The evidence is overwhelming. Jesus Christ Really Existed.
Did Jesus Really Exist? Where is the proof from non-Bible sources that he is real?
These questions and others like it are often asked by Bible skeptics and atheists alike. This article will show that not only is there historical evidence (from secular sources as well as Christian) that Jesus Christ was real and existed, but also that Jesus Christ is the most documented and historically verifiable figure in antiquity.
Historical Evidence of Jesus Christ’s Existence From Sources Outside the Bible
Non Biblical sources
Jospehus did not believe Jesus was the Son of God. But he wrote about him.
There are many secular historians who lived in the century after the death of Jesus Christ who confirmed his existence. Here are some of them:
Flavius Josephus
According to his Wikipedia entry: “Titus Flavius Josephus (37 – c. 100), was a 1st-century Romano-Jewish historian and hagiographer of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD and the First Jewish–Roman War, which resulted in the Destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70.”
His most important works were The Jewish War (c. 75) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94). The Jewish War recounts the Jewish revolt against Roman occupation (66–70). Antiquities of the Jews recounts the history of the world from a Jewish perspective for an ostensibly Roman audience. These works provide valuable insight into 1st century Judaism and the background of Early Christianity.
Josephus was a Jew who did not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God or Christianity. In The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:
“Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.” (source)
Later Josephus writes:
“But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.” (source)
Josephus considered one of the greatest historians of antiquity, independently provides proof and evidence that Jesus was a real person who did exist and also confirms the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross under the orders of Pontius Pilate, thus confirming the Biblical account as well.
Tacitus
Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman Historian who lived from 55-120AD. In 115 AD, P. Cornelius Tacitus wrote the following passage that refers to Jesus (called “Christus,” which means “The Messiah”) in book 15, chapter 44 of The Annals after a six-day fire burned much of Rome:
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.” (source)
Despite the fact the clearly despised Christianity as a “mischievous superstition”, Tacitus no less confirms once again the existence of Jesus and His crucifixion on the cross, it also states Pontius Pilate as the procurator who oversaw the crucifixion again giving non-Biblical proof of Jesus’ existence as recorded in the Bible.
Pliny The Younger
Pliny The Younger wrote of his persecution of Christians.
Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus, (61 AD – ca. 112 AD) : “better known as Pliny the Younger, was a lawyer, author, and magistrate of Ancient Rome. According to Wikipedia: “Pliny is known for his hundreds of surviving letters, which are an invaluable historical source for the time period. Many are addressed to reigning emperors or to notables such as the historian, Tacitus. Pliny himself was a notable figure, serving as an imperial magistrate under Trajan (reigned AD 98–117). Pliny was considered an honest and moderate man, consistent in his pursuit of suspected Christian members according to Roman law, and rose through a series of Imperial civil and military offices, the cursus honorum.”
In his correspondence with the emperor Trajan (Epistulae X.96) he reported on his actions against the followers of Christ. He asks the Emperor for instructions dealing with Christians and explained that he forced Christians to curse Christ under painful torturous inquisition:
“They were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of a meal–but ordinary and innocent food.” (source)
So not only was Pliny aware of Jesus Christ, he also provides description of the activities of the early church. In a later writing he details persecution against Christians:
“Even this practice, however, they had abandoned after the publication of my edict, by which, according to your orders, I had forbidden political associations. I therefore judged it so much more the necessary to extract the real truth, with the assistance of torture, from two female slaves, who were styled deaconesses: but I could discover nothing more than depraved and excessive superstition.
In the meanwhile, the method I have observed towards those who have denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were Christians; if they confessed it I repeated the question twice again, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed. For whatever the nature of their creed might be, I could at least feel not doubt that contumacy and inflexible obstinacy deserved chastisement. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.” (source)
So here we see that not only did Pliny not follow the Christian faith, he was torturing Christians and threatening death against them. And he even records that under threat of execution (just for believing in Jesus Christ as God) the early church members refused to deny their faith in Jesus. This is remarkable evidence of Jesus’ existence outside of the Bible.
Julius Africanus and Tallus
Sextus Julius Africanus (c.160 – c.240) was a Christian traveller and historian of the late 2nd and early 3rd century AD. He is important chiefly because of his influence on Eusebius, on all the later writers of Church history among the Fathers, and on the whole Greek school of chroniclers
Julius Africanus quotes the writings of Tallus, who was a first century non-Christian historian. In his Chronicles, Africanus quoting the historian Tallus, explains the reason for it being so dark during the day time on the day of crucifixion of Jesus Christ:
“An eclipse of the sun’unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died.” Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.
The importance of this quote is two fold as it shows: 1) non-Christian proof of Jesus’ existence and 2) yet another confirmation of the Bible’s account of Jesus’ crucifixion. The Bible states in reference to the time Jesus was put on the cross: “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour” The “sixth hour” is noon and the ninth hour is 3:00PM. Thus we see that the historian Thallus was trying to explain the odd occurrence of the sky being dark at noon during the crucifxion of Jesus as an eclipse. Africanus also quotes the secular scholar Phlegon, a Greek Historian who lived in the 2nd century AD and also wrote of an eclipse occuring on the day Jesus was crucified. This again provides proof from a non-Christian source that confirms the account of Jesus being a real person who lived as well as confirming the account of His crucifixion straight from the Bible.
Lucian of Samosate
Lucian (Born 115 AD) was a well-known Greek satirist and traveling lecturer. More than eighty works bear his name. He mocked Christians in his writing, but at the same time provided evidence that Jesus really did exist:
“He was second only to that one whom they still worship today, the man in Palestine who was crucified because he brought this new form of initiation into the world.”
“Having convinced themselves that they are immortal and will live forever, the poor wretches despise death and most willingly give themselves to it. Moreover, that first lawgiver of theirs persuaded them that they are all brothers the moment they transgress and deny the Greek gods and begin worshiping that crucified sophist and living by his laws.”
“They scorn all possessions without distinction and treat them as community property. They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time.”
So again, even though Lucian does not mention Jesus by name, there is no doubt he is speaking of the Jesus as he confirms: 1) that he was crucified in “Palestine” (the name of Israel at that time), 2) had followers who believed in eternal life and 3) that they were all equal in Jesus Christ. Lucian even mentions that Christians deny all other gods and believe on “faith alone.” This again is all in accordance with the Bible’s clear statements about the Christian faith and provides even more evidence from outside of the Bible that Jesus, the “man in Palestine” did really exist.
Seutonius
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus commonly known as Suetonius (ca. 69/75 – after 130), was a Roman historian belonging to the equestrian order in the early Imperial era. His most important surviving work is a set of biographies of twelve successive Roman rulers, from Julius Caesar to Domitian, entitled De Vita Caesarum. The description of his writings states:
The emperor Claudius reigned 41 to 54 AD. Suetonius reports his dealings with the eastern Roman Empire, that is, with Greece and Macedonia, and with the Lycians, Rhodians, and Trojans. He then reports that the emperor expelled the Jews from Rome, since they “constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Christ” (Judaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit). The name appears in manuscripts of Suetonius as Chrestus, a form also used by the Roman historian Tacitus to refer to Chrestiani. (source)
Skeptics will point to the different spelling to say “that’s not Jesus he’s talking about!” but again, with the totality of evidence, it’s very obvious that followers of Jesus in the Roman Empire were persecuted by Roman authorities. So it certainly falls in line with the other historical accounts. And there are a number of sources the support the history of Christians in the Roman empire who followed Jesus Christ and being punished for it.
The Bible is Historical Proof That Jesus Existed
The amount of New Testament manuscript evidence of Jesus Christ is greater than any other figure in antiquity.
There is a great logical fallacy among Bible skeptics, atheists and those who like to challenge Christianity that says when discussing the historical aspects of the Bible “you can’t use the Bible as proof that Jesus existed. You must use non-Bible sources!!” To which this author says, “why not?” The four Gospels of the Bible are bibliographical accounts of the life of Jesus. The normal objective measure of the reliability of historical documents is: 1) The number of available copies of ancient manuscripts and 2) the time span between the original version and the date of those copies still in existence today. When examined under this standard, the Bible proves to provide a treasure trove of proof and evidence that Jesus really existed.
Some of the earliest manuscript fragments of the New Testament are the John Rylands Fragment, Chester Beatty Papyrus and the Bodmer Papyrus which were written between 50-100AD. Copies of these papyri were reproduced in 125-200AD, meaning that the time span between the originals and the copies still in existence today is 29 years to 130 years, putting all these manuscripts beings written anywhere from 50-100 years after the death of Jesus Christ. Now some may object and say “Hold on! These manuscripts were written years after Jesus died. There’s no way they could be reliable!” But any expert on ancient documents would disagree.
Let’s look at some of the more famous and universally accepted historical documents and see how they match up with the Bible:
Plato — Plato wrote his works from 427-347 BC. The earliest manuscript copy of Plato’s writing in existence today was written in 900 AD. That is 1,200 years after Plato’s death! And there are only 2 copies of these manuscripts in existence. (source)
Julius Caesar — One of the most celebrated and trusted historical figures. Caesar lived from 100-44 BC and the earliest manuscript copy of his writings dates back to 900 AD, putting our best evidence of Caesar ever existing 1,000 years after his death. And there are 10 copies of ancient manuscripts of Caesar’s Gallic Wars. (source) So if you question the Bible based on when it was written, being “translated so many times” (it was not – we still have the same Greek manuscripts today) and still question whether Jesus existed, then you must also be really sure that Julius Caesar and Plato were completely fictional characters and never really existed.
Homer — Homer, who historians are not even sure ever really existed even today, is credited with writing the Iliad in ca 900 BC. The earliest manuscript copy of the Iliad dates to 400 BC. Meaning the only proof of Homer or the Iliad being accurate is from 500 years after the death of Homer. Additionally there are 643 copies of ancient manuscripts of the Iliad written over the centuries that when compared against each other by experts have a 95.3 consistency and accuracy, making it one of the most reliable and proven documents of antiquity. (source)
That is of course, until you compare it to the New Testament. The New Testament manuscripts date to less than 100 years after the death of Christ. Additionally there are over 5,600 ancient manuscript copies of the New Testament giving it more copies to a degree that dwarfs any other figure of ancient history (to view actual copies of some of these ancient manuscripts, see here). And they have a 99% accuracy when compared to each other. The evidence is not even comparable. And it all points to Jesus Christ. The record of the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ has more evidence and proof than any other person from antiquity.
The Proof and Evidence is Clear – Jesus Christ Really Existed
The most amazing conclusion in all of this is not that Jesus really existed — it is that He still exists. And He sits in Heaven at the right hand of God offering forgiveness to those who will not just believe He was a regular man, but that He as the Son of God, gave His life on that same cross that so many historians knew about, to take the punishment for sins that all of humanity has committed. It just takes faith and trust in that sacrifice to receive him. Jesus said: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. – Revelation 3:20-21.
Jesus wants us to believe in Him so we can be freely forgiven of the sins we have committed in our lives, have eternal life and reign with Him. So now that it is established that He existed, why not take the time to get to know Jesus Christ and who He said He is from His historically-verifiable perspective? Your eternal life may depend on it.
Thank you.
Thanks for the article, I’m a Christian but my husband isn’t – we have a twelve year old son who sort of believes but his dad ridicules the whole existence of God. The one great thing that made my hairs stand up on the back of my neck was a visit to Rome in the 90’s. We visited the Church of St Sabastian, it was quite small but beautifully old and charming, the hidden gem however lay beneath the building in the catacombs. In early Christian times this would be the place where Mass was said because of persecution, when we visited they had just unearthed a scribble on a wall which was addressed to Peter and Paul – it asked them to pray for Victor. The inscription dated back to the time of the apostles so to know they had actually said Mass there was incredible.
I’m not sure I understand, you visited a church and that made your hair stand up? What about that visit makes it anything other than a visit to a church? The history overwhelmed you? The greater the story, the more proof you need to make it valid. Your husband’s stand is accurate, there is no evidence of the supernatural. Period.
You obviously didn’t read it fully……..I think you’d get on with my husband rather than me.
I did read it and I still can’t see how you come to that conclusion.
and this article, NO ONE of ALL this “evidence” is of actual eye witnesses, nothing but hearsay past from one person to another.
Unbelievable!
Religious fanatics will believe anything!
If you read the title, you would’ve known that this article purposely set out to prove Christ’s existence with just extra-biblical sources. The New Testament is clear about eyewitnesses – couple of the gospel writers were witnesses and Paul writes of witnesses that were still alive during his writers, as some examples.
1. The gospel writers are unknown and nothing in the bible was written at the time of the events, so they are not contemporary accounts, they are hearsay.
2. Paul never met jesus, he talks about a non-human entity and everything he talks about is thru revelations, as in hallucinations.
3. What you do need is contemporary accounts of this Jesus, but there are none.
4. What you have are copies of copies, with contradictions, errors, omissions, edits, supernatural claims, a jury who decided what to use and what to leave out, and a lot of blood to make people believe in this superstition.
5. You have forgeries as in Josephus.
6. Jesus supposedly met with the top politicians and even was brought up to prove his supernatural powers. None of this was recorded by any historian of that time period.
There are NO records of this guy, NONE.
Why would anyone bother with forgeries if jesus was real? Hum…
1. Mark knew Peter, Luke knew Paul, and John was one of Jesus’ apostles. Of course, modern “scholars” want to deny all this. Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians contains the earliest Christian creed that was going around even before Paul’s dramatic conversion about 3 years after Jesus’ death. This is why Paul mentions that most of the 500 witnesses of the Resurrected Christ and others are still alive and can confirm. Paul met with the apostles, first-hand witnesses of Christ.
2. Not only did Paul know the eyewitnesses, but Jesus also appeared to him in His heavenly glory as He did to Ananias. You don’t seem to understand how hallucinations are caused, since Paul was in no mental state to hallucinate about Jesus.
3. Of course, no one was following with writing material and taking notes as the events were happening, but Jesus told His apostles that the Holy Spirit will remind them and the NT writings were affirmed by contemporaries – which is why Paul approached the apostles.
4. The thousands of copies we have in possession line up with word-for-word translations we have today. Any “contradictions” are misunderstandings in meaning and your jury claim is a conspiracy that can’t be backed up.
5. Even IF Josephus has a forgery, what is your argument about Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Julius Africanus, Lucian, Seutonius, Celsus, Ignatius, Polycarp, and the Jewish Talmud? Were they all forgeries, too?
6. Jesus met with Pilate and Herod, a prefect and tetrarch. Both found no wrong in Jesus. The Pilate Stone is the only contemporaneous evidence of Pilate’s existence, so why believe Pilate existed? Anyway, historians do mention this – Josephus, Tacitus – but you reject them as “forgeries”. The eruption of Mount Vesuvius was not recorded by any historian of that time period, but by an eyewitness account of Pliny the Younger. Why do we not doubt that? Besides, with the eruption, the sacking of Jerusalem, and events over time, it is easy for things to get lost or destroyed.
You can deny all you want, but the records are there.
1. Again, more hearsay. Paul dramatic conversion? You mea his epileptic seizure or drug hallucination? LMAO Just more junk.
2. LMAO “appeared to him in his heavenly glory” Bajajajajaja Right and Santa is real.
3. More garbage, another cult talking nonsense. Why didn’t jesus write his own stuff? Hum…
4. Missunderstanding in meaning, meaning that the book is so pathetically written that it leads to misunderstandings. LMAO 30,000 sects of christianity alone is all I need to know that the bible is garbage.
5. None of those are contemporaries, they are only repeating what christians of the day were talking about. Nothing but a news cast of garbage going around. Completely meaningless.
6. Give me evidence that jesus met with these guys OUTSIDE the bible. You’ll find ZERO. We did NOT believe that Pilate was real until we found that stone. Now we have at least some evidence that he might have existed. We believe the eruption because we have records of it outside the bible. The sacking of Jerusalem and other events didn’t stop us from finding historical artifacts for others that existed before jesus. Besides, why would your god allow for his evidence to be destroyed? Hum…
Buddy you have nothing, sorry.
1. This “hearsay” is accepted by biblical scholars of all walks of life, so you’re alone there. It’s okay, though, I understand you know the consequences of accepting it.
2. Comparing a vision of Christ to Santa is a faulty, let alone weak, comparison.
3. Who am I to say? You’ll get the chance to ask Him one day.
4. Any misunderstandings in meaning is due to lack of knowledge. The things most churches disagree on aren’t the core beliefs of Christianity.
5. So the contemporary Christians wouldn’t know what they were saying? Tell me, why would they willingly die for “garbage” if they didn’t see the resurrected Christ as they claimed? And no, 500 people cannot all hallucinate the same thing.
6. Your search for “evidence” will always be fruitless since you will deny and explain away anything. It’s right under your nose. Everything we find affirms the Scripture and yet you deny it as the main source. Sounds like you just want to reject the bible. He has left enough to believe, but the heart is in rebellion. Keep seeking with all your heart and I pray He draws you to Him.
I used to be like you. I believe your an image of the creator and your fighting yourself. You probably believe more than most and that’s why your fighting so hard. Why would you even read an article like this or take the time to write back over and over. None of these things prove Christ’s existence. Christ will prove his existence when you truly knock and then he will answers. Until then you will never understand why we believe, it’s not logical, it’s a mystical experience between the person asking and God. It’s something that can’t be explained, it must be experienced and once experienced can never be taken away. I understand that you cant grasp that part and you must make excuse why we believe. I’m sorry that so many of us are very bad examples of Christianity and we can be full of contradiction and hypocrisy. I’m probably the chief among them but we are still fallen and trying to change. The only difference between myself and you is I have decided to pick up my cross and follow, even though I drop it a lot. I’m not writing you hoping to convert, convince or defend my faith. I’m writing to you out of Christian love and the remembrance of what it was like to push God away. If you ever decide to finally stop running, then go somewhere quit and with a real desire ask, knock and he the “Christ” will answer. I know you don’t want to hear it but I will remember you and pray for you. Feel free to write back whatever you want. I have heard it all and even if you were her in person threatening to kill me I would still love and pray for you because you are an image of my creator.
first are you illiterate ? these items sighted above should be proof enough!(these were not christian sources and are dated to be at the time of Christ ) . Also t there are 55,00 manuscripts in Greek that are housed , with 8 ,000 fragments..Or do you need your colered crayons and a pencil to understand it!
Stupid. Did you not hear what he said? There is not proof of Julius Caesar’s existence whicg date to 44 B.C, we have some written by Plato over 2 centuries after his death. If say, we do not have evidence of bible because it was not written at tiime of Jesus, Plato’ s writing were written mmany years later after Caesar’s existence-why should we trust them?
I think you have your facts wrong. Plato lived 400 years BEFORE Cesar.
@Dorian
You are one of the most prolific Blathering Blatherist’s I’ve ever heard speak.
You build assumptions from one point to the next.
Bridge them by your own twisted-logic, that is without evidence as you ask for other to PRODUCE EVIDENCE
Sadly you had one or more abusive caregivers that did this non-listening / always accusing act to you. This is learned/programmed behavior, so part of me hits the brakes in my rebuking you, because I know I’m shooting a victim.
But you’re way too comfortable steamrolling good kind people to elevate yourself as some other-worldly genius of the obvious that can erase Christ Jesus’ existence with a couple of correctly worded blathering sentences.
You don’t listen to ANY EVIDENCE in the article
I don’t even CARE if you read any of the Bible, because I have enough experience to KNOW that even if you did, you wouldn’t have a CLUE HOW TO INTERPRET PROPERLY what you were reading and what context meant from book to book.
And you disregard this woman giving her personal experience.
You disregard it and devalue her.
You know who does that to people?? Narcissists, and it’s a typical form of “GASLIGHTING” you blathering —
I gotta get you on my Podcast and shred your lame-brain
Self-important minister of unkindness what you are.
You’re a ‘Preacher’ pal, don’t think for a second you’re any different than some fake-Christian “Preacher” that twists the Gospel of Grace.
You’re no different.
To: ISSY
Sorry you had to be subjected to this “advanced wolf in sheep’s clothing” Narcissistic Personality Disordered dumb dumb
Keep praying hun, and God Bless you.
There is a consensus between scholars of antiquity (atheists, non-christian and christian), I believe it’s around 90%, that all agree on the historicity of Jesus. So why not study up on the man and the the things he did and said, and build a personal relationship with him through prayer. Just try it out- what do you have to lose by trying.
@Dorian
…and anti-religious/anti-Christian zealots/fanatics will continue to deny everything despite being handed the proof they’re asking for. Lose the anger, READ the information above and check the sources provided. Maybe do a little research on those who have mentioned Jesus in their historical writings and educate yourself on the eyewitness accounts that you wrongly claim are nonexistent. Try to do it without the biased, fanatical anti-Christian attitude and anger.
It’s obvious from some of your comments you didn’t read anything above, but we both know you’re not actually interested in reading anything. You simply read the title of this article and wanted to spread your anger and hatred of Christianity and argue against something you claim not to believe in.
The information above does in fact prove there are non-biblical references to a man named Jesus who lived during the time period referenced in the Bible. You’re denial doesn’t make these non-biblical references false or nonexistent. That denial just means you’re unwilling to consider anything beyond your anti-Christian beliefs. People like you simply want to deny everything, ask for proof, then deny it, ask for more proof, then deny that too. And you’ll berate, ridicule and insult anyone that doesn’t believe as you believe to get your unreasonable, biased, hate-filled opinion on the web. You’ll flat ignore anything that lends credibility to something you claim/choose to not believe.
We get it, you’ve CHOSEN not to believe in anything Christian and nothing will sway that decision. You have zero evidence to back up your beliefs, but you’re still entitled to those believes despite the evidence that proves you’re wrong.
It’s time for you to take your hate, anger and anti-Christian rants and move on.
I think I understand you now, you were just impressed with the fact that you visited a place with historical value. I agree, it’s pretty cool.
But since the article was talking about proof of christ, i went the other way. My apologies.
But your husband is still correct, a nice church doesn’t make a christ real.
There is plent of evidence that Jesus existed. Plenty.
People choose to believe or not.
For those who believe, no proof is necessary.
For those who don’t believe, no proof is enough.
So first you state that there is plenty of evidence, but don’t provide one single shred of that evidence. Then you go on and say that you don’t even need evidence, that all you need to do is believe. Then you speak for others without having a clue about what others actually think.
I would acknowledge that he existed, IF you provide EVIDENCE. REAL evidence, like something he PERSONALLY wrote, or something the Romans wrote about him, hell something ANYBODY wrote that is NOT 50 years AFTER the stuff supposedly happened and written by someone who NEVER met him.
The guy was supposed to be a FAMOUS rebel who met with the emperor and the high priests amongst others and supposedly had a huge following, and while we know of other idiots who were NOT at this presumed caliber, we have NOTHING on this jesus, NOTHING. Not a single blip from ANY contemporary historian and what we do have that is not contemporary is believed to be forgeries done by no other than the forgery master himself Sibelius, who ones claimed he had a letter from jesus himself! LMAO!!!
Now why would anyone bother with forgeries if the guy was real? Hum…
So keep up with the fallacies and contradictions, it’s lots of fun
Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” [28] Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” [29] Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:24-29 ESV)
Apparently you need to believe or disbelieve………so stick your hand into Jesus’ side! I’m sure this can be used in your life as it was also metaphor to say to those that are doubters that you need to dig deep for your answers since the answers provided aren’t sufficient.
Dig deep my friend and the answers will come. Also, be of open mind to accept the fact that you may not find ALL your answers as some of what is taught is a mystery to us and our limited understanding and perceptions.
Richard Dawkins has proposed that Saint Thomas be the patron saint of scientists. Thomas, of course, could be considered the first empirically motivated skeptic who, only after experiencing the resurrected Christ, became an unabashed believer in Jesus’s divinity. Thomas Dixon of Queen Mary University of London, however, suggests that Thomas’s fault was not being willing to rely on the trustworthy, empirically based testimony of his fellow disciples who reported that they had SEEN the resurrected Jesus. “Scientific knowledge, like religious belief, is produced by collaborative acts of observation which, in turn, rely on the observations, testimony and inferences of others (e.g., in the literature of scientific journals). Richard Dawkins suggests that Doubting Thomas should be the patron saint of scientists. In fact he is patron saint of the blind, which is perhaps more fitting. If Thomas does stand for the view that the true basis of knowledge is unaided individual sense perception, then his is indeed an unscientific world and a world of blindness — a world where, in a phrase of Galileo’s, “one wanders in vain through a dark labyrinth.” Galileo admired those who believed in the sun-centered system before the advent of the telescope: ‘They have by sheer force of intellect done such violence to their own senses as to prefer what reason told them over that which sense experience plainly showed them to be the case.’ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thomas-dixon/doubting-thomas-a-patron-_b_3459554.html
Well said!!
Teddy, my “well said” comment was meant to go under your comment. Very well said. For those who don’t believe no proof is enough.
Don’t worry. No one will force you into heaven against your will. But we really hope you’ll open your eyes to the God who made you and loves you dearly. <3
No one would have to force me to a real heaven, except that your idea of heaven is a not exactly what a heaven should be.
You see, your idea of heaven, is very similar to that of ISIS, where everyone who doesn’t believe in their god, should burn in hell.
I don’t find the idea of knowing other humans are burning in fire for eternity very compelling, nor worthy of being called heaven.
If that’s your idea of heaven, they you can keep it, along with the god who created with it.
Dorian, please tell us what do you consider to be a “real” heaven.
Dorian, the fact that you’re on this site and engaged in debate over Jesus’ existence tells me you are seeking and that deep down you want to believe in something, but as a rational, thinking person (which is good) you find this difficult, and mainstream Christian’s [quoting passages from the bible] don’t make it any more convincing. I feel ya brother.
Practise right thinking and right actions, incorporate some type of mental, emotional and physical cleansing rituals into your life and pray to Jesus (Yeshua)…ask the Holy Spirit to be present in your life and to deliver a sign that God’s love is real. Do this earnestly when you wake up and before you go to bed every day and see what happens. Take care buddy!
Dorian you are nothing more than an internet troll. You blather on yet do not provide any proof the God and Christ do not exist.
” there is no evidence of the supernatural. Period.”
We can all agree that the big Bang marks the beginning of space and time according to Penrose and Hawking. Einstein believed a in a creator who started it, Though it wasn’t a personal God, because of all the evil in the world, another great error he made, if evil didn’t exist we could not chose from good and evil. That’s why we got free will so people can chose to love god in eternity or reject God in eternity, so God does not send anyone to hell, you did that youreself because u chosed not to accept God’s love. The Big bang is the best evidence for God there is, many scientists does not ignore the evidence of design. Anthony Flew one of many. saying he “had to go where the evidence leads.”!
So to determine if the God in the Bible is true we can test the claims. and the bible passes this test, no other holy book does that.
First Truth claim 1:
Genesis 1:1 in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Science today has proved the claim made by the prophets some 2500 years ago!
i’d say one should expect to see the evidence through science if God is true.
The existence of “evil” is not a proof of the existence of a God. “Good” and “evil” are merely two different perspectives created by men to distinguish certain acts and behaviours. For example, praising Jesus is good, but praising the Devil is bad. Eating health food is good, but eating junky food is bad. Being a law-abiding person is good, but being an outlaw, a criminal, is bad.
A guy who like eating healthy food will agree with me that junky food is bad. However, a guy likes junky food will, instead, disagree with me, and will apply that junky food is good, and healthy food is bad. Just a matter of perspective, huh?
Many scientists fashion the creation due to the lack of proofs and knowlege about what happened before the universe origin. The answer is still unknown, but I’m sure that is not a divine will. How do I know? Okay, let’s explain. In ancient times the people used to make rituals for the rainy days to appear. They used to believe that rain was a will of the gods. After many years later, we discovered that rain has nothing to do with a god’s will, but it’s simple a cloud that carries too much mass of water. The lightining was also claimed as a sing of a god’s fury. After years we discovered that was just, again, a cloud’s fault.
We may not have the answer of what happened before the universe creation yet, but we also have not had access to all information needed to discover this. In some years, perhaps, we may discover what happened in that time.
Oh, and about the bible passing the test, there’s this argument that I so damn like! In the bible it is said that the plants, living beings that need the sunlight in order to survive, were created before the creation of the sun. Furthermore, according to the prophets of that time, the Earth was the center of the universe! How odd is that, right? The Earth is not even the center of it’s own galaxy, who would say the universe!!
Alexander. Hi!
Please reread what you just wrote. I want to respond to you, but I just need to be clear. Is what you just submitted really what you’re going with as your arguments? I will await your response before I continue.
Thank you. I look forward to your reply.
Hi Alexander,
Thanks for your comments. I wanted to respond to one part of your post:
God is able to create light all on His own. This is the first light that is created in Scripture:
After the Second Coming of Christ, when Satan is defeated and a new Earth is created, we again see that there is no need for a sun because God now dwells openly with humanity and supplies His own same light:
So the Bible is consistent from its beginning to end, that God’s own Divine Light is capable of filling the Earth and eliminating a need for the sun completely. So certainly a plant can survive on this light.
As for the “prophets of that time” saying the Earth is the center of the universe, where is your evidence of this? You are not providing any evidence to back up your claim. I awiat your response.
Alexander, all you are doing is making claims.
You have no evidence even in your own book about what you are saying.
In no verse those it say that god is providing light for the plants, you are simply making this up. The verse you quote relates to after he supposedly comes back.
And didn’t’t Jesus promise his deciles that they would see the return before they died? And here we are 2000 years later. Sounds like you shouldn’t hold your breath.
Why don’t you explain to us how genesis one has man before the plants and genesis two after the plants?
Sounds to me that you have been indoctrinated by a church at an early age and can’t tell reality from fiction.
Three more questions.
1 Why did your god create Satan?
2. Why doesn’t your god just kill Satan?
3. Why do you have to defend your omnipotent god?
Hi Dorian,
Once again, you are trying to have it both ways. If you are going to argue the existence of God, but then discuss His nature and character, you are inherently contradicting yourself. Unless at this point you are an agnostic and not an atheist. Is that the case?
Dorian,
1) God DID NOT create satan. Satan was an angel of God who wanted to overcome him, so God ‘threw’ him out of heaven. Satan is a fallen-angel.
2) I believe God doesn’t kill Satan because satan is the way for men to resist God. God doesn’t want to force himself upon us. Satan is his way of giving us a choice to believe in him.
3) we don’t ‘have’ to defend him, we chose to do so, because when you love someone, you can’t resist wanting to tell everyone about how good he is.
So this god creates an evil mind and throws him with everyone on the planet just to see if people can resist evil and follow him?
Wow, how many illogical fallacies can live in one paragraph?
Do you throw your children with a madman just to find out if they love you?
Isn’t your god all knowing? If so, he knows the future and has no need to play silly games.
Lastly, you say he doesn’t want to force anyone to love him, and that is very interesting, specially when you consider the options available by him.
You either believe in him or spend eternity in fire.
If that is not an ultimatum, I don’t know what is.
There is no choice, he is indeed forcing you to love him. What other choice do you have? Burning for eternity?
Give it a rest, you don’t stand a chance with your flawed and childish reasoning.
Quotes by Dorian; You either believe in him or spend eternity in fire.
If that is not an ultimatum, I don’t know what is.
There is no choice, he is indeed forcing you to love him. What other choice do you have? Burning for eternity?
Dorian, I wish I could tell you it is as simple as believing or not. From some verses in the Bible it appears it is that simple but in truth we are no longer capable of believing. When sin came into the world, all mankind died. The entire mankind is born in a spiritually dead state and we must be quickened from our dead state and become alive. That is to be born again. Regeneration is a complete turn around; what you used to love (the world and all it offers) you come to hate and what you used to hate (Bible, God, religion, salvation) you come to love. It becomes so precious to you that you cannot do without it. It becomes your life! God doesn’t give us an ultimatum—love Me or eternally burn. He demands that our responsibility is to pick up the cross, deny ourselves, and follow Him. If we never come to learn to repent and follow Him on this side of eternity, we certainly won’t be able to do so on the other side. I sincerely hope you may experience what John Newton wrote when he used the Bible to write Amazing Grace—I once was blind but now I see!
Dorain:
If God doesn’t exist, 1) what about all the prophecies that were written in the bible that came true many years later?
here is a link to these: http://sunandshield.wordpress.com/2007/04/04/10-prophecies-predicted-in-the-bible-fulfilled-in-history/
2) people who were atheists said they witnessed heaven when they were near death. I used to think that maybe it’s all made up, but people from all around the world who clearly don’t know each other said similar things of what they have experienced, and i don’t think that’s a coincidence. People who never heard of Jesus (Yes there are some), said that a man with pierced palms appeared to them in times of need\danger.
3) Through all ages the majority of humankind believed there was a God. A lot of people who are way smarter than all of us believe in him. Billions of people are not idiots, you know, they believe for a reason. If there wasn’t a God people wouldn’t have found it so easy to believe in one.
4) you may think, why doesn’t God show himself to me so i can believe in him? God said in the bible that he would. the prophet Isaiah said that God would give his people a sign. A virgin would bear a son who would be called “God with us” (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23). Isaiah said this Son would be called, “Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6). The prophet also said that this child would die for His people’s sins before seeing His life prolonged and honored by God (Isaiah 53). According to the New Testament, Jesus claimed to be that Messiah. Under the oversight of a Roman governor named Pontius Pilate, He was crucified on charges that He claimed to be the king of Israel and that He had represented Himself as being equal with God (John 5:18).
Even if you argue that maybe Jesus said these things because he knew about the prophecy and wanted to fulfill it, some things he couldn’t control, like his place of birth which is also written in the prophecy.
5) I found a site which says the proof of a God, is Israel itself, here’s the link, it’s very interesting and since i live in Israel, and have studied it’s history in high school, i can assure you the historical information in there is true (and you could also look it up). The link:
http://www.lamblion.com/enewsletter1/new_enewsletter_template_130731.html
Don’t call me childish. I’m not here to force you into believing in God. You asked a question and i was trying to help you in your search here and bring up some points. I’m also learning new things and trying to think from your point of view. But you’re closed minded (no offence). it feels like you’re here to prove us wrong rather then learn.
So if God didn’t create Satan who did?
You say Satan was an Angel. Who created the Angels?
Was it God?
Or do they not need a creator.
If it was God then God did in fact create Satan
If they do not need a creator then why does anything else need one.
Further, Angels were not gifted with Free Will, their purpose is to fulfil God’s plan. That means Satan can only have rebelled because God wanted a rebellion.
Hi Po Veritas,
Thanks for your comment. I would like to address your question about Satan:
The bible is clear that Satan “fell into condemnation.” In other words, his own sinful rebellion led to his downfall. Angels of course have free will. You will find no verse in the Bible that says otherwise. Nor will you find any verse that says God wanted Satan to rebel. You are injecting your own opinions and trying to pass them off as Biblical statements but respecfully, there is no Scripture supporting what you are saying.
As for fulfilling God’s plan – that is something we all do. God’s ultimate plan will reconcile Him to all who want to be with Him. Those who reject His free offer of forgiveness for the thousands of sins we willingly commit through our lives, will be judged guilty and condemned right alongside Satan – spending eternity in Hell and the Lake of Fire.
But it all comes down to choice. Satan chose his path and his fate is sealed. Humans today who are alive still have an opportunity to repent, believe in The Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and receive eternal life. What have you chosen?
Whosoever shall call upon the name of The Lord shall be saved. -Romans 10:13.
How To Get To Heaven
https://beginningandend.com/how-to-get-to-heaven/
There is proof of the supernatural… But you can’t use the natural to prove the supernatural…
So how can you prove it? If you are in the natural world, and the poof is in the supernatural world, we’re do you see the proof?
Do you leave the natural wold in a magic bus to the supernatural world and then come back?
Why don’t you bring the evidence back with you?
You are not making any sense.
That’s the thing, the fact that the natural exists shows that something supernatural created it… Here’s the thing, whether you believe in God or not, if you try and conclude how we got here you have to conclude with a supernatural process…
No we don’t.
A natural process doesn’t arrive from a supernatural one, otherwise it wouldn’t be natural.
We can explain the universe without a god, but we can’t explain and all loving god that abandoned his children after they make the single mistake of eating an apple that then condemns all humanity. That nobody with a rational mind can ever explain.
Hi Dorian,
We can explain the earth being created by God—with a bang. It was “without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep.” In other words it was a big mess and therefore it is highly likely that God created it with a big bang and thereafter fashioned it into a beautiful planet. [As an aside He created light on the 1st day and created the sun, moon and stars on the 4th day; therefore there was light before the sun and moon etc were created. God is Light!]
Adam was created perfect and upright, completely capable of obeying God. Through Eve taking of the forbidden fruit, he chose not to to and through him all mankind are fallen. Our finite minds cannot comprehend what it must have been for Adam after he disobeyed God. Immediately he went from being a friend to an enemy: defensive, proud, unrighteous, no longer perfect, i.e., “the woman whom Thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree and I did eat,..end quote…, not willing to humble himself and admit guilt. The short period in Paradise was a time of probation and human man was created capable of obeying God but failed. If God had not intervened by offering His Son, no one on earth could have been saved. But glory be to God, He did and in Gen 15:3 He outlined the salvation that would be available through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Because sin came into this world through the form of natural mankind, ransom had to be made in the same form; therefore Christ was manifest in the flesh. It is an incomprehensible great wonder that He was willing to come to this earth and be humiliated, abused and crucified in order to save a miserable people who are so unwilling—I only have to read your blogs to see how unwilling we are. And Adam had to live with this great sin for over 900 years, knowing that all mankind was punished for his disobedience.
In your accusations you are bringing God down to our level and that’s impossible. He is God and His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. He is eternal, everywhere present, a spirit, the heavens of heaven cannot contain Him, and is not to be understood with our human mind. In Deut 29:29 He tells us that the hidden things are of God (and therefore we don’t need to delve into them) and the revealed things are for us and our children. Why God created angels who He knew would fall, is something we will not ever understand; nor why God’s most glorious creation, human man, was allowed to fall. Once Adam’s sin becomes your sin personally, then it no longer matters. Then what matters is that we are sinners and not just sinners in the word sense but lost sinners in the sense that we have forfeited everything when we turned our back to God in Paradise. We are lost, totally lost, worthy to be cast away. It’s no longer Adam who did this but I did it! And then to know that we can never be reconciled with a holy, righteous and good-doing God except through the merits of His beloved Son.
Science just confirms what God has made but science cannot confirm God’s ways. The Bible tells us that mankind was created to glorify God but we all come short of the glory of God.
Your understanding of the world is that of a person from the dark ages.
You are most likely one of those people that refuse to take their kids to a doctor when they get sick and end watching them die of some curable decease.
You live in a superstitious world, full of ignorance and misconceptions of reality.
You are irresponsible and require the death and blood of another person to forgive your own mistakes.
You are self destructive and would love to watch the world burn just for the chance to see your invisible Jesus.
I’m sure you don’t work for NASA, but do yourself a favor, go read some real books, books of science and psychology, of history and technology.
The human brain can heal if you feed it.
Go get help.
LOL
No offense Dorian, but after reading all of your so called retorts u truly are a dunce. Let’s see if your blatant ignorance of God’s existence will work on the day of judgement. On that dreadful day, begging your creator for forgiveness and using the excuse “how was I to know” is not going to cut it; for our father in heaven knows your thoughts and motivation, he searches hearts and minds without effort and knows exactly why you chose not to believe in Him. This has nothing to do with “not” believing, but has everything to do with “not wanting” to believe. You reject God because you don’t like the idea of being judged by a higher power, you would rather live your life without care and concern of the possible consequences you may have to face after you perish. This is when your dirty actions and deeds will be exposed, you’d rather convince yourself that you will not have to answer to any of that. Like how you are so quick to belittle people who choose to believe in Him, people who have benefited greatly from God’s love and grace. That’s all I see from your ignorant posts in this forum, you throw your little insults and sarcasm out there towards anyone who dare express their love and belief in an almighty creator. That says a lot about your “flawed” character, which we are all flawed but yours is demon possessed. It’s no surprise that you are an atheist, because you obviously have no love in your heart for anyone and you have no concern about insulting people who believe in something that has enriched their lives and has given them hope in regards to salvation after this life. It is your choice to make the conscious effort to convince yourself that God doesn’t exist, that is your prerogative, but don’t try to deter others from believing in the One who created all of us, including you; although you may be possessed more by the devil than you are the holy father it doesn’t change the fact you were still created by God, whether you choose to admit it or not. Your defiance stems from fear, God knows this and it is this fear of judgement which brings on your irrational denial of something much greater than you. You will get your comeuppance when the time comes, but honestly I will pray for you and ask God to have mercy on your soul when your short time here on earth expires, then u finally come face to face with the One who is responsible for your very existence.
Hi Dorian,
I am still waiting for your empirical, verifiable proof of the origin of matter.
Matter cannot be created nor destroyed and I’m still waiting for your empirical evidence for your invisible and undetectable god.
There is evidence of God you just read it and also if you weren’t convinced by this article do your research
There is tons of proof of the Supernatural, if one looks for it. The biggest, and best natural piece of proof for Gods existence is the universe itself. Let’s go all the way back, to the very beginning, to the time that the Big Bang Theory speaks of, when everything came into existence. There was theoretically ‘this-and-that’ which exploded with tremendous energy…
But where did the ‘this-and-that’ come from? A natural law, (such as ‘the Law of Gravity) called the Law of Energy Conservation dictates that energy cannot naturally be created from nothing. If the Law of Energy Conservation says that energy cannot naturally come from nothing (just like gravity says one can’t pull oneself up by their shoestrings), then where did the initial energy come from that sets the whole Big Bang (Theory) into place?
A natural, observable law of the universe dictates that energy cannot naturally come from nothing… Logically then, the energy had to of supernaturally come from something!
A Creator.
An intelligent Designer.
Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” The more one researches with an open mind and a desire for truth, the more abundantly clear it becomes that there is a God.
The net energy of the universe is zero.
All the laws of the universe were created AFTER the Big Bang, not before.
We don’t really know what is beyond the Big Bang, but for you to claim that you do is a joke. You don’t know anything, you are simply repeating what your Christian friends tell you, which is a joke on its own because they are not physicists. They are just religious fanatics, just like you.
Go study physics instead of making childish comments.
Net energy of universe is zero? So the energy amount in universe is null? Wrong. Correct answer: net energy in universe is constant and surely bigger than nothing. You are delusional as you openly claim that the universe doesn’t exist. Perhaps you mean if everything would seize to vibrate then it would look like it’s zero. Simple example: A spring stores potential energy. Once released, it transfers the stored energy to some other object, which gains kinetic energy. It’s not null, energy is either here or there.
Laws of universe created after big bang? Nonsense. They were already there, thus the energy released could be formed and shaped according to those laws to what the universe is observed now. According to you, big bang happened, there was lawlessness after the bang and universal laws, mathematics did not exist, then suddenly these laws come into existence out of nothing by it’s own? You are truly delusional. Same as you claim that life came into existence by it’s own. And DNA has coded itself out of nothing. You don’t operate your brain in logic, but in religious faith in the false knowledge and theories they have programmed you with.
God exists. God created the universe and coded DNA, thus life could exist and be sustained.
You just have a programmed brain and you seem lack the intelligence (no offense) to grasp the whole truth. I bet you are intelligent but stubborn and proud. You trust your current knowledge and brain capacity too much, even if it will cost you eternal death. Not a wise bet. You think you’re wise, yet you make a fool out of yourself. Please research more. And again please do not limit yourself to physics. Don’t foolishly try to decode everything with physics. A kid would know you can apply physics only at objects that are bound to physics. There is a lot more reality that you desperately defend to ignore.
Dorian if you believe differently then why all the fuss it helps no one. It is your right to believe whatever you find faith in. If it is science then okay. Generally, a person who so strongly disagrees with GOD has little interest in changing their mind. It is pointless to debate the topic in hopes of persuasion.
Hey Dorian,
Nice forelock.
Additionally, please look up (on the web) the harm done to children when they are told that people can go to hell. Imagine your kid, making friends with a kid that is not part of Christianity, the other kid dies in some tragedy. Your kid could be thinking of his friend burning in hell. I don’t think we want kids thinking such cruel and tormenting thoughts.
If you teach children that someone can go to hell simply because of others’ beliefs, then you are teaching him hate. If it’s ok for his God someone because someone doesn’t like him, then it must be ok for him to do the same.
Please simply think about it.
Dorian,
Let me try to understand your advice:
God tells those of us who believe in Him that we should–out of love and concern, not hate–warn others of an eternity in hell for rejecting Him.
Dorian tells us that we shouldn’t tell anyone about hell because it may trouble them.
Who should we listen to, Dorian or God?
Also, no Christian is teaching that children will go to hell simply because of someone else’s beliefs. No one says “Hey Dorian, you’re going to go to hell BECA– USE of my belief that people who reject Christ go to hell.” In other words, it doesn’t matter what I believe or don’t believe. My belief has absolutely no say over your final destination. Yours however does.
I don’t hate you. If I did……I wouldn’t warn you; I would just wait for the surprised look on your face when you die. Please simply just think about it.
Oh Jonathan, you don’t see it, but you are already damaged by the believe of hell.
Your entire email is based on fear, fear of the unknown, to the point where you are actually afraid of that future.
God didn’t tell anyone anything, that is the entire point, you are letting yourself believe that god told you this or that, when in REALITY, a bunch of humans wrote things down on paper and said that god told them this and that, and YOU BELIEVE it.
HOW GULLIBLE IS THAT?
Kids ARE being harmed by this, there are REAL studies that PROVE IT.
You are a contradiction, on one hand you are telling me that you are not telling me, and on the other, you ARE telling me.
Your believe is based on what I’ve been saying, hearsay. If you want to place that much believe in what some fools wrote 2,000 years ago, then go ahead, I’m a level headed person and will not fall for fear, because that is what this is, nothing more than fantom fears.
You can go ahead and teach your kids that there is a heaven and hell, and that anyone that doesn’t believe in christ will go to hell. One day they will ask you, why a merciful god wants to send anyone to hell simply because they don’t follow him, and you will have to answer.
I’m sure you have a good reason why a god would burn someone in hell simply for not following him.
Maybe you do the same to people who don’t follow you on Facebook.
Well Dorian….That is not entirely accurate…
Many Christians make the same mistake…The definition of Hell is completely inaccurate..
Books of the Bible were written in Hebrew then translated to Greek then to English…
Hell comes from the word Greek word Hades which means abode of the dead or resting place of the dead (Grave)..Hades was translated from the Hebrew word Sheol which means Abode of the dead or grave.
That’s a pretty simple translation basically Hell is where everyone goes upon death..
This is where people get it confused. The eternal lake of fire is where Michael defeats the devil and the beast and sends them and all the ones who accepted the mark of the beast. This is confused often with hell..
Revelation 20:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.(Notice how it says the Lake of fire is the second death)
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (this clearly states that both the body and soul can be destroyed)
Revelation 20:14-15 “Then Death and Hades[7] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.” (this even says that even hell the resting place of the dead will be destroyed)
Revelation 21:8 – But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death
(This also says these people will be destroyed.)
Revelation 20:10 – And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(wait notice it didn’t say this is the second death..People assume that this implies to all but if it did why not put it all in one paragraph? Simply put you will not burn in the lake of fire forever..you will be destroyed…unless you are one of these 3..
Matthew 25:41 – Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
(everlasting fire…but not everlasting torment….Simply put it means a fire that burns forever…and its prepared for the Devil and his angels…it does not mention people…So its not made for us….)
So the whole thought process of why should I love a God that wants to burn me forever is flawed.
Its pretty fair and simple…. If you are loyal to God you are granted eternal life and are permitted to go to heaven.
If you choose not to follow God..you cease to exist…
it might seem harsh but if everybody gets to go to heaven then whats the point..
why would he want disloyal followers to be in his kingdom…If you choose not to believe then its all the same..but don’t let deluded Christians try to scare you into loving God by saying you are gonna burn in hell forever…That’s not how or why God wants you to love him……anyway hope i was able to give insight to somebody…
I understand what you are saying, and I’m fully aware of the actual terminology not only of Hell but of what crucifixion meant back in that era.
Crucifixion in the event that you are not aware of it, meant Hanged from wood or tree, not nailed.
But after reading this, it’s pretty obvious that we are dealing with some sick sociopaths.
This states over and over that unbelievers or someone else, will be cast in a lake of fire, wether it’s forever or not, it’s IRRELEVANT.
The last passage clearly states “INTO everlasting fire”, what is that supposed to mean other that you are IN the fire. Are we to believe that there will be EVERLASTING fire somewhere and that it will have nothing to do with whoever is around it? What are they going to do? Cook BBQ?
But seriously, how do you find it in you to follow or even affiliate yourself with such horrendous believes?
Man, thanks but no thanks!
Hi Dorian,
Long time, no speak. Welcome back. As you may have guessed, I am in disagreement with your comments. In particular this statement:
What do you base this on? Do you have any historical source that says this?
“In 1968, archaeologists discovered at Giv’at ha-Mivtar in northeast Jerusalem the remains of one Jehohanan, who had been crucified in the 1st century. The remains included a heel bone with a nail driven through it from the side. The tip of the nail was bent, perhaps because of striking a knot in the upright beam, which prevented it being extracted from the foot. A first inaccurate account of the length of the nail led some to believe that it had been driven through both heels, suggesting that the man had been placed in a sort of sidesaddle position, but the true length of the nail, 11.5 cm (4.53 inches), suggests instead that in this case of crucifixion the heels were nailed to opposite sides of the upright.”
There are numerous Romans historical source that confirm crucifixion was done with nails. The above passage shows the clearest archeological evidence still in existence today of first century crucifixion with nails as well.
And yes, unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire. This is true. I do find it ironic that you are so appalled by reading that but not appalled by all of the horrendous sinning taking place in this world. Do you think it’s horrific and barbaric that society today puts criminals in prison? Is it wrong that child molesters, thieves and murderers are locked away to suffer in isolation for decades until they die? Or should we just give everyone a pass, ask them to do better and let them continue to live free with no punishment?
Here is one.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/07/01/bible-doesnt-say-jesus-was-crucified-scholar-claims/
Here is the debate in wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_of_Jesus'_crucifixion
Your argument for punishment is abysmal. By golly lets compare criminals with anyone who doesn’t believe in an uncorroborated story of an invisible God.
You have to be kidding me!
I’ll answer your second post here.
I am ALL ABOUT EVIDENCE, so if this God was to appear before me today WITH other people in the room to PROOVE that i was NOT hallucinating, then I would believe he exists.
BUT he would have to PROVE to me that he is NOT the disgusting, selfish, maniacal entity that he seemed to be.
I don’t follow tyrants, and your god is an unjust tyrant and who loves to watch children die of starvation, drowned and rapped while allowing self mutilation for the sake of blood sacrifices.
When you consider the OBSERVABLE universe, DNA, Genetics and the fact of evolution. And when you understand who wrote all these “Holly” books, are simply ignorant humans trying to understand the world around them, there is NO room left for any of these gods.
They are all the same, inventions of man.
It’s really that simple.
Your problem is you see everything from a tight atheistic religious window. You have not researched thoroughly, because you like to be willingly ignorant about the whole truth.
You are demon possessed. You demand that God come to you and proof Himself to you? Who do you think you are? Absolute preposterous. It’s you who needs to find God. What did you do to find God? Nothing. You even visit this website to denounce God by all means. This is why i conclude that you’re demon possessed. If you had a goodwill, you would ask God. And as i understand it, you will get a response, in whatever form it may be. In current state you show all attributes of evil.
You are not simply judged for not believing God. If you reject God, then you’re open to all evil and unmoral things. How can a dirty soul stand in front of God? You want to serve yourself, not God.
Children dying from starvation, drowning, rape is not what God did. There is free will. There are disasters. There is stupidity. You have to strive to overcome. This no place for freeloaders. And this is nor heaven. This is a judged world, since the flood (of Noah). Evil has almost absolute control. Accepting Jesus (and understanding what he truly means) can save you from this almost hellish world.
Evolution is not a fact. Stop lying. It is debunked centuries ago. The devil makes you accept that you evolved from apes, and they from rats, and they from fish, and they from bacteria. This you love and cherish. How degrading. But you refuse that you are Noah’s descendant, a human, created (DNA coded) as human? You are demon possessed. One (not you) would eat a dish of excrement (satanists do), but would reject a nice meal? You would defend hell, yet refuse heaven? Why?
Look, i don’t write these as a direct answer to you. I will not be able to read any responses. It’s for others to see and further themselves.
I wonder why Christians burned the Library of Alexandria…
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta45.htm
Forgot to mention that I can’t fathom that you can make a comment such as “if everyone would go to heaven, what’s the point”. How do you find it in yourself to say such horrible thing?
If you where in a life raft and people where drawing around you, would you leave some of them out because, hey, why should we all get saved? WOW
This is what religion does to humans, it fogs the mind and makes them make ridiculous comments like this.
What the hell is wrong with EVERYONE having a GOOD TIME FOREVER? NOTHING!
It is SELFISH and ARROGANT on your and every christian’s part.
CHILDISH like WAY to many thing that this believe systems carry.
Yeah, Dorian, I was thinking the same thing. Ideally EVERYONE should live forever in paradise and have unending awesomeness! Why wouldn’t we want that for everyone??
What if when you die you still had a chance to change your mind about it all, once you saw God and removed any doubt as to His existence? I can’t help feeling He would give you that chance. Maybe everyone figures it out in the end, and only the truly monstrous among us perish. Just a thought.
Q,
With all due respect, you could not be more wrong. We cannot base our doctrine as Christians on “feelings.” We are to base it on the Word of God. Jesus said, “…Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” (John 8:23-24). This entire life we live on Earth is our opportunity to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin. Once you stand before God you are either in sin or sinless. If you are in sin, you will got to hell and burn in the lake of fire forever. This is from the Bible. If you are sinless, having put your faith in Christ and received His righteousness, you have eternal life in Heaven.
What you are suggesting in your comment is a false Gospel and a distortion of Scripture. Please be very careful in doing things like this because this is a major violation of Scripture. The Bible says our hearts are “..deceitful above ALL THINGS, who can know it?.” (Jeremiah 17:9). Don’t let your own personal ideas and feelings cloud your Biblical discernment. You may think you are being compassionate but you are actually perverting justice by what you suggest. God will not do such a thing. Unless one has put their faith in the atoning sacrifice of The Lord Jesus Christ there is no forgiveness of their sins. And they are condemned.
The sad truth is that many people will go to hell. Jesus said the way to destruction is broad and the way to salvation is narrow and “few” find it. Dorian in this thread has been proven wrong many times in his attempts to try and “debunk” the Bible. He has put God “on trial” and nary turn the microscope on himself. And for all his professed “unbelief”, he still persists with the same incorrect reasoning and faulty “evidence.” All on a Christian website no less. Instead of preaching a false Gospel to him, remember Jesus’ clear words from the Holy Bible.
So do you believe Jesus here or not? That is what you I suggest you consider and pray on. God bless. -B&E
No, I agree with you B&E. Anyone who’s been exposed to the Gospel and rejects it is accountable according to Scripture and without excuse. I do wonder, though, and almost feel guilty over the fact that the Truth of Scripture seems so completely clear and self-evident to me, while so many seem so clueless and can’t understand. I’ve tried to see it from all angles and be a skeptic and understand unbelief, but it’s beyond me. Science, history, the cosmos — none of it makes sense without God, without Truth.
Q I have to disagree with you there. To me nature, science, space, us, our world, our lives, our possibilities are all believable without the need of a divine being. I have looked at the idea from all sorts of angles but I have never understood why people think otherwise. But I must say, the reason not everyone takes the scripture to be true like you do is because the sources, message, and the general idea do not seem as right, plausible, or sane as it does to you. As humans we think differently, understand differently, and form different ideas from the same information. How you interpret the information presented could be completely different from how I interpret it, which is how we have come to the two opposite conclusions. To me the fact that we do not need a god mixed with the lack of proof of one and the sketchy history of the idea of a god seems to make god literally as possible as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. We can’t prove he doesn’t exist, but that doesn’t mean he does. Before you can prove to someone which religion is right don’t you first have to prove to them that god is real? That’s like putting someone on a football team when they were signing up for rugby.
Hi Leechris,
Once again, I am asking for proof of something you claim:
If this is true, then explain to me from scientific standpoint, the origin of matter.
Beginning and end, the idea that something can never come from nothing is flawed. The very existence of vacuum particle fluctuations goes to prove that we do not know everything and that what we think is true is not guaranteed to be. If you wish to learn more about it I can provide a link, or if you’d prefer I can explain it myself (by the way, if you scroll down you’ll see Q somewhere speaking of the great space vacuum, that’s him poking fun at the idea)
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/vacuum.html
Just because we do not know something does not mean it can be explained with god. Your very argument ages ago used to be “where does the rain come from?” “What causes earthquakes?” “What forms the clouds?” “Why do we stay firmly on the ground?” “Why does the sun orbit the earth?/Why does the earth orbit the sun?” And at one point they were all explained by god, but now we know better. Don’t just assume god did it.
And I would think that the idea that god created the world is pretty flawed to be considered, and it needs more evidence to be considered accurate. When you consider all the flaws in the universe, like our wisdom teeth, the hind leg bones in whales, human nature, lack of existence in such a big universe, nightmarish creates, including ones that burrow through our eyeballs, etc all go to show that if god created us he can not be perfect, or that he can not be powerful enough to make us unflawed. The only flaw you can blame on humans is their nature, the rest is up to the “perfect deity creating everything” idea. The idea is just so unsupported it seems like a lazy answer.
Leechris- Once again, you make a claim and have no evidence to back it up. You asserted to hae an easy scietific explanation for everything but have no explanation for the origin of matter. I just wanted to point this out as this has been your consistent pattern throughout this thread.
B&E, while we’re given no appreciable answer as to the creation of matter without a creator, I wonder if particle physics hasn’t given us the answer as to how God did so. Consider, when matter is combined with anti-matter, the result is a massive explosion, giving off tremendous energy in the form of heat, plus photons. The equation is, for every particle of matter + anti-matter –> heat + 2 photons. This is one directional in accordance with time. So, God, who is the master of time, would be able to create matter from nothing by reversing the arrow of time, in a negative singularity, and infusing light (photons) and energy (heat). God, who is The Light, is described in Scripture as a being of radiant light and heat (energy), which means all he needs to give off matter is negative time (which science would term a “singularity”).
So when scientists insist the universe sprang from nothingness by an explosion of a “singularity,” that singularity would be God’s infusion of matter from timeless non-existence. I find that fascinating.
Benani,
I disagree that Hades is solely defined as the grave. I believe that Hades is where the soul is until judgement day. It’s not just a resting place in the grave, it is Hell. The final judgement is when all those in Hell will be joined to their bodies and then body and soul will be cast into the Lake of Fire. That is the 2nd and final death.
Those who go lost are immediately in Hell. According to the Bible (Luke 16), immediately after death, the lost souls are in full possession of all their faculties and sensibilities. They see, for the rich man saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. They feel, for he was in torments. They cry for mercy, for he asked in vain for a drop of water to cool his tongue. They are in possession of memory, for the rich man was bidden to remember what he had received during his lifetime on earth. Matt. 13: 42 says “there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” When the books are opened and all humanity (except the redeemed) will be judged, soul and body will be joined and thereafter the 2nd death, which is the Lake of Fire. No those poor lost souls will not be destroyed; they will wish that they were (they will “seek death and not find it”) and their eternal torment will be increased by the sight of the redeemed being comforted.
The final portion of the lost is spoken of as being “punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord”; as “everlasting punishment”; as “tormented”; as “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire”; as being “associated with the vilest of the vile”; as being where it is “the blackness of darkness forever”; as being “beyond the power of resistance.”
This is not only solemn it is devastating. We should be “storming the heavens with violence” to be spared from such an eternity.
You helped me. Thanks!
I need to correct myself here. Hades is where the body rests until Judgement Day (Benani is correct in that definition); Hell is where the soul is immediately after death if not reborn on this side of eternity. The body dies but the soul is immortal. When Jesus comes back to judge the quick and the dead, body and soul will be reunited, and thereafter the wicked shall be cast into the Lake of Fire with the Devil and all his followers. Sorry about this.
I could suggest some reading material. “Human Nature in its Fourfold State,” by Thomas Boston.
“The body dies but the soul is immortal.” — Chris.
Nowhere in the Bible could I find the idea that the soul is immortal!!!
Where does it say in the Bible that the soul is immortal?!
In fact this idea is from the Greek philosophy. The early church fathers who were great fans of Plato and Greek philosophy borrowed this idea and infused into the Bible!
The Bible teaches emphatically:
“The soul that sins, it shall DIE.” (Ezek 18:4)
“The soul that sins, it shall DIE.” (Ezek 18:20)
Even Jesus teaches that God will destroy a soul!!!
“But rather fear Him who can DESTROY BOTH SOUL and body in Gehenna.” (Mat 10:28)
As for “hell = Hades/Sheol”, trust me, every one, without exception, who dies goes to this place which is simply the grave!!!
Yes, even Jesus Himself when dead did go to this place and remained there for 3 days and 3 nights!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“seeing this beforehand, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor would His flesh see corruption” (Acts 2:31)
The soul IS MORTAL!!!
The death meant for the soul in the Bible is not a literal definition but a figurative definition which means “to be eternally separated from the prescence of God”.
Ummmmm, Dorian bro, are you even aware of the fact that ‘hell’ just means earth/dirt/sheol/hades/the grave? Believing in Catholic Church scare-tactics and assuming that is what the bible says further proves that you know nothing of the bible or basic word meanings. Everyone goes to hell when the die. Hell is the earth. The dead know nothing.
There is no such thing as eternal fire and suffering. It is total BS, like christmas and easter. Many Christians don’t know what they are talking about, so they scare away people with this trash. If I was Satan I’d probably think that would be a clever thing to do.
I understand that the word hell actually means underground or tomb, but your jesus mentions the lake of fire and the grinding of teeth.
Now how exactly do you have a lake of fire and the grinding of teeth in a tomb?
God, Jesus, The Holly Spirit, Angels, Demons and Satan are all man made.
I think you would be surprised to find out that true Christianity does not involve a magical utopia in the sky…. that is a Hellenized idea and the lake of fire refers to a place that everyone would have known, this place was where they burned trash and things of the like, it was constantly on fire and anything that was thrown in could never be saved from the flames. everything was destroyed. So a more correct view of hell would be just annihilationism. The Kingdom of God is here and now, Christians are to build it. Those who choose not to… will eventually be annihilated. You got this life… thats what you wanted.
How do you define a “true” Christian and how do you know that you have the right version and everyone else the wrong one?
Sounds like you are a supporter of mysticism and not literalism.
If there is no heaven, and we are to build our “kingdom”, then what is the purpose of this god?
I get what I get, wether I want it or not. I’d love to live much longer than 80 years, and travel across the universe, but it doesn’t mean I’m going to get it.
A true Christian would be one that believes in the Nicene Constantinople Creed, given this is the basis for any form of Christianity. Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants don’t agree on much, but they do agree on this. This creed was also used in the decision of which books to put in the Bible.
I am simply telling you what a true Christian should believe. Christianity has been ruined by many, mainly the Protestants, so the view you may get from here and anywhere else is likely not an accurate view of Christianity. I happen to be educated by an Apologetics scholar as well as an astounding Theologian.
This is not “our” kingdom. It is God’s and he has called man to help him build it. Not because he needs help, but because he desires for us to help him.
Victor, you are delusional. I have to agree with Dorian that you are involved with something not considered true Christianity, no matter what apologetics you were taught nor by being taught by what you consider an outstanding theologian. A true Christian knows that there is a heaven but is not concerned where it is located (after judgment day there will be a new heaven and a new earth and no more sin!), because if Jesus Christ is not there it’s not heaven. Heaven is where Christ is.
Hell is also a place. Unfortunately those who are “…unto the resurrection of damnation” will spend eternity in hell. They will wish they were annihilated because they will be without God. In the world they are without God but then they will experience His wrath eternally and no longer be able to participate in all the blessings they had on earth. For in life the Lord blesses the just and the unjust. No longer will that be the case in hell. What you believe is not Biblical Victor. The Bible is very clear that the damned shall “…burn with unquenchable fire!”
You are correct when you say heaven is where Christ is… and Christ is going to return. Thus, heaven will be here once everything is made new.
Find a verse that says Christians will go to heaven when they die. The idea of heaven is a completely Hellenistic idea… Had you told early church fathers what heaven was they condemn you as a heretic. Gnosticism would hold that the world is evil and must be destroyed… the world is not evil but blemished. The earth was created as God’s temple and man was to be the priest. But the world rejected Him. Once the new earth is created Christians will assume their roll as the priest of the earth (God’s temple)
You take the idea of hell too literally… this is a reference to something the Jews of that time would understand as destruction. The soul will be destroyed there is not a place where the damned go to be tortured for the rest of eternity. The fact that some Christians believe that is mind boggling… Why would a just God torture them forever? He wouldn’t… he would give them what they desired which was this life and not the next.
Heaven –
Matthew 5:17-20
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Hell –
Mathew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
——————–
NO, a just god would give people a healthy brain to make the right decisions, not a malfunctioning brain with chemical imbalances that turns them into criminals and then punish them for being criminals.
A just god would have us living the good life, on a beach on a planet with two moons sipping on Margaritas and having fun. Not working 40+ hours just to survive, only a masochistic imbecile would do that.
There is no just god, there is not god. Earth is a rock spinning around a nuclear reactor in the vastness of space and nothing more. We are smaller than an atom against to earth. We are one planet upon trillions. We are nothing.
Sorry, but your ideology is that of ancient ignorant humans.
Now go and live the only life you have in PEACE and stop worrying about the after life, because there isn’t one single shred of evidence that promotes such a thing.
ONE LIFE, LIVE IT TO IT”S FULLEST.
Ok… I’ve read this over many times and I’ve come to the conclusion that it will be impossible to give you an answer you are satisfied with simply because you do not believe there is a god. The nature of heaven and hell concerns believers, and it simply makes no sense to argue about the nature of religious doctrine if you do not even believe there is a god. Now, I would be glad to get back to this later if we are able to come to an agreement that there is a god.
Do yourself a favor and watch this video.
http://youtu.be/ol7mLCrMamM
After you watch hopefully “with an open” mind, then explain to me how all this is possible if a soul does not exist? U may have not done your research on this, but even your atheist scientist friends are baffled by how this can be possible. This is clear evidence which suggests there “more than likely” is an afterlife, one may argue that there’s an alternative explanation, but to completely dismiss that there could be an afterlife would further enhance my assessment of you in that you don’t want to believe in anything that points towards a God. In my estimation you could care less about the search for truth, but if you care to prove me wrong then watch this video and let’s see how you will try to explain the clear evidence that is staring u right in the face. There is very little doubt in my mind u will try to make the claim that everyone is lying and making up stuff to deceive non believers, you will find something illogical to say in the attempt to buffer your flawed position. I will give u a chance to prove that you do have an open mind and that you are willing to see the other side of the coin, then potentially come to a conclusion that you very well could be wrong.
http://youtu.be/ol7mLCrMamM
Dorian,
Where did you read fear in my post? I am not going to hell, therefore I am not afraid of the future. I am not afraid of the unknown, because the after-life is not unknown. I am wholly confident in my beliefs, therefore I don’t need to react with sarcasm and anger because you have a different position.
You call the Bible writers “fools who wrote 2000 years ago.” Why do you judge them to be fools? It has to be because you don’t like what they have to say. Do you call everyone you disagree with a fool? Are all the other people who wrote anything about anything 2000 years ago automatically fools?
Here is what gets me: 12 men followed Christ. They were eyewitnesses to his death and resurrection. Let’s say you’re right, and this man Christ was NOT God in the flesh, and so He did NOT rise from the dead. These 12 men who followed Him as His closest companions would know the resurrection was faked and so Christ could not be trusted. They would have to be in on the conspiracy to fake His resurrection. So riddle me this, if they knew Jesus was a fake, WHY did they devote the rest of their lives to His service? Why were they willing to suffer torture and cruel executions?
No one goes to hell because they don’t follow God. They go to hell because they are sinners. No one can keep God’s law. So God sent His Son to live the perfect life required by the law. Then He paid the price for sin by dying on the cross. On the cross, God placed our sin on Christ’s account, and placed Christ’s perfection on our account. Anyone who tramples such a costly gift of mercy……….why should that person expect the “merciful God” to do anything else but impose the maximum penalty on him.
You are a freaking mere mortal, a wimp, a flawed imperfect human waste of sperm and u have the audacity to tell us what a “Just” God should be like? Who the hell are you to define God? Forgive me Lord for the “waste of sperm” comment, actually I don’t hate u at all brutha, but your blatant denial of God’s existence is not only dumb as hell, it’s downright offensive. Back to my point, you are in no position to question God, or to tell us who God should be. You are no authority on the matter. As it says in scripture,“Who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to instruct him?” If you actually used some common sense instead of being stuck in your denials and delusions, you would understand that if a God does exist, then He would be a trillion to the highest power more intelligent than you or any of us could ever imagine. As many scientists have concluded the universe appears to have been designed in a way which suggest that the designer would have to be of the most incredible unfathomable intellectual capacity level which goes way beyond any degree of human understanding. This means that God not only has the right to do whatever the hell He wants, but only He can fully understand why everything operates the way it does and why the world is f’d up the way it is. It’s one thing if you don’t believe in a biblical God, but when you outright deny the existence of a God period, the One who created the universe and all things within it, then u only continue to make yourself look even more foolish. The thing with you is that you want life to be easy, a piece of cake, peaches and cream, u want your candy and then some. I read your posts, u are a coward and a defeatist. You want God to be like a father who spoils his children, catering to your needs and give you everything you damn well please. I can imagine if that was the case how you would take advantage of God’s kindness and probably not feel any need to glorify or praise Him, you would become arrogant and have no sense of discipline. Why rely on God if God gives you everything right? You already reject God, so I can imagine how if He gave you everything u would be one of those ungrateful clowns that would take advantage of His overprotective and cod-modeling nature. Let me explain a couple of things to you bruh, u can choose to accept it or reject it, but I’m going to tell u some hard truths u will not like. First of all God has already revealed Himself to you; maybe not in the way that you may want, but it has been made clear via scripture and other methods having absolutely nothing to do with the bible. You’re one of these cronies who like to ask the question, “if there’s a God why is there pain and suffering in the world”? I believe God has already answered these questions, though I believe there is more yet to be revealed to us on the day of judgement. I think you and others choose not to believe in a God because of the pain and suffering that exists, but this is because people like u either don’t read the scripture in its entirety, or u have a hard time comprehending the meaning of scripture within the Christian texts. You made it pretty damn clear that you don’t want to accept any of this, but guess what, “life is not supposed to be easy” son. I know it’s hard for u to grasp, but it’s a fact of life that u and a few others would rather duck and hide from. “LIFE IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE EASY”… People who have had near death experiences have been told this, and this has also been made clear to us through the holy prophets, Jesus and the apostles and disciples of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Here is the harsh reality, in this world there will always be suffering. No one wants to experience suffering, that goes without saying, but what you and some others don’t want to accept is that the suffering that many have to endure is all a part of a plan that God has devised, which only God can fully understand. It’s for us to trust Him (as He asked us to do), believing that it’s all for the betterment of all of God’s creations, but unfortunately some in this world fail to believe in the message that I believe was delivered by the One who created us. They don’t believe in the promises that was made to us, that all the pain and suffering in this world is not all in vein. This is why there are so many miserable frustrated people who resent God for putting them in a world that is full of so many challenges (ala some dude named Dorian); they want our creator to make it easy on the inhabitants of the earth, as if somehow preventing everyone from getting sick and eliminating evil would be a sign of God proving that His for us is real. I believe the problem is that u have a false understanding of what “love” really is; God’s love is far greater and far more valid than any of us can begin to imagine or comprehend. We don’t have the knowledge, the intellect nor the wisdom that our father in heaven possesses, so who the hell are u to question the love of God? Seriously! Only He knows why suffering occurs, and why it was destined for suffering to be a part of our existence, and I would trust in His motivation and His judgement more than I would my own, yours or anyone else’s. It is He who knows what type of reward and relief everyone who has suffered will attain when the predetermined time comes upon us. The One who made us understands what is the true growth in our Lord Jesus Christ, I believe the Messiah suffering for us spoke volumes to that. Yet we complain when we think we are suffering? Tell me this Dorian, what the hell have u been through in your life? What type of suffering did you have to endure? The fact you have access to a computer would suggest that you probably have a job, or some type of income, and a home, TV, radio, food, utensils, this that and the other thing. I’m sure that your life has had more blessings than any type of suffering Christ and His followers had to endure. Look at what u have in your life, did God have to allow u to have anything good? I’m sure u have many opportunities to enjoy life, or at least all that life has to offer. You have the opportunity to gain some education and to use that to your advantage to not only better yourself, but to help others who might be less fortunate. U probably have all these advantages in your life, yet u choose to reject God and to blame Him for all the ills of the world? U are one ungrateful son of a bitch, and I don’t mean that to degrade u, but to inform u that u need to wake your ass up and to start appreciating your blessings. God don’t have to give u sh*t! Even if u don’t like your life, He could have put u in a worse situation. U could be living somewhere in the middle east, where there’s war and strife taking place. You could be living your life in fear everyday not knowing if your home is going to be destroyed next, you could be living in a place where famine is pervasive. No seriously, what the hell do u have to complain about? Your life could be full of suffering, and the way u thank God is to act like he doesn’t exist. Shaking my head at people like u seriously. What is suffering anyway? Some would say it’s a state of mind, but when you’re in the spirit there is no such thing as suffering. Even if we give into the idea that suffering is a part of our existence, I would take 70 – 80 years of “so called” suffering if I believed that what was awaiting me after this life was eternal ecstasy and bliss, in a place where death doesn’t exist. A place where I will live forever and be with God forever; in a world where there is no pain, no evil, no tragedies and no sin. If God’s promises are legit, only a fool wouldn’t want to be a part of that?
I present to you various passages that speaks to the sufferings that many are destined to face, but also the promised reward that many will reap if we persevere through all the challenges that is presented to us. It’s by the will of God, accept it or reject it is at your own peril.
John 16:33
33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”
Hebrews 10:35-37
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
Hebrews 11:26-28
26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible.
James 1:11-13
12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. 13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.
James 5:10-12
10 Brothers and sisters, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
Romans 5:2-4
2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.
2 Thessalonians 1:3-5
3 We ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love all of you have for one another is increasing. 4 Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. 5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
James 1:2-4
2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.
1 Thessalonians 3:2-4
2 We sent Timothy, who is our brother and co-worker in God’s service in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith, 3 so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. For you know quite well that we are destined for them. 4 In fact, when we were with you, we kept telling you that we would be persecuted. And it turned out that way, as you well know.
2 Peter 2:8-10
8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
1 Peter 1:5-7
5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
Isaiah 53 (the first coming of jesus)
53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.
Mark 8:30-31
30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.
31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.
Luke 24:25-26
25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?”
Romans 8:16-18
16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. Present Suffering and Future Glory
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
1 Corinthians 3:10-16
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. 16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?
2 Corinthians 1:4-7
4 who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God. 5 For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ. 6 If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. 7 And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.
Philippians 1:28-30
28 without being frightened in any way by those who oppose you. This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved—and that by God. 29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him, 30 since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.
1 Thessalonians 1:5-6
5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. 6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.
1 Peter 2:18-23
18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.
23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.
1 Peter 3:17-19
17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
1 Peter 4:1-3
4 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin.
1 Peter 4:11-13
12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice in as much as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.
1 Peter 4:18-19
18 And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” 19 So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
1 Peter 5:1-3
5 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed:
1 Peter 5:8-10
8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.
10 And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
Revelation 2:9-11
9 I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown. 11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
So you see, it’s not all in vein, the suffering that God allows is what will make it possible for us to become a part of God’s glory. If we expect to receive eternal perfection, then we should be willing to pay the price for it, just as the son of God did. Staying faithful to the Lord through all trials and tribulations is a true testament to our love for God, and to our belief in Him that what He said to us through the Son was the truth. If we truly love God (no smoke screen but true unconditional love), then we will continue to believe in Him no matter what challenges we may have to endure in this life. For as it says in scripture, “the one who stands firm to the end will be saved”. Translation, If we maintain our faith, there is a great reward awaiting us at the end of the tunnel.
The previous post was meant specifically for Dorian.
STOP!! Please stop!
If you’ve read all of Dorian’s posts than you certainly know many have tried to change his views and been unsuccessful. We all think we can do better. I am no different, I tried as well.
My point is that Dorian will and has blasphemed the Lord in his posts. It is not necessary that anyone who is on this post needs to be subjected to that again. It’s a case of what the Bible says is “throwing pearls to swine.” Reference being that God’s Word is the Pearl of Great Price and you are throwing it to someone who has no joy in it and in fact will degrade it. He knows the Bible but he has not been given a heart to believe it. Leave him alone. When the disciples of Jesus turned away from Him because the truth was “a hard saying” you read no where that Jesus ran after them to try to convince them of their errors. They were warned and they shall account for it. Dorian has been warned enough. Leave him be so we don’t have to read or hear any more blasphemic blogs.
Thank you!
Part of kids confusion is due to the parents themselves being lukewarm towards Christ and what the bible teaches. Mom has a vague understanding and tries to explain to the young child, but it is explained in a faulty way. The bible warns us of this too. If youre neither here nor there i will spit you out. And also, your kids will bear the consequences of your sins.
Just because you call yourself a Christian, it doesnt mean you are saved. And even less that your kids are saved. They will grow up and have to make a decision themselves.
Life is very very complex. People say things they dont mean, people exaggerate, people lead others wrongfully. Even parents and kids can hurt each other without intending to. But god has control of it all. And if you are sincere in your heart and make daily efforts to understand and live a life like god describes, you will gain spiritual strength and understanding.
Im glad my mom told me about hell and heaven 10 years ago. Even though I hated and resented her for a long time. If I didnt come to Christ some few years ago on my own decision, id probably woudnt be able to see that all she wanted was to help.
Some might think well if she wouldnt have talked in the first place, i wouldnt have had to try to understand the bible to make amends. But I was already heading in a wrong direction. I believe there was no way out but Christ. In some ways God made it easy, there was no other option but him. And think about it, when your mom or dad is on there deathbed, and whatever logic you have goes out the door. And whatever regrets you had dormant come full blast, how are you going to feel? How are your kids going to react that their grandparent is dying. Will your brother see you worried, regretful, or unemotional? How will this affect them? Maybe you dont care what happens. Life is life… Maybe your nephew is asking questions, but you dont really care or do you? Or you probably dont know what youre doing in this world? Maybe you think youre just an animal?
Such delusions… It pans me to see people twisted in such a way they believe things to be right because they seem to feel they have to. You can say you don’t all you want, but with what you have said so far you have already admitted it will be lies. You believe because you are afraid of the true emptiness of life, the lack of purpose or reason, the lack of self worth you get when you realize that you are just like all other animals on earth, only smarter. There is a need for Christ in many people, but for those who know how to run their own life there is none. Religion is but a brace, a stick to help you walk, but many people can get around fine without it without needing to have delusions clouding their judgement. I know most people really do need religion to live, to be good, to know what to do, and it is those people I feel sorry for. I feel even more sorry for those smart enough to go without, but still find a need to justify the mass delusion because they were at a moment weak, or unjustly brought up forced to take it as a fact. I feel sorry for you, John, for here there is nothing I can do to help you. Maybe if you’d like we could talk somewhere easier, but because you grew up not knowing the punishments of hell, assumed by you stating you learned it 10 years ago, you do not know what most children brought up in religious households are taught to fear. There are children who find themselves unable to believe such myths, but the threat of hell scares them enough to pretend, they can’t accept anymore that it isn’t real because it was taught to them at a vulnerable time and left a life long impression on them. There are even adults still coping with this problem finding it hard to think otherwise for the sole fear of hell, until you know how they feel about this you can not speak for any of these people who are able to believe otherwise, but refuse to because they are far too scared.
LeeChris,
I am so glad I have you to tell me why I believe something. Here all along I thought I believed in Christ for other reasons. Thanks for knowing me better than I know myself, and for setting me straight. Good grief.
So you have expressed your own opinion about why I believe in Christ. You think I use Christ as a crutch. I do. But not in the way you think. But now let’s examine your beliefs using the exact same methodology. Drink your own medicine so to speak:
Clearly you are so afraid of hell that you’ve decided to bury your head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich and pretend hell doesn’t exist. Denial is your crutch; your escape from the reality that life is not meaningless, we are not animals (only smarter) but beings created in God’s image, and we will be held accountable for our actions. Oh, you can say you don’t rely on the crutch of denial all you want, but with what you have said so far you have already admitted it will be lies.
Yes of course. You can’t take the fact that people don’t think that hell is real so you must not be able to conceive the fact that to me he’ll is as real as god is, I’m not afraid because I know that there is no hell to go to. When I die that is it, I will be gone and my body will eventually return to the universe while my impressions will live on in society. As for what I said, you act like I stated facts when I was just going off of all of the details you gave me in your talks. I know that I can’t say exactly why, but I know that you can’t either. Nobody knows everything for reasons why they believe in something, but that fear of hell is always there for almost every Christian. I am an atheist because I do not need a crutch like you do, I stand free knowing that we are animals, we came from animals, that we are nothing more and weren’t created for any purpose. To say otherwise your only trying to make the burden of reality easier to understand and accept.
I don’t know any Christian who is afraid of hell. Fear of hell is for those who do not embrace Christ. Hell is no threat for a Christian. You say you “know” you came from animals, but don’t know why. How can you say you “know” something, but don’t know “how” you know it? That makes no sense. You go on to say no one knows everything for why they belive as they do, and you claim I don’t know why I believe what I believe either. You’re wrong. You may not know why you believe what you do, but I know exactly why I believe what I believe. Your belief is based on unsubstantiated theory. You believe what you believe for no good reason. You have “blind faith” in a theory (which is pure speculation). To believe something, but not have a reason for believing it, shows that you are the one with a crutch, not me. My belief is based on science. My belief is based on rationality. I don’t embrace “blind faith.” I believe in God, and the God of the Bible specifically, for a lot of reasons, including the fact that it is irrational to not believe in Him.
Maybe you don’t know one because it is the ones who actually questions their faith or begin to doubt it unlike you? They don’t always voice their opinions, and even preachers and pastors come across their problem. There are people who cast away their old belief and still wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat shaking from a nightmare of the old threat he may have hardly considered when he was still a believer (Tim havener is a poster of a page I follow and has gone from a missionary for Christ to an anti theist and has shared much of his story of the hardships of letting go of a faith he can no longer accept).
I don’t just say we are from animals, we are still animals. We humans are Homo sapiens, a part of the homo genus now down to merely one group after the extinction of the other forms, including Neanderthals. We slowly evolved from a common ancestor with apes, who most likely came from a smaller form of mammal that might have, in a different part of the world at the same time, evolved into another common animal that we do not associate as a monkey. We are animals, just with more brain capacity then most.
My claim of never knowing everything for why you believe I know isn’t true for everybody, but there are people who clinig on to religion as a last hope, wanting to believe that a loved one is not gone forever after they die, or they can not comprehend the realities of the world, some even claim that without religion they would have no problem killing people (last one not really, that’s more the people who say how can you know morality without god, even though morality existed before religion came about) but one thing I find true is that Christian after Christian claims a belief in a hell that awaits anyone who rejects their savior, even though now it might not be a threat if one day you are to defect that one belief could be the worst thought in your entire life.
My beliefs are based on an understanding of the world, the universe, how it works, and things proven to be true as I try to piece together what could be true from them, I do not claim that what I believe is the truth, I merely claim it is what I believe based on what I know at the time and it is subject to change, I put it out there for people to tell me where I’m mistaken, why I am, and what I’m missing in my information to better refine how I think. I don’t just have faith to believe, I actually base my answers off of everything I know instead of clinging to an answer without evidence and looking for reasons why I am right, that is why I think it is a better way then religion because I open my mind to possibilities, instead of only opening them to ways I would be right.
To say it is irrational to not believe in the bible is like all the Muslims saying that the Karan is infallible, they use faulty science and reasoning to make it seem like they’re right when anyone not indoctrinated into their religion can easily see where they are wrong, that is why I am able to see the faults in Christianity more easily. There is no science that can prove god, and just because there can’t be proof otherwise people think that means he must exist, but that’s not how things actually work. Just because you have decided to handicap yourself to believe that your crutch is normal does not mean I wish to do the same, I choose to walk a normal path with my own two feet, using what I know and following logical advice on others to end up at the best conclusion
If you wish to continue this talk email me ([email protected]) and I will be glad to answer anything else, or discuss whatever you please. If you wish to continue here I would be more limited due to how slow this is on my iPad, and the vast quantity of comments. If you wish to continue commenting here then there is nothing I can do about it, I would just like an easier way to communicate than this.
I will email you but for the benefit of those reading these posts, I will answer some of your challenges here first. You made the statement that you “actually base my answers off of everything I know instead of clinging to an answer without evidence…” So far you have offered no evidence. all you’ve done is make assertions. Assertions are not evidence. And you’ve even gone so far in a previous post as to say you “can’t say why” you believe what you do. That sort of flies in the face of your statement here that you base your beliefs off everything you know and don’t cling to answers without evidence. Those are contradictory statements. Finally, I never said its irrational to not believe in the Bible. I said it is irrational to not believe in God. And yes, there is scientific proof for God’s existence (we’ll get into that in our email exchanges so you don’t have to try to find those posts here).
Jonathon B.
While I believe in God I do so based more on faith. I would love to look at the scientific evidence of god’s existence.
Since your going to email me and I would think this would go on if I just added more ill leave at at that for now. I await your email, but if I don’t reply (since it is 1 am here) right away I might be asleep and will get to it in the morning. I just have to say though I’ve never seen scientific proof for god in anything I’ve seen, even on this page. If you can provide something that I must have overlooked then I would be more then glad to see what you have to say, I am always looking for new information to prove me wrong to see if I really do believe what I say I do. (Hence why I ended up here)
I would encourage all of you to cease the debate with Dorian as he had made up his mind. We as Christians should not fall prey to sending or spending our faith when it is obvious it is feeding into the secular belief we are opposed to. I simply as the scriptures asks avoid such discussions. We have done what Jesus has commanded and gave Dorian our heartfelt message. We can do no more accept to fuel his desire to debate. Let him debate this alone.
Children should be taught about the dangerous path to hell, but not in a way that others are incriminated. If the ultimate decision concerning life or death is made by God then who are we to state that someone is going to hell? I think that’s a problem a lot of us forget when discussing damnation. We try to assume that God’s final decision is to send a certain person to hell without even knowing his actual decision. I think children should be taught how to how to discuss why God sends people to hell and not passing judgement. The main objective is to pass on God’s knowledge without making ignorant assumptions and hurting people’s feelings.
Sorry about the grammatical errors lol. Didn’t proofread
Sure you can do that, but that’s just a way of going around what is explicitly stated on Matthew 46 and Revelations 20:15.
[Censored for trolling]
Hi Dorian,
Two of your posts have been censored today. I’ll be frank – I don’t want to ban you. You have made substantive arguments and your opinions are welcome. But please refrain from any further personal attacks and profanity. We can express our disagreements, but in a respectful manner. Thank you.
It is when you teach these to such young and innocent children at the most vulnerable part of their life they are more likely to succumb to a lifetime of the religion, not just because they want to but because they fear the punishment they face otherwise. If you wish to have a child honestly say that they are Christian and not because of a fear of hell you must wait until after a period of the most vulnerability to the subject has passed, wait until they are older, roughly the age of young adults 16-18 and if they say they believe then it is because it makes sense to them, not because they are afraid of the hell you preach to them so nonchalantly.
Leehris, I have read much of what you have to say, but not all of it. Anyone who tries to preach the gospel of Christ by talking about hell is not preaching the gospel.
I work with 5th and 6th grade kids. They ask big questions, they worry about hell. I tell them not to worry about hell. God is love and being worried about something is not going to fix it. Instead I tell them a story from Matthew 25:31-46. Summary: When Jesus separates those who go to heaven and those who go to hell it will be based on how much we loved and cared for everyone around us. So heaven will be filled with people who “feed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, invited strangers into their homes, clothed the naked, cared for the sick and visited prisoners.” Heaven sounds pretty sweet. Hell is filled with people who were too preoccupied with taking care of themselves. I don’t know how you feel about Jesus and His gospel, but I was an Anti-theist for most of my life. Jesus LITERALLY spoke to me and now I am feeding His sheep. I pray that you would know just how wide, long, and deep the love that God is. HE LOVES YOU even if you are His enemy. HE LOVES YOU even if you hate Him. HE LOVES YOU even if you don’t believe in Him.
It has been quite some time since I got an email from this site and had nearly forgotten about it. I probably don’t remember much of what I’ve said here, but I do know that my belief that there is no god is stronger than ever after this time. But to the main point, not only is it widely taught, but it is also stated that those who accept Jesus as their savior may end up in heaven. Is this a contradiction in the bible? Or does one side have a different meaning that’s being overlooked? If what you say really is true then why is it not as widely discussed or accepted within its believers?
“but it is also stated that those who accept Jesus as their savior may end up in heaven.”
Yes it does say that and I think that Jesus is “the way the truth and the life.”
“1. Is this a contradiction in the bible? 2. Or does one side have a different meaning that’s being overlooked? 3. If what you say really is true then why is it not as widely discussed or accepted within its believers?”
1. Probably not a contradiction, but I am still figuring this whole Jesus and Christianity thing out. I know Him to be real, but there are MANY MANY problems with religion. Jesus was very aware of these and address them regularly, but mostly in Matthew 5 and 6.
2. Many “religious” people have personal beliefs that are not found in the books they claim to believe in. This is a problem with the people, not the books themselves. I find the same fallible logic in the religious, spiritual, and anti(whatever) people alike. Believing in something is just a stepping stone to living the life you believe you should live… most people believe something, but don’t actually do what they believe, but then yell about how other people don’t do it… it’s very sad and more than a little ironic.
3. I don’t know the answer to this. I wish people would just read the bible and decide for themselves how to go about pursuing a relationship with God. I know that God guides those who seek him and if people took their faith into their own hands and started pursuing God they would see that many pastors and teachers aren’t teaching the “truth”/ what the bible says.
In summary the gospel is not primarily a set of facts but a way of seeing and a way of being in the world because of God. Jesus speaks to the heart, saying God is on your side; God can be trusted; the universe is safe and benevolent; trust yourselves, one another and God; there is no reason to be afraid; it’s all headed toward something good! He does this primarily by touch, relationship, healing and parables.
Hope this helps.
It seems a lot of this is still left to speculation and believing before you get the evidence, but if anything I’m just curious what you mean by you’ve actually talked to Jesus. I’ve heard this claim before, but none of them turned out to be credible.
I was actually an anti-thiest when I first heard God speak to me but I was doing a “prayer exercise” where I would speak to God even though I did not believe in him and one day he spoke back to me and he has not stopped speaking since. I can’t make Him speak but He has been faithful to me when I needed Him the most. Evidence is always a problem. I think that is a point this article makes very clear. We are only capable of experiencing life through our own eyes but I assure you Jesus is real and he claims to be one with God and the same as God, but not equal to God. It’s all very strange but worth reading about and pursuing. A relationship with God has not so much been tried and found deficient as it has been left untried and denounced
I figured it would be something along those lines. Personally I don’t find human experiences well worth the trust in many cases on this topic, as humans have been shown to very very easily swayed or misconstrued, even by their own selves.
What verse are you referring to that says “if you accept Jesus as savior you may go to heaven”?
On that being widely taught; I’ve never heard it and I’ve been around a lot of Christian “teaching”. In fact recently the Pope (not that I care what he says) said non believers would be saved — not even a “may” issue with that statement.
txs
The most notable is john 3:16
Guys, you have to realize that the “bible” we read is not perfect. it has errors, some just bad translations other bleeding in doctrine/theology through the translation. I’ve never had issue with John 3:16 so I never did a complete drill down on it. I always understood it (correctly, I guess). (I mean the holy spirit always just gave it to me — look at me with all the “I” s.
At any rate, I did a very quick look to original script Greek. The word believe in John 3:16 in Greek is “pisteuō” When you break out Greek translation on it you will see the word pulls in more than just believe. Also, running pisteuō through a concordance confirms completely. The word in this sense pulls in the type and elements of pisteuō for salvation, healing, prayer, etc. Its a multi level thing to pisteuō – repent, know who God is (not falling for the “another Jesus”), etc.
Additionally, and further confirmation/test. The bible always harmonizes. And now, knowing the correct meaning of the verse, other verses such as “even the demons believe and tremble”— certainly they are not saved, yet believe. They lack capacity for pisteuō.
The Word is always right and always harmonizes — any time a seeming contradiction appears, its just a gold nugget awaiting – God wants us to humbly challenge it and it glorifies him every time. I’ve check ALOT and they only entity proved wrong has been religion, not God.
God bless
So in other words you have to believe Jesus was the son of god, which atheists never would. At least, that’s what I could get from what you have said. Did I misconstrue that?
Hi Matthew,
Thanks for your comments. With all due respect I want to object to your definition of the Gospel:
We have to be careful when telling people how to get to Heaven. The notion that good works, being kind to others and helping those in need are what gets us to Heaven builds a doctrine that we “earn our salvation” by our own actions. This is not what the Bible says. We are not saved by our own works. We are saved only by the work of Jesus Christ:
It is grace that saves us. Grace by definition is favor that is undeserved. It is unmerited. That is what God did for us. We do not deserve forgiveness. We have not earned any pardon. All we deserve is hell and the lake of fire for the sins we have willingly chosen to do all our lives (and still do today). Yet God, in His love for us, sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross and take our punishment. It was Jesus who did the work. It was The Lord Jesus Christ who took our punishment that we deserved so we could be declared righteous before God. Our nice actions do NOTHING to earn or achieve salvation. Nothing whatsoever. The passage in Ephesians makes this clear. Salvation is a “gift of God”. It is not something we earn through our works, “lest any man should boast.”
It is critical that we teach children, teens and anyone of any age the Biblical Gospel. This is the most important thing a person can know so make sure that what you are teaching lines up with Scripture. For more information on this, please see our Salvation page here.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. I am more than happy to answer. God bless you abundantly. -B&E
Keep in mind what he was teaching was straight from the scripture. The problem lies either in the translation of the scripture, or in that different parts of the bible say different things about this topic.
Hi Leechris,
Or it could be that he was reading a passage out of context, which I believe to be the case in this instance. -B&E
Yes, that was one of my two options. This is one reason I don’t think discussions seem to progress much here, it’s as if what I’m saying is not entirely understood. If you got what I was saying you would know I already mentioned that possibility.
Christians are not the way the truth and the life. Jesus is. Christians are often indistinguishable from atheists. They are rude, self seeking, cold people. They are not following Jesus. They are living as though his grace is enough to cover all their sins. They don’t realize that Jesus called us out of sin. If grace is enough good, but I believe Jesus called us to more. I’m glad I got to talk to you leechris and I will continue to pray that Jesus would show up in your life, but this message board is not productive for my spiritual health anymore. Good luck / God bless.
Seriously there are worse things then religion that hurts kids.
Why would a loving God force people into Heaven?? .D
So you are now judging Einstein? Hum…
The only reason Einstein made his “greatest blunder”, is because he kept thinking that a god would’t play “dice” with the universe and when you have preconceived notions of things, that’s what happens. Which exactly what you people do here. You have your book and you want reality to mold to the book.
EVIL –
The idea that we need evil to be good, is absurd. We are not talking about colors here, we are talking about human behavior. Evil doesn’t exist, what does exist however, is different levels of mental health and it’s consequences. From a chemical balanced brain that makes logical decisions to the completely unbalanced chemical brain that is medically called amongst many a psychopath. As always, religious people LOVE to simplify things to the point of fantasy.
The LOVE of God.
What Love of God? I’ve yet to see any of it. 25 thousand people die every day of starvation alone, and the reasons for it are IRRELEVANT.
If someone entered my house and wanted to hurt my family, I would NOT ask the person why he is doing it, i’d kick ass and ask questions later. The excuse of your God allowing psychopaths to hurt people simply because they have freewill is preposterous, inexcusable and childish.
The Bible and Science –
Genesis is completely WRONG. In the beginning there was NO light, NO earth and No water.
There was however, light elements and dust. MILLIONS of years of gravitational forces pulling all the dust and those three elements together created the first giant suns. Those suns exploded and created heavy elements which the process of gravity then pulled together to create smaller suns and planets, including our Earth after 10 BILLION years!
There was no water on earth for MILLIONS of years after earth was created.
You have NO understanding of the universe, yet you are here speaking as if you were an astrophysicist. Go back to school friend and then come back.
The Tests –
As you can see, your test of the bible is FLAWED to say the least.
Go to youtube and search: what genesis got wrong. That video is pretty accurate and easy to understand.
Your bible is NOTHING more than a 2000 year old book written by sheep hoarders, just like the Quran who has it’s own claims of science and NOTHING more.
Heaven and Hell –
To create a place called hell with a lake of fire, is the creation of a monster. To then turn around and tell those people that they either follow you or you will throw them in that lake is even MORE hideous!
Forcing freewill –
Would you force your child to use seat-belts? Again, you people LOVE to simply to the point of nonsense.
Rejecting God –
No one should need to accept or reject god based on the information we have, because the information we have is — USELESS to anyone that uses rationality!
I don’t need anyone telling me about a false god who does nothing more than to blame people for his mistakes.
Religion is a waist of time.
Me personally, would be very happy sipping margaritas, while traveling everywhere with a couple of beautiful girls till the heavens disappear.
But I guess your god is into waisting everyones time with selfish and useless guilt, sin, devils, angels, and the rest of the useless things in your world.
Have fun with that.
Hi Dorian,
Just wanted to interject on your one point since you mentioned astrophysics. What is your tangible, empirical evidence for the origin of matter itself? You started going back millions of years but never gave your scientifically proven explanation for where matter itself originated.
E=mc2
Matter and energy are one and the same. The net energy of the universe is zero, therefore there was no matter, time or space before the Big Bang. Just perfect symmetry of nothing, then a quantum fluctuation caused the Big Bang and now we have entropy.
Beats, god done it and it actually makes predictions possible, isn’t that amazying? Hum…
The Big Bang presupposes matter. It does not presuppose “nothing.” Furthermore, there is no empirical proof of it. A formula is not proof. You still have not provided it.
On that same note you still have yet to provide the name of our genetic ancestor we evolved from. This was another “proof” you have not provided.
Quantum vacuum fluctuations are a real thing. Tiny specs that make up the particles of matter appear and disappear on a whim in a vacuum. It really did come from nothing, and there have been tests to prove it.
Yes. I personally witnessed The Great Space Vacuum doing this very act of creation. It revealed Itself to me in a dream. I pray to It every night, thanking It for my existence, for giving me consciousness and purpose, endowing me with unvacuumable rights. In Vacuum We Trust!
Hi Leechris,
Welcome back and Happy New Year. Once again, you are commenting on things that are simulated in a lab. It’s not “something from nothing.” It’s something from a vacuum created in a lab with millions of dollars of equipment. Furthermore, a quantum fluctuation assumes energy already exists, but rather than being constant, there is a slight change that allows for something “new” to appear. I’m not a physicist but that does not sound like something ex nihilo.
And at the end of the day, even for scientists who completely agree with you, it’s all speculation. There’s no proof that’s how the universe originated. And there are still scores of scientists who disagree. It’s all just guesswork and nothing empirically proven.
So after all this time you still have not provided the empirical proof of the origin of matter. And weren’t you also going to provide proof of more historical evidence for Alexander the Great than The Lord Jesus Christ? -B&E
I teach what Jesus says. If you disagree with Jesus please talk to him about it. Or explain to me why Jesus says what he says in Matthew 25. Sheep go to heaven goats go to hell. he doesnt say some sheep and some goats go to heaven some sheep and goats go to hell. He does not even mention grace. Jesus talks about actions paul talks about grace.
B&E, while the experiment was conducted in a lab it has been shown to also take place within a natural vacuum such as in space. Energies reaction to it and the experiment being conducted in a lab have both been irrelevant.
While that is true that it has not been proven to be 100% the case it is a realistic natural answer that is plausible in telling us how our world works. So long as it fits those criteria a world that doesn’t require a god becomes possible, and is thusly more believe able than one without a god.
The tests themselves are enough to build the evidence for the creation despite the fact that you do not seem to agree with the means that is done. It could just come down to wether or not you think it works well enough. As for Alexander the Great, I remember a discussion on that, but can’t say I remember where it is. All I know is whenever I came here to answer a question it was through a link in my emails from a reply, and I did not get a new email. You may have to help me find it again.
Something being “plausible” is not evidence. It is merely theory, speculation and guesswork. As I said, there are many scientists who disagree with everything you are proposing.
As I have said to you many times before, you have just decided to put faith that science will figure it all out someday. At the end of the day, you are a faith-based believer, not an evidentiary-based one, because the evidence for what you believe does not exist.
Re: Alexander the Great – If I recall correctly, you were going to provide a great deal of extant ancient documents about Alexander the Great from the time he was alive. In an effort to show much more easily it was to prove his existence than that of Jesus Christ.
Mathew, in the well known and recited john 3:16 it says that god gave his own son so that whoever believes in him will have eternal life. It does not specify at they have to be good or bad people, just that they believe in him. Or is it saying, when you take both into account, that good Christians to to heaven, bad Christians to hell, and non Christians just die?
Here is where you are wrong, B&E. The entire reason that it matters that it is plausible is that it means that a world without god could have and is thus more likely to have happened than one without a god. The reason I don’t 100% accept the answers and am willing to change my views is for the same reason people are willing to not believe in them! because they arnt completely answered! but we have enough to tell us that out would is more than likely created strictly through natural processes! and because of this believing in the ideas that a god is necessary suddenly becomes more ridiculous than believing in a natural world. My ideology is not faith based because what I believe to be sways with whatever has the most evidence to happen, because it has enough evidence to support it’s likelihood it can not be faith based. That is where you are purely mistaken in what I believe due to your implications and false translations of what I have said.
And now I will repeat this part one more time, if you bring it up after this I will ignore it because I have told you this already. Comment on the Alexander the Great thing so that I can get an email about it and find it again. This comment section is far too long for me to sit and scroll through all. If you can’t help me find it, since I am too busy, then you obviously don’t care enough about it even though you keep bringing it up. Iid be more than happy to talk about it if you just pointed me in the right direction, because as far as I remember I was the last one to say something and you never replied to my answer, which is why I stopped replying.
Now do you have anything else that may be misconstrued I can clarify for you? I can also explain my reason for being a gnostic atheist, or why I believe that a god like figure is impossible and improbable for realistic reasons, or even why if one did exist it would not be worth worshipping. I can answer any of these if you’d like.
Hey Leechris,
Can you provide a link to some experiments that were conducted using the vacuum thing. It would be beneficial for me to read it and see it for myself.
Thanks!
Hello again, B&E. It’s been a while since I answered your question on Alexander the Great and three others and shown how they truly do have more evidence than Jesus does, despite what you have said. I’m still waiting on a reply, it is on a comment close to the bottom. You just seemed to have gone silent after I finally answered the question you brought up multiple times despite the fact that you didn’t link me to our previous posts like I asked.
I believe the matter existed in clusters that were attracted to a point of great pull until it reached a breaking point which caused the Big Bang to set off, and probably while creating the universe trapping the nearby unused matter within it as well. I believe that to say we are the only example of this happening is wrong, and that there are other universes even existing right now along with ours, but with no relation at all, and even universes that have existed and ended before ours came into being. As for where matter itself came from that can not be answered, perhaps in the world outside of the universe there might be such things as photos in light rays existing, or none might and hence there is no light outside of the universe. We do not know, and unless we can travel much faster then the universe can expand for maybe many thousands of years, at the least, we won’t know. But science is limited only by our capabilities, we may one day find a way to travel out of the universe or we will be forever trapped in here never knowing what lies outside of all we’ve ever known.
LeeChris,
You talk a lot about “I believe…I believe….I believe” but offer no objective rationale for why you believe. Essentially, you offer nothing more than your “opinion,” which is no more or less valid than the opinion of anyone else who posts on this site. You also say what other people believe is “wrong.” But again, you offer no objective rationale for why it is wrong. One can only conclude then, that it is your intention that everyone should just believe as you do simply because you do.
I have offered (on this site) objective, scientific evidence for the existence of God. I didn’t just toss out my opinion or belief. I would be more than happy to engage you on the topic based on the objective truth, but not on unfounded opinions.
Hi Leechris,
“I believe…” “I believe..” “I believe…” Where is your empirical, scientifically-verified proof? You are claiming the example of other universes identical to ours, yet have provided no evidence.
And when it comes to the origin of matter, you not only concede that you do not know, you are expressing faith that science will one day “figure it out.” So like the many other posters who claim to be people of reason and science, you are a faith-based believer like any person of any religion.
Why yes, I clearly remember saying “BELIEVE AS I DO RIGHT NOW BECA– USE I AM RIGHT”
Oh wait, I never said that. I merely stated what I believed to be right, I did not explain it because at the time there was no need, I was just expressing my opinion like everyone else, if you have any evidence why I’m wrong feel free to bring it up as I do if I have any evidence of why others are. The object is to express what you know to others to help shape their own ideas and create a new concept of what they think of as right, and here all I was doing was saying what not why because nobody as of yet showed interest (since there wasn’t a chance yet)
I have reasons for the opinions I provide, and I have read most of your comments (not all since I didn’t have the time) if you wish to bring up the evidence I obviously missed that indefinitely prove god then feel free, but from everything I have read I have seen no credible evidence. I’d be more then happy to explain why I think what I do if it means you’d express why you think you do, feel free to point out why you think I’m wrong and ill do the same
Leechris,
Okay, let’s dialog. But, I expect you to provide “reasons” for your position(s). Your opinion is as worthless as my opinion. So I will provide objective reasons for my positions, and you will provide objective reasons for yours – yes? Your age is no excuse for not being able to support your assertions. If you need a few days to research something before you respond, I am okay with that, but we both must be able to support our assertions with objective, rational, arguments. Can you agree to these ground rules?
Jonathan
I never even said I believed in identical universes, I said I believed in ones independent of our own. Since our universe exists then you can assume that there are circumstances for which it can come into existence active outside of the universe, so why is it so hard to believe that we aren’t in the only universe that could have come about this way? I do not believe anything by faith, I find as much evidence as possible and derive an answer throu the logical thinking and understanding of how things work, and if I am proven wrong indefinitely I will accept it. I do not have faith science will one day understand the truth, I know it for a fact that the way science works the more we advance the more we can learn, so long as we continue advancing we may be able to one day find that answer. Notice I didn’t say it was for a fact that we would find it.
At the end of the day, you still have not provided evidence. All you are doing is stating suppositions. What is the origin of matter? Either you have empirical, scientific, verifiable proof from the origin of matter, or you just don’t know. A supposition inherently requires faith (because you not have evidence and suppose something to be so absent it), so yes, you are indeed a faith-based believer on this issue.
Then a mail me and I will provide you won’t the evidence that lets me reach my conclusions, I can not easily keep a conversation up here and would prefer it on an easier-to-access way so I know I can cover everything
Alright John, but if we are to do this can you email me for it? I can’t keep checking back here, because its too long and lags my iPad too much, it would just be much easier for me to talk through email instead. If needed we could even use a Facebook message or anything besides a long comments section to a page, whatever you wish to talk on let me know, if its this I can try to deal with it.
First
I agree that “evil” does not exist, but it is a word we use to describe certain things that happen to us (most of which are caused by other people) It would not be possible to make a choice in a universe in which all moral choices are restricted to only good ones! One Can not choose between good (behavior) and bad (behavior) if bad did not exist. It is a simple logical principle.
second:
You make the claim that ” God does nothing more then to blame people for his mistakes” wherever u get that from, then u blame God for our mistakes!!?? where is you’re logic? God did not create faulty humans, humans became faulty because they chose it. If u read the story about Adam And eve it was the devil who tricked eve to eat from the forbidden tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was the devil who tricked them to committing sin.
“The excuse of your God allowing psychopaths to hurt people simply because they have freewill is preposterous, inexcusable and childish.”
If God had created the universe with no possibility of evil or sin, then the created beings would have had no free will, you would not be the same person, and such beings would be incapable of love, since love involves making a choice – which requires the ability to choose not to love. Then if free will did not exist we would be like programmed computers is that what u prefer?. U can program you’re computer to say “i love you” when it starts up but it is not real. God could have programmed us to do that but he didn’t like a loving God to me. This universe were never created to be perfect morally or physically, but were spiritual beings can have a choice to love or reject God so there is a reason for everything. We are supposed to learn from this life not just have a party, The vital question for us therefore is not to ask, “Why does God allow this?” The question for us is to make sure that we are learning the lesson, and repenting before God for the sin in our own hearts, and in the entire human race, which leads to such results. God hates our sins but loves us.
Why we got the psychopaths u refer to in the first place is because of the society we live in. We allow people to become psychopaths AND we never LEARN! we hear about one event on the news and the next day it is all forgotten then history repeats itself!. The ever increasing media violence, violence in games is keep getting worse etz, studies prove this increases violent behavior. Kids from 2 years and up who are being consumed by this hours everyday is no good, the parents also has a responsibility.
I will answer one point at a time as i am at bar having a nice coffee stout beer.
Your first point states that there MUST be wrong for good to be part of a choice.
My question would be, what will the logistics be in heaven?
Will every one be good and how?
Point no 2.
How old are you?
Do you understand that YOU just said that it was the devil who TRICKED adam and eve. But I thought you said there was no evil? Is the devil evil or not? Make up your mind!
Good and Bad – Again!
You speak as if you where a psychologist, but you are NOT.
You insist that humans could not have freewill unless there was good and evil. But you are WRONG.
You mix up love with choice and freewill. When people fall in love, they don’t have a choice! Love is BLIND!
Good choices have NOTHING to do with being a robot!
It’s about being smart enough, which means you need a GOOD WORKING BRAIN.
It’s about being mentally balanced and not mentally ill, again a good working body.
BOTH ARE INHERITED AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH FREEWILL.
and it’s about education!
If you where born schizophrenic, you wouldn’t have the luxury of making good decisions!
Do you UNDERSTAND THAT?
Psychopaths are NOT a result of our society? Mentally ill people do NOT get better without treatment. Go study psychology and then come back and post.
Again you are wrong.
VIDEO Games
Seriously, do you really thing that video games are destroying the world? The world is getting BETTER. Do you see people being eaten by lions in an arena lately? NO
Do you see gladiators with swords fighting to the death? NO
Again, you are NOT a psychologist and you DON’T know what you are talking about.
Love of God –
So then, what LOVE is that you speak of when you talk about your god?
is it the love of when a person is born mentally ill?
Is it love when a child is born with it’s heart out?
is it love when a family dies in a car accident?
Is it love when a decease spreads killing millions? Tsunamis? Earthquakes?
DO WE HAVE A CHOICE IN ANY OF THOSE?
Where is your freewill in any of this?
If the world was full of intelligent well balanced individuals with enough resources so as to not have to fight for those resources, there would not be a problem.
Free will has NOTHING to do with god and bad, and good and bad is not a necessity of freewill.
I can choose from a cheesecake or a chocolate cake, I have my freewill and NO need for GOOD and BAD.
You are WRONG!
Let me ask you a question Dorian on this subject of telling children about hell. Firstly, what age children are you referencing and who did the study? Can you site a source that is credible? If it is “Psychology Today” or a secular work, please cite the year the study was done. Even if it is a Christian psychology magazine, please give the year and authors of both articles or studies. We are just talking about the impact of talking to children about hell, nothing else. Please cite your sources.
http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/118
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_religion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LdN4NVNdnQ
“And as the capacity for believing is strongest in childhood, special care is taken to make sure of this tender age. This has much more to do with the doctrines of belief taking root than threats and reports of miracles. If, in early childhood, certain fundamental views and doctrines are paraded with unusual solemnity, and an air of the greatest earnestness never before visible in anything else; if, at the same time, the possibility of a doubt about them be completely passed over, or touched upon only to indicate that doubt is the first step to eternal perdition, the resulting impression will be so deep that, as a rule, that is, in almost every case, doubt about them will be almost as impossible as doubt about one’s own existence.”
—Arthur Schopenhauer, On Religion: A Dialogue
Dorian How do you know there is no god … just because you have not experienced him , does not mean there is not a god.
After 3 a.m.! Shouldn’t Dorian be in bed?
Hello,
I’m curious if you are a christian woman and her husband is a non-believer, why did you marry him? It’s obvious that with you a god believing woman and her husband being an unbeliever is gonna cause some problems on your marriage.
Do Not Be Unequally Yoked
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?…
source: http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/6-14.htm
the bible states that this is a no, so I am curious to why you married him? As a non-believer I don’t date christian guys even though many have approached and asked me out. No sense in having them date me then try to convert me or date me and feel miserable in the relationship because they can not share the word of God with me.
Thanks B&E for this article. I have also read all the comments below. You handled them very well, with grace and dignity and professionalism.
So the only sources you have to back this website up is from Wikipedia? As you should know that is not considered a reliable source since anyone can go on and write whatever they want. You also know that the Historians you are referring to where all born after Jesus supposedly died and were writing down second hand stories. As for your analysis on Homer vs. Jesus, you do know that there are more references to Homer as really existing than Jesus? Pick up a real history book and cite that for you information instead of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an immediate red flag for truthful information.
Shane,
How do you know that ALL of the sources are from Wikipedia?? I could not find that anywhere… If you are interested in talking with someone who has personally witnessed Heaven or Hell there are many sources all around that you could look up and find, many books that you could read about it.
Here are some I will refer to you:
“Proof of Heaven” by Dr. Eben Alexander (A Neuroscientist who did NOT believe in God before his encounter) To read more about this book go to:
http://magazine.foxnews.com/love/heaven-real-neurosurgeon-shares-his-story-about-afterlife
“Heaven is for REAL” by Todd Burpo
It is about Todd’s son Colton who died during surgery at 4years old and it is all based on what Colton said he saw and the weird things that he knows happened at the same time he died… which there is no physically possible way he could have known!! This book changed my life.. I really encourage you to read it.
You can watch the video at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EACV0QuG0-c
Another story about Mr. Regan who was an atheist, who had a violent altercation with another man at a convenience store, where he had a near death experience… and he can tell you his story himself… very very interesting.
The video is:
(Part I): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvIbqf7MuE0
(Part II): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cF_gJgILBiE
An Atheist named Ian McCormack was stung by 5 deadly jellyfish…. He died and he can tell you his story himself:
The video is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59mRZ1Vj8ZU
Professor Howard Storm at 38years old was an atheist and had a hole in his stomach.. he died and explains what he experienced.
You can see his interview at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vj0qKthCgg
You can just research many stories and even meet with these people!! I’m sure they would be happy to speak to you in person about their experiences!!
Hope this is helpful!!
This post is so funny, I can’t stop laughing!
A few stories about people who clearly have mental issues and or have agendas, and we’re supposed to believe them.
I guess I should take every Tom, Dick and Harry who claim to have been abducted by aliens!
Seriously, do any of you know what a controlled experiment is?
That’s when you can’t CHEAT or LIE about something because you would be caught in the LIE.
Everything you are showing here is COMPLETELY OPEN TO FALSIFICATION!
Churches make MILLIONS on gullible people who pay to have the POWER OF JESUS heal them, just to then go back home and DIE!
When will you people learn?
Hi Dorian,
I was just looking over your messages to Fender and I would like to make response to your comments, respectfully.
——
“Good and Bad – Again!
“You speak as if you where a psychologist, but you are NOT.
“You insist that humans could not have freewill unless there was good and evil. But you are WRONG.
Actually, evil has no existence of its own; it is merely the absence of good. I believe this is what Fender meant to say. Just as cold does not exist on its own, it is the absence of heat. It is the same concept with light and darkness. Once Adam and Eve failed to obey, goodness left from them and they became sinful.
God created everything to be good, and it was indeed good. One of the things He had done was to give us the freedom of choice. If He had not, imagine what it’d be like to worship a god that compels us to love him without any choice to do so. Would it be right for parents to force (not command) their children to love, respect, and obey them? I know it certainly would be out of fear and insincerity! God allowed Adam and Eve to choose as they wished, with full knowledge of His commandment given to them. And that is just what they had done. God made full assurance that they knew His commandment. He cannot let disobedience flee without a consequence.
“You mix up love with choice and freewill. When people fall in love, they don’t have a choice! Love is BLIND!
Love is a choice and it is out of freewill. Love is a commitment. When people “fall in love”, they fall in the likeness of each other. It is then after that, they choose to love each other.
It is the same with friends, one chooses to love them. I choose to love God, and I also choose to live for Him.
“Good choices have NOTHING to do with being a robot!
Having no freedom of choice is similar to being a computer or robot. They are all programmed in order to fulfill something with little to no choice.
“It’s about being smart enough, which means you need a GOOD WORKING BRAIN.
“It’s about being mentally balanced and not mentally ill, again a good working body.
“BOTH ARE INHERITED AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH FREEWILL.
All of which you have listed is what God has given us to have the capability of freewill, including more.
“and it’s about education!
“If you where born schizophrenic, you wouldn’t have the luxury of making good decisions!
“Do you UNDERSTAND THAT?
Illnesses in general, are not of God’s work. It is either from heredity or one’s own life experiences- a consequence of sin. It is to the extent of one’s own illness in which one freely chooses God. If one’s illness is severe, to the point of where one can not make any choice, then one does not have to choose a thing, after his life he will be with the Lord, along with the younger children who have not reached the age of understanding.
Now, do you grasp that?
“Psychopaths are NOT a result of our society? Mentally ill people do NOT get better without treatment. Go study psychology and then come back and post.
Honestly, I have NEVER seen a mentally ill person become completely healthy with treatment; it causes more problems and difficulties. Though treatment may help in one area, but not in another. Mine was a product of consistent thoughts, doubts, and insecurities. I found that only God could fully heal me. I looked to the world to satisfy my needs and desires. But not one, not anyone could heal my illness or my heart! That is when I turned to God-I received the most genuine love, kindness, respect, peace, and assurance. He is like no other. No medicine or ANY treatment could measure up to my God.
“Again you are wrong.
“VIDEO Games
“Seriously, do you really thing that video games are destroying the world? The world is getting BETTER. Do you see people being eaten by lions in an arena lately? NO
“Do you see gladiators with swords fighting to the death? NO
“Again, you are NOT a psychologist and you DON’T know what you are talking about.
Of course, the world is becoming more advance, but it’s also becoming more dangerous than previous times. Think about it. There are more wars than ever before, famine, gruesome murders, child molesters, robbers, suicides, hate, diseases, illnesses and more.
My younger brother has a few friends who constantly converse about shooting people, killing people, and more corrupted violence without a justifiable foundation of doing such things. Video games certainly do consume the mind of one, and can cause one to think in a harmful way. We had to throw away many of my brothers games because they were violent and hurting him gradually. He began to think about these things daily.
“Love of God –
“So then, what LOVE is that you speak of when you talk about your god?
“is it the love of when a person is born mentally ill?
Is it love when a child is born with it’s heart out?
is it love when a family dies in a car accident?
Is it love when a decease spreads killing millions? Tsunamis? Earthquakes?
“DO WE HAVE A CHOICE IN ANY OF THOSE?
“Where is your freewill in any of this?
What you have listed is allowed to happen through sin. If God would have ceased a consequence for disobedience (sin) this world would be severely corrupted with no law or obedience from any of it’s inhabitants.
We do have a freewill and choice. It is the freewill and choice to choose God and put our complete trust in Him, so that we may grow in wisdom and understanding of His Word, or to continue to let the consequences of disobedience corrupt us, to blame God for every action done by our sin, and continue to stumble with growth of only worldly knowledge.
“If the world was full of intelligent well balanced individuals with enough resources so as to not have to fight for those resources, there would not be a problem.
“Free will has NOTHING to do with god and bad, and good and bad is not a necessity of freewill.
“I can choose from a cheesecake or a chocolate cake, I have my freewill and NO need for GOOD and BAD.
“You are WRONG!
Instead of focusing and choosing God’s unchanging love, we choose our own way and we merely blame God for not doing anything about it—because of that, we chose not to follow Him. He is simply allowing (not making) these things to happen so that we may have the ability to choose, or to not choose Him. Because He wants us to have Him, He’s given us a way to Him, through His Son, Jesus Christ. My Healer, my Protector, my Lord came to change men’s hearts through the Holy Spirit! He has helped me, and is in continuation of doing so. He has helped many people who choose to follow Him regardless of their situation. IF God had not restrained evil (allowed it to occur with no consequence), this world would be far more worse than it is already. He allows us to suffer the consequence of evil to choose Him freely! Deuteronomy 5:29
He Is (Quote)
Hi Shane, can you tell me what a “real” history book is and where I can get one? I mean there are thousands and thousands of works, please tell me which history book is a “real” one?
Jesus Christ sends this message, in Spanish, warning about Maitreya, in a little sanctuary of Argentina (Use a good translator to understand well the message)
Link: http://www.santuario.com.ar/paginas/bp_044.html#Anchor-14344
…This is a traduction using google’s translator: WARNINGS OPERATE THE ANTICHRIST…
He will be an imposter
November 10, 2000. Peace be with you, my flock of sheep. That’s right, my sheep flock: and I call you and that you will always, as my love for you is still intact and my concern for your salvation continually. I come here today to realize yourselves a warning: You will soon see a powerful appear false prophet, forerunner of that, my great enemy, which will be presented later. You must know in advance to be on guard, for his preaching and his power will be great, and many will go after him. Be alert not to fall, remain united in love and prayer and Invoke when you need me, and I will be with you. Be at peace. Receive my blessing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (“Amen”). Rest in peace knowing that your Lord is watching over you. Be faithful! Peace. Hebrews, Cap. 3, Vers. 7 to 11.
You realize there is more than just parchment that Plato and Ceaser existed. A handful of men who wrote of Jesus, some never even living during his time, is not proof enough. There is plenty of info on King Arthur, and many believe he is real, still no solid proof beyond words can prove your faith in either of them.
I would like proof that Jesus taught “the bible”, and stamped his approval over what was said. The bible is a source of evil and lies. I see the bible created the same way Book of Mormon was created, which was just stories pulled out of someone’s hat.
The proof of the bible is always under question, cause it claims many things that have been disproved and I don’t think Jesus used his God powers to help Moses with the facts of creation in Genesis or that god will burn you in hell for not following his son’s teachings and believing in the holy ghost?! I am sure the real Jesus didn’t say anything of this nature and your all worshiping what man wants you to worship, and you believe in stories that were written by men who had no real idea of what the truth was.
Only those who “have faith” still believe in those non-facts that were obviously made up of folktales and fiction. This makes the bible a source of dis-credited information and making the tales of Jesus fiction and folktales that can’t be trusted as what really happened. Would you believe a part of a book, if the other part claimed Adam and Eve lived 6,000 years ago, when Egyptians and Men were worshiping other gods that have the same story as Jesus?? Faith has nothing to do with it! Still, Christians have faith in men who lived before the Dark Ages, and of stories they wrote, and have faith that no one tampered with the Bible. They also have faith that what the bible says is what Jesus taught.
Even if Jesus existed, the fact is the Christianity we know, is not the same as it was or the way Jesus intended it to be. The fact that Constantine and all the dis-organized church decided on what the truth should be, is proof enough that what Christians believe today, was easily manipulated over 2000 years to be whatever man wanted it to be. I mean the bible doesn’t even have Jesus’s signature of approval. I have faith in Jesus, but I don’t have faith in Man.
Still I believe Jesus was a real man and not a god, even the gospels prove that! History can show that men can be real from stories, look at Priam and Troy, once thought of only as fiction. The fact is no one can “prove he didn’t exist” or prove he wasn’t a God. I just want to point out, that if were debating over his nonexistence, than we should probably be worried about what were worshiping.
Matt,
If Jesus was only a man then where is his deceased body?? They have found his tomb where his body should be.. and the cloth his body was wrapped in… but where is his body now then??
Who says that they have found the tomb and the cloth?
That’s news to me!
Seriously, where do you come up with this?
Dorain, even if you do not believe in Christ, He believes in you and He loves you and is still fighting for you. The only thing you need to do is make a choice. No one is forcing you to believe , that is all up to you. Make the right decision.
The only thing about that, cc. If Jesus is real, who is to say nobody moved the rock themselves and then stole and destroyed the body? Maybe using someone of great liveliness or a clever disguise to pretend to be him before tricking even more people, if that is what happened. But I don’t see much evidence for either and the lack of credibility in the sources listed in this article aren’t enough to constitute as evidence, they aren’t perfect evidence but most likely men writing stories they heard and believed may have been stories of events instead of just that, stories.
Hi Leechris,
Again, you seem to contradicting yourself or at least applying inconsistent standards of evaluation. How do we know that Alexander the Great conquered Darius and Persia at Grancias? Do you believe he did? Did he really defeat Egypt? Did he really marry and bless 10,000 Macedonian marriages at one time? And let’s not forget that he claimed he was a god. Do you believe he was this mighty military conqueror or were the stories just made up by men who heard and believed just that, stories?
Because certainly the actual extant evidence of Alexander the great is miniscule compared to the evidence of the life of Jesus Christ. The records of the life and events in the life of Jesus are thousands of times more abundant and centuries closer to the time of his life. So again, when you look at the evidence objectively, the evidence not just for the existence of Jesus, but the events of His life, are far greater than Alexander the Great, a historical figure who has all manner of phenomenal feats and achievements attributed to him.
So I assume you don’t believe Alexander accomplished any of those things, correct?
Yes of course, there is more evidence for a person who lived a life greatly similar to Mithras who was worshiped as a good before Jesus, had a Virginia birth, was a man-god, and was killed to raise again in three days then a roman empower who left a great mark on multiple ethnic groups by his actions, yes of course.
I do not claim to know exact details of his life, but I know that there are enough uninfluenced references to him from his time to see that he was real, the only people to write about Jesus was after he was long dead, and there is not much evidence outside of those books. Maybe if Jesus’s story wasn’t so close to that of another god born of man on December 25th from a virgin then he would be at least a little more believable.
Hi Leechris,
I assume you have not yet read our article which addresses the false claims you are making (which mostly come from the movie Zeitgeist, as opposed to historical sources):
https://beginningandend.com/jesus-copy-horus-mithras-dionysis-pagan-gods/
I welcome you to look at the article as it addresses these allegations of Jesus being a copy of Mithras, Horus and other pagan deities.
Please email me so I can discuss this further if you please, I am finding it dificult to even find all of the places you have replied and would very much prefer a more organized way to discuss these things
I will email you, but I am asking very simple questions. And you have yet to answer any of them.
There still are no contemporaries? The historians claims are all hearsay.
Great claims require great proof.
You are still left holding the bag.
There still are no contemporaries? The historians claims are all hearsay.
Great claims require great proof.
You are still left holding an empty bag. Try harder diluted followers.
That was a 1 sided argument that wasn’t meant to prove anything. I actually find it full of crap. The reason people like me, call out crazy ideas, because were willing to ask questions. Jesus didn’t become the Messiah by following what the Jewish Church was doing. It stood up, and called out fallacies to the men who had a monopoly on Jewish worship. Its us who question things and find enlightenment who truly learn from the bible. While those trapped in “organized religions” grasp, fear what they say, that you won’t even analyze any document from any perspective outside of “faith”.
My only true argument against organized religion, is that what your taught and modern notions, are nothing like what they really are. They built a psychological circle that leaves any God Fearing man helpless. Is it coincidence that centuries went by during dark ages ( savage times), because Church had all the answers so man didn’t question anything, and the Renaissance comes, with people less bonded by the Church, and invent and bring so much beauty which furthers man kinds grasp of the world. Instead of calling leprosy a demon in the body, men who ask questions, eventually find real treatment, besides a Jesus Placebo of being blessed.
I was taught by my Dad on how to be a good Christian, and the church taught me a good number of things like how to be a good member of the community. But what I learn in my private studies with just me and the bible, and from research papers, documentaries and books….
What I learn is nothing like what I was taught in church. Jesus isn’t the man they painted for me, and all of the bibles amazing stories are put out of context into what they want it to be. Taking historical documents, and archaeology research of Jesus’s time, it doesn’t match up at all with modern Jesus or what a lot of Churches teach.
For example, Jesus was a Jewish man, who spent his whole life a jew, and what he taught was meant to be a Jewish Religion that turned more for Poor People. He had dark hair and dark eyes, with Middle Eastern Skin, with a beard of a “terrorist”. He was born into a very poor family, from a Mother who was younger than 14, who happened to be not married when getting prego, and was stoned from her village. Jesus does not have Jospeh’s blood in him, nor does the male gene from David or Solomon; daughters do not carry the male Y-DNA. So Mary’s and Jospeh’s other kids, would have actually had the blood line.
I just find it odd that Christians would deny so much of what Jesus was and denounce Jews! When their savior believed in Judaism, and preached it. Christians think this is their religion, but Old Testament was around before Jesus. Jesus was built to be the Jewish Messiah, matching every little fact that must be to be the Messiah from riding a donkey to being a miracle worker like John the Baptist, but he was denied by them! Jesus took up John’s gig and sect for poor jews, and took it for his own after Rome beheaded him on the spot and documented it historically at the time of this age. While Jesus who is equal of power, can’t seem to be just killed on the spot like almost every other miracle man. No, he has to fit the Messiah profile. So he need to be betrayed to get him, then is tortured and Crucified, instead of just being killed on the spot like all the other miracle workers.
I found that the Bibles written pages were not written during Jesus’s life, so the only thing that is said to be “approved” by Jesus is the Old Testament. While the New Testament was written by people who weren’t even born til after Jesus was dead. They happen to pick many certain gospels over others to fit the profile for Jesus to be god. A real Christian like myself, actually reads these gospels instead of hiding from them cause they claim Jesus to just be just another man, who loves Mary like a Man should.
Hi,
None of these sources are without doubt to them and could not be admitted seriously as a form of ‘PROOF’. Josephus for instance is known to have later been doctored, nothing from that time period is credible without a ‘chain of custody’ proof and breakdown to go along with it， ｔｏ ｗｈｉｃｈ ｔｈｉｓ ｉｓ ｂａｓｉｃａｌｌｙ ｉｍｐｏｓｓｉｂｌｅ. This is why everything is so highly based on BELIEF as you can NOT prove most of the things in the bible. You can BARELY prove JC existed! Ｉ ａｌｗａｙｓ ｗｏｎｄｅｒ ｈｏｗ ａｍａｚｉｎｇ ｉｔ ｉｓ ｔｈａｔ ＧＯＤ ｌｉｖｅｄ ｉｎ ｔｈｅ ｆｌｅｓｈ ａｎｄ ｎｏ ＣＯＮＴＥＭＰＯＲＡＲＹ ｈｉｓｔｏｒｉａｎ ｗｒｏｔｅ ａｂｏｕｔ ｈｉｍ． ＥＶＥＲＹＯＮＥ ｗｏｕｌｄ ｂｅ ｗｒｉｔｉｎｇ ａｂｏｕｔ ｉｔ ｉｎ ｒｅａｌｉｔｙ．
Ａｌｓｏ You can’t take a source in question and use it as a PREMISE for your argument such as the new testaments as proof as well, fallacy of logic (Iｋｎｏｗ ｙｏｕ ｗｒｏｔｅ ｏｔｈｅｒｗｉｓｅ）. ５０ ｙｅａｒｓ ｉｓ ｑｕｉｔｅ ａ ｌｏｎｇ ｔｉｍｅ！ Ｔｈａｔ ｉｓ ａｎｏｔｈｅｒ ｌｉｆｅｔｉｍｅ （ｃｏｎｃｅｒｎｉｎｇ ｎｅｗ ｔｅｓｔａｍｅｎｔ ｐａｐｒｕｓ）（ｒｅａｄ ｋｅｒｓｅｙ ｇｒａｖｅｓ ｐｌｅｎｔｙ ｏｆ ｑｕｅｓｔｉｏｎｓ ｔｈａｔ ｎｅｅｄ ｔｏ ｂｅ ａｎｓｗｅｒｅｄ，Ｊｏｓｅｐｈ Ｃａｍｐｂｅｌｌ， ｅｌａｉｎｅ ｐaｇｅｌｓ， ｄｅａｄ ｓｅａ ｓｃｒｏｌｌｓ， Ｎａｇ ｈａｍｍａｄｉ ｔｅｘｔｓ， ｈｏｌｙ ｂｌｏｏｄ ｈｏｌｙ ｇｒａｉｌ， ｊｅｓｕｓ ｌｅｔｔｅｒｓ， ａｌｖｉｎ ｋｈｕｈｎ， ｇｅｒａｌｄ ｍａｓｓｅｙ, anthropology, comparative religion ｅｔｃ ｅｔｃ）
Also you must remember to be driven not by what you want REALITY to be but what ACTUALLY happened, and WHO actually did what.. In general this article is ridiculous ａｎｄ Ｉ ｗｏｕｌｄ ｎｅｖｅｒ ｑｕｏｔｅ ｔｈｉｓ ｓｉｔｅ ｏｒ ｗｒｉｔｅｒｓ ａｓ ｖｅｒｉｔａｂｌｅ ｏｒ ａｕｔｈｏｒｉｔａｔｉｖｅｌｙ． Ｐｒｏｏf will always be on the side of REALITY and REALITY generally doesn’t give a shit about what we believe.
ＥＶＥＲＹＴＨＩＮＧ ＨＡＳ ＢＥＥＮ ＤＯＣＴＯＲＥＤ ＦＲＯＭ ＨＩＳＴＯＲＹ． Ｔｈｅｒｅ ｉｓ ｂｙ ｆａｒ ｍｏｒｅ ｃｏｒｒｕｐｔｉｏｎ ｗｉｔｈ ａｎｃｉｅｎｔ ｗｒｉｔｉｎｇｓ ｔｈａｎ ａｕｔｈｅｎｔｉｃ ｐｉｅｃｅｓ ｄｕｅ ｔｏ ｔｈｅ ｃｏｒｒｕｐｔ ｎａｔｕｒｅ ｏｆ ｔｈｅ Ｃａｔｈｏｌｉｃ ｃｈｕｒｃｈ ａｎｄ ｔｈｅ ｔｅｍｐｏｒａｌ ｐｏｗｅｒ ｐｏｌｉｔｉｃｓ ｔｈrough the ｄａｒｋ ａｇｅｓ ａｎｄ ｂｅｙｏｎｄ．
However difficult it is for you to come to terms with your own and collective indoctrination of many generations, it is something that each individual must come to terms with if we are to grow up individually and as a species. Search for REALITY, what ACTUALLY happened and quit following belief. That is my suggestion.
Thanks, this is useful, powerful and well written….
This concerns your article above titled “Did Jesus really exist”None of your claimed proofs above are any good at all.The paragraphs about Jesus in Josephus are easily proved frauds despite what biased apologetics and biased supposed scholars claim.Justin Martyr and Origen both quoted a lot from Josephus but neither mention the Jesus paragraphs.Why?Because they were not yet in Josephus writings,those paragraphs were inserted into Josephus writings no doubt by Eusebius in the mid 300 a.d,’s.Eusebius told on himself he stated of himself (quote)I have added anything favorable to christianity and ommited anything unfavorable(unquote).Eusebius also said (quote)It is o.k.to lie to further christianity (unquote).Origen stated Josephus was not believing in Christ Josephus died a believing Jew to claim he wrote the Jesus paragraphs is purely ignorant.
Tacitus is no proof of a historical Jesus the earliest manuscripts of Tacitus date to the 11th.century or over 1000 years after he supposedly wrote,where is the original manuscript that they copied off of?As far as the word Christus he uses Christus(or anointed one)was used also for other pagan Savior sun gods which were a dime a dozen in the first and second centuries.Another suspious thing is whoever wrote this paragraph calls Pilate a procurator,Pilate was not a procurator he was a prefect,if Tacitus wrote this about 115 A.D.he would have known Pilate was a prefect not a procurator.A procurator in the first century was a financial advisor,a prefect had to do with the military.
Pliny the Younger is zero proof of Jesus because just the mention of christians in the first century means nothing as far as proving Jesus because the christians would be Paul christians.Suetonius writing the word Chrestus has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus Christ it is not a mis-spelling.Chrestus was a common Greek name which only means “GOOD”or good one and was used to even describe slaves that were good slaves.Julius Africanus since there are no surviving works of Thallus could only be repeating christian heresay.The big question is Seneca who lived all the way through Jesus supposed time and who tracked and wrote about sun eclipses and earthquakes knows nothing of an earthquake or sun darkening supposedly at Jesus crucifixtion.
Concerning your claim that the Bible including the N.T.are historical documents is of course a lie,the N.T.nor the Bible as a whole are historical documents they are religious works and are listed in librarys as religious works not under historical documents.If the Bible including the N.T.were brought before a court of law to determine if they are historical documents not even a kangaroo court would claim them historical documents.For just one reason no one, zero knows who wrote one word in the Bible the authors are guessed at and it’s for sure Matthew,Mark,Luke or John never wrote the 4 gospels.The Rylands fragment you mention dating about 125 A.D.does not prove John wrote it ,it just means those few words were included in a gospel claimed to be John’s later on.You didn’t mention the Talmud Jesus as proof of a historical Jesus but neither is it proof of the 4 gospel Jesus,the Talmud Jesus crucified on Passover Eve was actually a Jesus hung on a tree about 100 years before the 4 gospel Jesus ever lived.And yes there is real proof of Julius Caesar,friends and enemies wrote about him,he wrote himself there are artiacs of him.Jesus wrote nothing himself he has no artifacs or coins and no contemporary historian or philosopher knows one thing about a miracle worker,crucified and resurrected from the dead Jesus.Learn to produce facts not biased biblical mind control,biblical brainwashing and blind faith.
Sincerely,without malice,just real truth,
Jay Osborne
Hi Jay,
Thanks so much for your comments and spirited rebuttal. I think the difference between our approaches is that this article relies on historic textual criticism, i.e., what those who examine historical documents use as standards for evidence. So I will address some of your points from that perspective:
1. Josephus — You claim that the portions of Josephus’ writings about Jesus were forged by the Christian scholar Eusebius. However you provide no proof or source of this. Additionally, while some of his writings on Jesus have been questioned as to their authenticity, that is not a reason to reject them offhand. When we are dealing with documents that are from antiquity, they are often questioned and doubted. This is very common. So the totality of evidence normally guides the conclusion on a document. In the case of Josephus, there is no debate or question that his writings about the execution of James, who he calls “the brother of Jesus” are authentic. Similarly when discussing the execution of John the Baptist. So factually, Josephus does indeed write about Jesus Christ with the exact same family detail of the New testament.
2. Tacitus calling Jesus “Chrestus” — This is a very strange objection. Tacitus was obviously talking about Jesus since he discussed his followers. Furthermore, it is a very well known historical fact that Nero blamed the burning of Rome on the Christians and persecuted them. So unless you are suggesting that there was another religion, led by a person named Chrestus, who was not Jesus, that were also persecuted at the same time, I do not see your point. The Annals of Tacitus are considered some of the most reliable historical resources of all time. And he is clearly talking about Christians in his writings. And Christians worship Jesus Christ.
3. Pontius Pilate was a “prefect” not a “procurator”. — Once again, what is your source for this? If you study ancient historical sources, you will find out that the title “prefect” did not exist until 44 AD. Before then, every assigned leader over a foreign region was a procurator. So Tacitus was completely accurate when he called Pilate a procurator because that indeed was his title. This would be akin to calling John D. Rockefeller the “CEO” of Standard Oil. He wasn’t, since that title did not exist back then, even though he had all the powers and responsibility of a modern day CEO.
4. The New Testament is not a historical document — Religious texts, such as the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the epic of Gilgamesh or Sumerian texts are certainly historical documents. This does not mean every event described in them was real or happened but they are invaluable resources for historians today to understand ancient cultures. And certainly the New Testament ancient manuscripts, of which there are thousands more than any other ancient text, are a legitimate resource to ascertain historical information.
5. Caesar — You say there are many ancient writings by Caesar’s friends and enemies . Where are they? Can you name some of these 2,000 year old manuscripts?? As the article stated, the 10 oldest manuscript documents regarding Caesar date to 1,000 years after his death. And they are copies of a text written by Caesar himself. Whereas in the case of Jesus Christ, there are thousands of manuscripts documents dating from a century after his death.
I think when you look at these documents in the manner that historians do (and provide actual sources for your information), it will seem a lot clearer as to why Jesus Christ is by far the most “provable” of all figures of antiquity. And that it can be done based on non-Biblical sources alone. Thanks again for your comments. God bless.
Love it!
Just like your article, it proves nothing as EVERYTHING is hearsay. Not one single entry is of an eye witness.
How do you live believing something you can’t see, hear, touch, which responds to you and full of impossibilities?
I rather live knowing the truth, whether it’s good or bad, than live a life of lies.
When is the last time you saw oxygen?
Dorian, if you want eyewitness accounts, they’re in the Bible. But you won’t believe that historical document simply because it’s called the Bible. But like any document, it was written by real people.
You say you would rather live knowing the truth, and imply Christians live a life of lies. How do you “know” what you believe is “true?” You don’t. You live by faith too my friend. My faith is in Christ. What is your faith in?
Fred, I see oxygen every day it’s just too small for me to tell what it is. Are you saying that god and Jesus are microscopic beings?
Dude, calm down! Ouch, you’re an angry person. Too much Religion in your past I think.
Mike, if you’re talking about “Beginning and End” above, I think you are OVERSTATING things. I detected no anger at all, nor anyone who needs to “calm down!”, as you put it. It was just his manner of reply. He was just putting emphasis on each point he was making, as opposed to just offering a casual reply. There IS such a thing as spirited debate/discussion without the elements of anger or rudeness or unkindness.
You are so right on about the emphasizing points. I DO it all the TIME!!! 🙂
To Jay Osborne: B&E sure told you!
To B&A: Thank you so much for this article. I’ve heard former atheist, that have converted to christianity, say that an atheist’s best weapon is a Christian that does not read his/her Bible and does not know its history. This article is a fantastic resource. God Bless you.
Hi W.I.P.
Thanks for your comment. Praise God that you enjoyed the article. You do not know how many times I have made the same comment about people needing to know more about history and to read the Bible! I agree 100%. It’s great to hear testimony from a former atheist as well. If I may ask, What did you find helped in getting you more willing to put faith in Jesus Christ? Thanks again for your comments. God bless.
Have you guys actually talked to god? I mean, there must be something mother (not 2k old) that you can bring to the table, right? Nothing speaks louder than ACTION. Tell your god to come on down…
To Dorian:
something really bothers me about you Dorian if you so much of a none believer why do you bother yourself on Christianity and God for that matter. i mean i wouldn’t bother myself about scientists and evolution or what they have to say coz i don’t believe in what they say, unless i’m doing what Christ told every Christian to do and that is to go to all the world and spread His gospel, and whose gospel are you spreading….
Well, I would think that it’s pretty obvious, this is a reaction to your action.
You push an idea to the masses that is clearly false, and so the masses will push back.
Your kind indoctrinates children before they can even think for themselves. This is now know as child abuse.
We believe child abuse is BAD.
We are tired of all the obvious misinformation you push and we are not going to stay silent any longer.
It seems to me that you don’t know the meaning of the word gospel, because if you did, you wouldn’t use it to threaten people with hell. Gospel means the good news, and I can’t find a single thing that correlates good news with people going to hell.
I can hear you say, that I have a choice… LOL, that’s not a choice that a threat. Either come with me says JC, or burn in hell. Not even Hitler burned his victims, he used gas and they simply died.
They where not tortured for eternity as you guys promise.
The fact that you can actually fathom such cruelty is a clear indication of your twisted and broken minds.
PERIOD
Dorian – You claim you are for freedom but you want to tell parents how they should raise their kids? What you are standing for is the antithesis of freedom.
Siz, more speaking for myself then him here, but I feel like there is a need to learn more about the religion and study up on it because when you try to talk to a religious person about anything if religion comes up they’re more then likely to try to preach to you, and if you have no idea what they’re talking about beforehand then you could end up just sitting there going “okay I don’t know what they’re even talking about” it’s better to know how both sides think, that way you can consider if you are right or wrong in what you know once you are aware of both sides. I personally say that the bible isn’t viable because it was many loose translations of many papers claiming to be copies of original documents that were translated multiple times over and even had books within it removed, by the time the bible reached its King James Version it is very little like its former originations, and is not longer fit to be the word of god then it is the word of god edited by greedy men. I would say if you wish to truly have an acceptable bible find every one of the original books and study them all, see what the ENtIRE bible says, and not just the parts people thought were more common or would be the best for running a mass of followers.
Hi Leechris,
Once again, I see another great claim with very little evidence:
Where is your evidence to support this assertion?
So are you saying you’ve never heard of the other books of the bible that were left out? You never heard of the meetings of people who looked for similar stories from the worshiper a and put those together as their more accurate scripture, of the story of how king James had the King James Version of the bible created? Are you telling me you don’t even know the basics of the history f the book you claim to know so much about? The information is out there and easy to say, the fact that you havnt is evidence that you either aren’t looking hard enough, or refuse to recognize them.
I just staggered across your web site again and found a couple of supposed refutes to what i wrote you.I do not follow your site your refutes should be sent to my email address.Whoever wrote to me (quote)B.E.sure told you(unquote)just shows he (she) are christian biased and do no real research you just swallow the christian tale hook line and sinker.Now lets look at whoever sent the rebutal to my email,i sign my name none of you do,so i have no idea who sent the supposed rebutal.There was proof in what i sent about Josephus to prove he did not write the Jesus paragraphs forged into his writings.First Justin Martyr about 150 A.D.quoted from Josephus a lot if the Jesus paragraphs had been in Josephus writings in 150 A.D.there is no doubt Justin would have used them in his efforts to convert pagans,it would be pure stupidity to have not used them.
Eusebius(in the mid 300 a.d.’s) is the first early church father to claim those paragraphs were in Josephus writings,it was easy to forge anything in the early writings there was no printing press then so all they had to do was write anything they wanted into old writings.The Jesus paragraphs interupt the story flow in Josephus writings,remove them and the story is smooth and cohernt.So it is easy to see they were later ionterpolations.Whoever wrote the above refute hasn’t studied or researched the James claim either,according to Catholic tradition James the claimed brother of Jesus died 7 years later than the James in Josephus writings.So evidently Eusebius didn’t get his facts straight or this James was another person named James,one or the other lied.Origen stated Josephus was not believing in Jesus long before the Jesus paragraphs were added by Eusebius,Josephus died a believing Jew never,ever would he have writen the claimed Jesus paragraphs,not any part of them.
Now about Tacitus no other historian makes the claim about Nero that Tacitus makes and in part of the Tacitus claim he says that in 64 A.D.there were a vast amount of christians in Rome,of course that is a plain simple lie,there was not even a vast amount of christians in Jerusalem in 64 A.D.let alone a vast amount in Rome.Tacitus writing about 115 A.D.even if he wrote that could only be writing from christian heresay,because he was not contemporary with Jesus supposed time.And all the claimed desciples were dead.It is seriously doubtful that Tacitus even wrote that there are to many distorted facts in it.Which kinda shows it is yet another christian interpolation,fraud,i bet you do not even know that some of your N.T.has later frauds added to it?
1 John 5:7 is not in the earlest 3rd.century manuscripts but it is added to 5th.century manuscripts so you can claim the most ignorant Trinity belief.The verses in Mark 16:9-20 are not in thae earliest manuscripts they were added to 5th.century manuscripts,the woman caught in adultery is not in early manuscripts as well as a host of other scriptures.Who gave someone the authority to add fraud to your N.T.when it says do not add or take away?Do you know the actual rules of how something can be claimed historical?The 4 gospels (actually none of the Bible are historical documents)writers are anonymous writers,no one,ZERO knows who wrote the 4 gospels,for something to be historical you must at least have known authors,and how could the 4 gospels be historical documents when none of the 4 can agree on the happenings surrounding the crucifixtion and resurrection,they disagree on when Jesus was supposedly crucified,Mark says the third hour John says the trial was still going on at the sixth hour,none agree on who came to the tomb first,none agree on what Jesus last words were before he died,none agree on what was writen on the top of the cross,the 4 gospel writers disagree on almost everything surrounding the crucifixtion and resurrection,so what part could a historian claim is historical when they contradict each other?
Do you believe the Koran,Hindu,& Buddah holy books are historical documents also? You also need to do some research on Prefect and Procurator,in fact you need a lot of research on all your claimed refute above.
Sincerely,In Real Truth,
JAY OSBORNE
No and all these sources are irrelevant because all of them were born after the supposed Jesus Christ died.
Please inform me on where you are getting your information Jay Osborne. Yes, I am a faithful Christian and my views are bias. You have no need to know who I am all you need to do is state facts at hand. To be honest my views are bias based on my beliefs just as well as yours are bias based on your belief or non beliefs. My biggest concern is your hostile approach or tone towards those who are merely explaining there beliefs. Now if your beliefs are giving you every right to believe you’ve created yourself and everything began out of thin air then you have a right to believe what you will. However, do not condemn others for believing their beliefs. Now in all essence you are to some extent proving the Bible to be true, it does say there will be those in the last days who will not belief until the day that Jesus returns. So whether you believe or not what will come will come and those who believe will go and those who do not will have to account for their actions. If, you want to play with fire, do so but do not condemn those who believe. Just remember everyone is fulfilling what the Bible says, everyone will have an opportunity and there will be none with an excuse. You have your case and so do we. It’s your choice as well as it was ours and now you are among those without an excuse. Just to give you something to think about. Have you ever considered just what if what’s in the Bible is true are you willing to risk your eternal life on a bias decision without giving them both an honest try then forming your own opinion? Or are you willing to stick with an truly ignorant decision based on just a one sided view and belief of someone else’s thoughts and accusations. Give the other side an honest try first before you completely are sold on a one sided mindset.
If there is no truth in the Scripture or Christianity Why do we have so many people, atheism and agnostics even converting over even after their years of arguing against it and years of research trying to prove it to be wrong. Which ironically is the same thing that happened to Saul who later became Paul. It’s just strange that those who are still arguing the facts are so convinced that they are someone genetically so much smarter than those who once believed the same and did the same who no longer agree.
People making choices based on various emotional or circumstantial influences isn’t an argument about finding truth in scripture or christianity. You need a serious lesson in critical thinking skills to catch your fallacious question. Also, you make an empty assertion about religious conversion based on non existent studies. Using the example of Saul becoming Paul, is just a typical example of indoctrination, which is no more different than taking an average German and turning them into a Nazi. Yes, religion is just another ideology that people adopt strictly out of emotional thinking and not rational thinking. Too bad religion doesn’t promote skepticism, because we’d have a lot less SUCKERS in our midst. We need more Sauls than Pauls.
Smile. Hauling out all the old stalwarts. 😉
Just a note on Josephus.
The general consensus of biblical scholars believe the TF was tampered with. The lines you have highlighted in bold face are generally agreed to be a later Christian Interpolation.
However, there is by no means blanket agreement.
I believe one commenter mentioned that Eusebius may have been the forger?
There is reason to suspect this., and some scholars believe it too.
Certainly the TF was not known of before Eusebius and there is evidence he is was a bit of a rascal when it came to forgery and a few spurious remarks. The correspondance (letters) between Jesus and King Agbar is a classic example.
It is worth bearing things like this in mind before stating it’s set in stone that the TF from Josephus is ‘proof’ of Jesus.
HI Arkenaten,
Thanks for your comments. When it comes to textual criticism, I do agree that it is done by consensus. And the “general consensus” is NOT that that TF was tampered with. While there is much debate, it is important to know the reason why, the skeptics think that parts of it were forged. And the reason is that they believe it is “too Christian” in certain parts. However upon examination of the most popular supporting reasons for why the skeptics think the TF is a forgery, they are not that strong. The assumption that if Josephus referred to Jesus as “Messiah” then he was a Christian, is full of logical flaws. Josephus was writing as a historian. As such, he would consult a Christian text that of course would proclaim Christ the Messiah. That does not necessarily mean that Josephus agreed with that belief. For more information on this, I would recommend the Josephus.org website. They do substantive, qualitative analysis of the Luke text vs the TF to
Also remember that even if the TF was a forgery, that still has no bearing on the portions of Josephus’ writings where he writes of the Apostle James, “the brother of Jesus” and John the Baptist, the cousin of Jesus. So independent of the TF, Josephus still confirms the existence of Jesus, in texts whose authenticity are not questioned.
I read the article, read the comments, did my research and a former Christian myself, I’m still not convinced. You guys can says anything you want, show any sources you want. While a Jesus may have existed and may have done good things for people, prayed and got crucified, I don’t believe he performed miracles, was resurrected, is the son of god or will return. It will take a ‘miracle’ for me to believe again and if Jesus does come it might be late but that to me is far fetched. At the end of the day a lot of this information was written by man, deception didn’t start yesterday and the opinion I have come to is that, as I said before, Jesus may have existed and did wonderful things, he might have just been the foundation for the start of Christianity and along the years the story evolved to what we know today, conveniently enough the city that may have had any evidence of Jesus was burn, witnesses killed and such which only leaves us to believe primiraly on what man wrote and created which could have been to fool us into religion maybe even for control. Government and religion have a connection deeper than some know and I think that’s where the truth lies which we’ll probably never truly know. Don’t forget that the government controls pretty much everything no matter how unlikely people think that is and religions also have a powerful control upon the world. The reason why I researched the existence of Jesus is purely curiosity, I knew I would not find anything concrete, what I did find was that there may have been a man named Jesus but whether he is the son of god remains to be proven to me, his miracles and resurrection as well. Being crucified quite honestly is nothing surprising to me, with the kind of craziness that people did in that time until this present day, I believe it was possible a man named Jesus could have been crucified, that alone doesn’t prove nothing to me. All this to me seems like a ‘his word against mine’ kind of thing. Seeing is believing and that’s what it may take for me to believe and again it may be too late come judgment day
Hi Lito,
Thanks for your comments. I will just submit the same question to you – on what substantive basis, do you say Jesus “may” have existed? What research did you examine that refutes these secular historical sources? I will also ask – do you think the evidence supporting the existence of Julius Caesar as better than that for Jesus?
Ultimately, believing Jesus is the Son of God and Messiah, who was indeed crucified and risen on the 3rd day, takes faith. The Bible says, without faith it is impossible to please God. Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to 500 people. His disciples all gave their lives just to proclaim this to the world. But being saved and forgiven of God is not an intellectual exercise – it is a matter of the heart. It takes very little research to know that all people have sinned and violated God’s laws. And we know that we have done this. We know we are all guilty before a perfect, just and Holy God who created matter, this entire universe and all people. That knowledge, our conscience is evidence of God’s influence in our lives. We have souls. We have love, which is intangible and absolutely unable to be scientifically proven. And God wants to bring us back into is His loving arms but we have to be willing to open our hearts, humble ourselves and listen to Him.
Jesus Christ said: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40). I am sure I don’t have to convince you that we are all going to die. You need to consider the soul inside of you that “may” exist and what its fate will be. I hope and pray you give more thought to God before making a decision with eternal consequences.
Hey B&E,
Wen I say Jesus may have existed I only mean of him as a simple man like you and me who may have done great things for his people and those who followed him. The thought of him resurrecting and sitting next to s father until his return is what I find hard to believe. The sources I have research are many different sites like yours, sorry I didn’t keep tract of this sites, but like yours, though the evidence may make a believer out of someone it it will not work for me as what you show and what other websites have shown could all be deceit. I’ll ask you this, is it not possible that all the info, evidence and knowledge you have on this matter be based on a lie started after the death of Jesus? Thanks for your reply.
Hi Lito,
Well since you are not presenting the research and evidence that refutes the existence of Jesus, it’s hard to debate this topic. But based on the evidence listed in the article, there is no reason to say “Jesus may have existed.” From a secular historical standpoint, Jesus did indeed exist. But again, if you have something to the contrary that you have read, please feel free to share it.
As for the evidence being a lie, of course it’s possible. But it is not probably. Why would these different writers, who were not Christians, and in some case mocked Christians and persecuted Christians, just make up the idea of Christianity or the person of Jesus Christ? It just doesn’t seem to make sense. Instead it seems much more logical that these secular writers were writing the truth – that a religion called Christianity did exist and it was centered on the real person of Jesus Christ. None of this is any admission that they were believers in any way, shape or form. But it does provide proof that Jesus existed.
I am sorry. I should have stated clearly. Every eminent non-chrisitian biblical scholar generally agrees that the TF was tampered with. Some believe it was done over an extended period, others believe it was done from the outset.
Only the majority of Christian scholars prefer to believe there was no interpolation.
If one considers Josephus’ record he is hardly likely to have accreditied Jesus as being anything other than a man. If he did believe he was the Messiah he would have become Çhristian’. Something he most certainly did not do.
All this to me seems like a ‘his word against mine’ kind of thing.””
I prefer to look at the evidence as it stands and use common sense in such matters without letting doctrine or faith cloud my judgment. Then go to the experts in their respective fields.
As a Christian it “must be wonderful for you to find such an affirmation of Jesus.
I step back and first look at the reputation of Josephus and back further, the reputation of Eusebius.
A man who had Arian sympathies and was eventually excommunicated for being unstable.
No one in their right mind would accept the letters he produced. Yes this is so often conveniently overlooked when it comes to affirming the veracity of the TF.
The reference to James then becomes just as clouded.
Even if I were a devout Christian I would hesitate siding with opinion that vouchsafed such implausible writing from one such as Josephus.
Accepting It might make you feel good, but in fact, it should give one a sense of unease.
Each to his, I suppose. Everyone is entitled to his own truth but not his own facts.
I helps one to maintain balance in such matters.
No apology necessary. But unfortunately, you are not providing any substantive evidence to support what you are saying. Where does it say that “every eminent non-Christian Biblical scholar” says the TF was tampered with? What is the reasoning for this tapering? What are the countervailing theories? It seems at this point that you are speaking more in generalities than an actual examination of the text.
Josephus.org analyzes the ancient texts qualitatively and quantitatively. It also explores the most popular conspiracy theories regarding Eusebius. I just don’t see how we can have a substantive discussion without you providing some specific, textual reason for believing the TF was tampered with.
Futhermore, Josephus wrote as a historian, not a theologian. If a Historian researching Islam writes “Muhammed is the Prophet and Allah is God.” that does not mean the person actually believes this to be so. They are writing what that particular theology espouses. Josephus was not a believer in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and this article never attempts to say this.
Finally, you seem to have overlooked that outside of the TF, Josephus wrote of James as “the brother of Jesus” and John the Baptist as His cousin. So those are independent confirmations of the existence of Jesus. Taken with the totality of the other historians who wrote of Jesus Christ there is no reason to doubt His existence at all.
“….who wrote of Jesus Christ there is no reason to doubt His existence at all.”
I do not recall saying that I did doubt the existence of Jesus.
To cite every source would be exhaustiving and as a Christian you might still fall back on the scholars that provide you with the answer you prefer.
Wiki is always a good start. There are plenty of links you could follow.
I have read the passage on the link you listed on quite a few occasions, It suffers from heavy Christian bias I am afraid.
The sentence below is an example….
“On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvels about him.”?
The sentence above is a dead give away? Irrespective of any oher considerations If Joseph truly wrote this it would be a tacit acknowledgement that he believed Jesus was the Messiah. A preposterous idea by any standards.
The man was a Jew. He might have been viewed as a turncoat by his people but he never abandened his faith. Surely you cannot possibly accept this line as genuine?
Sorry , I overlooked the bit about ”Çousin’ .
I was unaware of this. I would be very obliged if you could point me to the place in Josephus where this usage is mentioned.
Thanks.
Again, Josephus is writing about Christianity on the basis of the Christian perspective from a Christian document. Again, you are not actually looking to why the skeptics are saying who claim the TF is a forgery. They are making the claim without understanding the source material that Josephus used which was a Christian document in circulation in 90AD. You are not providing any actual substantive criticism from an expert or any textual analysis. So while to you, the quote of Josuphus about Jesus might seem like a “dead give away” from those who actually examine and study historical texts it makes sense in the context that Josephus was writing as a historian and not a rabbi or theologian. If you have something in the form of substantive textual analysis or experts to cite than this will be a much more fruitful discussion.
Try this link.
http://historical-jesus.info/appe.html
A truly outstanding look at Josephus. One of the best I have read so far.
What does TF mean?
Hi Nathan,
Thanks for your question. TF stands for Testimonium Flavium which is just a fancy name for the largest portion of Flavius Josephus’ writings that gives details about Jesus Christ. As you can see from the discussion, there has been scholarly debate about whether Jospehus actually wrote that portion or if it was added to his writings by a Christian at a later date. And what I am trying to show is that the most recent research and analysis shows that the theory that a Christian altered his writings does not hold up to be true. Thanks again for your question and if there is anything else you would like to ask, please feel free to. God bless.
all what i no is that there is God and jesus christ exist.
We appear to be talking at cross purposes here and I am getting a little confused.
So, let me try to get this straight. You are saying that Josephus is NOT asserting his own opinion, but rather quoting from a Christian source document? A primary source document or a copy.
If this is the case then it flies in the face of what you were saying about him being a historian.
As an historian he should/ would have made mention of this. Which he does not.
And the likliehood that he would trust a Christian document without verifying sources is a very valid reason to suspect the TF.
But if you have evidence ….then I am more than interested.
They are making the claim without understanding the source material that Josephus used which was a Christian document in circulation in 90AD.””
You have evidence ? Can you point to this document please.
The Testimonium has been the subject of a great deal of research and debate among scholars, being one of the most discussed passages among all antiquities.[95] Louis Feldman has stated that in the period from 1937 to 1980 at least 87 articles had appeared on the topic, the overwhelming majority of which questioned the total or partial authenticity of the Testimonium.[96] While early scholars considered the Testimonium to be a total forgery, the majority of modern scholars consider it partially authentic, despite some clear Christian interpolations in the text.[97][98]””
This is a quick look at Wiki. Yes I have read several other scholars but for the sake of brevity Wki is alway a good start, as I m entioned before.
And I would be very interested who are the experts you are citing with this assertion about the 90 AD document you refer to.
Oh, and you forgot to mention where in Josephus the Cousin reference is.
With all due respect, are you really expecting a bibliography from a first century historian? How could Josephus find out anything about Christianity? It would be from either reading an early Christian tract, speaking to a Christian or someone familiar with Christianity. Is there really any other way for a historian to obtain information in 90 AD?
And again, he is not stating his belief in Christianity. He is describing the faith. So there is no reason for him to be “suspicious” of a Christian document. Not to mention this is all pure speculation on your part with no substantive basis, with all due respect.
What is good is that you have cited a researcher who has looked into this issue. Louis Feldman is indeed a very legitimate researcher into the writings of Josephus. And let’s get to his main conclusion: “The most probable view seems to be that our text represents substantially what Josephus wrote, but that some alterations have been made by a Christian interpolator.” Those are his words from his book. But his work dates back to the 1960s (and thus all the scholars he cites did their work at even earlier date), with an updated version in 1984. Since then, not only have there have been great strides in textual analysis, we have the benefit of computers which can help in comparing texts and linguistic analysis. So frankly, Feldman’s work is outdated. For example, he wrote his first book 10 years before Karl Rengstorf’s concordance of the TF, which allowed scholars to examine the writings exhaustively, and is one of the most significant contributions to the understanding and translation of Josephus’ writings.
I have already provided the evidence but I will do so again.
Here is an article on the Emmaus narrative of Luke which Dr. J.D. Goldberhg demonstrates was the basis for the the accounts of Jesus in the TF. His essay was originally published in the Journal of Pseudopigripha in 1995. It does an actual analysis of the Koine Greek from both texts (again, which through computers makes the comparison a lot more compelling and easier to understand – this is something Feldman never did or considered).
Here is Dr. Goldberg’s essay. (You will notice that it cites Feldman extensively).
So in short, Feldman’s work is outdtated. Ancient texts are now uploaded onto databases for computer analysis where word comparisons in latin and greek can be done in ways Feldman never imagined. And thus he never made the connection between the TF and other writings that provide proof of a similar source and the reason for the seemingly “pro-Christian” language in that one paragraph in the TF.
Oh and regarding the “cousin” thing, I misspoke. What I meant is that the account of John the Baptist, who is the cousin of Jesus, in Antiquities, matches the Gospel narrative exactly. So while Josephus does not call him cousin, he details his life in exact parallel with the New Testament which further confirms the accuracy of the Holy Scripture we have today.
Okay, I get it. You are not saying there IS a document you are assuming there WAS one (based on absolutely no evidence, of course or are we still suggesting Luke – and so Josephus is merely repeating information received from a Christian, either through direct speech or via some unspecified document.
And because of this, you believe this is enough that a historian like Josephus can be trusted when he repeats this tale about Jesus being more than a man and that he appeared to them after three days…rose from the dead, in other words.
Goldberg’s analysis looks very interesting. May I ask, has it been peer reviewed?
It s , of course, only a theory. Even in closing he uses the words ‘speculate’ and ‘guess’ and thanks Goldman for his encouragement.
Again I ask, so what?
This was writen in ’95 and I haven’t seen a single scholarly mention of it until I arrived on your blog.
Now I am not saying it hasn’t been around but I am guessing it is not the consensus.
I certainly don’t recall any breaking news headlines on the scale of the Ossuary scandals, or the ridiculous claim of that Chinese(?) team finding Noah’s Ark,or that silly nonsense by the IAA about
Nazareth. Sometime I wonder to what lengths some folk will go….
Before long we will be considering Ron Wyatt’s scandalous claims about Charriot Wheels on the Red Sea otryhe Creation Museum.
Let’s get a grip. Supposition is not evidence and evidence is not proof.
Now, let’s jut say it was all true. Could be, right? I mean, who am I to say it’s all make believe, right?
The only thing it might suggest is that Josephus had gone soft in the head, completely out of character andhad written a nice little passage about Jesus that was told to him by a Christian, maybe Cleopas. He wrote it down as was told to him and eh voila, The TF.
It proves nothing……unless of course you want it too, right?
Now, imagine you are a 8th century historian and a Muslim told you that he had been below the cave while the Angel Gabriel appeared to Mohammed and although he didn;t see anyhing he overheard Mohammed and Gabrial talking!
Would,you believe this without question?
Would you consider this proof that Gabrial existed, and that Mohammed was telling the truth?
Please say yes!!
BTW
I don’t recall John the Baptist being part of this discussion. And all it confirmes is that there is a non biblical reference. Nothing else at all.
Tiberius is mentioned in the bible and there are plenty of non-biblical references to him.
Is there a point?
He does a statistical linguistic analysis that came up at >95% matching the the TF to the Emmaus narrative. That is a very nice try to dismiss Goldberg’s work, but without any substantive refutation or challenge to the actual analysis he made, you’re basically just name-calling. In a very thorough fashion he pointed out the origin of the TF in ways that Feldman never even considered, much less had the means of confirming or observing. So I am going to stand by Goldberg’s analysis. You have not provided one reason at all as to where he made errors in interpretation or application (or any textual arguments about any of this for that matter).
And with all due respect, just because you have not had heard about an academic paper, does not mean it’s insignificant. LOL. Papers are submitted to academic journals for peer review BTW.
As for the rest of your comments about Josephus – it’s pure speculation that has no support. There is no reason to engage in hypotheticals when we can do practical examination of the text versus other texts.
And my point about Johgn the Baptist is that Josephus’ description of the events in his life match the New Testament verbatim. So it is another secular confirmation (from 90 AD) of the accuracy of the Bible we have today.
Once again, the existence of Jesus Christ has more support that and evidence than any other figure in antiquity. But more importantly, through faith in Jesus Christ, you can be forgiven for your sins. Or do you need proof that by Biblical standards you are a sinner who stands condemned before God??
If Goldberg’s work is truly an accurate representation then it would have been taken and up and verified by mainstream biblical academia. Religious and non religious alike.
If it has, then I apologise. But I reiterate, I have not managed to turn up anything in this regard. If you can direct me to anywhere his proposal has gained widespread acceptance then I am willing to reconsider.
Otherwise, it is merely another theory’. Not a bad one as theories go, but no more concrete than others currently on the ‘market’.
Naturally, when trying to find a solution to such problems one that calls to one’s heart will likely have the most appeal.
While the non christian academic consensus stands that the TF is an interpolation -at least in part – then I’ll go with the flow, thank you.
As an historical figure from this period the person known as Jesus is certainly fairly well evidenced, compared to other similar figures.
That Christians attempt to tie this person in with the one described between the covers of the bible is silly.
This is faith, it is not truth. And while everyone is entitled to believe in whatever version of truth they want , they cannot have their own version of facts.
Once again, an article is published in an academic journal, after it has been peer-reviewed.That is the purpose of academic journals. You seem to be looking for big headlines or things of that nature, but with all due respect, there are thousands of theological articles that have been reviewed on ancient texts that you probably have not heard of, and they have been peer reviewed. So maybe Goldberg, does not meet your own personal standards, but he clearly satisfied his peers, which is why he was published.
You still have not offered one substantive refutation to anything Goldberg wrote in his essay. You have not challenged one interpretation, any of his analysis or his knowledge of Koine greek or Latin. So at this point, this discussion is not that compelling.
If you want to write off Goldberg’s work because it does not have as much media coverage and hype as say “the Gospel of Jesus Wife” hoax, that is your prerogative, but it is not an argument against the validity of what he wrote in any way. Similarly with relying on much older work that Goldberg has shown to not be complete on this topic.
And as I said before, faith is integral to being a Christian. Being a believer is not an intellectual exercise. It is a recognition of your fallen state as a sinner in violation of God’s laws. So again, I ask, do you believe that by Biblical standards, you are a sinner who stands condemned before God?
The inclusion of Tacitus re: claims of Jesus’existence has always fascinated me.
I have often wondered about his source material?
Have you any thoughts on this?
I am not qualified to offer an academical refutal of Goldberg’s theory.
I am merely asserting that it is an interesting theory but currently, based on general academic principles has not been accepted by consensus.
There is no point suggesting I expect such a paper to make headline news as did the ridiculous stories about the ‘bone boxes’
When called to provide historical evidence for the character of Jesus academia bows to consensus.
Nor am I saying Goldberg is wrong – rather you are insisting he he probably right merely because I have not provided a qualified rebuttal.
Maybe you are qualified to make a proffesional assessment and able to read Koine. If so , then you are streaks ahead of most students of theology and ancient texts. If not…..well?
“And as I said before, faith is integral to being a Christian. Being a believer is not an intellectual exercise. It is a recognition of your fallen state as a sinner in violation of God’s laws. So again, I ask, do you believe that by Biblical standards, you are a sinner who stands condemned before God?”
And you were doing so well until this little piece of polemic nonsense. You try to sway your argument with reasonable data then insert this codswallop which compromises everything and immediately highlights your evangelical bias.
For the record. The notion of sin and being a sinner is solely a theological concept. I have no truck with such claptrap. It is the type of inculcation that poisons people’s minds and in the case of children should be classified as abuse.
Oh, and BTW, anyone who continually uses the phrase…”with due respect” as you do with so many of your responses, has no respect for those making comments,and is merely treating others with contempt.
Thanks for admitting the relevant point here. And that you are disagreeing simply because older research that didn’t have access to computer technology or contemplate textual comparisons from the same era, states a different conclusion.
And if you are talking about the bigger issue of Jesus’ existence, no scholar would look at just Josephus. They would look at the variety of sources that confirm the existence of Jesus. And again, without question, He is the most “provable” figure of antiquity by far.
And I use the term “with all due respect” in the most genuine way. Where have I shown you any contempt? If I have, please point me to it.
And I bring up your sin because 1) – the discussion on the TF is basically done and 2) I am now moving on to a different topic. I know sin is a concept in the Bible which is why I said “By biblical standards..”
But if you’d rather just look it as morality, which is universal (and really the same thing) that’s cool with me. So I will simplify it: what is the basis of your morality?
“And that you are disagreeing simply because older research that didn’t have access to computer technology states a different conclusion.”
Ah, semantics….make you feel better, does it?
So what you are saying is Goldberg’s theory is provable/true/valid because now we have computers? And this is the scholarly consensus is it? Or is it confined to Dr Goldberg and his evangelical Christian fan base?
RFLMAO.
Well, if you like, so be it 🙂
“And again, without question, He is the most “provable” figure of antiquity by far.”
I am SO glad you put speech marks around provable. Good for you.
Maybe we should look at Noah next?
Oh, and I would never discuss morality with a Christian. Most have such a warped idea of what morality is they are incapable of understanding and any discussion would be pointless.
But if it gives you a sense of superiority then you go ahead and bang that drum, “Hallelujah, save me Jeezus”
Goldberg’s essay is not true because of technology. He just very clearly identified the source material. Feldman never did or even contemplated. He basically demonstrated that the prevailing theory on the TF was wrong and outdated.
And the article makes it clear: there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than any figure in antiquity. if you can name someone else who surpasses Jesus Christ, please do.
I ask about morality because it is central to who we all are, Christian or not. But if you do not want to discuss morality, it’s all good.
“He just very clearly identified the source material”
Wrong. He postulated the source material.
I have not seen or read any coun ter arguments or arguments for either. So, I ask once again, please direct me to any peer review of this thesis and i will be happy to reconsider my take. NO problem.
I did not disagree. There is more evidence. But most of it is circumstantial. But I have never said I did not believe in an historical Jesus, just the biblical version.
“But if you do not want to discuss morality, it’s all good.”
Sorry, you missunderstand. I have no objections discussing morality. I stated I will not discuss morality with a Christian as their notion of this is warped because of their religious inculcation.
A simple example – you accept the biblical tale of Joshua’s conquest of Canaan as ‘right’ or ‘moral’ even if viewed in context- commanded by your god.
To me, it is merely genocide (if it were factual of course)
There is no basis on which to discuss morality that would reveal a consensus..
I did a fairly extensive internet search for Dr Goldberg (I have read his theisis by the way) and could find nothing to openly support it.
Although,these two links were enlightening in their own ways.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html
http://rogerviklund.wordpress.com/category/gary-j-goldberg/
I believe in a historical Jesus. His original name is Yeshua Meshikha. I am a Preterist who believes that Yeshua Meshikha came back in 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.
I also believe New Testament was written in Aramaic. Not in Greek. I believe Aramaic original is called Peshitta (used by Church of the East in Middle East and also in India).
Yeshua Meshikha prophesized the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Yeshua Meshikha also said this in Matthew 16:27-28 “For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father, with all his holy angels; and then will he recompense to every man as his deeds are. Verily I say to you: There are some persons standing here, who shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”
So Yeshua Meshikha said there are some persons standing here who shall not taste death unti they see Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Did he come? Yes. All tribes in Jerusalem saw the sign of Son of Man right before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. This was recorded by Josephus in Jewish Wars and Tacitus in his Histories. This was also later recorded by Historian Eusebius.
Jewish Wars (6:296-299) – “Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the twenty-first day of the month Artemisius [Iyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.”
Tacitus, Histories, Book 5
“Prodigies had occurred, which this nation, prone to superstition, but hating all religious rites, did not deem it lawful to expiate by offering and sacrifice. There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, the fiery gleam of arms, the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the Gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir as of departure. Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire.”
This was also recorded by Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 8, Sections 1-6. I am not writing this, because the post will be too long.
This vision of the chariots and soldiers in the sky happened right before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
You may ask what does chariots and the soldiers in the sky have to do with the sign of son of Man and Bible. Here are some examples.
Jeremiah 4:13 (KJV) – “Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.”
Isaiah 66:15 (KJV) – “For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.”
2 Kings 2:11 (KJV) – And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
2 Kings 6:17 (KJV) – And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Zachariah 6:1-6 (KJV) – “And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass. In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses. Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord? And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.”
The chariots of God are also mentioned in Psalms 68:17, Habakkuk 3:8, and chariot-like vehicles are also mentioned Ezekiel 1 and Ezekiel 10.
In my opinion, I think the biggest mistake is expecting Yeshua Meshikha to come in his physical form. It is not the physical form that counts. It is the spirit that counts. In John 8:58, we learn that Yeshua Meshikha existed before Abraham existed.
So Yeshua Meshikha existed spiritually. We know that God is a spirit through John 4:24. Through John 8:58, his son is also a spirit. In order to become a human being, He needed the help of a woman. That’s why Virgin Mary was chosen.
Yeshua Meshikha came back spiritually with his angels and chariots in 70 AD.
But you may ask – “what about the end of the world?” I think the word “The world” can misguide you. In KJV, you see the end of the world. In NIV, you see the end of the Age.
The meaning of a word can change according to context.
The word “The world” can also mean Age. For Example, let me take Renaissance. We can call it Renaissance World or Age of Renaissance. In this context, the world means “Age.” Yeshua Meshikha was talking about the end of the Age.
Revelation 1:3 (NIV) – “Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.”
We read that the time is near.
Revelation 1:7 (NIV) – “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.
We read that every eye will see him even those those who pierced him. So it was supposed to happen in first century.
Take a notice “He is coming with the clouds” in Revelation 1:7 and read Jeremiah 4:13 (Mentioned above).
I also believe that Revelation was written in Aramaic. The best available manuscript of Revelation is a 12th century Aramaic manuscript called Crawford Codex. I believe Crawford Codex was copied from the original Aramaic manuscript which was written in Dead Sea Scrolls Script. After a while, the manuscripts get old and they get destroyed. So the writers copies the information in the old manuscript to a new manuscript.
Here is the information about Crawford Codex manuscript if anyone is interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_Codex
If anyone is interested in reading about Aramaic original of New Testament, check this link.
http://ellhn.e-e-e.gr/books/assets/NewTestament.pdf
“Sepher Yosippon” is an old historical Jewish document written in Hebrew about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and what happened to Jewish community during that time. Sefer Josippon also mentions about the vision of the soldiers in the sky which we read in Josephus’ Jewish Wars, Tacitus’s Histories, and Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History.
Sepher Yosippon (A Medieval History of Ancient Israel) translated from the Hebrew by Steven B. Bowman. Excerpts from Chapter 87 “Burning of the Temple”
“Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire. When the holiday of Shavu’oth came in those days, during the night the priests heard within the Temple something like the sound of men going and the sound of men marching in a multitude going into the Temple, and a terrible and mighty voice was heard speaking: “Let’s go and leave this House.”
I find when non-believers ask for proof, even when you give them evidence (as you did) they still deny it. Like people have said, atheists that convert to christianity are the ones that have studied it and failed to find any proof that he didn’t exist. I just don’t see why people are so unwilling to accept Jesus as Christ.
This is amazing, and finally I have a good reply to when people ask me for proof 🙂
If only everyone would just accept the love of Jesus.
Thanks mate 🙂
Jeremiah 10:3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. 5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.” 6 No one is like you, O LORD; you are great, and your name is mighty in power.
Isaiah 44: 9 All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame. 10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol, which can profit nothing? 11 People who do that will be put to shame; such craftsmen are only human beings. Let them all come together and take their stand; they will be brought down to terror and shame. 12 The blacksmith takes a tool and works with it in the coals; he shapes an idol with hammers, he forges it with the might of his arm. He gets hungry and loses his strength; he drinks no water and grows faint. 13 The carpenter measures with a line and makes an outline with a marker; he roughs it out with chisels and marks it with compasses. He shapes it in human form, human form in all its glory, that it may dwell in a shrine. 14 He cut down cedars, or perhaps took a cypress or oak. He let it grow among the trees of the forest, or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow. 15 It is man’s fuel for burning; some of it he takes and warms himself, he kindles a fire and bakes bread. But he also fashions a god and worships it; he makes an idol and bows down to it. 16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, “Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.” 17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, “Save me; you are my god.” 18 They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand. 19 No one stops to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, “Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and I ate. Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? Shall I bow down to a block of wood?”
Psalm 115 2 Why do the nations say, “Where is their God?” 3 Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him. 4 But their idols are silver and gold, made by human hands. 5 They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but cannot see. 6 They have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but cannot smell. 7 They have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but cannot walk, no can they utter a sound with their throats. 8 Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.
Psalm 135:15 The idols of the Nations are silver and gold, made by human hands. 16 They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but cannot see. 17 They have ears, but cannot hear, nor is there breath in their mouths. 18 Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them.
Amen.
john 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
I have yet to see the blind cured with mud water turned into wine the dead raised just by telling them to rise. lame walk without science. Demons cast out among many other claims. According to the bible you should be doing these works and even greater works than these.
john 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
I have yet to see the blind cured with mud water turned into wine the dead raised just by telling them to rise. lame walk without science. Mountains and trees throw themselves into the ocean. Demons cast out among many other claims. According to the bible you should be doing these works and even greater works than these.
arkenaten,
I am not sure what proof you are looking for that Jesus existed when you provide no evidence that he did not?
Do aliens exist.. Seems a lot of people believe they do… governments are pouring billions of dollars into this area? Where is the evidence? Has anyone seen one? If they say they have do you believe them? Or do you need to poke your finger in their arses to believe it?
What about evolution? I don’t see fish walking out of the sea and miraculously turning into apes then human beings? Where is the evolution people talk about today? Where are the evolving species? Prove it? And please don’t say science. I am a sceptic.. I need to see feel and touch. Just like you do when it comes to Our Lord.
What about the holocaust? How many people were killed we are told? Do you have list of names? More so, even if you do you have living witness that can testify for each and every one of them? Where is the evidence? Prove it?
Hey how about this, If I wrote Gospel of Superman 50 years after he was invented? Do you think I could pull it off and make people believe he was real? What do you think? Create a super hero and see how you go.
I can go on and on..
There is sufficient historical proof that Jesus existed there is no evidence that he did not? Why didn’t any writings of the first century write about this fantasy person to warn people? Or, were there no intelgent people then to say he was a myth?
And by the way, if he did not exist what it is to sceptic like you, why should you or anyone care. What’s it to you that I or anybody else should believe in him? What’s you point or what is the agenda here?
I believe in Jesus not only that he existed but that he was born of a virgin birth, suffered, was crucified and died. And on the third day he rose again.
Why, because the evidence is overwhelming? And evidence is all your ever going to get no different than aliens, the holocaust, Julies Caesar, evolution etc, ect,ect….. What evidence you say? You’re an intelligent person look for it yourself. Maybe look at the life of the first century Christians… what they believed and what they died for. Would you die to maintain your belief in Superman?
That’s how it works in the real world with anything we believe, no different to the court system. You sum up the evidence then come to a conclusion.
Well this is the best post I’ve seen here, I am nothing but I tend to believe in God and Jesus, because there couldn’t be such a great lie about all this to foul so many people, and further more, the bible only tells you to do good things. But be ware brahs, the bible is absolule, half-.ssd jobs won’t make any difference between u and a complete sinner 😉 As for the religion, I believe the Jehova’s Witnesses are the best and closest to do as the bible says
Well, hum, let me see…. Ah yeah, how about eye witnesses? That might help JUST A LITTLE BIT.
We can’t prove aliens exist, and no one has ever said they do! Where do you even come up with that.
We can certainly extrapolate based on facts, that there is a certain chance (whatever that might be, I don’t know what the calculation is) of them bering real. After all WE ARE IN SPACE, therefore we ARE Aliens!
The same goes with your fish, we have all the evidence we need to know where we come from. Look it up. If you are actually doubting science, I dare you to stop going to the hospital, stop using computer, and stop using anything that comes from science. Skeptical? No you are delusional. Why don’t you go to a lab and see it for yourself? You wouldn’t know what you were looking at anyway, because you don’t have the EDUCATION!
I recommend that you don’t say that to a jew, you might get shot. Have you seen the pictures? The movies? Have you talked to the people that were ACTUALLY THERE??
Superman? Say what? The difference, is that back then people didn’t have anyway of communicating but thru talking, therefore anything anyone said took hold. Today, if you talk about superman, and you don’t have it on video or any sort of real evidence, no one would believe you. Additionally, the story of jesus took hold simply by the fact that they recycled pagan stories so that it was already familiar to all. Why do you think his birthday is celebrated on dec. 25th? That is a pagan birthday of pagan gods based on the solstice equinox. The actual birth of this christ, is NOT EVEN listed on the very book that says that he was here!
It wasn’t long ago that you could be killed for not believe in this christ. So, yes, there was a very good reason why people didn’t fight.
BUT WE ARE FREE TO FIGHT LIES NOW.
My agenda, is that we want to prevent even the thought of teaching this garbage in schools. We want to keep the state separate from the church, and the more the truth is out, the easier it will be.
Your thought process is corrupt. You make no sense at all.
The fact that there are no eye witnesses, which means that you DO NOT have any EVIDENCE, the fact that the story is incredibly similar to so many pagan god stories, with their miracles, rebirth, worshiping, etc. etc. etc. and the fact that he hasn’t appeared for 2 THOUSAND years, makes it pretty clear that it’s all fairy-tales.
On top of that, Christians, Jews, Muslims and all other religious people, have absolutely ZERO advantage in life in anything and everything.
Your only unprovable and useless notch is the thought that you will have a heaven after life. But that goes for ALL RELIGIONS.
The thought that there is a heaven and hell, is for scared people with biased and gullible minds.
There is no way in hell, that hell is real.
We don’t have to prove anything, it is you that is making the statement of existence.
[Censored for personal attacks]
Period!
and I must add, you mention that why did christianity take off if it wasn’t real. Well according to your theory, then every other popular religion is real. That means that Allah, is real. Which his NOT.
Therefore your point is FLAWED!
All your points are FLAWED and would never stand the scrutiny of a laboratory. Not in a million years!
Sorry, I just have to add this.
You say you are an skeptic, yet have you seen Christ? Have you touched him? NO
Then by your very own definition, YOU ARE WRONG! YOU ARE FOOLING YOURSELF. PERIOD.
Hi Dorian
Jesus constantly reveals himself in visions to people all over the world and some have even heard his audible voice. But mostly, he reveals himself in the way he interacts in our lives and changes us and wipes the slates clean where we mess up – if we invite him to that is. But you would probably just tell these people to their face they are liars and all manner of other insults you have used in your posts. Clearly this debate will rage until this earth passes away but I want to just say two things in response to a previous comment/ question you fired: “Where is your god(s) – send him/them to down to us!”
What are you expecting -some kind of Jack-in-the-box to jump in front of your face waving his hand madly saying Here I am, here I am!
1st answer: He did come down – in the person of Jesus Christ. (to which you are no doubt swearing and rolling your eyes)
2nd answer: If God were to reveal himself in some way to you, would you be too angry and hardened to perceive it? Well, give it a try. What do you have to lose? Go ahead and ask God if he is real to reveal himself to you in some way or another. He is more than able to do this because he does this all the time, but most importantly he is longing to, because he loves you and knew everything about you even before you were born.
Regards
Debbie
PS – I’m a scientist. And 90% of my science teachers and lecturers at my state school and university were Christians. Science and faith are not incompatible.
If you know of anyone that has seen him and/or heard him, PLEASE call 911 IMMEDIATELY!
Do a search on the web and you will find that 92% of all scientist are atheist and this includes the greatest scientist of our time.
I don’t expect a jack in a box, I expect him to simply be here. 2,000 and no visit? Hum, would you not visit your child for 2k years? BS
HE WAS HERE AND ALL HE LEFT WAS A NOTE. LOL!!!!
He is here? Hum, just tell me, what is he doing right NOW? Is he watching a child die of starvation and blaming it on some stupid human that he has the power to destroy?
OR is he watching some poor innocent girl get kidnapped and raped over and over again while he watches?
YOU DON’T MAKE ANY SENSE! IS HE HERE OR NOT?? IF HE IS, HE IS ONE SICK BEING!!!
YOU ARE HILARIOUS!
OH and don’t go blaming humans, your FREEWILL line doesn’t work.
If someone brakes into your house with a knife and you have a machine-gun, would you let him kill your son simply because he has freewill? I DON”T THINK SO!
Freewill is not an excuse for a god to let evil run rampart WHEN HE CAN AVOID IT!!!
GET THAT THRU YOUR BRAIN!
So the only “proof” of God’s existence that you will accept is when He decides to punish the wicked rather than patiently waiting for them to turn to Him? You’re challenging God to execute the justice he warns us about, then you will believe? You might want to rethink that one, unless of course you yourself are totally blameless.
“man shall suffer terrible things before seeing the kingdom of god”
hunger seems like a terrible suffer..just like anything else in order to reach heaven you gotta stay true till the end and suffer. very simple
Also jesus didnt come to give peace but eternal life he knows this is a fallen world so forget all that hunger and rape talk .
All these debates over gods that no one has ever seen. Why do these gods never come to pay a visit? 2000 years and nothing.
Nothing but a bunch of old documents that none is sure if they are real or not.
You would think these gods had better foresight than to put all this important information on crappy paper!
Why doesn’t god just appear? Why is it so difficult? He ca do anything right?
I’ll tell you why, because it’s all a lie!
If it quacks like a duck and it looks like a duck, then it is a duck!
Who made the duck???
I could say something silly, like who made your god, but then you would answer, he’s always been there, to which I would respond according to whom? And you would answer, according to the Bible, and I would respond, that the bible is nothing more than a bunch of little nonsensical stories, outright lies, forgeries and atrocities, like kill those who work on the sabbath, or kill anyone who worships other gods.
But then you would answer that you believe in the new NT, to which I would respond, that the SAME god wrote both.
Now, if you choose to believe in that book, then I suggest you follow it to the T, and go kill all other religious people that don’t believe in your god.
Otherwise, you are just picking whatever makes you feel good out of that book, which would put all your believes in a basket named ERROR.
On the other hand, you can open your eyes, and start studying sciences, such as biochemistry and biology, and maybe you can learn enough to make an educated decision as to how we got here.
But hey, it’s better to believe that there is a heaven and that someone is protecting you right? Even if they are not.
EVERY LEGITIMATE study, shows that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhist and any other religious sect, live, hurt, go broke, fall, get sick with all the same deceases, like any agnostic and/or atheist.
92% of all scientist do NOT believe in gods. You know, those people that produced the antibiotic, the engine, the microchip, and all the other things that make your life possible.
Without them, you would probably dead of some decease, just like they did back in the dark ages, and they ALL believed in your god.
So where was god back then?
Think, don’t take your priests word for ANYTHING. They just want to molest children and take your money!
Imagine no religion, no heaven, no hell, just people living for the day – John Lenon
Thanks, Dorian
Sorry, John Lennon.
Dorian,
I am not going to debate with you. You obviously have some hate in you that you need to deal with. We just have to agree to disagree on this. I can only wish you find peace in your life. I will respond to a few of your negative responses.
I have 7 children and I will do all I can to keep them believing in our Lord Jesus Christ. That way they will learn to deal with all that life throws at them. And I pray they won’t have to be confused in their life and live a twisted and depressed life like your John Lennon did. And hopefully they will imitate Christ who gives us “true” eternal peace.
I do teach them about hell. But I teach them that they should not fear its existence because if they live a good live it should not bother them. If try to handle a venomous snake it’s going to bite and kill you. We don’t just ignore that snakes exist because they does not suit us. You can’t just take things out of the world because they may kill you. You work around them in order to survive. That is the same with our soul. The bad things (hell) cannot harm it if it is well prepared for them.
There is one major difference to Jesus than other false prophets, Mohammad, Budda, or whatever you want to call them that ever lived that makes Christianity unique. (With the assumption that Jesus did live and die as the gospels claim and I see no evidence to state otherwise) Our Lord was tortured, humiliated, crucified and died without a complaint. If you were his follower you would have seen that as a defeat (as his apostles initially did) and his following should have ended there and then. But something happened; he conquered death by victoriously rising from the dead. There is no other explanation for the existence of Christianity. He was not to be defeated by the evils of the people of this world that he came to save. If there was no resurrection then there is no Christianity and you and I would not be debating this topic. There are many supernatural miracles that are still happening. Just because Jesus does not make headline News does not mean that he is still not living. That is something you are going to have to look for with an open heart yourself.
He was not conquered then and he will not be conquered now. I pray that before death finds you and if will sooner or later that you will find him. I ask you to not only look at texts that defy Christ but do your searching and read spiritual Christian books. Look deeper into Christianity not just the cover. Don’t you want to find out why? I have looked into your atheist beliefs. I really have. I found no logic there. Everything I did led me back Jesus. I can’t within myself ignore the evidence.
God Bless!
There is no debate because you don’t have a leg to stand on.
Everything you keep talking in your last post is the same thing that is everywhere about all the gods, just a bunch of talk, talk, talk. You know TALK IS CHEAP!
You don’t know me and obviously don’t even know who John Lennon was.
You are so funny, I’m not the one hiding behind a fake god. I stand on my own two feet, thank you very much! Since you can’t say that about yourself, then you must be the one that is depressed or trying to escape something you did.
You can teach your children all you want, in the end, they will come to know that you are not a critical thinker but someone with deep fear of the unknown.
They will come to believe in heaven and hell, which will then mortify them when someone they care dies and they believe that their friend is in hell.
You are doing a disservice to them. A study shows that believing a friend is in hell, can be as traumatizing as sex abuse.
So go ahead and abuse your kids and PLEASE DON’T PRAY FOR ME, because praying doesn’t work, if it did, there WOULDN’T BE WORLD HUNGER!
[Censored for trolling] They clearly don’t understand critical thinking and constantly are biased in what they choose as relevant proofs to what they believe. I am a former Christian turned atheist. One year I was struggling in my faith and decided to research both sides of the argument. Honestly it is not even close and it is clear that God does not exist.
For any proof any believer could bring up of God’s existence I could come up with a hundred as to why he does not. You Christians are truly misguided and while I fought the term for a long time because I felt it was insensitive to my Christian family and friends, you are also brainwashed. It is incredible the lengths a Christian will go to defend a faith that has no ground to stand on.
I would love to talk about the morality of a God that finds it an acceptable punishment to send anybody that doesn’t believe in him to Hell. I find it fascinating that God doesn’t help people in need but constantly showers the wealthy and well off with little miracles that make their lives just that much better. It’s always nice to know that such a moral god will let 9/11 and the Connecticut shooting take place but he leaves little symbols around to let everyone know he was watching ( I.e. a cross in the wreckage and a little cross in the clouds).
Beginning and End I am convinced you are an idiot. The statements you made are atrocious and insulting to ones intelligence. First of all, I didn’t see any links to where you got your information yet you constantly asked for them from Arkenaten. Also, to even suggest that there is more evidence supporting the existence of Jesus over Caesar is mind boggling. You also don’t seem to understand what evidence is anyway. Don’t you find it odd that no source came from when Jesus supposedly lived?
In your post you also claim that because we can’t find earlier writings of HISTORICAL figures that somehow questions their existence is ridiculous. There are many writings about these people during their lives and immediately after that help prove their authenticity. In the case of Homer, while the actual persons life might be under question the fact is that someone wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey and it is credited to a person known as Homer. There is no writings about Jesus until decades after his death and his life remains largely a mystery. He was born and had a hit out on him as a baby and then he seems to disappear only to reappear almost 30 years later to spread the good word.
On top of all that, these people you source as proving the existence of Jesus are doing no such thing. You seem to be getting confused with what is proof of Christ and what is proof of Christians at that time. Nobody mentions Jesus’s existence other than in scorn and instead they talk of Christians or what Christians believe and you somehow interpret that as proof of Jesus.
This is a sad excuse as “proof” that Jesus ever existed and while I wouldn’t rule out that a man named Jesus did walk this Earth at some point, I will say that you whole post does nothing to support that.
Forget it man, there is no point. As long as we can keep religion out of the state and schools, it doesn’t matter one bit.
Now since you were a devoted Christian at one point, I would appreciate it if you can help me get my brother in law out of religion.
He has convinced my two systems and my mom and now they are walking zombies.
Any pointers?
Dorian,
Now, I see where you hate for christianity comes from, there is always a trigger.
God Bless your brother in law. Since you dont want my prayers hopefully your mum and sisters are praying for your conversion.
your family are not walking Zombies they have just woken up to the truth.
Anthony, no you are wrong.
Unfortunately, you just don’t see it.
If prayer worked, there would be no world hunger.
The bible says believe in me and pray, and I will grant you anything. When was the last time that worked?
NEVER
I hate religion simply because it’s NONE factual and it does nothing more than create a FALSE sense of well being.
That’s exactly what a zombie is, someone that doesn’t think!
I want my family back!
Dorian,
Obviously you don’t know your bible very well. it’s not the bible but Jesus that said that.
You must ask in good faith and be in the Grace of the Lord. Read the beatitudes, that is the state you must be in to receive. Jesus answered the request of a pagan roman soldier because he asked in faith, an open heart and in good spirit.
also hunger is a direct result of man not God. It is the free choice that God gives you and me that makes our live so wonderful. Do you really believe ending religion will end world hunger? If you do then you are not a very intelligent person. Its people’s greed and not religion that is direct result of world hunger.
Yes, some people disguise themselves behind religion as they do behind politics and the law. It does not make our constitution bad. Just greedy people that will be rejected by Christ. Being a priest or minister will not assure you heaven (make no mistake there), on the contrary they will be judged by our Lord on the responsibilities they have chosen for themselves.
I don’t represent people or churches but the message of Jesus that’s all.
Being a Christian is not a brainwash or being a Zombie. I have my free choice and am not compelled to be anything unless I chose to.
I don’t know what state your family is in or what church they are following so I can’t comment there. But I assure you our Lord Jesus Christ who did live, died and was crucified is no looking for zombie followers. What other person that ever lived felt and gave comfort for the lowly. As our Lord Said:
Blessed/Happy/Fortunate are:
the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
those who mourn: for they will be comforted.
the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
they who hunger and thirst for righteousness: for they will be satisfied.
the merciful: for they will be shown mercy.
the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
the peacemakers: for they shall be called children of God.
those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Once you have this spirit then ask and you shall receive. Isn’t it wonderful that we have the opportunity to praise our Lord even when we are lacking in the material needs of this world.
I pray all the time, but God doesn’t see everything my way. I know that at the end my prayers are answered. Sometimes just not as I expected. Kind of like a kid that gets knocked back on a request from their mum or dad. Sometimes its for their own good. And they do see that as they mature.
God is beyond space and time so we can never comprehend him. Just walk outside and take a look at the world he has created. Even scientists agree that if anything in the natural world was out of place we would not exsist. If the earth itself was not exactly positioned where we are there would be no life. A coincidence? Maybe but unlikely. Just think about that, its a design not luck that we are here. It doesnt just happen. I hope you see yourselve a a unique being with a purpose and not just a body.
I’d just like to say that we aren’t supposed to just sit there and expect the prayer to be answered without any effort on our part.God works through us to end things like that… and since not everybody goes to help in areas such as world hunger… yes its still there 🙂
I don’t know what you are smoking, but you have some serious issues!
LISTEN TO ME, You are so far gone, that it’s scary to read what you write! You are a walking, talking sells man for some imaginary friend!
[Censored for trolling]
Dorian – this is the final warning, please refrain from personal attacks and all the use of profanity. Thanks.
Dorian,
Í have no intention to upset you. I respect you point of view although I belive your frustration comes from God bugging you. It appears you are serching for answers.
I wont bother you anymore.
I have attached a link written by a athiest that has converted to Christianity. Maybe you would like to read it.
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
Dorian – just noticed some of your comments here on this thread. Just thought I should comment that you are possibly the worst debater I have ever encountered. You obviously have very little knowledge of the following fields, among others:
– physics
– chemistry
– biology
– cosmology
– history
– politics
– archaeology
– paleontology
And you clearly know absolutely nothing about the Bible (so I guess your etymology isn’t great either), yet, strangely, that doesn’t stop you from drawing conclusions about it. How scientific.
Fantastic reference to the education system, too. Yeah man, wouldn’t want that to become corrupted or anything. Quick! Act now before lies are taught in schools about any subject! Lol.
So, before you try to wrap your brain around a million truths at one time and your case of cognitive dissonance becomes so great that you end up in an asylum, tell me one thing: do you believe in the theory of evolution? There’s not much point jumping ahead of that right now.
Evolution is NOT a theory, it’s a FACT. There is a Theory of Evolution that tries to explain that FACT, just like there is a theory of gravity that explains the FACT of gravity.
Your ignorance is just as vast as your presumptuousness, which seem to walk hand in hand in these circles.
So coming from you, I’ll take your comment as a compliment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_fact_and_theory
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
http://www.nas.edu/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html
Now for todays lesson:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome_2_(human)
Lol. “Evolution is a fact”. Oh yeah, ‘something comes from nothing’ – that’s real scientific man. Lol Darwin. A guy with too much spare time who knew nothing about science. To his credit, his admitted the holes in his THEORY and they have since been smashed apart repeatedly. Funny how the Black Nobility – who fund evolution propaganda via the ‘education’ system to indoctrinate people with atheism – openly worship Satan and other deities themselves. Funny that.
Give me ONE example of a mutation or evolutionary process which is proven to increase the information in the genome.
Don’t bother responding if you don’t know the difference between horizontal changes and vertical ‘evolution’.
Look up quantum vacuum fluctuations, because something really does come from nothing, they are just very small. Also, evolution is a scientific theory which means it has been proven enough to be listed as a fact. Just because the originator of the theory doubted it back before more evidence for it could be found is completely irrelevant. Because of the middle of your post though I can not tell if you are trolling or not, unfortunately. But as for the end, google is quite a useful tool. I’ve found that answer a dozen times, I’m sure you can find it once.
Leechris,
If evolution has been “proven”, who is the creature that is our genetic ancestor that we evolved from? -B&E
Where’s your reply bro? Where’s your irrefutable evidence of new information being created in the genome via an evolutionary process?
I don’t need to go into the ridiculously long list of other reasons why ‘evolution’ is impossible, and the world’s most obvious scam.
So now you don’t know how to read either?
I gave you several links that contained all the information you asked for. But since most of them are over your head, I shouldn’t have given you the benefit of the doubt, my bad.
I’m just glad we don’t count on people like you to build anything useful, otherwise we’d be back in the dark ages, where you people come from.
I’m sure your expertise is coming up with excuses and conspiracy theories.
Good luck with that.
P.S. please don’t go to hospitals, they are full of medicine created on the theory of evolution, which you seriously don’t deserve.
You should pray to your god next time you get sick, you know, like these mothers that don’t take their children to hospitals and watch them die. Or like the retarded preacher that believed what your imaginary jesus said in the bible about poison, he took the poison from a snake bite and refused to get scientific help. Guess were he is now? 6′ under.
Thank you very much.
That’s the difference between superstitious delusion and REALITY.
LMFAO!!!
WOW. WHAT A SURPRISE. A reply that doesn’t answer my question, but attacks me personally.
That’s the thing with ugly little trolls like you – no evidence – ever. Just whining and whinging and no intelligent discussion. You just be a good little troll, and do the incredibly intelligent thing and believe everything the lamestream media tells you to believe. Yes, just keep drinking your fluoride.
Try to pull yourself away from your ever-reliable Wikipedia for one second, and just state, in a few words, where there is irrefutable evidence of completely new genome information being created out of nothing, due to an evolutionary process? Do you need me to rephrase the question? Read it reeeaalllly slowly – you’ll understand it eventually if you keep at it. I’ll give you a sticker!
You seriously want to go down the medical path, even after you’ve been badly beaten on the ‘evolution’ issue? Oh Dorian, why do you throw up such soft balls? Vaccines good for you? No cure for cancer? LMFAO. Man how stupid are you? Boy do I have an opportunity for you today! A great, one of a kind bridge in NY! You can walk over it, drive over it, stuff can go under it. It’s an investment that can’t be missed. Please find my Nigerian bank account details below, and we’ll be unveiling the Dorian Bridge in NY before the end of the week!
No 1, you started with the smart remarks, and No2 wiki is pretty darn reliable. If for some CRAZY reason you don’t trust it, then go get the SOURCE and STOP winning like a baby!
The link had EVERYTHING you need to answer your question, but instead you keep arguing a mute point.
Here is a very easy explanation of evolution that even a child can understand. I don’t know about you, but I’ll give it a shot. Just follow the numbers 1-11, you think you can do that?
1) Living things reproduce. That is, they have children, either through sexual reproduction or asexual reproduction (like how many single-celled organisms split off into clones).
2) When a living thing reproduces, it passes on its genetic information, often in the form of DNA, but some species use RNA instead. So for example, two blue-eyed parents will likely have a blue-eyed child, because blue eyes are a recessive genetic trait (note: this is a simplification, as eye color is determined by more than one gene, so there’s a small chance the other genes could alter the probability of blue-eyed children).
3) When DNA is copied, the process isn’t perfect. Mutations occur, which means base pairs within the genes can be changed, deleted, or copied. Sometimes, even entire sections of a chromosome are removed or duplicated.
4) DNA codes for proteins, which determine traits. Going back to eye color, there are pigments in the iris, and certain genes code for these pigments. That’s the general process by which genes determine traits.
5) When a gene is mutated, it produces an altered protein, which often (but not always) alters the shape and function of that protein. This leads to new traits, like diseases or extra limbs or tails in humans, or color changes in skin and fur, or size, etc.
6) Out in nature, everything is about surviving and reproduction. If an organism dies before it’s reproduced, then its genes die with it.
7) Different traits allow organisms to live longer and/or reproduce more, or cause them to die sooner and/or reproduce less. For example, in the desert, against sand, a dark-colored animal will be easier for predators to spot, and therefore will be more likely to die sooner than light-colored animals.
8) When genes mutate, they affect traits. Traits affect survival. Survival determines whether that gene–and thus that trait–will be passed onto an organism’s offspring. Therefore, a trait that helps an organism survive will be passed on more often than a trait that makes it die or infertile.
9) Over time, as detrimental mutations are killed off and beneficial ones survive, a population of organisms will drift towards a set of traits adapted to the environment that killed off the negative ones.
10) Over even more time–usually millions of years at least, unless some major event suddenly changes the environment’s favorability–these mutations add up, leading to populations that are very different from their original, non-mutant ancestors.
So steps 1-10 are evolution. Here’s step 11, and it’s one of the most important things to keep in mind:
11) Species don’t exist. Nature doesn’t know what a species is. Genes don’t know whether they’re part of a horse or part of a Venus flytrap. The concept of a species was invented by humans for the sole purpose of categorizing different organisms. We don’t even have a solid definition of it. The most common definition is “if two organisms could reproduce, and their offspring could reproduce, then those are the same species.” But there are many problems with this, the first being that it doesn’t apply to anything that reproduces asexually. The second problem is that there are cases where hybrids are perfectly fertile, but we still consider them separate species because they “don’t usually” mate, though “usually” can change over time (see: grolar bears).
So our other two definitions of species try to counter those issues. One is morphology. That is, we look at how similar the organisms “look”, in terms of what structures they have and where. But even within a species, there are many variances–just look at the physical differences among the many breeds of dogs! So we’ve basically just made up a threshold, where we say, “if these two organisms differ by, oh, let’s call it X%, then they’re different species”. But that’s fairly arbitrary. The last definition of species is based on how similar their DNA is. After all, DNA is what ultimately gets passed from parent to child. But that has the same issue where even within a species, there’s variance, and we just have to pick a number arbitrarily and stick with it as a threshold. It’s useful, since we can follow the emergence and change and disappearance of different genes over time, but it’s still based on a number we picked for our own categorization, not anything nature made or has.
Which means that after enough mutations from steps 1-10, the new organisms in the population are ones that we humans consider “different enough to be different species”.
So, there it is, the overview of evolutionary biology condensed into 11 steps.
Now, which of those steps do you think is total bunk, so I can find the sources for you?
Well predictably what you have provided here is garbage dressed up to be science. Your entire argument is laughably flawed:
1. Mutation is NOT evolution. It is destruction and disorder, NOT construction and order. Let’s not ignore science.
2. The deception continues by throwing around figures of millions or billions of years to create the illusion that random changes have enough time to organise themselves. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (you can include the sun in the system – it does not matter) is a law – like gravity – let’s not ignore science. Even accepting the unfounded billions-of-years theory, the odds prove that this is laughable. Let’s not ignore physics and mathematics.
3. The scientific fact of the irreducibly complex structure of cells is totally ignored by your story. It is not scientifically possible for brand new, different functional cells – that advance the capabilities of an organism – to be created one piece at a time. All components must exist simultaneously and immediately in order to build a cell that, according to evolutionary theory, the organism doesn’t know it needs yet. Even Darwin acknowledged this: “If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.” Charles Darwin
4. DNA is a code. Codes can only come from an intelligent source. Name one other functional code produced by a random, non intelligent source? The fact that I even have to pose this question is ridiculous.
5. I don’t even need to talk about the fossil record, the signature ratio found in life and non-life, the terminal effect of tides on life millions of years ago, the stupid odds, the constant flow of manufactured evolution evidence hoaxes, the obvious control that the elite have over the ‘education’ system, and so much more.
I’ll leave you with this: Dorian, if you are so smart, then why do you refuse to follow the cardinal rule of truth seeking? That is: FOLLOW THE MONEY. Evolution, carbon tax, 911, WWI, II, vaccines, GMO, cancer, false teachings etc etc etc whatever – following the money is so obvious that it should be the first thing you do before you start assigning credibility weightings to information being fed to you.
Can any evolution-believing person show me hard evidence disputing what I have written above as to the existence of a creator?
Can any evolution-believing person show me just one evolutionary process that leads to the creation of completely new information in the genome?
Can any evolution-believing person show me just one observable and measurable instance of one kind evolving into another kind?
Can any evolution-believing person explain why there are not millions of fossils showing organisms transitioning between kinds? And also explain why the fossil record is completely random, not layered?
Can any evolution-believing person explain how cells can possibly evolve to a higher function bit-by-bit, when all the bits are required at the same time in order to even exist?
Can any evolution-believing person explain why the academic industry, which is in the pocket of the elite, resorts to hoaxes, Hollywood, media control/manipulation, lying to little children and intimidation/dismissal of any peer who suggests that intelligent design supported by science? Why so scared? Why don’t they just show PROOF? Why the need to destroy people’s livelihood? Why don’t they just prove the points above?
Can any evolution-believing person tell me what the calculated odds are for evolution to occur? You know that scientifically and mathematically, the odds are ZERO, right?
Can any evolution-believing person explain why, when it comes trying to push evolution propaganda, the principles, processes and laws of science go out the window, and there is a pathetic and desperate clambering to come up with some sort of bizarre theoretical story that they try to call science? What happened to the scientific method?
This is from Dorian precious Wikipedia: The scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as: “a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.”[3]
The chief characteristic which distinguishes the scientific method from other methods of acquiring knowledge is that scientists seek to let reality speak for itself,[discuss] supporting a theory when a theory’s predictions are confirmed and challenging a theory when its predictions prove false. Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of obtaining knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses via predictions which can be derived from them. These steps must be repeatable to guard against mistake or confusion in any particular experimenter. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many independently derived hypotheses together in a coherent, supportive structure. Theories, in turn, may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context.
Scientific inquiry is generally intended to be as objective as possible in order to reduce biased interpretations of results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive, and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, giving them the opportunity to verify the results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of the data to be established (when data is sampled or compared to chance).
Sound like evolutionists? Nup. Sound like Darwinian Theory? Nup. Sound like intelligent design? Yep.
So anyway……….using the scientific method, will someone – ANYONE – prove evolution to me by address the points above?? If evolution is so a fact, then there will be mountains of evidence, and resolving all my points will be child’s play. So, if any evolution-believing person has the answers to all of the above, you may begin to type your answer.
Until then, it is pretty obvious that God created this world.
Didn’t think so.
Hi Andrew,
Please feel free to disagree with the articles and offer counter arguments as much as you like. But personal attacks are not going to be tolerated. Please refrain from name-calling and attacks or else it will result in being banned from commenting on the site. Thanks.
THE BIBLE IS NOT A HISTORICAL DOCUMENT. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE NEED TO REPEAT THAT??????
How do you mix things up in you mind?
Simply because something is written by a human, doesn’t mean that it’s true or false.
The DIFFERENCE is SIMPLE, one was written by men 2,000 years ago, who claim that a god told them to write it with NO eye witnesses!
I know the truth, it’s in black in white in research documents done with eye witnesses and can be duplicated 100%. You see, in science, if an experiment fails just ONE TIME, it is THROWN OUT.
Yet you guys continue to accept thing in a book that makes claim after claim after claim that never turn out real or provable.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE!
Show me ONE document written at the time of Christ, when he was there, and written as an EYE WITNESS! and collaborated by other documents of people who were there at the same time, and then we’ll talk, till then, you are just talking to the wind.
I BELIEVE IN PROVABLE REALITIES. I do not have faith. PERIOD. If you don’t see that, then you don’t understand.
Christians simply place their believes in the writings of people that lived 2000 years ago! You are putting yourselves in a position, where an ancient man is dictating what you do EVERY Sunday. People that had ZERO clues as to what reality was, and here you are, following their lead! You are LOST without a TRACE, waiting for something that will NEVER arrive, cause it’s NOT real.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but life is what it is, you can’t make yourself believe something that it’s not, otherwise, you are living a lie.
Hi Dorian,
You are misunderstanding the way historical research is done. As I have asked others, which historical figure from antiquity has more evidence of their existence than Jesus Christ? Just name one.
You are using a standard that historians themselves do not use. Ancient historical data is evaluated based in many cases, on texts post-date the person in question. This is very common. So while it may not satisfy you, for academics and experts in the field, it works just fine. And the Bible, just like the Egyptian Book of the Dead or the Epic of Gilgamesh, is certainly a historical document. This does not mean everything in it is true, but does not change the fact that it is.
NO HISTORIAN believes in the Jesus that you believe in.
Historians may agree that “a” Jesus lived, as many Jesus lived and that there appears to be one that preached, but none agree with the miracles and all that jive.
I still can’t find one single piece of evidence from the same time period. The agreement seems to stem from using sources that mention jesus from over 20 years after the assumed event. That to me is NOT evidence, and I WILL look into this further.
But anything supernatural is out the door!
You want to believe in supernatural, go ahead, next time you get sick, put yourself in the hands of your Christ and DON”T TAKE MEDICINE OR GO TO THE HOSPITAL.
Then we’ll test your god.
I”m done talking about this garbage.
Dorian – I never asserted that historical writings about Jesus prove his miracles. I said they prove His existence.
And again, I ask – name a figure from antiquity who are you sufficiently convinced existed. And we will simply compare the evidence for that person against evidence for Jesus Christ’s existence.
Caesar.
We have his own writings, contempory coins, images, statues, etc, documentation by his own contemporaries, and we have an inexplicable hole left if he did not exist. Someone had to have been Caesar at the time. If it wasn’t Julius, then who was it?
You can’t say any of that in regards to Jesus of Nazareth. We’re not even sure Nazareth was inhabited in the 1st century.
Caesar. Excellent choice.
Let’s compare the real, actual historic evidence (as opposed to the pop culture myth of Caesar). The best proof of Caesar’s existence are the Gallic Wars, written by Caesar. The earliest manuscript copies (there are 10 of them) go back to the 9th century AD, over 900 years after his death. That’s it. And the bulk of the 75 manuscripts in existence were written in the 15th century.
You’ll notice I use this link because these experts note the flaws in the manuscripts as whole portions are missing in 25% of them.
As for Caesar’s contemporaries, he was most mentioned by Cicero. And yet, the earliest manuscript of anything produced by Cicero dates to the 14th century:
There is a fragment that dates to the 9th century but it carries little information. And also, so you know, Cicero did not write most of his “works” down. He gave speeches.
Appian’s history of the Gallic Wars have manuscripts that date back to only medieval times:
So once again we are talking about 14-1500 years after Caesar’s life.
Compare this to the literally thousands of manuscripts of the New Testament that reference Jesus, some of the falling within a century of his death. As I said, when it comes to figures from antiquity, you are not going to easily find writings from the exact time of their lives. 500 years would be amazing. In the case of Jesus Christ, it’s mind-blowing. There are, again, thousands of manuscripts within the first 500 years of Jesus’ life, completely blowing away any manuscript evidence of the existence of Caesar. Now I understand that there is much fanfare made about Caesar in pop culture, but it is all based on “proof” that is 1000-1500 years after his death. And remember, the Gallic Wars, the earliest evidence in existence, was written by Caesar. So we are taking the stories of how those wars played out from his perspective entirely (but I’m sure there was no bias).
If you have any disagreement, I simply challenge you to provide a link to any actual manuscript written about Caesar during his life time. Or even within 900 years of his death. I early await your findings.
Coins
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=523
Everything I read about your claim puts you in very odd position.
http://vridar.org/2010/05/01/comparing-the-evidence-for-jesus-with-other-ancient-historical-persons/
Here is a very detailed post.
http://trish-m.hubpages.com/hub/Jesus-Christ-or-Julius-Caesar-Who-is-More-Likely-to-Have-Been-a-Real-Person
You have nothing to stand on, NOTHING.
This debate is for adults, Dorian. Not truculent little boys.
The historians you are talking about are all biblical historians that have their agenda.
The fact that there is NO documentation from that period is all that is necessary.
Jonathan, I think you are confusing what evidence means. A single book does not count as enough evidence. Their claim is a very large one indeed and if there was one book written in that time that claimed that everybody rode on pink elephants than that would not be enough evidence to support the claim.
Where are all the other eye witness accounts from the thousands that supposedly interacted with him? Were every single one of them illiterate so they couldn’t keep record of what he did? This would seem like God chose a place and time in history that would have made it impossible to verify to anyone else in the world as truth just to confuse us all. Another thing is that it seems odd that the only work written about Jesus during these times were put in the Bible. Why didn’t they have any of their own writings independent of it?
Did all other documentation just get lost with time so that all we have left is the Bible? This would be an outstanding coincidence but even if that was the case it is just another example of God not caring enough for the people of the future to have sufficient evidence to Jesus’s existence and purpose. This is not only unfair, it is rather cruel that he would leave our souls up to that kind of chance.
Pretty much this comes down to their not being enough literature or evidence from that time to support the Bibles claim. The Bible is definitely a part of history but to claim what is written in it is history can not be supported.
Andrew,
I completely understand where you’re coming from. It does seem strange (even to me – a believer) that there aren’t a ton of extra-biblical writings that talk about Jesus. I would like to point out however, that there are other historical references to Jesus and to some of His followers (as B&E indicates in his main article here), but whenever something is found, non-believers dismiss it as forged. So, no matter what or how many extra-biblical accounts are discovered, they will all be challenged as frauds by the unbelieving population. Darned if you do, darned if you don’t. If archaelogists found a mail bag of 10,000 scrolls of personal letters written to family members, people would find all kinds of reasons to discredit the discovery. It wouldn’t change anything. The bottom line is that you have to believe God’s word. At the end of the day it comes down to faith in God’s word, not faith in someone’s personal correspondence.
No matter what “evidence” God gives people, they always demand more. They will never be satisfied, and God doesn’t answer to His creation. We answer to Him.
Did Mohammed fly away in a white horse? Why not? The Quran says so.
Did Mohammed split the moon in half? Why not according to the Quran an entire town witnessed the event.
There are your eye witness, right out the door. Ancient books can’t be trusted at all. Read Jesus interrupted and then come back.
I don’t have to see oxygen, we can see the effect of it not being there, just put yourself in a vacuum and I promise you’ll believe in oxygen within 3 minutes flat!
I can’t say the same for your god, since I’m still here after not believing in it for many, many years, and the same can be said for millions of people who don’t believe. and that’s without counting on the believers from other religions!
None of which can live without oxygen.
But the same cannot be said for about 1 billion people on this earth. Not the majority but still a sizeable percentage of the world’s population.
“Wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many walk in this way but narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life and few find it.” Jesus did not intend on winning some global popularity contest.
You raise a lot of good questions and Christians will do well to grapple with some of these issues themselves. But your insults and angry tone make your posts difficult to read and I think I’ve read enough of these posts. I can only wish your family members well for having to put up with your rants. We get it! You don’t agree and you think we are all brainwashed. But then if that’s the case, we all have our brains washed by whatever we submerse ourselves in – yours would be atheistic, anti-Christ, Dawkins-type beliefs.
Take religion out of state? You wanna take out the Judeo-Christo basis for your laws that keep you safe and society ticking over…?
Who made the oxygen? and who set the earth in orbit at JUST the right distance from the sun?
You’re right I believe in Oxygen! But after anyone believes in it, so what? For me, life gets a whole lot more meaningful by asking who made the oxygen that keeps me alive? and Who set the earth in orbit at JUST the right distance from the sun so we don’t freeze over or burn up?
Do you think faith in a creator God is any more absurd than believing we all got here by some cosmic accidental explosion?
I don’t rant, I’m simply stating the facts.
Who made oxygen? Please go back to school and learn chemistry. Don’t ask questions that have already been answered by science.
Yes, keep it out of our schools, we have enough issues with humans as it is. We don’t need any more.
If your god wants to help, then tell him to show up and stop hiding. Otherwise, get out of the way. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
and YES, it’s more logical, probable and factual (based on observations) that things happened little by little than to believe some being came to be KNOWING EVERYTHING.
THAT is completely absurd, specially looking a the book that he supposedly wrote, which is full of irregularities, and that’s being polite.
Seriously bro, where did you right fear? It’s all over, fear of hell, fear of sin, fear of this and/or that…
You may not have literally written it, but you imply it everywhere. You reply acknowledges this very fact when you say that you don’t have to fear it, because you know, which is a lie, since you haven’t died! It is nothing more than your opinion, and like asses, everyone has one.
I can’t help being sarcastic, because the very essence of this conversation is based on nothing but word of mouth.
The bible is an instigator of negative feelings, pushing against everything nature is. SEX IS NOT BAD, it is a NATURAL occurrence in life, only the bible is crazy enough to turn it into something evil. That’s why preachers are molesting kids, cause they don’t get any!
Those 12 mean are hearsay! Anyone can say that 12 men where there!
They were ignorant fools, they didn’t know ANYTHING! ZERO, ZILCH, NADA!
Pagan gods where treated the SAME WAY! AS IF THEY WERE REAL! Well, where they? NO!!!
Same thing!
No you are a sinner, keep that negative garbage to YOUR SELF!
The story, the entire story for that matter is nothing more than that, pagan stories past thru generations.
The 12 apostles are all hearsay, there are NO documents from that period that shows any evidence to them.
SO RIDDLE ME THIS, WHY DO MUSLIMS BELIEVE THAT THEIR GOD IS THE REAL GOD?
WHY WOULD THEY DEVOTE THEIR LIFES TO THEIR GOD?
IT’S ALL THE SAME!
How did the conspiracy happen, hum, let me see… Oh, yeah, the Romans would burn you if you didn’t believe, the same the spaniards did to the indians and all of latin & south america!
BLOOD, that’s how!
In addition, have you heard of the twin towers in NY? The followers of the muslim religion sacrificed themselves the same way as the christians did for their religion. SAME THING.
“On the cross, God placed our sin on Christ’s account, and placed Christ’s perfection on our account. Anyone who tramples such a costly gift of mercy……….why should that person expect the “merciful God” to do anything else but impose the maximum penalty on him.”
First, that’s the definition of mercy! But most importantly, because simply put, your god has left such disastrous and crappy proof, that it has million upon millions of people with different believes. Not only thru large religions like muslims, but even within the bible followers. How many sects are they? I’ve lost count! They actually fight each other over this stuff!
The bible is contradiction all on it’s own.
A GOD, is a perfect being, incapable of ERROR. Now why would they be an OLD and NEW Testament?
There could only be a TESTAMENT, the very existence of two, show that this GOD is IMPERFECT!
and therefore renders everything in it as HEARSAY! PERIOD!
Wow. You’re all over the map. Not sure where you get your information, but its bad.
Think through this….
Muslims believe and die for their belief. But they don’t “know” one way or another. Don’t get ahead of me here and scream “you don’t “know” either”! My argument to you was that if you are correct and Jesus was just some man who never did rise from the dead, then the original 12 (not me) WOULD know that. So then why would they allow themselves to be tortured and die for something they KNOW is a lie? It’s a simple question.
If Jesus never existed, then how do you explain Christianity in the first century? This was a period when there obviously were eye witnesses. If the account of Christ wasn’t true, why wasn’t it refuted then?
What is bad about it? I answered every point you made. You may not like the answers, but they are based on fact.
What do you mean they don’t know one way or another? That doesn’t make any sense. They died for their God, Allah.
I just answered you, it’s all hearsay, there is no evidence of the 12 apostles.
I answered that already, christianity was forced on people by the sword.
It makes laugh how all these latin americans and blacks for that mater, follow christianity, when their ancestors where butchered for not bowing to this very same god.
And here they are bowing to the very same god!
Oh the calamity of it all!
Okay, I’ll try this one last time. You are not reading what I am writing, you’re missing the distinction.
You replied “What do you mean they don’t know one way or another? That doesn’t make any sense. They died for their God, Allah.”
It makes perfect sense. Muslims do not “know” whether the claims of their prophet Mohammed are true or false. They “believe” the claims are true, but they don’t “know.” If they could “know” (not suppose) for sure that Mohammed was a fraud, they wouldn’t volunteer to be suicide bombers. But they don’t know whether it is true or fake, so they HOPE and BELIEVE it to be true, and do crazy things based on that belief/hope.
The same rule applies to Christians. If Christians could “know” for certain that Christ was a fraud, they wouldn’t follow Him. But there’s no way for today’s Christians to “know.” They have to “believe” and hope just like the muslims.
Here is the crucial difference that you keep missing in my posts: The very first Christians, the ones who lived during Jesus’ time on earth, are the only ones who could “know” for certain if Christ was a fraud. So if Christ did not rise from the dead and show Himself to them afterwards, then He was a fraud, and they knew it! They were witnesses! So if they knew Christ remained in the tomb like any ordinary man, WHY did they lie, and then choose to suffer torture and death for their lie?
THAT my friend is what “makes no sense.”
As for the existence of the Apostles, your argument that they didn’t exist because its “hearsay” doesn’t make any sense. Just because something is hearsay doesn’t means its not true. We all deal with hearsay on a regular basis (i.e. gossip, just to name one) and we find that more often than not, the hearsay proves to be true. I disagree that the stories about the Apostles and Christ are hearsay, but even if they were, that doesn’t logically or reasonably disqualify them as fraud.
I get what you are saying.
So then, where does it say that these people where being killed right after his death?
Where THE SAME PEOPLE THAT SAW HIM ALIVE AGAIN, THE SAME PEOPLE THAT WERE KILLED BY THE ROMANS?
Yes, hearsay, can SOMETIMES be true, but why would GOD, leave the most important event in the UNIVERSE to hearsay!
Would you purchase a $25K house on hearsay? I wouldn’t, and that house is as cheap as it gets.
But for all we know, it has a gas leak that would cost you $1,000,000 to fix.
God doesn’t leave it to hearsay. While you will accept the writings of other people during that timeframe, you choose not to accept the writings of the eye witnesses because their writings were compiled into a book you disagree with. So YOU consider it hearsay. But its not. Eye witness accounts are not hearsay.
Ok I feel like I have to get back into this thing
First of all, Debbie what kind of scientist are you? Not saying you’re lying but I would like to know what kind of field of science you study as well as where you went to school.
I also want to point out a few things. First of all, the something I here Christians say a lot is “you must open your heart and seek him out to find Jesus” or something along those lines. This is a contradiction. If you do this you are admitting you already believe in God or want to believe in him so of course you will take things that you would otherwise be skeptical towards, as confirmation.
Secondly, I would challenge Christian here to find 5 studies that prove Jesus was the man he said he was. This article is not one of those. The 12 disciples dying is not proof as there is no historical documentation that these men even existed. Of course Christianity was founded somewhere and there were people that believed that he rose from the dead and such, but I have never found actual eye witness accounts apart from what is written in the Bible and if you are to take that as historical evidence then you must take every holy book from every religion as the same. The Bible should be able to be verified outside of itself to be a proven historical record.
Beginning and End, again as I said before in a previous post, there are many historical figures that can be proven but Jesus is not one of them. To proclaim that Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and others somehow have less evidence to their existence than Jesus is absurd. These people can be tracked from birth until death and have many eye witness writings of their lives. Even in the Bible Jesus only appears at birth and then the last 3 years of his life.
Another thing is that if you are a Christian you must not believe in Muslim, Hindu or other worldwide beliefs. If you do not believe in them do you have can you disprove them? If you can’t and you simply know by faith that they are wrong then you see the problem we have with you. If you can disprove it I would like to know how. You might cite historical evidence as to where they came from and how they are wrong. I can do the same with your religion. You might point out the errors in texts and contradictions of their beliefs but I can do the same for yours. You might say that you have had a religious experience that proves to you that your religion is the correct one but I would point out that members of every religion throughout history have had similar or even the exact same experiences in the name of their god or gods. You see, from an outsiders point of view, you are atheist to every other religion that has ever existed except your own but you do not look at your religion with the same critical eye that you look at others and that is your mistake.
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for your comments. I will just make 2 quick comments:
1. Evidence of Jesus vs. Alexander the Great – Since you have mentioned Alexander The Great, I will issue the challenge to you. Please simple provide the links that demonstrate the manuscript evidence of Alexander The Great’s life. Let’s just compare the evidence of Alexander the Great vs. Jesus. I submit that once again, it is not even close. The evidence of Jesus dwarfs any ancient manuscript evidence of Alexander The Great. Since you clearly disagree, I will quote the Greeks, “he who asserts, must prove.” So provide links to the ancient manuscript evidence from the time of Alexander’s life and I will gladly examine all of them.
2. Proof of Jesus’ divinity – I do not believe in Jesus’ divinity based on “evidence.” I believe based on faith. I do not wish to give any other impression. I am absolutely a faith-based believer in Jesus Christ, The Son of God and Messiah. Being a Christian is not an intellectual exercise. We have an informed faith, but at the end of the day it is faith. Yes, people witnesses Jesus’ miracles and wrote about them, but you dismiss them (even though you probably believe Alexander The Great conquered the known world at 13 years of age). He was witnessed by 500 people after His resurrection but you cast doubts because the accounts were written by His followers (but friends and employees of Alexander the Great or Caesar’s testimony are fully acceptable and credible). That is your prerogative. But know, that you will never come to a Christian belief in Jesus Christ based on pure investigation. The Bible is clear: “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” – Hebrews 11:6.
No one is expecting you to believe in God before knowing anything about Him. I understand that concern. But that is far different than putting God on trial and coming in with a host of prejudgments and antagonism. You are not being fair. It’s no different than seeing someone from a certain ethnic group and treating them based purely on stereotype. That is not getting to know the person. You are not judging them fairly once you start speaking to them, but are seeing them through the prism you have created in your mind, even though it is irrelevant to who they truly are. If you adopt some humility and try to get to know God without trying to prosecute Him, you will be surprised by the results. I hope you consider it and look forward to the evidence of Alexander The Great.
B&E,
I accept your challenge and will do the research but please do not insult my intelligence by making assertions as to what I believe in history by making snide comments. It’s going to be a while before I reply with the evidence because I have a thing I’m getting ready for but I’ll try to post it in the next 24 hours.
I will say though that faith is a poor excuse in belief. Why do you have faith. Did you grow up learning the Bible is true? Did you go to church seeking something to fill the void in your life? Did you experience a tragedy that led to you seeking answers? These are almost always one of the reasons one turns to religion. I would think though that your god would be a little more willing to give evidence to people as their souls are kind of on the line. I grew up in church and believed it all. I stopped believing when I fond enough evidence to realize my faith was misplaced as all I had to go on was faith. I wonder if you have ever whole heatedly seeked out proof that God doesn’t exist with an open as you wish non believers to do for the opposite. It is quite revealing and although it hurts at first to lose God, it turns out much better in the end.
Thanks for posting Andrew, cause I can’t do this on my own. I have to many things to do. I like the debate, it leads to the truth, which is all that matters, but things need to get done.
Again, thanks.
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for getting back to me. I apologize if you took my comments as snide, but please know I was not being the least bit sarcastic in anything I said in my prior comment to you. As for my spiritual background I grew up in church and grew up questioning everything. I was the person who was often asking questions in Sunday School the teacher had no answer to. So I understand the desire to question and want to know the deeper things of God. But I was that way out of curiosity, not because I was trying to “disprove” God. So while I can relate to some of what you say I certainly cannot relate to your entire perspective.
I look forward to your manuscript evidence of Alexander The Great from his lifetime.
Andrew,
You wrote “I stopped believing when I fond enough evidence to realize my faith was misplaced as all I had to go on was faith. I wonder if you have ever whole heatedly seeked out proof that God doesn’t exist with an open as you wish non believers to do for the opposite. It is quite revealing and although it hurts at first to lose God, it turns out much better in the end.”
I don’t mean to butt in to your conversation with BA&E, but if you are willing to take the time, I would be extremely interested in learning about the quite revealing evidence/proof you found that your faith was misplaced.
Jonathan
Honestly there is too much to give sufficient evidence but I’ll give a few examples.
1. This is actually something I realized on my own but going on the internet I realized that many had come to the same conclusion as me. If God is real then free will can not exist. If God is an all powerful being (he must be to have created the universe) and has infinite intelligence (he must be to know have been able to design the universe) than how can free will possibly exist? God couldn’t possibly have created Adam without knowing when and where he would sin because he designed him to sin at the time he did just as he designed the serpent to deceive Eve when he did. That goes for every one of us for we can only do exactly what he has planned for us.
I have previously compared this to God being a programmer. Christians think of us humans as being more like an artificial intelligence that can learn and begin to do things on its own. However if God is like Christians believe him to be, then we can only ever be a simple program that can only do functions at God’s will.
2. The morality of God in general is atrocious. He has no problem with things like genocide, murder, rape, slavery, or anything like that. God gave David the ability to conquer everywhere he went in the name of God slaughtering thousands. God killed the first born of all the Egyptians that didn’t have the blood of a lamb above their door. God only punishment for a man raping a virgin is to have him pay for the deed to her parents and then he can marry them. God says that slaves are property and as long as you don’t kill them, you can treat them however you like. These are all things found in the Old Testament. If you try to say that when Jesus came that changed everything than you are a fool. You cannot ignore these things that are clearly morally wrong and then say that God is allowed to change his mind. If you say that God’s is god so he is allowed to do as he pleases then why does the Holy Spirit only work on humans?
3. There are many more arguments that Christians try to use as reasons as to why God exists. I would suggest going to Ironchariots.org as it explains why these reasoning’s are incorrect as well as give many examples as to why God doesn’t exist.
Very interesting. My personal view of free-will is similiar to yours, but not exactly. Also, where you choose to focus on what you see as the bad aspects of not having free will, I focus on the good aspects (without denying the bad). I will definitly take a look at the IronChariots website. Thanks for the link.
Andrew,
I do see why and how people you call “outsiders” would be skeptical and critical. I don’t see that as a bad thing. I think it is wise to challenge everything until you are convinced one way or another.
I would like to address and challenge four of your assertions:
1. “…if you are to take that [the Bible] as historical evidence then you must take every holy book from every religion as the same.
This is a fallacy. By what law of reason do you conclude that if I take one book to be true, I must take all other books to be true? I reject this notion as totally unfounded.
2. “The Bible should be able to be verified outside of itself to be a proven historical record.”
The archeological findings supporting Biblical accounts (that were once laughed at by modern scholars) are abundant. These verify the reliability of the Bible as a historical record.
3. “You might cite historical evidence as to where they [other religions] came from and how they are wrong. I can do the same with your religion.”
I am not sure you really meant to say what you said here. I am very interested in your “historical evidence” on where Christianity came from, and your “historical evidence” of how it is wrong.
4. “The 12 disciples dying is not proof as there is no historical documentation that these men even existed.”
My dad’s great aunt had no children. She died a very long time ago. There is no documentation on her (historial or otherwise). Does that mean she never existed?
Jonathan
1. Well if you are going to say that the Bible is a historical document then why isn’t any other holy book? I don’t understand why the Bible gets special treatment. Please explain why you consider the Bible as historical evidence and not anything else?
2. What archaeological findings are you talking about. Can you link some?
3. Well there are a couple of things. The first and most important being that basically the story of Jesus was just borrowed from a couple dozen earlier myths from centuries before. Things like the virgin birth, dying on the cross, a star leading to his birth place, him living till 33 and even him being a carpenter are just some of the things take from other religions before. The second thing isI not so much proof that Christianity is wrong but rather the drawn out way of how it was popularized, and how it continues to branch out more and more from its roots muddling what it once it stood for. It’s honestly way too long to write out but just look up the history of Christianity and you will realize everything that has brought it to prominence is all politics and superstition. I really would need a couple of hours to write out enough to give a linear understanding to it.
4. Honestly if you don’t have proof of her existence than how are we to know? How do we know she’s not made up and you are using a fake aunt as an example. Of course if she did exist than birth records, eye witness testimonies from multiple people that knew her and pictures would be able to verify her (again, you cannot use the Bible as the only source. This is basically one source not multiple and the authors do not have any other original writings that can verify who they are and there are no other eye witness accounts to his existence that have been found) A claim that the 12 disciples existed, were tortured and died for what they believed in is not sufficient proof that they ever really existed.
Sorry but I have been down the last few days hit hard with the flu. To answer your questions:
1. The Bible is a reliable source of historical information. The Bible has yet to be proven wrong by other historical accounts or archaeological findings. Why should I give a “holy book” that says the earth is carried on the shoulders of a man-god the same credibility as the Bible? Why should I give the Book of Mormon (which is full of outright fabrications) the same credibility as the Bible? But you never answered my question to you: WHY do I HAVE TO regard all other books as historical if I regard one of them to be historical. I can’t find any reason or logic to support such an assertion.
2. I used to keep newspaper articles when they reported archaelogical findings that supported Biblical accounts. I remember one such article that reported the finding of the city of Jericho. Secular “scholars” had long mocked the Bible’s claim as to the location of Jericho, and no ruins had ever been found there. But this article reported that they finally found evidence of the city of Jericho right where the Bible said. Here you can find a laundry list of archaelogical findings supporting Biblical historical accounts:
http://www.equip.org/articles/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/
3. If you are talking about the myths of Horus, Mithras, Osiris and Isis, etc. you’ll be greatly disappointed to learn the truth. Those who claim there are similarities between those pre-christian era myths and the Biblical account of Jesus have really stretched their interpretations and outright lied in many cases. For example, Horus was never crucified. Those who want to claim Horus was crucified just like Jesus are outright lying. Show me the ancient text that says so. In fact, Horus never died. Here’s another link to get the true accounts of those myths (complete with source data):
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html
4. This makes my point exactly. She was a real person but there are no birth records (full blood Cherokee), school transcripts, or anything else. Everything I know about her I know through stories passed down verbally. But by Dorian’s standards, she never existed, period. If she can be real with documented evidence other than “hearsay,” so can someone else – including Jesus and His disciples.
Been reading some recent comments and thought I would add mine.
Personally, I don’t believe we have to prove that God exists, that Jesus lived and walked on this earth or that He is the Son of God. My FIL was a Christian pastor and he always maintained that if we have to provide proof then we are bringing God down to our level of thinking. The whole earth proves there is a Supreme Being. ,,The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth His handywork,..(Ps 19:1). Try changing the weather to suit your own needs. I believe the US govt tried in North Dakota about 35 or so years ago (tried seeding the clouds to give rain) and experienced a great disaster as a result. The Lord God is not to be mocked with.
To the Dorians and the Jonathans, a few responses to some of your comments.
The world is full of belief systems. All these beliefs have someone or something that is superior. Even heathens believe in a god of sorts. However, Christianity cannot be compared to any other belief system–I’m referring to Christianity of old, not the changed and watered-down versions of what many call Christianity today. True Christianity believes in one God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is the only belief system wherein God sends His Son to be manifest in the flesh to suffer the consequences of the wrath of God the Father against sin; wherein a crucified Mediator, Christ, pays for the sins of His people. Now, having said that, in the end of times, Satan will copy God and his son will be the Antichrist. All other belief systems only believe in one God (e.g. Judism) or many gods (e.g. Hindu). True Christianity is the only religion wherein our free will is in bondage–you are right Andrew ,,if God is real then free will cannot exist.,, First, God is real and secondly, free will no longer exists. In Paradise we had a free will and we chose for the enemy. God DID know that Adam would fall but He IS NOT the author of sin. Adam was created perfect and upright by God and he had the free will and ability to stay that way. You say that Christians say ,,you must open your heart and let Jesus in,, or something similar, and again you are right in that it is a contradiction. We can no longer open our hearts to let Jesus in as our ability to do so was lost in Paradise. Just like Christians say we are created in God’s image is misinterpreted. We WERE created in His image (knowledge, holiness and righteousness) but we lost that image in Paradise. You apparently have read the Bible before. Go into Genesis and read what happened right after Adam ate of the forbidden fruit. He lost his name. When God called him, He didn’t call him by name. He didn’t say ,,Adam where art thouÉ,, He said only ,,where art thou,, There is where we lost God’s image.
Not wishing to give you a sermon, but if God had not given His Son as Mediator, there would have been no way back to the Father’s heart. That’s then why Christians believe in Jesus Christ.
You question God’s morality. Again we are bringing Him down to our level. As stated by someone else, Jonathan maybe, God is not answerable to us, but we are answerable to Him. I said earlier, God is not the author of sin. No doubt there are many things in the Old Testament that we find difficult to understand with our understanding (I have certainly struggled with all the murdering, pillaging, slavery, rape that was done) but the one thing that does stand out is that very few non-Jewish people were included in His Divine work. The other thing that stands out is that the Old Testament is a foreshadowing of the New Testament. The New Testament fulfilled the promises given in the Old Testament. With the birth of Christ, all the ceremonial etc laws were eliminated. His crucifixion was also foretold, especially in Isaiah, but its also the reason why Christianity came to the Gentiles. His own people rejected Him and for that reason us Gentiles can be partakers of His Grace.
Just finally want to remark: we all are responsible individuals. Us, as devoted Christians, wish to teach others what is necessary in order to be saved because yes Dorian your soul is at stake. However, let us say that we are wrong and that there is no God and no damnation for the reprobates (no salvation for elect either), then we really have nothing to lose. We will all end up basically gone into nada, nothing. However, if we are right and there is a God Who will demand His image back and judge us according to our thoughts, words and deeds, then you have a lot to lose, i.e., a never dying soul.
Think about it.
Please look this site over…
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/exist.html
Hi Dorian,
Thanks for the link. The site you link to is deceptive and the authors are relying on the hope that readers will not discern that they do not date any of the manuscripts they quote. There is nothing on there that relates to any actual manuscript evidence. This is a perfect example of their tactics:
For one, a speech from antiquity is not evidence unless someone taped it! I am assuming that this not the case in 1 Century BC. And while we do have copies of speeches of Cicero, again, they are manuscripts that date to 1000 years after his death.
Secondly, notice the “preserved letters” of Cicero they reference have no date. They provide no link whatsoever to the manuscripts of these 900 letters. Why? Because the originals do not exist.
Again, if you can provide a link that references dated ancient manuscripts, I’ll be happy to look at them. I have already shown you links about Caesar and Cicero, that show actual dates of the extant manuscripts. And they are not from Christian sites (though your site seems to have a strong anti-Christian slant).
I’m I missing something? These are all contemporaries of Caesar. They all have the dates next to them and all wrote about him.
Sallust
Caius Sallust (86-34 BC) tribune, provincial governor and supporter of Caesar. His testimony is in a history “Bellum Catalinae”.
Nepos
Cornelius Nepos (c100-24): “Life of Atticus”.
Catullus
Gaius Valerius Catullus (c84-54 BC): “Carmina”.
Asinius Pollio
Gaius Asinius Pollio (76 BC-4 AD) was an ally of Caesar and founder of the first public library in Rome. He was a source used by Plutarch.
Virgil
Virgil (70BC-17AD): “Aeneid”.
Ovid
Ovidius Naso (43BC-17AD): “Metamorphoses”.
Near Contemporary Witnesses
Paterculus
Velleius Paterculus (c19 BC-32 AD): “Historiae Romanae”.
Lucan
Lucan (Marcus Annaeus Lucanus, 39-65 AD) followed the example of his grandfather, Seneca the Elder – a young contemporary of Caesar – who in later life wrote a history of Rome.
Lucan wrote his own Pharsalia approximately a century after the civil war it chronicles, using Seneca’s work as an eye-witness source.
Plutarch
Plutarch of Chaeronea (45-120 AD) was a Greek moralist, historian and biographer (and priest of Delphi). He wrote his Parallel Lives (matching Greek with Roman lives) during the reigns of Trajan and Hadrian. He describes in detail the life and assassination of Julius Caesar (as well as Marcus Brutus and Mark Antony).
Appian
Appian of Alexandria (c.95-165 AD): Civil Wars.
Suetonius
The most famous biographer of Caesar, Tranquillus Suetonius, wrote his Lives of the Twelve Caesars during the reign of emperor Hadrian (117-138).
Suetonius was in charge of the imperial archives and in this capacity, had access to some of the best possible information.
Hi Dorian,
What you are missing is that the dates they are providing are when these people lived, not the date of the manuscripts in which these alleged quotes were written (which is why I called the site deceptive – it’s trying to give the false impression that the actual original writings of these men is still in existence). All these quotes are taken from manuscripts written hundreds and hundreds of years after these people died and are attributed to them. That is my point. And this is after being translated from other languages. I already mentioned Appian as an example in my last comment. You will not find any original manuscripts, as in the actual writings from the hands of these men you quote, anywhere. They no longer exist. And the best out there are translations of copies written around 1,000 years after these men died. I hope that makes sense. Whereas in the case of Jesus Christ, the manuscript evidence is far, far superior. This is how historians, objectively evaluate historical evidence. The manuscripts regarding Jesus are from a much closer time to his life and there are thousands of them as opposed to the 10 manuscripts of the Gallic wars that date to 1,000 ears after the death of Caesar. So there is really no comparison from a proper evaluative standpoint.
So again, if you can point to evidence of actual manuscript evidence written during the life of Caesar, that still exists today, please provide the link. I’ll be glad to look at it.
Dorian – Oh and the same goes for all those busts of Caesar on that website you provided. They are not from his lifetime, but made centuries afterwards his death. Again, that is why the site is misleading, because it is not dating anything on there.
You know B&E, you keep saying that the proof of Jesus is far superior or at least on par but you have yet to show where you have come to that conclusion. Could you post links?
Hi Andrew,
The links are in the article. I also provide a link to see the actual images of some of the manuscripts themselves.
I am still waiting on your manuscript evidence of Alexander the Great written during his lifetime.
I have to look into that, because it makes no sense to me that they are basing all this history on what was written 1400 years after the fact. How did the people that wrote this manuscripts even know about something that happens so far back in the past.
Did they just make it up? There must have been original documents.
I also thought about something you mentioned, “Alexander The Great conquered the known world at 13 years of age”.
Mozart wrote his first symphony at the age of 4. Back in those days, people lived to be 30, therefore 13, is not that young. Specially if he didn’t do the fighting. He might have been one smart cookie.
Finally. Welcome to the world of antiquities research and textual criticism. Yes, if you just do the research you will see that the “hard core evidence” you think is out there, in the form of original writings from contemporaries of Caesar, does not exist. Historians are using documents written 1,000 years after his death to formulate the life and time of Caesar you may see on The History Channel. Yes, the evidence is that old. You still have not provided one link to any manuscript or reference to a manuscript from anywhere less than that.
I am glad you are starting to understand how historians do their work when it comes to figures from antiquity. And again, the copies they do have have been translated from a different language, so there is that same concern people have about the Bible (i.e., “it’s been translated so many times”) cropping up in secular academia and research.
So, in short – I will await your evidence.
I will continue to search the Caesar info, for my own benefit and I appreciate (if you are right) the new perspective that you’ve given me in relation to what has been taught to me from school. Again, if it’s true. But…
The stories of Caesar DO NOT contain any supernatural tales and they fit with everything else that was happening that time period. The same can be said for all other personalities of their respective time period. There is no reason to doubt them, but OF COURSE, we take them with a grain of salt! I actually don’t think that ANYONE is saying that these stories are 100% valid.
With that said, TWO WRONGS, DON’T MAKE A RIGHT.
The ISSUE that YOU are facing is simple, the GREATER the claim, the GREATER the proof must be.
Therefore, we DON’T need as much proof to believe that a governor did humanly possible things, but we DO need ABSOLUTE PROOF that a supernatural being came to this planet.
Specially when this God, who has the power to do so, hasn’t returned in over 2000 years. Even in the face of pain and suffering from the very people that he created, and caused by the hands of SO FEW. In addition, there are multiple of these Gods, who millions worship, just like you do to your god.
There is ABSOLUTELY nothing on this planet that shows that a supernatural being is responsible for anything. On the contrary, everything points to natural occurrences.
Therefore, your evidence, MUST be incontrovertible.
Which is NOT.
You do know Caesar was a Flamen Dialis (High Priest of Jupiter), right? He was also a Pontifex Maximus and an augur (a priest who determined the will of the gods by watching birds in flight). So dare I say, there were “supernatural tales” in his lifetime.
Again, I await your manuscript evidence.
Let me get this straight, I talk about injustice and you tell me that your god is going to punish me simply because i don’t believe.
That is EXACTLY the point i”m trying to make, that this religion makes no sense.
Why should this god punish me? Because I don’t believe a humans writing about some story? Oh, what a CRIME!!
Yes, I want him to stop the madmen and make it right and that would not include burning people for simply not believing hearsay.
I surely wouldn’t blame my family for not believing everything they read or hear. I specially wouldn’t burn them!
I have not killed anyone or hurt anyone to make me feel that I have to turn to a fictitious character that is going to forgive me. The only person I would ever ask for forgiveness is the person I harm. But since I haven’t, then I don’t have to.
If you are so guilty of whatever it is that you did, then that is YOUR problem, not mine. I would just say that, it is obvious that humans make mistakes, and therefore, the obvious answer is that you should ask that person for forgiveness and then forgive yourself because we ALL make mistakes.
No need for the invisible man in the sky.
He doesn’t? and then why are we arguing about this? If it wasn’t hearsay, there wouldn’t be an argument, it would be factual.
Why did your god visit these people back then and he can’t do it now? Is it the weather? I mean, what made those people so special that he appeared to them and not us? It’s all so convenient!
Maybe his doesn’t like a camera following him around? Come on! This entire thing Makes NO SENSE.
Did the people that were there write the bible? NO, other people wrote it for them. That by definition is HEARSAY.
I disagree. The problem is with YOUR definition of hearsay (which again, doesn’t mean its false). The Apostle John was there. He wrote about it. But you won’t accept his testimony. Other people copied his written account so that it could be shared with more people (the same reason we have printing presses today).
I own a lot of very old books. Most are no longer in print. But when a publisher reprints the non-fiction book, I guess we should all just toss the reprint in the trash because according to you, it hearsay.
Sorry, look it up in a dictionary. it’s in Black and White.
Besides, that’s not the issue, the issue is simple.
The GREATER the claim the GREATER the PROOF must be.
For most things, not many people care for absolute proof, since it won’t affect anyone any how, it’s just nice to know the history, etc.
But when you start talking about gods and the supernatural, you better have ABSOLUTE PROOF.
Which you don’t. Everything here was written 30+ years after what supposedly took place, by people who were NOT there when things supposedly took place. And with NO OTHER documents from the same time period mirroring the events.
The point still stands, this god is nowhere on this planet helping in any measurable way.
25K people die of hunger every single day.
A few people control the masses.
Every scientific research leads us to the understanding that we have evolved.
Every EVIDENCE shows us that this universe is 13.7 Billion years old.
It goes on and on and on….
So this god exists only in the minds of certain individuals who say that it does, but there are other individuals from other religions that ALSO say the same. Who should we trust? Why don’t this individuals go to somewhere where this occurrences can be recorded?
A god visits these people in antiquity and not now when it’s easier for all to see?
What made them so special?
Why all the mystery?
The questions can go on and on and on.
It just doesn’t make any sense, therefore, you need ABSOLUTE Proof of this, otherwise, you are asking me to believe in the supernatural without any real evidence. Solely on testimonies that could easily have been made up.
Not going to happen.
I did look it up. If you don’t believe the ancient manuscripts because you don’t have the absolute originals. Then you can’t believe the newspaper you read, or any modern day books you read. You’re simply reading reprints of the original author or reporter. But I am guessing you don’t have a problem with a reprint 2 years old, or 20 years, or even 200. But a reprint 2000 years old, well that makes all the difference (unless its a reprint of Cesaer’s writings and has no religious implications).
You say “EVIDENCE” shows us the earth is 13.7 billion years old. What “evidence”? That’s all theory! No one “knows” how old the earth is. Carbon dating makes a few assumptions. One of them being that the rate of carbon decay remained constant throughout time. That’s THEORY. Unsupported. There is no evidence. Same goes with evolution. When I was in school it was taught as the “theory of evolution.” That hasn’t changed. Its made up of a ton of assumptions, and modern day micro biology has proven the theory (Darwinian’s version) to be impossible.
The testimony of the saints could be “made up.” It could also be true. It’s funny how people want to blame God for all the bad things that happen at the hands of men. I could answer every one of your questions, but my answers would be based on the reasons God gives in His word – and I know you don’t accept that, so what’s the point.
You want ABSOLUTE proof of a supernatural event. Jesus said you “wouldn’t believe even if someone came back from the dead” and told you. God doesn’t answer to His creation. He came to earth one time to fullfill God’s law by living a perfect life. Then He died on the cross as though He was a sinner. God knows we cannot keep His law. So on the cross He accounted to us the perfection of Christ, and accounted to Christ our sins. So now, all we need to do is trust that God made that exchange and we are saved from the day of His vengance. You want proof, but God said “without faith it is impossible to please Him.”
But why do you get so upset during our discussion? The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons both come knocking on my door and try to convince me that I am going to hell. I know they’re wrong, so I invite them in and have a nice discussion about it. I am not offended by their belief that I am going to hell – it’s THEIR belief, not mine. It has no impact on me whatsoever. So if believe Christianity has no more merit than Santa Claus, why do you get so exercised about it?
Comparing a newspaper to a 2000 old document that claims of a supernatural occurrence is something I won’t even acknowledge. The differences are so vast, it’s incredible you actually make that connection.
Tell me something, this jesus was here and left the single most important book to a bunch of people that no one even knows who they are. Why didn’t he just write it himself?
Like I told the other guy with whom I’m talking about Caesar, what happened with Caesar has no relevance to humanity today. No one today goes around waisting their time with anything related to Caesar. No one is claiming that he had supernatural powers or that he was a God. The point of Caesar is that history would be full of wholes without him, but history would be exactly the same without jesus. Read my previous post.
Carbon dating is very accurate, I don’t know where you get this. It can be off, but BY VERY LITTLE!
The univers IS 13.7 billion years old! and if It’s OFF, it will be OFF by a fraction, the universe was NOT built in 7 days!
I believe SCIENTIST over some guys from 2000 ago. PERIOD!
I believe in scientist that created the microchip, the cat-scan, the TV, RADIO, engine, laser, etc. etc. etc. you know, those guys that have the Hubble Telescope in space flying at 28,000 miles above our planet. yeah, doest guys!
Like I said, why don’t you put your words where it counts. Next time you are sick, DON”T TAKE PENICILLIN, just start praying just like the millions that prayed and died prior to medicine.
I DARE YOU!
What is a saint? Someone who doesn’t have sex? WTH? This God creates sex and then tells everyone that is BAD? INSANE! MAKES NO SENSE = NONSENSE!
Blame god for what men do? NO we blame god for punishing the innocent for what the bad do. DON”T CONF– USE IT!
This god has the power to put away the bad and leave the good, but he doesn’t. I MAKES NO SENSE = NONSENSE
I WOULD ACCEPT ANY ANSWER THAT MAKES SENSE. EVERYTHING you are telling me makes NO SENSE.
Of course they wrote that “wouldn’t believe even if someone came back from the dead”, because they knew no one would. HELLO.
Why would this god come to earth ONE time? Did his car brake down? Does he not care for his creation? I mean, he is everywhere, yet, he can’t just appear and fix it all? Give me a break, everything you are saying MAKES NO SENSE = NONSENSE!
FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS.
I don’t get upset. I’m typing very calmly on my new iMac, you know, that wonder of the microchip… This puppy has 8 cores and can calculate billions of computations per second.
Ah technology.
What if He did write the book Himself. Now what? Your position wouldn’t change at all. So what’s the point to your question?
I’ll say this one last time and then drop it. Carbon dating is based on assumptions about the atmosphere millennia ago. We’re you around a million years ago? So then how can you possibly know what the atmosphere was like? I am amazed at the stuff you will swallow compared to the stuff you choke on. I don’t get it.
God never said sex was bad. Where do you get that from? God said sex with someone other than your spouse is bad. But sex itself isn’t bad.
You blame God for “punishing the innocent for what the bad do”? I can’t follow that sentence. Are you saying Hitler rises up and kills a million people and so God punishes those millions for what Hitler did? What are you saying?
You said this God has the power to put away the bad and leave the good. But He doesn’t. Who is good?Are you good? Maybe you are better than your neighbor, but God doesn’t judge the world based on your neighbor’s performance. He judges based on His own standard, a standard that demands perfection. Based on that standard, who is good? You? No one! So if God were to do what you want and “put away the bad,” you and I wouldn’t be having this conversation right now. Everyone would be put away. Instead, He allows us time to turn to Him while He is ready to show mercy. And in that time that He allows us, we continue to commit atrocities against each other – and blame Him. Have you ever sat down and read the Bible for yourself – rather than just repeating things you’ve heard other people say? Just curious.
Please read my other posts. That should settle it.
I don’t follow. You posted a lengthy article (please just provide links instead in the future) that still does not address the issue of manuscript evidence. It said things like “Caesar wrote a book” without admitting the truth – that the copy of the translation of a book said to be written by Caesar that is still in existence was written 1,000 years after his death. Until you address this issue, then we are not having an accurate conversation. The manuscript evidence for Jesus Christ starts in the century after his death. In the first 300 years, there are hundreds of manuscripts. Beyond that, thousands. And this is why it clearly trumps the TEN copies of the Gallic war manuscripts that are still in existence.
You still have not provided one link to any manuscript or reference to a dated manuscript by Caesar or any of his contemporaries.
Jesus’ contemporaries wrote the Gospels. The Apostle Paul, a witness to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, wrote 13 epistles in the Bible.
The Apostle Peter, a contemporary of Jesus Christ, wrote:
He witnessed Jesus transfigured in divine glory. He heard God proclaim from Heaven that Jesus was the Son of God. He saw the miracles. And he wrote this down. John Mark, author of the book of Mark, was Peter’s disciple and scribe for that Gospel. Again it is based entirely on eyewitness account.
The Apostle John, a contemporary of Jesus wrote:
He saw Jesus, witnessed his miracles and His resurrection. He specifically testifies to having seen and witnessed “the Word of Life”, Jesus Christ. And this was written in books, shortly after Jesus’ death and the manuscript copies still in existence are far superior to anything related to Caesar.
Yet you reject these testimonies while accepting anything anyone said about Caesar as 100% truth. And this after you have already admitted that you did not realize that the evidence for Caesar were copies from a millennium after his death. So is the issue about evidence, or just about Jesus Christ?
Which again is why I urge you to get to know Jesus Christ without prejudgment and a desire to disprove someone who obviously lived and on top of that, gave His life that you may have a chance to live forever.
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” – The Apostle John, eyewitness of Jesus Christ.
What relevance does his believes have on the subject?
Back then EVERYONE believed in the supernatural. That’s why they created Jesus.
But Caesar did NOT have supernatural power, i.e. walked on water, raised the dead, etc… That was my point.
I’m 23 and I still have no idea how people can believe in a text that is (supposedly) over 2000 years old and full of events that never actually happened.
Simple truth of the Bible (Old Testament and New) is that the stories before being written down were passed from mouth to mouth and like a game of Chinese Whispers the stories become more and more fantastical with every retelling.
It’s quite possible that Noah existed. It’s impossible for the world to have flooded and for Noah to have built a boat to carry two of EVERY animal. The story in it’s truest form is likely that Noah, as a farmer, facing a flood like the kind we occassionally see here in Australia, built a boat. Enough to carry himself, his family, and some of his livestock to save his livelihood. Now I can’t prove that’s what actually happened, but you can’t prove to me it did because your only source is a document that was written by an unknown source. No one can accurately prove who wrote the Bible and where the stories originated from. I mean you’d think something as simple as the discovery of the Dinosaurs having existed and living on this planet millions of years prior to Human existence would be enough to make an intelligent person question the validation of the religious document to which they base their beliefs.
As for Jesus, it’s possible that he existed, but the Jesus as seen in the Bible is a largely plagiarised character. Quite a lot of information surrounding Jesus Christ was falsified in order for the Christian Church to assimilate other religions and convert people to a Christian belief. How many people here know the Egyptian God Horus? Horus was worshipped three thousand years before Christ was said to have been born. Horus was born to a virgin mother (his father had been killed and so his mother fashioned his body parts to impregnate herself and create a divine son). Horus was visited by 3 kings, was baptised, had disciples, was crucified, buried and resurrected, etc. as well as having been born on December 25th. December 25th was also chosen as the date of Christ’s birth by the Church to coincide with a Pagan holiday. So again, when so much information about Christ is falsified by the Church and those who determined the creation of the Bible, why believe any of it all?
The biggest thing about the Bible is that it was written by men (clearly noticable by the way they make women subordinate to men). But the fact remains that men, human men, wrote it. Not Jesus. Not God. Men. Men who as history has shown us have used the words of their bible to instill fear, suppress and inspire hatred towards others. Look at the way society treats the Gays or the way they treated the Blacks. By Bible standards all life is created by God exactly as he intended, by that extension Blacks and Gays are the creation of God, and yet you have people who twist the words of your religious texts to wrongfully prosecute those who have done no wrong. It is about control and using fear of hell to control. 2000 years later and there are still people who buy into it because they’re afraid. No living person can tell you what happens after you die. It’s unknowable and to think you know if there is a heaven or hell is plain ignorance. To believe such a thing just because some unknown writer put it down in a book and people took it to be truth when there is no such evidence does not make it real.
If God exists, it is an uncomprehensible force that cannot be explained in the pages of a book. To think you could explain the creation of the universe or the forces behind it just breeds ignorant belief. Again, this is built out of fear. Fear of not knowing. Fear of uncertainty. People would rather grasp onto the belief of a fictional and man-made deity than to accept the idea that we honestly have no idea what, if anything, created the universe and that we have no overall purpose in life except to live and enjoy it.
The Bible is a largely falsified document that contains no believable proof of the existence of Christ or God. It is merely the religious text by which the Christians rose to power and used and twisted it’s words to instill fear into people who knew no better because 2000 years ago they didn’t know what we know now about evolution and the Big Bang. That life wasn’t created in the span of 7 days as the Bible would have you believe. That the Universe is Billions and Billions of years old and that life here on earth evolved over the span of millions of years.
Take the Bible as a Metaphorical Text if you will, but in no way should it be treated as a literal historical document.
Gaz,
So much of what you claim as though it were fact, is simply factually wrong. Your assertions about Horus are known fallacies. Here’s a link to learn the truth if you’re interested:
http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html
Have you ever read the Bible. It doesn’t appear so. Many of you’re claims about what it says are also wrong. You should read it for yourself before criticizing it based on what other people tell you it says.
The scriptures were NOT passed down by mouth. They were very painstakenly written down by scribes who treasured them so much that any error in copying and the whole scroll was burned and they started over. Every time they wrote the name of God they had to stop and first to go wash themselves. That’s how serious they were about the scripture record.
We “know” better now than they knew 2000 years ago? Clearly you don’t apply the same scrutiny to the THEORY of evolution that you do to the Bible. Modern mico biology has shown Darwinian evolution to be impossible.
Jonathan I just wanted to clear something up. A scientific theory is not the same as a theory in regular life. These kinds of theories are facts that are proven from constant testing and evaluation. The theory of gravity is another such example but you would never say gravity doesn’t exist. If you truly do not believe in evolution then you need to do more research on the subject.
The existance of evolution is not something can be debated logically. It is a fact that over thousands and millions of years animals change to adapt to their enviroment. There are very very few Christian scientists that are young earth supporters and for good reason. I do not know where you read or heard that evolution is impossible but I assure you that this is incorrect.
I am sorry to interject into your conversation again but I just wanted to make a few comments:
1. Gravity – Gravity is a law, not a theory. It has an analytic formula to understand the force at which a mass point in the universe attracts other mass.
2. Evolution as “scientific fact” – Darwinian Macro-Evolution is not scientific fact (of course this should not be confused with micro-evolution, which is indeed factual). It is not observable, has not been proven and is not an analytic. The simple fact is that there has been no transitional species from primate to human ever found. Hence the term “the missing link.” No ancient primate is a genetic match to a human. Obviously this means we are not their direct descendants. The theory postulates that somewhere in the geologic record said “ancestor” exists.
3. Alexander The Great – I am still waiting on your manuscript evidence proving Alexander the Great’s existence, written in his lifetime.
Andrew, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The “theory” of evolution is not the same as the “theory” of gravity. Gravity can be proven. It is testable and repeatable. Evolution is still just someone’s best guess. The theory of evolution is not a fact that has been verified by “constant testing and evaluation.” It is a myth. If you have “proof” of evolution, you are the very first person to obtain it. If you have make allowances, assumptions, speculations, then its all “theory,” no proof. Micro biology and the study of irreducible complexity and intelligent design have very effectively disproved darwinian evolution.
Jonathan, again you clearly do not understand evolution. I am positive you are using Christian rep resources for your claim but they are wrong. At the very least you are wrong in saying science disproves evolution as the vast majority of scientists accept it as fact.
I do not like the “it’s complex and therefor must have been created” argument. That is the same reasoning that got religion in the first place and I’m not talking just about Christianity either. Humans used to have sun gods and rain gods and all kinds of deities because we didn’t understand what caused the things around us. I hear arguments about how the human eyebis so complex that it proves there has to be a maker. That argument is unsupported and comes from ignorance alone. I don’t claim to know everything because I don’t but when I don’t know something I am willing to admit it rather than coming up with some kind of justification.
B&E just wanted to give you a few props. First of all I reread my comment and realized I came off as kind of dumb. I did not mean gravity is a theory but that it was in a lot of ways like evolution is now. You seemingly could not test gravity when the theory was first introduced, it is invisible and people had know way of knowing what caused things to fall (it could have been some kind of magnization as another example of what it could have been). However once people realized everything has the same rate of acceleration it could be tested and proved and thus the theory became law. Evolution is similar. Because there is seemingly no way to test it people have trouble accepting it. However evolution can be observed through fossils and such things as well as looking between closely related species of animals and the differences there are between them as well as many other things. If you want to tell me that dinosaurs walked the earth with humans then be my guest but you are wrong.
Secondly I just wanted to say that your argument for the validity of the Bible as ahistorical record is a good one and you are clearly well educated on the subject. I don’t believe it’s accuracy because I know God doesn’t exist but you proved your point very effectively as to why it has a claim to being counted as a historical source. I could argue a hundred other things with you if you want but I’ll concede this one to you.
Hey Dorian,
Thanks for your comments. It is a very rare and humble person who will concede a point in an internet religious debate. But just to clarify I was not just asserting that the Bible is an historical source, but that when it comes to Jesus Christ, it has far superior manuscript evidence when compared to other figures from antiquity. Nevertheless, I’m glad we can move on to other topics.
As for evolution and gravity, I see your point. But Newton was able to make the formula for universal gravity, so the scientific support for it is far greater than for evolution. The fossil record proves that primates existed but we still do not have a genetic link to human beings which is sorely needed to really give the theory legs.
Interesting fact about Newton: did you know he wrote twice as many papers and essays on the Bible than he did on science? He also said this:
Isn’t that interesting? Especially coming from someone with a pretty solid science background.
Andrew,
I think I am pretty well read when it comes to the unproven theory of evolution. I find it interesting that you would dismiss my sources as religious or Christian. Facts are facts, regardless of the source. Let the theory of evolution stand or fall on its own merits.
The fact is that the fossil record as a whole is very disappointing to those who want to hitch their wagon to evolution. Two examples:
1) You’ve heard of the Cambrian Explosion, where the basic animal groups appear all at once and without any evidence of evolutionary transitional ancestors? How about…
2) Evidence for evolutionary transition is completely ABSENT when you look at the fossil record that is most complete – among marine invertebrates! This fossil record is so complete that there is no room for interpretation, speculation and guesswork. So instead of using it, evolution supporters make the conscience choice to turn to the very thin and incomplete vertebrate fossil record so they CAN “interpret” evolution into all the missing pieces. This passes as “science”? Really? Sorry but that just doesn’t pass the “Honesty test” as far as I am concerned. Another reason I don’t have Dorian’s blind faith in scientists.
My argument is NOT “its complex, therefore it must have been created.” I am not saying anything at all about creation. I am arguing evolution on its own merits. You can believe in creation if you like, or hold to some other theory to explain the origins of man. It doesn’t matter to me. All I am saying is the theory of evolution is pure bunk.
Let me explain what I mean by irreducible complexity found in microbiology absolutely disproves Darwinian evolution. Molecular mechanisms are irreducibly complex. They are made up of many parts that interact in complex ways, and all the parts need to work together. Any single part has no useful purpose unless all the other parts are also present. Because of this, there is absolutely no pathway of functional intermediate stages by which a Darwinian process could build such a system step by tiny step.
Just one example is the molecular mechanism for vision. The eyeball COULD NOT HAVE EVOLVED into existence: When light first strikes the retina a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal. The change in the shape of the retinal molecule forces a change in the shape of the protein, rhodopsin, to which the retina is tightly bound. The protein’s metamorphosis then alters its behavior. Now called a metarhodopsin II, the protein sticks to another protein called transducin. Before bumping into metarhodopsin II, transducin had tightly bound a small molecule called GDP. But when transducin interacts with metarhodopsin II, the GDP falls off and a molecule called GTP binds to transducin.
Each molecule has no purpose or function without the other molecules. Darwinian evolution requires any one of these molecules to be killed off as “useless” without all the others. Thus, according to the “theory of evolution” no one should be able to see.
You don’t have to believe in creation or God, but to believe in evolution (still a theory) seems quite foolish.
Jonathan,
Sorry it’s taken me a while to respond. Work has been extremely hectic and seems all I’ve dne is work and sleep the past few days. Back to our conversation I want to say it again, I don’t think you have a good understanding of what evolution is. Your comment nay increases my belief that you go t purely Christian sources for your information. Evolution does not eliminate useless body parts, at the least not immediately. As long as it is not harmful to the species it can retain this part for millions of years.
Another thing I want to bring up is your argument of irreducible complexity. This is not a well founded argument and is largely rejected by the scientific community. Doctor Ken Miller is a theist biologist that warns Christians that this argument is not valid and is used to further push the Christian agenda. He feels that these arguments against scientific fact, only hurt the credibility of Christians as a whole. As I said before, scientists that actually know about the subject, Christian or not, accept evolution as fact.
Again I strongly recommend that you use resources besides your Christian ones to learn more about science because you are getting incorrect information. You mentioned that facts are facts which is something we agree on but what you have got to realize that they can be represented in an incorrect way for some reason. It should worry you that the vast majority of experts on this subject are against you.
B&E
Like with Jonathan I don’t think you understand enough about the subject to argue it. Read this link that will help explain your doubts. http://www.science20.com/between_death_and_data/missing_link_fallacy-75791
Andrew,
You can name scientists who have convinced you to believe the way you do. I can name scientists who have confirmed in me what I already believed. If you can name more scientists than I can, does that make you right? You choose which ones you believe, and I do the same. But no matter how many times you say it, evolution has always been, and still is a THEORY. There is no proof to make it a fact. And, the scientific evidence is contrary to the theory – taken as a whole. You didn’t even address that. Instead, you attacked my sources. I won’t get drawn into and distracted by a debate about sources. It’s a common ploy by those who can’t argue scientific fact. Discredit the source and then you don’t have to answer the tough questions about scientific evidence that refutes your position. Still, I have read alot of material, even some by non-Christian scientists, and I’ve never heard one of them dogmatically pronounce evolution as FACT. They all strongly suggest that evolution is the most plausible answer to the origins of man, but they all stop short of saying it is a proven fact (even though they make fun of those who challenge the “theory).
Hi Andrew,
1. Evolution – Your article, which I read, does not answer my point. If we have evolved from a primate, name it. Who is our ancestor? It’s a hole that science cannot address because thanks to DNA testing technology, we now know that these fossilized remains are not our genetic match.
Here are some examples of what I mean below. DNA testing has blown huge holes in evolutionary theory. If you are the descendant from someone or something, then you would have its DNA. Yet for all of our supposed “ancestors” there are no matches. And notice my articles are NON-CHRISTIAN sources.
Prehistoric Primate Neanderthal not our genetic ancestor. (source)
Neanderthals not even close relative of the human species. (source)
More primate “ancestors” debunked. (source)
So if you have some credible evidence of a prehistoric primate that is our genetic ancestor, please provide the link.
2. Jesus’ Existence – I am still waiting on the litany of manuscript evidence of Alexander the Great, from his lifetime, you claimed to be providing. What have you found thus far?
oh no u cant believe that we evolved from apes. but yet we are suppose to believe that “god” created the universe and everything in it?
Do you actually believe that a Supernatural GOD, would write on 2000 year old paper?
Come on… You have to think bro. A GOD would not even bother writing, he would simply make it so. He would make it into whatever he would want and that wouldn’t be some easily destroyed media as paper.
You are twisting reality! Do you actually want me to believe that scientist don’t know what they are talking about and that you do? Give me a break! You are in no position to argue with science, you are NO a scientist.
Sex is immediately implied as bad the moment you place a name as “Saint” to someone who doesn’t do it. Because immediately, the ones who do are not saints, and the opposite of saint is?
Well, lets see. If someone broke into your house and you had the power to stop them, and you didn’t, who is to blame? The perpetrator or both?
I don’t understand how you don’t understand that.
Isn’t that what you all say? That god knows you better than yourself? Then yes, he would EASILY separate the good from the bad.
No, the bad commit atrocities, PLEASE keep me out of your warped thinking.
Your conclusions and interpretations of what I write really befuddles me. You really have a hard time comprehending what I am saying – or maybe I am just doing a poor job of writing what I mean to say. Either way, we are not communicating, and this discussion is going nowhere. So I’ll just try to clarify my last post, then I’ll move on.
1. I never said God WOULD write on 2000 year old paper. You asked why He didn’t do that instead of having a bunch of unknowns write the story. I simply stated a hypothetical: Let’s imagine God did do it differently. Let’s imagine He did write it Himself just as you suggest. So what? Big deal! It wouldn’t change your view one bit. So why did you even ask the question?
2. So science is your god. You actually believe scientists (mere humans) are never wrong? I find that particularly laughable especially in light of the fact that in so many disciplines you can find scientists who disagree with each other. So what do you do in situations like that? Is science right and wrong at the same time? Not a very trustworthy god.
3. I never said Saints don’t have sex. What in the world are you talking about?
4. YOU say the “bad” are the people who commit atrocities. God says we are ALL bad. We all commit atrocities against God. You may disgree with God, but that changes nothing. Do you hate or have you ever hated anyone? God considers that to be murder. Did you ever have sexual fantasies about a person who is not your spouse? God considers that adultery or fornication. It’s not just about what you do physically, its about how you think at your core. If you are not perfect – without sin – then you (and I and everyone else) are an offense to God. So if God prevented the bad people from breaking into the house (your scenario) He would have to eliminate all people. God can’t “easily separate the good from the bad” because He declares all of us to be bad. There is no good to separate. I know you don’t believe that. But God makes the rules and He does not answer to you.
I understood completely, but I don’t know why you don’t get my point.
I WOULD believe that a god wrote it if it appeared to come from a god. Paper is NOT something that a god would use. That is the point.
If a god did write it, it would have been obvious to all that it came from a supernatural being, and we wouldn’t be having this discussion. The simple fact that we are having this discussion, clearly states that the writer didn’t do his job effectively. The division EVEN within Religions is astonishing to say the least.
Just think of an iPhone, to a god, that would be a TOY, yet he left the most important book in the UNIVERSE in paper! NO FN WAY. Forget about it.
Señor, scientist debate on subject as they brain storm. There is NO debate on soooooooooo many things. Think about putting a satellite in orbit, for Pete’s sake! How can you be so blind?? The accomplishments that scientists have gone thru is Astonishing! Please open your eyes! Millions of people used to die of deceases that are NOW GONE! People use to pray and DIE. Now they take a pill and LIVE.
Think of the computing power that we now have and will have! In 20 years we will have the power of the human mind in one $1k computer and in 30 we will have the power of ALL humans in one single computer! How can you simply put that to the side as if it didn’t exist?
We are humans, and we are still evolving and improving. WE NEVER SAID WE WERE PERFECT. IT IS YOU THAT SAY THAT ABOUT YOUR GOD.
Yes you did, you mentioned saints and holiness. That is the exact opposite of humanity and all it’s “sins”. You mentioned salvation and all that stuff, which implies that we are sinners, and that sex is bad. It’s all implied.
You could NOT have made yourself and your doctrines any clearer. EVERYTHING you mention in that paragraph shows that IMMENSE social problems that you and your religion have.
Your god can’t tell the difference between someone braking in and killing someone and someone fantasizing about sex? WOW!
I am a FREE man! I fantasize what ever I want. YOUR religion CREATED this “SINS” to control you. SEX is natural! This is going back to your point #3! This is what I’m talking about! How can your god create sex and then deny it? That is INSANE! That’s why priests molest kids! Because they are trying to go against a NATURAL act!
I am good to those who are good to me. Nothing less, nothing more.
Please look at your own bible and see the atrocities that your god supposedly committed against CHILDREN! CHILDREN ARE INNOCENT. Until the age of 6, you don’t even have a personality! Let alone know what is good or bad! A child just doesn’t have the BRAIN CAPACITY!
So your god knows HATE, it KILLS, it DESTROYS! What good is your GOD?
If he can do ANYTHING why can’t he separate the good from the bad? This is in complete contradiction to what you believe.
Lastly, I am NOT a bad person! You can treat yourself in a negative way as you wish, you are free to do so.
YOU ARE THAT WHICH YOU MAKE YOURSELF BELIVE YOU ARE.
YOUR GOD DOES NOT EXIST AND YOU ARE DESTROYING YOURSELF!
Dorian,
Jonathan is making sense.You are just not listening. you keep going back to your petty reasons. You expect your questions to be addressed but you yourself do not respond to the argument in a sensible manner.
Everything you bring up to discredit the Gospels and the bible is not supported and just all hearsay. The age old excuses presented by athiests. Even with the evidence presented to you, you remain to be ignorant.
As the saying goes “for one who has no faith no evidence is possible”.
I don’t think so. You can believe whatever you want.
A god that is merciful but sends people to hell, is not a merciful god.
I don’t know what you guys are smoking, but get off of it.
Petty reason? What petty reasons?
My questions are being addressed? How? With God loves you? Yeah, really? Pretty funny!
What exactly from what I’m saying is Hearsay?
I don’t think so.
and by the way, who are you to say that he is right?
the word christ or christian did not exsist some say before 1892 some say 1630. either way there was no alphabet for any of the names of the bible or book of mormon strike two. we do not translate names the sound would stay the same. if there was no alphabet with the symbols to make the sound. there were no vowels, no letters or sounds Y,W,H, or J. strike three. there is no religion in europe or asia as of the year 2000. it violates public school. the words belief, and faith . are not supported with fact. it is called working against the people (treasion). and they die. the paper PH at 4.7 rather then 7.4 makes these books unacceptable for humans to touch. no other countty will ever allow them in thier county. the chineese told us sept 12 1954. what is the problem with the uneducated religious person. they are WRONG.
So what you are saying, is that I should leave my job, go to a country where I have no one and help people I don’t even know.
and I should do that, while this God has ALL THE POWER IN THE UNIVERSE to solve EVERY single problem we have by simply making it his will. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense!
Additionally, THOUSANDS of volunteers go to this countries risking their lives! and we don’t do enough? It is your God that doesn’t DO ANYTHING!
You are not making any sense.
I laugh whenever i see the comment well if god is merciful why would he send people to hell??i think people believe deep down that they dont want to go to hell.He sent his only son to bridge the gap between him and us.all we can do is tell people about it and if they don’t believe that is their choice.he cannot make people love him.it is to late one second after you die.my mother is a woman of GOD and I have seen miracles and she has had visions.I dont care if people believe me or not.I read the bible and I feel his love.Even before Darwin died he admitted he could not prove any of his theory.The big bang theory can fly right out of the door.you can’t get something out of nothing.Do you really believe that we are just here by chance and there is no purpose to life??How could I just be cured of my addiction by prayer and nothing else?I asked GOD to help me and take it from me?I just stopped and I have no urges to drink or anything.I know when I die where i will go.If people want to continually bash christians and the bible that is your choice and your destiny.
Just because Darwin can’t prove his theories does not mean they can not be proven. That is a common misconception that the Big Bang is “something out of nothing” as in fact it has been tested to be possible for something to appear through fluctuations within a vacuum that is very well possible of being the “something that created the Big Bang”. Unlike many people I do not have to have a predetermined purpose in my life to find it worth living, I just know how to create my own and it makes it even better for me. You can go on believing what you want, but I hope you don’t mind if I correct the areas you are mistaken in by facts.
*sings “The Great Space Vacuum” to the tune of “The Great Space Coaster”*
It’s the Great Space Vacuum. Who needs God?
On the Great Space Vacuum. It explodes!
A big-bang ride of fantasy
To a place where facts are fast and free
With new math and new rules to see
It blows into a galaxy
It’s the Great Space Vacuum. Oh-oh-oh
It’s the Great Space Vacuum. Watch it blow!….
Hi Beginningandend!
I was debating with someone about this very same topic. I told the guy that the majority of modern historians argue for Jesus’ existence. However, his rebuttal was that there many historians likewise who dispute this claim. Being an intelligent and staunch supporter of his existence, I would like aid in discerning the credibility and whether they are appropriate of these people who disputes god’s existence and their statements. I’m sorry if it’s quite a few.
*But even if it could be proved that John’s Gospel had been the first of the four to be written down, there would still be considerable confusion as to who “John” was. For the various styles of the New Testament texts ascribed to John- The Gospel, the letters, and the Book of Revelations– are each so different in their style that it is extremely unlikely that they had been written by one person.
-John Romer, archeologist & Bible scholar (Testament)
*It was not until the third century that Jesus’ cross of execution became a common symbol of the Christian faith.
-John Romer, archeologist & Bible scholar (Testament)
*What one believes and what one can demonstrate historically are usually two different things.
-Robert J. Miller, Bible scholar, (Bible Review, December 1993, Vol. IX, Number 6, p. 9)
*The question must also be raised as to whether we have the actual words of Jesus in any Gospel.
-Bishop John Shelby Spong
*All four gospels are anonymous texts. The familiar attributions of the Gospels to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John come from the mid-second century and later and we have no good historical reason to accept these attributions.
-Steve Mason, professor of classics, history and religious studies at York University in Toronto (Bible Review, Feb. 2000, p. 36)
*Far from being an intimate of an intimate of Jesus, Mark wrote at the forth remove from Jesus.
-Randel McCraw Helms (Who Wrote the Gospels?)
*Mark himself clearly did not know any eyewitnesses of Jesus.
-Randel McCraw Helms (Who Wrote the Gospels?)
*The gospels are so anonymous that their titles, all second-century guesses, are all four wrong.
-Randel McCraw Helms (Who Wrote the Gospels?)
*Many people– then and now– have assumed that these letters [of Paul] are genuine, and five of them were in fact incorporated into the New Testament as “letters of Paul.” Even today, scholars dispute which are authentic and which are not. Most scholars, however, agree that Paul actually wrote only eight of the thirteen “Pauline” letters now included in the New Testament. collection: Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, and Philemon. Virtually all scholars agree that Paul himself did not write 1 or 2 Timothy or Titus– letters written in a style different from Paul’s and reflecting situations and viewpoints in a style different from those in Paul’s own letters. About the authorship of Ephesias, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians, debate continues; but the majority of scholars include these, too, among the “deutero-Pauline”– literally, secondarily Pauline– letters.”
-Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton University, (Adam, Eve, and the Serpent)
*It is only in comparatively modern times that the possibility was considered that Jesus does not belong to history at all.
-J.M. Robertson (Pagan Christs)
*The world has been for a long time engaged in writing lives of Jesus… The library of such books has grown since then. But when we come to examine them, one startling fact confronts us: all of these books relate to a personage concerning whom there does not exist a single scrap of contemporary information — not one! By accepted tradition he was born in the reign of Augustus, the great literary age of the nation of which he was a subject. In the Augustan age historians flourished; poets, orators, critics and travelers abounded. Yet not one mentions the name of Jesus Christ, much less any incident in his life.
-Moncure D. Conway [1832 – 1907] (Modern Thought)
*”We have to accept somewhat looser standards. In the legal profession, to convict the defendant of a crime, you need proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In civil cases, a preponderance of the evidence is sufficient. When dealing with the Bible or any ancient source, we have to loosen up a little; otherwise, we can’t really say anything.”
-David Noel Freedman (in Bible Review magazine, Dec. 1993, p.34)
*Elaine Pagels writes: “Although the gospels of the New Testament– like those discovered at Nag Hammadi– are attributed to Jesus’ followers, no one knows who actually wrote any of them.” [Pagels, 1995]
Not only do we not know who wrote them, consider that none of the Gospels existed during the alleged life of Jesus, nor do the unknown authors make the claim to have met an earthly Jesus. Add to this that none of the original gospel manuscripts exist; we only have copies of copies.
The consensus of many biblical historians put the dating of the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, at sometime after 70 C.E., and the last Gospel, John after 90 C.E. [Pagels, 1995; Helms]. This would make it some 40 years after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus that we have any Gospel writings that mention him! Elaine Pagels writes that “the first Christian gospel was probably written during the last year of the war, or the year it ended. Where it was written and by whom we do not know; the work is anonymous, although tradition attributes it to Mark…” [Pagels, 1995]
*The most “authoritative” accounts of a historical Jesus come from the four canonical Gospels of the Bible. Note that these Gospels did not come into the Bible as original and authoritative from the authors themselves, but rather from the influence of early church fathers, especially the most influential of them all: Irenaeus of Lyon who lived in the middle of the second century. Many heretical gospels existed by that time, but Irenaeus considered only some of them for mystical reasons. He claimed only four in number; according to Romer, “like the four zones of the world, the four winds, the four divisions of man’s estate, and the four forms of the first living creatures– the lion of Mark, the calf of Luke, the man of Matthew, the eagle of John (see Against the Heresies). The four gospels then became Church cannon for the orthodox faith. Most of the other claimed gospel writings were burned, destroyed, or lost.” [Romer]
Hi Beginning and End,
I just wanted to thank you for this article (and also the one addressing the question of whether Jesus was a copy of pagan gods). This article was an amazing read, especially after having been told that there is NO historical evidence of Jesus and that He is only mentioned in the Gospels. I have also read through most of the comments here, and I must say I am very impressed with your vast knowledge of ancient history and ability to provide references, as well as the high level of professionalism and courtesy you have employed while deftly responding to all the counter-arguments presented. Throughout all these comments it has been quite interesting to note how you have not argued outside of the evidence, and that your tone has remained professional and courteous throughout, while opponents have called their credibilty into question by resorting to profanity, name-calling, and shouting (excessive use of caps and exclamations). It would be clear to me who is the superior debater even if I didn’t already share your beliefs. Well done; keep up the good work; and God bless!
More than anything, I guess I was most impressed by the fact that all these authors wrote in a somewhat antiquated English while adding ‘us’ to everything…Christus, Pontius Pilutus… But seriously, if Jesus was talked about, is there any reason to believe he was really anything more than just a local preacher like say Pat Robertson or Terry Jones…or even Elmer Gantry? And are we supposed to ignore all the similarities between Jesus and any number of prior religious figures that came before? The whole story surrounding Jesus reminds me of Monty Python’s ‘Life of Brian’.
i believe in fairies ,if you can prove to me that fairies dont exist ,by using your logic i’ll prove that god dosnt exist
http://www.livius.org/aj-al/alexander/alexander_z1.html
Nice quote, but
(1) I didn’t dispute whether or not Jesus lived, I suggested he may not have, was a composite, or his life was exaggerated (in the same fashion as G. Washington or Davy Crockett”
(2) and I offered no logic, however, proving non-existence is in of itself ‘illogical’.
the contemporary accounts of Alexander the Great are no longer extant, so historians depend on others’ representations of and references to these accounts as well as others’ own post-Alexander accounts.
Historians have criteria (though they don’t all use the same) for assessing the reliability of these accounts. For example, (1) if multiple authors all say the same thing; (2) if the independence and objectivity of the authors can be reasonably assumed (i.e. there’s no conflict of interest in the author’s account), (3) if the author, who is otherwise interested in presenting the subject (e.g. a gospel writer presenting Jesus) in a favourable light includes material that is embarrassing or unfavourable for the subject (e.g. Jesus cursing the fig tree; Jesus’ cry of despair from the Cross, etc.), (4) if the information presented is consistent with what we know of the context and times in which the subject lived. And there are others.
Accounts of the lives of famous figures in antiquity are often compromised by the fact that the writers had to please their patrons or promote their own causes. They also wrote for particular audiences, not for the general public, and would emphasise things, whether fact or hearsay, about their subject that would be of interest to their audience. For example, Luke wrote for a Hellenized audience and emphasised in his account of Jesus’s mission the things that would appeal to this audience of gentiles. Matthew, on the other hand, wrote for a Jewish Christian community under sustained attack from the rabbis (pharisees) of post- AD70 (destruction of Jerusalem), so he emphasised Jesus’s continuity with the Mosaic law.
There’s probably good reason to accept the broad outlines, at least, of Alexander’s life because his armies left such a large footprint in Central Asia and Northern India. The Greeks (Yavanas = Ionians) had quite an influence in the region. In fact, it was their penchant for imagery that changed the visual representations of the Buddha from symbols like the wheel and the lotus to the Buddha images we are familiar with now.
The problem with the references to Jesus in Josephus, Pliny the Younger, etc. are that they are either unreliable as assessed by the criteria, or acknowledged to be interpolations, or questioned on other grounds. Scholars don’t agree on the degree of reliability to be granted these references. Also Paul, whose life was so radically changed by a vision of “Christ”, spoke hardly at all about the man Jesus and appeared to have virtually no interest in Jesus as an historical person.
It’s also perhaps of interest that there are no extant contemporary texts that refer to the life of Muhammad. All the biographies of the Prophet are based on the one written by Ibn Ishaq in the 8th century, which is also not extant, but is known by a heavily edited version written by Ibn Hisham a century later.
Hi Neville,
Thanks for your comments. With respect your link on Alexander the Great, someone already presented it and I provided an answer. So I did not respond to your link because I do not like to repeat lengthy responses.
As for your other critique, you said:
You present no evidence of this so I am not sure what to comment on. If you can show where historians have questions the authenticity of writings by Josephus, Pliny, Tacitus, Julius Africanus, Vernal, etc., just provide the links. Then we can have a substantive discussion. Just saying “your sources are unreliable according to scholars” with no evidence and no reason for their disagreement, does not really allow a discussion to take place. Especially considering, this article uses sources that are not Christian and in some cases were authored by men who despised and persecuted Christians (and thus they have absolutely no reason to “prove” anything about the faith).
So if you have more to provide, I will gladly look at it.
so my facts are so confusing to the uneducated they cant respond.
What exactly was wrong with my post? and to label it “trolling”, when I was the one that received the email to begin with, is pretty out of place.
Additionally, as I posted above, I somehow caught a glimpse at my post and it contained things I DID NOT TYPE.
So you should figure that one out.
Thanks, Dorian
Hi Dorian,
I am referring to the profanity-laced tirades that were posted. Are you saying that you did not write them? Specifically the one that says:
This post was filled with profanity and personal attacks. If those weren’t your words, let me know. Thanks.
Those where, but there were things about pigs and other things that I DID NOT WRITE. and isn’t it ironic that on your website you are calling actors and actresses part of satan, when all they are doing is acting?
Yet here you are judging my writing!
Seriously! You are starting to sound like a muslim!
i have noticed after what i wrote ,i got no rebuttle ,is this because im right and you cant argue the point ,or are you just a typical god thumper that when faced with the truth or your point has been shot down in flames ,you ignore it and and say god is good god is all powerful ,,your not differant from that other idiotic religion ,allar achba ….
…nev…
The argument that there are thousands of manuscripts attesting to the historical existence of Jesus Christ is deeply misleading, as it leads the uninformed reader to suppose that they are independent of one another, In fact they are all copies (altered in some instances) of the same manuscript. You argument is the same as if I were to argue that the events depicted in the Lord of the Rings are true because there are thousands of copies of the book and DVD in print.
In fact, there are solid biblical reasons to suppose that there was a rabbi called Jesus of Nazareth. Namely, the obvious falsification of the story of the nativity and the passage in which the apostle, Peter, following the crucifixion, runs to the empty tomb.
In the first instance, there is no evidence of the census depicted in the bible. It is true that the Romans conducted censuses but there is no record outside of the bible of them ever having asked people to return to their ancestral cities. If it had happened, and people had, en masse, been compelled to return to the place of their ancestors a thousand years previously, it would have been recorded elsewhere. The bible also gets the date wrong of the great census held under Quirinius.
Moreover, we can reasonably assert that it did not happen as the idea makes no sense. The Romans were master administrators and there is no reason for such an eccentric requirement. I’m a citizen of modern day Great Britain -the equivalent would be for the British Government to conduct a census demanding that I return to the town in France from whence my father’s line came in 1066.
These would be reasons enough to dismiss the idea, but we can also reasonably infer why the authors of the bible (under the name Luke) included it: in order to have Jesus born in Bethlehem, thereby making him part of the Davidic lineage and so fulfilling the prophecy of Nathan.
In sum then, the keystone of the nativity story is not attested in any other source, has no historical precedent or sequel, makes no internal sense, and has a clear political/theological motivation. For these reasons, we can dismiss it as fable.
The story of Peter returning to the tomb is absent from the oldest and best witnesses of the bible and is written in a different style to the rest of Mark. That makes its addition at a later date a reasonable supposition. This is lent further weight because, again, we can infer a clear purpose to the addition -to give the story of the resurrection a validity that it would have lacked if the only witnesses had been, using the regrettable standards of the time, ‘hysterical’, ‘unreliable’ women. Paul is added to give the story weight.
So, there we have two examples of fabrication -fairly obvious ones at that. But, perversely, they both attest to the historical existence of *someone* called Jesus (a man, not a God). This is because, if Jesus had been fabricated entirely, the bible would simply have had him born in Bethlehem, the City of David, without all the contrivance. Likewise, if Jesus were entirely fictional, his resurrection would never had been attended first by witnesses who would have been considered so unreliable -it would have been seen by ‘sober’, ‘reliable’, ‘credible’ *men* in the first instance.
So we can see that there was someone called Jesus. Not divine but certainly a man.
Hi David,
Thanks very much for your comments. You raise some interesting points so I will address them in short order:
1. Manuscripts – Your point here confuses me. You say the manuscripts of the New testament are all “interdependent” and are all copies of the same document. I am not sure where you find evidence of this. If you look at the links to the manuscripts in the article, there is nothing that indicates, they are copies of one specific manuscript. Some of them are second century, some of them are third century and some of them are 4th century. Furthermore, even if they were copying one primary text, why would that be bad? That in itself does not somehow negate their existence. So I really fail to see the point you are making here or any support for it.
2. The Census in Luke 2 – Here is the passage you are referring to:
It has often been stated that this passage somehow poses a problem for the Bible because the taxing down by Cyrenius was not done until 6 AD and thus not in line with the timing of the Bible. Also, the argument says there was no requirement to return to your native land. So the Bible is “wrong” or a “fabrication” to use your term. This argument is incorrect for several reasons:
1. Cyrenius As Governor of Syria – Cyrenius was governor of Syria twice. This is confifmed in Robery Boyd’s “Tells, Tombs and Treasures.” This confirms Roman history as we know that Cyrenius led a military action against the Homonadensians (in Syria) during the period between 12 and 2 B.C. Tacitus in his Annals (cited above), records this. Additionally, the term Luke uses to describe Cyrenius in Greek is “hegemon”, which means “leader” and not an official position like governor (“legatus”). So the Bible text, in its original language even acknowledges Cyrenius’ actual role, before he was formally appointed governor years later by Augustus.
2. The Roman Census – And Augustus (who was in power at that time) himself notes in his Res Gestae (The Deeds of Augustus) that he ordered three wide-spread censuses of Roman citizens, one in 28B.C., one in 8 B.C. and one in 14 A.D. And there were several other local census taken.
During one of the censuses, Augustus also required an oath of allegiance be made. In Chapter 34 of Res Gestae Augustus also notes, “When I administered my thirteenth consulate (2 B.C.E.), the senate and Equestrian order and Roman people all called me father of the country, and voted that the same be inscribed in the vestibule of my temple” The historian Josephus also records this census being one accompanied by an oath to Caesar. Orosius, a fifth century Christian, links this registration with the birth of Jesus saying that “all of the peoples of the great nations were to take an oath.”
So from Augustus’ own writings, we know that there was a census in 8 BC and 2BC. And considering that we know that Cyrenius was “hegemon” over Syria from 12BC to 2 BC, it totally lines up with the Biblical account. So Luke was absolutely correct. There was a census and taxing by Ceasar at the time Cyrenius was leading Syria.
3. Luke acknowledges more than one census — If you notice in verse 2 above, Luke writes: “And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.” The phrase “first made” in its Greek meaning presupposes that a later event took place. And in this case there was a later taxing in 6 AD. And Luke records the second taxing/census as well in the book of Acts: “After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.” (Acts 5:37). This Judas of Galille was no minor figure in Jewish history. He started his own cult and led a major rebellion against the Roman empire challenging people not to pay the taxes required by the Roman census. And when did he do this? In 6 AD. You can find confirmation of this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judas_of_Galilee
So once again, Luke properly acknowledges that the census at Jesus’ birth was prior to the 6AD census. And he acknowledges the 6AD census by linking into the revolt against that tax led by Judas of Galilee.
3. The requirement to go to your native hometown – Now on this point you are correct. The census enrollment was done in the town where a person lived, not in the town of their ancestors. However, Herod, was who overseeing Judea at the time of Christ’s birth, made his own requirement that anyone from the Jewish tribe of Judah return to Bethlehem during the census. Why would he do this? Because he was paranoid about the prophesied birth of the Messiah who from the Old Testament was prophesied to be born of the tribe of Judah in the city of David (Bethlehem). His paranoia is recorded in Scripture:
Luke confirms this by writing: ” And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. 4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)” – Luke 2:3-4.
Luke writes that every Roman subject went to their home city. Nazareth was Joseph’s home city. But he did not go there. Which is why in verse 4 Luke specicially states that Joseph went to Bethlehem. Why? Because he was of the tribe of Judah, the one tribe required to do this.
So in conclusion, there were indeed 2 censuses mentioned in the Gospels and Jesus was born at the time of the prior one when Cyrenius was leading Syria under Augustus’ orders. So there is no contradiction. And there are various historical sources, both secular and Christian, that confirm this.
4. The account of Peter at the tomb – I am confused on this point as well. The Gospels tell the story of Jesus’ ministry on Earth from 4 different perspectives. They are not verbatim copies of each other. They were written by 4 different people. So the fact that details are different is not a contradiction at all. They all state that Jesus resurrected from the dead on the third day after his death on Passover. They all recount stories of Jesus appearing after His death to His disciples. The book of Acts (written by our friend Luke) records that Jesus appeared to 500 people after His resurrection, which certainly confirms his divinity. So the fact that Peter’s encounter is not recorded in some Gospels does not negate its validity at all. Some parables are in some Gospels and not in others. Yet Jesus said them all. To quote the last verse from the book of John:
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.”
Thanks again for your comment. I hope now you will consider reading the Bible with an open heart and mind and give it a chance. Jesus is indeed real, is alive and is waiting to forgive all your sins. But it starts with faith. And that won’t start until you get to know God a little better. I hope you do.
Hello,
on your first point, you wrote that
“And certainly the New Testament ancient manuscripts, of which there are thousands more than any other ancient text, are a legitimate resource to ascertain historical information.”
Were you referring to the documents which went to make up the New Testament and that there are thousands of them or are you referring to the New Testament treated as a single text, and says there are thousands of those?
If the former, I would be surprised to hear that the New Testament was made up of ‘thousands’ of separate documents. If the latter, then while I acknowledge that there are thousands of copies of the new testament (about 25,000 dating from 125 AD on), these thousands of copies do not lend the original documents any more veracity. This is common sense, surely, no amount of copying (and we know it was imperfect copying, carried out largely by amateur copyists for the first 300 years) makes an orginal document more or less accurate. It does not matter that there are thousands of them -although it obviously helps when it comes to attempts to determine the origianl text.
On you point about the Luke’s accuracy on the census, I will simply refer you here for a discussion which goes into more detail than I have the time or the Greek for: http://bible.org/article/problem-luke-22-ithis-was-first-census-taken-when-quirinius-was-governor-syriai
Concerning your point on Herod ordering Jews to return to Bethlehem, I would like to know your source, please. Certainly Matthew describes Herod convening a council of priests and other luminaries who told him the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Matthew also describes Herod sending the wise men to find Jesus, so that he might worship (kill) him but I know of no reference to Herod seeking to engineer the location of the birth.
In general, I still think that the census is one of the most obvious weaknesses in Luke. To quote Raymond Brown’s Introduction to the New Testament “The best explanation is that, although Luke likes to set his Christian drama in the context of well-known events from antiquity, sometimes he does so inaccurately.”
Regarding the story of Paul, I wasn’t highlighting the contradiction between the gospels (there’s far richer material for that exercise). I was merely pointing out that the obvious insertion of the story of Paul into Mark at a later date (and it is obvious) combined with the obvious reason why it should be necessary, shows that there was a fabrication. However, the fabrication was not total. In other words, there was an historical Jesus -a real living, breathing man, around whom (in my opinion) a cult and then a religion was developed.
Hi David,
Thanks for getting back to me. Now I understand your points better.
1. Manuscripts – Thank you for clarifying. To answer your question, I am saying “the latter” – that there are thousands of copies of the New testament, which you concede. And while that may not satisfy your personal criteria, this article was written using the perspective of textual criticism that historians and researchers of antiquities use. The thousands of manuscripts serve as enormous amount of evidence that Jesus existed and to the veracity of His life as described in the Bible. They are historical evidence. As i have pointed out several times in this thread, just a simple comparison to Julius Caesar and the evidence for Jesus is unquestionably greater and more compelling. And let’s not forget that the Gallic Wars were written by Caesar himself (and the oldest copy was from 1,000 years after his death), so obviously we can question the veracity of all its claims (but rarely if ever, people do). In short, there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than any figure in antiquity.
2. Luke’s census – The article you linked to does not even attempt to examine any of the historical documents which show that Luke was absolutely correct in identifying the two censuses that took place at Jesus’ birth and during his childhood (6AD). The article’s writer also demonstrates a lack of ancient historical knowledge as they write: ” The earliest known Roman census in Palestine was taken in AD 6-7″ I have already shown, from Augustus Caesar’s own writing, that there were several before 6AD. So this article really has little credibility or relevance in this discussion. It can be demonstrated from secular, primary sources that there was indeed a census before 6AD and that Cyrenius ruled over Syria during the time of those censuses before being formally appointed governor by Caesar.
So I think the article and Raymond Brown are wrong on this account. I understand that this question has been puzzling for some writers but the proof to support Luke’s account is readily accessible.
3. Joseph Going to Bethlehem For the census because he was from the line of David – You can find this historical reference in E.R. Schurer’s five volume set on Jewish Culture in the Time of Christ.
4. The Story of Peter – Ok, I understand your point. Do you have any evidence from a historical document or historian of Christians later inserting stories into the Gospels that were not originally there? For such a bold claim (which I do not believe at all) you should have some substantial evidence of this forgery to support it.
Again, there are many articles on the web that will try show “contradictions” in the Bible but time and time again, historical research shows the Bible’s accounts stand true. I would just urge you to have a more open mind and open heart to God and really try to get to know Him instead of taking this stance. Trying to fight the Bible will not address the issue of your sins, which we know for a fact, exists (just like mine does). So why not see that all through the Bible, God is looking to forgive you and reconcile with you?
“Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” – Isaiah 1:18. I hope you consider God’s offer.
Keep on reading. There are plenty of eyewitnesses to a resurrected Jesus in the Bible. If Jesus existed as you suggest and was crucified/killed why would his followers so willing to give up their own lives? They could have easily have gone back to fishing. The more I study the Bible, the convinced I become that it is not a story book.
Eye witness……….An eye can be deceived. You believe that a certain man is your father, though you are not an eye witness. You don’t see the air but doesn’t it exist? In an electrical cable (hot) you don’t see the power flow…..just touch and see. Eyes don’t help there.On German TV, it was shown, the muslim spirtuals cutting the tongue of a person, taking away and putting back, in slow motion. While there was no drop of blood was to be seen. Is it not an illusion? Deceiving the eyes. So, please, do not always believe your eyes. A person, who speaks to you, may be telling a lie; you see him, but you can’t believe him, on the basis of eye witness. The Lord said to Thomas (who didn’t believe that the Lord is risen and is alive) In the second appearance, when Thomas was also present,what the Lord spoke to Thomas, was, “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed; blessed are that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
(John 20:24-29)
Lol pay attention, all of the dates of their existence are CE and AD, both the terms for the time period AFTER the death of Christ. That means the establishment of Christianity already occurred and these historians all lived in regions of influence which skews their “documented” account no less important than the bible.
Hi
I’ve been looking through the internet and it seems that the majority of scholars and historians believe that Jesus existed. But I cannot seem to find any “statistics” or “sources” that show that the majority of the people do believe in his existence. How would that affect the authenticity of these scholars and historians and evidence for Jesus himself.
i think you’ll find only biblical scholars say that .as know one knows when the said jesus was actually born most/all dates are guess work.
you asked earlier about alexander the great ,i answerd that question and you keep on ignoring it i wonder why? is it because i proved you wrong??
Hi Neville,
I just replied to your earlier post so feel free to check that out.
With respect to Alexander the Great you concede there are no contemporary manuscripts about him. And in fact you won’t find any manuscripts detailing his life for centuries and centuries after his death. So as originally stated, the evidence of the existence of Jesus is far greater than Alexander the Great.
Paul did not write the letters to Timothy to Titus or several others published under his name; and it is unlikely that the apostles Matthew, James, Jude, Peter and John had anything to do with the canonical books ascribed to them.
-Michael D. Coogan, Professor of religious studies at Stonehill College (Bible Review, June 1994)
Also, the Vatican has original Cicero manuscripts. there are 58 of the original 88 still in existence.
OK, and what is Dr. Coogan basing his assertion on? A mere quote is not evidence. Is there a link to an article or research that gives reasons for this?
Cicero did not write manuscripts. So what would an “original Cicero manuscript” be? I’m confused by your statement.
Hello B&E,
This is the first time I’ve been on your site and the first article of yours that I’ve read. Of the article itself, I must say that I found it to be very interesting, informative and well written (not to mention the comments that thus ensued). I would also dare use the term ‘elucidating’, as, at least in my mind, you have shed some light on many misconceptions of the veracity of certain historical figures that I have, until now, just taken as being factual for granted. I was impressed also, by how well you stood your ground in the face of a barrage of comments against your stated case.
Before I go any further, as I doubt this will be my only comment, I thought you should know a little about me, so you know where I’m coming from.
I grew up with a Christian mother and a ‘religiously neutral’ father (I use that term, because he was too busy working to ‘make ends meet’ to bother with such and just went along to church because he thought it would make us happy). In the bracketed part, I say ‘us’, but I never really had a choice (I can’t speak for my older siblings, though). I went to a Catholic school, even though my mother was raised a Protestant (I know, WTF?), but that was only for the first three years of my schooling, as my mother thought they wasted too much time preaching instead of teaching and sent me to a public school instead. The real reason was that her conscious could no longer stomach the beatings I endured! Oh and, the beatings continued in public school too, but I guess it was more acceptable, because it wasn’t God’s school, or some crap like that.
Anyway, where I am going with all this? Ok, I’ll try to keep it short.
I started off with a Christian upbringing, got beat up on pretty bad throughout ALL of my schooling (like a lot of people), prayed to God EVERY DAY to just stop the pain and (like what so many have experienced) HE didn’t!!
Needless to say, I became a VERY angry young man and became an Atheist. Unfortunately, Atheism is no less of a comfort, as I had experienced too much to know that there is indeed such phenomenon as that which we call ‘supernatural beings’.
I still remember all too well the events of December 1996 through January 1997 (I actually wrote it in my diary), when I saw s– being thrown around our house by unseen forces – poltergeists, I guess – and even my skeptical, ‘religiously neutral’, dad was that freaked out that he got us the fuck outta there! Pardon my language.
The next night (not sure why night is better than day, but whatever), our neighbour got a priest in to “bless the house in Jesus’ name” and we lived in that house for another three and a half years with absolutely no disturbances.
Now, before you all go fapping over this and fapping over that… I honestly don’t know why it worked, but it did. There where very REAL disturbances in that house and calling upon Jesus apparently, which I’m assuming the priest did, since he were Catholic, was enough to send them on their way.
I no longer consider myself an Atheist, but I have just as many concerns over why calling upon Jesus or God or whatever, would help alleviate one from an annoying ghost, but not from something like cancer, if such were indeed so powerful.
Long story short, I am now Agnostic (yes, a ‘fence sitter’, as my Atheist friends like to say).
Luke 2:1-4 claims Jesus was born in the year of a universal tax census, but the first such census did not occur until 74 CE (and it is not in the other gospels).
Luke 2:2 KJV specifically states “And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.” Cyrenius is the Greek name for Publius Sulpicius Quirinius who came to this position in 6 CE.
Herod’s Slaughter of the Innocents (Matthew 2:16-18) is not recorded in any other history — even Josephus, who really didn’t like Herod and meticulously catalogued his other misdeeds.
Jesus is depicted as hugely popular in the gospels. Yet he is unrecorded by non-Biblical historians.
None of the miracles described biblically, such as the dead saints rising from graves and visiting Jerusalem or a three hour long eclipse following Jesus’ death, are picked up on by contemporary writers such as Pliny or Philo. One would reasonably expect that such events would be noticed.
Many of the stories in the gospels do not make any sense historically, such as the trial and crucifixion on Passover
Hi Nigel,
Thanks for your comments but this specific issue was already raised in this thread. I don’t like to re-post but I will just copy some of the relevant points. The article you quote says:
This is incorrect on several levels. Augustus Caesar in his own writings detailed the several taxations/censuses he took during his reign (cited below).
And the book of Acts mentions a second census that took place during the life of Christ (also cited below).
1. Cyrenius As Governor of Syria – Cyrenius was governor of Syria twice. This is confifmed in Robery Boyd’s “Tells, Tombs and Treasures.” This confirms Roman history as we know that Cyrenius led a military action against the Homonadensians (in Syria) during the period between 12 and 2 B.C. Tacitus in his Annals (cited above), records this. Additionally, the term Luke uses to describe Cyrenius in Greek is “hegemon”, which means “leader” and not an official position like governor (“legatus”). So the Bible text, in its original language even acknowledges Cyrenius’ actual role, before he was formally appointed governor years later by Augustus.
2. The Roman Census – And Augustus (who was in power at that time) himself notes in his Res Gestae (The Deeds of Augustus) that he ordered three wide-spread censuses of Roman citizens, one in 28B.C., one in 8 B.C. and one in 14 A.D. And there were several other local census taken.
During one of the censuses, Augustus also required an oath of allegiance be made. In Chapter 34 of Res Gestae Augustus also notes, “When I administered my thirteenth consulate (2 B.C.E.), the senate and Equestrian order and Roman people all called me father of the country, and voted that the same be inscribed in the vestibule of my temple” The historian Josephus also records this census being one accompanied by an oath to Caesar. Orosius, a fifth century Christian, links this registration with the birth of Jesus saying that “all of the peoples of the great nations were to take an oath.”
So from Augustus’ own writings, we know that there was a census in 8 BC and 2BC. And considering that we know that Cyrenius was “hegemon” over Syria from 12BC to 2 BC, it totally lines up with the Biblical account. So Luke was absolutely correct. There was a census and taxing by Ceasar at the time Cyrenius was leading Syria.
“Slaughter of Innocents” – What must be remembered is that Bethlehem in the time of Christ’s infancy was a very small town, of probably several thousand people. So the slaughter was not a wide spread genocide campaign (nor does the Bible play it up that way is it makes it clear it took place in one town). So Josephus not recording it is not that shocking. But considering there are thousands of Matthew manuscripts from antiquity that do record it, I see no substantive reason for why it should be rejected.
Josephus, who was closest geographically and culturally to the life of Christ off all the historians in the article, mentions His resurrection and His wonderful works and Him being more than a mere man. The other historians wrote from a different perspective and like Josephus were not believers in the supernatural aspects of Christianity so their sticking to historical, secular facts is not that surprising. But even then Lucian wrote that Christians believe they are immortal. Of course he does not agree with that, but he records it nonetheless.
As for the trial taking place during Passover it is not surprising consdiering it was done at the vehement request of the religious authorities in Judea at that time (the Sanhedrin). And when you read the Bible, it’s clear that neither Herod nor Pilate were interested in trying Jesus but finally gave in to the constant, passionate requests. And the Pharisees at one point basically accuse of Pilate of treason against Caesar if he refused to try someone claiming to be King. I encourage you to read the Gospels and actually give it a chance before just dismissing the Bible and God’s offer of free forgiveness for your sins. Even from an academic standpoint, if you are going to critique a book, you should at least read it and know it first, right?
Just something for you to consider. There is much to be gained from reading the Bible with an open heart and mind. I hope and pray you do.
I find it comforting to see that Dorian is not only hanging out on a Christian website, he is working hard to disprove everything that is said. At least he is willing to be exposed to the teachings of the Bible. He has faith that the chair he sits in will hold him up each time, that the plane he travels in will fly, that the sun will come up and go down each day, but can not accept a simple premise. The Bible is a collection of 66 books, written by over 30 different authors in four languages over 1,500 years and it does not contradict itself. There was not a central library or database for the writes to draw upon. It’s not a story book.
what he has isn’t faith but trust,he trusts in the ability of the tradesman ,whether its building a chair or maintaining an aircraft it has nothing todo with faith that the sun will be there tomorrow even the ancient greeks new that the earth go’s around the sun ,it dosnt come up any school child knows that ,to say the bible dosnt contradict it self are you looking at the same book as everyone else ,to believe it dosnt just proves you are a fool who cant be taken seriously,the bible was written by no one its a collection of stories put together by a group of men with an a gender,an a gender to rule backward people in a backward time ,what amazes me is that modern men can still be so fooled by it .
…nev…
What amazes me is that a skeptic would spend time floating around a site such as this and spew folly. “The Bible was written by no one”…. that sure is an interesting thought. Did it just appear out of nowhere? Wait that couldn’t happen it would be a miracle if it did. The very scrolls that the various books of the Bible were written on, do exist. Faith is confidence in what we hope for and an assurance about what we do not see. To think that the Bible is a gender based book to rule over others shows your ignorance in a topic that you have no business debating. Once you have “thoroughly” studied the Bible, take time to list its contradictions. When you see the how women played important roles throughout its pages your thoughts will change. The invitation is there, to spout off as a unlearned man only makes you look like the fool.
well when people tell me its all true ,ive got to see what they are saying and so far as i can see they’re not saying much to prove me or others wrong , but please dont expect normal rational people to believe in it
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
http://sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0009.htm
and these are just a few ……prove me wrong ,as i noticed in your last post you didnt actually say anything to prove me wrong and you cant spell.
Hi Neville,
Please refrain from personal attacks. We can express our disagreement in these forums but please do so in a respectful manner. Thanks very much.
ive noticed i can be called names ,anyway no matter i see you wont challenge what i said ,so heres some more contradictions just for you..
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
…nev…
Hi Neville,
I apologize if you have been called names by others. We do not tolerate personal attacks against anyone.
As for a response, please note that this site receives many comments and emails and it is difficult to respond to all of them. As such, if you have a point from a website or article you have read that you would like to share, please make it. Simply giving a link to a Bible skeptic website and saying “respond to this” is not really fruitful discussion (not to mention that it is not on the topic of the article). At the same time, there are certain posters who are against the points in the article who do provide links that I will read. But in this case, there is a specific point that person is making, the dialogue has been substantive and they are offering the link to say “check this article out because it supports my point.” In that instance, I am happy to check out a link.
Wow this article really ruffled the feathers of the devils.
Apparently you did a good job for them to react in this way, praise the Lord Jesus for that.
i lovvveeeeeeee uuu jesus u are my one and only. U are the light of my pathway ur there when i need you babe ILY X10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Not sure if trolling…
Babes i totally agree wiv us. use is soooo write i love hime to infinity and beyond DEVOTED CHRISTIANS RIGHT HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BOOOOOOOM! jesus+god+my hubby= my lifey
I have stumbled into this thread after researching what Christians use as “independent proof” of the existence of Jesus of Nazareth. It’s pretty thin stuff isn’t it? The usual Josephus/Tacitus/Pliny references wheeled out as if together with the gospels they are conclusive. Of course they are not! Hearsay is not evidence. Just as the Gospels were written way after the death of Jesus, mostly based on 2nd, 3rd and who knows how many -hand accounts, each of which may have been changed to suit myriad ulterior motives, by writers who had individual axes to grind, the three guys mentioned did not list their sources in a way that these days would be standard academic practice.
And anyway most of what they write about are the followers of Jesus, who, in that information-poor time may or may not have been simply conned, followers of a fiction.
Having said that there is no reason to believe that there was not a Jesus of Nazareth. Atheists who get all hot and bothered about that are surely missing a point – and missing a big trick. The question is not whether some carpenter with the gift of the gab, a knowledge of conjuring and a grasp of Judaic, Mithraic and Zoroastrian teachings (a squishing together of which the best bits of Jesus’ material could be said to be) existed, but the related SEPARATE question of whether he really was the son of God. And whether heaven and hell exist. And whether you go them depending on whether you die good or bad. There is of course no “independent evidence” for any of these propositions, and no proponents of them either except the gospel writers.
I think people of faith should stop trying to “prove” things and accept that faith has no rational basis. They should not NEED to try to prove the validity of something that they believe to be God’s word. They have made their decision to be comforted by a cosy fiction. Atheists, to be fair should let them get on with it.
Oh and big whatever directed at the guy who said that the Bible doesnt contradict itself.
I like your take on this Samdemanne, and completely agree with people of faith accepting that for which it is, a strong belief in the spiritual realm. As well as athiest who choose not to believe in that faith to let it be. I consider myself to be a believer with some spirituality and a skeptic in other areas. such as I do believe in a creator of all things simply because I find it impossible for something to come from nothing other than a supreme being who always has been, which I cannot fathom either yet believe. I also believe in Jesus Christ as the son and savior, even with the limited evidense. He must of existed and done some great things for the simple fact of all of the positive and negative attention he recieved. Am I the most devote Christian, far from it because I do have my doubts. I’m not highly educated in writings or scriptures and tend to bypass kind of ignore the he said she said part of it. I have taken a glance at some of the arguments in this article and can say that both sides have valid points. The one thing that stands out for me is the simple fact that I am imperfect in many ways and would like to be forgiven for those and have a chance at eternal life with Gods grace. whereas athiest have no beliefs and just be, why not have hope in something more and bigger than you! Some things such as some of the miracles and “tall tales” I find hard to believe. I also feel that some of the Bible may be man made, I dont know for sure. I know some Christians will probably say that I’m not a true Christian because I waver on some of my beliefs. All I have to say is true inner feelings are worth 10 fold to any historical knowledge possibly twisted throughout the change of hands. the fact is that following scripture far outways the benifits of not following scripture. with that being said, I need to practice what I preach lol.
Hey Simplified, I think you and I disagree on more than we agree, but I like your doubting. A person with doubts is a person with an open mind, and in disputes such as this thread no-one can ask any more of their fellow disputants.
While Im here I’d like to withdraw “and no proponents of them either except the gospel writers.” from my original submission. It was inaccurate.
be for i type a lot lets see if this works
Commercial of the antichrist on TV: http://youtu.be/fll97zpfEZQ
Who rules this planet? http://youtu.be/cmI9V0fmJWk
The World tallest statue for the antichrist in India http://youtu.be/Uh07CBCL7jA
Maitreya and the communism new world order: http://youtu.be/k9yqFrvl-Jk
The miracles of the antichrist: http://youtu.be/gD2qkFV6PhA
The antichrist followers (look at the pentagram star at the beginning): http://youtu.be/73vvOT7NaBA
Jesus Christ sends this message, in spanish, warning about Maitreya, in a little sanctuary of Argentina (Use a good translator to understand well the message) http://www.santuario.com.ar/paginas/bp_044.html#Anchor-14344
robinson. Im not going to waste my time watching your your silly little movies or whatever they are. If you’ve got something to say, say it in your own words. your problem here is the problem of all religious people. by pushing these films on this thread you are putting forward views of other people alive or dead who you respect without examining things critically.
Right, so if your religion included stoning your children for reading, that should be acceptable as well?
It’s not about the way you raise your children, but about the limits on how children should be treated. You can teach your children about anything, but a child is not ready for someone telling them that they are going to hell if they don’t believe this or that. That’s child abuse.
We have laws that protect children from many things until they are old enough. Religion should be one of them. Throwing children in a church with a bunch of adults to whom they look up to and have those adults pushing these ideal on them, is INSANE.
In my opinion, ALL religions should be taught in schools starting at High School or even Elementary. That way there is NO bias, and ALL religions would then be exposed for what they are, a sham.
And if you want to treat your child like this, then it just shows how the morality in both Christian and Muslim religions is actually harmful to society in general.
The bottom line is that both of the aforementioned religions want to be inside the government teaching things that are FALSE, simply because they believe their 2000 year old book is the way.
Religion should be left to the churches for adults. What age is right? I don’t know. Studies should be done.
no what dorian is saying is let children decide ,is that to hard to fathom
Let children decide? There is a reason why parents decide for their children. They have yet to reach the age of reason. If we let them decide, how many children do you think would still continue going to school? If I was still a 6 year old and had the same mentality similar in that age, I would decide not to go to school. Heck, I would probably decide against the things that are right.
Again, as B&E have pointed, you present yourself as advocating freedom when you similarly advocate against the freedom of the parents. It’s their child, a parent should have every right how he/she would like his/her son raised up, as long as it doesn’t cause grave harm to them. It’s not your semen or egg, it’s theirs.
That’s the problem with religion, it numbs your mind to the point where you can’t think straight.
TALK IS CHEAP.
Whatever the bible says, is NOTHING but words, the reality is EXACTLY as I mention in my last email.
Your rebuttal is nothing more than excuses and promises. Anyone can promises anything, it means nothing.
Eternal life? Don’t make me laugh, he can’t even heal a common cold.
Your paradise is a fantasy, just like the Muslim’s 72 virgins. All a LIE.
THE BIGGEST LIES EVER TOLD.
Really, forget all the rape and hunger talk?
Seriously, it’s easy to talk when you are NOT the one dying of hunger!
Why don’t you stop eating in the name of your god and suffer as you say we should?
What a hypocritical and hideous thing to say!
This is what religion does to you, it makes you into a completely irrational being capable of defending your religion at the cost of everyone. That’s the exact same thought process that allowed humans to fly planes into the twin towers, who cares about the suffering now, since we are going to heaven with 72 virgins…
Your religion is a disgusting thing that suppress the free thought of the human race.
Hunger IS TERRIBLE and So are the rest of the atrocities suffered by humanity, but science will find a way of eventually eradicating this plagues.
Religion will die a slow and painful death as more and more people get educated and realize what type of humans they become by following this garbage!
Go suffer in the name of your god yourself, and leave everyone else out of your absurdities!
For those people who don’t believ