The Book of Judges Chapters 4 and 5 record the history of the nation of Israel in the time of the prophetess Deborah. During this period the Israelites, now in the Promised Land after the military conquests of Joshua, went through a constant cycle of falling into sin, being punished by God via an attack by enemy invaders, crying out to the Lord in repentance and a Judge being raised up to lead the nation back towards God and deliver them from their troubles. Deborah was one of the 12 judges and in her account in Joshua Chapters 4 and 5 we see the faith, strength and leadership of a faithful woman of God.
God instructed the Israelites to wipe out the Canaanites completely from the land of Israel but they failed in doing so. As a result, their enemies would routinely regroup and try to attack the Israelites once more to reclaim the Promised land for themselves. During the time of Deborah’s term as judge, the King of Canaan saw an opportunity for attack:
And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, when Ehud was dead. And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelt in Harosheth of the Gentiles. And the children of Israel cried unto the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel. And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. – Judges 4:1-7.
King Jabin sent Sisera, the captain of his army to lead their chariots and soldiers against the Israelites. The chariot at this time in history was one of the most devastating weapons in warfare. It gave the Canaanites a decided advantage in battle to destroy the nation of Israel. In the conflict detailed in this short passage there are several valuable spiritual principles:
— The Israelites cried out to God — The impending attack of the Canaanites came as a result of the sins Israel committed. Once their former Judge, Ehud, passed away, the national fell into sinful rebellion against The Lord. Judges 5 tells us that “they chose new gods” — once again falling into the sin of idolatry by worshiping demons and fallen angels. But what is most important is that once their suffering commenced, the Israelites cried out to the Lord. The same principle applies during the Christian life. While a Christian can never lose their salvation in Jesus Christ, they can certainly be punished on Earth for sins before God. If you are a Christian and you are in sin, expect God to chastise you. In fact, being disciplined by God is confirmation of His love for you:
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? – Hebrews 12:7-9.
Even when you know you are in sin, do not let your guilt keep you from confessing your sins to God and getting right with The Lord. As the passage states, we take correction from our earthly parents, employers, teachers and other authority figures in our lives and respect it. We should give even more respect to The Lord after being punished for our sin. And if you have suffered some hardship for it, rejoice and know that God indeed loves you as His child.
— God Always Leaves a Faithful Remnant – Even when it feels like an entire nation is fallen into sin, The Lord will still have His people who worship Him and have faith in Him, remaining as well. Deborah was waiting for the Israelites when they sought her Godly counsel. They only needed to seek her out. It is no different today. If you are in distress, seek Godly wisdom from a believer who you trust. Or maybe you will be the remnant for someone else who is going through a trial.
— Solve Earthly Problems with Godly Solutions – Rather than figuring out a battle plan against the King of Jabin or putting together a delegation to go negotiate a peace treaty, the Israelites sought the prophetess Deborah to hear the Word of God. This was yet another sign that they were getting back on track spiritually with The Lord. The Israelites were in a serious crisis. Death was literally knocking on their door in the form of a massive army. And rather than rely on their own “knowledge” and strength, they turned to God for a solution. This is so important for Christians today to take heed of. When you face a crisis, tragedy or are terribly afraid, look to God. Turn to the Word or a Godly leadership for biblical advice.
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. – James 1:2-5.
We will have times of trial in this life to test, prove and strengthen our faith in God. They are inevitable as long as a Christian still lives in this cursed, sinful world. The temptation to think of a solution on your own and then pray for God to fulfill it is strong. Many times we think “if I just have ______, I will be out of this problem!” But as the passage from James indicates above, first and foremost a believer should just ask for wisdom to see God’s perspective on the problem you are facing. Pray for God’s wisdom in any crisis and as the Bible says, God will give it “liberally.”
Deborah Inspires The Nation
-A true Prophet of God only preaches God’s Word – Since the Bible was not yet complete at this time, it was the prophets, who were chosen by The Lord to receive His Word and deliver it to the people. The Prophetess Deborah sent for Barak and told him only what God said. This is the the New Testament guideline for Pastors today – to preach God’s Word. Deborah did not add her own opinions, ideas or suggestions to God’s Word. She preached only what “The Lord hath commanded.” How forgotten is this among pastor’s today? Many have twisted scripture, focused on person-centered sermons, self-help advice or just preached against the Bible altogether. Even as the world is moving to water down the Scriptures and apostate churches are following suit, seek a church led by Godly pastors who are not willing to compromise Biblical truths for their own ideas and imaginations.
The passage continues:
And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh. And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him. Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh. And they shewed Sisera that Barak the son of Abinoam was gone up to mount Tabor.
And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, even nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that were with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon. And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him. And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off his chariot, and fled away on his feet. But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left. – Judges 4:8-16.
What a victory! Against great odds, the Israelites defeated King Jabin and the Canaanites. And there are more lessons in this passage:
— Deborah respected God’s Order for men and women – As prophetess over Israel, Deborah clearly commanded the respect of the people. As judge and prophetess she was the law-giver to the people and the source of God’s Word. However, she did not rule the nation. Many articles and commentaries on this portion of the Bible call Deborah “ruler of Israel” or a “warrior princess” but this was not the case. The Hebrew word for “judge” in the Book of Judges is shaphat which means “law-giver; one who executes judgment; to decide controversy.” This is further confirmed in Judges Chapter 8 after the Judge Gideon won a mighty victory for the Israelites over their enemies in Midian. The people, impressed and awed by Gideon wanted to make him their king:
Then the men of Israel said unto Gideon, Rule thou over us, both thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son also: for thou hast delivered us from the hand of Midian. And Gideon said unto them, I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: the Lord shall rule over you. — Judges 8:22-23.
So it should be clear that Deborah was not a ruler over Israel (in fact there was no human ruler over the Israelites until King Saul). Similarly, she did not lead the army into battle. Barak, whom God had chosen to lead, was in charge of the armies. Even when Barak was apparently too scared to even go into battle without Deborah accompanying him, she agreed to join him on the trip but stayed back at mount Tabor to let Barak lead and the armies “went after him.”
Rather than usurp Barak, she encouraged him to obey God. This should be an example for a Godly woman. God has ordered the male to lead in certain areas of life and under the Mosaic law, only men over the age of 20 were to go into battle (Numbers 1:1-3). And in other chapters, some of the male judges did indeed take on the role of “deliverer” and fought in battles (Deborah is never given that title in Scripture).
Rather than seeking her own glory or saying “I’m the one who speaks directly to God, I’m in charge here!”, Deborah humbly submitted to God’s plan and wisdom over her own. This was not an example of a woman “doing the job because a man would not step up.” Rather, it was a Godly woman called by Lord, sharing God’s Word in the manner and order God had clearly outlined. Yet today, in the age of apostasy, many women have taken on the role of pastor despite the Bible saying the Pastor should be the “husband of one wife.” Ironically, many of these women defend their disobedience to Scripture on the grounds that they have “the anointing” or that they were “called of the The Lord.” Are they following Deborah’s example of faithful obedience or their own agenda?
In the end, God has his own plan for Barak. As the Scriptures detail, God determined that while Barak would be victorious in battle, the death of the wicked Canaanite captain Sisera would be accomplished by a woman. So God dealt with Barak’s indecision the way He saw fit.
— God Provided the victory – As Deborah had preached from the beginning, it was God who provided the victory for the Israelites. God literally went and defeated the armies of Sisera. Webster’s 1828 dictionary (which was based on the language of the King James Bible) defines the word ‘discomfited’ as “Routed; defeated; overthrown.” This of course is a picture of a Christian’s salvation. It is not through any work, plan or action of our own that a person is saved. It is only through the work of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. The duty of the person is to believe in it. Jesus Christ fought the battle against sin and death by taking on the sins of humanity and dying as a sacrifice to receive God’s wrath and provide freedom from sin and eternal life for all who believe.
Similarly Barak was able to achieve the victory just by having faith in God’s Word and leading the men into battle. By the time they showed up, God had already won the battle and the armies of Israel only needed to chase down the last of the fleeing Canaanite soldiers. And as Jesus is described in Ephesians leading the souls of the righteous to Heaven, so too did Barak “lead thy captivity captive”
Deborah Gives God The Glory
Judges chapter 5 is a song of praise and worship the Deborah sings to The Lord:
Then sang Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam on that day, saying, Praise ye the LORD for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves. Hear, O ye kings; give ear, O ye princes; I, even I, will sing unto the LORD; I will sing praise to the LORD God of Israel. LORD, when thou wentest out of Seir, when thou marchedst out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens dropped, the clouds also dropped water. The mountains melted from before the LORD, even that Sinai from before the LORD God of Israel. – Judges 5:1-5.
— Giving God credit for all – Rather than throw themselves a victory parade, Deborah and Barak sang praises to The Lord for their victory.
–– Deborah embraces her role – In verse 7, Deborah calls herself a “mother of Israel.” While not a Queen or military leader, she took her role of mother over her people very seriously and faithfully. She followed God and led her children, the Israelites to put their faith in The Lord to deliver them from their enemies. In this she is a fine example and role model for Christian women (and men) today. In her song, you can hear her compassion for the people of Israel, her rejoicing over God’s defense of her nation and her desire for righteous judgment of the enemies of God. Her strength came through her reliance on God and she was blessed with helping to save her nation from destruction and bringing peace to her land. The close of her song typifies Deborah’s faith and the Christian life, ever looking to glorify God and trusting in His promises to glorify us in eternity:
So let all thine enemies perish, O LORD: but let them that love him be as the sun when he goeth forth in his might. And the land had rest forty years. – Judges 5:31.
Any time someone tells me “God cannot/will not/does not use women to do _________,” I always point to Deborah. I often mention other women as well, of course, but I like to start with Deborah, because she really stands out.
I do have a question, however. On the one hand, I can see where there is a very clear distinction between “ruling” and “leading.” However, it seems as though you are seeking to make the distinction to the point of saying “God does not use women to lead.” If that is the case, may I ask why?
Again, an excellent read, BaE. Keep up the good work!
Beginning and End says
A mother is certainly a leader. And Prophets are leaders in the spiritual sense. They lead people back to God from their sinful ways via God’s Word. Deborah most certainly did this and is a leader. I just wanted to make sure that the article gave a Biblically-accurate portrayal of who she was. There are many books, commentaries and articles that call her “Queen” or “warrior princess” as if she was ruler of Israel or in the latter case, fought in the battle against Sisera’s army. Neither is true. Israel in its pre-Saul days was a theocracy in which God was its King. This is an important concept because it reflects God’s original plan of government – where He is King over the people. This will be the case in the Millennial Kingdom when Christ reigns out of Jerusalem. So I wanted to note that Deborah respected God’s authority and order. That being said, you are absolutely right. She was a great leader and servant to our Lord.
Glad you liked the article! Thanks!
Deborah Correia says
My name is Deborah Correia and I have been gifted with visions and actually hearing GOD’s voice. I am very kind, gentle but very strong in my faith.
I am not the Deborah of that time but I have written to Barack Obama and given him advice as Deborah did in the BIBLE.
YOU do realize that bARACK OBAMA is a MUSLIM…AND MARXIST…he will not listen to you…MANY have tried…he would not listen to me, either…if I were to write to him…
My name is not ‘DEBORAH’ but, THE LORD told me, too, that I was a MOTHER OF ISRAEL…I have heard the AUDIBLE VOICE OF THE LORD twice, in my life, and many times, I’ve heard THE LORD speaking to me, in my spirit…I Have also had DISASTER-RELATED DREAMS in the past.
I only wish you could reach that man – BUT, he is the one that the bible calls ‘THE LAWLESS ONE’ – HIS CODE NAME IS ‘RENEGADE’.
IT IS THROUGH AMERICA’S DISOBEDIENCE – REBELLION AGAINST GOD, that he was able to usurp the reins of power.
He is set upon a course, much like Pharaoh.
His name means lightning – high place – place of child sacrifice – tophet.
see ppsimmons – youtube on this.
Deborah Correia says
Greeting Rets and all GODS wonderful people,
I must share this. I recently saw an ANGEL. Let me tell you something truly great. I could see his stomach that was filled with strong muscle, he had wings attached to his body like I have never seen on any bird on earth. He flew past me faster than the speed of light. He gave me a split second glimpse of himself and if that is one of GODS angel coming with JESUS CHRIST of NAZARETH when HE returns to rule and be the KING of ISRAEL then I am absolutely certain that the WAR will be filled with might and strength like we cannot simply can never ever comprehend.
Deborah (the busy like I am) was chosen by GOD to assist Barak and help him to make the correct decision. She was no pastor or ordained in any way by the church but GOD chose her because he knew she would obey him and was very loyal to GOD.
I have made many mistakes in my life but I believe profusely in GOD our creator and HIS son that was sent for our SALVATION (JESUS CHRIST – of Nazareth), I would have done as Deborah did in the BIBLE without a doubt. I believe Deborah was a Prophet and not a Pastor. A judge and leader.
Love to all
Seeking The Truth says
Hi B&E, I just wanted to get something clear, you don’t believe women are called to be pastor’s? In my interpretation of Deborah’s story I see a woman being called to be a messenger of God. She received God’s message and relayed it to the people. Isn’t that what pastor’s do?
Beginning and End says
It’s not really about what I believe, but what the Bible says, first and foremost. Deborah was certainly a prophetess. She had direct communication with The Lord and led the nation of Israel spiritually to get back on track with God and find victory in His protection. And there are other prophetesses in the Old and New testament. However the Pastor or Bishop was an office established in the New Testament. And the Bible lists the requirements:
So not only does the Bible clearly says that a Pastor should be a man, it should be a married man. And yes, I absolutely believe what the Bible says, 100%. Now the offices of Prophetess/Prophet and Pastor are different. A Pastor has a set group of followers who are already believers (the church). They are to edify and build up believers for the ministry. Ephesians 4 says the role of a Pastor is: “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:” . Pastors are there to build up the body of saints in a church so they can be discipled and go out into ministry.
A prophet proclaims God’s Words to a people or nation whether they want to hear it or not. Elijah was a great Prophet and man of God, but was he a Pastor? no. He had no flock. Jeremiah not only had no following, no one ever listened to him. The people hated him.
So with these examples from Scripture, can a woman proclaim God’s Word to people? Absolutely. But can they hold the office of Pastor? no. The Book of Titus confirms the same:
Notice in this verse there are a number of requirements listed. If a Pastor is a lover of “filty lucre” , or is abusive or an angry man, they should be disqualified as well.
I would love to hear your thoughts on how you interpret these passages? Please note that I am a student of the Bible, just like you. I am not a Pastor. I am learning and growing in Christ along with everyone else and trying my best to interpret and righly follow our Lord’s Scriptures. Thanks for your comments and God bless you abundantly.
The Scripture you posted only mentions (from what I see and have read) the position and/or title (or “office” if you will) of that of a Bishop. Does Bishop and Pastor mean the same thing and/or have and/or fulfill same roles and/or responsibilities and/or duties? Please clarify as this is what I believed! I believe that the twp positions were and are just that! Separate positions and not two of the same! A Bishop is a Bishop and a Pastor is a Pastor! If I’m not mistaken … a Pastor is more of the “Shepherd” over the flock of which GOD + The Holy Spirit of GOD gives, or has given, unto the Body of Christ for the perfecting of according to Ephesians 4:11 which states that HE (referring to the Holy Spirit = The Third Person of the Divine Godhead consisting of The FATHER = The SON JESUS and Their Holy Spirit a.k.a The Comforter; administers these Ministry Gifts as HE wills and willed for the perfecting of the Church and the Work of Ministry! It mentions nothing there about a Bishop in that particular Scripture but does refer to the qualifications of a Bishop (like you stated) in the Book of Titus! And to my understanding, a Bishop is an Overseer of the Church; again, which is the Body of Christ = The People is the Church, not the buildings and/or place (or places) of worship! So in closing, Ephesians 4:11 starts off with these words: “He gave some Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, and some Pastors and Teachers …” Amen? Blessings.
You know, BaE, I’d be very interested in getting your understanding on something, in light of all you’ve said here. You point to the statements that a pastor or elder must be the “husband of one wife.” I agree that is what it literally says. So, with that understood, do you believe that only men are guilty of, say, covetousness? Or murder?
I’m not intending to insult your intelligence here, but there’s a reason I ask this.
Beginning and End says
No insult taken at all. It’s just simply a matter of looking at the text. The Scripture does not say the Pastor should be someone who is not “guilty of being covetous.” It says it should not be someone who “is covetous”, as in, that is their normal everyday disposition. Just like being a “brawler.” There is a difference between a guy who has gotten into a fight in his life and someone who is known as a “fighter” or “always ready to throw down.” One is a set incident in time, the other is an attribute someone displays on a regular basis. This is what these requirements are speaking to – one’s lifestyle, not an individual incident.
Just as 1 Timothy says a Pastor should be “apt to teach.” Does this mean that if you have a conversation with a Pastor and they do not try to teach you something, they are kicked out? No. It means, in general, they should be inclined to teach God’s Word. And as I said, I believe all the requirements still apply today, not just the gender one. I hope that clears things up. God bless.
But you would agree that women can be covetous?
I ask because within the Ten Commandments, the tenth is EXTREMELY gender specific. By the logic you’ve put forth, only men can be guilty of covetousness.
Again, I’m not wishing to stir up a fight: My point is that I believe that God is capable of using anyone, anywhere, for any reason or post- And that includes women as pastors when there are no men willing to actually BE men.
One of my constant sticking points to the traditional argument, which I believe you’ve presented here, is that the entire Bible is very male-specific when speaking in general terms. Part of that problem, I believe, comes from the fact that there really are not many gender neutral languages; and quite honestly, the idea of “gender neutrality” in general has not been a issue for very long in comparison. In days past, one could use male oriented terminology and it was understood by the mixed audience that one was referring to both genders. I believe that the concept of gender neutrality has muddied the waters in more way than one.
Beginning and End says
This is definitely one of the most interesting objections to male pastors I’ve seen. But I don’t really follow as I don’t know what the 10th commandment has to do with the requirements to be a pastor.
The Bible is very, very gender specific when it intends to be:
“Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.” – Exodus 20:12.
“And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do. 8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.” Exodus 21:7-8.
“And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.” — Exodus 21:17
“And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.” – Exodus 21:20.
“If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.” –Exodus 21:20.
And these are just a few examples from 2 chapters. My point here is that when the Bible wants to be gender specific, it absolutely is. Are there verses that use the term “man” to refer to humanity? Absolutely. Which only further proves my point: that when the Bible wants to make a distinction between genders, it does so quite clearly.
The verses in 1 Timothy and Titus does not even say “man.” They say “husband of one wife.” how could this be interpreted any other way? There is no generality here. It is as specific as it gets.
I believe that Scripture actually says the exact opposite. This is precisely the situation King Saul found himself in 1 Samuel 13 when the Philistines were mounting a counterstrike and the Israelites literally ran for the hills in fear. Saul was told to wait for the prophet Samuel to come see him and instead acted out on his own:
“When the men of Israel saw that they were in a strait, (for the people were distressed,) then the people did hide themselves in caves, and in thickets, and in rocks, and in high places, and in pits. 7 And some of the Hebrews went over Jordan to the land of Gad and Gilead. As for Saul, he was yet in Gilgal, and all the people followed him trembling. 8 And he tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel had appointed: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him. 9 And Saul said, Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings. And he offered the burnt offering. 10 And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him. 11 And Samuel said, What hast thou done? And Saul said, Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash; 12 Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the Lord: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering. 13 And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the Lord thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever.” – 1 Samuel 13.
Saul, wanted to consult God so he offered a burnt sacrifice. Except there was one major problem – Burnt offerings were only to be offered by Levites. Saul was of the tribe of Benjamin. But since there was no Levite priest around (remember, the people had scattered in fear), Saul thought he could “step up” and play the role of priest. Remember – it is very important to note that Saul was trying to contact and commune with God. This was not an evil scheme. It was a genuine attempt to offer a sacrifice to the Lord. And Not only did Samuel rebuke him for his sin against God, this was the moment that God took the Kingdom of Israel from Saul to give to David. It was the beginning of the end of Saul’s special relationship with God.
Of course, a few chapters later, Saul again, disobeys to try and do something special for God and Samuel tells him: to obey is better than sacrifice. So if anything, this passage shows that we should never presume to know better than God’s prescribed order for things as stated in His Word. We don’t tell God how to do things. We obey His Word and let Him provide the spiritual growth. And with respect to Pastors being a husband of one wife, that is what God has clearly stated. And even if I don’t fully understand the reasoning, I still humbly obey The Lord whose thoughts are much higher than mine.
Okay. Again, I understand where you are coming from- I was raised toe same way. I’ve come to a different understanding, but I do not hold that against anyone, as I hope none hold my differences against me.
The tenth commandment states:
“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour’s.” (Ex. 20:17)
Now, as you can plainly see, there is nothing there to indicate that the Lord, in this commandment, is speaking to women. Yet, I believe we both can agree that women can indeed be covetous. So, what I personally found myself having to do is begin with my basic belief:
1. Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God?
Absolutely and without question- YES.
2. If it is inerrant, can there be any flaw to it?
Flaws within the Word would prevent it from being without error, so no- There can be no flaw.
3. If it is without flaw, can there be contradiction?
Again, contradiction within the Word would be a flaw, and a great one at that. So once more, NO, there can be no contradiction.
4. If there can be no contradiction, what is the explanation for what I’m seeing?
Well, one conclusion is that there are two separate standards that God holds humanity to: One for males and one for females. Another is that there has been a translation error over time, thus leading me to see an apparent contradiction in logic. Finally, it may be that I am approaching this with my own understanding, and am thusly in error myself.
a. Does God hold a double standard?
No. We see time and time again that God despises those who do, and He cannot do what He hates. That is, what He calls sin He is incapable of doing, limited by His nature and not by His power. Thus, God does not hold men and women to two separate standards.
b. Could this be the result of a translation error over time?
It could be. However, if it is the result of error, where is the error more likely to be: With the oldest record, or the newest? Logic dictates that the oldest is more in danger of being mistranslated, and thus we wind up back at the first suggestion within this section, point a.
c. Could my own understanding of Scripture be wrong?
When all else is considered, this is the only possibility. Point a is an impossible explanation while point b only brings us back to point a. Thus, my own understanding must, in some way, be flawed.
After all of this, the question was: How is my understanding of this mistaken? Enter my second round of questions…
1. Is it true that God has ordained a specific order; that there were gender specific roles set out from the time of Creation?
The answer is yes, of course. Eve was taken from the side of Adam, as the old saying goes, not to be the head or the foot but to be the help-meet. Adam came first, (bodily at any rate, but that’s a different topic), and thus Eve was specifically designed to follow. So yes, from the beginning, there has been a specific order.
2. Is the order set in place originally still in place today?
Here we run into a problem, because as you’ve pointed out in this entry, Deborah was a prophet; a leader. If the original order was that woman follows man, then Deborah is out of order. However, no one can deny that God used Deborah in a powerful way. Thus, the original order, like everything else in Creation, was warped and twisted in some way. So the answer is no, that original order is no longer in place.
3. If the original order is no longer in place, what explains the apparent inconsistency seen here?
The answer is very interesting. At the time all of this was written, there was not a lot of concern over gender neutrality: That is, where folks use “folks” to refer to people as a whole, this was not done when speaking formally. In other words, the phrasing of the tenth commandment does not exclude women from being guilty of covetous behavior, and thus the sin of breaking that commandment; instead, the phrasing includes them.
Put quite simply, there is no inconsistency within the Word, merely with human understanding and comprehension of the message therein.
After this second round of questioning, prayer, reflection and meditation, I really needed to understand more about the WHY and the HOW behind my own misunderstanding of such a simple concept. This is how that particular exchange went.
1. How do I explain my error in understanding?
I can explain it through two contributing factors- Tradition and failure to study.
a. Tradition. Tradition states and dictates that women cannot be in any sort of official church leadership based entirely upon the phrasing of the passages in question. There are some who state that women cannot be in any sort of leadership at all, based upon the same passages. This, however, is a case of human reasoning shaping the Scriptural understanding, rather than the other way around. Tradition does not take into account any other factor except letter of the law; thus, to challenge anything tradition states is bordering upon heresy. (One reason I’m sooooo popular among the Catholic crowd!)
b. Failure to study. This is not to say that I did not study at all; due to tradition, however, I’d only ever studied and read these portions through the lens of preconceived notions and ideas. I never truly allowed the Spirit of God to open this up, because my heart and mind were so set against it. Proper study, however, led me to understand the importance of context.
For instance, one of the most famous supporting Scriptures for women not holding church leadership is written by Paul, who writes “I do not allow women to teach men.” Taken without context, it literally forbids women to teach any but women. Taken with minor context, we understand that women can teach, but are not meant to actually do so in a pastoral or similar fashion.
However, proper context shows the situation to which Paul was writing. At the time, the early followers of Christ were worshiping together on the first day of the week, (Sunday), and gathering together with Jews in synagogue or temple on Sabbath (Saturday). Bearing in mind that Paul also wrote a great deal more on behavior in this same grouping of letters, culminating with “whatever you do, live at peace with one another,” (paraphrased), we must understand that there was a specific situation he was addressing. The question, then, is what was that situation?
We discover later on that women were taking the God-given freedom they’d been granted and attempting to stand up to teach the men; not something out of the ordinary in the rest of the Bible, really. Yet, Paul cautions against it- Why? Because the only place in Jewish community where a woman was not allowed to speak was within synagogue/temple on Sabbath.
Throughout the Talmud, even, there are cases wherein a woman’s testimony was heard and taken over that of a man. Within the Bible itself, we find women teaching men throughout the history of Israel. Thus, this section is situation specific, yet it has sadly been twisted out of context and used to suit the whims of a thoroughly male dominated world for quite some time. (Remember that Eve was not created from the foot; woman was not made to be dominated, but led.)
Well…. I just looked back and realized that I’m writing a book. If you’re interested in discussing this further, I’ll continue, but for now I’ll end by simply saying that I believe there are very good, sound and Scriptural reasons for both views: I just believe, as does everyone with firm conviction, that those I hold are the right ones. lol Fortunately, this is not an issue where differences threaten salvation, so we are free to disagree and discuss.
“As iron sharpens iron.” God bless, BaE!
Beginning and End says
I really don’t think we have to overthink this issue so much. The 10th Commandments make a gender specific reference with respect to a neighbor’s wife. So what does that mean? Precisely what it says. Maybe The Lord felt the need to stress this to men. Again, we know, as the verses I cited above show, that God does indeed make gender-specific references and laws when He sees fit.
As for the idea of tradition entering Scripture, I just think it all comes back to this:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. – 2Timothy 3:16-17.
God wrote the Bible, not men. So to say that traditions or the issues of Paul’s time affected his writing is to say his writings were not God-breathed. He was merely the vessel to record what God saw fit. This is one of the major lines of demarcation in the church today. But I fall on the side of believing that 100%.
As I said, there were prophetesses in the Old and New testaments. Nowhere in the Bible does it say a prophet shall only be male. So God’s order was not twisted or warped. And from a plain reading of Joshua 4, Deborah was not the leader of the nation. God was. She also did not lead the army, Barak did. Was she used in a powerful way? Absolutely. Was she used in a way that contradicted scripture? No. And she specifically deferred all leadership of the military to Barak. Of all the judges Deborah was not a “deliverer.” Why? Because she did not fight nor did she lead an army. Deborah was faithful and Biblical in the role ordained for her. If anything, her entire account just remphasizes how much she respected God’s order. She was clearly a famous and influential person. Yet she did not usurp a man. And in her own song, she calls herself a “mother of Israel.”
But let’s go to the actual verse itself:
“This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) — 1 Timohty 3:1-5.
Verse 5 gives a re-emphasis that this is talking about a role for a man. Just as he is head of the house, as ordained by God, he should be head of the church of God. The scripture is very, very clear. How else can you interpret when the reasoning listed is based on the gender-specific role of man as head of a household? I would assume you still agree that is God’s order for the home, right??
“Women not teaching” — I just want to touch on this verse you mentioned. Let’s look at the whole chapter to get the context:
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. – 1 Timothy 3.
Notice Paul gives a specific reason for why woman are not to teach or usurp authority over the man. And it has nothing to do with tradition, culture, Talmud, etc. He then goes on to note that the benefit women uniquely get as women is that they can have children. How do you interpret these verses? I mean, Paul is providing the reason here. If it is wrong or somehow obsolete, you should explain why.
And I’m always down to sharpen iron bro. God bless.
You must also remember that when this word was given, the scriptures were written in gender form because only the men were part of the reading of the scriptures in the temple. T”he women were required to be withdraw and silent. Therefore, it was the man’s responsibility to translate the scriptures and apply the standards within their own homes.
Beginning and End says
BTW- This discussion clearly warrants its own article so be on the lookout for that!
Looking forward to it!
Oh, yes… The part about Adam and Eve.
Because we believe that all Scripture is God-breathed, (which I do), we tend to discount the reasons for the letters within the New Testament. Just as an example: What Scripture was Paul referencing when he was writing?
The part about Adam and Eve, coming back to topic, is of great interest to me. Paul writes that the transgression was upon Eve, not Adam. Yet, going back to Genesis, the understanding that they were “naked” did not dawn until Adam ate. So, Eve may have been deceived by the serpent, but it was Adam that brought the entire world into chaos.
Now, Paul was a student of the Law, but also of the entire Scripture. He would have known this. So why, then, would he make such a statement- Especially when speaking to followers of Christ who are no longer “bound unto the law?” The only answer that actually stands with full Scriptural support is that which comes with an understanding of history and culture: That is a uniquely Jewish teaching, and as such, Paul was addressing matters in light of the Christians’ presence among the unsaved Jews.
Again, looking forward to this article, as I think we’ll have a great deal to talk about; and who knows… Perhaps even get a really large discussion going as a result!!
Deleted at request of poster.
Wow, um… When I stated I was writing a book, I was actually stating that I had written a very long comment.
With that said, I am writing one that looks at this and other issues within the church, (and have been intending on asking BaE to give his contrasting views for it as well), so I’ll be sure to let you know when that has been released.
Can I reach you at tropaagud.dk?
(Sorry for this, BaE- Kind of took me by surprise!)
Beginning and End says
No worries at all. The poster asked for her post to be removed, which I obliged. But so you know, once you put thoughts out there as doctrine for others to learn from (as I do as well), you are now responsible to God. So again, I urge you to go to Scripture on this issue of female pastors because you are teaching a doctrine that I believe contradicts God’s Word.
Oh, no worries. I’m actually putting it together as more of a “both sides” deal, which will allow the reader to decide for themselves.
And for the record, I believe it’s in line with God’s Word. 😉
Beginning and End says
Ha ha. And what verse would that be?
Would you please delete my comment?
Beginning and End says
I thought we’d already gotten into that! lol
I’ll be getting you that chapter as soon as it’s written so you can give a rebuttal– If you’re interested.
Let me know about other theological differences you’d be interested in weighing in on as well. I’m trying to contact James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries to do a rebuttal of KJV Only doctrine… I’m not sure where you stand on that, but just giving you an idea of what all will be in this compilation project.
Shire biblical truth, to God be the glory. Great work B&E.
Deborah Correia says
My name is Deborah. GOD has spoken direct;y to me as well and given me many dreams and visions.
I believe that he is coming soon as he is getting to the four corners of the world and mans sin is an abomination beyond human control. It is now only for GOD to d=save HIS people as we ourselves can only call upon our Father to intervene and HIS SON to SAVE the WORLD.
Dear GOD please help the people in your WORLD we need your LOVE.
Thank you for hearing my prayer
i want that book of deborah the mother of israel i am an indian
Straight Gate Narrow Road says
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. – 1 Timothy 3.
Just thought I would join the discussion.
Now pertaining to the above verse in Timothy. The way I see it Paul is referring to women who are married not to DOMINATE their husband because women bare children to just one man or should and it says if THEY continue in faith and charity………the THEY meaning husband and wife. Now this church was particularly notorious for the worship of female sexuality as seen in todays music videos so the women were spoiled are used to been worshiped as Goddess’s……….hence the name that men use for strippers these day. Can you imagine dating Nikki Minja or Maddonna both who are women used to being worshipped.
God in actual fact detests ALL forms of dominating behaviour. If we look to the Corinth were the men where attempting to force the women to cover their heads Paul rebukes the men and states that “we have no such traditions”
To the two disciples who’s mother wanted them to sit at the right hand of God and be ABOVE everybody else……to be exalted Jesus says it cannot be so.
In Corinthians God also explains why the disciples where chosen………not because they were men but because they were WEAK, FOOLISH and DESPISED things of world………..why……….SO THAT NO MAN MAY BOAST IN HIS PRESENCE.
No many to boast in his presence!!!………….So the only thing you can say when you see JESUS is NOT……….Lord I was a great leader a pastor in your church…………..no……no…….so the only thing you can say is…………….LORD I AM A SINNER AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD FORGIVE ME……….that’s the ONLY thing any of us can say to Christ.
THERE ARE NO LEADERS IN THE LORDS CHURCH………..ONLY SERVANTS.
Straight Gate Narrow Road says
How does that saying go we all learnt as children………TO MANY CHIEFS AND NOT ENOUGH INDIANS. in the church its TOO MANY LEADERS AND NOT ENOUGH SERVANTS.
Aaron Wauters says
Hey Cosmic babies!
With exeption to “Deborah” the female poster, none of you have clue what you are talking about. I am not going to pretend I’m a Christian because after extensive soul searching I never broke with Jesus and his message of all prevadeing love, personal sacrifice, and the offering of salvation to all, both to the wise, those who want wisdom, and even those without the slightest interest in wisdom or righteousness; or with what I believe to be the father in heaven who is the designer of the program of light, the one who’s plan it is to make earth resemble heaven, and it is my detication to the light, the truth, and what I perceive to be all prevading compassion that led me never away from Jesus, but away from “the god of this world”, his system of death and slavery and most important to me is that his definition of right and wrong just don’t cut it, not only does it not cut it, but it does not meet the standards of a truely God concious society and we have all been raised in it. Righteousness and kindness, so many think that they must be opposed, if you are righteous, than you must see everyone else as condemned, if you are compassionate, you must be a weakling and a fool……..I don’t agree with all of that. I believe in both love and justice the problem is that just as in the days of Deborah no one really knows right from wrong because they have not been given the proper education, thus it is not their fault but that of the rulers, for it is they who have the power to make laws and condition civilization, unfourchunatley they are not “like the sun” as they should be, instead they are exactly like the “wicked shepards” that the prophets talked about, leading everyone into a ditch, for the people are like sheep, they follow the leader, and like sheep they can be led to darkness or light by the superiors.
For this reason I stand opposed to much of what I find in the old testament and especially in Paul’s letters.
In most cultures female preistesses represented fertility, something involving nature, sometimes as objects of sex, sometimes as oracles, most of the time they were feminine in all their ways even if they were strong individuals. Now the Hebrews were a people of prophesy and it should come as no supprize that it’s leading woman was a prophet and “wisdom” who is described as a she in proverbs has a very godly way about her, and she is feminine but also has the firey power of the father and looks forward to the rulership of the son, so she chooses Solomon the man of peace as her mouthpiece and he speaks her words perfectly.
Now, I love women, and I support feminism primarily because the nature of most “males” could use a little feminine upgradeing, and because so many men are plain evil and by supporting feminism I am preventing them from any form of authority……I support feminism in the war on evil, and so many men deserve 0 respect because they are simply beasts, they are not men and so women should rule over them, at least unitll or unless they show some genuine concern about life. In times of war on the sons of men, feminism is a very useful tool to do battle against a evil foe.
Feminists who today would like to make female figures in the Bible feminist figures would be disapointed if they could meet this woman, because the daughter of zion is not a feminist, she is a very powerful woman, but she reports only to the best men, the ones who are worthy of the father, and she would not like feminism at all. Also many people from both the religious and secular worlds do not understand anything about Hebrew culture thousands of years ago, they had a system set up, but when they could see extrordinary qualites, they put they system of government aside, and so the woman who rose to prominence throughout the whole old testament was a very special soul, and while she preffered to live life as a woman, in peace, undefiled, when the sons of men became a problem, she could judge them accurately. She was no ordinary woman, but a very exeptional woman with power that niether women nor men comprehend but that which they must….it is femininity backed up by masculine force……(personally I like girly girls and would not want her as a girl friend, but as freind it would be awesome) She loves animals and is willing to war against the sons of men to protect them, she loved her Israel and was willing to go to war against those who threatened her, on the other hand she also judged her own people…..so she is not mearly “nice like a girl”…..and not mealry “the perfect image of a girl doing masculine things”……she destroys the falsehoods of feminism, she does not claim that the niceness of women can save the world, and she does not revel in a masculine matter…..but she relishess in righteousness, and laughs at the fools, and she looks to the day when her foes are crushed and both masculine righteousness and feminine kindness are put in their right place and not confused. Only animals deserve “feminine kindness”, with humans it must be earned by learning and living righteousness.
She loves like a woman, and defends her love with unimaginable violence!
The bloodline of Abraham and Sarah produced many prophets, eventually establishing a royal family under David, a bloodline that although was de-throned when Pompei invaded Israel still kept it’s tradition. So, my “wise” answer to the gentleman who quoted Timothy is that for one none of Paul’s words don’t have any effect on me and pious Christians should not even bother about him, he is for the most fallen, he is their to keep addicts away from the rolercoaster that is the illusion and materiality of everyday life, he is their to get them off drugs, out of the whore houses and away from idols, he has no authority over people who have no problems, be they people who strive for God or atheists.
Paul had nothing to offer the Essenes who lived life so pure it can be compared to nothing else, even historians said “they were race unto themselves”……they did not worship idols, they did not have sex outside of marrige, they did not do whatever the drugs of that time where, they perfectly sober, clean, and avid for wisdom.
Paul had problems, and people with problems were the people he needed.
Now, silence is the only way to hear God, all of us, male and female need to learn silence, but their is also a time to speak up. Wisdom who spoke through Solomon had something to say, and all of the women of the old testament claimed they would “laugh at the fools” when they realize that “she was right”. As we all know, Hebrew religion was very male dominated, they simply did not trust women to handle things besides a home and raising children, but they were also a very perceptive people, and they could see when someone was special be they a woman or a gentile, they could see people who had qualities that transcended their birth……this is why Jesus was so popular with the Pharisess as a child, because he was only 12, and yet his knowlege of scripture, God’s law, and things that would come out of his mouth proved that his age held no weight, because these older men were learning from him. So, yes, men are supposed to lead faithfully, but if they cannot do it, then women must take the lead, and in a world where adults are enslaved, children, while being fully obedient to the laws of the land and their parents, must lead in spirit and remind adults of the simplicity of Jesus and wisdom, and that to follow God entails 0 faith in any religion, it is about following your inner concience, understanding the correct sacrifice, and making it with no guilt knowing that you are defying the powers of evil and wickedness…..never let the perfect be the enemy of the good, it does not mean you don’t strive for perfection, it just means that you don’t allow the powers of darkness “to not save a animals life on the sabbath”……yes we strive for perfection and keeping the sabbath is apart of that detication, however, it cannot come in the way of righteousness, mercy, love, and LIFE. Whatch a animal, a cheetah when it is sitting and it closes it’s eyes, you can see it allowing the life force to flow, with human life we can have both that blissful force of life and the knowlege and wisdom of the Lord, all is up to us now, each one of us as individuals, don’t look for the rulers to help you because they never cared about you, and their ansestors did not care, and those who brought Europe Christianity did not care about those people, and only you have the power to care for and about yourself, only if you are interested in living a life of love and truth will you find it in all it’s fullness, if you are not interested you can still live by the laws of nature and you will not complain when in distress as all healthy pagan peoples, but if you want something more, than you need to slowly change everything you do. Never get discouraged, and never let your mistakes take up your time, and slowly you must rise above regret and keep going. Next step is charity, now I know this is the most silly part of it, and so many are just too busy…..and rightfully so…..for we are all living like animals and each has to work hard so why give some homeless person something that you worked hard to earn……..I agree with you!!!!!!!
You can start by feeding animals, it is a great form of charity and you don’t have to deal with the hypocracy of helping another human, in silence and tranquility you can peacefully feed the birds, a squerrle, a homless dog or cat, and you will feel very good, and after years of this you may not feel it all that hypocrital to buy some mashed potatos with gravy to a homeless person. Personally I do charity for animals and humans and have found great strenghth in it, but you must serve animals too or you will not receive all the blessings that God and nature has for you………love…….and strenghth, the love comes from God, and strenghth through the laws of nature, when you mix them it produces a incorruptible force, and this is the holy spirit, it has to do with your charity, and animals too need your help, they to long to return to the garden, they to must struggle in this world just to survive and be able to enjoy a moment in the sun, which gives all life, Jesus’s love is like the sun, it is for all, it does not discriminate, it therfor includes all living creatures. Granted, some are conditioned to only serve humans, others are conditioned to only serve animals, but most people just have not really learned how to activate compassion throughout themselves, when these majority of people who really have not much if any sympathy for any living creature be it a human or a four legged friend find this compassion within themselves, they will be the best of them all.
“You must eat of the bread and the wine of wisdom, you must take in the mix that she has prepared”
Also…….the civilization of the future must be vegetarian or there is no possiblity of Christ’s kingdom, this means everyone, all of you must prepare to cut meat out of your diet, this can be done slowly, start by eating less meat, this will clean and clear your receptors as you prepare your new body, you will live in Christ, and wisdom will live in you, and eventually you become vegetarian, sometimes for a month, sometimes for a week, most experimentors in vegetarianism go for 5 years and then stop, because their physiology tells them they need meat, when this happens and you “break your pride” do not be discouraged, and let no one, especially other vegetarians tell you your no good, also….don’t give up! When you need meat you know it, your body tells you, so you eat it, and you feel better, you feel as though your spiritual fast is now over, but keep trying. Others have no problem giving up flesh foods.
Vegetarian is the diet of the angels, and as we wear a new body we must feed it the food it needs, no one ever describes the diet of these great Israelite women leaders but I know they were vegetarians, and Sarah the mother of Israel, the nations, and the consle of kings (“all kings are to be of her”) “prepared food that was fit for the angles”….that was vegetarian food. Abraham and Sarah were the inventors of the idea of Israel, in the mist of the barbarity of the world around them they decided to create their own world based on truth and love, they wanted the program of light and life to be forever in the hearts and minds of not only the people they were to create, but also, eventually for all mankind, and all those with civilizations and those brought into and raised in them.
So, ending this post I will reference women once again, one is struck by the strength of Hebrew women
in the old testament, they are very intelegent, Sarah……kicking out Ishmael…that shows strength…..also we find this “wisdom” that seems to be a trait of the matriarch of Judaism (Sarah) and all the great female figures that come after her, and this power of hebrew women was the source of power for all the great hebrew men of the old testament, from the strength of David to the peacefull nature of Solomon “wisdom” is present, she delights in Solomon’s peacfull nature, and rejoices in David’s victories.
Saul was the spiritual enemy of David, he was jealous, inferior, and afraid of David’s wisdom. Saul’s desendents always held hostility for the Davidic Royal family, and geuss what, Jesus was a member of that family, respected, but also envied specifically from the desendents of Saul, and Saul of tarsus was one of them, and his “conversion” was only a cover for his envy of the family whose bloodline was creative, musical, spiritual, and popular with the ladies, not on account of material wealth as was with Saul and all those like him, but from the humble, honest, and simple way that the Davidic family conducted themselves.
“Ask the father for wisdom, and he will give liberaly”
“resist the devil, and he will flee from you”
“faith without works is dead, being alone”
Get to the charity! Start with animals!
So what you’re saying is, in essence, is that you’re a Deist in the order of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin; that you are a supporter of feminism; and that you think we’re all morons.
Did I get it basically right?
If this is what you think, specifically that last part, you really need to read through some of these comments again.
Aaron Wauters says
Deism, The Truths and Falsehoods of Feminism, works and faith
I am not a deist because I don’t think that people NEED to believe in God to have or aquire morals.
When the masons started, they had a requirement, you needed to believe in God, unlike the Christians they did not demand that a member be a Christian, they just made it clear that to be a mason you needed to believe in God. I have not studied deism much, but I think I remember that they believed in the powers of nature, I don’t know if they believed in God or not. Thomas Jefferson, you are right about that, his opinion on Jesus and the new testament was identical to mine, infact he ripped all of Paul’s letters out and used them for fire starter, also he took out ALL the miracles, leaving nothing but the sayings of Jesus, I wouldn’t call him a deist though.
First of all, in case any feminists are reading this, we must admit that just as there are men who are smart, kind and just, and others who are the opposite, so there are women who are physically and mentaly strong, and superior to men and most women. I know as I write this being a man I can only speculate, and I invite any feminists to punish me if I am wrong about anything.
In regards to feminisim, come on, no matter what you call it, as a man, in my deepest self i know from experience in relationships that women really have the power to hurt us, especially when they cheat, we don’t neccisarily cry like they do (not as loudly anyway), but it hurts, no matter how strong we are physically, girls have power to really make a man feel small, this needs no feminism, it is the way it is, it is a fact.
Throughout most of the picture men generally get over on women, much of this is because men have to struggle so much, so they take out their frustration on their girl who “talks too much”, but at the end we are all weak, and at the end the woman wins, and that is when it hurts the most, it is a let down and supprize for most men who have to go through it, also at the end the elect and saints win, and the wicked are condemed, this condemnation is a big suprize to them as well, for they have ruled for thousands of years, all for it to come to a end. Those who won will lose, and the those who lost unfairly will win, be they saints or women.
On our exterior, men are truly stronger, in our everyday life, in our waking state we are in control. When a women is scared, nervous, and just being a woman they want a strong man who is free from all emotion, fearless, and willing to protect them from the cruel world, this is when women love men the most, when we are being men.
However, there are times when we need support too, and that is where woman comes in, because deep down they have strength, and deep down, we are very weak, only when circumstances are very bad, and only when man is weak, are woman forced to find their strength, and when they do they find that they are very strong, even stronger then men.
Likewise, only when men are forced to find their weakness does it show itself, only when we have tried everything, and we are still continually losing to we finally break down, this is not good.
So we as men can pretend we are in control, but who is really in control? Even if God is male, and created the earth, all peoples called the earth mother, because it gave life and could take it away, so what God has created has the power to take us out. God created man first, but latter created woman as a helper, she was created to see what we could not, she views us from a distance, whatching us, knowing we are unaware, in this way she is wisdom; men run the world of the outside so we don’t often contemplate the world of the inside, especially the place of the spirit, but woman is always there.
Also if she is a good woman she will nurture our best traits, even so, a woman cannot teach a man how to be a man, a man’s strength is different from a woman’s strength, thus feminism has created many delinquents because they never had a father. A woman does not know what a man is, any more than a man knows what a woman is. Women are there to nurture us when we are already doing well, at our best. When we are weak, woman cannot offer us much, in her heart she might say to herself “how can I help him being a woman?” Thus they have compassion for weak men, they can listen and attend but they cannot help him be a man. Even Deborah herself could not help a weak man, thus when barak confessed that he could not fight without her, she did not deny him, she said sure, “I’ll fight with you, but the honour will not be yours”. This also applies to anyone, it is a common piece of wisdom, if you want another to help you, chances are they will take your glory, it is a common tail.
A women can only offer a weak man civility. Where men are weak women are strong, and where women are weak men are called upon to be strong. On our exteriors, men are rational, strong, and fearless, and on the exteriors of women they want someone to be what they are not both deep inside and on the surface: emotionally unbound. Even Deborah, could rise above her eccentricities and emotions and not only leave the palm tree and actually fight, but win. She needed men to be strong, to fight, and not “live in the world of the interior” but to be loyal to the outer world which must be defended against hostile forces, women in their natural state need men to defend reality, the physical world, that which you can see with your physical eyes, but secretly in the hearts they desire a man with spiritual understanding, and in touch with the interior world of the spirit, but just the spirit isn’t enough, what they really want is a man able to defend the physical world, a physicaly strong man, who when he returns home is spiritual and in touch with his interior self, the heart. Back to Deborah, even though she was a woman and a eccentric, she was born with the natural gift to be able to perform masculine tasks very well, because of her wisdom and exelent-perfect knowlege of the father, even better than men because she had the father’s spirit in her heart and mind, much like King David, she was as untouchable as him. The last thing she wanted was a society of WEAK men, in this way, if she were around today she would be completely against feminism, and she would not like the effect it has had on women. She saw the faults of men, but she also did not like many things about some women, particuraly the vanity, but then she hated the vainity of much men as well. She did not relate to the average woman very much, she was here for a different purpose, not mearly to raise a family, her perfect knowlege of the father allowed her to execute judgment in a way no one else could, because she was a woman, she put all her emotions into the battle, thus she was the truest hero in history, because when she fought, she fought with everything, as a woman fights……without “reasonableness”, without what the world calls logic, she fought as a mother fights for her children, without pity for the enemy, hell hath no fury like a woman’s scorn, the same goes for her, that was how much she loved the father, her people, and the wellbeing of all creation……her world was not one of the spirit, she did not dwell on heaven, she focused on creation, her people, and life itself, only it’s well being concerned her and nothing else, when we follow her lead, the world of the spirit follows without delay. She knew where women were superior to men, that of pretator to prey, men have always thought themselves to be the hunters, primaly, women are the hunters of men, they seek the man they know will provide the best future for them and their children, in the case of Deborah she wanted men who would provide a good future for all life for she was a prophetess, a military leader, and a wife, she had that combination of femininity and masculinity that you rarely see, both a tree huger and a warrior, this is what all of us, men and women should aspire to be.
She also knew where men are superior to women, and most of all, she knew that she herself in all her strength was nothing but a woman, and I think she was way to humble, for she was extrordinary and yet she always gave praise only to Jakob the Holy One Of Israel, here avenger and took way too little credit for herself.
Even as strong as she was, even though she knew that her information was something that was important, her prophesies meant less to her that the victory of Israel, if Jakob had a disagreement with her, she would heel to him, that was how much he meant to her, he was everything. To her the victory of Israel was everything, and her prophetic nature was Israel’s light, she sincerly wanted Israel to be a light to the world, she wanted them to be vegetarians, she wanted them to serve life and only life, this was what Israel meant for her, and this is why she fought so hard, she was also a nationalist and thus was loyal to her nation even when they fell short of her glory. Her prophesies where directed to men, because they are ones who make society.
If men continue being too weak when they should be strong, and way to strong when they should be meek, feminism will continue, and neither men nor women will truly be happy, they will not be their natural self, men will feel weak and women will accept the role of chastizer, but the sacrifice will be made, the way to prevent this sacrifice is to listen up and be strong, and women can be strong when they have to be, but they should not have to be, they should be allowed to be women, just as men should be allowed to be men. If men act up, when they’re time is up they will be very weak, and women will be forced to be strong, just as men will be forced to be weak.
And women will wear a demonic smile as they treat men as slaves, and the Lord will allow it all.
On our higher spiritual nature, neither men nor women want this, but as long as time continues, and as long as the game ceases to end, women will continue to rise in power, and dumb men will simply be left out, as a law of nature, as long as men lie to maintain their position of power, the more the Lord will intervene and allow women to walk over their failures.
Many women are certainly cut out for men’s jobs, if they have the ability and the interest, moreover the nature, it should be theirs, especially if the men are screwing everything up. Should not Hillary and the president of Germany say it all? Some women are cut out for men’s jobs, and to train girls to be smart and strong is a good thing, however it is also good to promote the gentle innocent nature that is the majority of women when they do not come into contact with society and all it’s dangers, which in order to prevent they must be smart, wise and strong, they need to be able to defend themselves in a world full of danger, especially in times like these, all women at this time, should aspire to be Deborah and the age of innocence is over, all at this time should be wise as serpents and as harmless as doves.
Even though the future will be strong and kind, both genders will be both strong and kind, today most grown women who have already been formed by the way of the past don’t want the man’s job forced on them. They want the luxury to show their talents, and they love to discover what they are capable of, when they practice they find that at many things they are just as good, if not better than men. Likewise men should not be forced to talk to trees and animals all day, it should be something we do on our time off, when our work is done. So women should not be forced to do all the things men are expected to do, they want it as a luxury.
All that being said, all women, like all men are not the same. Some women do better in masculine affairs, and they need no feminism, it is their nature, and although feminism can make average women like the strongest women it still entails education, because it does not come naturaly to them as it does to women who are like that by nature, and Deborah, although she was herself very strong, did not want the masses of women trained to be like men, ironically she wanted people to be true to their nature and not change it, she wanted women doing women things, and men doing manly things, she was a exeption and she admitted it, no to her all people, men and women were infants, and though she did not want women being like men, she did hope that when the fighting was over, that males would get in touch with the kindness of femininity of which Jesus was the embodiment, (remember Jesus also had the knowlege of the father as did Deborah, so he had both feminine wisdom and fatherly knowlege, he had the power of the father, and the love of a mother, this is what made him so unique, as was Deborah) this is why she was not only a warrior, she was also a prophet, a judge. Her masculinity only showed itself in times of turmoil, when she had to fight, judge, and prophesy, but when things were fine, and she needed not to fight, or to judge, or to prophesy, at times of peace she was very feminine, thus she was aware that her masculine role was only needed in times of trouble, thus she resented the onbligation and hated those from the bottom of her heart who forced her to play that role. (All Artists and free spirits agree with her, we hate being forced to be tough, we preffer to paint, write, play music or whatever, creative stuff, destruction is not our delight and only of interest to people who enjoy it, and they are not cool people at all, they are drags) She knew what women were, just as she knew what men are.
But moreover what they could be.
She wanted them to maintain their strength and never become weaklings, and anything that would cause them to be weaklings she would oppose, thus she would oppose feminism, even though feminists would like to use her as a example, she would rebel against that with all her strength. For no one “taught” her to be strong, she always was strong, just as she was always holy, and her agent Jakob the Holy One of Israel was the same way, but she discovered her holiness even before him, for she was with God from the beggining as a craftsman, so she knew him first, and like no other.
Men and women are different and can be nothing but different, in this regard, feminism lies when they say there is no difference. The meaness that feminism teaches women can end the day men finally act as men, and not as dumb beasts. The key is to expect nothing, when you humble yourself in that fashion, women generally attend to you out of respect and then they can be what they are: nurturers on their light side.
Again to any feminists reading this, I understand your struggle to get women strong so that men can no longer oppress them physically and mentally.
Anyway back to women:
Also, they are to be won, they only go with winners, girls don’t like losers. Women are strange, who can figure them out? This is why they may make a man fall in love with them, then if a stronger man comes along they drop you…….and your stuck there thinking “I thought this was love?”…..nope, you were possesed by her life giving energy, and she was mearlly enjoying your death energy, then when a man came along with a stronger death energy, she surrendured and dumped you. Men are
negetive, and woman are positive, that is why they are attracted to our negetivity, as we a re attracted to they’re positive energy, we are made of rocks, they are made of water, water that nurtures and posesses a man. Men and women are different, and feminists are wrong to say otherwise, we are different in every way.
When a woman loves a man, she loves the person, when we love a woman, we are possesed by they’re chemicals, they become apart of us, they are in our heart and cannot leave. Women’s hearts can beat away, but when we lose our woman, it feels as though our heart has stopped beating, and we wonder why it continues, I guess women must be the same, but they seem to be able to wash off a relationship easier than men, also when they break up, although they are in much pain, can still hang out with their friends, they know that is what they need, but when a guy gets dumped by a girl, he may not hang with his friends for months. When a man cheats on a woman, and she finds out, what does she ask? “Do you love her”….men generally say no, I love only you baby…..that is the wrong answer, because although the woman is hurt, she rises above her personal feelings, and she wants to know if you are to be respected, if you say that you don’t love the girl, she loses all respect for you, she sees you as beast, and she will never respect you. Also it is fear of love which is the key to survival, a trait men need to survive in this cruel world, which causes a man to give that response, because we don’t want to say….oh yes we are certainly in love, also, the women who he really clings to is his girl, and he does not want her to think he loves another, so he say’s he only loves her, which is true, but it does not suffice. We as men don’t care if she loves the man or not, if she does than we are mad, if she mearly enjoyed herself with a stronger fellow, it makes us feel even worse. Chemically we become possessed by her and lose all logic. Thus we cannot let go of her, we can no longer hang with friends, and it takes a while before we settle. We need them, but they don’t really need us, women were designed to be able to take all kinds of hardships, also ones men could not take, they give birth, so pain and love are no strangers to them, they are able to bear that which men cannot, thus they shake off a man quickly, however hurt they are, they move on. While their with us they need us, but heel to logic quickly when concerning a man and know how and when to leave us. Have you ever tried to apologize to a girl? She exepts it quickly, because she knows what is gone and does not look back generally, she accepts fate and moves on, but we we want to keep going back, we need to apologize, we want to be forgiven, but what we fail to realize is that we already destroyed her on some level, and what is gone cannot be put back. They are what possesses us, they are the tonic, they are the drug, and they know it, they know we were alone and unaware until they came and put us under their spell, they know that. When a woman is possessed by a man, she knows what it is, (she say’s to herself “this man has really got me” but she knows it, she knows what is happening) when we are possessed by a woman, especially for the first time we have no idea what is going on, but she does.
So I am not gonna go on about all that.
To your last comment, I do not think your all morons, I don’t think any of you are morons, where would we be without faith? When people said the earth was round and not flat, it was faith based on a thesis, and there was no concrete proof at the time when the conclusion was drawn. People with faith are much smarter than people without, the question is not whether or not you are smart, the real question is what is the effect, in other words what is the fruit? Is it good or bad? Personally it may be benifical to you, but what effect has it had on the world? Surley many atheist rulers were grim, but why compare yourselves to them? Today, atheists are both rational and compassionate, most of them, so regardless of what they believe or do not believe, their works, their fruit is generally good, they regard life rather than death, infact they regard it so much that they think that’s all there is!
Remember when Jesus met a Roman soldjer, he did not care that he was a heathen, a pagan, to him this pagan was more sincere than many of his own people who although were “smart” did not have their heart in the right place, not to mention the fact that many of their works were a deviation from their own Creator.
Faith is personal, it a relationship between you and what you perceive to be God, whatever that may be, it is a inner feeling and cannot be proven scientifically, this is why it is said faith without works is dead, because it is alone, the outer world does not know you, they only know you through your works. So no one has the right to judge another, but through your works you will be judged, and your works show what is really in your heart, so you will be judged by what you do. If someone has meaness in their heart, and seriously wants that changed, all they have to do is animal charity, I would say for animals and humans, I say animals because it is the only one which truly makes you strong. Animals like humans have medephysical deva’s that whatch out for them, they are very powerful, and the forces of nature and all the animal kingdoms have much more power than humans, so when you show them kindness, they pay you back with good health, when the animal deva’s consider you a friend they give you protection. Helping another human is alright, but it will not make you strong, and very few women seriously respect men who help the homeless although should, they must reject losers, and they can’t respect a man who helps a loser, this is a law of nature. It is also important to help your fellow humans, if you see a homeless man buy him some food, preferable vegetarian food, not because he is not fit to eat “real food”, but because the earth provides vegetarian food virtually free, it is basically free food, where’as animal food requires slaughter, and the man who kills it is the only one who is truly entitled to it. And he is the most cursed of all and deserves to have it all, and you don’t want what he slaughtered anyway, so let him keep it all. If you do this, what you do is put in your heart like savings, and eventually, after about five years you will notice that your heart has changed, it will grow three times (I mean that you will feel much light fill your heart, it will come rushing in, you won’t be able to stop it, and your heart will feel bigger and so will you, you will give yourself a new heart, and you will feel it strong and alive in a way unimaginable, and when you look back, it will seem as though your heart was much smaller when you were mean, you will feel as though you were dark, and this darkness will suddenly be filled with light) and you will not know sickness or disease, you will not age, and you will be a new creature and will attain angel hood, so faith is what motivates you, and that faith is by a genuine desire to be a different person, so you do the charity expecting nothing, and yet you will be given everything. Also girls will be irresistably attracted to you, it’s amazing, just try it.
It is worth it.
Women will only be irresistably attracted to you if you do charity for animals, charity for humans does not attract women, because it is feminine and alone, with no fatherly power, but a man who feeds animals will attract the girls, because it is love and power mixed, and this is what drives women crazy. Animals have power, when you serve them you get power.
With gladness I write to you
Aaron Wauters says
I emailed Deborah:
I am a Solomonist in every sense of the word, his peacefulness, (ovcourse his love of women), his connection to wisdom, all of it I am very interested in. I am 28 and in a rock band with my father and I bring the peacefulness of Solomon and and might of David into the music we play. I have been interested in the female figures in the Bible for awhile now, and one thing that struck me right away was the “power of the father” that these women had, including wisdom, Solomon’s inspiration. They’re judgments are so valid, they are not like the various goddesses of the ancient world, many of whom represented fertility, birth, and sex, the “woman” in the old testament would put the girls in their place right along with the men! These were super women!……The woman of Judaism is just what she was said to be, she is obviously the feminine half of God himself, and so the power of the father in heaven is so clear in their judgments! She expresses the human desire for perfection, righteousness, and judgment, also offering wisdom to any man or woman who is interested, always ready to forgive a transgressor when he or she turns away from it, her speeches are directed to the sons of men!
She, the daughter of Israel, the daughter of Zion, wisdom, the feminine half of God judges the sons of men, and gives them good advice, if only they would listen to her, most are fools and never will, they will wait until it’s too late, then they will cry out for her mercy, but she will laugh at them just like she said she would……her only concern being all the suffering that occured on account of their foolishness, with no concern or pity for their suffering, on the contary she will watch them pay and laugh at them…….she ain’t Jesus, that’s not her job, her job is to give sound advice, and then judge those who reject her judgment and mercy.
Anyway I don’t need to go on about it but I would be honoured if you would see what I wrote for you on the website entitled “Deborah, a strong woman of God”…..it is the last post, I spent some time typing it and I hope it will help many people, I would be very pleased if anyone actually understood what I was trying to do, what I am trying to say, but my biggest hope is that as many people as possible could see what I am saying and do what I command!
Also if you have the time and are in the mood for some good, spiritually based rockin roll you could check out our music videos, I won’t give you the details yet, but if the correspondance continues then……..oh whatever….here it is “the father and the son it all comes back to you”…….if you type all that into youtube you will come across our best video right away!…..if you do check out I sure hope you enjoy it!
“for a new heaven, and a new earth”
Aaron Wauters says
Alright, by accident I lost a hours worth of work, so I will begin again!
The basics, since I lost my perfect piece of art, I will say the basics of what I previeously wrote.
Okay, what I noticed was that all the female characters in the old testament are in reality only one woman, it is the same soul speaking, that of a woman. She has love, but she also has unlimited strength.
Deborah, Rachel, Sarah, Sheba, and wisdom are the same character, that of a very powerful woman who is loyal to her people and her father in heaven and to all living creatures. In proverbs it states that she (wisdom) was with the father from the beginning of creation and helped him as a “craftsman”, that means she helped him create the animals, which explains her detication to and love for them, for she is the mother of all living creatures in heaven and on earth.
In the new testament it says somewhere that “Sheba will judge the world”……again it is the same woman.
Judaism also calls her “the virigin of Israel”…..I will check with the original hebrew to see if the translation is correct, if it is that means that on top of being a vegetarian she was also a life-long virigin, she was untouched and pure feminine energy, she also held great masculine power from her father in heaven and the power to judge the sons of men, but she also gives advice, if one takes her advice they will benefit and inherit both spiritual and material treasure.
Jesus is to make man acceptible to her, and her agent is Jacob, the Holy one of Israel.
She never sinned, she is as beautiful and pure at 90 as she was at 22, she never changes, she requires no training and is completely self taught, the knowlege is in her and she needs no teacher.
She starts her religious life at age 4 or 5, by the time she is five she asks her parents to pack her vegetarian lunches, she remains a virgin on her own, and she is completley dedicated to her people, her agent Jacob, and her love for all animals. None of this is taught to her but all comes to her natrualy.
She wanders the physical world enjoying it in all it’s splendor and she wants the sons of men to help her maintain it and even bring light to it, so that the air, and everything with a beating heart may know and feel her love for them, this is where Jesus comes in, if he succesfuly turns humanity away from it’s cruelties and iniquities she will attend to it like she would her own people and the animals; until then she will continues to fight, and it is not nice to make her fight, because it kills her, she needs peace to accomplish her goal of activating warm love for all living creatures, only man stands in her way and this must change!
Yes, the feminine half of the father, that is she, the daughter of Israel, the daughter of Zion who salutes her Holy One Jacob!
Jesus is to fix the broken humanity, repair it so it can do no more harm, so it can live in joy and tranquility with creation and all the life therein.
Then wisdom will come to humanity, and we will eat of her bread, and drink of her wine, which she has mixed, which is a combination of strength and love!
That is the ideal Hebrew woman, and a ideal for all women and all men to aspire to, to both strong and kind, both compassionate and righteous, to be as wise as a serpent and maintain the heart of a dove
Although she preffers Jacob, Jesus fullfills her ultimate wish in the end, her basic wish, that humanity turn from their foolishness and seek truth, because untill they do this she is at war with the sons of men, and she has masculine authority from the father in heaven, the highest type of masculine authority, but she still preffers to remain feminine but will do the mans job if she has to. She does not want to be a pastor, she is a solitary creature and preffers to be alone, she does not want to give prophesy, it is for her a great pain not a great joy to be a prophet, she preffers to sit under a tree and communicate with birds than give nauseating lectures to the sons of men.
When she sees iniquity, cruelty, and debauchery she prays on Jacob, her Holy One to judge her enemies, but Jesus has the power to reform her enemies and turn them into angles of the father, and she would be very pleased if this could occur, and her beef with the sons of men would be over, only when the spirit of Jesus is followed to the letter, and only when animals are finally included in their Christian scope of love, will she be pleased, only when Judaism admits that originally their righteousness would prevent them from killing a innocent animal will she admit that she had been their mother. Judaism on grounds of righteousness, and Christianity on grounds of love must take the rights of animals into account, and show them the love, respect, and mercy that is shown to mankind through Jesus, remembering that animals have nothing to be ashamed of, but that the human race has much to learn if they want the kingdom to arrive sooner.
The power of love is finally with us, we have the power bring light, and we must bring it!
We must give Wisdom, Jesus, and Jacob a break and remember the bliss of the life force, and knowlege of righteousness according to the father in heaven, only then will we be free!
Bless you all, even if you read through this laughing all the way!
I wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
B&E and RETS . . .
I don’t claim to be anything more than a man who by the grace of God through Christ, has been a second chance in this life to serve the Lord my God and Him alone . . . though, through Christ, He also serves me by doing for me what I cannot possibly attain for myself: salvation and redemption through Christ alone.
That being said, I’m going to have to side with B&E on the specific role of pastor that is solely for “the husband of one wife” in the gender-sense biblical concept and I’m going to provide you both with a bit of evidence as to what happens when this God-breathed mandate is tampered with or compromised in even the slightest way possible:
1) When you allow for females to serve in a pastoral leadership position, you have no further ground to stand upon when objecting to either gay or lesbian men and women serving in the same pastoral position.
2) Likewise, when you allow for gay and lesbian men and women to to join in “holy” matrimony, you no longer have any solid footing to stand upon when objecting to people marrying whenever and whomever they want.
Sadly, in both scenarios we have allowed God’s word to be compromised and as such, we are seeing our current generation of believers in today’s society not being transformed by the renewing our their minds through God’s word (see also Romans 12:2) but rather, we are being conformed to the current trend of this world.
Now that the unholy matrimony of gay and lesbian men and women is almost unanimously legal nationwide, we are seeing people elsewhere either “marrying” themselves or even their pets. The perversion of God’s holy institute of marriage begins with divorce and thus has led us even further down the rabbit hole to where we currently stand today.
If that is true for the institution of marriage, what then is to stop the office of pastor from being usurped by the next generation of men and women who medically alter their own flesh through surgery and hormone supplements to request pastoral leadership positions in our churches, too???
I can only imagine the day a transgender “male” steps up in the pulpit and preaches from God’s word about how, “God created man in His own image. In the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” . . . all the while herself still possessing both a uterus and female spirit that was God-given…
That being said, those in silent support of females as pastors had better learn right now to remain just as silent when transgender clergy start to appear in our churches across America, too.
Thank you gentlemen for you time and consideration.
Hidden with God in Christ,
I’d love to get your reasoning on your two points. It appears to me as though you are equating apples to oranges, and I don’t see a single connection from one to another.
Before I answer your sincere question Mr. RETTS, let me ask you this as well: is it or is it not lawful to allow both gay and lesbian men and women to serve in ANY leadership role in a church ministry setting as defined by God’s word alone?
Once I have your honest answer to this question (a simple “yes” or “no” will suffice and nothing more) then I’ll be able to properly discern the true intentions of your heart based solely on how you respond to either compromising on God’s word or allowing yourself to be in full unwavering submission to His word instead.
“Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.” -Matthew 5:37
willow joy says
Is it possible that prophetess deborah does come back into someone now?
Lily Figueroa says
I would like to respond to the comment from beginning and end dated 10/12/12 which states: Ephesians 4 says the role of a Pastor is: “For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:” . Ephesians 4 is being misquoted. Elhesians 4 states that Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. It does Not state that job is only for pastors but for the fivefold ministry. Since there are women prophets, teachers and evangelists, according to this verse, they could perfect the saints for the work of the ministry, build them up for the edification of the church. In addition, God said that in the last days He would pour out of His Spirit to all flesh men and women and they would prophesy, which means bringing forth a message from God, from the bible. And finally the great commission is for everyone men and women as are all the gifts of the Spirit. God has always used wimen throughout history in pastoral positions. God will use anyone that is obedient and loyal to Him. God is looking for a willing heart, it is not gender based.
Mady Maguire says
I doubt many fellows would be following the “word of God” so closely if in the Bible the “word of God” said that only women should be rulers, leaders, Bishops, Pastors, Prophets etc..
Beginning and End says
Men are no better than women in God’s eyes. The Lord is no respecter of persons. Women are subordinate to men in the Bible in only 2 areas: marriage and Biblical teaching. The reason is that it is a judgment from the Garden of Eden. Women in the Bible, like Deborah, were prophetesses. Women were leaders and judges of the nation – like Deborah.
At the end of the day all of us, male and female are filthy, sinful wretches who deserve hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity for our continual and frequent sinful rebellion against God. No one has any excuse before The Lord, man or woman. So the current arrangement may seem “sexist” or offensive when it comes to the office of pastor, but its just one of many of the consequences that we are dealing with because of sin. The good news is that there is redemption and free forgiveness when we put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ. This is where we gain true equality:
As believers, we all have equal standing before God. We are forgiven and made heirs of the world in equality. The only question is will you believe and receive it? -B&E
“Whosoever shall call upon the name of The Lord shall be saved.” – Romans 10:13.
How to Get to Heaven
Just wondering if you got permission from the author and publisher before you cropped the author name off of that the book cover graphic you used? Please be aware that altering covers without the permission of the author or publisher is against the law. Or perhaps you could keep the authors name on it and direct people to Amazon to purchase the book? That would’ve been a kindness instead of using the graphic for your own purposes.
porn movie says
I’d have to check with you here. Which isn’t one thing I normally do! I take pleasure in studying a put up that will make individuals think. Additionally, thanks for allowing me to comment!
Shilloh Wall says
Of course women can be preachers, that’s not being disobedient to God, there is nothing wrong with women being pastors or preachers or running church assemblies, men and women can lead, that’s God’s will!
Shilloh Wall says
Jael was already suppossed to kill Sisera, and Barak did not fail he was a manly man, and women can be Pastors, the bible never said that women couldn’t be pastors, you are right about Our Heavenly Father using women but you are wrong about women not being Pastors.
Pastor B23 says
After reading the various posts, I did not notice that anyone took the stance that Deborah is a representation of the Church. In my studies, the Spirit has impressed upon me that the Old Testament sets up examples of spiritual truth found in the New Testament. When I study about Old Testament female leaders, I look for comparisons to the purpose and mission of the church.
The church is a female entity that is a leader and gives instruction. When a believer goes out to spiritual battle we do not go out alone but we go forth with the power strength and representation of the church. The simplest example for me as a pastor is the evangelical greeting- “hello i am Pastor Barry from Still Waters Baptist Church.” I have identified myself and I have reinforced my identity. I believe that is Barak’s position.
Deborah was established, like the church, and lends credibility to Barak’s mission. I do not believe he was afraid to go into battle but knew that Deborah’s presence would be a rally point because it showed he was going out with the approval of God.
Just like Barak believers do not get the glory of victory but the enemy is defeated by the Body of Christ, another strong female and another representation of the church. So the discussion for me is not about whether women should be pastors but about the integrity and representation of the church body.
Why do people argue about what the Word of God says anyways … why do humans question the work of the Lord ,
Nothing add too or taken away .
Pastor B23 says
To answer your question: Proverbs 27:17; Matthew 13:52; Acts 6:4 and 2nd Timothy 2:15. God bless as you grow in wisdom and understanding 🙂
Nancy Payette says
Sounds like a good book.