After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. – Revelation 7:9-10.
As we covered in detail in our article, The Red Moon Rapture – The Biblical Timing of the Rapture, the multitude the Apostle John sees suddenly appear in Heaven, standing before the throne of the Lord Jesus Christ is the Raptured Church. In The Beginning and End Rapture Series, we explained that the Rapture of the church – the supernatural catching up of all born again believers in Jesus Christ, to meet Jesus in the clouds in their glorified bodies and go to Heaven to be with The Lord during the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation, takes place at the opening of the 6th seal of Revelation chapter 6. [B&E: And if you have not yet read the Rapture Series it is strongly recommended]. In the final verses of Revelation Chapter 7, we see the multitude now in Heaven, fulfilling prophecy and receiving the blessings and promises of the eternal Kingdom of Jesus Christ.
Where Else Do You See The Raptured Church In Scripture?
The most popular Rapture timing models all claim that the Rapture takes place at a different time (i.e., Revelation 4, at the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11 or at the end of the Great Tribulation, just as Jesus is returning to Earth to fight the Battle of Armageddon). However one thing is always missing with these explanations – the actual Raptured church. In none of those points in Scripture do we see any description of a sudden catching up of millions upon millions of believers. Yet in Revelation chapter 7, in a momentary pause before the destructive judgments of the Day of The Lord are unleashed, we see the Multitude appear out of nowhere in Heaven. The Apostle John’s surprise at this is not lost on the reader as he uses the phrase “..I beheld, and lo..” All through Scripture every use of this phrase is done to indicate a surprise or revelation of something supernatural. Here are several examples:
- Abraham viewing the supernatural destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah for the first time:
And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace. And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt. – Genesis 19:28-29.
- Jeremiah’s prophetic vision of the entire Earth being destroyed by Divine judgments in the end times:
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger. – Jeremiah 4:23-246.
- When the prophet Ezekiel was supernaturally transported by God to the temple in Jerusalem and able to see the secret pagan rituals taking place in it:
And it came to pass in the sixth year, in the sixth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I sat in mine house, and the elders of Judah sat before me, that the hand of the Lord God fell there upon me. Then I beheld, and lo a likeness as the appearance of fire: from the appearance of his loins even downward, fire; and from his loins even upward, as the appearance of brightness, as the colour of amber. And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. – Ezekiel 8:1-3.
Even in the Book of Revelation we see the phrase used as well:
- When the Apostle John witnesses the Ascension of Jesus Christ into Heaven after the Resurrection:
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. – Revelation 5:5-7.
The Biblical usage is quite clear. And in Revelation 7, the Apostle John again witnesses a supernatural occurrence, as a number of people so great that no one could ever count them, suddenly appear in Heaven out of nowhere, having just escaped the Great Tribulation.
A Prophecy Fulfilled
Though not as popular in end times studies and discussions as Matthew 24, Luke Chapter 21 is a parallel passage where The Lord Jesus Christ described many of the end times events to come to His disciples. He details “wars and rumors of war”, famine, earthquakes, being coming to Earth so frightening that men will have heart failure from what they see and other prophetic warnings. But after going through all of this description, the Lord reassured His disciples that they could escape all of this:
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. – Luke 21:34-36.
The multitude of Revelation 7 are not just escaped out of the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation, they are standing before the throne of Christ.
White Robes and Palms In Their Hands
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
In our article on the Red Moon Rapture, we went into detail on the significance of the white robes worn by the Raptured Church. They are a sign of being fully righteous in Christ – receiving not just a born again spirit, but a glorified, divinely-made body as well. In Revelation 6 at the 5th seal, the souls of the Christian martyrs (their souls – as they are not yet in their glorified bodies) under the altar are told to “wait” a little longer for God to avenge their deaths by starting the Great Tribulation. And they are given their robes just before the opening of the 6th seal. This also shows the timing of the Rapture lining up at the 6th Seal.
But what about the palm fronds that the Multitude are carrying in their hands? What is the meaning of this? Of course Scripture holds the answer. This celebration is the Heavenly fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles as described in the Mosaic law:
Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath. And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the Lord your God seven days. And ye shall keep it a feast unto the Lord seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. – Leviticus 23:39-41.
The greatest amount of offerings were required on this particular Holy Day. It is the time of giving the greatest thanks possible to God. And of course this is precisely what the Multitude is doing as they wave their palm branches singing praises of thanksgiving to Jesus Christ. Also of note, is that this celebration required the people to remain in their tabernacles or booths rejoicing for seven days – a prefiguring of the 7 years the Church will spend in Heaven with The Lord before the Second Coming and Armageddon. On the 8th day following this week, called the “Last Day” or “Great day” the people gathered for a great feast. Jesus Christ spoke out on this day in the book of John to proclaim the Gospel:
Now the Jew’s feast of tabernacles was at hand…. In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) – John 7:2, 37-39.
The Feast of Tabernacles will be a mandatory celebration for all people on Earth during the Millennial reign of Christ. And the Raptured Church will be the first to experience the Holy Week in Heaven during the Great Tribulation.
The Future of The Multitude
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. – Revelation 7:15.
The Raptured Church will serve as priests in the Temple of God that is in Heaven. In ancient Israel, as seen in the Old Testament, the temple service was to be done only by priests. The Levitical priesthood was a figure and foreshadow of the superior divine priesthood established in Christ. This is explained in Hebrews Chapter 7:
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of [Judah]; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. – Hebrews 7:11-17.
The earthly priesthood consisted of men from the tribe of Levi. But Jesus, the High Priest in Heaven to all who believe, was from the tribe of Judah, not Levi. This passage explains that the earthly priesthood was just a shadow and inferior to the true priesthood of Christ.
And thus, those who are born again are “in Christ” and also are made into priests in Heaven:
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. – 1 Peter 2:9-10.
The Apostle John also emphasizes this point in the Book of Revelation:
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. – Revelation 1:6-7.
In the temple in Heaven, the Raptured church will serve as priests under the High Priest, Jesus Christ.
The Church Are First To Receive The Blessings of the New Heaven and Earth
The Raptured Church will dwell in the presence of Christ at all times. And interestingly, they will experience the blessings of those who will live in the New Heaven and Earth described in Revelation Chapters 20-22. This again, is an important Biblical indicator that the Raptured Church will not be on Earth during the Great Tribulation. They are in Heaven experiencing a Divine “preview” of the blessings that come after Armageddon, the Millennium and the final judgment of Satan and evil forever.
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. – Revelation 7:16.
Scripture states that the Multitude will no longer experience physical suffering. And they have no need of light from natural sources because they are now basking in the divine light of Christ. This is the same Light referenced in Genesis 1:3, when God said “let there be light.” This light appeared on Earth before the sun was created. How? Because it is God’s own Divine Light. This is mentioned again in the description of the new, sinless eternal Earth in Revelation 22: “And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.” (Revelation 22:5). Yet the Multitude experiences this Light well before the New Earth is created.
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. – Revelation 7:17.
The Church will also have no more emotional suffering as God will now wipe their final tears from their eyes. This again is another blessing of those who enter the New Heaven and Earth described in the final chapters of the Bible: “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” (Revelation 21:4). But the Raptured church receives these blessings during the time of the Great Tribulation – another clear sign that they are in Heaven with Jesus during the the years that the wrath of God is poured out on the world.
Verse 17 also states that Jesus will lead the Church to living waters – again another preview of the living waters found in the New Heaven and Earth:
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: – Revelation 21:1-3.
Lord willing, this verse-by-verse study has shown the ultimate fate of the Church – to be Raptured supernaturally and suddenly at the opening of the Sixth seal of Revelation Chapter 6, only to be standing before The Lord Jesus Christ in Heaven.
In our next study we will explore the opening of the Seventh Seal in Revelation Chapter 8 and the meaning of the “Silence in Heaven.”
James Fox says
Dear Beginning and End:
You think the great multitude of Rev 7 is the Raptured church. Note it says, “These are they which came out of great tribulation” Rev 7:14. If they came out of it then they must have been in it. I do not think they were in it for 60 seconds and then were taken out of it. The only thing that makes sense to me is they were in it for a significant period of time. They were not raptured at the beginning.
However, I think you may be right that they are the raptured church. But I think you missed some things. I believe that the 6’th trumpet is the Second Advent and the rapture happens at the Second Advent.
12 … the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, Rev. 6:12-13
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven” Mt. 24:29
In both the sun is darkened, the stars fall, and the moon’s light is changed. How often will this happen? Probably only once. If so, Rev 6:12-13 and Mt. 24:29 are the same event.
Most people think Mt 24:31 is the Second Advent. I agree. So the 6’th seal is the Second Advent.
Notice something else interesting:
… there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. Rev. 8:5 The 7’th seal.
… there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. Rev 11:19 The 7’th trumpet.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, …
21 And there fell upon men a great hail Rev. 16:18, 21 The 7’th bowl.
So the 7’th seal, the 7’th trumpet, and the 7’th bowl all have voices, thunderings, lightnings, and an earthquake. The 7’th trumpet and the 7’th bowl also have hail. Is this 3 extremely similar events or 3 descriptions of the same event? Occam’s Razor would say they are the same event. I think this is a clue that God gave us to tell us that the 7’th seal, the 7’th trumpet, and the 7’th bowl are all the same event.
Armageddon is mentioned immediately before the 7’th bowl, Rev. 16:16. So the 7’th bowl should be at approximately the Second Advent.
Note what it says about the 7’th trumpet:
17 … thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 … the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets ….Rev. 11:17-18. The 7’th trumpet
When does Jesus take his power and begin to reign? At the Second Advent. Everybody agrees that the Old Testament prophets are resurrected at the Second Advent. That would seem to be the time when they would get their reward. So the 7’th trumpet is the Second Advent.
Note what it says about the 6’th seal:
For the great day of his wrath is come. Rev 6:17. The 6’th seal.
This sure sounds like Second Advent to me.
excellent retort! Did any one reply to you yet?
James Fox says
You are the only one who responded.
Nephesh roi says
The eschatological discussions are going on under several different headings! That is why it seems no one responded.
In fact B&E and I had a short discussion here:
I have not yet concluded my study on Revelation. However, it is certain that the 6th seal canNOT be the Second Advent!
The seventh seal comprises of seven trumpets and the seventh trumpet comprises of seven bowls, all in sequence! So technically seventh seal is the Seond Advent, yet that Advent does not occur until the seventh trumpet!!!
The clue is in Rev 11:18 – (immediately after the seventh trumpet in verse 15) – where it says clearly, “and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great” came.
This verse clearly shows that the holy prophets, apostles and saints, “both small and great” are all STILL DEAD UNTIL this seventh and last trumpet!!!
This agrees perfectly with Paul’s statement in 1 Cor 15:52, “………… at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable …………”.
James Fox says
You said, “The seventh seal comprises of seven trumpets and the seventh trumpet comprises of seven bowls, all in sequence!” and you agree with me that the 7’th trumpet is the Second Advent. But the 7’th trumpet is followed by the 7 bowls so it is not in sequence. The first bowl is not after the Second Advent.
If the 6’th seal is not the Second Advent then explain why Rev 6 looks exactly like Mt 24:29 and Joel 2:31-32. I believe the latter two are universally recognized to be the Second Advent. In Rev 6 and Mt. 24:29 the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from the sky. In Rev 6 and Joel 2:31 the sun and moon are darkened and a great day is mentioned.
Rev is not in chronological order. Rev 12 has a symbolic description of the birth of Jesus in the middle of the book.
Every commentator I have read says the second harvest in Rev. 14:17-20 is the Second Advent which
does not officially happen until chapter 19.
The official description of the fall of Babylon is chapter 18 but Rev 15:8 says, “A second angel followed and said, ‘Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great….” Rev 16:19 also says Babylon was given the cup of God’s wrath.
Rev is not chronological. Do not be surprised if the 7’th seal follows minutes after the 6’th seal and both are the Second Advent.
Beginning and End says
These 2 points are some of the main reasons that I disagree so strongly with you. As I have explained before, any model that says the seals, trumpets and bowls are the same events is incorrect on its face. They are in sequence, which is why the Lord in His mercy, has gone to such great detail to make this clear. You have no warrant to rearrange the chapters of Revelation as you see fit.
Regarding Revelation 12, you have to distinguish the actual events John witnesses from a “vision”, which in Scripture, is a supernatural demonstration that teaches a principle. When John sees the war in Heaven in Revelation 12, it is NOT a vision. He simply writes “and there was a war in Heaven.” but the woman in Revelation 12 is a vision. This is an important distinction because it is not a future event. John was given a vision in HIS time. The war in Heaven where Satan is cast out, is a future event that is to come. So the vision is not a part of the end times chronology. But the war, which is a real event, is. I hope that makes sense.
Revelation is indeed told in Chronological order. And this will be shown as this series goes through every chapter of the book.
Secondly, you refer to commentaries. While useful, they are not doctrine. It does not matter if 99% of commentaries says that Revelation 14 is the Second Advent. The Bible does NOT SAY THAT. Jesus does not return in Revelation 14. Armageddon does not take place in Revelation 14. The Raptured church (in your post-trib model) is nowhere to be found in Revelation 14. For you to say “this must be the Second Advent” is just adding to Scripture.
There are clear explanations for what is taking place in Revelation 14 and Revelation 15. But it found by comparing Scripture with Scripture, not imposing a model and rearranging chapters when Scripture gives us absolutely no warrant to do that. In no other book of Scripture do we ever just rearrange chapters, so why do it with Revelation?
Nephesh roi says
Yes, James Fox, let us study further and analyse.
“But the 7′th trumpet is followed by the 7 bowls so it is not in sequence.” — James Fox.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 seals are opened sequentially. Nowhere do we find that the 6th seal is opened before the 5th seal. Then 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 trumpets are sounded sequentially. Nowhere do we find that the 6th trumpet is sounded before the 5th trump. Then 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 bowls are poured sequentially. Nowhere do we find that the 6th bowl is poured before the 5th bowl!
This is the best proof that all these are in correct sequence.
“The first bowl is not after the Second Advent.” — James Fox.
The evidences show clearly that ALL the 7 bowls are poured AFTER the Second Advent!!!
Revelation shows that after the seventh trumpet is sounded (in Rev 11:15) then we see in Rev 14:14 (chapters 12 and 13 are insets; so the time flow continues from ch 11 to ch 14) the Son of Man coming in the clouds just as Jesus has prophesied and making the harvest.
The bowls of God’s anger happens after this incident!
Besides, Rev 14:10 says exactly that the bowls will be poured IN THE PRESENCE OF Jesus and His holy angels!!!
“he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.” (Rev 14:10).
Also after the 7 bowls are poured out in chapter 16 (again ch 17 is an inset; so the time flow of ch 16 continues in ch 18), all of God’s prophets, apostles and saints are addressed as if they are already alive (ie, resurrected in the great harvest):
“Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!” (Rev 18:20)
So to conclude, not only the first bowl but all the bowls are poured AFTER the Second Advent!!!
“If the 6′th seal is not the Second Advent then explain why Rev 6 looks exactly like Mt 24:29 and Joel 2:31-32.” — James Fox.
First of all, in Mat 24:29 Jesus was not referring to any sequential seals or trumpets or bowls. He was giving a general time flow. But in Revelation, the descriptions are in more detail.
I will give an analogy:
In Mat 24:29 Jesus says ’30’ comes after ’29’. Is this incorrect? Not at all! This is correct.
But in Revelation, it says that ’30’ comes after ‘29.10’, ‘29.20’, ‘29.30’ …………….. and ‘29.90’. Is this incorrect? Not at all! This is correct.
The only difference is, in the second instance MORE detail is given than in the first instance. So there is no contradiction between the two instances!
“which does not officially happen until chapter 19.” — James Fox.
Let us not measure the time span in Revelation chapterwise which could be misleading! We use chapter reference ONLY for communication purpose; to show others where we refer to.
In Revelation, we must measure the time span in relation to the seal or trumpet or bowl.
So we see clearly that Christ comes on the clouds and makes the great harvest on the earth after the seventh trumpet is sounded irrespective of the chapter numbers!
James Fox says
“If the 6′th seal is not the Second Advent then explain why Rev 6 looks exactly like Mt 24:29 and Joel 2:31-32.”
I believe that Mt 24:29 and Joel 2:31-32 are universally recognized as the second advent.
:You did not explain why this is not Rev 6.
Nephesh roi says
“:You did not explain why this is not Rev 6.” — James Fox.
I thought I explained that already in my above post. I copy paste the same again here:
If this explanation did not dispel your doubt, then that proves I did not understand your question well.
Would you elaborate a little on your question?
Beginning and End says
Hi Nephesh Roi,
As I have asked many, does it matter to you that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians about 40 years before Revelation was written by John? So in essence, Paul was writing about the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation (which you claim is “the last trump” of 1 Corinthians 15) decades before John actually received the Revelation of the 7 trumpets. How would Paul know this?
Nephesh roi says
“How would Paul know this?” — B&E.
I had given you a short answer here (point #2):
The answer is very simple.
Jesus prophesied what will happen in Matthew chapter 24 without reading the book of Revelation. Paul says the same Jesus taught him everything directly. So Jesus taught Paul about the last trumpet.
Paul never meditated and thought out these things on his own.
Besides, Peter witnessed that prophesy does not come by human thoughts. But Holy Spirit reveals it to the saints of God (2 Pet 1:21).
I find it strange that you, being an evangelist think that Paul, an Apostle of the great Lord, needs the book of Revelation to know things about the Second Coming!
“For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Gal 1:12).
That is Apostle Paul telling you!!
Beginning and End says
Hi Nephesh Roi,
This is where you and I differ GREATLY in our Biblical interpretation. NOWHERE in the verse you quote does Paul say he was told everything John was shown. Nowhere does it say Jesus taught Him about the seven trumpet judgments. You are adding that to the text. If we are to infer from the phrase “last trump”, that is supposed to mean “the seventh trumpet of the book of Revelation” then why would Paul not explain more about it? Why would Paul just reference the 7th trumpet and keep the rest of the information to himself? All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for DOCTRINE. By your reasoning, Paul kept back a great deal of information. By your reasonin, the 7th trumpet is when the Rapture, Second Coming, Armageddon and just about every big end time event takes place. Yet all Paul connects the 7th trumpet to is the translation. See the problem here? It’s all SPECULATION. Why? Because Paul did not say in your passage what he was taught by Christ. What we can know for sure is what he actually wrote down in his epistles. And nowhere does he say the 7th trumpet is the Second Coming or Armageddon. Which would mean inherently that all Jesus taught Paul about this was “at the 7th trumpet you will be raptured” with no further information on the topic whatsoever. This just makes no sense and is again, completely speculative and thus not authoritative. You’re just adding things to the text that are not there. You are making up what Paul learned and not sticking to what he actually wrote down. I just do not approach the Bible this way at all.
Nephesh roi says
“NOWHERE in the verse you quote does Paul say he was told everything John was shown.” — B&E.
But then Paul was not repeating whatever details were given in Revelation. He just gave one basic fact; that of the seventh and the last trumpet!
“Nowhere does it say Jesus taught Him about the seven trumpet judgments.” — B&E.
That is what you think!
But Jesus has already taught His discilples about the Trumpet:
“And He will send His angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.” (Mat 24:31)
So there it is in plain language from the mouth of Jesus Himself long before the book of Revelation was written!!! The apostles and Paul already knew that there was going to be Trumpet sound from angels of God (and NOT from the feast of Trumpets as you claim).
Yes, Paul knows very clearly about this trumpet:
“Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel’s voice, and with God’s TRUMPET. And the dead in Christ will rise again first.” (1 Thessa 4:16)
Please note Paul is referring to God’s trumpet in the hands of angels. He is not referring to the trumpet of the feast of Trumpets!!
Paul knew about the other trumpets and that is exactly why he talks about the LAST trumpet in 1 Cor 15:52!!!
“then why would Paul not explain more about it? Why would Paul just reference the 7th trumpet and keep the rest of the information to himself?” — B&E.
That is a valid question.
The answer is, Paul was not giving a lecture on how the world will end! He was teaching on the Resurrection of the dead in that entire chapter and he added only relevant information about the trumpet.
The full description of the eschatology was reserved for John by God!
Usually when we explain one topic fully, we use only relevant information from another related topic that adds to the current topic. Otherwise it will become too long and confusing.
Ultimately it is God who decides who will write what.
Let me ask you a similar question:
Prophet Joel never read the book of Revelation that was written hundreds of years later. Yet he talks about Sun darkening and moon reddening before the day of the Lord!
How could Joel write that without reading the book of Revelation?
The 7 trumpets happens at the end of the millennium. Keyword there is the mention of abyss and you will find the word abyss in Rev. 20.
Seal 7 is the millennium. a thousand year of peace on earth and half hour silence in heaven.
Seal 6 is the Second Advent.
The 144,000 is the Bride, who are virgins and have kept themselves undefiled.
The Multitudes, The Resurrected Dead in Christ of long ago and Raptured Still Alive in Christ at the Second Advent, and the Great Tribulation Saints, are the Wedding Guests in their White Wedding Robes.
Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 39 happens at armageddon.
Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38 happens at the end of millennium
Back to our Drawing Board : )
Beginning and End says
James makes many thoughtful, well-written comments and I enjoy reading them, even if I am in strong disagreement with his eschatology. I have not responded to all of them however. As time permits, I will try to address more comments. God bless.
James Fox says
Dear Beginning and End:
What do you dislike about my eschatology? Do you dislike that I think the 6’th seal is the second advent? Most think that the 6’th seal is before the middle of the tribulation. They think the trumpets and bowls are after the middle of the tribulation and I agree with that. Therefore they think the 6’th seal is before the middle of the tribulation because it is listed before the trumpets and bowls.
I disagree. Here is why. The antichrist declares himself to be God at the middle of the tribulation. Before the middle he does not claim to be God. Therefore the massive christian martyrdom happens after the middle of the tribulation. The 5’th seal is about Christian martyrs. This can not be before the middle of the tribulation. If it was only a few martyrs it would not be worth mentioning. Thus I think it is a large number of martyrs. This will take time so I think this is near the end of the tribulation.
Note they are told to “wait a little longer” until the number of their fellow martyrs is completed. If it is indeed only a little longer then their cries are indeed near the end of the tribulation.
The 6’th seal comes next. It must be very near the end.
In Rev 6:12-13 and Mt. 24:29 the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from the sky. They sure look like the same event. Mt 24:29 is “immediately after the distress of those days.” It is the Second Advent.
Also note Rev 6:17 “for the GREAT DAY of their wrath has come.” Compare with “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the GREAT and dreadful DAY of the Lord.” Joel 2:31. It is the same thing as Rev 6. Joel 2:32 talks about the “deliverance” and salvation of those in Jerusalem. Everyone agrees that the Jews are saved at the Second Advent. Everyone I have read agrees that Joel 2:31-32 is the Second Advent and it sure seems to be the same thing as Rev 6.
Beginning and End says
I did not say I “dislike” your eschatology. I said I disagree with it. Please know that although I disagree, I do not find these issues to be foundational to the faith and so I don’t think that your position is “heresy.” We are all just working our way to figure out the end times timeline and trying our best to rightly divide Scripture. God bless.
James Fox says
You said, “Please know that although I disagree, I do not find these issues to be foundational to the faith and so I don’t think that your position is “heresy.” We are all just working our way to figure out the end times timeline and trying our best to rightly divide Scripture. God bless.”
Your Christianity is showing! What a perfect answer. Let us be friends and agree to disagree. God bless you!
Beginning and End says
Ha ha. Amen and God bless.
Nephesh roi says
Very well said, James. I have the same feeling for B&E. God bless.
Do you find it strange that John did not recognize this group?
I would think John would recognize “the Church or Bride”
These… have washed their robes. Works?
“And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. “(Rev. 7:13, 14)
“For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.” (Acts 2:29, 30)
Beginning and End says
Thanks for your comments. Let’s look at the verse in question where the Apostle John sees the multitude:
If you notice, John described the multitude accurately. It’s the angel who questions John as to whether he knows their origin. And how would John know that? This group literally just appeared before his eyes in Heaven. He is seeing the future – which was unknown to him – unfold right before his eyes. So it would make sense that he has to be informed as to their specific identity.
As for washing their robes – verse 14 says they washed their robes “…in the blood of the Lamb.” It is metaphorical language for being saved by the blood of Christ.
I hope that clarifies the points in the article. God bless. -B&E
they which came out of great tribulation,
This group are in and came out of the Great Tribulation and most likely have been killed.
3 groups of people on Earth
1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: …
The church of God is not in the Great tribulation, so these are those(Jew and Gentile) who have heard the 144,000 preach and have repented and are now saved from the lake of fire
Beginning and End says
Thanks for your comments.
There is nothing in this passage that says the multitude were martyrs. In fact at the 5th seal, just a few verses prior, John readily identifies the martyrs under the altar. This group he gives no such description to. So there is no warrant to conclude they were all killed. Furthermore, the tense of the “out of” in the verse is the aorist tense. The same tense is used in the Septuagint to describe Lot’s escape from Sodom:
As we know, Lot did not actually experience the fire and brimstone rained on Sodom. But he did indeed come “out of” it. He escaped just in time.
The same tense is also used in Revelation 3:10:
This passage is definitively talking about the Church of Philadelphia not experiencing the Great Tribulation. And the same phrase is used consistently to indicate an escape rather than a partial experience/suffering.
If you have a counter-interpretation of the text, please feel free to offer it. God bless you abundantly. -B&E
James Fox says
There are 2 Greek words that are translated “from” – apo and ek. “A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament” by Dana and Mantey p101 states, “Apo may include the idea expressed in ek, but its usual significance is from the edge of, while ek has the idea from within.”
Got that, apo means from the edge of while ek means from within. I once used my Greek concordance to look up the first 20 occurances of ek in either Matthew or Mark. Evey one without exception meant from within or from the middle of.
However this is not a hard and fast rule. I have seen examples where apo also means from within and I have seen examples where ek does not mean from within. However this rule expressed by Dana and Mantey is usually true but not true in every instance.
I once looked at a Greek grammar in a book store. They had a discussion of apo and ek. They said apo meant from the edge of while ek meant from the middle of. They had a cartoon to express the difference. A man was standing on the sidewalk looking at a house. Flames were coming out of the roof. Another man was running out the front door. The man standing on the sidewalk was apo the house – on the edge of the property. The man running out the front door was coming ek the house – from inside.
You cite the exmple, “Lot out of [ek] the midst of the overthrow, when the Lord overthrew those cities in which Lot dwelt. – Genesis 19:29.” Out of the midst means out of the middle.
As you noted, Rev 3:10 says the church will be “keep thee from [ tereo ek] the hour of temptation,” If ek has its usual meaning – from the middle of – then the church will be in the middle of the hour of temptation. They will not be raptured before the temptation starts.
Where in scriptures that it said the 144,000 will preach the gospel during the great tribulation? This is another example of eisegesis. Another overstretch interpretation to support the pre-tribulation rapture view; a second rapture for those who had been left behind from the first rapture.
John Whiting says
In Christ ye also trusted after ye heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, in Whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
Sealed they are and their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period
Understand that the pre-rapture is only for those who love the Lord.
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
50% will be turned away from the Wedding Supper
Many Christian do not “know” the Lord Jesus and will not be raptured but will go through the first 3 and half years of the tribulation.
Then a resurrection.
Then the Great tribulation.
Rev 22-7 Blessed is he that keeps the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22-19 Cursed is any one who takes away from the words of this book.
B&E your love for this book shows God Bless.
Question Rev 10-7 gnawing at me since l believe that the mystery is Gods relatioship to the Church saying it is finished.
Could this be where some see the rapture.
Beginning and End says
Thank you for the kind words. May God receive all the glory that this article was a blessing to you.
As for Revelation 10:7 –
The mystery of God being referenced is salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. This was a mystery in the Old Testament that was only revealed in type and shadow along with Messianic prophecy. And that mystery still exists today for Israel corporately:
The blindness is to the preaching of Christ throughout the entire Old Testament by the prophets. But this blindness has a set time of expiration. The “fulness of the Gentiles” is the completion and removal of the Church at the Rapture. At this point, The Lord returns His face back to Israel and His fulfillment of salvation for the believing remnant. This is the primary purpose of the 144,000, 2 witnesses and angelic beings who preach the Gospel during the Great Tribulation. At the 7th trumpet, the remnant will fully believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and will be taken to safe haven to be protected from the Antichrist for the remainder of the Great Tribulation.
I hope that makes sense. We are going to continue our chapter by chapter study this month. So Lord willing, we will get to Revelation chapter 10 for a detailed study by November. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask. God bless you abundantly. -B&E
B&E I have been blessed by every article from your site testing all with KJV.
Praying for great faith in all of Gods chosen gonna be needed in these last days.
Challenged God 25 years ago that if your real I’m gonna give you a chance to speak to me I’m gonna open this bible it opened to the 88 PSALM as I read my heart melted within me I was broken the old Leon was nailed to the cross on my front porch by myself.
Prayer warrior, prison minster, Sunday school teacher God has taken me a long way, praying for the gift of song they won’t allow me in the choir so I make Melody in my heart.
Blessings keep up the good work for his Glory.
Your brother in Christ Leon.
All mysteries are usually solved and understood at the end of the story. God’s plan of judgement for the Church, Israel, and other nations does not end at the second coming of Jesus Christ and prior to the start of the Millennium Kingdom, it ends at the Great White Throne Judgement.
So I guess we should consider understanding the trumpet judgement happening at the end of the millennium.
Rev. 8:1, the half hour silence in heaven is the millennium. Onward up to Rev. 11 is the description of event that will happen at the end of the millennium; First Four Trumpet Judgement unleashed; Two Witnesses to prophesy again and caused all the plagues to rain on the nations; Satan was released from prison/abyss to deceive the nations and kill the Two Witnesses; Gog and Magog Invasion led by Satan himself, the 8th King who belong/had been part of the Seven Kings/Heads of the ancient past empires, who once was, now is not, and will come out of the abyss, and will finally be destroyed in the end.
Rev. 12 onward and up to Rev. 20 is the beginning of another narrative of the entire prophetic end time line viewed in a different angle and not necessarily chronological in order.
The Fist fruits of the Lamb are the 1,44.000, some of whom were witnessed as the Church called “Faithful”, against which the gates of hell will not prevail, moving in the Spirit led by St. Peter himself ( revealing the truth of the term “One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church)incidentally to Rom 8:19 , the Hope indicating the second coming of Christ & by Them are the Multitudes of Rev. 7 redeemed unto God for did not Jesus say unto the Apostles of the manner “Greater works ye shall do” to many more fruits (as He lets them do it, by Him).
To this it is interesting to know that the Prophecy of St. Malachi, regarding the last Pope (Petrus Romanus) “who will tend to the flock” , which Zionists by the prophets of Babylon have utterly corrupted the understanding ,unaware of the Petrus Romanus leading the Church in the Spirit as revealed.
However there is the prophecy of St. Francis of Assisi who stated “In those days Jesus Christ will send a Pastor, a destroyer who by cunning will cause many to Error & Death”. even as the Church led by his name sake gathering in his own popularity, disregarding the very warning by earlier Popes of the danger of applying Modernism to Faith , for Faith sans time , which modernism was specifically pointed out as Evolution(The stretching of the mind through intellectualism unto its Error by the leavens) ’cause in the spirit it denies the existence of god, irrespective of what the mouth may utter, even strange words like “Theistic Evolution” a convenient insertion of the name god, as if a puppet & it so happens even before he is set to address the “BEAST(& the harlot that rides it ,now been trodden upon to the Prophecy) & The FALSE PROPHET” this Sept., apleasing them by “cunningly” compromising the basic faith of the Church, against Abortion unto the very Marker – Sodom.
Lyle E Cooper says
We really must consider the CONTEXT of a scripture. In John’s chronology, he has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the last half of the week, which will have the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of. John is not talking about those days.
The great tribulation the church is raptured from are DAYS JUST LIKE TODAY! In many parts of the world, people are being systematically put to death just because and only because they are Christian. “Tribulation” could not get any greater for them: they cannot be killed twice. If you will research, you will find John used these two words, “great tribulation” in one of the letters to one of the churches, and for the timing could not possibly be referring to the last half of the 70th week.
He has the timing of the rapture down, and has correctly identified this great crowd, too large to number, as the raptured church.
Many people find a “coming” at the 6th seal earthquake, but it is not there. Jesus comes for His church just before the great earthquake at the 6th seal, and takes the church back to heaven. Is it possible Jesus is seen at the rapture coming? Perhaps He will be. But if we read closely, God the Father is seated on his throne and they IMAGINE His face and know the DAY has come and are scared out of their wits. Jesus will not come again at this point until chapter 19, after the 70th week has finished.
Many will not be raptured as the Bride. They say they we born again but never “knew” Jesus. The door will be closed for them. They will go through the first half of the tribulation. They have salvation, meaning they will not suffer the wrath of God nor be thrown into the lake of fire, but they were not Bride ready for the rapture. John did not know these people either, so they were not in a love relationship with Jesus.
mike c says
if their is a pre-trib rapture where do children fall into place?
The woman with stars on her helmet under the “BIRD FOOT” standing atop the Freemasonic Capitol Dome denotes the many alters figured in the freemasonic Israeli supreme court( In the absence of the temple , out of which is to come the prophesied Abomination of desolation) -” Vishnu” transformed into a female , the spirit of Intimidation & Seduction, reveals the origin of Sodom,, that rules the world & based on this same ‘Intimidation & Seduction” – the prophesied Sorcery that deceives the whole world, comes the prosecution of the Glorious Woman & Her crown of stars in Rev.( who eventually be integral to the multitudes of Rev 7, them of Rom.8:19)) until the transgression of the gentiles come to its full.
The Prophecy of “The sun will not l give light & the moon covered with blood’ talks not to a Physical sun/moon sign but of the persecution of the Woman & her stars of Rev 12., to be not deceived by the prophets of Babylon , even the Rapture theories, all but unto the Complacency towards the Apostolic Faith.
In speaking about the great multitude of Revelation chapter 7.
Your saying that the great multitude that John sees standing before the throne of God and Christ Jesus is the raptured church.
If I may ask,as to how do you get the great multitude as being the raptured church?
If you will but notice that in Revelation 7:14 the great multitude came out of great tribulation.
Notice the words ( came out of ) this stands to mean,they went through the great tribulation.
In other words, the great multitude are those that who haved died during the great tribulation or have gone through the tribulation.
You know,to have came out of something, first a person has to have gone through to have came out of.
Let’s for say that you drive your car into one end of a tunnel, then you came out of the other end.
Therefore for the great multitude to came out of great tribulation. Means they would haved gone through the great tribulation to have came out of great tribulation?
The great multitude are those in Revelation 6:9-11, that are at the throne of God.
You know it would be alot better if people would let God do the interpretation and the deciphering of Revelation. In the which God has already done all the interpretation and deciphering throughout the book of Revelation.
All is required of us is to have an ear to hear what the Spirit of God saith. throughout the book of Revelation.
A 12 year old can understand it as simply as you have understood the text “came out”. It can never be understood as “taken out”. This is the problem of having a preconceived view of the timing of the rapture when studying scriptures. They overstretch a certain text of scriptures in order to fit on their preconceived views. This method is what we called eisegesis, not exegesis.
Leon Colbert says
How do you see Rev.8:1 silence as the Millennium, I disagree my opinion which carries little weight.
Other times of Gods silence as in Noah after God shut up Noah and his preaching in the ark seven days before his wrath is released and again at Jerico that was marched around seven times in silence and Gods Wrath released.
Since God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow I see this as a 7 something hours days weeks or years before his wrath is released.
I agree that some events in Rev questions chronological order.
Sheila Hyatt says
My sister (blood relative) and I have been going round and round about this passage and others regarding the rapture and/or the first resurrection. In chapter 6 of Rev when the Martyrs under the altar ask how long Lord, he replies, he gave each of them a “white robe” and said rest a little while longer, until both their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. I say those in chapter 7 of Rev are the martyrs, and they also have “white robes” just like those mar yrs under the altar. In Matthew Chapter 24, Jesus gives us a picture of the 1st resurrection (not rapture) Matt. 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days….. 31 and He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” Also 1 Thess 4:16 The dead in Christ will rise first, and then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air… So, in Rev. 19:4-5 …this is the first resurrection. and 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection, Over such the second death has no power , but they shall be priests of God and f Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years. So to put all this together, the church is not under wrath, but are persecuted for their faith and receive their white robes. As far as the rapture, since the dead in Christ will rise before those who are still alive, this has to be at the first resurrection at the end of the Tribulation. I use to agree with my sister that chapter 7 of Rev referred to the rapture, but now I say these are the rest of those who will be martyred for their faith as it says in Rev. 6.
Anything that happens after the 5th seal is not Paul’s rapture. the fifth seal saints were killed in a specific manner, Rev 20: 4 the first resurrection consists only of tribulation saints, not every Christian has died of beheading. The first resurrection does not include every Christian in history otherwise it would have said so, just like it said for the second.
In Rev 20: 4 John saw people sitting on thrones and judgement was given unto them. Their is only one group of people that will have authority in the millennium, and that is the Church. They were there before the tribulation saints were resurrected. This can’t be Paul’s rapture.
Also Matthew 24, is not Paul’s rapture. This is the gathering of the Jews as stated in Isaiah 11: 10-12
Sheila Hyatt says
There are only two resurrections, (well three if you count Jesus resurrection) but only two, the first is all those who died in Christ, and includes those who are still alive and are in Christ. The second is everyone else who are not saved and who will stand before the White Throne Judgment. Paul doesn’t have a rapture narrative. There is no rapture!!!
It does not say ALL who died in Christ,it goes into detail of who are apart of the first resurrection just like it goes into detail of who are apart of the second resurrection.the saints in the first resurrection are the ones who were under the altar Rev 6 :9-11. 1 thess. 4: 13- 18 Paul talks about all who are alive in christ caught up with all who are dead in christ.
Rev 20: 4 talks about all the saints that were beheaded in the tribulation.
Sheila Hyatt says
Additionally, in chapter 15 their is another multitude in Heaven (singing the song of Moses) these are the 144,000 also martyred for their faith. All these in heaven from chapter 7 and chapter 15 are the souls of the saints who have been martyred for their faith during the tribulation. Their bodies are resurrected at the end of the tribulation at the first resurrection with the sound of the Trumpet of God. There is no rapture unless you want to call the first resurrection the rapture. There are only two resurrections, the saints and the wicked.
The current times are a test to mankind whether they follow the Lord and obey His Scriptures or not. God said that many will deny Him and His Word and there will be people who will say God’s name only, but do not obey the Lord. Too many people polluted by the world with money, material things, physical appearance, fame, boastful, egotistical, cold, occupied in clubbing, vacations, drinking, Twitter, Facebook, CandyCrush games, and more. God sees the evil going on in the world and currently we are at 4th Seal Phase in Revelation in 2016 approaching near 5th Seal where saints ask for justice, but their justice will happen later after the two witnesses get taken into heaven by God after giving warnings to the AntiGod/Beast, False Prophet and wicked people on Earth. God is going to take righteous people or the ordinary people that side with the Lord to be united with Him in 6th Seal. The Lord before He instructs His Angels in Heaven to do 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of God’s Wrath God tells the Angels in Heaven not to harm the earth, sea, and trees of God’s wrath or punishment until sealing the followers of God have God’s Mark onto their foreheads. God takes these people and gathers them to His Throne where they worship, thanks, and praise the Lord. The Lord wipes away their pain, suffering, and they shall not hunger or thirst and all. The Lord is their provider forever; they are united with the Lord forever. The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls of God’s Wrath are directed towards Satan’s followers and not to God’s followers. God’s followers are united with the Lord and are safe and happy with the Lord. The two witnesses and saints will get justice after the two witnesses get taken into heaven after they are slain and bodies are left on the street for 3 days before God takes them. The saints, two witnesses, angels in heaven, people already in heaven and the people taken to the Lord during tribulation are part of God’s Army that will fight at End Battle with the Lord when God appears on a white horse with a sword and a crown coming from the clouds.
The Great Multitude in Revelation 7:9-17 cannot be the Church, because this group fails to meet a fundamental criterion for Church rapture. An important criterion for Church rapture is that it MUST include the dead in Christ (i.e all those who died in Christ over the centuries from the very first century until the rapture)..According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, the dead in Christ will rise first, followed by the transformation of the living believers. Then both groups will meet Christ in the air. So, the raptured Church will consist of BOTH the dead in Christ (all those who have died since over the centuries) and the living Christians who are alive at the time of rapture. The Great Multitude in Revelation 7 does NOT include the resurrected dead in Christ. This multitude is made up of only those believers who are alive on earth during the tribulation period. Therefore, this great multitude cannot be the raptured Church. Period. It does not include the resurrected dead in Christ. It only includes those believers who are alive during the tribulation. The scripture nowhere teaches a partial rapture.
Sheila Hyatt says
I’m born again since 1987. I became totally persuaded to believe in the rapture, then it was the pre-trib rapture. Years later, my sister pointed out that chapter 7 was the rapture, right after the 1444,000 were sealed, which made sense to me, at the time, if you believe there is a rapture. I don’t anymore. I believe during the time of the tribulation many saints will be martyred for their faith and believe it has already begun. I believe the multitude in chapter that are in heaven are martyrs. All you need to do is go back to chapter 6 where the saints under the alter that were martyred for their faith ask, “how long Lord until you avenge…. and the Lord tells them to rest and wait until the rest of their brethren have been killed just as they were.” So, logically, if the (so called) rapture hasn’t happened yet, I believe it is actually the first resurrection and not the rapture at all. “For the dead in Christ will rise first, and then those who are still alive and remain, shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air…” At some point they return with the Lord for the final (second) resurrection and the judgment. Chapter 20 speaks bout the first resurrection, but it’s not clear to me that it actually takes place in chapter 20, but probably before that, but not sure where? But the dead in Christ are only resurrected once, and it most definitely says this is theffirst resurrection, and their are only two.
Sheila Hyatt says
Sheila Hyatt, you said your born again, if I may ask, what was wrong the first time,?
Sheila Hyatt says
Jesus said” “You must be born again in order to see the Kingdom of Heaven.” He’s referring to a spiritual birth, wherein I was reborn when by faith I received forgiveness and new life in Jesus Name.
List all names of those in the Bible that said they were born again
Sheila Hyatt says
John 3:1 [ You Must Be Born Again ] Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
1 Peter 1:3 [ Born Again to a Living Hope ] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
John that is a great question, to list all those in the bible that said they have been born again.
Sheila Hyatt says
It’s a stupid question. Jesus said “you must be born again” meaning born of His Holy Spirit. Peter talked about and paul and others as well. After Pentecost thousand were saved “born again” by the power of the Holy Spirit granting them faith to believe Jesus words and his death and resurrection, his claims of deity, (one with the Father) repented and by faith became born again and heirs with Christ and eligible for eternal life because of Jesus and their faith to believe and receive Him. So, no there are not people listed in the bible who have said “I’m born again” but I say, I’m born again” because I am, and because Jesus said you must be born again in order to see the Kingdom of Heaven. Born once, die twice, born twice, die once.
Stop adding to scripture. None not one said anything as to they were born again Jesus is the first born with new body, tent, temple Not even Paul said anything as he was born again
Sheila Hyatt says
I’m not adding to scripture. I posted all the scriptures that speak of being born again as the necessity for eternal life. Jesus said it! not me. Either you believe him or you don’t. I do. I am born again. Are you?
Please explain what you think being born again means to you Sheila ?
I agree you must be born again to enter the Kingdom, but you are giving your thoughts and definitions of born again as if it was fact. Do you think Paul was born again. He never said he was.
Nicodemus Believed Jesus was from God, was he born again. Nope
Sheila Hyatt says
What’s your point? I would have guess that Nichodemus was saved (born again) and I know Paul is!
If Nicodemus was born again, Jesus would not of questioned his knowledge and understanding of the Kingdom. If Paul would be born again, surly he would of wrote and taught born again in several letters
Sheila Hyatt says
Have you been born again. If you were, you would not be asking these questions. The bible doesn’t say in so many words that Nichodemus was ever saved after talking with Jesus that night. But he and Joseph of Aremethia were the two “disciples” followers of Jesus, who took Jesus down from the cross and placed him in Joseph’s tomb. We can only assume that at some point he became a believer and received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. As for Paul, of course he was saved, how else would he go through what he went through to get the gospel to everyone in the gentile nation that he could, in spite of imprisonments, beatings, near death many times, etc. He has the “on the Road to Damascus” come to Jesus meeting then.
Sheila Hyatt says
Nicodemus more than likely became a believer. It takes being born again in order to see and understand the things of the Spirit. He obviously loved Jesus, he and Joseph of Aremethia removed Jesus from the cross and buried him in Joseph’s tomb. Paul was saved for certain or He would never have been able without the Holy Spirit residing within him to transform from a Jewish zealot to a Christian spreading the Gospel to the gentiles in obedience to Jesus, and suffered and died for His faith and obedience.
Sheila Hyatt says
Paul speaking to those who have been born again, including himself”
3 but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
Ryan, where are you getting the group is born again and now Paul is born again. Show the scripture that backs up your statement. There is none. And Paul never, ever told us in his letters that he was born again.
Please tell me what you mean by “born again ”
Where in the bible does someone say they are born again.
Sheila Hyatt says
ohn 3New King James Version (NKJV)
The New Birth
3 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.
Sheila Hyatt says
Yes, but show all those in the bible that state they have/are born again. List their names and verses
Sheila Hyatt says
All of the apostles, many many believeers, jews and gentiles. “born again” means when by the power of the Holy Spirit you are able to believe by faith that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior who died for yours and my sins and rose from the dead and gives eternal life to anyone who will believe this Gospel truth. You must be born again in order to see with spiritual eyes the kingdom of God.
Show me in their letters where they wrote that they were born again.
You will not find one person in the entire bible
God has five different types of kingdoms, three that are physical and two that are physical and more than physical. (Spiritual) They are in ascending order the mineral kingdom, the plant kingdom, the animal kingdom, the human kingdom and the Kingdom of God.
What kingdom are you in now?
What kingdom do you want to be in?
Jesus the Son of God
Jesus the Son of Man
Was in two kingdoms at the same time.
Sheila Hyatt says
John – I’m not going to prove this to you. You read the bible prayerfully, especially the Book of Acts. You won’t find the words born again, but you will find that many have been born again according to the description of what it means to be born again according to Jesus in John 3.
Prove it to yourself by scripture only
It seem you don’t know what Born Again means, yet you use the phrase. Why is that?
Donald John says
I believe the multitude of saints praising Jehovah Elohim in heaven in Revelation consists largely of aborted fetuses sacrificed on planned parenthood tables.
Few find life. Matthew 7:13-14.
Come, Lord Jesus, Come. Avenge us.
Scripture tells us who they are. Those who thought they were part of the “caught up ones” , they claim all of the church would be raptured, but as we see, a Great group was not. This group will see the first 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s trouble and will be in the New World Order and will be killed. After this no one will be saved for the Wrath of God comes. Those that rejected the Blood of the Lamb…
Let the scripture tell you who they are
“These are they which came out of great tribulation” Rev 7:14
And they were beheaded. Martyred
What do you think Born Again means?
What scripture defines it?
Who in the bible said they were born again?
Better yet, of all people whose life changed, Paul
What does he say about being born again?
“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins”
– Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373
Yes there is a called out group.
Call it whatever you like.
Believe it or not but scripture tells of a gathering of those who have a love affair with Jesus.
Mike DeWitt says
Trying to fit the Church into the Book of Revelation is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. We will never make sense of this because we were not meant to, because it does not pertain to the Church. It is strictly Jewish prophesy. The church is separate from these events entirely.
Please define “Church”