the atheist. I do not mean this in a nasty or a derogatory way or to belittle you, I am just pointing out from your comments.
                      I will not say any more of the subject of Pre-Tribulation other than to say I have cited my comment, however, you don’t cite your claim that Darby was not the creator?
                      I am happy you say you have gained knowledge from my comment, but, hope that you use it in an unbiased way. On the subject of knowledge, I hope this last bit of information will help you to further gain knowledge to find what you are looking for in life.
                      Question, which of the three below is TRUE:
                      1. Was Christ crucified on a CROSS, or
                      2. Hung on a TREE, or
                      3. Hung on a STAUROS (stake or up-Pale)

                      All three questions are mentioned in the Bible (well, they are in my Bibles) as the cause of Jesus’ death. However, the citation for the answer is in the oldest known Bibles, which I presume you have not got one handy (I’m not being nasty or rude), however, for ease (you have a computer), and I am sorry to say this easy accessible citation belongs to a religious sect, and I will say sorry for that, as I know you do not like them! But, first one has to remember that the cross was seen by early Christians as Pagan symbol and was not used by the early church. Good grief…I given the plot away, well the answer to the instrument of the death of Jesus, is Number 3, The stauros (Stake). The cross is 6th century adoption of a Pagan symbol by Christianity.
                      The scholars Marucchi, Cabrol, and Thurston, wrote: Although in the fifth century the cross began to appear on public monuments, it was not for a century afterwards that the figure on the cross was shown; and not until the close of the fifth, or even the middle of the sixth century, did it appear without disguise. But from the sixth century onward we find many images—not allegorical, but historical and realistic of the crucified Saviour. [Catholic Encyclopedia (1913 edition) Vol. 4, Cross and Crucifix, under Later Development of the Crucifix] or for ease, which will get you to the page.
                      [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Cross_and_Crucifix]

                      Cofion (Regards)

                      Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                    • Hi Jero,

                      My criticism of your posts have been consistent- you make many claims with no evidence, base much of your judgment of the Christian faith on the ancient Roman Catholic Church and when presented with substantive evidence that clearly shows you are wrong, you merely persist with the same incorrect reasoning.

                      And frankly for all of the challenging you do on here it is rather ironic that you would say you are being lambasted or personally attacked once you are challenged back. You cannot claim to be here for a “good debate” and then claim you are being personally attacked when someone disagrees with you.

                      The John Darby rapture theory is a product of the internet. No theologian or Biblical historian of merit would ever agree with it. There is ample evidence of Christians believing in the pre-tribulation rapture recorded in manuscripts going back to the second century. I provided the link with citations that clearly shows this. So there is nothing left to debate unless you challenge the ancient evidence itself.

                      Repeating unsupported assertions is not debating. Do you have anything to say regarding the evidence that refutes you?

                    • Hello B and E,

                      I trust that you are well today and BLESSED by our LORD GOD ALMIGHTY!

                      I am currently reading the MESSAGE BIBLE (Contemporary Version) and need an answer to something I ponder on:-

                      1. After BC which means AD they found plenty scrolls (where did they find these scrolls and where are they kept now?) with facts that many including the disciples scripted their daily activities when with CHRIST and so on…… Who took notes and kept journals of the times BC i.e. Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Sarai AKA Sarah, Lot, Ham, Shem etc ???

                      If you can give me any sound answers it will be greatly appreciated.

                      Have a super day.

                      Deborah

                    • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                      Hi B&E
                      I have to again disagree, all my comments have been credited, and B&E has never presented me with substantive evidence to date, as you imply in your comment to me. I stand by my citation for the Plymouth Brethren or Irvingites (the followers of Edward Irvine), along with John Darby, as being the inventors of the Pre-Tribulation doctrine, with one amendment, by adding the name, Margaret Macdonald, a young Scottish girl, who is said to of proposed the Pre-Tribulation theory to Edward Irving in 1830.
                      If you done have the information at hand, you can get very reliable information of the internet if you look for the scholarly work, with most written by scholars with DD’s; PhD’s, etc.
                      Where again is your evidence to refute me?

                      Cofion (Regards)

                      Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                    • It’s very simple Jero, you come here with old proven wrong theories about the pre-trib rapture and accuse us of bias and falsely, and maybe stupidly, believing in the pre-trib rapture. Maybe that theory confirm your desire of the rapture happening after the tribulation but in no way the Darby theory is a fact.

                      You simply stopped short in your researches as I did a year ago but I kept digging and didn’t stopped. The Bible on the other hand clearly state that Paul is waiting for it. His epistle has been written some 20 years prior the destruction of the temple. So his waiting for it has nothing to do with a false teaching that he thought he was in the tribulation.

                      Study Jewish traditions and cultures related to Jesus teaching and Paul’s teaching like the wedding tradition-ark of covenant, God’s covenant with Israel and the law of first fruit (3 of them). Another one is the priesthood, and so on. God acts in pattern that the Devil can’t overcome even if he knows that pattern. You will also realize why things were more obvious to them (jewish apostle to some extent) than us. Paul,as opposed to the apostles, was a Torah scholar and understood the old testament better than most of us even today. It still required Jesus direct intervention to set him on the right path. Hey, the guy was chosen directly by Christ to write the fundamentals of Christianity. The Holy Spirit was undeniably guiding him. But the Holy Spirit forgot to correct his beliefs about the rapture? Therefore invalidating the entire Bible?

                      On the other hand,
                      The fact that you want to believe human teaching over Bible teaching is quite telling.
                      Same with your lack of understanding of Christianity and of the Bible when referring to Christian barbary.
                      Your extensive study of human teaching and your citation of phd’s as being irrefutable proof that Paul simply didn’t get it is also quite telling.

                      Therefore, the fact that you abide by your Darby statement is irrelevant. From that, if you’re honest with yourself, you need to decide to dig further instead of telling us that you keep believing you’re right and we’re wrong even though we have more knowledge on the subject. You are merely arguing against a fact. And that could last forever.

                      Here’s just a beginning that I have quickly googled for you:

                      Start of Quote:

                      The Margaret MacDonald Origin

                      One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.

                      Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

                      One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.

                      With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.

                      End of quote

                      Start from there and go on! Look at the following and verify his statements for yourself:
                      http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/tt11.html

                      But the best thing to do is to study the Bible and all of what’s in it. Jacob’s trouble is for Jacob. We are not Jacob children. The entire 70 weeks of Daniel are obviously about Israel. The gap between 69-70 is important otherwise there wouldn’t be any gap. Revelation is about the Jewish nation not the Church. The tribulation serves the purpose of bringing his nations back to him. If the Christians are part of the tribulations, there won’t be only two (2) witnesses in Jerusalem because I’ll be there also with many other Christians, therefore disproving the Bible to the world.

                    • Hi Sebastien, Also, may I add that one has to wonder what interest a self-proclaimed atheist has in the pre-trib/post-trib debate? That’s akin to you and I arguing about who would win an arm wresting match between Hercules and Atlas 🙂 God bless and keep your posts coming.

                    • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon
                      Hi B&E
                      I had a feeling you would quote the scriptures as the basis of your argument to authenticate the Pre-Tribulation. Sorry, that is not good enough, especially in light of the past of the New Testament, with spurious additions and it thousands of interpolation, it would be like me citing an article from the Mad magazine as factual.
                      Anyway, I think that is enough said on this topic, we should move on to fresher pastures, so to speak.

                      Cofion (Regards)

                      Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                    • Hi Jero,

                      Once again, you have proven my point. The article contains quotes from historical documents written by Christians. It is not Bible Scripture. And the documents – writings on the faith of early Christians, show they believed in the pre-tribulation Rapture. And this pre-dated Darby by 1600 years. So again, when presented with actual, substantive evidence, you just ignore it and continue with incorrect reasoning. And now you are resorting to just making insults. So as I said initially, my criticism of you stands.

                    • Bore da /Good morning
                      Hi B&E
                      We are not going to agree on this article, so I will beg your leave and withdraw from making any more comments on the Rapture.

                      Diolch yn fawr iawn a cofion (Thank you very much and best wishes)

                      Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

              • Deborah Correia: Please can you let me know how I can display my photograph in the block supplied so that we all know who we are talking to.

                I’m sorry- I completely missed this.

                You can create the picture at http://www.gravatar.com – It’s a simple avatar, but will allow you to maintain an identity on most WordPress blogs.

              • we live not by the Ten Commandments, but the two new commandments which cover it all ie love your God with all your heart soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. We are u saved by grace through faith not by works lest no man should boast. Although we should do works after we are reborn, this is not how to achieve salvation. And for the people who say the post tribes are saying, “bring it on” I don’t think they are. We just want to endure and overcome as required and are willing to not love our life to the end. We are willing to be martyrs not actually wanting to be persecuted. And for the people willing to beheaded, yes, I feel this is getting off almost easy but the truth is you may be burned alive, crucified, repeatedly tortured, and women and little girls, I mean little, are repeatedly brutally raped to the point of death or mutilation requiring surgery and permanently being barren. I believe that this will be the worst part perhaps much worse than death, starvation or dehydration as many are forced to endure watching their loved ones be tortured so they might deny the faith. Please pray you will be strong and continue to stand in that day should you have to. God bless you greatly, people. There ARE much worse things than death. I do hope I am wrong and we go before it gets really bad…

        • It is amazing that people don’t want to accept the rapture. Paul is clearly waiting for it before the tribulation. Otherwise he wouldn’t even talk about it before it. He would at least mention that the tribulation has obviously started since he’s waiting for it. Why would God make the Bible false by such a misleading verse. If one verse is useless or wrong or false then the whole Bible is irrelevant. Saying that he or him said that the bible is wrong and that there’s not pre-tribulation rapture based on no more solid facts than the solid facts of the pre-trib believers, makes me realize that the world without the holy spirit will EASILY believe the Antichrist and is false prophet and the woman who rides the beast. The people mentioned as non pre-tribulation believers above are incredibly knowledgeable and have brought incredible insight to the Christian community. But they definitely got it wrong somewhere about the rapture.

          Learn about the first fruit law and the jewish wedding among other things and you’ll discoverer incredible parallels with the rapture.

            • Hello,

              We have to look at Thessalonians 4:17 and our goal as believers should be to truly / logically understand these scriptures. Even where I live in Cape Town SA there is a lot of debates / arguments about the pre-tribulation, tribulation and rapture. I have accepted JESUS as my SAVIOR and am not Catholic (I was initially brought up as a Catholic) so I am not terribly worried about all of the above but I must say it does intrigue me and I would like to get it correct. I suppose we will have to wait and see – Intriguing.

              GOD has a sense of humor and leaves a bit of mystery and that is what makes the brain think which is what it is there for. GOD wants us to share thoughts and think in an amicable manner. That is what I love about this site as it is challenging and I have learnt so much.

              Have a wonderful day

              Deborah

              • Hi,
                I have to say that I don’t understand why there’s debates about pre-mid-post rapture.

                On the other hand, no later than a year ago, I was going from one to another every week so i don’t judge non pre-trib believers but things are so clear to me now that I just can’t understand anymore why.

                As I keep mentioning, what really did it for me was the studying of the jewish traditions and cultures. I’m not an expert at all, but i have read and confirmed from different sources.

                Have a very nice day.

            • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
              Hi B&E
              You have asked many of the commentator on their beliefs and religion, etc. You also aligned Catholicism as a political organisation, and yet, you preach Pauline Christianity, which the universal (catholic) church invented. The original followers (Nazarenes/Ebionites) of the man Jesus, had nothing to do with this self-made inventor, and self-made apostle, Paul. The Jerusalem church detested Paul for his criminality, so why revere such a man that would lie, cheat, steal and murder!
              These are but two comment about Paul, written by esteemed scholars. The great theologian Søren Kierkegaard, writing in ‘The Journals,’ echoes the above sentiment: “In the teachings of Christ, religion is completely present tense: Jesus is the prototype and our task is to imitate him, become a disciple. But then through Paul came a basic alteration. Paul draws attention away from imitating Christ and fixes attention on the death of Christ The Atoner. What Martin Luther, in his reformation failed to realize, is that even before Catholicism, Christianity had become degenerate at the hands of Paul. Paul made Christianity the religion of Paul, not of Christ, Paul threw the Christianity of Christ away, completely turning it upside down. Making it just the opposite of the original proclamation of Christ.”
              Dr. High Schonfield reports: “It was not only the teaching and activities of Paul which made him obnoxious to the Christian leaders: but their awareness that he set his revelations above their authority and claimed an intimacy with the mind of Jesus, greater than that of those who had companied with him on earth and had been chosen by him….It was an abomination, especially as his ideas were so contrary to what they knew of Jesus, that he should pose as the embodiment of the Messiah ‘s will….Paul was seen as the demon-driven enemy of the Messiah….For the legitimate Church, Paul was a dangerous and disruptive influence, bent on enlisting a large following among the Gentiles in order to provide himself with a numerical superiority with the support of which he could set at defiance the Elders at Jerusalem. Paul had been the enemy from the beginning. and because he failed in his former open hostility he had craftily insinuated himself into the fold to destroy it from within.”[Those incredible Christians]

              Cofion (Regards)
              Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

              • Hi Jero, Seems to me that you are viewing your history under the “pick and choose” bias of atheism. On this statement, I’m sure your response would be that I am also biased towards Christianity and a belief in God, and you would also be correct. The fact of the matter is that there is no such thing as any human reasoning that is not biased! It just can’t happen. I believe that you have to consider ALL of the evidence and go with what’s the most plausible and reasonable scenario. The bottom line, to me, is that all of this thing called the universe and especially life could in no way have just “happened” by blind, random chance! There had to be an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent presence to have initiated this present existence that we find ourselves in. There is no way for it to have just started on its own without a transendant initiation. If it did, then why do we not continue to see new universes and new life continue to just “evolve” from nothing today? If life can spontaneously evolve from non-living materials, then how come the most sophisticated multi-million dollar biology labs to date have yet to produce a single solitary cell of life from non-living material? It seems that life cannot be created by the most elaborate and ambitious of human controlled conditions so how in the world could life simply spontaneously evolve with absolutely no external influence? Mathemeticians have actually tried to calcualte the odds against such a fantastic event occuring and I think one number that was arrived at was like one in 10^40000 – a “one” followed by forty-thousand zeroes! (There are likely less than 10^90 subatomic particles in the entire observable universe!)
                Now as far as your quotational source that the Apostle Paul perverted the teachings of Christ and that he was trying to start his own “cult”, well considering that Paul likely led all of the other founding church fathers/apostles in the realm of suffering for his faith (and none of them were “slouches” in the suffering department!), he was physically beaten at least 5 times, he was stoned and left for dead, he was hated by his own peer group of Pharisees, he spent the last several years of his life under Roman incarceration, and ultimately was executed by decapitation. So, I would have to strongly disagree with that historical persceptive of Paul, because if his sole objective was personal gain and notoriety, then he was a most miserable failure!

                • Noswaith Da/Good Evening and Hi
                  Hi Dewi (David)
                  Thanks for your comments. No, I do not pick and choose history, I am neither for or against, what I do not like is hypocrisy or double standards of making history fit what Christianity assumes to be true, when it is just misguided or mislead faith on the part of the early church. I do not agree with your assumptions ‘that you have to consider ALL of the evidence and go with what’s the most plausible and reasonable scenario.’ It is not how we in history research go about our projects, we are not after hypothesis, we are after historical facts to gain the truth. We do not blindly our trust in faith, we have to authenticate, not once, but three or more, before we attest information as being true! When you talk about an omnipotent being, whom I take you are referring to the creator of the universe, some 13.8 billion years ago, and not the God of the bible. Who was probably the last of the gods to appear to human kind a mere 6,000 ago. I believe in science and the great thinkers of our time, who categorically state that: ‘God no longer has any place in theories on the creation of the Universe due to a series of developments in physics.'[from the book “A brief History of Time” by British scientist, Stephen Hawking] One also has to remember that the ‘Big Bang’ theory was first developed in the 1920’s by a theologian, Belgium catholic priest, astronomer and Prof. of physics, Georges Lemaître (1894-1966). Your argument that science cannot produce anything from dead material, and that a divine intervention is needed, you would be better coming into the 21st century. They have extracted DNA from Mammoths, Egyptian mummies and science has produced Dolly the Sheep.
                  On Paul you forgot that he was shipwrecked in Malta on his way to Rome, and he found, whilst incarcerated, ink and paper to write his biography. Ignatius of Antioch (35 or 50—98 or 117) was another saint who wrote his letters whilst incarcerated before he was eaten by lions, however, scholarship consensus is that his letters (epistles) were fakes and forgeries from the 3rd century.

                  Cofion a nos da (Regards and good night)
                  Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                  • Jero, well your so-called examples of “21st century science” that “refute” my statement that “life cannot be created by the most sophisticated of human attempts” still does NOT show life being created from non-living material. All that your examples show is pre-existent life being altered and/or modified. I challenge you to show me where any laboratory has taken a totally sterile sample of dirt and created ANY form of living DNA from it. And I stand by my statement that your viewpoint is indeed biased, as you vigorously quote any historical findings that bolster your view that Christianity has a very jaded history of violence and evil deeds and yet you seem so ignorant of the historical malice of Islam for one. Like I said, I admit that my viewpoint is biased, it just seems that you don’t won’t to admit that yours is. I won’t argue with any more of your points as it’s obvious that neither of us are going to change our point of view (I’m >50 years old as I’m sure from reading your posts that you are probably older than I am, too).

                    • Bore Da/good Morning and Hi
                      Hi Dewi/David
                      This is also my final comment on this matter, which Isn’t biased on my part, but is scientific, and none of my work is biased fore or against, it is historical fact!
                      On the matter of your age, I am indeed older, my late daughter would have been your age.
                      Science tells us that the earth was created 4.55 billion years ago (roughly around the same time as the sun), from colliding space debris, which over time built-up into a planetary form very different from that of earth today. A scared landscape empty of water (or very little), with frequent meteor strikes creating what we perceive today as Dante’s Inferno. Science has also supplied us with how life first started on earth with what is termed a primordial stew (slime), which took millions of years of evolution. Then we go from a single cell organism (microbes) with further evolution to a gradually multiplying cell, who by this time live in the sea, before some ventured on land. However, if we go back to earth creation—can we say the earth was sterile? Proof of what science has taught us about earth’s evolution of life, became fact in the mid 1990’s, when scientist found Martian microbes in a meteorite found in earth’s Antarctica. NASA believed the meteorite fell to earth some 16 million years ago, however, at the time of discovery, NASA thought at first it was earth microbes from the frozen waste that had contaminated the sample. That was until another Martian meteorite was found in a dessert with the same microbes, etc., which was reported worldwide in 2009.
                      [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/6660045/Bacteria-from-Mars-found-inside-ancient-meteorite.html]
                      Men have prophecies all sorts events of future, man has also unwittingly predicted happenings, Mary Shelly (1797-1851) wrote a fictional novel about creating a living being out of body parts. Science went one further and used DNA to produce life, a copy (clone) of the donor. Biologist have been producing life (bacteria) since the 1800’s. Christians, however, say that all this science is against gods will! But, mortal men for millennia have been making themselves god! The Egyptian Pharaohs and Roman emperors believed they were gods, then Christianity in 325 CE, made a mortal man a god, then in 431 CE, they made his mother a Goddess, and in 1869 a gathering of Bishops made their pope a demigod, by making him infallible.

                      Cofion a cael diwrnod da (Regards and have a good day)

                      Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                    • Jero,

                      You are incredibly confused and all we can provide are prayers, from this blog, at this point. We cannot continue to debate your atheism, evolution, your undesired understanding of Christianity and the Bible on this blog. You are clearly hijacking this site to spread misinformation and confuse people that seeks God.

                      Evolution is not a science but a belief and that is a fact. Evolution goes against several fundamental scientific rules and laws.It’s beyond the ridicule of statistic, it creates matter with more energy than previously, the speed of light is assumed has a constant, there’s always something coming from nothing… Therefore, by scientific laws, it takes more faith to believe in evolution than in God.

                      B&E: your post has been hijacked you’ll have to make a decision but I’ll will not return, not even to help people seeking pre-tribulation information.

                      Have all a good and blessed day.

                      Please chose a site that discuss the several topics you have started on this blog. This is about the pre-tribulation rapture that factually predates Darby.

                    • Hi Sebastien,

                      Thanks for your concern. You will have to debate with Jero at your own risk, for lack of a better term. As you have correctly pointed out, his comments center on polemics against the Roman Catholic Church. And I appreciate your concern for the thread being taken off track. An appropriate warning has been given. God bless.

        • Bore Da/Good Morning and Hi
          Hi RETS
          This subject of the Rapture has been debated by scholars, clerics and laymen for sometime, and has confused people on their stance of which belief that they adhere to, Tribulation or Pre-Tripulation. If we believe both these, then Tribulation belongs to the Bible verse of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, and Matthew 24:40, which Christians have taken as a fruitless prophecy. However, the pre-Tribulation belongs to 19th and 20th century man-made fiction, created by the Futurist movement in the 1830’s, led by John Nelson Darby, who took it upon himself to rewrite the scripture to suit his brand of Christianity. (This is more proof of the Bible being the work of man, with man’s own thoughts and fallible translations, including interpolations, etc.) Which was later taken up by the infamous Cyrus I. Scofield, a known villain, who published his Reference Bible, in 1909, commonly known as the Scofield.
          The same root word for Rapture is used to name birds of Prey—Raptors, birds that were once seen by the ancestors as deities, lords of the clouds, lords of the air, and lords of the sky. We all interpret what we see or read differently, and we can see parallels in everything, it might be only one word, or half a sentence, it all comes down to who is interpreting. For myself, I see a parallel between 1 Thessalonian 4:17, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. And that of the way Native American see the Eagle. The dictionary of scripture and myth, describes the eagle as;
          A symbol of the holy spirit, which flies, as it were, through the mind (air) from the higher nature (heaven) to the lower nature (earth) and soars aloft to the self (sun). [http://www.eaglespiritministry.com/works/ese.htm]
          And moreso in the story of the Sweat Lodge, were the Bluejay wants to be an Eagle:
          …Sweat Lodge called Eagle and asked, “What do you wish to be, Eagle?”
          “Just what I am—an Eagle.”
          “Let us see you fly,” replied Sweat Lodge.
          Eagle flew, rising higher and higher with hardly a ripple on his outstretched wings.
          Sweat Lodge called him back and said, “You are an Eagle. You will be king over all the Birds of the Air. You will soar in the Sky. You will live on the crags and peaks of the highest Mountains. Human Beings will admire you.”
          Eagle flew away happy. Everyone watched him disappear in the Sky.
          “I wish to be like Eagle,” Bluejay told Sweat Lodge.
          Wanting to give everyone a chance, Sweat Lodge said again, “Then let us see you fly.”
          Bluejay tried to imitate the easy, graceful flight of Eagle, but failed to keep his balance and was soon flapping his wings.
          Sweat Lodge called him back. “A Jay is a Jay. You will have to be content as you are….”
          [http://www.cyberbohemia.com/Pages/hotrock.htm]
          In ancient Egypt and Babel the eagle was; The symbol of the noon sun, which signified the Great Spirit.
          Surely T.R Williams is referring to the Rapture: A sermon written by T. Rhonda Williams explores the tradition within the English church of placing the bible on the outstretched wings of an eagle, and concludes; In sacred symbolism the eagle stands for that power of the rising above the earth, above the physical and the literal, and penetrating spiritual institution.[Ibid]

          Cofion (regards)

          Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

            • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
              Hi B&E
              Again some one has misread my comments! I was referring to the Pre-Tribulation theology, not the Tribulation, check my comments. I stand by my statement that certain Christian factions, wrote their own brand of Christianity, which was known as the Futurist movement. This is what the say: Pre-Tribulation rapture theology was developed in the 1830’s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture#cite_ref-12]

              Cofion (Regards)

              Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

              • The pre-tibulation theology predate Darby. It has been proven on countless occasions and is very well documented. That you stick to wikipedia as your source is simply your choice.

          • Before answering your question, I have discovered that in the comments section on this blog, it is wise to give a few disclaimers, or your thought will be entirely misrepresented by some folks who frequent the section.

            1. The phrase “Early Church Fathers” refers to a large group of men (and women, ironically) from the first century through the 1200’s. There are some scholars who argue that this term can only apply to those from the first century, while others place the cutoff for that term’s application at around 1100 AD.

            2. There are also those who believe that this term applies only to Roman Catholic church leaders. This is a false notion, though understandably believable. Sadly, the history of the Christian church has been skewed (sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally) by leaders of other religions, by Protestant leadership, and even by the RCC itself.

            3. The term “Catholic,” before ever being used as an actual title for those adherents to the teachings, theology and dogma of the RCC, was used from the first century through approximately 800 AD to reference the global Body of Christ. The word that Catholic is taken from means “universal,” and was used in such a way as to imply the entire Body of Christ, not just one sect/group.

            4. When one refers to any Early Church Father, it is inevitable to find the word “Catholic” in their writings; it is just as inevitable to see that many of them held a position within the “Catholic Church.” Again, this term applies only to the RCC in the most recent of this group. Prior to around 620-680 AD, there was no RCC as we know it. When it was founded (not by Constantine as many claim, but by the crowning of Charlemagne a great deal later), it still took approximately 100 years before the term applied almost exclusively to the RCC.

            5. The referencing of an Early Church Father does not equate to a support of RCC catechism, theology, teaching or dogma. Moreover, many of those Early Church Fathers wrote much of the theology and apologetics still understood and used in the whole of Christianity today- Not just within the RCC, but Protestantism also. Denying the way in which God used these men (their writings were of Divine Inspiration, though much was certainly divinely inspired) is to also reject the majority of the foundation upon which modern apologetics, evangelism, and nearly all theological work is based upon. Our foundation is Christ and our message is the Gospel- It was this group of men and women who laid the foundation for explaining, teaching and reaching people with these most basic and vital of truths.

            Now with that out of the way, (and sorry for the length), allow me to answer your question.

            There are those two often brought up in these discussion, namely Hermas and Irenaeus, however there was also (as mentioned in this article) Cyprian and Ephraim the Syrian.

            What many do not catch (perhaps because they have not read the whole of their writings for the complete context of statements) is that Justin Martyr and Clement of Alexandria also spoke of a rapture scenario, though not using the word specifically. (Much as the word “trinity” is not found within the Bible.)

            Finally, there are accounts of Clement of Rome referencing such a scenario as well in his teachings, though most of his writings are lost to the ages, it seems.

            In terms of the rapture being an invention of John Darby, as was the charge I was responding to originally, one must realize that John Darby lived from 1800 to 1882, and only began espousing his take on the rapture sometime in his early thirties. However, those who believe he “invented” the rapture miss the fact that others throughout Christian history also spoke of it, aside from the most recognized Early Church Fathers, long before he was born. What follows is a partial list, and dates to make the point:

            -Victorinus, died 303 AD;

            -Ephraem of Nisibis, died 373 AD;

            -Brother Dolcino, died 1307 AD;

            -Joseph Mede, 1627 AD;

            -Increase Mather, d. 1723;

            -Peter Jurieu, 1687;

            -Morgan Edwards, d. 1744;

            -John Gill, 1748

            I offer this excess only for the sake of going the distance in regards to the John Darby claim.

            I hope that I did answer your question, however.

            • Thanks for that excellent explanation. Not sure that I’ve ever seen this subject matter laid out that well in such as relatively brief summation. There is certainly no lack of controversy amongst the Christian community regarding the Rapture and/or Second Coming in the Pre-trib vs. Post-trib debate! I tend to lean more toward the pre-trib (or at least mid-trib, prior to the opening of the Seven Seals and Trumpet Judgements) side of the debate, as the “Day of the Lord / Armageddon” scenario just doesn’t seem to fit into the same event as the “thief-in-the-night / sudden catching away” narrative. At least I certainly do hope that is the case, but it probably doesn’t hurt to be mentally prepared for a post-trib scenario, either, “just in case”.

              • Thank you, David.

                Based upon a great deal of study, I have found myself firmly believing that the Rapture of the Church occurs between the 5th and 6th seals- So I would be labeled “mid-trib” though I think of it as “pre-wrath.”

                The reason for this belief is a lot of complex studies on language, structure, context and a crazy amount of comparison and critical examination. Long and short of it is that it is around this point that the word(s) used to describe the Church cease to be used until speaking of it specifically with Christ. Everything in between takes place on Earth (or around Earth) without the specific referenced Church present. Critics like to make the point that I’m engaging in isogesis, but in truth it is very strict exogesis- Isogesis is inferring the Church to be present wherein there is no exclusive reference.

                Regardless, as I said to James Fox, we live as though Christ returns in our next breath, and prepare as though He returns at the bitter end.

                • You said,

                  “I have found myself firmly believing that the Rapture of the Church occurs between the 5th and 6th seals- So I would be labeled “mid-trib”

                  I believe the Rapture happens at the 6’th seal and the 6’th and 7’th seal are the Second Advent. Why?

                  In the 6’th seal, Rev. 6:12-13, the sun is darkened, the moon turns blood red, and the stars fall from the sky. In Mt. 24:29, which is the Second Advent, the sun is darkened, the moon’s light is affected, and the stars fall from the sky. How often will you see these 3 events happen at the same time? The obvious explanation is they are the same event. The 6’th seal is the Second Advent.

                  Also note Rev 6:17. “For the great day of their wrath has come.” This only makes sense at the Second Advent. Are we supposed to believe there is an even greater day of wrath 3.5 years later at the Second Advent? It does not say that. It says THIS is the great day of wrath. Not some future day.

                  Why do I think the 7’th seal is also the Second Advent? It is because I think the 7’th seal, 7’th trumpet, and 7’th bowl, are the same event – the Second Advent.

                  The 7’th seal, Rev. 8:5 has peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake. NIV.

                  The 7’th trumpet, Rev. 11:19 has flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a hailstorm

                  The 7’th bowl, Rev. 16:18,21 has flashes of lighting, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a hailstorm.

                  The 7’th seal is missing the hailstorm but otherwise they are identical. How often will you see these events happen at the same time? The obvious explanation is they are the same event. It is an extremely important event. The earthquake in Rev. 16 is the greatest earthquake in the history of mankind. Which event is it? The Second Advent.

                  • Once again, it seems I owe you a debt of gratitude.

                    The last couple of months have been trying for my wife and I, as we have been reeling from a severe financial blow. Right now, we are currently living in a home with no electricity, which means to access power and the internet, I’ve had to frequent coffee shops.

                    As you may imagine, this can have an effect on one’s concentration and train of thought.

                    I will go back and recheck my notes. Thank you, James.

                    • Wow! God bless you and your wife RETS! I hope you guys aren’t residing in as warm a part of the country as I do, as no electricity means no A/C. I couldn’t imagine having to endure even a single day of summer in the southern US without A/C! It may be September already, but summer definitely AIN’T over just yet! Anyway, I’ll try to keep you guys in my prayers, as this is obviously a very trying time for you.

                    • David, we live in New Mexico. God has nonetheless been faithful and good to provide our needs and bring us to cool places for the hottest parts of the day. She works with Gluten Free Gourmet and I’m a freelance writer- Works out pretty well when we’ve got a stable financial base.

                      Thank you for your prayers!

                    • By the way, it should be noted that Rev. 4:5 also mentions flashes of lighting, rumblings, and peals of thunder like the 7’th seal and 7’th trumpet, and 7’th bowl. However it is missing earthquake and hailstorm. Rev 4:5 is about heaven It does not make sense to have an earthquake or a hailstorm – bad events – in heaven. The 7’th seal, trumpet, and bowl are something different. They are on the earth.

                  • When the Antichrist is revealed, he causes all to receive his mark. So, then if all believers refuse the mark of the beast, they will be beheaded. So then here comes the question, who will then be left to be caught up with the Lord If all believers are dead? I believe the rapture will occur before the Antichrist forces his mark, or is revealed.

            • You said, “In terms of the rapture being an invention of John Darby,…. However, those who believe he “invented” the rapture ….”

              You were responding to Suzanne. I read all her comments in this thread and she did not say anything like this.

              I would be astonished if anyone thought that Darby invented the Rapture. The Rapture is clearly in 1 Thess 4:16 -…gathered in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

              What Darby did was rediscover the idea that the Rapture was at the beginning of the Tribulation. He thought he was the first with this idea. Actually, Ephraim of Nisibis thought the Tribulation was 3.5 years long and the Rapture was at the beginning, “All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come….” Tim Lahaye, The Popular Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy p 317.

              Ephraim is the only one before Darby who clearly thought the Rapture was before the Tribulation. Darby essentially invented the idea of pre-tribulationism but he did not invent the idea of Rapture.

              • Hi (Iago Llwynog ) James Fox
                I think this has been said before! The rapture doctrine does not appear in any Christian text before the 1830’s, and John Nelson Darby is hailed as its inventor c. 1830. However, Edward Irvine (1792-1834) another theologian is said to of mentioned the rapture prior to Darby, but there is insufficient evidence that exist on this matter. D.L. Moody the founder of the famous Moody Bible Institution, is probable the greatest promulgator of the Darby rapture doctrine, and it is he who conservative Christians have to thank for what they have today concerning the rapture. Although it was past from Moody to other theologian who were part or came into contact with the Moody institute, such as Cyrus Scofield, L. Sperry Chafer, etc.
                Many mythicist sites have Margaret MacDonald (visionary) as the inventor of the rapture doctrine, however, historians have well exhausted that theory, she is more likely to of invented the McDonald’s fast food chain (jk). John Darby was one of the investigators, whom the Plymouth Brethren sent to investigate Macdonald’s work, and came to the conclusion that was of a satanic nature. Darby can also put Dispensationalism to his inventions, as both go together, along with other very long 19th century words, such as: pretribulationists, pretribulationalism, premillennialism, posttribulational, as well as Dispensationalists.
                On the prophecy of the rapture doctrine, hundreds or even thousands have been predicted over the centuries, but none have come to fruition, even this month (September 23rd 2015) a Mark Biltz (?) has predicted the 2nd coming of Jesus, and that too will fail. Which is another prophecy for financial gain through books, etc. and will give sceptics mythicist an opportunity to ridicule and refute Christianity.

                Cofion (Respect)
                Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                • Aren’t you contradicting yourself?

                  First you say

                  I think this has been said before! The rapture doctrine does not appear in any Christian text before the 1830’s,

                  And then you say:

                  On the prophecy of the rapture doctrine, hundreds or even thousands have been predicted over the centuries, but none have come to fruition,

                  If hundreds or even thousands have predicted the rapture doctrine, then isn’t your first sentence wrong?

                  1 Thess 4:17 says we “will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” This is the sine qua non of the Rapture. Isn’t this an ancient reference to the Rapture?

                  I would be surprised, but perhaps no early church father mentioned “gathered in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” However, I have seen quotes from early church fathers who said the church would go through the Tribulation which, if true, means pre-trib is wrong. Mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib could be true but not pre-trib.

                  • Hi (Iago Llwynog ) James Fox
                    You are right, I have contradicted myself, it was the wrong choice of a word on my behalf.
                    I am truly sorry for misleading you, and all on B+E. It should have read: On the prophecy of the rapture doctrine, hundreds or even thousands have been predicted over the century, but none have come to fruition.
                    Again I was wrong to use the term rapture in the prophecy, which is also misleading, and I am sorry for that. It should of been the return or the 2nd coming of Jesus, which hundreds of prophecies have been foretold, in the past and there are several still to come in the future, with the next prediction coming in 25 days from now (September 28th 2015).
                    I am not putting it down to old age, tiredness or the excitement of the last few days, for my mistakes. I should have concentrated more on the subject, and for that I am again truly sorry to you.

                    Cofion (Regards)
                    Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

              • Good afternoon, James.

                I would very much like to see what you base your statement upon. To say that “Ephraim is the only one before Darby who clearly thought the Rapture was before the Tribulation” seems like an extremely far reaching statement. It is also one that I have not seen a great deal of evidence for in my studies.
                That being said, if you have any reference points that I could look up (book references work best- I prefer my own library to the internet), I’d be forever grateful.

                .
                As a second point, thank you for pointing out that my response was to Suzanne- But it was actually to Ryan Waldrop, and referencing Scofield. It seems ironic to me that I have heard from two camps on the issue of pre-trib rapture being false: One group believes the notion was invented by Darby, the other by Scofield.

                However, I do appreciate you pointing out who I was originally responding to as it has given me the opportunity to correct myself. Though the argument against a pre-trib rapture using Darby is in almost every fundamental way the same as that using Scofield, I would rather be as accurate as possible, and correct anything I was mistaken on in terms of factual reference.

                Thank you again!

                .
                You’d be surprised if anyone thought Darby invented the rapture? You would absolutely be surprised then. I regularly run into no fewer than 100-120 people a year that are firmly convinced Darby invented the rapture; they do not believe 1 Ths 5:16 refers to the rapture, but the second coming. I run into about twice that on average who believe it was invented by Scofield; and about half again that who think that Moody had something to do with what these people perceive to be “heresy.”

                My friend, they are out there, and they are…. Well, I won’t say legion, but they are many!

                .
                For the record, I am pretty firmly convinced that the rapture falls between the fifth and sixth seals; as such, I don’t even fall into the pre-trib camp. I presented the above to (1) Specifically to point out that the Rapture is not an invention of Darby (or Scofield for that matter) but that the doctrine pre-existed them, and was also espoused by the Early Church Fathers; and (2) Give a starting point for someone else’s further study.

                Clement of Alexandria, for instance, spoke of a pre-trib and a post-trib set of scenarios- He settled on a mid-trib outlook, but his early works were decidedly pre.

                Prior to Origen’s going off the reservation (as it were), he also believed in a pre-trib view. He made the point that no believer needs to be purified or purged through tribulation if Christ’s sacrifice was perfect and whole; since it was, Christ’s work does not need or require anything further (aside from the obedience of the believer) to work.

                Anyway- God bless and take care. This is one aspect of our shared faith that does not actually affect our salvation: We live as though Christ returns in our next breath, and we prepare as though His return is at the bitter end.

                • You said,

                  “I would very much like to see what you base your statement upon. To say that “Ephraim is the only one before Darby who clearly thought the Rapture was before the Tribulation” seems like an extremely far reaching statement. It is also one that I have not seen a great deal of evidence for in my studies.
                  That being said, if you have any reference points that I could look up “

                  I have an outstanding book about the Rapture, a Ph.D. dissertation by William Bell which says,

                  “The Shepherd of Hermas — Pretribulationism’s Single Supposed Support in the Early Church”

                  Hermas meets a horrific satanic beast. But the beast lies down in front of him and Hermas passes by. Hermas then meets a lady who he knows is the Church and she tells him “By your faith you have escaped great persecution.” The Shepherd of Hermas Fourth Vision Chapters I and II, The Fathers of the Church: The Apostolic Fathers, I, 254-56.

                  Thiessen, a famous pre-tribulationist says, “We seem to have in the Shepherd of Hermas a fairly clear indication of the fact that there were those who believed that the church would be taken away before that period of judgment begins.” Thiessen, “Will the Church Pass Through the Tribulation?” Biblioteca Sacra, 92:196, Jan-March 1935.

                  Bell points out that in a later vision in Hermas he is told, “So, tell the leaders of the Church to rectify their ways in justice, that they may fully receive the promises with great glory. …. Blessed are you who will endure the great persecution that is to come….” The Shepherd of Hermas Second Vision Chapter II, p 238. So Thiessen is wrong, Hermas is not pre-trib.

                  I took Bell at his word that there were no other passages from the church fathers that taught pre-trib.

                  However decades later Tim LaHaye, The Popular Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy, p, 317 mentioned Ephraim of Nisibis. He also mentioned another, Brother Dolcino 1307 AD. who strongly appears to be pre-trib. I did not mention him because I think 1307 is not a church father. If there were any other pre-trib church fathers LaHaye would surely have mentioned them. So I assume there are no others.

                  You said,

                  “You’d be surprised if anyone thought Darby invented the rapture? You would absolutely be surprised then. I regularly run into no fewer than 100-120 people a year that are firmly convinced Darby invented the rapture; they do not believe 1 Ths 5:16 refers to the rapture, but the second coming. I run into about twice that on average who believe it was invented by Scofield; and about half again that who think that Moody had something to do with what these people perceive to be “heresy.”

                  If they think Darby is heresy then they are probably post-trib. Post-trib does indeed believe 1 Thess. 4:16-17 is the second advent, as you say, but they also believe it is the Rapture too.

                  1 Thess 4:17 says “gathered in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” That is the definition of Rapture. How can anybody says this is not the Rapture. They may think it is the Second Advent, but it must at least be the Rapture too.

                  You said,

                  “Clement of Alexandria, for instance, spoke of a pre-trib and a post-trib set of scenarios- He settled on a mid-trib outlook, but his early works were decidedly pre.

                  Prior to Origen’s going off the reservation (as it were), he also believed in a pre-trib view.”

                  Can you quote them and give chapter and verse? Why didn’t LaHaye quote them too? Perhaps like Hermas, they said something that might be construed as pre-trib but later they said the church would go through the Tribulation so they can not be pre-trib

        • You are correct there were many disciples of the Apostles (church fathers) that believed in the Pre-trib scenario and made it clear.

          http://biblefacts.org/church/ephream.html

          Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord.

          Shalom

          • You said,

            “You are correct there were many disciples of the Apostles (church fathers) that believed in the Pre-trib
            scenario and made it clear.”

            I know of one church father who believed in a pre-trib rapture – pseudo-ephraem – who you quoted.

            I do not believe you can quote another one because there are no others.

              • I do not expect any others because I have not read about any others.

                I learned about Pseudo Ephraem from Tim LaHaye. I think he is a good scholar. I own his book The Popular Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy. I like it even if I disagree with him over the Rapture.

                The only clear early church father he cites is Pseudo Ephraem. He also mentions Brother Dolcino but he was AD 1307, not exactly an early church father.

                He also cites the Shepherd of Hermas, “it will be possible for you to escape it [the tribulation].” But they may escape it by being divinely protected during it. The Shepherd does not say they will be taken away.

                If there were other examples of pre-trib early church fathers, then Tim LaHaye would certainly have cited them.

                If you think there are others, then you cited them.

          • You said,

            “You are correct there were many disciples of the Apostles (church fathers) that believed in the Pre-trib scenario and made it clear.”

            I know of one church father who believed in a pre-trib rapture – Pseudo Ephraem – who you quoted.

            I do not believe you can quote another example because there are no other examples.

    • the tribulation will purge the false christians that wont want to go through persecution and there will be a spotless bride and then Jesus comes back after the falling away.

      • I don’t understand why people want to believe this. they must think it’s going to be epic to see the tribulation unfold from their tv set.
        I once wanted to believe in mid-post trib theory. But after studying the scriptures and looking at every belief position and arguments, I am forced to believe in pre-trib rapture.

        There is a fundamental flaw to mid and post trib theory and it’s the simple understanding of the 70 weeks of Daniel given to the Jews and for the Jews. And an obvious gap for the era of the Gentil-Church-Spouse of Christ.

        If you try to understand the jewish wedding process, and other traditions for that matter, you’ll start to understand that only the bride is waiting for Christ return not the whole world. Also, those that do not watch will stay out or left behind which can’t happen when Christ comes back definitely and “impose” is millennial kingdom era.

        etc.

        God is dealing with the Jews and Christ is dealing with the believers. God needs to bring back His (spouse-nation-children) people that are temporarily separated due to the breaking of the covenant. Christ and the Church are not related to that covenant and to that separation. The Christian and the Jews have different jobs for the millennial and post that. I don’t understand why people want what God as for the Jews to apply to the Church and vice-versa.

        And it does sound like the twelver’s

        Anyway the rapture belief is not what saves us or not so GOD bless u all

        • I take from your comments that you do not believe that Jesus Christ was the last blood sacrifice for the sins of the world including gentiles, white jews, sephardic jews, and other jews? You seem to be saying that the so called jews are protected and the old covenant is still inforce for them and they will restart butchering of animals for sin. Where does Jesus say he is coming back twice?

          • I didn’t say what your saying i said. Well if you don’t understand that, it means that I’m not the one lying here.

            Gentiles can’t be Jews, but Jews can easily as gentiles be Christian (hint: the apostles). Now it seems you don’t get much if you don’t get that the Jews have rejected Christ and what they are looking for right now is to rebuild the temple expecting to make animal sacrifice. That’s very basic understanding.

            If you want all the study on that, well read the Bible. God has a covenant with the Jews and will never break it. It is suspended as “repudiated” but He’s working to get them back otherwise why would Christ return to save them at the end of tribulation. Why would he have brought them back to their land and save them in the six days war and so on. With all the nations around them living to see the day they’ll exterminate them, What?!!!?!!, you think God is not protecting them? C’mon man (NFL inside joke)

            On another note: discrediting people by putting false things in their mouth is a tactic used by Satan, not Christ. Soooooo tired of the “so what you’re saying is ” people that come up with so many lies and false accusations. Usually it’s with the non-belivers that i get that kind of comments… usually under five post I’m a moron stupid racist homophobe islamophobe and what not. Was not expecting this.

            I apologies for being rude but sometime it shake someone good enough to let the light shine. Or it darkens it… Don’t let it get darker please.

            Jesus is not coming back to earth twice only once. That’s in the Bible too. Are you implying that I’m stupid or something? Surely sounds like it.
            Paul is saying that at the rapture, He’s coming on a cloud and we’ll meet him in the air. Where doesn’t is says that it is His second return to earth? Well you might think that Jesus can’t come on the cloud without coming to earth. Where doesn’t it says that’s impossible to Him? Really don’t understand that theory that Jesus can’t do something. Paul also doesn’t say that Jesus is on His way to earth why can’t it be 2 different events at different times?

            Just stop putting lies in other peoples mouth. Asking question is much more polite and decent.

            I waited a long time to answer this because my first replies where much worse than this. But if there’s something that ticks me off is that “so what you’re saying is ….” followed by lies or assumptions not even discussed in the text.

            • Sebastian, I don’t understand the Jewish bridal customs, but I’m intrigues by your thinking. I presently believe post trib or at least mid trib but I want to be wrong of course. If you receive this and want to take the time to explain, I would certainly appreciate it. If not, God bless you and I HOPE you are right.m see you then
              ,

              • Suzanne, there’s a lot to say about the jewish wedding for a short post.

                Here’s one link. This is not enough for a proper study but is a good start. Of course it’s pre-tribulation “biased”.

                http://messianicfellowship.50webs.com/wedding.html

                One need to understand the references made by Jesus:
                – Like a thief in the night
                – Blowing the trumpet and shouting the bride’s name
                – Not entering into the brides house but have her come out to meet him
                – Jesus went back to His Father to prepare a place for the bride. There are many mansions…
                – Only the Father knows the day and the hour
                – The Groom hide the Bride for a week (7 days)

                Then you start realizing that Matt 25:1-13 would be very different if Jesus was referring to a mid/post tribulation rapture.

                The Father and the Son would go on a rampage in the city and beat up His bride just before the wedding celebration starts.

                Then you want to learn about the Feasts – God’s appointment on earth.The first four has been fulfilled by Jesus, then comes:

                The feast of Trumpet: no precise Jewish purpose for that specific one. It’s a holy convocation and they blow the trumpet a 100 times. The last trump being distinct from the others. You can’t know the exact day or hour for the new moon and it’s the only feast like that. the other ones are all on full moon.

                The Feast of Atonement: That’s when God forgives or not the Jewish people or nation as a whole. Sound familiar too? Yes related to Jesus second coming when the remnant recognize Him and beg for forgiveness, which He grants.

                Last one is the Tabernacle: When God Himself comes and tabernacles (abide) with them. It’s a rejoicing like none other and it last specifically 8 days which means new beginning.

                You can read Exodus 19 with a different eye now. God comes down on a cloud and Moses go up to the cloud to meet with God.

                Like in the days of Noah and Lot. All mid-post and most pre tribulation concepts talks about how bad it was in those days and then they stop.

                There are, in fact, 3 extremely specific chronological events that occurs on those days.

                1- The people is Godless
                2- God takes the just and make them escape His judgement
                3- God punish only the unbelievers

                You won’t find that anywhere else in the Bible. Jesus doesn’t refer to the 40 years back in the desert or the 70 years in deportation.

                –

                • The article you cited was interesting but I wonder if part of this is modern custom, not ancient custom.

                  He said of the wedding:

                  ” The groomsmen would again set up the huppah:

                  Again the couple would say a blessing over the cup of wine.
                  The ceremony finalized the promises and vows.
                  The pinnacle of this joyful celebration was the marriage supper:
                  It was much more than just a sit down dinner for all the guests.
                  It included seven full days of food, music, dance and celebration – (Jn. 14:10-12).
                  After the festivities the husband was free to bring his bride to their new home to live together as husband and wife in the full covenant of marriage.”

                  The huppa is a tent/canopy. I have been to a Jewish wedding in Israel. They had a huppa. They said a blessing over a cup of wine. They had vows and promises.

                  But did they do this 2,000 years ago. Consider:

                  http://www.bible.ca/marriage/ancient-jewish-three-stage-weddings-and-marriage-customs-ceremony-in-the-bible.htm

                  “Ancient Jewish weddings never involved a wedding ceremony like we see today with the bride walking down the aisle to be married in the synagogue.

                  The “wedding ceremony” is something that did not develop for hundreds of years after Jesus rose from the dead.

                  Modern Jewish weddings are as removed and different from the ancient Jewish marriage culture of the first century as Christian weddings are.

                  ….
                  If you want to understand the many metaphors, illustrations and figures of speech used by Jesus about “the wedding feast” and the church as the “bride of Christ”, you must learn the ancient culture and forget everything you know about modern marriage ceremonies.

                  ….

                  There was no “wedding ceremony” in the synagogue in the first century, performed under a canopy where the bride and groom would hold hands and say, “I do” before an audience of friends and family. This didn’t develop for hundreds of years after Jesus died on the cross as the Passover lamb for the sins of mankind.”

                  He is quite plain, there was no ceremony in the synagogue under a canopy. There was no vows.
                  ==================================================================
                  Or consider another long article:

                  http://ldolphin.org/risk/ult.shtml

                  When the father of the groom deemed that the bridal chamber was ready, he would give his approval for the groom to claim his bride. The arrival of the groom at the bride’s house signaled his intention of “taking her to wife.” The formal process of consummating the marriage in the “taking” of the bride was referred to as nissuin, which literally means “taking”. (32)

                  Typically, this “abduction” would occur in the middle of the night.
                  “The big moment had arrived and the bridegroom was more then ready, we can be sure. He and his young men would set out in the night, making every attempt to completely surprise the bride.

                  And that’s the romantic part—all Jewish brides were `stolen’. The Jews had a special understanding of a woman’s heart. What a thrill for her, to be `abducted’ and carried off into the night, not by a stranger but by one who loved her so much that he had paid a high price for her.” (33)

                  Thus, the groom and his attendants would make their way by torch light through the dark streets of the town to the house of the bride. Although abduction was considered romantic, completely surprising the bride by bursting into her house in the middle of the night was not, so upon arrival at the house of the bride, the groom’s party would announce their arrival with a shout—“Behold, the bridegroom cometh!”—and, possibly, the blowing of the shofar, the traditional “trumpet” made from a ram’s horn. (34)

                  Matthew 25:5,6—Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. But at midnight there was a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.”

                  Having claimed the bride, the party would return to the bridal chamber where the nuptials themselves would begin.

                  According to him the groom came to get his bride and took her back to have sex. He said it was late at night. Mt. 25:6 agrees it would be at midnight. There are no synagogue services at midnight. After he gets his bride he rushes back with his bride in order to have sex.

                • Sebastian, thanks so much! I learned a lot and I appreciate your posts in particular. Keep up the great work and God bless you!

        • Actually, according to several of the New Testament letters, the Christian Church IS, in fact, a part of that Abrahamic covenant.

          Just wanted to point that out. God bless.

          • What I was saying is that Christians are not part of the Moses covenants in the desert.
            I do believe that Christians are the spiritual posterity and Jews the physical posterity.

            It is also clear in Paul’s letter that we have been grafted to the tree. That is done spiritually. We do not become physically Jewish.

            He also states that branches were taken of for their unbelief. He can only refers to the Jewish nation as a whole and to not be arrogant towards them. Jews are put back on the tree because of their belief of the Messiah not because of their nationality. But God had a covenant with the nation and will come back for the nation and the end of the tribulation unfortunately.

            This is my point of view on the technicalities of it. I just disagree with those saying that Christians, The Church, is the new Israel and that we obtain the promises made to the Jewish nation.

            • Gotcha- Sorry for the confusion.

              I actually agree with you wholeheartedly on that final thought especially.

              God bless, Sebastien.

        • “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

          6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.” Proverbs 3:5-6 it is not about what you want to believe, your wants does not change the Word of God.

          • Yep you’re right should read it too! There are a lot more verses that can be quoted like that! You can even find some in the koran (small case on purpose). That surely doesn’t make you the sole owner of the truth. Otherwise I can say that you’re wrong and add a similar verse and boom just like that you’ve been discredited for ever and you’re know as a liar.

            Come on people stop accusing others of lying without proof and quoting verses like that. That is very hurtful. What are you saying to non-believers if you can say that to Christians.

            Paul is waiting for the rapture in what 51 A.D ? well, I will too! You can’t wait for, or expect an imminent, rapture if it’s at the end of the tribulations, you’re probably won’t make it unless you hide for 7 yep 7 years. You also can’t expect it unless you’re in the 7 years of the tribulations. The first events that might have been misinterpreted (very doubtful) is the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Still 20 years away and couldn’t have known he would make it. etc etc etc

    • For the last six years I have been beating my head against a wall of blind indifference declaring that Kenyan-born gay Moslem commie Obama IS The Antichrist. Nobody wants to hear it so undoubtedly the Rapture will occur before most people recognize just how late the hour is. How much longer after this usurper gets miraculously healed of his fatal-blow will people realize this Jesuit pope is the Antichrist’s False Prophet?

        • For starters in Luke 10:18 God’s only begotten son Jesus said completely out of the blue”I saw Satan fall like lightning from on high.” Not real mind-blowing until you look into Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon and see that words #1299-1302 are all variations of the word ‘barack’ and they all mean lightning. Lightning warns of a coming storm. Oddly that same word means lightning in Arabic, Aramaic, Greek and even Korean. The word ‘bamah’ also found in Strong’s means: the heights or heavenly place of idol-worship. Obama meets ALL of the criteria of the man-of-lawlessness up until the fatal-blow. He IS gay. Every aspect of his existence is surrounded by evil and foreboding.
          His mother was a porn-model for the man who was most likely BHO’s real father registered commie& pedophile Frank Marshall Davis. The forged Hawaiian Birth Certificate, the stolen Connecticut Social Security number, Larry Sinclair, Bill Ayers, and the man Obama is a 32d deg Prince Hall mason. I could go on for at least an hour about this usurper but in summation: Obama is the Antichrist and Pope Francis is his False Prophet.

          • I don’t normally find myself doing this, but all I can do is shake my head and marvel at what you’ve said. I’ll return later to address it, but I wanted you to know I’d seen your comment and intend to respond.

          • Well, it seems that my real life got a great deal busier than I expected. My apologies, Sgt. Prepper. I’ll give you a basic outline of what I’ll address.

            First, the breakdown of his name, and where there is a gap in the actual scholarship of that proof. It is such a massive error, in fact, that it renders the “evidence” as it stands worthless.

            Second, I’ll address what Obama does and does not actually meet regarding the final Antichrist.

            Third, I’ll address the rumors of Obama being homosexual; having married a transsexual; and his father.

            Fourthly, I’ll address his mother and her background.

            Fifthly, I’ll delve into the birth certificate and the SS#.

            Next, I’ll get into his associations with Ayers and Sinclair.

            Finally, I’ll address Pope Francis and his affiliation (or lack thereof) with Obama.

            Bear in mind, that this should not be seen as a defense of Obama as a president or as a man. I have met him in person, and while he is genuinely easy to get along with and though he has a great sense of humor, he is not a leader; he is not a Christian (nor a Muslim); and he is most certainly not a good man in any sense of the biblical meaning of that word.

            However, I do believe it necessary for the sake of our faith to be accurate in everything that we put forward as fact; and where there can be found no fact, that we should be very clear in labeling them opinions.

            I am also not belittling you as a person in any way, shape or form- And I want to make sure you understand that as well.

            Lastly, I am coming to this discussion as a man who began researching Obama when he was first elected to the Illinois senate. In other words, the sheer documentation I have on the man rivals much of what people today can find.

            God bless you, my friend, and I look forward to our discussion on this topic!

      • Bore da/Good morning and Hi
        Hi Sgt. Prepper
        Wow! We did get up this morning in a very bigoted mood, you don’t seem to like many people! In addition, I was not aware that there was a possibility of having two antichrists on the earth at the same time, that must be a first, and there is me thinking I knew my Bible. However, on the rapture this is what a Christian organization says on that, and I reiterate that these are not my words, although they carry my sentiment: Over the past 2000 years, countless groups and individuals have compared events of their time to Bible prophecies and come to the conclusion that Jesus would be returning soon. Some have set a specific date and led their followers into the wilderness to wait for Christ to come. Every one of those predictions turned out to be wrong, but that has not deterred people from making modern-day predictions that Jesus will be returning in the near future. Most mainstream Bible scholars, however, do not think current world affairs are evidence of the imminent return of Christ.[http://www.christianbiblereference.org/faq_rapture.htm]
        If I use the metaphor of ‘moving the goal posts’, this is exactly what conservative Christians have been doing for the last 2,000 year, on any or all biblical prophecies. As the above Christian quote states: ‘every one of those predictions turned out to be wrong!’

        Cofion (Regards)

        Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

        • The tetrads, the Jewish feasts and the Shemita year combine with what is going on in our geopolitical world and weather patterns all matchup to Bible prophecy concerning the last days.
          If these are the last days Kenyan-born gay Moslem commie left-handed Obama must be the Antichrist. And petrus Romanus(Peter the Roman) must be the last pope and False Prophet.
          Please show me a single verse in the Bible that proves me wrong. The closest I have been able to find is when one of the many people who have stated BHO is Antichrist said “Jesus is Lord” Obama agreed with him however even the demons know and tremble.

          • Prynhawn da/Good afternoon and Hi
            Hi Sgt. Prepper
            Hebrew bâraq = lightning, that I acknowledge, however, I cannot see your prophecy of the person you maline as one of the two antichrists as mentioned. If you had of taken the time with going through Strong’s Hebrew dictionary, you would have found a Hebrew word or words closer to the spelling of Barack (Strong’s No 1288 – 1293 and on) bârak = meaning bless, kneel before God in an act adoration, etc. Which is opposite to your theorisation of the ‘Satan falling like lightning from on high.’ If you look for evidence for your theories, you will alway find words that are spelt the same or are similar, however, that is not proof of a prophecy. For example: the English language has several words and terms that are spelt (except for some glyphs) such as sir, dim, dull, duo, son, which are spelt the same as in my ancient language, the oldest in Europe, but have different meanings. Sir means shire/county, dim means free, dull means form/manner, duo means black/blacken, and sôn1 means talk/mention, sôn2 means to make a noise. The name Barack in its native home of Kenya means ‘blessed,’and Obama means ‘to learn or bend,’and his middle name Hussein is Arabic for ‘good.’ As you can see there is no evil or demonic in his name, only the evil what some people like to see in a name!
            As for your 2nd antichrist Pope Francis or as you term petrus Romanus, the last pope, which I take is another prophecy, however, I will cide that Catholicism has no authority on the claim that Peter was ever in Rome, and there is no evidence of him being the first bishop of Rome (pope). As the scholarship acknowledges that there was no monarchical episcopate (one man bishopric) until the mid 2nd century, and that Linus was the first bishop of Rome in the earliest manuscripts. Peter as the bishop of Rome did not appear or exist before the late 2nd or early 3rd century.[J.N.D.Kelly, 1986, p. 6, The Oxford Dictionary of Popes. Oxford/New York, Oxford University Press]
            On the false prophet there is but on, Paul or Saul of Tarsus.
            Cofion (Regards)

            Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

            • As I said I could go on for an hour about this usurper Bathhouse Barry Soetoro(BHO). Believe me I have already read 90% of the info you sent and yes I do believe every evil thing I’ve ever heard about this man-of-lawlessness. The name “Hussein” means ‘handsome one’ just like Lucifer was. Just knowing Obama could not possibly be a ‘natural-born’ citizen should have been the biggest red-flag ever however I have found we once had another president who was not ‘natural-born’ Chester Arthur. He too was technically born a Brit in Canada as his Irish father WAS a Brit at the time, just like Soetoro-Obama’s. On page 26 of his alleged autobiography “Dreams from My Father” first & second printings, Obama mentions having his ‘birth certificate” which I assure you was from Kenya and looked exactly like the one Lucas D. Smith smuggled out of Mombassa before BHO was illegally inaugerated on Jan. 20th 2008.
              BHO’s law office zip-code was 60606 his Rezko home zip was 60615.
              The winning Pick-3 Illinois lotto number the day after the 2008 selection was 666 and the Pick-4 was 7779 meaning God’s perfect will and judgement.
              http://www.BirtherReport.com
              http://www.ObamasRealFather.com
              PLEASE look at what this evil-cabal of global-elite are orchestrating!
              http://www.beforeitsnews.com
              http://www.911truth.org
              http://www.NewswatchMagazine.org
              http://www.RaptureReady.com
              Why do you really think the mainstream media ridicules Trump, Alan Keyes, Dr. Orly Taitz, Pat Boone and Sheriff Joe Arpaio. Those people know the truth about the Kenyan-birth, homosexuality, drug-usage, etc.

              • Prynhawn da/Good afternoon and Hi
                Hi Sgt. Prepper
                Thanks for the links, but no thanks, I am too old and too tired to follow Christian myths that try to authenticate biblical prophecies, etc. Anyone with an access to a library or computer linked to the W.W.W can source all the materials they want to make a prophecy seem true. However, the prophecy of the antichrist has been foretold for millennia, in fact from the early 2nd century, were clerics, scholars, and mathematicians looked at the so-called antichrist prophecy from the book of Revelation. They came up with a names or marks, and a numerical number 666 that fits all the relevant numerical systems of the day, which were Hebrew, Greek, and Roman, and all gave an answer that fitted an organised religion. However, like all biblical prophecies that came and went, and those that have been foretold such as the antichrist, and the rapture are called preterism, which is a Christian eschatological view of prophecies that have ended.
                The number 666 you should be well versed in, but the name or mark of the antichrist you will have to search for yourself, like I did on an assignment as a history student in the mid 1950’s. However, you will have to discover the truth of the myth through the three numerical system as aforesaid, Greek, Roman, and Hebrew, and even Arabic if you are after all the myths. That said there are several numerical clues to the number 666 name or mark of the antichrist, but all are linked as I have said to a religious organisation.
                One clue is the Greek word APOSTATES, which will give you the 666, as will the Latin name and numerical number for ‘the representative of the son of god!’
                Cofion (Regards)
                Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

          • Where exactly does “bigoted” fit in. I don’t believe I had made mention of BHO being ALMOST half-black as a paternal great-grandmother was an Arab-Beduoin which is Caucasoid.
            Very typical name-calling device like “crazy”, tinfoil-hat, racist, trailer-trash, moron, sore-loser, tea-bagger, etc. I proudly admit to being a homophobe and an Islamophobe as that is just my self-defense mechanism kicking in. AIDS and getting my head cut-off are two things I really don’t care to have to deal with. I hope and pray to be Raptured before Obama’s round-up of the evangelicals, NRA members, veterans and teabaggers into the FEMA camps with guillotines.
            He will use Ebola as the excuse combined with riots, etc. Anything to not be impeached and removed from office to face a firing-squad.

    • I think that no one will be able to have any kind of powers to fool humans into believing they are GOD (the antichrist) until JESUS comes back for The Rapture, therefore releasing the world from living under The Grace period.

  2. So, in other words… Quit calling people “Antichrist” simply because you disagree with their stance, politics, etc.

    Many people can be affected by the spirit of antichrist. However, the accusation of being the Antichrist is a serious one which even Hitler, Pol Pot, and Chairman Mao (among other despicable pieces of trash) do not deserve.

    Something to think about, BaE. Well done.

    • Thanks RETS. We are going to be going chapter by chapter through Revelation from Ch. 7 on (the 144,000 are up next) so I will preview the Antichrist/Rev 13 article and tell you now that we will be not naming any famous person today as the man of sin. God bless.

      • Agreed there, before you even release the article. As I recall, the Antichrist is without known origin, though he will cause the Jews to believe he is of the line of David.

        Looking forward to it, BaE.

        • No offense, this is in the spirit of debate and trying to save lost souls. How can you say that the anti christ is without known origin? I think you have much study to do. The “anti” is lucifer himself…an arch angel gone bad…got himself demoted and kicked out of heaven….THE arch angel…the Cherubim that was supposed to cover the mercy seat until Jesus seats himself on it…the Bible clearly states this. he seduced Eve in the Garden of Eden, fathered the twin of Abel, Cain, the father of all sins, the first murderer, not included in the genealogy of Adam because he was not of the “seed” of Adam but rather the seed of Satan and also father of the Kenites. God put a mark on Cain so that he would not be murdered when sent away…hence the first mention of the “mark of the beast”. The anti is indeed of known origin. He was “made” by God, not born.

          • In other words, your contention is that Satan will manifest himself physically? Do I understand you correctly?

          • I believe that he will so that he can enter the world arena of leaders without giving up his identity until the one head of the political beast is mortally wounded, at which time he will “fix” it and then be proclaimed world leader for his vast knowledge.Then he will be worshiped and will start to show “signs and wonders” and will then proclaim himself to be Jesus. Yes.

          • And, may I ask, what is your proof? The term “Antichrist” is only used in reference to this man that was mortally wounded.

            I believe you’ve also said that the “abomination and desolation” already occurred. Answer this for me, then… Where is the reigning Christ?

            • A man that was wounded? The wound comes to a political system…that the “anti” heals…that’s what gives him his first great status…puts him in place as a world leader…of THE “one world system”. Yes they have “occured”…it’s history….everybody else in the world knows this. It will happen again too…the “anti” will make a “peace” agreement with Israel and allow to rebuild the temple…he will be a beautiful man and wise beyond even Daniel…and I believe he will rise out of the Islamic realm…(study their religion…their “messiah” is a precise description of our “anti-christ” and they expect him to return any day now too, just so you know)…shortly afterward he will enter it and falsely claim to be Jesus and perform miracles that will amaze many and draw them to him…We are in the gap between Daniels 69th and 70th week…that week will start again with the start of tribulation…soon if not currently….from there you know when Christ will reign…study…study…study. We all go through the ‘tribulaton” of the antichrist claiming to be Christ fellas. Because God wants us all to believe…we still have a job to do saving souls…that’s why we will be here. Gods wrath on the other hand we will not be here for…but that’s not the “tribulation”…that’s Gods wrath…after Jesus returns…trib is before He returns

              • Tribulation is satans wrath not God’s. God’s wrath is for the unbelievers, those whom have taken the mark. We will be here during the Tribulation, most of us will be killed for our Faith, but some will be alive..THEN the coming of Jesus(at the end of Trib) will be taken up with the dead. Why do so many people think that they will escape being persecuted, while other Christians are being killed and tortured all around the world. Because It’s a warm n feel good feeling. a joel osteen feeling…sheesh. Darby did invent the rapture theory.seems like the pre-tribbers only refer to Thessolonians , what about the rest of the Bible? The rapture “whisking away” theory is satans way of deceiving ..the falling away. I agree with David Paul!

                • Hi Sheila,

                  Thank you for your comments. However, I am very confused and dismayed by the sentiments you express. First and foremost, theology debate aside, what is the reason for the tone you post with? I have been involved in MANY debates online (in many Christian forums) about the Rapture, and I completely fail to grasp the extreme adversarial tone of so many of the discussions. Rapture theology is not a fundamental doctrine of the faith. In other words, I do not think that anyone who believes the post-trib rapture model is a heretic, false prophet etc. End time prophecy is an area we are working our way through, trying our best to understand Scripture. So I do not know why you feel a need to have a very haughty and angry tone towards those who hold to a different Rapture model than you do?

                  May I remind:

                  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
                  25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. – Galatians 5:22-25.

                  Where are your fruits in this discussion? What does it profit to be right in your interpretation if your tune is one of high-mindedness and condescension? I hope and pray that if we must disagree and debate we do it in a spirit of Christ’s love.

                  Now on to the specific theology: comparing the position I take on the Rapture to Joel Osteen’s heretical doctrine is a very serious charge. And as such, I am going to hold you to your assertions. Thus far you have not offered anything Biblically to support you view on the Rapture. Nor have you shown in any way, how the articles on this site are incorrect – by actually using Scripture. If I am in error, simply point out the correc Biblical interpretation.

                  You are making a number of claims with no exegesis to back them up. The one verse you cite is Revelation 13:7, of which you write: “The beast will conquer God’s people and rule over them, but he cannot harm them spiritually.” Yet Scripture contradicts your interpretation. Revelation 13 is clear that those who do not worship the Antichrist are killed. Christians are not left to be ruled. They are exterminated. This is also supported by Daniel 8’s passage on the Antichrist:

                  “And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.”

                  So again I ask, if you are going to make such strong accusations and claims, please provide your Biblical support for your rapture model and rightly divide Scripture for us. Otherwise, you are engaging in rather irresponsible behavior. I look forward continuing the discussion. God bless.

                  • B&E, I’ve been wondering the same thing regarding the nastiness of many post-tribbers towards other perspectives. It’s such a minor thing in the grand scheme of things to expend such passion and obsession with “being right.” Go figure. Who knew people would become completely unhinged by suggesting we’ll be spared the horrors of such unspeakable suffering???

                  • I put myself in their shoes. I read, watch or listen to stuff about the mid-post tribulation rapture. Then I look up websites that talks about the pre-tribulation rapture and unload unfounded stories and conclusions in an arrogant and borderline insulting manner on other Christians for their desire to share what Paul is clearly waiting for.

                    On another site about the rapture, somebody was marketing his book on the post-trip rapture and literally claimed that the pre-trib believers were morons and stupid. He gave me a magic reference verse that turned out to be totally unfounded and obviously taken out of context. Then told me to look at the first fruit law an to get ready for the heavy artillery. Turns out the Law of First fruit convinced me even more of the pre-tribulation rapture.

                    See,… even before this reply someone answer by saying that:

                    “Who knew people would become completely unhinged by suggesting we’ll be spared the horrors of such unspeakable suffering???”

                    Again no proof just trash talking. On the other hand, for each Christians that has suffered and died a martyr, at least a 100 died peacefully of old age. That doesn’t even count the ones who died from any sickness for that matter. The focus on the unfairness of escaping the tribulation is unfounded and not biblical but very emotional. I know, I went through the same things a year ago.

                    Read JOB, yes really, read JOB!

                    And of being Satan’s wrath is only true in the fact that we was given permission, power and authority by God to do so. He will overcome the saints and kill them.

                    Rev 6:16 talks about the Lamb’s wrath. Oups let’s ignore that right?

                    Then someone put “the nail on it”, referring to Rev 6:17 by answering the “…who shall stand” as: The saint. Well, I could have said whoever I wanted doesn’t mean it’s right. But in the context it’s clear that it means nobody as in a rhetorical question. Again the use of emotion dictate their analysis. There won’t be any rapture and we’ll just watch with a bag of popcorn?

                    • Rev. 14 talks about the 144,000 that were sealed and was offered as FIRSTFRUITS to God and the Lamb. So there will only be 144,000 raptured?
                      In Rev. 7 it mentioned also of the 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. So are they Christian Jews also Raptured?
                      How many Rapture will take place before the Second Advent?
                      What comprises the First Resurrection? if the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the Rapture of those who are still alive is not the First resurrection, what then?

                      YBIC
                      Eaglet

                    • Hi Eaglet,

                      Thanks for your questions. The context of Rev 14 is in Heaven (which is where Mt. SION is located):

                      But ye are come unto mount SION, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, – Hebrews 12:22-23.

                      The 144,000 are firstfruits unto The Lord in that they are the first martyrs of the believing Jewish remnant. They are not raptured. They are killed. The entire context of Revelation 14 is death – people being killed during the Great Tribulation.

                      In Revelation 7 – these are Messianic Jews, obviously. They are going to preach the Gospel. They are sealed in their foreheads by angelic beings. So whether by supernatural witness or hearing the Gospel from a person, these 144,000 Jewish men will be witnesses of the Gospel during the Great Tribulation.

                      There is one Rapture before the Second Advent – and that is at the opening of the 6th Seal. The multitude of Revelation 7 is the Raptured church.

                      The First Resurrection is comprised of the first people resurrected in Christ’s Kingdom. Many people are resurrected throughout the Bible. Ilijah and Elisha both resurrected young men in 1 Kings 17 and 2 Kings 4 respectively. We know The Lord raised Lazarus from the dead. We know The Lord Himself resurrected from the dead. So what is the meaning of the “First” in the “First Resurrection”? Clearly, it is not the first in the Bible. So we have to look to the context:

                      And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
                      2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
                      3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. – Revelation 20:1-5.

                      This Resurrection has a very specific timing – it is after Satan has been locked in the abyss for 1,000 years. It is officially the time of the Milennial Kingdom. Christ is now ruling the Earth from the throne of David. Additionally, the Resurrection is a VERY specific group: only Christians who refused the Mark of the Beast during the Great Tribulation. This group is NOT all Christians of all time. It is only those who were alive during the Great Tribulation and were martyred. There is no other way to read this passage without adding to Scripture.

                      So this is definitely not the Rapture. Instead it is the First Resurrection in the millennial Kingdom. It is the true “New Age.” When The Lord speaks of the end of the world or the end of the age, it is a reference to the current era we are living in. This era ends upon His return to Earth. I hope that clears it up and I welcome your thoughts on the Scripture you use to support your interpretations. God bless. – B&E

                      5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

                    • You ask, “How many Rapture will take place before the Second Advent?”

                      The great evangelist Ironsides thought there were 2 or 3 raptures in the Tribulation. In his book “Lectures on the Revelation” he says, p. 195, concerning the 2 witnesses: “It is another rapture – another cohort of the first resurrection – taking place in the midst of the final week.”

                      Pre-tribbers routinely state that the first resurrection happens in 2 stages. Stage 1 is a resurrection at the beginning of the Tribulation. Ironsides thinks this is a third stage – the two witnesses. He said he was not sure but he thought the death of the 2 witnesses happened in the middle of the week

                      On p. 271 he says about Rev 15:2-3 “They are those … who have been raised from the dead, and raptured during the tribulation. They are, perhaps, identical with the two witnesses of Chapter 11 though I do not press this.”

                      If Rev 15:2-3 is not Rev 11 then this is yet another rapture. He accepts the possibility of 3 raptures in Revelation! The first one is not mentioned but he know it exists pre-trib.

                      Why did he say Rev 15:2-3 was a rapture. He did not explain. Let me try to read between the lines. The people in verse 2 hold harps which means they have bodies. This means they have been resurrected. They are in heaven so they have been resurrected and caught up to heaven. That means they have been raptured.

                      I do not buy it. This shows how wrong you can get if you accept pre-tribulationism.

                    • Hello Eaglet . The 144,000 are chosen by God because of their purity , faith and conviction to him , but they are chosen for these reasons to stay behind during the rapture . They will preach the Gospel of Christ Jesus to those whom are left behind and comfort them with the knowledge that a better place waits for them if they keep their faith in him . It is my understanding that the Anti-Christ will reveal himself before the rapture actually happens but regaurdless if he is revealed before or during , the important thing to know is that this will all happen . Personally , I wouldn’t want to be here during the rapture to find out how bad it is ! No true Christian will be left behind and ALL ( save the demonds of the Anti-Christ ) who are left behind will have the opportunity to be save through Jesus . People have a tendancy to over complicate all of this when in reality salvation is not a complicated matter . If your leg is broken what matters more ; the way it twisted when it broke , where you were when it broke , the way you fell or were hit when it broke , or simply that you need it mended ? 🙂

                    • B&E

                      Lazarus and the girl that Jesus’ miraculously raised after FOUR days died again at their appointed time. (Going against the Resurrection of the dead on the Third Day belief of the Saducees.)

                      Philip after he shared the Gospel to the Eunuch was taken out in spirit and found himself in another place. it could be the same for Elijah for scripture did not mention that He was taken to Heaven.

                      Scriptures says the bodies of the Holy people who was raised to life at the moment Jesus died on the cross, they went to the city and appeared to many people, no mentioned of their ascension to Heaven after some
                      time or whether they ascended together with Jesus.

                      So I think Christ is the only one first to get to Heaven. He was the Firstfruit among the dead. The 144,000 who are offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb, the Great Tribulation Saints, The Dead in Christ, The Raptured Alive in Christ, The Apostles and Prophets and All Believers who have fallen ASLEEP (its easy to wake up those who are asleep than those who are dead, this is Jesus’ point on Peter’s Stubborness and unbelief) belongs to the First Resurrection.

                      The Spirit that Stephen gave up to God is the breath of life. Even what Jesus gave up also was the breathe of life that belongs to God, but only Jesus ascended to Heaven.

                      All the believers are under the altar and are not yet in Heaven Rev. 5 ( Heaven is His Throne and the Earth is His footstool/altar). The unbelievers are in the grave/hades were Jesus made a visit (ministering?) after His death on the cross.

                      The saints on the golden altar BEFORE the throne (Altar is near the Throne/Heaven) Rev. 8 is in the millennium timeline. They do not belong to the Second resurrection and the second death has no power on them.

                      The people who belong to the Second Resurrection are the ff:
                      1. Dead from the sea all throughout the 7,000 years
                      2. Dead from the Grave/Hades all throughout the 7,000 years
                      3. The rest of the Dead that did not come to life after the First Resurrection
                      4. The Sheep and The Goats
                      5. The nations that was established through the remnants of Israel and other survivors of the Armageddon war (Tribulation was cut short so that there would be remnants to repopulate the millennium)

                    • Hi Eaglet,

                      Thanks for your response, my point was simply that the resurrection in Revelation 20 was clearly not the “first” sequentially in the Scriptures. You, by your response, seem to be in agreement on this point. So we must discern what “First” means in this context. And in context it is the First Resurrection of the Millennial Kingdom. That is what the First means. It is not the Rapture. The saints who are resurrected here are ON EARTH. They are not in the clouds, where the Raptured church is found. And these saints of Revelation 20 remain on Earth. They do not meet Jesus in the clouds because The Lord is now on His earthly throne on the seat of David in Jerusalem. So by no real Biblical measure does this passage match the description of the Rapture as given in 1 Thessalonians 4 (which is by far the clearest text on the Rapture in the Bible):

                      16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. – 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

                      They are just not the same event at all. God bless. -B&E

                    • 2 Kings 2 King James Version (KJV)

                      2 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

                      2 And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.

                      3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.

                      4 And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.

                      5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.

                      6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the Lord hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.

                      7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.

                      8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.

                      9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.

                      10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.

                      11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

                    • I have noticed both camps- pre trib and post trib have been edgy, arrogant, and defensive lately. I guess some people think this kind of tone supports their position better. It doesn’t impress me one bit. Personally, I couldn’t care less what people think regarding the rapture. I’m not going to lose sleep over a brother in the Lord who is fanatical about either a pre trib or a post trib rapture. As long as they respect my right to disagree, it’s cool with me.

                • yes, Please LETS LOOK AT I Thes 4 And II Thes,2 and I Cor 15 both books clearly let us know there is NO RAPTURE. all soundly confirm there is not a catching away without a Resurrection. the resurrected Dead are listed in Rev 20:4 we find the first group of these souls listed in Rev 6:9-11. the churches can not be caught up until the dead in Christ are first Resurrected, and…. they cant be resurrected until they have died, and they do not begin to die until Rev 6. ALSO 2 Thes 2 whom the lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and destroy with the brightness of his coming….. how can he destroy the man of sin with the brightness of his coming if the man of sin ISNT HERE! 1 cor 15 AT THE LAST TRUMP….. if there is a LAST TRUMP… there has to be a FIRST TRUMP, and if there is a last Trump and a First TRump… then the question is how many are there There and where are they found….. there are 7 and all of them are in REV. i could go on but IM weary with the carnal church wake up and read the word.

              • God does not need us here to “save souls.” That privilege is God’s and God’s alone, an act of love accomplished sometime around the year 28 AD. Salvation is gift-wrapped and on the table for anyone who cares to accept it.

                We are mere ambassadors for Christ, nothing more. The only reason we’re still here for any capacity is because it suits His purpose. He is God.

                  • Hello Barbara . God works through us to spread his word , and in that respect we are needed here to save souls . This is the reason for God leaving his 144,000 behind after the rapture , to gather those who will still listen to the word .

                    • Bore da/Good morning and Hi
                      Hi Karen L. Miller
                      Just been going some sums on the tribulation.
                      144,000 souls left behind after the rapture (the word rapture is not mentioned in the bible) you comment. However, on the number of survivors, the Bible says it is the children from the 12 tribes of Israel.[Revelations 7:1-10 KJV] So this is only going to affect the Jewish communities, so why are conservative Christians so adamant that this prophecy is coming, which will affect the world. If, however, we are to belief the prophecy according to you and other fundamentalist, we can calculate the survivors from each land, as there are 196 countries in the world.
                      So 144,000 ÷ 196 = 734.7 souls will be saved per country worldwide, if or when this tribulation ever comes to pass. If you base this on the USA, which has according to the Hartford Institute, who estimate that there are roughly 350,000 religious congregations in the whole of USA. Then it would work out that 0.002 persons per church/congregation would survive, however, this would mean that 500 churches/congregations would have to amalgamate to have one single person survive. Wouldn’t it be better to forget about this rapture, and get on with your lives, I say with not in malice, but you have been waiting for this event to happen for nearly two millennia. The false prophet Paul, said: … For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died….[1 Thessalonians 4:15] A verse which conservative Christians take to mean the rapture, etc., was coming in his time, and you are still waiting 2,000 years later.
                      I am no spring chicken, and in my time alone there have been more than 50 prophecies on this subject up to 2013, and I think the last main prediction I remember well, was in 1988 by Edgar C. Whisenant. He made money out of his prediction, by writing a book, and when that prediction failed, he revised his prediction and wrote another book, and then carried on predicting to the late 1990’s. I would hazard a guess that from the purported time of Paul, there have been many thousands of prophecies been predicted on this one subject.

                      Cofion (regards)

                      Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

    • In 2 Thess 2:1 Paul said he wanted to talk about the Lord’s coming AND the Rapture. The way he tells it Paul did discuss the Lord’s coming but he forgot to talk about the Rapture. Do you believe that? I don’t.

      He said:

      “Some have argued that the Day of Christ and the Day of The Lord are the same event. However, Paul dispels that notion in the following verse:”

      Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain. – Philippians 2:16.

      How does this dispel anything? The Day of the Lord is not mentioned.

      Does it make sense to you that Day of the Lord and Day of Christ are different things. They sound so very similar. I think they are the same. In 2 Tim 4:8 Paul mentions “that day.” Would he be so unclear if he thought Day of the Lord is different from Day of Christ? Also in Ro. 2:16 he mentions “the day.”

      He feels that the Day of the Lord is the wrath of the Tribulation. Tim LaHaye coauthored a book called The Popular Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy. There is an article on the Day of the Lord. Don’t quote me, but my recollection is the author said every reference to Day of the Lord was the Second Advent.

      Be careful about making too much of this though. Consider:

      2 Peter 3:10
      But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

      This is surely after the Millenium; the new heavens and the new earth of Rev 21:1. Perhaps Day of the Lord meant different things to Peter and Paul.

      He said:

      ” there will be a gathering of all believers, supernaturally, to meet Jesus in the air and be taken to Heaven as described in Chapter 4.”

      1 Thess. 4 says nothing about going to heaven. He made that up.

      He said:

      “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.” – 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11.

      “The “wrath” referred to in verse 9 is not just a reference to the wrath in the lake of fire. It is an assurance that Christians will not experience the wrath of God during the Day of The Lord, ”

      I do not believe that. I think he is spiritualizing the passage. Wrath is contrasted with “to obtain salvation.” Thus it is clear that wrath is eternal wrath. There is no reason to give it a secondary meaning. What is spiritualizing? It happens when someone is unhappy with the simple literal interpretation. They thus go looking for a secondary interpretation that works better with their theology and promote it as the “real” meaning. There is no reason to look for a secondary meaning.

        • How can you deny the rapture. 1 Thess 4:16 is quite clear. I believe in post-tribulationism. You want to hear something interesting. I have health problems which interfere, but I hope to write a book on the rapture called The Rapture Answer and Its Jewish Background. Why read it? New, never before published information about the rapture. In particular.

          1) It is guaranteed that there is a reference to resurrection in Mt. 24:31.

          2) It is extremely easy to find “shout of command” (1 Thess. 4:16) in Mt 24:31. In fact one major translation once used by millions does exactly that. Although it is now out of fashion.

          3) There is a logical issue in Mt. 24:31. I think the answer is obvious. If you accept that answer, then it is a logical necessity. You are FORCED to conclude that when the angels gather the elect in Mt 24:31, they are in fact gathered gathered in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air..

          Mt. 24:31 is the rapture and it is “immediately after the tribulation of those days” Mt 24:29. Post-tirbulationism.

          • If it is post Tribulation rapture then not many will be raptured. In fact most will be killed in the tribulation or martyred. So what is the point of it all. Most of the global population will be gone. Why are they being raptured at all. Why not just have Satan behead all the believing saints and have Jesus just come down to defeat him.

            The point of tribulation is for the Jews to come back to God and acknowledge Jesus. Its also to publish all the unbelievers.

            • I am a post-tribulationist. I agree that most believers will be martyred. At least 80%. Perhaps 90%. So what? You ask what is the point? The point is rapture includes resurrection.

            • ALL…whose names are written in the book of life…will be “gathered to him”…rapture is a word never written in the Bible…dead or alive…awake or asleep. What do you mean?

            • Hello David . The reason for the rapture is because while God wants to give man kind one more chance to repent and except Jesus as their Savior , he does not want to put his elect ( those whom have asked Jesus to be their Lord and Savior already ) to go through what is to come during the Anti-Christ’s rein . Many who are lost will regognise the rapture when it happens and will repent right away . Others will be lost forever . It isn’t about some game between God and the devil , it’s about giving man kind every oportunity to see the truth .

              • Bore da/Good morning and Hi
                Hi Karen L. Miller
                Reference your comment, you quoted: “… God wants to give man kind one more chance to repent and except Jesus as their Savior.” As I mentioned in my previous comment to you, that there has been thousands of prophecies on this topic since the days of Paul, and at least 50 of the prophecies have been foretold in my time. So, how many time is God going to delay the so-called rapture, as I have already stated that he has postponed it several thousand of times. Or are you merely stating a hypothesis!
                Cofion (regards)

                Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

                  • So when all Christians suddenly vanish off the face of the earth before the antichrist, most people especially fence sitters, will know what has happened. But as I read a little father I noticed it says in 2 Thessalonians: God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false. So, who are the one’s who get this delusion and who are those who will still have a opportunity to get saved ? Are the one’s who flat out rejected Christ before the rapture get the delusion and those who simply didn’t even know enough to reject Christ still have a chance to get saved ? Thank you

                    • Hi Mike,

                      Salvation is an individual issue. It is always that way all throughout Scripture. The Rapture will be but one sign and witness to point people to Christ in the end times. There will also be the 144,00, the 2 witnesses, angels who preach the Gospel and the supernatural judgments taking place. So the unsaved world who are left behind will have numerous ways to seek forgiveness for their sins. But it will come down to whether or not they believe and have faith in Christ. Some will be moved and many will still hold onto their own belief of “what is right” and not believe God’s numerous warnings. This latter group will be the ones who receive strong delusion (in the form of the Antichrist and the False Prophet). These two men will dazzle the world with their miracles, signs and wonders. And once the antichrist survives a mortal wound, the entire unsaved world will view him as a god. God bless. -B&E

          • James, you are of course correct. The passages of Jesus and Paul both point to a single event. Paul, in Thessalonians could have easily clarified that there are two events, but the context of the passage is pretty obvious, there is one event. It is this same event that to believers is salvation, and there is no reason to fear the day of the Lord for believers for this reason, wheras the very same event will be doom for unbelievers. Christ will accomplish both redemption, and punishment in one stroke. That is the clear and plain meaning of both Luke 21:25-28 and 1 Thess 5.

            Add to this the fact that all foreshadows of rapture in the Old Testament accounts demonstrate that God’s people always escape amid the very worst of what would otherwise be a hopeless situation.

            So B&E is right, God’s people will not endure wrath, but will escape it, it is not intended for them, but never the less, they will witness it and survive through it. This is the method God uses to test the faith of his people. There is nothing in 2 Thessalonians that would present a change in God’s way of dealing with his saints. It is only at the moment before utter destruction that God’s people are saved, and this is always after a period of trial.

            Noah entered the ark on the 7th day.
            Lot was harrassed by the Sodomites as well as within the region during its destruction
            The Israelites endured the first three plagues, and witnessed the final seven, then were released.
            Israel entered the red sea and were harassed by the Egyptians befor being saved.
            Rahab lived within Jericho during the 7 marches and the walls falling.
            etc…..

            • Hey Gabriel,

              We seem to have a lot to discuss today so I will just get right to it:

              See my other comment to you where I explain that the “Coming of our Lord” and “that Day of The Lord” are definitely not the same event. But I will address your other points:

              “So B&E is right, God’s people will not endure wrath, but will escape it, it is not intended for them, but never the less, they will witness it and survive through it.”

              The Antichrist is going to conquer and kill Christians during his reign:

              “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them” – Revelation 13:7.

              “And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.” – Daniel 8:23-24.

              We see nothing in Scripture about saints being tested by the Antichrist and surviving. Where is your Scripture to support this statement?

              “Noah entered the ark on the 7th day.
              Lot was harrassed by the Sodomites as well as within the region during its destruction
              The Israelites endured the first three plagues, and witnessed the final seven, then were released.
              Israel entered the red sea and were harassed by the Egyptians befor being saved.
              Rahab lived within Jericho during the 7 marches and the walls falling”

              Noah clearly survived the flood, which was the judgment of God on the sinful world. And he was not in the water, he was lifted above it. The ark was floating on top of the water and not even submerged.

              Lot was brought out of Sodom before fire and brimstone reigned on the city, which was the wrath of God. This is a clear foreshadow of God removing His saints before unleashing His wrath.

              Israel will be here during the Day of The Lord. They are not going to be raptured. And they will endure the betrayal by the Antichrist before seeking safe haven for the final 3 1/2 years of his reign (Revelation 12).

              Rahab, a Gentile believer (foreshadow of the Church), was indeed removed from Jehrico before Joshua (or Yeshua, which means Jesus, another foreshadow), entered the city to destroy it. The walls coming down was not what killed people. It was Joshua’s command for his armies to enter and attack that did.

              “But Joshua had said unto the two men that had spied out the country, Go into the harlot’s house, and bring out thence the woman, and all that she hath, as ye sware unto her. 23 And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel. 24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the Lord. 25 And Joshua saved Rahab the harlot alive, and her father’s household, and all that she had; and she dwelleth in Israel even unto this day; because she hid the messengers, which Joshua sent to spy out Jericho.” – Joshua 6.

              Notice before they burned the city down with fire (God’s wrath), Yeshua made sure the Gentile believers were removed from the city first. I also noticed in another article comment thread you said that Rahab remained in Jericho. She actually went to Israel and Joshua cursed the city after it was burnt to the ground. No one lived there for centuries after this event.

              • This is why the second half of the “tribulation” is reduced to 5 months by God…”for the sake of mine elect”, yes we would all be dead if we had to endure 3.5 years of it. Gee whiz…GO READ THE BIBLE!!! We are ALL here to endure the “tribulation”!!! for the entire length of it too!! B&E…how can you preach pre-trib? Look at what you just quoted out of the Bible…you proved yourself wrong! It was given unto him to make war with the saints and overcome them and destroy a mighty and holy people??? How can he be given this opportunity if we all have been “raptured” away? The false teaching is coming from right here….please open your eyes, ears and mind. God also said “teach not my children to fly…He knew that there would be people preaching pre-trib and this is exactly what He meant by it.

                • Hi David Paul,

                  Thanks for your comments. I would like to reply to some of your statements:


                  “how can you preach pre-trib? Look at what you just quoted out of the Bible…you proved yourself wrong! It was given unto him to make war with the saints and overcome them and destroy a mighty and holy people??? How can he be given this opportunity if we all have been “raptured” away? “

                  There will be newly saved, born again Christians during the Day of The Lord. This is the whole purpose of the 144,000 witnesses, the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11 and the various angelic beings that proclaim the gospel in the book of Revelation: to point people to Christ for the forgiveness of sins and salvation. So the fact that the Antichrist, at the mid-point, once he becomes the Beast, has saints around to kill, is no contradiction. Many will be saved and they will be martyred for their faith. This is the Christian life in the Great Tribulation.

                  As for the “tribulation” being reduced to 5 months, where is this stated in Scripture?

                  Thanks again for your post. I think these questions are good as we need to prove out everything we read when it comes to biblical interpretation. God bless.

              • Revelation 13:7…The beast will conquer God’s people and rule over them, but he cannot harm them spiritually. He will establish worldwide dominance and demand that everyone worship him. And many will worship him–everyone except TRUE BELIEVERS( these are the saints..the True believers, not Jews).

          • I don’t. Xino, however, seems to espouse a post-trib rapture theology, which RAC has done a very good job of refuting in my absence.

          • Hi James,

            Thanks for your comment and I am sorry about your health problems. I just want to offer something for consideration. I think we both agree that this passage is describing the Rapture:

            “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” – 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18.

            Now please correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems you are saying this passage is also a description of the Rapture:

            “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” – Matthew 24:31.

            I would submit these are two different events. Look at the descriptions. In the first passage we are specifically told Jesus HIMSELF shall descend and meet the church in the clouds. We will meet Jesus Christ “in the air.” The verse from Matthew says Jesus will send “his angels.” I know this point may seem very unusual, but I think we have to be very careful with looking at Scripture. These descriptions are not the same and thus they cannot be the same event. Again, I just offer this for consideration. God bless and I hope you recover to continue your writing.

          • B&E. It appeard to me my other post here in this thread was lost, although I tried to refresh it seemed that a cashed page was stuck or something. So I have posted here more than I intended to. Sorry for that.

            I will read your first and longer response and come back here if necessary.

            As to the foreshadowings. What then, to you, is significant about the 7 warnings and/or numberings that occur prior to each rapture foreshadow? Even in the case of Lot, Sodom is judged 7 times by proclamation from the Lord before he destroys it. What else could this point to other than a rapture that is the end of the 7 year tribulation? In the same way
            Revelation has 7 trumpets prior to the harvest of Rev 14, which include 3 woes, the final woe is the destruction of Babylon, and the final one is the only one which is after the rapture.

          • The rapture cannot happen until there is a falling away
            AND the anti reveals himself. It does happen. When? At Jesus’ Second Coming. There is no other way to interpret this. A pre trib rapture would make it the Second Coming and thus would make that the “Third Coming”. No way. Understand the Bible in it’s simplicity. God meant for all of us that want to understand to be able to do so…He knows that we are not all scholars, so He had it written in a simple format. Why try to make it so confusing to the sheep that He wants to save?

          • B&E…if you include Matthew 24:30 then you should be able to see that these are indeed the same event… At that time the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth shall mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on ;the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. You conveniently forgot to read/copy the prior verse that sets up verse 31 to defend your beliefs. Is this how you want Jesus to know you?

  3. i don’t believe Jesus will come twice.
    there won’t be any rapture/tribulation the way people say it or imagine it.

    when Jesus comes back, he will come to gather his saints and then judge the world!

    we are already in tribulation times!
    Christians are being persecuted right now and more and worst are on the way.
    Destruction times Jesus spoke off are already happening.
    the signs and wonders in Heaven, sun, moon, blood, smoke God spoke off, many of them are happening.

    Please read 1 Corinthians 15:21-29.
    no where does that link up with Jesus coming for Rapture>Tribulation>Jesus coming again to judge.
    Not scriptural.

    Also I was watching Bible History, A Lamp in the Dark that talks about bible translation history.
    And I just discovered new things about Catholic church.
    I can’t actually believe the Pope set himself high as the position of God and claiming to be Vicar of Christ.
    2 Thessalonians 2 Man of Lawlessness does say the antichrist will set himself up as God, in temple and deceive the elects.

    So far the new pope that arrived may not be the antichrist. But when we start seeing signs and wonders from him or anyone else, then we’ll know they are the antichrist.

    • Well, Xino, apparently, you and others of your school of thought are in for a bigger surprise than some others.

      • Well since I have not seen one half of the Earth’s population removed I think I am going to go with the belief that there we are still in Pre-tribulation. Because if we were in Tribulation then the Bible is really undercutting the end times. One Sunami does not make an end times.

        The Fourth Seal–Death
        7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come .” 8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse ; and he who sat on it had the name Death ; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth. – Last time I checked there were not 2 Billion killed!

        Also in Revelation “And out of the throne proceed lightnings and voices and thunders. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God” (4:5). –

        If the complete Holy Spirit is in Heaven then what happened to those who where indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Since he never leaves us we must make the connection that if the whole Holy Spirit is in Heaven then we must be also.

        Once the Holy Spirit is removed then the Seals are opened and the wrath of God begins.

        • I don’t think you will see the billions killed as that goes all the way back to the destruction of the temple and the abomination of desolaton, both of which have already occured. Almost 2,000 years…I’d say we may be approaching that number today.

        • What I notice in many of these discussions is both sides during a little scripture twisting, now I see in scripture a post-tribulation rapture, but what I can’t find is where it states that The Holy Spirit will be taken out of this world. When we take scripture and twist it to prove our point we create other problems. The bible speaks of some force that is keeping the demons in check, but I can find nowhere where it identify this being the Holy Spirit, like Michael it could just be a mighty angel.

          If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world who will convict the sinners during the Great Tribulation, [it’s the Holy Spirit who convicts of sin] the restrainer could be Michael himself. The Holy Spirit will never leave or forsaken His people, I believe the restrainer is a mighty angel.

      • Hello RETS

        My name is Deborah. I live in Cape Town South Africa. As believers of the Son of GOD we need to spread the WORD and be on fire for the coming of the LORD draws near.

        There is no doubt in my mind that soon we as believers will be going home and enjoy all the glory of the warm embrace of our awesome FATHER.

        I am so excited for the LORD to hold me in His arms.

        GOD BLESS

        • DEBRORAH- CAN YOU BETTER REFINE THE IDEA THE LORD IS COMING SOON. CAN YOU GIVE A DAY, MONTH, YEAR, DECADE, CENTURY. WOULD YOU — USE THE GREGORIAN, JULIAN OR MAYAN CALENDAR? OR COULD IT BE CENTRAL STANDARD GOD TIME. I LOVE DISPENSATIONALIST WHO HAVE FIGURED OUT THE BIBICAL RIDDLE OF THE TIME OF CHRIST’S SECOND AND THIRD RETURN. WHAT A TEACHING! CHRIST DIDN’T KNOW HE WAS COMING BACK TWICE. READ 2 PETER CHAPTER THREE. PETER WALKED WITH CHRIST FOR 3 YEARS. AS TO THE IDEA THAT THERE IS STILL A WEEK LEFT IN THE 70 WEEKS OF DANIEL- JUSTIN MARTYR, IRANEUS, TERTILLIAN, AND JOHN CHYSTOMAN ALL LIVED IN THE 1ST , 2ND AND 3RD CENTURY SAID THE 70 WEEKS OF DANIEL ENDED WITH THE DESRUCTION OF THE JEWS IN 70AD BY THE ROMANS. IT’S SIMPLE CHRIST WIIL RETURN WHEN MANKIND TURNS IT BACK TO HIM JUST IN THE TIME OF NOAH.

            • Hello!

              I do not believe that any one of us knows of the exact day, hour, minute or up to the second of the return of the LORD. I anticipate it soon. I was glad to join this site as I have a passion for the teachings of JESUS CHRIST of Nazareth and am hurt by the way people continue to perceive HIM as just a hippie walking on the earth. If you want to send me any versus or scriptures that will help me to understand the BIBLE better then please do as I have so much to learn. I am not a learned BIBLE person and only know a few versus out of my head but I do know that I have accepted JESUS as my SAVIOR and that since doing that I have not been strangled by the devil where I feel like I am dying. I am more at peace and will not let anyone speak in disfavor of JESUS CHRIST of Nazareth. If they knew the price he paid on the cross for our sins and how he was treated for all he stood for, one day the WHOLE WORLD will have the truth to all that was blasphemed.

              Deborah

  4. RETS:
    Well, Xino, apparently, you and others of your school of thought are in for a bigger surprise than some others.

    surprise? so you believe Jesus is coming twice?
    show me where it says so in the bible

    • Xino you do realize that Tribulation primary purpose is for the Jews and the unbelievers. It’s been God’s plan all along. Read Isiah if you don’t believe me. During tribulation many billions will die. This takes place over a period of 7 years.

      Daniel 9 – “”Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks ; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood ; even to the end there will be war ; desolations are determined. 27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering ; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

      The timing of this prophecy.
      the 1st 7 – 49 Years to build the second temple. The second 62 weeks or 7*62 = 490 – The time between the second temple and the death of Christ. The last seven, a new temple built and the abomination of desolation. This is a period of seven years.

      Lets use some Logic. A temple must be built, there must be worshiping in the temple and then a 7 year covenant will be broken. The Abomination of Desolation. Then for three years the Devil reeks havoc on the earth.

      So you are telling me that there is a temple in Jerusalem and that Jews are worshiping at the temple mount. Because that is the beginning of Tribulation. So if we know that after the Temple is built it is Seven years until Jesus returns then how can Jesus says that no one knows the day or the hour of my return. But the second coming is predicted. Jesus must be referring to a different day. This is the day Jesus comes like a thief in the night.

      Don’t forget the End times is not just Revelation but Daniel all the Major Prophets etc. They must all put together for a narrative.

      Taking this into account. What is the point of God saying believe in my Son and you will be saved but you will also be subject to unspeakable horrors none like this earth has ever witnessed. God will protect his saints from his wrath upon the earth then we will be judged.

      If there are evangelical Christians in the End Times (the whole Church) what is the point of the 144,000. Why are they needed. Surely you will not need Jews to prophisy of the messiah if his Church is still on earth.

      • the Daniel 9 you quoted sounds to me it has already happened during the BC times.

        So far the Domination that Causes Desolation links very well with the Pope because they exalt themselves as God!

        also you said Devil will wreak havoc for 3 years, where does it say that in the bible?

        Yes Jesus coming is predicted but no one knows when he’ll come, this is why people say he can come any moment so be ready.

        And I don’t know why you said this: “What is the point of God saying believe in my Son and you will be saved but you will also be subject to unspeakable horrors none like this earth has ever witnessed.”
        What horrors? will you call hate, suffering or persecution horrors?

        also the talk about 144,000 can be figure of speech!
        Didn’t Jesus say people who gave up everything to follow him will be seated amongst the 24 elders and judge the 12 tribes? How is that possible? so there will only be 24 chosen to seat?
        of course not, it’s a figure of speech.
        Just like how Jesus said we should forgive a brother 77 times 7, so what happens when you’ve fully forgiven a brother 77 x 7? when he sins against you once more, should you not forgive them because you’ve reached the 77 x 7 limit? no! Jesus meant you forgive them no matter the number.

        Again the 666, people think it’s an evil number and will mark the end times when it appears.
        The 666 feels like a figure, it really isn’t just a number as it can come in a different form.
        So this 144,000 is a figurative number.

        what I want to know is, if there would be the battle of Armageddon. I am convince there will be a battle before God destroys death, and that battle will be the moment Jesus easily defeats the Man of Lawlessness.

        • Xino, I agree with your rapture theory, check my other comments, but I don’t believe the anti will be able to deceive his elect. Please check my other comments and references. Also, the anti will not come from the papacy, his role is to be the leader of a one world order, so I truly doubt he will come from there. Rets…you are quick to judge…do you think that is your role? Be careful who you say may be surprised. RAC …I believe that we are in First Advent/First Dispensation. Rev 9:6 I believe is a way of saying that these people seek death and cannot find it because they realize they have been worshiping Satan and do not want to be anywhere near when Jesus does return for fear of judgement.

          • I live my life according to the Bible, as best as I am able, according to the strengthening of the Holy Spirit, David. For instance:

            Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. ~2 Timothy 2:15

            But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear ~1 Peter 3:15

            But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed. ~Galatians 1:8-9

            As I see it, my friend, based upon how the Word says I am to live my life, I am to separate the truth from the falsity; I am to not shy away when challenged; I am to live unafraid and unashamed; and I am to cling to the Gospel as it is written.

            So yes, when someone brings something which is not biblical, is not sound, and is not true, I will absolutely judge the message, and warn the bearer, because there is one other aspect to the life of every Christian which far too many leave untended:

            “So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul…” ~Ezekiel 33:7-9

            Not confronting false teaching, doctrine, etc., places the weight of guilt upon me. So… Should I cease to do so because it will make you, for instance, or anyone else happier with me?

            No, sir. My reverence for God is far greater than my respect for men.

          • Agreed, that is my objective as well. Everything I say will be Biblical. I guess I’ll have to list more references to clarify. But neither mine, nor yours, is to judge.

      • Revelation 13:

        42 months. = 3 years. Its the mid point of the 7 year tribulation.

        4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

        5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

        6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

        7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

        8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

        The hebrew alphabet is based on numbers. Those who read Hebrew would understand the prophecy because when the Antichrist comes to power his number will equal 666.

        Now regarding the 144,000 it is not symbolic. It specifically say 12,000 from each tribe will have the mark of God Sealed on their heads.

        The Romans ruined the Temple is AD 70. There was no convenant for 7 years with romans. Also it says the temple will be rebuilt. The temple was not rebuilt after the Romans destroyed it. You think the Pope is an Antichrist. He may be a false teacher but I believe he will rise from the Middle East. Thats about as Anti/Jew Christian as you are going to get.

        Also how can the prophecy of the Pope being the antichrist be true. He has not claimed the not built temple and there is no living idol present.

        • “Now regarding the 144,000 it is not symbolic. It specifically say 12,000 from each tribe will have the mark of God Sealed on their heads. “

          Amen. We should just read the Biblical text for what it says and not assume that something is symbolic unless there is indication of this in the text. The 144,000 are actual people from the 12 tribes of Israel.

    • Xino, you cannot get more dissimilar than “thief in the night” and “the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.”

      Reconcile these two descriptions to your personal theology, and I’ll seriously consider what you have to say on the subject.

        • Because your beliefs, Xino, are patently, demonstrably, completely opposite to the Bible.

          Moreover, according to 2 Timothy 2:15, Christians ought to study- You show no signs of having done so.

          Furthermore, according to 1 Peter 3:15, we are all to stand ready to answer and give a defense for the hope that we have- And this counts as part of that hope, for the return of Christ is an integral part of the Gospel of Christ Jesus.

          Stand and give defense, Xino.

  5. Re: The 144,000. God is perfect so if he says 144,000 there will be exactly 12,000 from each tribe. If he wanted to he could have used a vague number. But he did not. He said specifically 144,000.

    The only way a new temple is being built is if the Muslims relinquish the temple mount. Because there is currently the Muslim Dome of the Rock.

    • You seem to have a really good grasp of biblical prophecy, RAC. I agree, taken in context, the 144,000 Jews that will evangelize during the Great Tribulation is not symbolic. Of course, the Jehovah’s Witnesses identify themselves as this 144,000. Wonder how their several million world wide membership resolve this limited number? :^)

      • JW’s are a cult that don’t believe in Jesus Christ as the only savior of man. Hence, the name of Jehohvah. They have tried to predict the end times about 13 times now. Guess how accurate they have been? Regarding the 144,000 – These people were supposed to be a special group of people born before 1914 that survive until the Jehovah returns. Guess how that’s working out for them? Why I am so direct about JW? It’s because I was a JW for 16 years and know all their lies, deception and brainwashing. They are no better than any other religion or cult that doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ as the only and only way to heaven. John 14:6

  6. Hi B&E, as usual, an excellent article that really makes one think, whether or not one agrees with your opinion. I have a question that I’ve been wanting to get your opinion on and I hope I’m not veering too far off topic here. Since we’re talking about Christ’s return / rapture, my question is what do you think about Old Testament pre-incarnate appearances of Christ? Joshua 5:13-15, and various other references to “the Angel of the Lord” (Gen 16:7-14, Gen 22:11-15, Ex 3:2-4, Judges 22:22-38, and numerous others). Do you believe these were pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus? Also, what do you make of Abraham’s visit from Melchizedek “priest of the most high God” in Gen 14:18-20? Since this name is mentioned again in the very Messianic Psalm 110:4 “the Lord hath sworn and will not repent: ‘thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek’ “, and this is repeated and referred to in Heb 5:5-6, do you think that Melchizedek could have also been a theophany / christophany?

    • Hey Dave,

      Thanks very much. And I’m happy to answer your questions.

      1. The Angel of The Lord/Cristophany – Yes, the Angel of The Lord in the Old Testament is Our Lord Jesus Christ. I actually have notes for an article on this very topic with all the verses that conclusively show this to be true. So be on the look out for it.

      2. Melchizedek – I am not as convinced that this is The Lord. I tend to think that he was an actual person who was really ruling Jerusalem in the days of Abraham. The most compelling evidence that he was indeed Jesus Christ is in Hebrews 7:

      “For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.”

      Of course this description seems to fit our Lord. But, in that same chapter, we see:

      “For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.”

      This is what gives me pause. It says Christ’s priesthood is a similitude of Melchisedec. That to me always indicates a type and shadow. So by my reading, Melchizedek was a real person, who was actually king of Jerusalem. And he also served the function of High priest. And in his roles and his name (which means “King of Righteousness” and “King of Peace”), he was a foreshadow of Christ who is of course King and High Priest of all believers. As for Melchizedek having no mother or father, I take it to mean that in the Biblical record we are not told what his lineage is (as he is not listed as a relative of Abraham). In this way he is similar to Elijah, who literally just “shows up” in the Biblical account a fully grown man with no recording of his parents or his lineage.

      Please note I am not dogmatic about this at all but that is just the way I lean on this text. God bless.

      • Thanks for your prompt answer. Yep, Melchizedek is a mysterious character indeed that’s hard to pinpoint with even careful Bible study. Another possibility as to his identity that follows some of the old Hebrew tradition is that he was Shem, who would have been over 450 years old at the time of his interaction with Abraham. This is not impossible, as Genesis 11:10,11 states that Shem lived 502 more years after the Noahic flood to a total age of 600. Following the continuing geneologies from Noah to Abraham through the rest of this chapter and using simple arithmetic, you can see that Shem would have easily still been alive during Abraham’s life time.

  7. B&E, I love most of your articles, as they are mostly very sound, but on this very particular point you’re off base.

    You based most of all this reasoning for 2 Thessalonians on a very poor reading of 1 Thessalonians. The only important thing to take from the context of 1 Thessalonians is that Paul was insisting that Jesus had not yet returned because his return will be visible and powerful, and that it will include the redemption of the Saints. Differentiating between the “coming of the Lord” and the “Day of the Lord” as different is splitting hairs at best, and creatively reconstructionist at worst.

    Why do Jesus and Paul warn us all to be watchful so that Jesus not come upon us as a thief? The answer is because only those who are oposed to Christ return will be those who regard Jesus as thief. That is the point of Jesus comparing himself to a robber breaking into a house. Only those oposed to Christ’s entry would think of it this way. His saints will welcome him in! If Christ comes in the clouds with a shout, and gathers the elect, but does nothing to the rest of the world, how then could he come as a thief 7 years later? That would completly defy all sensible understanding of the purposes of the passage for Christians to be watchful.

    What is the lesson of the fig tree????

    • Gabe, this is only part of a series. How can you do the same thing you accuse BaE of doing, while accusing BaE of doing it?!

    • Hey Gabriel,

      Thanks for your comments. I will try to address some of your points:

      ” Differentiating between the “coming of the Lord” and the “Day of the Lord” as different is splitting hairs at best, and creatively reconstructionist at worst.”

      I respectfully but absolutely disagree with you here. Not only is this not splitting hairs it is expressing a fundamental doctrine on the end times. The Day of The Lord and the Second Coming are not the same event. I cannot stress this enough. We have no warrant to read these passages and say “the coming of The Lord and the Day of the Lord are just the same thing” without Biblical support. The Day of The Lord is a term used over and over and over again in Old Testament Scripture. It is used far more than the tern “great tribulation” which is why I strongly prefer using the term Day of The Lord. It is a proper noun, referring to specific series of events at the start of the end times. And it clearly starts at the 6th seal of Revelation 6.

      I invite you to read our article on the Day of The Lord and see the numerous biblical supports we show for this. All of the signs that commence the Day of The Lord are found at the opening of the 6th Seal. So it clearly is not the Second Coming, which takes place 13 chapters later in Revelation 19. I can only ask that if you are going to disagree so strongly, that you show, with Scripture, that they are the same. The post-trib model, which is clearly seeing a resurgence today, ignores the Old testament Scripture on the Day of The Lord and tries to make its case primarily based on the New Testament. I do not believe this to be a sound method of biblical interpretation. I really don’t think there is any you can through all of the passages on the Day of The Lord in the Old testament and then conclude it is the Second Coming of Christ. It is clearly the outpouring of the wrath of God on the unbelieving world starting with the events of the 6th seal of Revelation. Isaiah 2 in particular drives this home as it is almost a verbatim prophecy of the description of the global earthquake of the 6th seal

      “Why do Jesus and Paul warn us all to be watchful so that Jesus not come upon us as a thief? The answer is because only those who are oposed to Christ return will be those who regard Jesus as thief. That is the point of Jesus comparing himself to a robber breaking into a house. Only those oposed to Christ’s entry would think of it this way. His saints will welcome him in! If Christ comes in the clouds with a shout, and gathers the elect, but does nothing to the rest of the world, how then could he come as a thief 7 years later? “

      Again, I very, very strongly disagree with your interpretation here. Let’s just go to the words of our Lord:

      “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” – Matthew 24:42-44.

      The Lord coming as a thief has nothing to do with whether we oppose Him or welcome Him. It has to do with whether or not we are watching and being vigilant for His return. The point is summed up in verse 44: we are to be ready. There is no negative connotation to the “thief.” It is a Hebrew idiom which Jesus knew His audience would clearly understand. The thief has dual meanings: it was a reference to the Kohen Gadol or high Priest of the temple who would come to check on those working there in the middle of the night to make sure the temple flame was perpetually burning. He was called “the thief in the night.” It was also a reference to the return of the husband in the traditional Hebrew wedding, who would come at an unknown hour in the middle of the night to snatch His bride and take her away to His father’s house where He had prepared a place for her. And Jesus, who plays both roles for the Church, goes to this exact wedding/husband example in the very next chapter (the parable of the ten virgins). The snatching is The Rapture. And it takes place right before the Day of The Lord.

      This is why in 1 Thessalonians 5, Paul uses the same language Jesus used for the rapture, to describe the day of The Lord. The two events are almost simultaneous. It completely catches the unbelieving world off guard:

      “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.” 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4.

      At the Second Coming, NO ONE on earth would be saying “we have peace and safety!” They would have just experienced the judgments of the trumpets and vials. Billions will be dead, all the water will be poisoned after having turned to blood. Global earthquakes will have ravaged the entire globe. People will have gross boils all over their skin. And demonic hordes from the abyss will be on Earth, visibly tormenting and killing people by the billions. There clearly is no peace or safety at this time! The Day of The Lord is the BEGINNING of the end times. That is how it catches people off guard. And the rapture directly precedes it. That is why Paul uses the same language. Notice what he says in verse 1: “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.” He is saying that he knows this church already understands from prior teaching the prophetic language of the end times and thus understand the meaning of “thief in the night” and that it is the same term Jesus used to refer to the Rapture. If this is wrong, again, please show me with Scripture.

      One last major point – The Second Coming of Christ is not an unexpected event. There are numerous ways to know precisely when Jesus is going to return, once the end times have started.

      “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.” – Revelation 13:5.

      From this verse we know that from the time the Antichrist becomes global ruler of the world until the Second Coming will be 42 Hebrew months or 1260 days. So we can know with certainty when Christ will return from this point.

      ” And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” – Daniel 7:25.

      “And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.” – Daniel 12:11.

      All of these are time specific prophecies of Christ’s Second Coming. So anyone in the end times can know for certain when Christ will return to Earth. And let’s not forget that the trumpets and vials themselves are direct indicators that lead to the Second Coming.

      Even the Antichrist and the unbelieving world know:

      “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” – Revelation 16:12-14

      “And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.” – Revelation 19:19.

      The Antichrist, False Prophet and the kings of the world and their armies are all gathered together for Armageddon. Spirits recruit these world leaders and their armies to come together for this battle. When Jesus arrives in Revelation 19 they are waiting for Him. clearly, without question, they are not “caught off guard” by The Lord’s Coming! They know, in advance that Jesus is coming, where He will arrive and our ready to wage war against Our Lord and us. So not only will believers know the moment of the Second Coming, even the most evil people in the world, who want to fight Jesus and His Saints, will know.

      So the Second Coming, by clear Scripture, is an expected event      . This also refutes the post-tribulation model which tries to force the Day of The Lord/thief in the night scriptures into Armageddon. But it is just not a correct interpretation. God bless.

  8. B&E – I recently stumbled upon your site from another site. I am very impressed. Although on some biblical doctrine, there is no clear cut interpretation given; you have made an excellent case(s) based on real scriptural analysis techniques e.g. hermeneutics. You are also helping others learn the bible in a deeper way; something very much needed! Kudos to you.

    • Hi Brad,

      Thanks very much. Your comments are much appreciated. Our goal with articles, especially on Bible prophecy is to try our best to look to Scripture only to inform our interpretations, even if they are not popular or seem unusual. Glory to God that the site has been a blessing to you.

  9. For those who have ears and have eyes to see!!

    The rapture (gathering together) is prophesied to happen at the end of the 6th seal !!
    Read Revelations and be blessed!!

    The Lord Jesus calls us together to him at that time.
    The seventh seal starts the Fathers Lord God Almightys wrath which is the wrath we are saved from by Jesus calling us up.

    For those who are asleep you will not hear or see !!

    Ask the precious Holy Spirit of my heavenly Father Lord God Almighty to give you wisdom and knowledge as you read Revelation.

    It is clearly seen by one with the Spirit !!

    The lawlwess one (666) is already on the move , this IS the last generation , and we shall meet our precious Lord Jesus in the air very soon !!

    The time of satans 3 1/2 yrs is upon us (the great tribulation ) !!

    Peace be unto you

    • thanks.
      this is what I believe too.
      when Jesus returns, he’s only coming back once. People try to make it as if he’s coming back twice.

      I believe Satan is locked in the abyss right now.

      I am just wondering if there will be a battle. Because Rev and Isaiah already pointed out that there will be a battle, also Zachariah said so too.

      • Because He is: Once as a thief (by Christ’s own description); and once as the General of the Armies of the Lord.

        Once, where He is seen only by those He receives; and twice, where the whole of the earth comes out to war against Him.

        Where’s your biblical evidence of Satan being locked in the Abyss? My Bible tells me that he was wandering the earth to and fro in Job, and that he remains “roaming the earth seeking whom he may devour.”

        Your understanding of the Bible is, sadly, looking extremely shaky, unless you can provide a defense.

        • do not let your pride get over your head.
          for God detest prideful people.

          we all have our own understanding of the bible.
          if you don’t know what i’m talking about or don’t know the verse, ask where I got it from, you don’t insult me by saying i lack understanding of the bible.

          Read
          Revelation 20
          The Thousand Years
          20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

          If Satan is not locked right now, I’m sure he would have appeared to many people in his image like he did to Jesus at the Desert and Job. Right now, it’s the demons doing Satan’s works.
          We are currently in a thousand years, 2013 yrs. When this thousand years has ended would be when Satan is released to deceive the nation.
          And from my understanding would be where we have the Battle of Armageddon.

          • Xino

            I think instead of using scripture you are just coming up with ideas that sound nice. The Bible clearly says that the bounding of Satan comes after the battle of Armageddon. The antichrist and false prophet get thrown into the lake of fire and Satan gets bound for 1000 years. This 1000 years is the millennial Kingdom that Jesus will be the head of. After this 1000 is when Satan get released one last time and gathers the worlds armies from Gog and Magog and the final victory will take place and a new heaven and earth will happen. Just because satan does not appear like he did to Jesus does not mean he is bound now. Satans best tool is influencing the world invisibly. You need to separate opinion from scripture to many times do u say things based off of your ideas alone. Gods word must be looked at for these things not the ideas of man.

          • Xino, I’m this close from calling bunk- You’ve literally just proven that you know zip about the subject in which you are engaged.

            For this to be the Thousand Year Reign… 1) Christ would have to be physically ruling in Jerusalem; 2) The Antichrist, the beast and the false prophet would already have had to show; 3) Armageddon would have already had to take place; 4) Christ would have already returned, leading the saints in full, physical battle against the armies of the world.

            1) Christ is not physically ruling in Jerusalem. The peace that is described as being present when Christ rules is not here, or had you not noticed?

            2) No single individual has risen at any time in history to fit the mold of Antichrist exactly. Some say it was Alexander the Great, others say it was Constantine; the fact of the matter is that no one man has ruled the entire world- Ever. Furthermore, while there have been many false prophets, there has yet to be one which has brought life to a statue; and said statue has yet to move, speak, and act with total impunity.

            3) No war in man’s history has enjoined every nation in the world. Even the so-called “World Wars” had nations sitting out. In Armageddon, there will be no Switzerland.

            4) At the return of Christ to earth to wage war, all eyes see Him. That would make news, and said news has not aired.

            You also show a complete lack of understanding when it comes to the timeline of events. Revelation is clear that Christ returns PRIOR to the Millennial Reign, and returns making war at Armageddon. Placing Armageddon after the Thousand Year Reign has no support anywhere in the Bible, and as such, may mean you should familiarize yourself with Galatians 1:8-9.

  10. I think he will be revealed politically as the head of the EU first while the church is still here and then revealed mid Trib as a god. The church does not go through Tribulation, but that does not mean she won`t face fearsome times before Tribulation. Too many see roses and candy then the Rapture. There will be a great falling away in the church and it has already begun, but will intensify as the days go on.

  11. When he arises politically it does not mean Tribulation has begun that happens when he signs the seven year pact with Israel. So the Rapture could happen between his political appt and the signing of the pact. He has to be in power to sign a treaty that kicks off Tribulation. After 3 1/2 years he arises as a god to be worshipped.

  12. You must be baptized in the Spirit of the heavenly Father for you
    to have wisdom and knowledge and only through the Holy Spirit is this wisdom and knowledge received.
    The Truth is of the Father and not of man!!
    Listen to what the Spirit is saying.
    Peace be unto you

    • And your point is, Truth? To further expound upon my question, how does your question relate to this article or the comments herein? I can see it applied to some comments, but not to others.

      • RETS

        My point is
        You have to have the Holy Spirit to know the truth of what time it is.
        You are of an worldly mind and of worldly thoughts and you cannot see nor hear
        what the Spirit is saying.
        You are correct the Lord has not began His millennial reign on earth nor has the “Beast” appeared to sit
        on the Holy throne of Jerusalem claiming he is God.

        The lawless one is accomplishing exactly what Revelation says he will NOW!
        In ’09 there were 165,000 Christians murdered for their faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
        He does have the number 666 and the Beast has also the number 666.
        You can count the numbers just as Revelations says.
        I will give you a hint Lucifer is the beast. get his number by using 9 a=9 , b=18 etc.
        The lawless one has also 666 for his number and he is a man. You will need to use the number 6 to
        count the lawless ones number a=6 , b=12 etc.
        We have almost arrived at the end of the first 3 1/2 years where the lawless one destroyed by death ,
        hunger plagues and lies and deceit.
        Soon the beast will be thrown to earth (satan) lucifer (the prince to come ) as Jesus states the reason He must leave after His resurrection.
        This will begin the last 3 1/2 years the great tribulation. satans rule and this will continue through the 6th seal till the rapture (gathering together).
        The 7th seal is the Father taking control over the earth (no more time) and pours forth His wrath upon all the world.
        You must have the Holy SPirit to have the wisdom and knowledge which Revelation speaks of.
        For those who have wisdom let them hear what the Spirit says!
        Peace be unto you

  13. PsyQo Mike:
    Xino

    I think instead of using scripture you are just coming up with ideas that sound nice. The Bible clearly says that the bounding of Satan comes after the battle of Armageddon. The antichrist and false prophet get thrown into the lake of fire and Satan gets bound for 1000 years. This 1000 years is the millennial Kingdom that Jesus will be the head of. After this 1000 is when Satan get released one last time and gathers the worlds armies from Gog and Magog and the final victory will take place and a new heaven and earth will happen. Just because satan does not appear like he did to Jesus does not mean he is bound now. Satans best tool is influencing the world invisibly. You need to separate opinion from scripture to many times do u say things based off of your ideas alone. Gods word must be looked at for these things not the ideas of man.

    Rev 19:18
    19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

    Rev 20
    20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

    Rev 20:7
    7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    So if I am using scriptures for show and fun, where is yours? Satan will be bound for 1000yrs (which he is right now). Later release and will deceive the nation and they will make war. This is where Jesus will come riding in the sky and easily defeat them.
    Just like B&E linked David and Goliath battle interlinking with Armageddon battle. There is a scripture in the bible that says we will fight using ‘Slingshot’, which is the same weapon David used, proving that what B&E said was very accurate.

    But I won’t link you the verse because “I’m pulling verses for show”.
    You guys can argue here all you want, see if it will get you to heaven or save souls. I’m sure arguing here and trying to be right and making others inferior is more important than doing God’s works and commands.

    peace! and please don’t bother commenting because I won’t be reading anymore prideful comments.

    • Xino wrote:

      “So if I am using scriptures for show and fun, where is yours? Satan will be bound for 1000yrs (which he is right now). ”

      HUH?? Then how do you explain 1 Peter 5:8 “….because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour”? And as RETS has so eloquently pointed out, none of the conditions that are required for the content of the verses that you refer to in Rev 19 and 20 exist, or have ever existed yet. As I recall some preacher saying many years ago, ‘if Satan is bound now, it sure is an awfully long chain that he’s tethered to!’ Happy Easter everyone :^)

      • Dave: As I recall some preacher saying many years ago, ‘if Satan is bound now, it sure is an awfully long chain that he’s tethered to!’ Happy Easter everyone :^)

        That is a great quote, Dave. Happy Resurrection Celebration!

  14. That’s an excellent point that I’ve never thought of before, RAC. Why would we need 144K Jews to evangelize the world if there still millions of New Testament church Christians here on the planet? I think sometimes there is a fine balance between taking the biblical text too literally and over-symbolizing it. Remember, the vast majority of the OT saints were only looking for the Messiah to come once, too. As a matter of fact, this school of thought wasn’t truly debunked until Christ’s ascension back into heaven (Acts 1:11).

    • Dear Dave:

      I am not convinced the 144K Jews are evangelists. Nowhere does the Bible say they are evangelists. People say this over and over but there is 0 scriptural support. It is an assumption.

      It seems possible to me that the 144K are Jews who God wants to survive the Tribulation and enter the Millenium. That is just as good an explanation.

      • James Fox: I am not convinced the 144K Jews are evangelists. Nowhere does the Bible say they are evangelists. People say this over and over but there is 0 scriptural support. It is an assumption.

        All believers are called to be evangelists, thus the 144k Jews are by extension evangelists. This seems like a foregone conclusion when one has even a minimal understanding of Scripture… But then again, apparently “If Jesus were alive today, I think he would be more inclined to say: ‘you know, I didn’t know it all’…” So… What do I know?

  15. Hello B & E
    I enjoy reading your articles, however, your very
    own study on this subject contradicts what
    2 Thessalonians 2 says.
    It clearly states that the “falling away” & the “son of
    perdition” will come first.
    So we Christians will indeed know/witness both before
    Our Lord comes in the clouds.

    • Dear Jenn:

      I suggest you be more specific. You state, “It clearly states that the “falling away” & the “son of
      perdition” will come first.” First before what? Answer, the Day of the Lord.

      • The big question is: when is the Day of the Lord? Is it a pre-trib rapture or is it the Second Advent? I think it is the Second Advent. Why?

        What is meant by “the man of lawlessness is revealed? I think the next sentence tells you. His revelation is when he proclaims himself to be God. That is pretty revealing! This is the mid-point of the Tribulation. Thus the Day of the Lord comes after the mid-point of the Tribulation. It is not pre-trib.

      • Hi James,
        Yes, I really should have been more specific..
        Sorry.
        Please allow me to reiterate.
        Paul is stating that the Day of Our Lord is at hand
        (referring to the rapture)
        He is warning the Christians not to be decieved, that
        Jesus will NOT come unless theres the “falling away”
        & the “son of perdition” is revealed.
        So we Christians will certainly know who the AntiChrist is.

        • Hi Jenn,

          Forgive me for repeating myself in this thread, but I am just trying to address the questions everyone has raised (as this is a very good Biblical discussion taking place). I would submit that “The Day of The Lord” is not a reference to the Rapture. If you have time or are so inclined, I would invite you to read our article on the Day of The Lord that goes into detail on this. The Day of The Lord is a phrase used repeatedly in the Old Testament end time prophecies in reference to God rising up to punish the unbelieving world and I believe much can be gained by understanding it. God bless you. Link

      • Hi James,

        Once again, I disagree with you. The Day of The Lord and the Second Coming of Christ are not the same event. Nor is the Day of The Lord in view in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I again invite you to read our article on the Day of The Lord where we go through numerous Old testament scriptures that directly reference and describe it. I would really love to hear your thoughts on that article: it can be found here.

    • Hi Jenn,

      Thanks very much for your comments. It is much appreciated! As to your disagreement, I will just post the verses in question:

      “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

      The Greek grammar in verse 1 indicates two separate events being described. But verse 2 references ONE event: the Day of Christ. Verse 3’s statement of “that day” is referring to the Day of Christ. I would submit this is the grammatically correct reading of this passage. I think the problem is that many Bible prophecy experts and writers have glossed over the phrase “the Day of Christ” despite it being a proper noun and specific event in the passages written by the Apostle Paul -namely the Second Coming of Christ. So my challenge to you (which you of course do not have to accept. lol) is to give the passages a fresh look and see if any of the points made in the article bare this out.

      I really appreciate your post because it reflects a care and concern for the accurate representation of Scripture. We in this ministry want our articles to be put to Biblical scrutiny to make sure they are in line with God’s Holy Word. Thanks for your diligence. God bless.

      • What specific aspect of Greek grammar indicates to you that these 2 events are separated in time. I know some Greek and I do not see it.

        Also, see my reply elsewhere. I looked at Biblegateway.com which has 43 Bibles you can search. I went through every one. 6 said “day of Christ” in verse 2. One said, “day of the Masters arrival.” 36 said “day of the Lord.” Modern scholarship is almost unanimous. “Day of the Lord” is correct. “Day of Christ” is wrong.

        • Hi James,

          The Greek in the actual manuscript (which we should look to if we want to know precise wording and meaning) is hemera Christos, which means “Day of Christ.” So the KJV has translated it correctly (and shows another reason as to why this site does not use modern versions).

          • codexsinaiticus.org/en/codex/history.aspx has a nice review of the history of this manuscript. It was never given to the Vatican where they could edit it. The only person who could have edited it was Tischendorf himself. I do not believe he edited it.

            There is no evidence that Catholic scholars had anything to do with Sinaiticus.

            • Hi James,

              There is actually a great deal of evidence that the Vatican was involved with Sinaticus as Tischendorf visited the Vatican on his way to Sinai where he took the manuscript from. This is proven by his own writings.

              Additionally, as you may know, there is also a major documentary about Constantine Simonides who claimed to be the author of the manuscript known as Codex Sinaticus (it was originally known as Codez Simonides). It was drafted by Simonides, an expert in ancient languages and paleographer, as a gift to the Czar of Russia. The Russian government asked Simonides to give the manuscript to the Bishop of the monsastery at Sinai. After Tischendorf took the manuscript and tried to claim it was the “oldest manuscript” of all time, Simonides challenged this claim ina series of letters for 3 years that were published in the London Guardian. So the manuscript was not old, but rather drafted in 1840. Simonides knew intimate details about the manuscripts which was written on vellum obtained from the monastery at Athos. He knew it had moth holes prior to the text being written and accordingly wrote around those holes (which can be seen on Sinaticus today). The pages where he claimed to have put his personal insignia were burned on the manuscript.

              All these details and many more can be seen in the Documentary “Tares Among Wheat”
              Here is a brief clip that shows the burn marks.

              And here is the full documentary

              Additionally, the codex Sinaticus by Tischendorf’s own count, had 14,000 revisions. By the time the Library that now houses the codex reviewed it, they counted 23,000. These are astounding numbers. Both Sinaticus and Vaticanus have so many errors and inconsistencies, their reliability cannot be relied upon at all.

              • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon and Hi
                Just by chance I noticed that BE had made a religious blunder, when commenting on the Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, when it replied to James Fox’s comment. I have taken the liberty of copying your last paragraph of your reply to show your blatant error.
                BE wrote: ‘Additionally, the codex Sina[i]ticus by Tischendorf’s own count, had 14,000 revisions. By the time the Library that now houses the codex reviewed it, they counted 23,000. These are astounding numbers. Both Sina[i]ticus and Vaticanus have so many errors and inconsistencies, their reliability cannot be relied upon at all.’
                BE’s error is shown in the last sentence of the paragraph, stating that the early Bibles are not reliable and cannot be relied upon at all! I and many scholars have been stating this fact for centuries, of the fallibility of the man-made scriptures, however, when we voice our concerns, we are called heretics, anti-Christian, Pagan worshippers, and Atheist propagandists, etc.
                It is a known scholarly fact that the systematic process for finding the more likely original text in a multitude of varying and diverse copies of the Bible or any ancient MS, is called ‘Textual Criticism.’ Copies that are closer to the original in date, are seen as being the more accurate, than one several hundred years or more away from the original in date. The Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are three centuries away from a supposed original source, whereas the king James version is over sixteen centuries (published 1611). In addition, scholars see the Codex Sinaiticus as more reliable and accurate, than any of the modern Bibles. I will cede that you were right about the errors and inconsistencies of the Sinaiticus, however, the errors and inconsistencies you speak of are between the Sinaiticus and modern Bibles! The Sinaiticus is as you remarked full of inconsistencies of man-made anomalies from spelling mistakes from the three original scribes (A, B and D)* that copied the work (Tischendorf believed wrongly that a forth (C) scribes was involved, to the later seven correctors (a, b, c, ca, cb, cc, and e),** as well as the several hundred interpolations and man-made interpretations of events, which run into many thousands, etc.
                *[Scribal Habits of Codex Sinaiticus, pp. 12-13, by Kirk Jongkind (2007)]
                **[The Text of the New Testament: An Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism, p. 107, By Kurt Aland]
                Best regards
                Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

  16. Good stuff brother. One quick question. How do you reconcile this with this verse from Jesus? “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Matthew 24:29-31. It sounds to me as if Jesus is saying the rapture will come “Immediately after the tribulation of those days” which also matches up nice (as you have pointed out in other articles) with the description in Revelation 6 after the 6th seal is opened. I would love to hear you take on this…

    God bless you for your work and effort in rightly dividing the word of truth.

    • Ps, I forgot to mention, Jesus says the above right after saying, ““Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.”

    • Dear Darrel:

      An interesting tangential point:

      “all the tribes of the earth will mourn” What does that mean? Here are some useful facts.

      1) The Greek word tribes is the same word used in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament, for the tribes of Israel. It is not the word “nations” even though some translations translate it as nation. Tribes is the correct translation.

      2) The Greek word translated earth also means “land.”

      3) in Hebrew “the Land” is a synonym for Israel.

      Thus I think the right way to translate it is “all the tribes of the Land [of Israel] will mourn.” It is very Jewish centered. No I am not a dispensationalist who see Mt. 24 as very Jewish centered.

    • Greetings Brother. Thanks very much for the kind words. Praise God that you appreciated this article. The question of Matthew 24 and “after the tribulation” is a tough one but there is an article on this entire chapter in the works (and it will probably be a series as it is getting long). But I will give you a “preview” and try to explain it in a short form as best as I can. My interpretation is the following:

      Matthew 24:1-8 Jesus The Lord is describing the first four seals in the same order as Revelation 6.

      Matthew 24:9-28 Is a description of the 5th seal (Christian martyrdom) and the events Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation.

      Matthew 24:29-31 It loops back to picking up from where verse 8 left off and is now describing the 6th Seal, the rapture and the Second Coming.

      Now once again, I know this is a very unique interpretation and you or some may be wondering, “how in the world can he make such a crazy reading of this chapter?” I would humbly submit that this is often the “writing style” of the book of Matthew. I will give one clear example that we know for sure from Matthew 27 (because it is describing a past event):

      “45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias. 48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him. 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

      51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. 55 And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: 56 Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children. 57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus’ disciple: 58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. 59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,”

      You are obviously familiar with this passage. But here is my question for you as it pertains to your question: On what day in the chronology described in the Scriptures above was there an earthquake and the graves open and the saints resurrect to life? You might think it was on the day of Jesus’ death (as any movies and articles depict). But following the Scriptures carefully we see this happened “after His resurrection” as described in verse 53. Then in verse 54, now at least 3 days after the death of Jesus, the centurion who kept watch of His body on the cross and his men saw the resurrected saints and the Earthquake and they were scared because they knew “truly this was the Son of God.”

      But here is what is really fascinating: Look at verse 55. When does that event take place? On the day of Jesus’ crucifixion. We are suddenly, without any prior notice whatsoever, shifted back to the cross, where our Lord’s body is still hanging. Then of course we Mary, mary, James and Joses and the wife of Zebedee, all those who attended the crucifixion. In verse 56 we see further confirmation of this because Joseph of Arimithea asks for the body of Jesus, so this is clearly before his burial. So right in the middle of the crucifixion chronology, we get a break where Matthew carries out a thought through time (in this case to the events after the resurrection) and jumps back in time. This “thought-chronology style” is unique to Matthew and I believe explains much of the confusion and debate over Matthew 24. So when we get to Matthew 24:29 and see “after the tribulation of those days” I believe that Matthew is jumping back to verse 8-9 and picking up where he left with the seals (because he was describing the “tribulation” of the persecution of the church, something the church has endured since the Ascension of our Lord to Heaven). So “those days” is a reference to the entire church age. And we get a second confirmation of this because the signs Matthew lists in that verse ONLY occur at the 6th Seal (sun going black, moon not giving light and the powers of heaven being shaken).

      I know that Matthew 24:29 has been a big subject of debate (especially of late with the release of the documentary “After The Tribulation” – a film I think is filled with biblical error) so it is something that we definitely need to address and discuss with great care. In our article “Understanding Matthew 24” we go into greater detail on this. But in the meantime I offer the preceding as something for your consideration. God bless you abundantly.

      • Hello BeginningandEnd,

        I really am enjoying your articles. It completely re-routed me from an uneducated, fuzzy view of a post-trib model to an educated, 6th seal rapture pre-trib model, so thank you.

        I am curious, based on the fact the earthquake happened, graves opened and saints came back to life, AFTER his resurrection (thank you for the correction based on movies) (I’m guessing the earthquake happened after Mary and Mary visited the tomb), do you think that could be a foreshadowing of the rapture and Day of the Lord? I am thinking that the rapture happens first, then later in the day (same day) the Day of the Lord begins with an earthquake.

        Another thing I struggle with is if a massive earthquake happens, won’t that shut down media from covering the rapture? Do you think the strong delusion is a false story of the rapture (UFOs etc), or is the Antichrist’s portrayal as God?

        Do you think a feast day can be used twice or three times for the Lord’s purposes (Christ’s resurrection, the rapture and the Day of the Lord)? Perhaps the rapture will happen on the Feast of Fruits just like what happened with Jesus’s resurrection? If the rapture is to come like a thief (I’m not referring to the second coming – I know the difference now), and some people think it will happen on the Feast of First Fruits, how can one “not know the day”? (I guess we just can’t know the day FOR SURE). Do you think there is a chance it will NOT be on a feast day to make it more of a surprise?

        What is the overall significance of the number 4? I know the significance of 3 has to do with being raised to life. What do you think will be fulfilled on the Feast of Trumpets (the fourth blood super moon) ? Does the scripture give any clues? I am very curious as to what will be happening for the church or for Israel with the 4 blood moons in 2014/2015. Something will likely happen.

        Also, do you have any knowledge on how long traditional (Jesus’s time) bethrothal was? This would be more historical data versus biblical. The only information I can find is Esther’s 1 year of preparation.

        You are doing a fantastic job of educating using God’s word. Keep up the good work. Christ is thankful for you.

        Christine

        • Hi Christine,

          Thank you so much for your kind comments. I praise The Lord in Heaven that the site has been a blessing to you and your end times perspective. Eschatology is indeed often “fuzzy” and hard to understand. It takes time, prayer and God’s Spirit to begin to grasp what the Scriptures are saying absent any private interpretation. So I’m very glad we are in agreement on the timing of the Rapture.

          Now to get to your questions:

          1. Earthquake/Resurrection – I think you are absolutely right that there is a connection between resurrection to a Divine body (Christ being the first of course) and earthquakes. And I do think it is a foreshadow of the Rapture/Day of The Lord. I could not have stated that thought any better than you just did. Excellent point.

          2. After Rapture Media Coverage – The global earthwquake will indeed devasatate the globe and cause damage to media outlets, etc. While I am sure some mnedia will still be fine (satellite, and thus lots of internet connections, social media, etc.), there will be collossal damage. Despite this, I believe it will be apparent to the world from the sheer devastation, combined with all of the signs of the 6th Seal, that God caused the Earthquake. Revelation 6 ends with the unbelieving world clearly acknowledging God’s existence and power. Once the Rapture occurs, the “veil” between the Earthly and divine realm is kind of removed. God is now directly acting to the point that a heathen will openly acknowledge His wrath. Angels are descending on Earth and emerging from the pit. The Antichrist and False Prophet will perform all sorts of superantural miracles, and so on. So even absent global media coverage, the world will no longer live in denial of divine forces. It will just be a matter of choosing what to believe in. And as we know, most will fall for the deception of the antichrist who will no doubt use these events to position himself as the “christ” who can save Israel and the globe from it all. And that is what I believe the strong delusion is – the belief that the Antichrist is God, and specifically, the Messiah.

          I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. – John 5:43.

          That being said, I do think it’s possible that the angels who will appear on Earth could present themselves as aliens or some other type of lie to confuse and further seduce humanity. But the actual delusion is the false belief that the antichrist is God.

          3. Feast Day – This is a great question. I have recently revised my beliefs on the Feast Days in the end times. And I am working on articles to explain this (specifically how the Feast Days tie in with the 70th week and the Second Coming). In short, I do not believe any Feast Day will be prophetically fulfilled twice (and I do not believe the Rapture will fall on a Feast Day). And I now believe that the fall Feast Days will be fulfilled prophetically in succession at the Second Coming.

          When The Lord fulfilled the spring Feast Days, He did so wuth exact precision to the day. He of course died on Passover. He was in the grave during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The resurrection was on First Fruits. And then 50 days after the Feast of Unleavened Bread we of course had Pentecost. All these fulfillments were done with literal events on the actual calendar days in rapid succession. As such, I am inclined to believe all the fall feasts will be fulfilled in similar fashion (i.e., in the same year, which would be the final year of the 70 week prophecy).

          We can find some confirmation of this in Daniel:

          And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
          10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
          11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
          12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
          13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days. – Daniel 12:8-13.

          In this passage, Daniel is actually looking for clarification on the timeline of the end times (much like we are doing today). The angel responds by not saying when they are going to start, but when they will end. And the answer all relates to the temple. Now we of course know the abomination of desolation will be set up in the middle of the 70th week. For 3 1/2 Hebrew years the Antichrist will then rule the Earth until the Second Coming. In the first half of the 70th week, Israel is operating the temple in Levitical fashion (but under the great delusion and not worshiping The Lord Jesus Christ). The Antichrist will then betray Israel and proclaim himself God, setting up the abomination in the temple. Prior to this, as the passage above states, the sacrifice and oblation will be ceased (just as Antiochos Epiphanes did as prophesied in Daniel 11). And then the abomination of desolation is set up. So from my reading it appears the end of the sacrifices takes place and then the abomination of desolation is set up. We know that after 1260 days, The Lord returns and defeats the Antichrist forever. So where does the 1290 come from? I believe there is a time of cleansing that will take place, to remove the abomination from the temple and prepare for the true Messiah, Our Lord. This is precisely what took place after the original abomination done by Antiochus Epiphiphanes.

          So now let’s relate this all back to the feast days. If the Second Coming/Armageddon is the Day of Atonement, 75 days later (1260 + 75 = 1335) is the Feast of the Dedication or Hannukah. This Feast was created
          specifically to celebrate the rededication of the temple after the first abomination. And at the Second Coming, the temple will once again be cleansed as Christ will be ruling from it. Jesus acknowledged Hannukah in John 10:

          22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
          23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.
          24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
          25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
          26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
          27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
          28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
          29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
          30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

          The Lord attended the temple for Hannukah. Thus we can know it is a truly Biblical Feast Day. He used that occassion to proclaim Himself God in the temple. 75 days after Armageddon, the temple will again be cleansed and The Lord will sit on the throne of David, ruling the entire world.

          4. Signioficance of the Number 4 (which happened to be your 4th question) – The number 4 in Scripture relates to the Heavenly realm. God’s throne is surrounded by 4 angels. The Garden of Eden, which was where God originally manifested His presence on Earth, had 4 rivers running out of it. The Apsotle Paul said: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Notice he lists 4 types of angelic beings. Daniel sees a vision of 4 beasts in chapter 7. The 4th one is “diverse” from the rest. Why? Because it is a representation of the end times Antichrist kingdom that will be part angelic/part human.

          So there are many occassions where 4 is connected to Heavenly realm beings. However, I do not put any credence in the 4 Blood Moon theory. It does not have sound scriptural foundation. For more on this see my article here: https://beginningandend.com/beware-of-the-four-blood-moons-deception/

          5. I will get back to you on the betrothal issue. I believe I have notes on this question so I will try and find it for you. With respect to biblical references also see Judges 13 and 14 and the account of Samson. There are several references to the ancient Hebrew betrothal tradition (for example, he gives a riddle and tells the audience they have until the end of the 7 days of the wedding feast to figure it out. A rather interesting statement).

          Thanks again for your questions, encouragement and your very thought-provoking comments. I truly and deeply appreciate it. God bless you abundantly. -B&E

  17. / Hi Beginning… Love your blog. I spotted the following on the web. Any reactions? Lord bless. /

    Pretrib Rapture Pride

    Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
    Ice’s mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn’t find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 – and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers “the early pretribulationists” (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including “Pseudo-Ephraem” and a “Rev. Morgan Edwards,” taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist’s arrival as the only “imminent” event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an “imminent” pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards’ historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” and journalist/historian Dave MacPherson’s “Deceiving and Being Deceived” for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
    The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read “pretrib” into phrases like “before Armageddon,” “before the final conflagration,” and “escape all these things”!
    BTW, the KJV translators’ other writings found in London’s famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don’t have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib “proof” in the KJV that its translators never found?
    Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up “Famous Rapture Watchers” (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
    Pretrib didn’t flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby “explanatory notes” in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield’s criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book “The Praise of Folly” which is available online.
    Biola University’s doctrinal statement says Christ’s return is “premillennial” and “before the Tribulation.” Although universities stand for “academic freedom,” Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases – non-essentials the founders purposely didn’t include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
    Ice, BTW, has a “Ph.D” issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn’t authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he’s working on another “Ph.D” via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice’s scholarliness, Google “Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “be careful in polemics – Peripatetic Learning,” and “Walvoord Melts Ice.” Also Google “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)” – featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 “End Times Passover” blog.
    Other fascinating Google articles include “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “X-raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrets,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” and “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism” – most from the author of “The Rapture Plot,” the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history.
    Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?
    (Postscript: For another jolt or two Google “The Background Obama Can’t Cover Up.”)

    • Hi Carolyn,

      Thanks for sharing this very thought provoking article. I would like to share some quotes from church fathers on the Rapture for your consideration.

      Irenaeus, Against Heresies, AD 170 (Irenaeus was the Bishop of Lyon, France. He was an eyewitness of the Apostle John and his disciple, Polycarp.)

      5.29 – “When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, it is said, “There will be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, nor will be.”

      Cyprian, Treaties of Cyprian, AD 250 (Cyprian was the Bishop of Carthage)

      21-26 – ” We sho see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, sets us free from the snares of the world, and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.

      Pseudo Ephraiam, AD 373 – This was a sermon that was transcribed and distributed for the church. It is called “pseudo” not because there are any doubts about the sermon itself, but a question arose later on over who the original author was.

      On The Last Times 2 – “..because all saints and the lect of The Lord are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and be taken to The Lord.”

      So these 3 examples, from church fathers, refute the point of that article. Additionally, even if no church fathers believed in a “pretribulation rapture” that would not prove or disprove it. We always have to go by what the inspired Word of God says over anything or anyone. And so the Bible is the final and ultimate authority on the issue of the Rapture. And of course it is our belief that Scripture supports a rapture at the opening of the 6th Seal just prior to the Day of The Lord and the outpouring of God’s wrath on the world. The Lord Jesus, when describing these events said:

      “And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” – Luke 21:28.

      God bless.

      • ” it is our belief that Scripture supports a rapture at the opening of the 6th Seal” If that is true, and I believe you are correct, then the Rapture is not pre-trib.

        Have you noticed something:

        Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake. Rev 8:5

        And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Rev 11:19

        Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.” 18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. …. 21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe. Rev. 16:17-21

        Are these three different but extremely similar events or are they three descriptions of the same event? All three mention thunder, lightning, and and earthquake. The last 2 mention a hail storm. Occam’s Razor would say they are the same event. If that is so, then the rapture is after the 7’th bowl. This is the end of the Tribulation. This suggests the Rapture is post trib.

        Rev 20:4-5 says the first resurrection is at or after the Second Advent. This suggests the Rapture is post trib.

        “and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,” 2 Thess 1:7.

        So we get relief at the second advent, not pre-trib or mid-trib or pre-wrath.

        • Hi James,

          The seals, trumpets and vial judgments of Revelation are in sequence.

          I will try to address your other point:

          Rev 20:4-5 says the first resurrection is at or after the Second Advent. This suggests the Rapture is post trib.

          “and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,” 2 Thess 1:7.

          So we get relief at the second advent, not pre-trib or mid-trib or pre-wrath.

          Let’s look at Revelation 20:4-5 to see what it says ion context:

          And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:1-6).

          From this passage we see several distinct events. Here are the relevant aspects:

          1) The saints who die DURING the Great Tribulation are those that live and reign with Christ during the Millenium.

          2) The rest of the dead will remain in hell for the entire Millennium until the Great White Throne Judgment which takes place at the end of the 1,000 years.

          3) So when verse 6 says “blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection..” it is talking about the former group from verse 4.

          4) This passage has nothing to do with the Rapture. The church has been raptured well before this and has already returned with Christ to Earth in Revelation 19. In Revelation 19 we see the bride of Christ, who is then called the Wife. This is the raptured church.

          Now let’s look at 2 Thessalonians 1:7 in context:

          3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

          Paul was writing to a church under intense persecution. He praises them for enduring persecution and then reminds them that God in His righteous judgment will exact punishment on those who are enemies of Christ. And in verse 7 he says “rest with us”, as in “believe with all your faith and trust” in Christ, who will carry this out fully at Armageddon. Again, this has nothing to do with the rapture. It’s just a word of encouragement and a reminder that vengeance is truly The Lord’s.

  18. if it isn’t the pre-tribulation rapture why would Jesus say this Pray always that you may be found worthy to escape those things that are coming upon this planet earth,,and STAND! before the Son of Man. if he is coming back why would he urge us to pray always to escape…..also i believe the 70th week of Daniel is key the Angel told Daniel 70 weeks have been Deemed FOR YOUR PEOPLE. Revelation 4 Come Up here and I will show you things which must take place AFTER this. AFTER what…the last 2 chapters where about the Church age. could this doctirne of post-trib even be making more people fall asleep and relax. eh just my thoughts 🙂

  19. I often wonder about the origins.
    According to Genesis, Adam and Eve were not the first humans, because their son Cain, went off to the ‘Land of Nod’ and found himself a wife.

    • You may be reading that wrong, John.

      Does the Bible say that he found himself a wife? No, it only says that he “…went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son—Enoch.” (Genesis 4:16-17)

      Interestingly enough, the word “Nod” means “wanderer.” In other words, that land did not exist in name prior to Cain’s arrival. Moreover, we can see that Cain built a city and named it after his son- Building an entire city cannot happen in populated areas, yet here we see Cain credited with the creation (not just the founding) of an entire city.

      Moreover, allow me to pose a question to you: If there were supposedly humans on Earth prior to Adam and Eve, why then did God state “Let us make man in our own image and in our likeness” and then create Adam and Eve? There is no intersecting event; no stoppage of time; no period in which some other form of man could have been created.

      Aside from this issue with that theory, we have another: The Earth was without form and void. From the time that God begins to speak creation into being, everything follows a very specific order, and there are no gaps. Additionally, each creation event takes one day, and He created all in six and rested the seventh.
      So… Where did they come from, if not from God?

      One supporting theory is that angels created a race of humans prior to God’s creation. Not only is this not biblically supported, but there is no evidence that angels have the ability to create at all! They are created beings in and of themselves, and so do not have the capacity for spontaneous creation.

      Another idea comes from ancient Jewish mystic lore, and says that God gave Adam a bride prior to Eve- Lilith, a fallen angel in some stories, a heavenly angel in others, and just a differently created human in still others.
      No matter which way you go with this, there’s nothing plausible about the Lilith story. Firstly, after God said “Let us make man,” the narrative goes on to say, “so God created man, male and female made He them both.” Some say this is proof of Lilith’s creation, but wait! Not long after, God states that it is not good for man to be alone. How could that be so, if there was already a bride given him?
      Secondly, God does not change- So if angels taking wives prior to Noah were abominable to God in that day, there is no possible way that He would give Adam an angelic bride… Fallen or no.

      We could continue, but the point is simply this: There were no other peoples that Cain fled to. The land of Nod was named so for Cain, and it was he who built the first city there. He brought his wife with him, and it was only after they arrived in the land that would bear his moniker that she bore a son, Cain’s firstborn.

  20. Hi B&E, thank you for all you share here on your site.

    I have a question about 2 Thessalonians 2:6-10:

    “And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

    Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.”

    This comes right after Paul is speaking about that day will not come until…

    Are these scriptures speaking of the Holy Spirit being the One Who restrains? And if so, is Paul saying that the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way ( Who dwells in the believer’s of Jesus Christ) and then come upon people like He did in the Old Testament? The Age of Grace having coming to an end?

    Who do you understand Paul to be speaking of here?

    I hope I’m not jumping ahead and appreciate hearing your thoughts on this.

    Thank you!

    • Hi Julia,

      Thanks for your comments. This is an excellent question. To grasp the context of the answer to this question let’s go back a couple of verses:

      “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
      4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

      7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

      I highlighted parts of verses 4 and 5 to capture the context of verse 6. Paul is reminding the Thessalonians that he had previously explained to them that the Antichrist will sit in the temple of God and proclaim himself to be god. This would clearly have to take place in Jerusalem, Israel. From Scripture we know that the nations of the world were divided among the angelic host to have princely authority over.

      “Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask your father, and he will show you; your elders, and they will tell you. When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD’S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.” (Deuteronomy 32:7-9).

      The Septuagint properly translates verse 8 as “he set the bounds of the people according to the angels of God.” When the nations were divided after the tower of babel, Israel nor the “sons of Israel” even existed yet. So the nations were divided and given over the angels. This is confirmed in Deuteronomy 4:19:

      “And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven [angels], shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.”

      So now we can know that the “gentile world” is under temporary rulership of angelic beings. This is why God chose to make His own nation, Israel, from one man, Abraham. Thus the passage above saying “for the Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.” Israel is literally the one area of Earth God said He is going to have dominion over during this fallen age. Hence God repeatedly calling Israel “my land”, “my holy mountain” or “mind inheritance.” And The Lord appointed an archangel to protect Israel, Michael. in the book of Daniel this is clearly confirmed:

      “And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands. 11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
      12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia…Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. 21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.”

      This is an amazing passage that deserves a great deal of exposition, but for time’s sake I am going to be brief. Daniel spoke with an angel who was literally fighting with the evil angelic prince of the nation of Persia. In this account, the angel explains that Michael is the holy angel assigned to Israel. He is literally protecting it from fallen angelic forces. In the end times, Michael will leave his protective post to go to Heaven: “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.” (Revelation 12). It is at this point, that Israel no longer has its spiritual protector. And this is also the point when Satan is sent to Earth and permanently kicked out of Heaven. AND it is also the point when the Beast spirit that will indwell the Antichrist emerges from the abyss or “bottomless” pit. Thus the son of perdition, whose power is after the working of Satan, is now here and can attack Israel, because the restrainer has left it. It is Michael who is the restrainer of this onslaught. but once he is moved out of the way, it begins.

      This is also confirmed in Daniel 12 (and keep in mind that Daniel is basically the “Revelation” of the Old testament): “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.” The term “stand up” in that verse can mean “takes one’s station.” It is this author’s belief this is describing the war in Heaven. And once Michael takes his stand in that Heavenly battle, the Earth and particularly Israel, is in trouble because Satan has now been cast down. Hence there being unprecedented trouble.

      Hope that helps. And we will cover this is more detail as we go through Revelation and get to chapter 12 (our next article will deal with Chapter 7 and the 144,000). So yes, you were skipping ahead! But it’s more than okay. lol. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask. God bless you abundantly.

  21. Very interesting article. I always enjoy reading about end-time prophecy. However, I was disappointed and a bit turned away from this article after I read that you believe the Great Tribulation and God’s wrath being poured out on the wicked are one and the same event. After more than a decade of studying end-time prophecy, it seems to me the Bible clearly reveals that the Tribulation period is brought on by man, primarily the anti-christ, and God’s wrath being poured out is a later, separate, and much more horrendous event. Jesus clearly said AFTER those days of tribulation He (the Son of man) will appear; which makes me wonder how or why any Bible studying Christian would believe in a pre-trib rapture. It’s a nice thought and all, but we were told we’d be persecuted. The disciples died for their beliefs, and Jesus, our Lord, died for His claims. As He said, no servant is above his Master, they hated Him, they will hate us also; they murdered Him, and they will do the same to many believers before Jesus’ return., which is also clearly shown in the Book of Revelation (Rev. 20:4).

    • HI inCite,

      Mathew 24:29 has become a lightning rod verse to build entire eschatological views upon. But it also happens to be in one of the most difficult chapters to divide in the Bible. It is this author’s belief that the “tribulation” referred to in that verse is the persecution and suffering Christians endure through the entire church age. “Tribulation” is not a proper noun in Scripture. It’s a common noun. So rather than referring to an “end times” event, it is referring to general suffering Christians will go through in “those days”, i.e., the church age.

      The “great tribulation” is an and times event, much more commonly known as the Day of The Lord in Scripture. I encourage you to read our article on the Day of The Lord to see that this is a far more solid Biblical term when referring to the end times as it is used repeatedly in Scripture and its description lines up time and time again with the judgments we see being poured out by God in the book of Revelation.


      https://beginningandend.com/day-lord-event-starts-world/

    • Wow, that’s a very interesting observation from OT passages that you are bringing out, about Michael being the one and only Divinely driven spiritual leader of this world, and being directly in charge of Israel. That reminds me of the NT passage where the Apostle Paul states: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Ephesians 6:12 (KJV). In light of the OT references, this passage now takes on a new and additional meaning. Thanks for the enlightenment B&E. As usual, you provide ample Scriptural evidence for your view. Keep up the good work of at least attempting to “rightly divide the Word” 🙂

      • You’re very welcome Dave. Glory to God and our Lord Jesus Christ. The verse from Ephesians fits in perfectly with this discussion. The Apostle Paul is giving a glimpse into the hierarchy and ranks of the fallen angelic beings who oppose us.

  22. “The Rapture Precedes The Revealing of The Antichrist”

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? – 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5.

    Guys, let’s be frank here. I’ll speak my mind as if I had a chance to stand up for the scriptures. After that whole teaching you came to the conclusion that the rapture precedes the revealing of the antichrist. The verse from Thessalonians doesn’t say this. What does it say? Read it. Either accept it, or don’t (at your own peril) but your “conclusion” is contrary to the verse you’re trying to disprove. lol

    • At the beginning you even highlighted the portion of the verse you wished to teach on. What does it say? Why is your conclusion contrary to what the scripture states?

    • Hi Jason,

      Thanks for your comments. The article represents our best efforts to rightly divide Scripture. In your comments you wrote “2 Thessalonians 2:1-5” but only quoted the passage starting in verse 3. And it is my contention that this is precisely what has led to the common interpretation of this passage, as it ignores the context and grammatical subject from verse 2. If you would like to show a different interpretation please provide it. I’d be happy to read your interpretation of the passage. We are always open to Biblical correction so please feel free to share. God bless.

      • Hey B&E,

        Ok, so let’s simply look at II Thess. 2:3-4.

        3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

        What must take place before christ returns? Simply read this passage. Paul tells us plainly that christ will not come until the falling away AND that man of sin be revealed (the anti christ). Does it not plainly state this? Therefore, since it is plainly stated, there cannot be a pre-trib rapture bc the anti christ doesn’t show himself until midway through the tribulation. You cannot disprove this passage. I see the attempt made in this teaching, but by doing so at the end you conclude the rapture occurs BEFORE this. YOUR conclusion is in contradiction with this plainly written passage.

  23. Hey, I have a question, if we aren’t here once the antichrist is revealed, hen why are we warned against taking the mark of the beast? Why are we told towards the end of Revelation that those who didn’t worship the beast and get the mark, that were beheaded would live and reign a thousand years with Christ, it’s in Revelation 20? I mean I don’t know when the rapture will happen and I just want to know what’s right. These are just some things that don’t make sense to me with the pre-trib view…Thank you.

    • Hi Paige,

      This is a great question. There will be Christians who come to a saving faith in Christ during the Great Tribulation. At the time of Revelation 14 (when the warning about taking the mark is proclaimed to the world), the Great Tribulation is well underway. The Antichrist has just assumed global control for the final 3 1/2 years (Rev 13). The Mark of the Beast is now instituted. The warnings of Revelation 14 are for the people on Earth years after the Rapture. They are being told supernaturally (so there is no question that the message is from Heaven) the clear consequences of taking the Mark:

      ” And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

      This is a time in Scripture we refer to as The Great Purging. The life of a Christian will be one marked by certain death. Refusal to worship the Antichrist will lead to beheading. This is a very unique time in human history, hence God sending angels to speak directly and openly to all people on the Earth. So I think the answer to your question is that the angel, in this passage is not speaking to “us” – born again Christians living today. That message is for the people on Earth during this horrific time of God’s wrath.

      These saints who do come to Christ at this time, even to the point of being killed for their faith will of course be a part of the Millennial Kingdom. They are resurrected before Jesus AFTER ARMAGEDDON. This is very important. Just carefully consider the chronology:

      ” And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.” – Revelation 20:1-5.

      in Revelation 19, Jesus wins the battle of Armageddon. This is whent he Raptured church returns with Jesus. We will have already been in Heaven by the time of Armageddon and return WITH JESUS THE LORD.

      Jude 1:14 Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

      When Jesus returns to Earth to defeat the Antichrist and reclaim the Earth for His rule, you will be coming here with Him. The saints who are martyred during the 7 years Christ is in Heaven with His bride, will be resurrected at the start of the Millennial Kingdom (Rev 20) so they too can partake in Christ’s righteous reign.

      I hope that clears things up. We are going to continue to go through Revelation chapter by chapter so I hope you will continue to read and provide your input. The article on the 144,000 will be posted this week. If you have any more questions in the interim please feel free to ask. God bless.

  25. What I see in this pre-tribulation rapture is an end-time church that wants everything nice and easy, no persecution; persecution has always been the case with the church of Christ. A church that will not stand for Christ, a church that wants peace any at any cost, all teaching that tells the disciple that if they only believe that this life will be a bed of roses and God wants all them to be rich, of Couse this type of teaching would be very popular with this weak of faith end time church.

    With the mind-set of this Laodicean end-time church it is easy to take scripture out of its context put a little twist to it as long as it tell this church that it will never have to suffer pain or poverty for the sake of the Lord, all will flock to that church or teacher. From the very beginning the Lord’s people have suffered at the hands of Satan even as the Lord in the flesh also suffered. This Loadicean church is weak kneed, looking for the easy way out in everything pertaining to the things of the Lord.

    Does this end-time church think it’s better than other periods of the church which were beheaded, set on fire and used as night light by the beast, crucified up-side down, and the Lord nailed to a tree for the sake of the gospel? Yet this end-time church think it’s so privileged that will suffer nothing for Christ. The rapture is at the last trumpet after the anti-Christ is revealed!

    • Hi Roy,

      I appreciate your zeal for The Lord and thanks for your comments. Please know that the article was not written out of a desire to try and “have it easy” or unwillingness to suffer for the precious name of The Lord. It was written out of a desire to rightly divide Scripture. And the conclusion that this author has reached based on Scripture is that the Rapture indeed takes place before the great Tribulation.

      You say that the rapture occurs at the last trumpet. Where in Scripture do you see the Rapture actually happen? What Scriptures show us the raptured church? I welcome your commentary on this question. God bless.

      • Hi B&E, as I understand this word rapture it simply means that the Lord at some point returns to receive His people to take them to one of the many mansions. It is obvious that the Lord must remove His people from this earth for a period after the Great Tribulation and before the New Earth descends from heaven because this earth will be in such a terrible state after the tribulation that it will be unfit for human life. The reason I did not do much scripture quoting is because we who have left the milk of the word and supposed to be on the meat of the word should know that these verses of scripture are there, but I will bring out a few verses of scriptures to show what I believe to be instances of rapture:

        “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.” [Hebrew 11:5]

        Now this verse of scripture to me is evidence of a righteous man being caught-up to God, but this is God showing that He is God in that even though He laid down the rule that all must die and be resurrected to enter the kingdom. Now God being God only He can alter that rule when it’s for His divine purpose. The Lord says, with God all things are possible. Even though God suspended his law for that one righteous man, the righteous man Noah had to go through flood and come out on the other side of it. We know that all others, including the Son of God must pass through death and come out on the other side.

        So even though that one man was rapture by the Lord, this is not the norm, many people will take this one verse of scripture and build a whole new doctrine around it to say that all will be rapture at a certain point. When one pleases God, there’s no limit to how far God might take him or her, it’s called miracle! Another place in scripture is Elijah being raptured. What we need to take notice of again is that the law was suspended for one person, all the rest of the righteous in that time still had to go the way of death.

        Another place in scripture where there’s rapture is with the two witness of Revelation 4:1:
        The open door is a picture of the “Come Up Hither”. “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter”
        Here is another case of a servant of God being called up not to avoid tribulation, but to prepare for combat and to ready the saints of God for that combat. So this raptured saint of God had to return to this earth. Again this is one man being raptured for a particular purpose to do a particular job, notice the Lord did not call all the disciples up, just that one. St. Paul was summoned to the Third Heaven, it was for a particular purpose to come back and serve a special job, not to run from the beast, but to equip the saints to better stand against the beast, but we see that Paul had to return and do battle with the beast.

        Jesus said, if I go I will come again to take you unto Myself, that where I AM, there you may be also, to me this is speaking of the rapture. So there is evidence of rapture throughout scripture, in Revelation there are the two witnesses who are resurrected who many twist to mean the church and the Jewish temple, I find no such thing in scripture, I believe it’s just another case of God calling His servants up for further instruction. Notice it says nothing about taking the whole church out of harm’s way. But even if this represents the church, look at when this rapture takes place, it’s not before the tribulation period, it during this period, in fact it is the beast of the tribulation that kills them. So if it is the Church of Christ that is raptured at this point it is well into the tribulation.

        I was one, who believed that the church would be raptured before the Great tribulation; this is what I wanted to believe with all my heart just in case I would still be here for the tribulation. Again I believe this pre-tribulation rapture, if wrong can lead people become too relaxed believing that no matter what God will come for them before this Great War. To me this is just teaching for the etching ears of an end-time church that thing they’ve got it going on and is in need of nothing.

        I believe to get this timing wrong can be detrimental to the soul; I believe there will be a false rapture of men by UFO’s. I believe it was in one your pages where you showed a poll that asked if a UFO would make contact today how many people would go with them without any guarantee of safe return, the result were stunning. The great number of people who said they would take this trip on these hellish ships were amazing. I do believe that Lucifer [Satan] will stage his own rapture and is now setting the world up for this event.

        I’m not here just to win an argument, but like you, I’m trying to understand the timing of this great event and not find myself in a satanic rapture in which this world is being set-up for. The to do this is to not change the word of God to make it fit a doctrine that might calm my fears, but to make sure I know what thus said the Lord.

        “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, [when will this gathering take place, it’s immediately after the tribulation!] And they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other”. [Matt 24:31]

        Very interesting discussion,

        May God be with you!

        • Hi Roy,

          Thanks for your response. I want to address a few of your points:

          1) Enoch – You said God has made a law that: “that all must die and be resurrected to enter the kingdom”, and presumably, Enoch was a special exception to this “law”. Where are you getting this from? 1 Thessalonians 4, the clearest description of the Rapture in Scripture, specifically says that believers alive at that moment will not die:

          For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. – 1 Thessalonians 4.

          Paul makes this same point discussing the translation in 1 Corinthians 15:

          Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

          So it seems clear that a person does not have to die to enter Heaven. And as you correctly pointed out, Enoch and Elijah are prime examples of this.

          2) The Two Witnesses – I believe the two witnesses are two individual men, and not symbolic of any group (the church, Israel, etc.).

          3) Satanic False Rapture – Where is the Scripture that supports the idea of a “satanic rapture”? I am not sure where in The Word you are getting this notion from.

          4) Matthew 24:31 – I assume you believe this verse is describing the Rapture. let’s look at it closely:

          And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

          Compare that verse with the passage from 1 Thessalonians 4 above. I would submit that they are not the same event at all. 1 Thessalonians 4 specifically says The Lord “HIMSELF” will descend from Heaven to meet us in the clouds. Our Lord does not send His Angels to do this task for Him. Additionally, 1 Thess 4 says that we will be “caught up” in the clouds after the dead in Christ rise, to meet Jesus in the air. Matthew 24:31 does not say any of this. I think based on a direct comparison, these are not the same events. Just something to consider. Thanks again for sharing your perspective and thank you for acknowledging that our mutual goal is to rightly divide The Word and grow in the knowledge of our Lord, Savior and Coming King Jesus Christ. God bless you abundantly.

          • Hi B&E, I thought it was understood that this sinful physical body cannot inherited the Kingdom of heaven, there is the shedding of this body before we meet the Lord in the air. Scripture says we shall not all sleep, but would be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, that change is the death of the old body, it’s the death of the old body. The Lord said it is appointed once unto men to die, and then the judgment, this death and resurrection happens so quickly it goes unnoticed.

            I think the point you are missing is the point that “we will not all sleep” death and resurrection of the body is a transformation, the same transformation that happens to those who are alive when the Lord returns. In one the dead body lays asleep in the heart of the earth awaiting its transformation while for the other the transformation is instantaneously. Sin must die, the wages of sin is death, sin cannot enter heaven and these bodies of ours are full of sin. I too believe the two witnesses to be prophets of the Lord, but there’s a growing popularity with the teaching of the pre-tribulation camp that they represents the church.

            As far as the satanic rapture goes, the Lord said “as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be for the coming of the Son of man” so now we must go back and check out the days of Noah to see what was so bad that the Lord had to destroy all mankind except those in the Arc. Not only did God destroy that creation, He also gave the command to the Israel to kill every single person [including babies]in the land they were to take procession of, surely the just God we serve would not be unjust to innocent helpless ones, or maybe they weren’t so innocent after all.

            What we know of the days of Noah is that beings from somewhere out in space left their rightful abode and came to earth and had sex with the daughters of men and produced a hybrid devil race called the Nephilims, in time these Nephilims were worshiped as gods. It is this seed of man mixing with the seed of those beings who left their rightful abode that caused the world’s destruction. As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be for the coming of the Son of man! “The Nephilims were in the earth in those days and after” [Genesis, Jesus the Christ].

            Now scripture clearly states that the Nephilims were in the earth before the flood and after, now if all the Nephilims were destroyed in the flood along with all their seeds, how could they appear after the flood? The Lord condemned these physical beings for invading earth and locked them down in deep darkness so that they want alter creation again. So for this reason I don’t believe that this end-time manifestation of constant reports of flying saucers are from outside our solar system, but from the abyss, the Lord said demons would be let out of the abyss in the end-time.

            Since invaders are not allowed to invade earth again and have sex with the women of earth, their seeds must be mixed with mankind in some other way. Even Daniel prophesied that in the end-time an ungodly devil seed would alter the genetic make-up of man, “as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be for the coming of the Son of man” [Jesus!]:

            “And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
            And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.” [Daniel 2:42-43]

            Notice that Daniel says “they” shall mingle “themselves” with the seed of men! “They” and “themselves” would have to be something other than the seeds of man to mingle “themselves” with the seeds of men. “As in the days of Noah so shall it for the coming of the Son of man” since these devils is no longer allowed to mate with women they must now come up with a way to mingle their seeds with the seeds of men. There are many reports of these beings of the UFOs abducting people, taking them aboard the ships and having great concern with their reproductive organs.

            They take sperm from men and eggs from women, in this process that are somehow mingling their seeds with the seeds of men, just as Daniel said and the Lord forewarned. This is scripture, the seed of man will be altered “just as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be for the coming of the Son of man” this mingling of “themselves” with the seed of men is happening now!

            Many people are begging these devils to stop by and give them a ride on their rapturing machines, and this desire will grow as we move closer to the end! They [the Nephilims were here before the flood and after!!!

      • The ones who are expecting to be raptured is the end-time church, the church which Jesus said He would spit out of His mouth. This end-time church has let all kinds of false doctrines into it, this end-time church is corrupted, and this church really needs purging. If ever there was a church that is not ready to meet the Lord in the air, it’s this end-time church. This church is the most deceived churches of all the church ages, in this church are Cabbalist, Luciferian Masons, Catholics who calls up the dead and even prays to them to do for them what they cannot do for themselves.

        These have all united to form what is now called the church that made God puke, this church love the life of easy living, the church of don’t make waves, let’s all just get along. It doesn’t matter to this church if the preacher teaches another gospel as long as there’s peace [I’m not saying that B&E is preaching another gospel] just as long as there is peace in the church all is alright. In this church there are people like Mr. Olsteen who pastors the largest congregation in the USA, this pastor says he doesn’t preach on sin because no one to hear that kind of preaching, besides, he doesn’t like to dwell on the negative.

        These are the churches that are full to over flowing on Sunday mornings, in these churches are taught Eastern Meditation, hypnotism, etc.… all the things that God called an abomination, this church embraces, this church is not ready to meet the Lord in the air. Many in this church are only going to come to the Lord after much tribulation, for them the great tribulation is the best thing to happen to them. To me this pre-tribulation rapture goes hand and hand with the rest of the soft teaching that God want all to be rich and have a life of ease, and blessed above all. This church says I see, but the Lord says they are blind, in this church that is expected to be raptured before the trouble starts are some of the file thing taking place.

        This church Jesus called the Synagogue of Satan, [and it’s not just the Catholic Church] its apostate Christianity. This churches main bible version [The NIV] is one that is removing the Name of Jesus little by little from their pages: THE NIV BIBLE STRIKES THE NAME OF JESUS FROM THEIR VERSION this church that is expecting to be raptured before the trouble starts is lukewarm, it doesn’t care about false doctrines it just wants to hear what makes it feels good.
        Here’s what I see happening with many in this church if they are not careful in what they choose to believe. If there’s to be a satanic rapture, it must come before the true rapture to fool the world into believing that the Lord has come. The UFO’s are what many believe to be our creators and group are growing larger every day; many in the church are coming to believe this of the many websites who are claiming that God drives a UFO. So many of these believers in the gods of UFOs are going to be begging their gods to take them home with them:

        As the deceived party and talk of all the wisdom and knowledge they are about to gain from this trip to the stars, they are in for a big surprise. As the ship reaches the outer-most planet of our solar system, it swings around the planet and heads back toward earth. The deceived begins to worry; there is something wrong with this picture, as the ship approaches earth it heads straight for the Atlantic Ocean. As the ship plunges into the blackness of the abyss the panic sets in, gone are the beautiful different color lights that once captured their imagination. As they try to look out the windows they find there is nothing but blackness.

        After much screaming and crying, they spot a little white light far into the distance, this spot of light in the distance they believe to be the portals to their god’s world. They are right, this is the portal to their god’s world, but it’s not the beautiful paradise like place they were led to believe. As they approaches the portal the light gets brighter and brighter and they become happier and happier and the party resumes. As they, the deceived, continue their party they notice a discomfort, it seems the ship is getting hotter and hotter. The deceived began to complain that the heat is becoming unbearable, isn’t this supposed to be the chariot of our gods? This chariot of the gods surely would not have air-conditioning problems.

        As the ship gets closer to the portals of their god’s world, the light lights up the waters around them, for first the time they are now able to see out-side the ship, the first thing they notice is that the ocean waters are boiling. By this time the deceived began to realize that something is not right, but nothing could prepare for what comes next. As the worry began to truly set in there comes a voice over the intercom system, Attention: you fools, you slimy dogs [this is truly how their lord Lucifer see them] this is no cruise ship to the stars, this is a one-way cruise to the abyss, WELCOME TO HELL, YOU FILTHY BUNCH OF PIGS!!!

        The light they saw in the distance was in the end the lake of fire, it was like boarding a rocket from earth and riding straight into the sun! THIS IS THE FALSE RAPTURE OF THE COSMIC CHRIST, LUCIFER, SATAN, THE GRADON, THE SNAKE!

        Make sure you don’t find yourself in the wrong rapture, this church is not ready to meet the Lord in the air, this church needs a great tribulation to wake it up!!!

          • Hi Sheila thanks for the encouragement. I like anyone else am afraid of the power of this beast that is already in the earth. If I said I wasn’t I’d be lying, but I can’t let that fear cause me to change the word of God to ease those fears. I believe that no matter what, through it all He will be with me even unto the end of the world because He promised and He doesn’t break His promises.

            He told us to stand in the face of this beast even unto death and He would give us the crown of life. If everyone is gone to heaven who will stand for the Lord in the face of the beast? If all are gone, what church is the beast to turn his rage on? I don’t understand how Lucifer could stage a counterfeit coming of Christ without a counterfeit rapture. How in the world is he going to convince the world that he is the Christ if he doesn’t do the things that Christ is expected to do when he come.

            This teaching of God taking this end-time church, this church that think it’s so privileged is a church that He said He would spew out of his mouth, this is prophecy being fulfilled. This church thinks it got it going on and in need of nothing. This church says I see, but Lord said they are blind and have inching ears and would flock to those who are telling what they want to hear, prophesying peace and safety when sudden destruction is ahead.

            This is that church that thinks it’s in need of nothing because God is going to snack them away before the trouble starts. Yea’ this is that churches that thing it’s in need of nothing, the worst week-kneed cowardly church of all the church ages. But it thinks it’s got it going on!

            • I think, rather I know, you have a fundamental and total misconception of what the Church is. At any given time, every church as every Christian is showing plus or minus signs of all the seven churches described in the beginning of Revelation.

              Your problem with your rapture theory lies way deeper than pre-post trib discussion.

              Your attitude is incredibly wrong and definitely not bearing any fruit.

          • First of all,

            We don’t get silent when in comes to the church persecution around the world. On the other, that reveals me why you don’t want the rapture to happen before the end.

            1- The obvious would be that you want to see it being accomplished.
            2- Most importantly, you think that is not fair for the previous persecuted christians that the Church is spared cowardly from the tribulation.

            Well that is when someone focus only on the persecuted Christians. I’m sure that for each persecuted christian (died from persecution) at least ten if not a hundred died of peaceful old age or from an accident or sickness. How does the Church being rapture has to do with a fear of being persecuted. You think you’re more brave to believe in mid-post trib rapture?

            Second, Jesus being scared had nothing to to with his fear of the crucifixion. He was coming for that and wasn’t a coward. He stood up to everybody including the devil himself (which no one has been able to) during his ministry and fulfilled every prophecies regarding his coming. The only thing He could have been scared of his of dying before fulfilling his purpose on the cross. At the time of his praying, God was putting on him the burden of all humanity’s sins on him. He even bled through his eyes for that was unbearable. With all those sins, he was also experiencing for the first time what sinners should always experience, the Lost of our relationship with God.

            Third, the analysis of Rev 6:17 is completely wrong. You’re answering God’s question with your desired answer. Ever heard of rhetorical question? This means that no one shall stand. Now, in the light of the context which you totally ignore, saints are not mentioned anywhere. That’s usually how mid-post trib believers analyze the bible with single verse taken out of context.

            Forth, on the opposite, the mid-post trib do not fit with the rest of the Bible by definition analogies and straight flat out prophecies about Jacob’s trouble.
            – Study the Jewish wedding
            – Study the Laws of first fruit among others
            – The 10 virgins
            The Bible is all linked together and all point to a rapture.

            Fifth, Paul is definitely waiting for the rapture knowing that he was not in the tribulation.

            Sixth, If the Holy Spirit made a mistake in the Bible about Paul’s teaching or the 70 weeks of Daniel and most of the prophets, well the entire Bible is false.

            More to come have to work.

  26. 2 Thessalonians 2 seems to confirm Daniel 12, where after “…at the time of the end, the king of the south will attack the king of the north” (Dan 11:40), then at Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael, the archangel who stands guard over your nation, will arise. Then there will be a time of anguish greater than any since nations first came into existence. But at that time every one of your people whose name is written in the book will be rescued”, and then goes on to describe the rapture as discussed ad nauseam.

    • True. This passage is another reason that the theory of Michael being the restrainer (a theory I’ve heard before) doesn’t really hold water. I’m always open to evidence of the theory, but so far I’ve seen no convincing arguments.

    • Hi Stu,

      Thanks very much for your comments. There are some great discussions taking place in this thread. I wanted to throw my in my thoughts on Daniel 12:

      And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

      I believe verse 1 is discussing the deliverance of the remnant beleiving nation of Israel (hence the angel telling Daniel “thy people shall be delivered..” in the Great Tribulation (these believers will receive supernatural protection during the reign of the Antichrist.

      Verse 2 is discussing the Resurrection of the Just and Great White throne judgment. This is detailed in Revelation 20:

      And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
      …And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

      These two resurrections, fit what the angel is telling Daniel. At the Rapture, no one is resurrected to “shame and contempt.” Only dead members of the Church are resurrected, not unbelievers. So this passage cannot be describing the Rapture. But the resurrection of the just and unjust we see both groups, believers and sinners resurrected (albeit at different ends of the Millennium).

  27. I agree with you that the restrainer is MIchael. Let me tell you why. It comes from Dan 12:1.

    Let me translate it more literally using King James, “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:” NIV translates “stand up” as “protects” which is correct but literally it is stand up. The Hebrew is amad which occurs twice in this verse. However one of them is “amad al” which means “stand over” i.e. protect. The other one is not “amad al.” Does it mean something totally different?

    Interestingly, the word amad can mean stop.

    For example when Johah is cast into the sea the waves stopped, literally stood, amad. Johan 1:15.

    Another example, Joshua 10:13″And the sun stood still and the moon halted (amad).”

    Suppose we translate amad as stop in Dan 12:1. Then it says, “At that time Michael , the great prince who protects your people, will stop.” I.e. he will stop standing guard.

    This makes excellent sense! Dan 12:2 says “There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.” If Michael is standing guard then he is doing a lousy job! However if he has stopped standing guard, that explains why there is such a time of distress. Michael is the restrainer who is taken out of the way.

  28. B&E, I think it’s interesting how many post trib rapture enthusiasts there are and how passionately they insist on going through it. The main thrust of it seems based on this notion that those who aren’t raptured will be demoralized and bitter. This notion of demoralization is so central that now there’s a doctrine of the “false rapture,” which will take place before the tribulation to fool the believers into feeling abandoned and to surrender to the will of the Antichrist. [smacks head]

  29. It’s alright to be afraid of going through the tribulation period, it just show that you are human. Even the Lord himself in the flesh prayed three times for the Father to remove his cup of tribulation. When Jesus realized he would have to taste this bitter cup, he said not my will but thou will be done. No matter how afraid one is of going through the tribulation that gives no right to change the word of God to calm the fears of someone who are not even going to be alive when all this takes place.

    It is this fear in the heart of the Christian that’s allowing all the false doctrines being taught in the apostate churches. It is this fear in the church that calls for peace at any cost in the church; it is this fear of poverty that causes the prosperity preachers to be able to pack their churches on Sundays. It is this kind of fear that causes the Church of Christ to not stand against beast today.

    Now if I’m wrong about the timing of the rapture, then I’ve lost nothing I’ll be raptured before all hell breaks loose. But, if I’m right then this can be the difference between heaven and hell for those who are wrong. If there is to be a satanic rapture [I can see no way of staging a counterfeit second coming without a counterfeit rapture] then those who teach this pre-trib rapture no only lead themselves to hell, but causes many to hop aboard a bullet train to hell, all because of fear.

    There was never a time when Church of Christ was ever spared tribulation, what about the Christians that are being beheaded and set aflame now in Muslim Countries? Why aren’t they raptured? These people give their very lives for the sake of the gospel; they give all for Christ while the weak-kneed western Christians run and hide. The only reason the western churches are not persecuted is because they were taught by self-appointed preachers that they deserve to be wealthy, that they deserve to have the best of everything.

    The reason this end-time church believe it to be so privileged is because of the false teachers who tell them what they want to hear. All this soft teaching goes against scripture, get rich and live the life of luxury; Job got rich, but still faced his tribulations. The Son of God was known as a man of sorrow, this Son of God asked His Father from the cross, why has thou forsaken me? This Son of God dies of a broken heart, because for the first time throughout all eternality HIS Father turned His face away from him, the Son die of a broken heart!

    Go back and read your bible again, all warriors of Christ suffer, this is war, the warrior doesn’t run and hid when the enemy attacks, he stands in the name of the Lord. Most saints will enter heaven broken and beheaded, but the western saint plans to enter heaven with his uniform unstained from blood, no battle scars, just a life of luxury while others gave their lives. The Lord said “the coward and unbeliever have no part in His kingdom!!!

    • Um, Hi Roy!

      I think most of us probably live by the adage of, hope for the best but prepare for the worst. The best, in my view, would not include the events described in Revelation regarding the Tribulation. I don’t see the point in dying a martyrs death just so I can impress Jesus and feel good about my Christianity. Call me crazy, but I kind of prefer Patton’s philosophy, that winning a war is not accomplished by going out and dying for one’s country. The object is to make the enemy die for his.

      Since when is Heaven only accessible to those who “earn it”? I must’ve overlooked that in Scripture. Christ did all the work, we inherit His merit when we proclaim Him as Lord and surrender our lives to Him. What we do after, according to His purpose, also surrenders all credit to His Spirit.

      But if strapping a bomb on your chest and blowing yourself up for God sounds like sound doctrine, I suggest you might want to serve Allah, not Jehovah. Just sayin.

      • Hi Q, you just stated my whole case for me, I have been saying all along that its fear that is making weak Christian welcome such an unsound doctrine. Who wants to die a martyr’s death, I’m sure I don’t, I would like to die an old who fell asleep one night and didn’t wake the next day. I’m sure Jesus didn’t want to die a martyr’s death, he even expressed as much in his prayer to the Father to take this cup from Him if possible.

        Do you think Peter wanted to be crucified up-side down? Do you think all the people who were set aflame by the Church of Rome wanted to die? You came right out and admitted it; it’s your fear of dying or suffering for the sake of the gospel. Do you believe that by Peter being crucified up-side down earned his way into heaven? If Christ did all the works and nothing left for us to do, why would James say faith without works are dead?

        Again that is the philosophy of a church that want none of the responsibility and all the reward, a church built on easy living and riches, do nothing and gain everything. Pre-tribers think by keep telling themselves that they will be raptured before the big showdown that that will make it true. I was one who believed in the pre-trib rapture until I let the word of God interpret the word. Its fear and fear only that’s got so many twisting the word to say something it never intended to. You have admitted its your fear and nothing but the fear that’s got you clinking to such an unsound doctrine!

      • Roy, the works come out of faith, the faith is evident by works. The context of faith here is synonymous with belief. The devils and demons believe, but they reject God as Lord. Therefore, their works are ungodly. The context is that of accepting the Lordship of Christ as the mediator and cleanser of sin who turns our filthy rags into righteousness. The righteousness of God will emanate in the form of godly works, godly behavior. The fruits of the Spirit. How can you tell if someone might be a Christian? By their behavior. And why is their behavior different than non-Christians? Because of Christ, and the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit. If God is within us, we will do His will because we allow Him to use us. But the credit goes to God, not man. “Our little systems have their day; they have their day and cease to be. For merit moves from man to man, and not from man, O Lord, to thee.”

        • Q, If we play no role in our salvation, why would God tell us to work out our own salvation with trembling and fear? If God alone determines whether or not we go to hell and burn eternally [which is not a bible doctrine] and not our good or bad be heaver, then you would have to say that God created that person just so He could torment him forever! That doesn’t sound like a loving Father to me! If we play no part in our salvation, why would Moses tell the people “you choose this day whom you will serve” the choice is ours, we play a role in our salvation.

          If we didn’t play a role in our salvation why would the Lord say we will be accurse or excursed by our very own mouths? If we didn’t play a role in our salvation why would Jesus say if you believe and is Baptist you will then be saved. Yes, we play a major role in our salvation or all the other verse of scripture must be thrown out. Throughout this we see men constantly making decisions regarding their salvation. If we play no part in our salvation why would the Lord warn people of committing the unforgettable of blasphemy, it’s because all of these decisions are very important to salvation.

          To say that men play no part in there is the same as saying, God made this one to glory and that one to burn in hell throughout all eternality. Why would a God of love create someone just so He can torment them forever? If God tell us, this day you choose whom you will serve, the person must have the ability to except the offer or reject it, how would God tell someone to choose when they don’t have the ability to do so. I don’t think god created some people just so he can have someone to torment forever, do you? Would God ask us to do all these things if we weren’t caperable of during them.

          According to scripture, anyone who finds themselves in hell have put themselves there, therefore, man must be responsible by his decisions to warrant hell. A person decide to spend her life as a prostitute never coming to the Lord, she has determine her faith by the decisions she made. Now how can you say that we play no role in our salvation? I believe the All mighty God can even chose to not know certain things, God say He can even chose to forget, He say once we come to Him and are washed in the bold of the Lamb, He will for all our sins, God said He will forget them!

          We must remember, God created one man and one woman who was intended to live forever in a physical body, there was to be no death. All others besides the original pair are the creation of their parents, including all their sins and defects, procreation. The problem started when man decided to be his own god and play by his own set of rules. It was man’s rules that decided his faith in the Garden of Eden; it is still man’s decision making that determines his salvation today.

          Anyone reads the bible and say that man plays no part in his or her salvation is reading his bible wrong, this is how people twist scripture to force an unbiblical interpretation of pre-trib rapture.

          • Ephesians 2:8-10 says, “8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”

            Not of works,…. Of any kind, moral or ceremonial, before or after conversion, done without faith or in it, nor of these in any sense; works are neither the moving causes, nor the procuring causes, nor the helping causes, nor “causa sine qua non”, or conditions of salvation; the best works that are done by men, are not done of themselves, but by the grace of God, and therefore can never merit at his hand: and salvation is put upon such a foot, lest any man should boast; of his works before God, and unto men; wherefore he has denied works any place in justification and salvation, in order to exclude all boasting in man; and has fixed it in a way of grace, and has chosen and called poor sinful worthless creatures to enjoy it, that whoever glories, may glory in the Lord.

            • Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
              Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

              Faith in Jesus is the work of God….. as you know but just to remind us, his commandments are….

              Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
              Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
              Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
              Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
              Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
              Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

              Faith ( in God) without works is dead ( works =Jesus ) he that has the Father has the Son, he that has not the Son, has not the Father……

              Our own works without real faith in Christ……

              Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
              Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
              Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

              Peace in Jesus…. I am going nowhere , I am not answering a call from the desert, I will just wait for the Lord to take me…..

      • “Beware of the Scribes” [Luke 20:46]

        Hi Q,

        God already warned of who it is we need to keep an eye on in the attack on the Word of God! It is the so-called learned men or the great theologians, [the scribes of our day]. It was the attack on God’s word from the very beginning where Lucifer had his most success in destroying the children of God. It’s the Word, both written and fleshly [Jesus] where Satan’s hatred truly lives; it was with this written word that the fleshly Word defeated Satan with when Jesus was driven into the wilderness to be tested. This “Word is powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword” the most powerful weapon of God that men are equipped with to stand against Lucifer.

        In any fight, the most important weapon of the enemy to take out is his most powerful weapon, if as the bible says, that the Word is this most potent weapon, than it just stand to reason that this Word would have all the forces of Satan arrayed against it. What is the most effected means of attack; it’s to call The Word into question. “Did God really say” or did God really say what they have put in the King James Bible? It was this attack on the Word that caused the fall of man and all creation. This mode of attack was very effective, why would the enemy stop using this most effective weapon?

        Now this Word has always been under attack by the enemy, but God would always protect His Word in the earth, and will continue to guard it. You can’t tell me that God cannot safeguard His Word in the world no matter how relentless the attack, that Word was preserved in England and delivered to the world to King James. The problem now is that there are so few true Christian solders that will stand and defend and protect this Word, though it will never be destroyed. There are many that claim some form of Christianity and Christ [The Cosmic Christ, Lucifer] but it is obviously not biblical Christianity. “Beware of the scribes!”

        This whole back and forth of what this bible says and that bible says, if for but one thing, and that’s confusion, designed by the author of confusion and his end-time scribes. This constant bombardment of never ending new, New Age Bibles, is the perfect plan of the master deceiver. Now ask you, are all these New Bibles clearing up anything? No, they are just adding confusion, pitting one bible against another thereby casting doubt on the whole word of God.

        “Beware of the Scribes”

        all these centuries the King Bible gave us the doctrine of salvation, all we needed to know to be saved. The Christian had no need to doubt, now with all these different bibles all contradicting each other, how can a person know which one they should believe? The King James Bible was the one God put in the hands of His Church when He rescued them from the Pope and his satanic bible.

        Now would God free His people from the corrupt and satanic bible of the Pope and turnaround and put a corrupt word in their hand? Why would God lead His people form one captivity to another? This whole thing is to destroy the King James Bible, while they slowly incorporate their Luciferian Bible. Little by little they are deleting they name of Jehovah and His Son Jesus from their versions. This is what this is all about; they couldn’t care less about when the rapture comes, their only concern is to enthrone their lord Lucifer. Do not be deceived!

        “Beware of the Scribes”

        You said I place an inordinate amount of value on man’s works, I disagree, I’m placing man in his proper place of responsibility. If God decided before the man is created that He would burn this one throughout eternal, what is the use of preaching the gospel and trying to win souls over to Christ if their faith was decided before they were born? The Lord says, come, let us reason together, don’t just read the bible, we must reason through it. You can’t just pick up the bible and read it like other books, it’s not like any other book, if you go to it with the wrong intentions [anything other than the truth] you will leave it in darkness.

        The Word knows your every thought; it knows your every intention even before you intend it. There’s only one sure way to find out what is true and false in this world of deception, and that’s to go to the Lord in prayer who promise to guide you in all things. Why do men preach this in all other things, but it comes to His Word they go to other sources when they themselves claim all knowledge rest in God. They are doing the same thing Adam did, he went to outside sources for knowledge, the wise [this fruit will make one wise, I shall be as the gods] just about all poster send each other to all the other bibles’ the imperfect works of man, no one send people to the Lord Himself about Himself!!!

        “BEWARE OF THE SCRIBES”
        [Luke 20:46]

        • The absolute LAST thing you want to do, Roy, is get me going on the KJV. I don’t have a problem with the version, but I have a MAJOR problem with the dimwitted, foolish and backwards individuals that comprise the majority of the KJV-Only camp.

          However, I can see why it would appeal to a fatalist such as yourself. Much like the rest of what you’ve presented, it is limiting- A doctrine for the lazy and slothful- Let alone without any biblical basis.

          • RETS, so just like that, you result to name calling, now that’s very Christian! I guess you know how that makes you look, right? You are making my case, as I said; the spirit behind your whole doctrine is one of confusion. I thought we would have a civil conversation without all that.

            My hope is that we can still have a discussion, because it’s not about us and how smart we are, but whether or not we change the Word , it’s about the Lord and His Word, instead of trying to cut each other up, let’s see if we can reason through the Word. I would like to hear from you why this makes you so angry.

          • Roy:
            RETS, so just like that, you result to name calling, now that’s very Christian! I guess you know how that makes you look, right? You are making my case, as I said; the spirit behind your whole doctrine is one of confusion. I thought we would have a civil conversation without all that.

            My hope is that we can still have a discussion, because it’s not about us and how smart we are, but whether or not we change the Word , it’s about the Lord and His Word, instead of trying to cut each other up, let’s see if we can reason through the Word. I would like to hear from you why this makes you so angry.

            Where am I name calling, Roy? I’m speaking from my own experience. The KJV Onlyists I’ve met have been backwards, dimwitted, and yes, foolish. Are you like that? Then I’m not calling names, I’m speaking the truth. Are you not like that? Then there is no offense to be taken, for I specifically stated that not all KJV Onlyists were that way.

            Or is it because I called you a fatalist? By definition and by your own words, you are exactly that- So how else should I describe you? “An individual predisposed to the inevitability of the intentional or semi-intentional destruction of the human race?” You clearly stated that some humans were created expressly for suffering!

            There is no “spirit of confusion” with the doctrine of pre-wrath rapture- The confusion, indeed the contradiction and invention, has always lain with post-tribulationism. That doctrine must invent a fake rapture just to explain the differences in the appearances of Christ; it must rewrite history by claiming that early church fathers all believed in it, whereas Darby invented pre-wrath and all other variations in the 1800’s; and it must completely discount certain statements by the Lord Himself ALL to simply be feasible.

            If you’d like a civil discourse, I’d gladly take you up on that, but I’d like to have an assurance from you that you will actually provide biblical, historical and exegetical evidence for each of your claims- Because believe me, I will be doing the same! The only thing is, I’d be presenting much of the same things BaE did here… And if you don’t grant that the time of day, how do I know our discourse will go anywhere?

            I do welcome your replies, and hold nothing against you personally- But I warn you that I have, and always will, come down cold and hard on theories, doctrines and theologies that have no foundation in truth. If my attacking these ideas are going to illicit the feelings of personal slight, please inform me now and let us simply agree to disagree!

    • What is the Lord’s main reason for returning to this earth, it to get His bride, to bring her to be with him, so if the return of Christ is to get his bride then according to the pre-tribbers Christians should be leaving this earth just prior to the return? Now if Lucifer is to stage a counterfeit second, how is he supposed to pull this off without first rapturing his church? According to your understanding of scripture, the rapture is to take place before the trouble starts. By the time of the Great tribulation, all Christians should be gone, so how could Satan convince Christians that he is the second coming unless there was first the rapture?

      To counterfeit the second coming means to counterfeit the whole thing; Lucifer is a very talented military leader, Satan know he must have his own rapture and is using the fear of the weak Christian to drive them into his satanic rapture. If Satan is to fool the world, he cannot let one thing get missed in this deception. Instead of people trying to run and hide, they should truly be trying to rightly divide the word in preparing others to stand and fight for the Lord, they teach them to run and hide, what kind of warrior is that. How can a teacher of the law say they can find no mention of a satanic rapture when the bible is clear the Satan will counterfeit the second coming of the Lord?

      Is Satan going to copy everything of the Lord, his miracle working power? His healing powers, his bringing peace to Jerusalem, all the great things the Lord promise to do, and yet fail to rapture his church, Lucifer is a much smarter general than that. The bible states plainly that there will be a satanic rapture, there’s no way for Lucifer to pull this off without first rapturing his church. It would be a very poor general to leave this very important part out of his planning, a very poor general indeed! Most people are going to miss the true rapture because of fear, and listening to those who always say what they want to hear.

      How can anyone who study scripture say they can find no mention of a counterfeit rapture, the bible is clear that Lucifer’s whole coming is a counterfeit? Would you counterfeit a dollar bill and leave old George’s bust form it, of cause not, and then it wouldn’t be a good counterfeit. Satan is to clever for that, how could he leave out the main reason the Christian to watch the heavens, looking for the Lord to rapture them. No, Satan is not that sloppy!

      We can try to go deeper into this to find the truth, or we can continue to throw same few verse of scriptures taken out of context, reshaped for the weak of faith to say something that is not what was intended. How could there be a counterfeit second coming without a counterfeit rapture, I just don’t get it!!!

      • Hi Roy,

        Once again, thanks for your comments. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but with respect to actually dividing Scriptures, it doesn’t appear that is taking place. Everything you’re writing is pure speculation. If you have a Biblical analysis to offer on the fake rapture and where we find a post-trib rapture in Scripture please do. But I don’t understand the point of saying a particular rapture model, whatever it may be, must be wrong if you are not explaining what Scripture is actually saying.

        • Hi B&e, you said that everything I said is speculation, I must ask, is it speculation that Satan is going counterfeit the second coming of Christ? Is it speculation that he will convince most of the world that he is indeed Christ? Is it speculation that Lucifer will work some of the same miracles as Christ?

          Is it speculation that he seduced one third of angels to rebel with him, these angels are of a higher order than man and this includes intelligent. If this intelligent evil being can seduce so many of these super intelligent beings to follower him to their own destruction, pony man better not play around with him when it comes to this timing of the rapture. Now everything I brought up in this post so far is scripture. So, so far none of this is speculation, right?

          Come on now, let us reason together! I’m trying to understand your statement that it’s all speculation; you must believe that the counterfeit second coming is also speculation, because the second coming and the rapture goes hand and hand, what’s one without the other? I’m still trying to find where the speculation is, how can one imitate another person and leave out the main identifying feature of the person? How could Satan pretend to be Christ when there’s no rapture that would be a dead give-away that he’s an impostor. Everything must be according to script, nothing is to be left out, Lucifer must so closely resemble Jesus that it will fool Christians who thought they were studying the bible to find the truth, when all while they were studying just to prove one doctrine over another instead of studying for truth.

          My advice to Christians is to be preparing to go through the tribulation period and know that God’s word is truth; he said He would protect his own. Now you want to know what pure speculation is. This teaching of many pre-tribers that him that letteth is the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the world so Satan can do his thing. Now the pre-tribers will tell you that when the Holy Spirit leaves this world all Spirit filled Christians will ascend with him, this is what must be done to the word of God to try and prove an unsound doctrine.

          The Lord promised that His spirit would be with us even until the end of the world, who convicts of sin once the Holy Spirit leaves this earth? The speculation is taking place in those who would alter the word of God to make it fit an unsound doctrine. If the satanic rapture is speculation than the counterfeit second is also pure speculation!

          • I’m just wondering what Scriptures you are using as the basis of your “fake rapture” and post-trib rapture model. Without Scripture, we run the risk of forming doctrine off our own ideas and take on the Bible, rather than the Bible itself.

      • Q, From the verse of scripture you posted and the ones I posted, it would appear that there are some major contradictions in the bible, there’s no getting around this. Either men send themselves to hell, or they were predestining for hell, if certain men were created just so God could burn them throughout all eternality, that doesn’t sound very much like a loving God to me. If a person was predestine for hell, if that person was created for that purpose and was the most evil rapist, murderer, why should he be tormented throughout eternality [in burning flames] for being good at what he was designed to do in the first place, he was only following the instructions of his creator.

        Now after a lifetime of being good at what he was designed to do by his creator, his creator now punishes him with the most horrible, painful torture imaginable with no possible relief ever! Is this the loving God you’ll presenting to the world? What the apostle was doing was trying to show bunch of prideful sinners that all things rest with God, from the calling of them to repentance to their actual salvation. Every act of Satan against man must go through God first, he must get God’s permission first, and many times God allow this to test the man’s loyalty. I believe God presents Himself to every man’s conscienceless at some point, that’s God’s part. So every man that is saved is because God call him, so no man can say that he came to God on his own.

        Now God has played his part of calling all men to Himself and no man claim credit for coming to the Lord on his own. Now the man has his part to play in his salvation, now one man respond to the call of the Lord, draws closer to the Lord and falls in love with the Lord, and worked out his salvation with the Lord. That man’s respond to the Lord was a proper one. Now there’s this other man that received the same calling from the Lord, yet his respond is totally different from the first man, after receiving the same invitation as the other man, this man find no value in the Lord’s offer and never repents, this man find himself in hell on death-row, awaiting his day of execution when he will be taken out of existence [not burning in hell for all eternality] this man refused life which is his right, but it wasn’t God refusing the man, but the man refusing God.

        Throughout scripture the blame is placed on man when he finds himself in the prison of hell awaiting execution. Now what is the difference in the two men going in opposite directions? It was the decision making of the two men; one accepted the Lord’s offer of life under God’s conditions, the other refuse and was taken out of existence. When we go to scripture, we must ask God to shed His light on His word or else we want receive the light of the word, ask God to illuminate His word when you pick up your bible and watch it come to new life right in your hands. Many are deceived by the so-called great theologians of today; it is these so-called great minds that are destroying the word of God with their many New Age translations which are not new translation, but new interpretations.

        Most Christians use the NIV Bible because the great theologians say this is the best translation [interpretation] of the word of God, and watch as the sheep follower without question. It was the theologians of Jesus day who had so twisted the word of God and disfigured Christ that most did not recognize the Lord when He appeared.

        Man must play a role in his salvation or damnation, or the other way presents the loving Father as a monster, which drives many away from coming to the Lord!!!

      • RETS, you says I stated that some humans were created expressly for suffering, I would like you to quote it to me so I can be sure of what are referring to. You call me a fatalist because I’m I believe that in the final World War there be many death, are you telling me that people are going to stop dying in wars? I think, according to scripture about one third of mankind will be killed in the beginning of this war.

        Now I didn’t go to scripture to find out what it says word for word, but I think you know it’s there. Even the New Age Bibles would agree with that, so you call me a fatalist for believing a clearly taught doctrine of the bible, what does your bible version say on this topic?
        I thing this would be a good starting point, because I’m already confused as to what you are talking about, so let’s start here and move forward.

    • I’m amazed. In a single post, you’ve managed to encapsulate about 78% of every argument for post-tribulationism that I’ve ever heard thus far. Well done, as far as that goes.

      As for your post, I’ll have to go and grab some snippets from the short book I’ve been writing on the subject… No way am I retyping all of that again!

      I will say this, however… You place an inordinate amount of value upon the works of man…

      • Rets,

        Study the First Resurrection Rev. 20 (the rest of the dead did not come to life…), find out what group of people belong to it. Then study the Second Resurrection, and find out also what group of people belong to it. Take the words literally and understand it as simple as it can be, especially this verses:

        If anyone’s name was not found written in the Book of Life, he was throne into the Lake of Fire.
        (Why was it not phrased like this, Everyone’s name was not found in the Book of Life, so all of them were thrown in the Lake of Fire)

        The dead were judged according to what they have done as recorded in the books (good & bad?)

        Try placing in these two resurrections the following:
        Parable of the Ten Virgins
        Parable of the Talents
        The Sheep and The Goats (Are the Sheep Christians who are not aware that it is the Lord they are serving?)

        YBIC
        Eaglet

    • Once again…well said! I notice that whenever someone speaks of past, present persecution of Christians that is happening all over the world, it becomes very silent from the pre-tribbers! hmmmm

      • HI Sheila, Although you and many other post-trib believeres do bring out some good observations, I personally, but respectfully have to disagree with this view. For starters, the OT is full of types of the “rapture” where the “righteous” are removed prior to the arrival of “God’s wrath”. Noah and his family escaping God’s wrath of a universal flood via the Ark in Genesis 6, Lot and his family escaping Sodom and Gomorrah “before” God’s wrath of a hot sulfur downpour on the wicked twin cities in Genesis 19 are just a start. Of course, post -tribbers would point out that Noah and Lot endured significant hardship through these events, just as the church would endure hardship during the Tribulation. So, although I do disagree with the post-trip model and lean more toward either the pre-trib or possibly the mid-trib model, I cannot be totally dogmatic about it, as the Bible is rather hard to “pin down” in this matter.

        One of the stronger arguments in defense of the pre-trib model to me is found in Revelation 3:10, “Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth”. The church of Philadelphia is being addressed in this context and this is the sixth of the seven churches and also represents the true church to me, as they are the only church who gets no negative comments in the Lords critique of them. After this the seventh and final Laodecian church is addressed, which gerts the most scathing admonition of the seven churches from Christ. However, even the Laodecian church is included amongst the seven churches PRIOR to the discourse of the Great Tribulation, covered in chapters 4-18. And once the Tribulation commences in chapter 4 (well actually chapter 6, as chapters 4 and 5 are focused on the throne of God Himself), the church is never mentioned throughout the entire discourse of the Tribulation over the next 15 chapters.

        I think we do all agree that true born-again believers from the day of Pentacost all the way up till now are considered the “New Testament church”, don’t we? “The church” that Christ mentions to Peter is not a building but the body of believers. Sure there will be believers on earth during the Great Tribulation! No one is disputing that. So you ask where do they come from, if they are all raptured away prior to the Great Tribulation? Revelation 7, beginning at verse 4 explains this in the discription of the 144 thousand sealed Jewish believers. And verses 5 through 8 make crystal clear that they are indeed from Israel, as it mentions each of the 12 tribes contributing 12,000 individuals to the total. It is clear that these chosen 144 thousand Hebrews will be on a quest to evangelize the world because “they will look on the one they have pierced” (Zech. 12:10 and John 19:37) and relaize that Jesus Christ IS the true Messiah and proceed to tell the world about Him. At least that’s what I get out of this text. But then John immediately shifts his focus to the “countless multitudes” standing before the throne and the Lamb, clothed in white robes. And verse 14 tells us that these are “the ones who come OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION” and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. Is that saying that they endured the Great Tribulation and went through it? It seems to be saying to me that they came OUT of it, as in escaped it! One could also argue that this is the mid-trib point of the seven year tribulation and this is when the saints are raptured out of the earth. Notice that the next event that is introduced in chapter 8 is the “seventh seal” and the trumpet judgements. This is where it appears that the tribulation really starts to “heat up”. Now as I was saying before, I cannot be totally dogmatic about my view, but I’m definitely led to “lean” toward the pre-trib or possibly mid-trib rapture. Remember, if you consider the book of Daniel along with the Revelation, it would seem that “the Great Tribulation” falls in the final half of the seven year tribulation.

        As to the argument from the post-trib camp that the pre-tribbers are just “burying their heads in the sand” and don’t want to face up to severe suffering that would certainly await anyone who dares to challenge the authority of the anti-christ during the Great Tribualtion… well, let’s consider the text of Hebrews 11. The first 35 verses focus on all of the great and wonderful things that were experienced by OT believers because of their faith, but look at the shift in verses 36 – 38. We see the ones who were persecuted for their faith. Yes, they are listed with the ones who received wonderful things in the previous verses. Whether or not and how much we as Christians suffer for our faith is all in God’s sovereign hands. Christains residing in repressive regimes of the word today also suffer greatly for their faith and stance for Christ and yet believers in most western cultures receive relatively little persecution for their faith (so far). Does this mean that God is not fair? That’s the arguement that the post-trib crowd uses against the idea of the NT chuch escaping the Great Tribulation! Yet God is sovereign and He has the right to allow whatever He deems fit for each of His followeres. Consider the apostles. With the exception of John, they were all likely martered for their faith. Yet John lived out his full lifespan and was probably in his 90s when he authored 1st, 2nd, 3rd John and Revelation. Why are some people born healthy and live out a full lifespan while others are born with severe health problems and suffer greatly or die young or even at birth? Does this mean that God is “unfair”? Then why is it unfair for God to rapture out His NT church before He sends his wrath upon the earth? So, to me, that is not really a valid arguement against a pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation rapture.

        As I have already stated, at the end of the day, I cannot take a 100% dogmatic stance on any model of the Rapture, pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib. But I do believe there is credence to the the pre-trib or mid-trib models in spite of the rantings of the post-tribbers about the others having no scriptural basis for their “wishful thinking”. I also think there are plenty of true born again believers who love and serve the Lord from both views (or all three, if you count the mid-trib view as seperate from the pre-trib view). God bless and I look forward to your response.

  30. Dear Q:

    You said, “B&E, I think it’s interesting how many post trib rapture enthusiasts there are and how passionately they insist on going through it.” I am a post-tribber. I do not insist on going through the Tribulation. I do not want to go through the Tribulation. I wish pre-trib were true. Unfortunately I do not believe scripture supports it. I bet other post-tribbers are just like me.

    • Hey Jim,

      I respect your disagreement. As can be seen from our articles on the Rapture, I do not agree with the tradition pre-trib Rapture model (i.e., Rapture happens at the first seal, the white horse rider is the Antichrist, etc.). I am more than willing to read any Biblical explanation you or other post-trib advocates want to post.

  31. Dear Beginning and End:

    You said, “I do not agree with the tradition pre-trib Rapture model (i.e., Rapture happens at the first seal, the white horse rider is the Antichrist, etc.)”

    I do not believe this is the pre-Trib Rapture model. For pre-tribbers the Rapture is hinted at when John is caught up to heaven – Rev 4:1-2. For pre-tribbers the Rapture happens in Rev 4:1-2. The first seal happens later.

      • I think your position (and mine) would probably be closest described as Pre-Wrath, BaE. We’ve got those five seals to live through, but we’re out before the true wrath of God falls… Provided I understood your article properly. lol

  32. Dear Beginning and End:

    You said, “Except that Paul never mentions the Day of The Lord in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. That phrase is just not in the text. You are adding it there.”

    I just looked at the many translations at Bible Gateway.com. Eight say “day of Christ” – KJV, New KJV, 21st Century KJV, JB Philips, Jubilee Bible, 1599 Geneva Bible, World English Bible, and Youngs Literal Translation. However 37 translations say “Day of the Lord.” I am not adding anything. I am agreeing with the vast majority of scholars who say the correct Greek text is “day of the Lord.”

    • Hi James,

      Very good point and true. However, the 37 translations you are referring to are based on the very shoddy and error filled Codex Sinaticus and Vaticanus manuscripts. The KJV and Geneva Bible are based on the textus Receptus, or Majority text which includes 93% of all the existing New Testament manuscripts. So while more versions are on your side, the better scholarship is on the side of the KJV.

      If you would like to post numerous examples of the errors in the manuscripts mentioned above, please let me know and I will be glad to post them. The Codex Vaticanus has over 19,000 errors in it alone and that is according to the head of the library where it is currently being stores.

      • You said, “So while more versions are on your side, the better scholarship is on the side of the KJV.”

        How can you say that when 8 translations accept the KJV reading while 37 reject it. The vast majority of scholars do not like the KJV. The vast majority of scholars accept modern textual criticism. It does make logical sense.

        Yes I know Sinaiticus and Vaticanus have lots of errors. Have you seen any statistics on how many errors are in a typical manuscript? I have not read of this. Maybe they all have lots of errors. I did notice that my United Bible Society does not slavishly follow Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. There are a few examples where they rejected these 2 manuscripts although they do indeed like them a lot.

        • Hi Jim,

          I think you are leaving out one key factor in this discussion: MONEY. Modern Bible publishers are out to make a profit on their product. In order to obtain a copyright to a published Bible, it has to to pass the “substantial similarity” test. So the modern versions, by law, have to be substantially different from one another in order to be legally publishable. So while it may seem like the 37 modern versions are really focusing on scholarship, but there is a financial incentive in providing a “new” and “cutting edge” version of the Bible. And that incentive requires making the new translation substantially different from the others.

          The KJV of course has no copyright and can be reprinted by anyone who wants to publish it (outside of the United Kingdom -where there is a Royal License on it). But this also removes financial incentive for book publishers. So they make new derivations of the modern versions which are based on copywritten sources.

          Re: Errors. The amount of errors in the Sinaticus and Vaticanus are embarrassing when compared to the TR (which again, was based on 5,000 manuscripts as opposed to 2).

          • Dear Beginning and End:

            KJV and 7 others have “day of Christ.” Meanwhile 37 translations have “day of the Lord.” Are you telling me you believe that 37 Christian scholarly committees intentionally chose the wrong variant when they knew that something else was correct, just so they could have something new to sell? I have greater faith in their integrity. They believe that KJV is wrong as do the strong majority of scholars.

            P.S. Do you think there is any difference between “day of Christ” and “day of the Lord?” I think they are the same day.

            • Hi Jim,

              I am telling you what the legal requirements are to publish a new Bible version. I am also telling you that the basis for those 37 modern versions are 2 manuscripts that are error filled and shoddy. The KJV is based on the Textus Receptus, a transliteration based on 5,000 extant manuscripts and done with much better quality scholarship. These are just facts. Again, if you would like more examples of how inferior the Vaticanus and Sinaticus are, I will be glad to provide examples again (as I have before).

              “They believe that KJV is wrong” – No they do not. They are making the error of interpreting “the Day of The Lord” and “the Day of Christ” as interchangeable terms. And as stated in the article, I do not believe they are at all. And the context and grammar of 2 Thessalonians supports that. This is one of the main points of the above article.

              A lack of understanding of what “the Day of The Lord” means – even though it is the most common term for the end times used in the Bible by far, is the cause of much confusion in interpreting Bible prophecy.

              • Dear Beginning and End:

                I do not think scholars think “day of Christ” is interchangeable with “day of the Lord.”

                United Bible Societies Greek text does not even bother to list “day of Christ” as an option.

                Nestle Aland Greek text does list this as an option. They say Textus Receptus and D support “day of Christ.” Then they say 25 manuscripts support “day of the Lord.”

                It is not just Sinaiticus and Vaticanus.

              • Dear Beginning and End:

                The KJV for 1 Cor 1:8 reads “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” It sure sounds like Paul does not make a distinction between “the day of the Lord” and “the day of Christ.”

                Christ is the Lord so you would think they would be interchangable.

          • Hi there. I only just read this article so this question comes long after the last comment. I was wondering, in regard to the rapture why or how there could be any misunderstanding about pre or post trib rapture/second coming. mathew 24 (to my mind) makes it very clear. granted there are other chapters about the second coming, and other people (like Paul) who wrote about it. however if we take the Bible as “the word of God”, whos is actually Jesus/holy spirit. they are all one. Then when the Disciples asked God HIMSELF in the body of Jesus WHEN the tribulation and specifically the second coming is, wouldn’t HIS word be final? this is my understanding without taking anything out of context.:
            3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
            They are speciffically asking him “when are you coming back” (and other things yes I know).
            next
            21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
            “then” means (from verse 15) after the Abomination of Desolation is set up. I understand there are varying views on what that is or when. but all that aside, the “tribulation” only happens AFTER that.
            next
            29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

            30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

            31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
            From here it seems 100% crystal clear that “Immediatly after the Tribulation” could only mean one thing. Immediatly AFTER the Tribulation.

            Please respond

            • Hi Joseph,

              Thanks for your comments. I would like to respond to them but I would first submit that Matthew 24 is not “crystal clear” and is in fact a very difficult chapter to divide. But that’s just my feeling on it. Let me get to your points:

              “Then when the Disciples asked God HIMSELF in the body of Jesus WHEN the tribulation and specifically the second coming is, wouldn’t HIS word be final? this is my understanding without taking anything out of context.:
              3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
              They are speciffically asking him “when are you coming back” (and other things yes I know).
              next
              21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
              “then” means (from verse 15) after the Abomination of Desolation is set up. I understand there are varying views on what that is or when. but all that aside, the “tribulation” only happens AFTER that.”

              It’s interesting that you quote a question in verse 3 and then skip 17 verses to find its answer. What about everything Jesus said in between? It would seem that saying verse 21 is the answer to the question in verse 3 is slightly out of context without more explanation than that.

              I guess my disagreement here is that there is no “tribulation” in Scripture. We never see the phrase “the tribulation” in the bible and the word “tribulation” by itself is never used as a proper noun. I do believe the “great tribulation” referred to in verse 21 is the end times. Absolutely. But that is not the whole story contextually. Let’s continue:

              29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
              From here it seems 100% crystal clear that “Immediatly after the Tribulation” could only mean one thing. Immediatly AFTER the Tribulation.

              Again, we are just skipping over whole passages with no explanation whatsoever. But let’s assume you’re correct. And verse 29-31 is the Rapture (which I do not believe it is). Does this “crystal clear” passage match up with the description of the rapture given by the Apostle Paul at all???

              31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. – Matthew 24:31.

              versus

              16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

              In the first passage, Jesus sends His angels to gather His elect. In the second passage, Jesus descends HIMSELF and the living and dead believers are snatched violently (harpazo) into the clouds. We all meet in the air and then we are with Jesus in Heaven forever. Do these seem like the same event to you? Just based on these two descriptions? They do not seem similar to me at all. God bless and may we both grow in our knowledge and faith in God’s Holy Word. -B&E

          • Well first off I didnt just skip them because they didnt fit with the context I was shooting for etc. It’s because those verses are not nescessary to discuss in context of TIMELINE. also I was trying to avoid a 3-4 page post. Also from reading the two passages, they do indeed sound the same. just because one of them provides more detail doesn’t make them different. there are many instances in the gospels where one version has more “detail” then another gospel, but they are in fact the same. Also my main point was that, yes other disciples and apostles, bishops, priests etc. have written about the “rapture” but surely god the father/jesus the son “trumps” all their interpretations. In relation to the “omitted” verses, here are 2 previous to V29

            27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

            28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
            (i.e. wherever jesus is so shall we gather)
            The Coming of the Son of Man can only be the “second coming” of Jesus. which would match directly “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven”.

            I would like you to clarify what exactly you (B&E) believes. is the rapture before the tribulation, during the tribulation, or after the tribulation. as far as this topic is concerned I feel similar to christianity opposed to atheists. the question of what if your wrong/right. with christianity/afterlife as opposed to atheism /no god/heaven/afterlife. If christians are wrong, no biggie. everything ends. if atheism is wrong it’s kind of a big deal, especially those who live evil lives thinking that as long as they dont get arrested in this life it doesnt matter cuz there’s nothing after. likewise with the “pre-trib” I feel if mathew 24 is “wrong/incorrect/undecided” then big deal we all go to heaven before the tribulation. if in fact (as I feel) it states that the rapture is after the tribulation, but “pre-tribbers” get stuck in the tribulation then that would be VERY bad indeed. Can’t count the number of atheists and satanist etc. who turned from god because they were taught (wrongly) that everything would be great for them as a christian, and then their parents, offspring etc. die and they turned form God because “obviously” he didn’t keep his part of the deal. one more thing I just though of. iff all the “true believers” are raptured before the tribulation, why would there even be a tribulation? the New world order generally doesn’t dish out punishment to the followers of the agenda. only those opposed.
            Joe

            • Hi Joseph,

              Thanks for your response. I don’t see how skipping from verse 3-21 in what you claim is a chronology is not relevant to the timeline. Furthermore, without properly explaining the context of a passage, how can we rightly divide it? Bible prophecy is a very weighty matter and it deserves that level of thorough examination.

              but if you think that the angels gathering the elect and Jesus Himself descending while believers are caught up in the air to meet Him, are the same event, based on the text from those verses, then you and I have a vastly different way of interpreting Scripture. Because in my reading, they are saying two completely different things.

              As for what I believe regarding the Rapture: I do not believe in “The Tribulation.” There is no such term in the Bible as a proper noun. “tribuation” is a term used to refer to the suffering, trials and temptations all members of the church have faced and will face until the return of Christ. It’s our every day common struggle. The proper term for the end times period that comprises the last years before the Second Coming of Christ is the Day of The Lord. This is far and away the most common term used to denote the end times in the Bible (and on two occasions, The Lord Jesus Christ referred to this time as “great Tribulation”. And I believe this period starts at the opening of the 6th seal of Revelation Chapter 6. It is also at this point that the church is raptured. And the multitude of Revelation 7 is the Raptured church. If you would like more details on this, please see the 3-part Raptures series listed in the End Time Prophecy Section of the Site.

              As for pre-tribbers being “scared” or “shocked” by suffering through the Day of The Lord. I don’t get your point. IF you believe that a born again Christian, does not lost their salvation, then what risk is a pre-tribber running? If they lose their life in this world, what does it matter? They just go directly to God?

              As for what the purpose of the end times is – this is a great question. It has NOTHING to do with the church. The end times is the punishment of the HEATHEN. And for the reconcilliation of the believing remnant of Israel. This is made abundantly clear in Scripture. Again, if you read our article on the Day of The Lord, I think you may see this to be the case:

              Article on the Day of The Lord.

          • Ok well you are putting things out of context. which I dont appreciate. I never said (or alluded to) christians losing salvation because the rapture didnt happen as planned. (pre,post,during) I was merely making that comparison to say IF, it’s not pre, then I imagine all those believing they would go first, wouldn’t be very happy. which MIGHT in turn lead some or many to turn to the “Beast”. much like many vehement atheists (such as darwin) who thought as a christian everything would be hunky dory but turned out not to be and “changed sides” so to speak. also You really should not pay so much attention to semantics. “there is no proper noun, Tribulation”. never said there was. its just a generally accepted term when discussing that period. also no, the verses I “skipped” have no relevance to timline. they are definitely well worth studying. I’ll make another comparison, say the prophecy was about a hijacking and you’re trying to figrue out when the hijackers will kill the hostages, its says “the terrorists will grow up, go to school, join the army, leave the army, become terrorists, move to america, learn to fly planes, learn how to hijack planes, then they will hijack a plane, and IMMEDIATLY AFTER the SWAT team arrives, then they will kill the hostages”. so its really not important to know where they grew up or what school they went to, or when they became terrorists, in regards to WHEN the hostages will die. Also by that logic, Jesus has already returned.
            2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

            3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
            These things, being the temple being torn down, so if you’re being strictly true to grammar and comprehension, they are saying, “when will the stones be torn down, when will you come back and when will the world end.”
            Jesus never said when the stones would be torn down or when the world will end. he doesnt even say when he’s coming back (according to you, its not him its the angels). unless of course it is him. but then you run into the problem, “wait a minute, the stones were already torn down. so if these things all happen at the same time, then Jesus came back when the Romans destroyed the temple, and indeed, left no stone upon another.” which obviously hasn’t happened. Also God/Jesus doesn’t really have a great record of delivering his people before anything bad happens. Granted he doesn’t give you “too much to bear” and he does deliver his people. but the bible and history are full of examples where the believers was tortured and mass murdered. the isarelites were slaves for 400 years before being delivered. most the early “church” including most of the apostles were tortured to death. and since christianity has been a major force in the world christians have been slaughtered by hundreds of thousands. and throughout that time there have been many miracles of deliverance and protection etc. but as far as I can see he doesn’t just “oh snap they’re being persecuted, I’d better bring them home before anything bad happens”.
            But at least now you’ve clarified that as far as you see it, the rapture is before ‘the time of great tribulation”

          • also the multitude of REV 7 couldn’t possibly be the christians on earth today who (to your understanding) get raptured before the tribulation. if they are then who could the souls who were beheaded etc. for the witness of Jesusin REV 20 be? It’s not other religions (Muslims, hindus etc.) it’s specifically “Jesus and the word of God”.
            4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
            5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

            Also note how verse 5 says “the FIRST resurrection”. which by your interpretation would be a lie because we (the multitude/true church) were already raptured/ resurrected back in REV 6.
            and why would the locusts/scorpions (REV 9) be commanded only to harm those “which have not the seal of God in their foreheads”. when we’ve all been taken up already?
            Revelavtions 12 is clearly the struggle during the “endtimes”

            11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

            12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

            13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

            14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

            15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

            16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

            17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

            How could these people (the woman and her see) be anything but true god fearing/believing, people? (also again this is way after REV 6 and “the rapture). also I think if you look closely there is a major differenc between the seals, trumpets and vials in the books of Revelations. I wont even pretend that I understand it all. but I’m just saying if you take the books as CHRONOLOGICAL turns of events then there’s a lot that doesn’t make sense.

  33. Dear Beginning and End:

    Pre-tribbers do not have a good indication of Rapture in Revelation. Post-tribbers can look at the 2 witneses and say that sure looks like Rapture. The very next thing after the 2 witnesses is the seventh trumpet and the things that it says sure looks like Second Advent. This suggests the resurrection (and Rapture?) of the two witnesses happens at the Second Advent.

    1 Cor 15:52 says the Rapture happens at the last trumpet. The seventh trumpet is the last trumpet as far as Revelation is concerned. Interesting.

  34. It’s annoying that the Thessalonians were set straight by an Apostle but we can’t 100% understand when the rapture takes place. I believe no one who says they really truly do. This foolishness started back then and is still going on. It could be part of the great delusion that causes the falling away. But, it aint all about us. The last 7 years are God dealing with Israel. Anyone who can read ought to be able to see that. If God can take Enoch, Elijah and raise the 2 witnesses he ought to be able to take us any time he pleases He can do it. I just want to know if the rapture is at the 6th seal or before the first seal.

    • IF you are a true cristian you don’t worry about those things

      Joseph:
      also the multitude of REV 7 couldn’t possibly be the christians on earth today who (to your understanding) get raptured before the tribulation. if they are then who could the souls who were beheaded etc. for the witness of Jesusin REV 20 be? It’s not other religions (Muslims, hindus etc.) it’s specifically “Jesus and the word of God”.
      4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
      5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

      Also note how verse 5 says “the FIRST resurrection”. which by your interpretation would be a lie because we (the multitude/true church) were already raptured/ resurrected back in REV 6.
      and why would the locusts/scorpions (REV 9) be commanded only to harm those “which have not the seal of God in their foreheads”. when we’ve all been taken up already?
      Revelavtions 12 is clearly the struggle during the “endtimes”

      11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

      12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

      13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

      14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

      15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

      16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

      17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

      How could these people (the woman and her see) be anything but true god fearing/believing, people? (also again this is way after REV 6 and “the rapture). also I think if you look closely there is a major differenc between the seals, trumpets and vials in the books of Revelations. I wont even pretend that I understand it all. but I’m just saying if you take the books as CHRONOLOGICAL turns of events then there’s a lot that doesn’t make sense.

  35. First of all the Bible has verses that will justify the pre-trib crowd, and there are verses that will justify the mid-trib crowd and there are verses that will justify the post-trib people. But let’s not make a religion based on a few verses of the Bible, because clearly there are verses that you know ,that you can’t explain that you know for sure will crumble your belief , but you hide them! when you get to know the truth of Scriptures you will not care about nothing else but just what the Bible has to say and it is scary but some times we have to face the music! According to the Bible you are only to believe if there are ,two or three witnes. I will start with the first witnes ; Daniel, yes Daniel 12:1-2 is the first time in the Bible that refers to the coming of Jesus, and I will break it down for you.
    1.) Daniel 12:1 and at that time “shall Michael stand up”, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people: this only can be confirmed with 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he “be taken out of the way”
    . 2)And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

  36. First of all the Bible has verses that will justify the pre-trib crowd, and there are verses that will justify the mid-trib crowd and there are verses that will justify the post-trib people. But let’s not make a religion based on a few verses of the Bible, because clearly there are verses that you know ,that you can’t explain that you know for sure will crumble your belief , but you hide them! when you get to know the truth of Scriptures you will not care about nothing else but just what the Bible has to say and it is scary but some times we have to face the music! According to the Bible you are only to believe if there are ,two or three witnes. I will start with the first witnes ; Daniel, yes Daniel 12:1-2 is the first time in the Bible that refers to the coming of Jesus, and I will break it down for you.
    1 witnes
    1.) Daniel 12:1 and at that time “shall Michael stand up”, the great prince which stands for the children of thy people: this only can be confirmed with 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he “be taken out of the way”
    . 2)And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time, (the so called tribulation) the time of the “anticrist”. and we can confirm this with 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9 And then shall” that Wicked be revealed”, whom the Lord shall consume with the brightness of His coming:
    3) and at that time thy people shall be delivered, everyone that shall be found written in the book. 2. and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt
    In the words of the Prophet in order for this to happen 1. Micheal need to get out of the way ,2. and then the tribulation will start 3. and then the dead in Crist will rise ,
    I did not said nothing, I’m quoting the prophet Daniel!
    2 witnes “JESUS” in Mathew 24
    This is the firs time in the new Testament that jesus talks about his return Mathew 24:3 And as He sat upon the Mount of olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us,1) when shall these things be? 2) And what shall be the signs of “THY COMING? 3) and of the end of the world?
    from verses 1-14 Jesus explains the times of sorrows.
    At verse 15 the anticrist appears.
    At verse 21 the great tribulation starts.
    At verse 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days..
    Verse 30 And then shall appear the sign of the son of man… and they shall see the Son of man “COMING” in the clouds in the heavens with power and great glory.
    Verse 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of trumpet, and they shall ” GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT” from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    I did not said nothing, it what Jesus who said it !
    Mathew heard it and wrote about it, so did Mark, and Luke only proves that he heard the same words coming out of Jesus. Now if you don’t believe what JESUS said you have a PROBLEM and let me read to you this verse John 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemmed: but he that beliveth “NOT” is condemned already, because “HE HATH NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD. Told you some times we have to face the music!
    3 witnes “Paul”
    In 1 corinthians 15: 51-52 People have always quoted this verse as to tell of the coming of the Lord “in the twinkling of an eye” . What Paul is referring to is the transformation of the human body, is going to happen in a twinkling of an eye . because is obvious that Jesus said in Mathew 24:30 and they should “SEE the Son of man ” coming in the clouds of heaven”, and John in revelations only confirms what Jesus said cause he was there with Jesus, when Jesus said it. Revelation 1:7 Behold, “He cometh with the clouds”; AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM… “not in a twinkling of an eye like people say, the transformation of the human body is going to happen “in a twinkling of an eye” As a matter of fact Paul is not talking about the coming of the Lord, He’s talking about what’s going to happen to the human body in the coming of the Lord, that in a twinkin of an eye the human body will be transformed.
    Now explain to me when Jesus said in
    Revelations 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and ending , saith the Lord, which is, and which was, AND WHICH IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY. now sit down and listen, this is the beginning of the book of Revelations there are no seals yet,no trumpets yet, no vials yet. And Jesus of the same book of Revelations is telling us that WHICH IS TO COME” He is telling us that He is coming back. Now in chapter 11 of the same book Revelations, verse 14 when the seventh angel sounded the SEVENTH TRUMPET.
    15 and the four and twenty elders,which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worship GOD. “pay attention to what they said: 17.Saying, We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and ART TO COME? …. Notice this is the seventh trumpet and the elders are still saying : that He has not come back yet, BUT THAT HE IS COMING??? ARE YOU IN THE TRIBULATION OR NOT??? there is more that i want to write , My mother thought me to read and write with the Bible, when I was three I went to first grade, I have played in the church pews since I was 2 now at 49 I’m not going to say that I know all the Bible but I know what’s written on its pages, and the truth shall set you free…….

  37. ON READING THE COMMENTS OF THIS SUBJECT IT APPEARS EVERYONE ACCEPTS DISPENSATIONALISM AS FACT. IF YOU READ PETER’S ACCOUNT OF THE SECOND COMING IN 2PETER 3 AND VERSE 10 SPECIFICALLY THERE IS NO RAPTURE, NO TRIBULATION AND NO MILLENNIUM. THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION IN STATMENT OF FAITH UNDER ‘LAST THINGS” FOLLOWS PETER’S ACCOUNT. PETER WALKED WITH JESUS FOR THREE YEARS AND HE PREACHED FOR 30 YEARS AND JESUS DID NOT TELL HIM ABOUT DISPENSATIONALISM BUT WAITED 1800 YEARS AND TOLD JOHN DARBY. GIVE ME A BREAK…. PETER KNEW THE WRITINGS OF PAUL AND THE OLD TESTAMENT. JOHN DARBY FOUND THE RAPTURE FROM A MARGRET MACDONALD WHEN SHE HAD VISION OR TRANCE. THEN REINTERPRETED 1 THESS 4-16&17 TO BE A RAPTURE. ALL SCHOLARS BEFORE SAID 16&17 WAS TALKING ABOUNT THE SECOND COMING. JUSTIN MARTYR, IRANAUS, TERTILLIAN AND JOHN CHRSYTOM SAID THE 70 WEEKS OF DANIEL ENDED WITH DESTRUCTION OF JEWISH SYSTEM IN 70 AD BY THE ROMANS. THAT WAS GOD’S DIVORCE OF THE JEWS AND HE TOOK A NEW BRIDE THE CHURCH. THE SUBJECT MATTER OF MATTHEW 24 WAS THE DESTRUCTION OF THE JEWISH SYSTEM BY THE ROMANS. SO YOU HAVE THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS. NO ONE IS SURE WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED EXCEPT THE LAST 2-3 CHAPTERS. AGAIN WE HAVE ANOTHER LATTER DAY PROPHET HAL LINDSEY WHO BELIEVES HE WAS GIVEN SPECIAL REVALATION FROM GOD TO EXPLAIN THE BOOK TO THE WORLD. ALL OF THIS TO TRY AND REVIVE THE OLD JEWISH SYSTEM FOR THE JEWS ,GODS CHOSEN PEOPLE EXCEPT EXODUS 19-5 CREATS A PROBLEM. THEY MUST OBEY GOD’S COMMANDS. DID THEY OBEY WHEN THEY CRUCIFIED HIS SON? SO DISPENSATIONALIST FOLLOW DARBY AND THE JEWS YOU MAY END UP IN THE ABYSS. GOOD LUCK.

    • You know, I love folks like yourself, mainly because it makes it that much easier to dismiss anything other than a pre-wrath rapture.

      Just sayin’ – Thanks for reinforcing my beliefs!

  38. Believing in the PRE-TRIB RAPTURE is like believing in HAPPINESS ,people offers those things but not the BIBLE, try looking for the word; RAPTURE and the word HAPPINESS, you will never find them in the NEW TESTAMENT. Yet the people promise you happiness, when Jesus never does, and people promise you a PRE-TRIB rapture when JESUS “NEVER DOES”
    1 CORINTHIANS 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apolos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us NOT to think of men above that which is WRITTEN, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

    AM I THEREFORE BECOME YOUR ENEMY,BECA– USE I TELL YOU THE TRUTH? Galatians 4:16
    the truth shall set you free!!!!

    • Well, the word TRINITY never appears in the New Testament (or Old Testament) either. Does that mean that there is no triune Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

      • How old are you? if you are a cristian you have to believe in the FATHER, the SON, and THE HOLY SPIRIT,, you can find them on the BIBLE. NOW YOU SHOW ME THE WORD “RAPTURE” smart??.
        Let me read you mind . Some time in the future when things starts to go bad in the world,(new world government) and before the anticrit appears in the scene,in a time that you don’t know, Jesus is coming for you,no body will be able to see it, or know about it, just a few of special people “LIKE YOU” that will not have to go through nothing bad because you are “special . which Bible are you reading??? You have as proof that if you follow Jesus you are no only to suffer, but to die as well. Every body in the Bible suffer death, but not you, ?For what special things that you do, you are not subject not to suffer? because you believe the Bible, because you believe Jesus,because you are a good person, “o” is because you are “special’!!

        Is like longing to go to heaven, but been afraid of dying; well that’s the only thing that separates you from heaven ”DEATH”
        But according to you: God is going to twists his word,and change Scriptures so you would not suffer because you are “”special”.
        you are for a rude awakening ,,Brother!!!!!
        I”M talking Bible here!! so I’will suggest you talk Bible to me, IDEAS; I have alot of them too.
        I wish that it will be like you say: but when I read the Bible your “IDEAL” falls. and I will suggest not to believe in me, PLEASE BELIEVE THE BIBLE .. the truth shall set you free!!

        • First, I’m 51 and yes, I am a Christian, having accepted Him as my Saviour nearly 30 years ago. Second, just like B&E states, you’re making a lot of claims, but not really providing Scriptural references for your statements. Noah and the ark in Gen. 6 is one of the first types of the rapture that we come across in Scripture. Then Lot and his daughters escaping the destruction of Sodom in Gen. 19. In both cases, the righteous people were removed before the wrath of God fell down. There are many other Scriptures that point to a pre-trib rapture even if the Bible doesn’t spell it out in direct terms.

          I can see where someone would tend to believe in the post trib model as well and I don’t look down on anyone who holds that view. You have to take the whole Bible, not just a few verses here and there, to base a doctrine on. As I’ve pointed out before, there are many mentions of Christ in the Old testament but yet, He is never mentioned in the Old Testament as “Jesus Christ”. Of course, we Christains of this modern age can easily see the pictures and types of Christ in OT Scripture because we now have the full Word of God, including the New Testament. However, many people in days that Christ was on earth, including His own disciples, were not totally up to date on just WHO Jesus was. As an example, Philip asked Jesus to “show us the Father and it will suffice” in John 14:8. Peter also made a blunder on the Mount of Transfiguration in Matt 17:4, telling Jesus that they should build three tabernacles, including one each for Elijah and Moses. And of course when it came time for Jesus to face the cross, none of His disciples were prepared for a crucified Messiah. Indeed they were fully expecting Him to establish His Kingdom on earth at that time. And yes, the OT does mention that Christ (referred to as the Messiah in the KJV) will be “cut off” at the end of the “sixty-two weeks” in Daniel 9:26, but yet His own disciples did not “catch on” until AFTER His resurrection.

          I could go on and on but at the end of the day, I think NO ONE has ALL the answers and I’m sure that all believers will be in for a surprise when they reach heaven. BTW, yes death is the way that the overwhelming majority of believers enter heaven but there have been a few exceptions (Enoch and Elijah come to mind). I think anyone in their right mind, whether believer or non-believer, does not fancy the idea of dying. Yes, Jesus certainly told us to expect persecuton from the world (becuase Satan is still the prince and power of the air). However, He did not tell us to expect the wrath of God upon us. As a matter of fact, we are saved from God’s wrath through salvation. When He talks to His disciples like they are personally going to be going through the tribulation in Matt. 24, I believe He is referring to the nation of Israel. The twelve apostles are a type of the twelve tribes and the church was still non-existant at this point.

          Anyway, I don’t claim to have all the answers and never will but I think as B&E says, we should try to RIGHTLY devide the Sciptures and a friendly discussion of differing views in attempts to rightly devide the Scriptures is what this website is all about.

        • Hi J.R.,

          For the record, the word “Bible” is not in the Bible either. So I do not know if that should be the standard we use for determining if someone has a valid, Biblical point. -B&E

  39. Just discovered this great website and want to give many thanks to you “Beginning and End”.
    Sorry this has turned out to be is a long post…

    About me, I got saved at 16 but somehow did not properly follow Gods path. I am now 40 and although having had strong beliefs and faith that Jesus died for our sins it is only recently that I have found GOD again. This currently during a very troubled time in my life with a chance that I face financial ruin, after months of hardship and depression that I have tried to hide. Having to come to terms with feelings of failure both as a provider to my family and as a husband/father particularly as a person that has sacrificed a lot and worked hard trying to achieve success in this recession. I have even felt ashamed of myself in having to turn to GOD at such a time of need like a stray dog that disobeyed its master begging/praying for help. In the mirror I see myself with what I can only describe as temptation thoughts of evil and past selfishness/self pity coming with the stress and worries such fears bring including even thoughts of suicide. Oh the Devil already has had me visit, pick my place and means of suicide and I go through days of torment waiting to understand my fate regards my business and personal life.

    For now however I fighting hard in finding peace in the word of GOD and trying hard to keep faith knowing he has helped me in the past. Will I feel forsaken if my situation does not go in how I want/need it and I loose everything, I don’t yet know. What I do know however is that for some reason I am finding the word of GOD really speak to me in ways I have not felt or understood before and in every day I see signs that he is listening with daily things that just seem to freaky to just be coincidences.

    ONTO MY POINTS / QUESTIONS !

    B&E I feel in my heart and believe your understandings are indeed accurate. Importantly you do unlike some others backup your views by scripture (that’s what counts and giving simple understanding in the context of the scriptures). It is something I always keep an eye for as know it is all to easy to get or believe something not accurate even if it is presented with conviction.

    Peoples views will always differ and indeed nobody will get everything just right as some have expressed. I think much of the differences come from past teachings and in how some Churches seem to have their theory/understandings and are quick to dismiss anything but possibly how generations of “their own congregations” did explain or teach the scriptures. Is it part stubbornness or pride in themselves to not accept “new more recent” alternative and well backed by scripture views?
    Then again who am I to express such with much less understandings other than what my heart tells me feels right.

    I would like to put some thoughts and words down for consideration and your help/advice please. Let me say that I am well out of my depth here no scholar and have little “true revision/understanding” regards most books of the Bible. Yes I remember some things from as a child going to church and Sunday-SchooI. Please excuse if what I say is silly or embarrassing, this is my first reply ever to any religious based message-board / website.

    I am just reading/learning again and have found the internet to be valuable even if their is a LOT of opinions and misguided information being presented. I do find it rather amazing the knowledge of the Bible some people have, very impressive but to an extent with a PC I can obtain almost like a SAT-NAV of the Bible letting me discover and find versus of the Bible through people like yourself I would not know where to find or even know they existed. I do believe I am learning things particularly about end times which is fascinating me because it is our future and prophecy yet to happen. The understanding that our generation now will be the ones to witness this is in some ways amazing but also frightening.

    Forgive me for not knowing exact verse etc but does it not say come the end times our understanding and knowledge will increase? Is this itself not proof that possible previous understandings within the Bible even those above being argued over and how they were understood will become “more clear” as we approach the end times.

    Just recently we have the advent of computers helping, being able to track the movements of the moon/sun/stars and what helped bring me back in repenting to Jesus was seeing where we now are in the world events and the relatively new understandings about the “Blood Moons” and the importance of Gods appointed days, the relevance of them in the past and likelihood of them in the future bringing forward events such as the destruction of Damascus, the rebuilding of the 3rd temple, collapse of the $ bringing forward a new world currency. Looking at the daily news it is all right at our doorstep.

    One point I would like to put forward is that surely the desires of the NWO for a one world currency, one world government, the reduction of population via death of billions of people and eventually a one world religion all point exactly to what the Bible says is for happening with the eventual unveiling of the Anti-Christ and end times?

    For me the rapture has to be before the tribulation for many of the reasons B&E and already expressed so clearly. However folks surely real world events will also present greater understandings of the time of the Rapture and continue to make things clearer for those of us that are NOT asleep but looking for the signs.

    Possibilities Of A Future Middle East War:

    Iran/Russia (all the players the Bible says) already in place going to war with Israel.
    Nuclear Destruction of Damascus?
    Israel defeating it’s enemies, taking control of more of their promised land.
    The destruction of the Dome would be certain in such circumstances would it not?
    Rebuilding of the Temple would then be inevitable.

    Now such events clearly would set off alarm bells to even the average person on the street even if a non believer that Bible prophecy is becoming more and more believable, “than just by chance” in actual worldly happenings or evidence for those that have not believed before? Come on… something like the destruction of Damascus or the rebuilding of the temple which we know is ready to be built could not be ignored unless only by the most ignorant of our Lord? To me this seems to create a position that the timing of such war/events has to also coincide closely with the timing of the Rapture. If not then how does the LORD come like a thief in the night or after the Antichrist? It would be so obvious the timing was close at hand and as more will be learned and what effect/events take place regarding the Blood Moons if indeed they are prophetic signs like in the past. The more that happens which is prophesied even to an unbeliever and betting man soon has to become closer to being the truth does it not.

    I find it hard to dismiss a fact that that as Christians we would NOT accept the marking of the beast or to do trade in his name. So I do not see how many Christians would survive for the supposed 3.5 years of good never mind the events of the seals upto number 6. Correct me if I am wrong but the Bible does not state that the Antichrist will allow thousands/millions of Christians to die as we cannot trade/eat live also seriously I want to ask Christians that think otherwise why would God allow that to happen?

    Okay almost done with my marathon of questions….
    What I have not seen yet anywhere is a real world term/explanation in the effect an event like the Rapture would have worldwide. Surely if millions of people were to vanish and go into heaven it would also cause world chaos, not only that but it would prove that Christ/Christianity was indeed real. Not aliens or other false Gods existing?

    For me I can not get my head around how such an event can not happen and have such a dramatic effect on denouncing other religions. Okay look, for non believers hurricanes/freak weather, floods,global warming and even the events of the above war some will find excuse for but how could the Rapture be excused as “just a world event and NOT a GODLY one?

    So surely in the event of the Rapture the world has to be at the point that it would be set around or after the war/destruction of Damascus and Israel crushing their enemies? Would the appearance of the Antichrist not be appropriate at this time to emerge. Then does he not himself proclaim he IS Christ now on earth?

    (sorry for lack of scripture I hope B&E covers this with the scripture I know is their/relevant. I think I am correct on some of this also being told in the Bible?)

    Excuse my description of some aspects and lack of detail and correct me please I WANT to LEARN.
    If the Jews have been waiting on their KING but they always expected a GREAT conquering KING am I right in believing that the Anti-Christ to them fills the description/requirements to be perceived as indeed be “their believed CHRIST” and not the one we know died for OUR sins already?

    After the 3.5 years he is wounded but lives and then has the powers of Satan and the abomination with “a statue in his image” he wants people to worship him? (I believe it describes an object not a person as the abomination if I am right?) Is it not then also after the wrath of GOD the 144,000 still living after the Seals being fulfilled who will eventually learn of the truth on the 2nd coming of our Lord and his victory in battle over Satan and his armies for our 1000 year reign on earth with CHRIST.

    I appreciate comments and references to actual scriptures if anything above is relevant for discussion.
    Thanks if you made it this far down if reading…

  40. You could not be in more error in your assumption of when Christ gathers his elect. Since this is dealing with the church’s FIRST resurrection, you need to look at who is in that number. It is apparent that you overlooked Revelation chapter 20 verses 4,5,6. In verse four you will find some of that number to be those who refused to worship the anti-christ or receive the mark who reign with Christ a thousand years. Second, either the apostle John is correct in calling this the first resurrection of the church or he is not. Now those who do not take part in the first will be judged in the second and judged by the books of their actions. It is as though you are reading someone else’s mail and you have no reference of relationship. Remember that all the books from Romans to Revelation were written to those who were already in the church with perhaps exception to the Book of Hebrews which many believe was for Jewish believers. This book is where we come to understand that for there to be a New Testament there first had to be the death of the testator to fulfill what was written in the old. That is why we see in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles the adding of souls to the church. Peter told them what they must do to be saved. Acts 2:37-41. Unless you entered into the church this way you were never privy to the doctrine of the apostles and the messages to the churches would never have full meaning to you………no reference of relationship.

    • Hi Jeff,

      Thanks for your comments. If I am reading your comment correctly, you believe that Revelation 20 is where the Rapture takes place and all Christians are resurrected. I base that on this statement:

      ” Since this is dealing with the church’s FIRST resurrection, you need to look at who is in that number. It is apparent that you overlooked Revelation chapter 20 verses 4,5,6. In verse four you will find some of that number to be those who refused to worship the anti-christ or receive the mark who reign with Christ a thousand years.”

      Here is Revelation 20:4-6:

      And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

      The group of “souls” that John sees do not contain “some” of those who died by beheading for not taking the Mark of the Beast. The ENTIRE group is comprised of those who were martyred by the Antichrist and his regime. This is very clear from a plain reading of the text. So this group could not be the Raptured church, full of Christians from all time. This is a very specific group of those who died for the faith during the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation. So I think your interpretation fails here.

      As I have stated before, this moment is called “the First Resurrection” because it is the first resurrection in Christ’s Kingdom. Revelation 20:4 is such an important passage because it is the first description of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. The same throne Jesus told the disciples they would sit on, judging the nation of Israel, are set up. The Lord Jesus Christ is now literally on the seat of David. This is an entirely new age from the one we are living in now. Hence the name “the first resurrection.”

      We can receive more confirmation of this timing from the book of Jude:

      And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. – Jude 1:14-15.

      When Jesus Christ returns at armageddon you, me and the rest of the saints will be with Him. We are part of His armies that ride behind Him at His Second Coming. So it seems clear that we would have been resurrected and glorified at this point. I hope that makes sense. God bless.

      • In my opening statement when I said, “the church’s First resurrection”. I would think everyone understands the dead in Christ first then we which are alive and remain together. Now I would not presume to know the timing of the last trump other than to say it is after the revealing of the beast and false prophet and their attempt to eradicate the faithful to when the LORD returns with the “armies which were in heaven”. Rev. 19:14. In reading your thoughts on Thessalonians, I was under the impression that you are of that number that think the church would not be around for the persecution coming on the earth for Christians. Some mistake the tribulation of the beast and false prophet against those who refuse the mark as justification of a pre-tribulation rapture.

      • There you go again B&E…proving yourself that your own pre-trib theory is wrong. Gee whiz….The ENTIRE group is comprised of those who were martyred by the antichrist and his regime?…..correct me if I’m wrong but I thought you just said anyone in that category would already be in Heaven….”raptured away”?…and not left here to deal with “tribulation”? Come on man…you can’t have it both ways. Is this how you want Jesus to know you? Methinks you may have some serious explaining to do on Judgement Day. False teachers will not be taken lightly…especially one going out of his way to reach many people. Some food for thought. Open your mind for your own sake.

  42. Hi B and E, really like your explanation on this subject. I’ve studied alot about pre-mid-post trib theories in part because the mid and post ones were “in” as someone mentioned. There’s always one thing that will never fit the mid and post trib theory and it’s very simple. The 70 weeks were given for Israel. The pause between the 69th and 70th weeks is clearly the church era.

    There’s more to it but let’s keep it short.

    I also like to point out that i don’t believe that the 24 elders represent the church for the simple reason that Christ is going to marry the Church and that would make him …. well you know…. a very pervert God. I don’t think that after the perfect Bible he wrote over many years He would make such a stupid analogy.

  43. Very interesting website. Have some revelations I wish to share. I found out some years ago that there are two distinct sources of scripture. One source was in the place where those who believed in Christ were first called “Christians”, the city known as Antioch in ancient Syria. The other source was based in Alexandria, Egypt, which was known as the “Iron Furnace”. There are many versions of the scriptures that use the word “he” or “him” to describe a “beast rising out of the sea” in Revelation 13. There are a relative few versions, 4 if memory serves me, that describe one “beast rising out of the sea” and “another beast rising out of the earth” in Revelation 13, not any one person as “The Antichrist”. In these versions both the first and second beast are described using the word “it” or “its”, NOT “he” or “him”. Christ spoke out against the teachings of the Jews in Alexandria, Egypt. It is my contention that those who rely on the scriptures from the Alexandria, Egypt source do greatly err.

    • Hello Lanny:-

      I read your message to us all and am trying to make sense of it as accurately as I can as not to share back incorrect information. I believe that the beast is described as an “IT” and therefore we have to be on the lookout for possibly anything that could be “IT” the antichrist. As a christian I believe that GOD has blessed me with the ability to detect, smell, feel, see anything that is not of Christ. I can tell immediately if something is Good or Bad etc. The leader out the North wears a huge cross around his neck but he has the face of a snake. He almost had me believing that he is a Saint but I am telling you there is more to him than meets the eye. I don’t want to run anyone down or judge anyone in the wrong manner but I know with certainty that already there are many things happening on the earth that are direct acts out of Revelations and we are already being fooled in many ways. This is scary as we can so easily be part of something that is not from GOD. We have to pray numerous times each day, put on our armor of GOD and pray for the power of Discernment. I do not know of the exact time when the Lord is coming but 4 years ago GOD spoke to me with His own mouth and told me that all humans have one more chance to repent before something great is going to happen.

      GOD bless us all

      Deborah

    • Lanny: I found out some years ago that there are two distinct sources of scripture. One source was in the place where those who believed in Christ were first called “Christians”, the city known as Antioch in ancient Syria. The other source was based in Alexandria, Egypt, which was known as the “Iron Furnace”.

      This is a commonly held belief by folks who hold to a “King James Version Only” stance. (Not saying you do, merely that it is most often held by those who also have a KJV-Only viewpoint in common.)

      This is an inaccurate premise, my friend, for while the followers of Christ were first called Christians at Antioch, it was not a complimentary title. They were also persecuted en mass for the first time in Antioch, so overall- Not a great place.

      Lanny: Christ spoke out against the teachings of the Jews in Alexandria, Egypt.

      I should mention that Christ never once mentions Alexandria. Not once, in any translation that I have, does Christ mention Egypt. This, by the way, was checked in the following translations…

      King James Versions:
      1611 AKJV; KJV; NKJV; KJV 21st Century; KJV Clarified; Modern KJV; Updated KJV; and the Restored Names KJV

      Modern English translations:
      The Revised Young’s Literal Translation; the New World Translation; the Restored Holy Bible; the Rotherham Emphasis Bible; the Revised Version; the Spoken English New Testament; the Third Millenium Bible; the Welcome Bible; the Living Bible; the Lexham English Bible; the Literal Translation; the New American Standard; the New Heart English Bible; the NIV; the NIV-UK; the NIV Readers Edition; the New Living Translation; the NLT second edition; the New Life Version; the New Revised Standard; the English Majority Text version; the Easy-to-Read Version; the English Standard Version; the Good News Bible; the God’s Word version; the Holman Christian Standard Bible; the Holy New Covenant Translation; the International Standard Version; the Jonathan Mitchell New Testament; the Bible for a New Generation; the An Understandable Version Bible; the Awful Scroll Bible; the Bible in Basic English; the Bible in Worldwide English; the Contemporary English Version; the Concordant Literal Version; the Complete Apostle’s Bible; The Amplified; the Common English Bible; the Complete Jewish Bible; the Expanded Bible; the Good News Translation; the Names of God Bible; the New Century Version; the New English Translation; the New Life Version; and The Voice Bible

      Older English translations:
      The Young’s Literal Translation (1898); the Joseph Smith Translation of 1867 (not the Mormon founder); the Twentieth Century New Testament (1904); the 1833 Webster Bible; the 1912 Weymouth New Testament; the 1904 Worrell New Testament; the 1855 Murdock New Testament; the 1889 Darby Translation; the 1942 Emphatic Diaglott New Testament; the 1899 Douay-Rheims Bible; the J.B. Phillips New Testament (1906); the American Standard Version (1901); and the Charles Thomson New Testament (1908)

      Enlightenment era English translations:
      The Daniel Mace New Testament (1729), and the Thomas Haweis New Testament (1795)

      Antiquity Bibles in English:
      The Tyndale Bible (1526); the Geneva Bible (1587); the 1568 Bishop’s Bible; the 1394 Wycliffe Bible and the 1385 Wycliffe New Testament

      Non-English sources:
      Textus Receptus; Wescott-Hort Greek New Testament (NA26/27 var); the Peshitta; the Codex Sinaiticus; and the Metaglottisis

      More than 80 different translations, including sources, show Christ never said anything about Egypt, Alexandria, or Jews from either place. (I did not list all of the translations, in case you’re counting.) Moreover, Christ Himself was a Jew who returned to Israel a naturalized Egyptian citizen. In light of these things, perhaps you’d like to amend your assertion, Lanny, or expound upon your premise? Which teachings, exactly, did Christ single out as being from Egypt?

      Lanny: It is my contention that those who rely on the scriptures from the Alexandria, Egypt source do greatly err.

      It would be my contention that those who rely upon this pseudo-doctrine err in far grander fashion.

      • Hello Lanny and Rets,

        You guys are way too intelligent for me but carry on because I love to learn daily about the WORD of our Father GOD. Oh! I love HIM sooooo much and am sooooo excited to go HOME when my time is due and be happy and loved for eternity with other good people that are truly pure. So worthy.

        I wish all my fellow awesome christian friends a wonderful weekend. Keep praying and be kind in all you do.

        Blessings

        Deborah (The busy Bee that I am)

  44. Sebastien:
    Jero,

    You are incredibly confused and all we can provide are prayers, from this blog, at this point. We cannot continue to debate your atheism, evolution, your undesired understanding of Christianity and the Bible on this blog. You are clearly hijacking this site to spread misinformation and confuse people that seeks God.

    Evolution is not a science but a belief and that is a fact. Evolution goes against several fundamental scientific rules and laws.It’s beyond the ridicule of statistic, it creates matter with more energy than previously, the speed of light is assumed has a constant, there’s always something coming from nothing… Therefore, by scientific laws, it takes more faith to believe in evolution than in God.

    B&E: your post has been hijacked you’ll have to make a decision but I’ll will not return, not even to help people seeking pre-tribulation information.

    Have all a good and blessed day.

    Please chose a site that discuss the several topics you have started on this blog. This is about the pre-tribulation rapture that factually predates Darby.

    • Hi Sebastien, Amen! I couldn’t have answered Jero any better than you have. I’ve actually felt prompted to pray for Mr. Jones after a bit of verbal “sparring” with him. When I hear/read the typical ranting from a secularist such as he and their defence of the Darwinian model of origins, it really opens my eyes to how true the apostle Paul was in stating, ” in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” (II Corinthians 4:4). Also, John 3:19 states, ” And this is the condemnation: that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” That is the crux of the whole issue to me. With a human sinful nature, we all have a rebellious bend and want to do our “own thing” without giving thought to be held personally accountable for our actions. I have to say that is one thing that I actually respected about the late athiest apologist Christopher Hitchens. He actually admitted that he enjoyed his sinful lifestyle of boozing and philandering and that he did not want to be accountable to any “God” for his choice of lifestyle. At least he was honest! It blows my mind that someone can cite all of the so-called “proven scientific fact” that the universe is 13.8 billion years old, that the earth and the sun are about 4.5 billion years old and that it was slow process of gravity gradually “pulling” clouds of dust together through acretion that gradually formed basically all of the celestial bodies; that life “spontaneously” formed from non living material about 4 billion years ago and that ALL life can be traced back to that single cell of life that just popped up out of nothing 4 billion years ago. I’m sorry, but it takes a WHOLE LOT MORE FAITH for me to believe that fairy tale than it does to believe Gen 1 and 2! I’m often tempted to ask people who espouse such philisophocal viewpoints, “And who was there to record this so-called (scientific fact) that the universe exploded into existence out of absolutely nothing 13.8 billion years ago, that life spontaneously formed from totally sterile matter 4 billion years ago, all of the dinosaurs were wiped out by an asteroid collision with earth 65 million years ago, ect.?” 🙂 Anyway, I hope to see more from fellow Christians such as yourself on the blog spot and that you will not the “naysayers” discourage you from speaking your mind on this site.

      • Yes your right about not giving up. That is most certainly the evil one’s plan.

        Thanks for the cheering me up.

        Yes about evolution. Scientific facts reject evolution but let’s just ignore those facts for a moment will you…. 😉 The people behind those contradicting theories (almost) all have phds.

        In the tv show “The Big Bang Theory”, Sheldon claims that: “…evolution is a fact” and his mother tells him: “…and that is your opinion”.

        Have a nice day

        • Prynhawn Da/Good Afternoon
          Hi Sebastien and David
          [Censored for personal attacks].

          Today, all Christian denominations preach the doctrines of Paul, the false prophet, and not the teachings of the man Jesus.

          Y Diwedd (The End)

          Jero Jones, Mab Cymru

          • Hi Jero,

            Please refrain from personal attacks. You are free to disagree. but just trying to attack others and blaspheme a religion is not permitted.

            And it’s rather ironic, considering that in other posts you have lauded your own open-mindedness and compassion. I humbly request that you exercise some of that compassion now and keep things civil.

            • Bore Da/Good Morning
              Hi B&E
              Sorry, I am unsure of what you are referring to, when you say ‘refrain from personal attacks,’ and ‘blaspheme a religion!’ Can you enlighten me please! I would like to know, If I have transgressed unknowingly I will apologies.

              Cofion (regards)

              Jero Jones,

  45. B&E:
    I must say, very good explanation of your understanding of the Holy Scriptures. And I agree with you, in context, that the son of perdition will, indeed, be revealed after the Rapture of the Church. I am confused on some points of your interpretation as far as when and where the Antichrist shall come onto the world stage and when the 7 years actually begin. I guess where I get stymied is based,in part, on Daniel 9:27. Without a long dissertation, I don’t think there is any argument that the Scriptures are referring to the “he” in verse 27 as The Beast (The Antichrist, the son of perdition, etc) and that this son of hell will play peace maker and make a covenant (or some type of peace agreement) “with many” (traditionally believed to be between Israel and nations that are hostile to the Jewish State). It is speculated that this covenant will allow Israel to rebuild the Holy Temple, since the temple is mentioned prominently in scripture as being present during the final 7 years before the 2nd Coming.
    Daniel states that this “covenant” will be made for “one week” and be broken in “the midst of the week”. If I am understanding you correctly, when the 6th Seal is broken, the Church will be Raptured, then the Day of the Lord (Great Tribulation) will commence with a world cataclysmic earthquake and horrific upheaval. My question is: Where has Daniels 70th week began? I have read, studied and listened to numerous theologians with a great understanding of eschatology. I have always read and understood that the 7 year period would begin at or soon after the Rapture, Now, I am certainly in agreement with the interpretation of Revelation Chapter 6, but I have difficulty understanding how the Antichrist will suddenly appear, make a “covenant” in the midst of this cataclysm and then wait another 3.5 years before he breaks the covenant by entering the Holy Temple (which also has to be rebuilt) and causes the sacrifices to cease and sets himself up as a god to be worshiped.
    Perhaps I missed that here or in one of the other articles and I would really like to hear your (And I say all of this with the deepest of sincerity) your interpretation. I am here to learn, understand and listen so that I may, by the working of the Holy Spirit within me, be able to help others who are eager to know, considering the times that we live in.
    Your brother In CHRIST,
    Kelly Allen
    MARANATHA!.

    • Hi Kelly,

      Thanks so much for your comments. First off, please pardon the delay in my response. We have been experiencing major computer problems in 2014, so we are working at a very slow pace unfortunately. But that should all change soon as we are heading back to normal, by God’s grace.

      Secondly, I completely appreciate your referring to the articles as my interpretation, which it indeed is. And you have asked an excellent question -when does the 70th week actually start? I have spent a great deal of time researching Scripture trying to determine this as well and as we continue our series in Revelation 8, it will be addressed.

      But regarding Daniel 9:27, I do not believe that it refers to the Antichrist making a peace treaty with Israel. I would refer you to the same verse in the Septuagint, which I think has a clearer rendering of the meaning of the passage. (Further credence is given to this passage since it uses the phrase “abomination of desolation” – the exact phrase used by Our Lord when quoting Daniel in Matthew 24).

      I also encourage you to do a search of “covenant” in the Old Testament – it almost always refers to an agreement that involves God as one of the two parties. So what am I saying here? That I believe “the covenant” is a reestablishment of the Mosaic covenant in Israel – being exercised fully (with temple sacrifices as per Levitical law). And of course, as you noted, in the middle of this week, the Antichrist will put an end to these sacrifices and oblations and proclaim himself god.

      If you would like more details on this, please let me know because I would be glad to share them. I just didn’t want to make my response too long. Thanks again so much for your comments. You clearly have have an excellent grasp of Scripture and some very complex subjects. God bless you abundantly.

      • You said,”But regarding Daniel 9:27, I do not believe that it refers to the Antichrist making a peace treaty with Israel.” The verse in question is, “He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven….” Do you think “he” is God? You mentioned that God made covenants.

        What is the antecedent of “He?” It would seem to be the previous verse, “The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood. War will continue until the end ….” That does not sound like God.

        Note the end of verse 27, “He will put and end to sacrifice and offering.” Same “he.” This does not sound like God. If God established a covenant that permitted temple sacrifices, I do not think that he would negate it after 3.5 years.

        It sure sounds to me like “He” is the antichrist.

        • Hi James,

          In my response to Kelly, I was clear that I am going by the rendering of Daniel 9:27, from the Septuagint. It is a very different rendering and the basis for my interpretation.

          • Dear B&E,

            The English translation of my Septuagint for Daniel 9:27 is, “And one week will establish the covenant with many….” It does not say “he will establish.” Is that your point? The antecedent for he would not be God.

            The Greek for “establish” is dunamosei. That is the t;hird person singular future tense of dunamoo. It could just as easily have been translated “he will establish” because it is t;hird person singular.

            • Hi James,

              Here is the whole passage:

              26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations. 27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

              After Christ The Lord was crucified and rose from the grave, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. When it says “he shall destroy” in verse 26, it is speaking of Christ. This is easy to know